Open mike 19/11/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:44 am, November 19th, 2013 - 190 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step right up to the mike …

190 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2013”

  1. having looked thru the herald offerings this morn..

    ..(and finding only two pieces worth linking to..a tv show heads-up..and a non-update on the brown-poontang-inquiry..(with the latter not really deserving inclusion..)

    ..and then thinking about their (rumoured) plans to go behind a paywall..

    ..ya hafta laff..

    ..and say..’go on..!..i dare you..!’…

    ..phillip ure..

    • chris73 1.1

      Well you’d think the inquiry would be fairly cut and dried so shouldn’t be taking this long although now they have to find out why pants down Brown was so evasive about the trip to Hong Kong and who traveled with him (although lets face it I think we all know it was)

      • Paul 1.1.1

        ‘Pants down’ brown.
        Whale Oil insults already.
        Can’t you guys discuss without resorting to insults? Is it possible to reason and not rely on puerile comments?

        • phillip ure 1.1.1.1

          does brown fall to his knees each and every morning..

          ..and say:..

          ..’thank you lord..for rob ford’..?

          ..(if he doesn’t..he should..eh..?..)

          (and..i dunno..but comparing brown with ford..

          ..i can’t help feeling we have been cheated..

          ..eh..?..)

          ..phillip ure..

        • phillip ure 1.1.1.2

          @ paul..

          ..my first comment/reaction when the brown poontang-scandal broke..

          ..was to go ‘meh..!..so what..?..it doesn’t really matter/doesn’t effect how he does his job’..

          ..and i stand by that..

          ..but the ensuing career-wrecking..(bte-bye..john palino..we hardly knew yea..!)..

          ..of central/peripheral-characters/commentators..(tamihere:.’unlike my cat..i’ll be back!’..)

          .is such a rich minefield of humour..

          ..to insist commenters (from both left and right) not take the piss..

          ..is too big an ask..eh..?

          ..and anyway..i prefer ‘down-trou-brown’..

          ..as a moniker..

          ..phillip ure..

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.2.1

            (ahem..!..make ‘minefield’..’mine’..

            ..tho’..on second thoughts..)

            phillip ure..

            • greywarbler 1.1.1.2.1.1

              phillip
              Do you like the colour of my icon – you are trying to take mine. I would like a change anyway.

              • @ greywarbler..

                ..i am still in a state of mourning for the loss of the previous one(s)..

                (..why..?..why..?..did they have to go..?..)

                ..and am considering using the depiction of me as a younger man..

                (..created by chris knox..as he said he remembered me from then..)

                ..on the logo @ whoar..

                ..whaddayareckon..?

                (and i am still unsure as to whether he was taking the piss a bit..

                ..or not..

                ..whaddayareckon..?..)

                ..phillip ure..

                • greywarbler

                  phillip
                  I think it’s a winner and with the imprimatur (I’m not sure what that means but it sounds good) of Chris Knox – well I’m bowled over.

                  edit Just got closed by remote server. Here comes the clown again!

                • greywarbler

                  phillip
                  I think it’s a winner and with the imprimatur (I’m not sure what that means but it sounds good) of Chris Knox – well I’m bowled over.

                  edit Just got Connection closed by remote server. Here comes the clown again!
                  And again. Will try agin and leave and come back later. Probably the message will have flashed round the world 100 times by then.

                  • lprent

                    Not my system at present. Akismet (the anti-spam engine) appears to be having issues. Keeps being sluggish and winds up putting the comments into moderation for a later check.

    • Naturesong 1.2

      There’s quite a lot going on in the herald today.

      Shilling for property developers lobby
      Giving Joyce a megaphone while undermining the legitimacy of those who criticise the Air NZ selldown
      Editorial explicitly pushing the government’s lie re: Air NZ selldown timing
      Giving English a megaphone and supporting his confused argument that changes to LVR ratio are not the cause of first home buyers in NZ suddenly dropping by 50%
      We’ve moved on from that distracting human rights stuff and now back reporting on things that actually matter

      Theres a few other stories about things like more police abuse but no context drawn regarding police culture (because these things happen in a vacuum).
      Third anniversary of pike river disaster, but no mention that the Underground Coal Mining Safety Bill was a members bill presented by Damien O’Connor.
      Most will assume the government has actually been doing its job.

      • Tracey 1.2.1

        Shills for developers or just people who care about all NZers?
        http://nzinitiative.org.nz/About+Us/Overview.html

        No suggestion by the NZ Initiative that developers should have 10 years personal liability for the homes they build like builders and architects through?

        AND who is NZ Initiative?

        Well, on my browser the tab says “NZ The New Zealand Business Roundtable”

        “What is The New Zealand Initiative…
        The New Zealand Initiative is a business group with a difference. We are a think tank that is a membership organisation; we are an association of business leaders that is also a research institute. And we believe that these are not contradictions.

        Maybe Adam Smith would be surprised to hear about The New Zealand Initiative. The founder of modern economics was not just a brilliant theorist but also a good observer of the world around him, and his views of business people were less than flattering.

        In his The Wealth of Nations, published in 1776, Smith was scathing: “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

        If that sounds familiar to us today, then it is because many people still assume that business people only come together to conspire against the public in the pursuit of their own company’s interests. And indeed, according to Smith, they should only concern themselves with making money to let the market’s “invisible hand” work.

        For Smith, the common good resulted from businesses pursuing their own agendas without concerning themselves with the implications for society. With respect, the members of The New Zealand Initiative disagree. The members of the Initiative believe that, as business leaders, they have to play a role in public life and contribute to public debates.

        We are committed to developing policies that work for all New Zealanders, and we believe that promoting such policies will benefit all of our members as a matter of fact. But we are certainly an Initiative that usually prefers Adam Smith’s invisible hand to government’s visible fist.

        Most of all, though, we believe that our goals and values are similar – if not identical – to what most New Zealanders want to see achieved:

        A good education system.
        Affordable housing.
        an open economy.
        A free and democratic society.
        The protection of our natural resources and heritage.
        Sound public finances.
        A stable currency.

        These goals are not business goals. They are not left-wing or right-wing goals. These are public policy objectives that most, if not all, New Zealanders would agree with.

        The challenge in public policy is often not to define what you want to achieve. The real challenge is finding ways of achieving widely shared goals.”

        And who are these like-minded people wanting to research and implement for th ebenefit of us all?

        “Air New Zealand
        AWF group
        AWF Group
        ANZ e
        ANZ National Bank
        ASB website
        SB Bank Limited
        BNZ website
        Bank of New Zealand
        Bell Gully website
        Bell Gully
        BP website
        BP Oil New Zealand Ltd
        Chorus website
        Chorus
        Cooper and company website
        Cooper and Company Deloitte website
        Deloitte
        Deutsche Bank website
        Deutsche Bank Ernst Young website
        Ernst & Young First NZ Capital website
        First NZ Capital Fletcher and Building website
        Fletcher Building Fonterra website
        Fonterra
        Foodstuffs Auckland website
        Foodstuffs Auckland Ltd Forsyth bar
        Forsyth Barr Freightways websiteFreightways Gallagher website
        Gallagher Group Ltd Gibbs website
        Gibbs Technologies
        Halls Transport website
        Halls Transport Infinity wesbite
        Infinity Investment Group KPMG website 1
        KPMG Lumley website
        Lumley General Insurance McConnell Group website
        McConnell Group
        Microsoft website
        Microsoft New Zealand PWC website
        PwC New Zealand Samson website
        Samson Corporation Southern Cross Healthcare website
        Southern Cross Healthcare Tappended Holdings Limited website
        Tappenden Holdings Ltd
        Tax Management NZ website
        Tax Management NZ Telecom website
        Telecom The Warehouse Group website
        The Warehouse Group Vero website
        Vero Vodafone website
        Vodafone
        Z Energy website
        Z Energy”

    • David H 1.3

      I Dunno Phil I just had a look and found this Gem on the Pike River Disaster.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11157949
      And this
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11158015

      But yeah unless you count the laugh about the Qatari Stadium Roof then there’s just pap and dross there.
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11159381

      • phillip ure 1.3.1

        david h..yr first two links are from the 16th..

        ..and the herald posted the vagina story after i had already linked to it..

        (..still ‘always first with the best’..eh..?..that whoar..)

        ..so i stand by my paywall-jeer/taunt…

        ..and it amazes me each and every day..when i am spoiled for choice for quality material to link to..

        ..that the herald/stuff seemingly can only find..in the main..

        ..such utter worthless/mindless/uneducated..crap..

        ..eh..?

        ..so..paywall away.!…dear hearts..paywall away..!

        .it will only hasten the end of yr times as an energy-sucking behemoth..

        ..producing so much of so little worth..

        ..eh..?

        ..phillip ure..

  2. Paul 2

    “Rape apologists do nothing to inform and educate public so I applaud the stand made by many to get those mouths metaphorically taped. Besides, they’ve all had their damaging turns for far too long. And we need to do more taping of mouths.”

    (Marama Davidson)

    • Paul 2.1

      The quote above was used as part of this Giovanni Tiso article.
      Here is the full article.

      http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2013/11/the-business-of-free-speech.html

      “Freedom of speech isn’t freedom from the consequences of speech. Freedom of speech is not a protection against people telling you that your views are hateful. Freedom of speech doesn’t oblige other people or organizations to support you in your privileged position as a broadcaster, or journalist, or blogger. Freedom of speech isn’t a guarantee of permanent employment when the thing you are selling is your opinion nor does freedom of speech compel the public to buy said opinion from you. ”

      Some of these words are particularly pertinent to folk like photonz and gatsby who bleat on about freedom of speech on this site.

      • karol 2.1.1

        Ah, yes. thanks for the link. The “freedom of speech” line is such a distortion of what is required in a democracy and fair society.

        I recall about a decade back, I largely only heard such a line in support of everything right wing and/or socially conservative, from US people – it’s a line used in the US where they align the Jeffersonian “free market of ideas” with free market capitalism.

        The US ideal has stripped out the European ideas of “egalité” and “fraternité” that accompany freedom of speech in Europe. ie “freedom of speech” bringing responsibilities and collective alignment with others.

        Basically, this elevating of an “freedom of speech” of the individual ethos above all else has been imported here along with neoliberalism.

        PS: excellent post from Giovanni.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.2

      Finally a NZ politician who is worthy of a book of quotes ^^^

  3. vto 3

    The third anniversary of Pike River today.

    Pike River – 29 men killed by the ethos of the National Party, the Act Party and the neoliberal approach. The high noon of neoliberalism. All the evidence in the world of the glaring faults of the individualism, greed is good, everything can be priced, people act solely for self-interest, model. The philosophy has failed.

    RIP.

    The Paparoa Tombstone.

  4. Te Reo Putake 4

    The Qataris may be slave drivers, but they’re pretty progressive in other areas:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/18/qatar-accidental-vagina-stadium-al-wakrah-world-cup-stadium

  5. Not a PS Staffer 5

    Auckland’s newly elected Coincillors and Mayor need to take control of the Ports board. That board and its management have lost the plot.

    “Ports of Auckland has hired top lawyer Mai Chen to help it in a row with the Auckland Council over measures to reclaim more of the Waitemata Harbour.
    Ports chief executive Tony Gibson and Ms Chen met Mayor Len Brown in September to try to avoid starting legal action against their owner. Another meeting is set for today.”
    WTF!

    Dear Councillors, we gave you a mandate to manage.
    Get on with it.
    Dump Richard Pearson as chair of POAL immediately.

    • tc 5.1

      Dump the entire NACT chosen board starting with Gibson/Pearson….but can they ?

      This is a great example of rortneys deliberately dysfunctional supershity biting its so called masters hand rather than getting permission/direction and buy in like a well behaved subsidary would.

    • Murray Olsen 5.2

      Yep, get rid of them. Find a way. That’s what we have a mayor and council for.

  6. Huginn 6

    A very interesting article about G4S from the Financial Times

    Financial Times,
    G4S: the inside story

    By Andrew Hill and Gill Plimmer

    Damaging scandals are raising questions on how the third-largest listed private sector employer runs its empire and the future of outsourcing vital public services

    Read the full article at: http://on.ft.com/1eVUiIW

    Sent from my iPad

  7. Good on you Graham McCready!
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    Housing New Zealand Faces $6,000 Compensation Claim from Banks Private Prosecutor.
    76-year Old Granny forced to clean off toxic mould

    When a 76-year old Granny moved into her Strathmore Miramar unit in January 2010 it was unfit for habitation with toxic mould in the kitchen cupboards, dirty floors and bathroom and unsecured electrical cables in the ceiling that flapped when a strong wind blew.

    Housing NZ refused to do any repairs leaving her to clean up dangerous toxic mould and do other maintenance work. She developed a respiratory illness as a result. The work took her three weeks hard labour before it was liveable. Draft stopping was never fitted resulting in the wind rattling the doors and windows.

    The unit is halfway up steep street with a bus stop at the top and bottom leaving this disabled pensioner to push her walker up and down the hill with groceries.

    She applied four times for a transfer supported by medical certificates. Each time HNZ falsely said she had not responded to their request for confirmation of her housing needs request and closed the file.

    Graham Mc Cready, Advocate for NZPPS Ltd has taken on her case. HNZ has 14-days to do all the repairs or the matter will be referred to Tenancy Tribunal for a work order. A claim for $6,000 in compensation will be filed with the Tribunal in any event.

    Graham Mc Cready
    Advocate for The Tenant

    • karol 7.1

      Disgraceful. So this is what HNZ has become! Goood on Mc Cready.

      • phillip ure 7.1.1

        you are doing good work there..mr mcready..

        phillip ure..

      • bad12 7.1.2

        Yes true, good to see Graham Mac standing up for those bullied by the system, while i understand ‘why’ people move into what is obviously ‘unsuitable’ accommodation and then try and transfer into a more suitable position later because of the severely rationed number of State Houses,(and we still await Labour’s lifting of the ‘vows’ of silence over whether or not they are going to seriously address this issue, and believe me i am seriously starting to doubt that), there is the danger as appears to be the case here of becoming ‘stuck’,

        i know all this for a fact because after a six month wait after gaining approval to be housed i took the first place HousingNZ offered me but have adapted my life to the parts of the property i can use and would have to say that despite the challenges this poses i am financially, physically and psychologically in a far better position after a few years in the one place,

        The inferior state of many of the States Housing portfolio is the result of i believe 2 imperatives which i believe is the result of an ‘unspoken consensus’ between Labour and National on the future direction of the States roll as a major provider of housing to the poorest members of both the working and beneficiary communities,

        The Neo-liberal recipe was i believe applied to the housing of ‘the poor’ some time back by both Labour and National and as it now stands (with the allotment of State Housing shifting to WINZ), with the focus becoming more ‘private’ providers being given access to more and more of the States housing stock nothing Labour have recently said on the issue would suggest that ‘RED Labour’ under David Cunliffe are about to alter that view…

        • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2.1

          The Neo-liberal recipe was i believe applied to the housing of ‘the poor’ some time back by both Labour and National and as it now stands (with the allotment of State Housing shifting to WINZ), with the focus becoming more ‘private’ providers being given access to more and more of the States housing stock…

          Everything done so that a few people can have a government guaranteed income. This has been done by both Labour and National – National being far worse than Labour as the sales of state assets shows.

        • Rogue Trooper 7.1.2.2

          make your bed, then lie in it and relax. We are only here for a relatively short time, may as well sleep in. (Too much sun is harmful these days 😀 )

    • David H 7.2

      This is just sick. It shouldn’t be 6 grand it should be 16 grand with 10k for pain and suffering. FFS I know those hill in Strathmore and I used to walk them as a meter reader for the power company back in the late 70’s and early 80’s. And i was in my early 20’s then, and it knackered me so a 73 year old woman using a walking frame would be absolutely shattered after a walk up those hills. Nice to see we really look after our old age Pensioners. Now wait for Winston to see it.

  8. wyndham 8

    A must read post by Selwyn Manning over at The Daily Blog. Probably the best summation of Key and his bunch of sycophants that I’ve read to date.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/11/18/horror-regimes-identity-crises-and-self-serving-sycophancy/

    • veutoviper 8.1

      Totally agree, wyndham. Manning’s post is a Must Read, and a very well thoughtout summation of Key and Co. One of his best posts ever imo.

    • Anne 8.2

      Marvellous summary. Thanks wyndham.

      In a nutshell compare the following Labour PMs to John Key:

      1) Norman Kirk. He lead the charge against the French nuclear testing at Moruroa Atoll on behalf of New Zealand and the Pacific Islands. He was applauded around the world for his courage. He paid the ultimate price. His health deteriorated rapidly (yes, there are questions to ponder about that) and he died well before his time.

      2) David Lange. He picked up the anti-nuclear baton and ran with it all the way to Oxford University. In the process he trumped Margaret Thatcher and she never forgave him. He was harassed and intimidated for his brand of courage. His health also deteriorated (from natural causes but stress would have played a part) and he also died before his time.

      3) Helen Clark. Stood up to the Western allied countries (the Coalition of the Willing) and refused to send fighting troops into Iraq and Afghanistan. She was personally ridiculed and derided by her enemies. She lives to fight another war against international poverty.

      • Tiger Mountain 8.2.1

        + 1

        • Arfamo 8.2.1.1

          “She lives to fight another war against international poverty.”

          How’s she doing with that?
          What’s her salary?

      • phillip ure 8.2.2

        @ anne..

        ..kirk pulled us out of vietnam..key wanted to be a spear-carrier for bush..and go to invade iraq…

        ..lange..for all his verbal skills/stated political beliefs.. went along with the rightwing-revolution..

        ..key is the final act of the/that rightwing revolution..(as he/english admitted..there is nothing else left for the elites to glom onto..all the cherries have been picked..it’s bones-picking-over time..)

        ..3)..helen clark refused to take us to war in traq..but what about afghanistan..?

        ..and sorry..but i get a case of the irony-‘bends’..at any depiction of clark as some sorta joan of arc/st helen..in the fight against poverty..

        ..given that as prime minister of new zealand..for nine long years..

        ..clark not only turned her back on the countries’ most in need..

        ..she led the chorus of demonising/marginalising of those most in need..

        ..and sewed the seeds/prepared the ground for the pogroms against those poorest enacted by key/bennett/this tory govt..

        ..(just saying..!..)

        ..phillip ure..

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.2.1

          lange..for all his verbal skills/stated political beliefs.. went along with the rightwing-revolution..

          that’s what happens when people don’t know enough about economics and, in fact,just don’t have enough general knowledge which, I believe, is what this article was truly about. Specialisation causes people to have a narrow view of life and thus can easily be misled.

          • Rogue Trooper 8.2.2.1.1

            Ya don’t say!

          • Murray Olsen 8.2.2.1.2

            Nah, Lange chose to be ignorant about economics in the same way that Key chooses to not read unpleasant documents. Kirk was the last decent Labour PM who actually tried to change a few things and build a better society. Helen was satisfied to slow the advance of neoliberalism and apply a few patches.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.2.2.1.2.1

              Nah, Lange chose to be ignorant about economics in the same way that Key chooses to not read unpleasant documents.

              And thus left it to the specialists while keeping to his own specialisation little realising that an MP can’t be a specialist and needs to have that broad education.

      • Ennui 8.2.3

        Anne, these acts by Labour PMs stand in stark contrast to National PMs. I find Key insidious, his actions seem to me to indicate that he lives in a “present paradigm” that fits the world view of a hegemonists ally. His view of hegemony consists corporate power structures, financial control and exploitation enabled by a power alliance based on the US military industrial complex. I doubt he sees himself as a “Kiwi”.

        Muldoon was interesting: I got the feeling he was a Kiwi primarily and a grudging ally to anybody, US included. That however did not stop his government from becoming apologists for Indonesias US approved conquest of East Timor. I gave Talboys (Foreign Affairs for Muldoon) the acid questions as a student. His responses indicated blind pragmatism bordering on willful arrogance, and a blindness to any human rights issues. It was the Cold War era, and the US was doing all sorts of dirty stuff in Chile and Central America. Nationals silence indicated complicit alignment.

        Attitude to abuse of human rights is probably the defining difference between National and Labour administrations. Both play for the same team but Labour seems to be more aware that there are some rules that should be observed.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.2.3.1

          Nationals silence indicated complicit alignment.

          National, being the authoritarians that they are, always align to the most powerful. Watch as they transfer their arse kissing to China as the US hegemony declines.

        • Rogue Trooper 8.2.3.2

          F*ck Brian Talboys! (despite the instruction To Love your neighbour , these Tories are a plague).

        • Anne 8.2.3.3

          I gave Talboys (Foreign Affairs for Muldoon) the acid questions as a student.

          Hi Ennui,
          Don’t know whether you will pick up on my response at this late juncture, but you remind me of a similar attempt by me to put the acid question to Muldoon over the vexed matter of the expanding nuclear arms race. It was at a public meeting and he responded with such dignity and respect to the question I was left floundering. The old bastard knew I was an innocent abroad and out of my depth. Guess he wasn’t all bad. He could have skinned me alive.

  9. Northshoreguynz 9

    Love the way the NZH puts Armstong’s CV at the end of his pieces. As if to try to give some credibility where there obviously is none.

  10. Sanctuary 10

    Germany to adopt women only quotas for all company boards:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/18/germany-vote-more-women-in-boardroom

    So in context, Labour’s quota idea is actually just a variation on what leading social democracies in advanced countries across Europe are all doing. Here is a thought – how about that dipshit Patrick Gower report on THAT (*gasp* IDEAS from Johnny foreigner???!!!!) instead of TV News doing its usual totally myopic and provincial news take on local crime, repetitive horse race politics, excesive amounts of sport and the weather?

    The money quote for me though comes from another article I have read on this at

    http://www.thenextwomen.com/2013/09/10/frauenquote-biggest-gender-uprising-germany-bra-burning

    “…Incidentally, it is not about rights, it is about recognition of chance, and that is where you see the current debate of Frauenquote differ from bra burning and pill prescriptions of our sisters four decades ago…”

    This is the best one sentence soundbite defense of quotas I have yet read.

    • greywarbler 10.1

      I thought this is part of the trend of business to avoid taking part ion real business with their money and just putting it in ‘soft’ investments and parking it in tax havens. This affects NZ citizens – a nz company shifting its base to the Channel Islands to limit taxation.

      From Patrick Smellie
      PGC heads for life in a tax haven
      For South Islanders, the combination of the names Pyne and Gould still conjures memories of first settler families and the Christchurch squatocracy.
      How odd then to see the names transported back to the Old Country, or very close by, with the announcement yesterday that Pyne Gould Corp will de-list from the NZX, seek a London Stock Exchange listing and set up digs in the Channel Islands, in Guernsey.

      Now, calling Guernsey a tax haven is a ticklish business. Quite recently, UK Prime Minister David Cameron went to some lengths to defend the islands from that dodgy-sounding tag. However, there’s no doubt the Channel Islands offer a tax environment that suits those seeking to minimise their obligations to other countries’ exchequers.

      The company’s press statement coyly alludes to the advantageous tax settings as part of its reasoning, although makes more of the fact that its new location is intended to make it more visible to the European investors it increasingly wishes to deal with.
      No word as yet as to whether three-quarters owner of PGC, George Kerr, plans to set up house on Guernsey.

      This is an example of a business that has made its money in hard work dealing with physical entities serving farmers in New Aealand. Then diversified to some interests overseas. And now split up further and is taking much of its putea outside of NZ and just managing investments, looking for easy earnings.
      From Wikipedia on Christchurch as it used to be.
      PGG Wrightson, New Zealand’s leading agribusiness, is based in Christchurch. Its local roots go back to Pyne Gould Guinness, an old stock and station agency serving the South Island. That firm helped take deer farming techniques abroad. PGG Wrightson’s overseas diversification includes dairy farming in Uruguay

    • greywarbler 10.2

      I thought this is part of the trend of business to avoid taking part ion real business with their money and just putting it in ‘soft’ investments and parking it in tax havens. This affects NZ citizens – a nz company shifting its base to the Channel Islands to limit taxation.

      From Patrick Smellie
      PGC heads for life in a tax haven
      For South Islanders, the combination of the names Pyne and Gould still conjures memories of first settler families and the Christchurch squatocracy.
      How odd then to see the names transported back to the Old Country, or very close by, with the announcement yesterday that Pyne Gould Corp will de-list from the NZX, seek a London Stock Exchange listing and set up digs in the Channel Islands, in Guernsey.

      Now, calling Guernsey a tax haven is a ticklish business. Quite recently, UK Prime Minister David Cameron went to some lengths to defend the islands from that dodgy-sounding tag. However, there’s no doubt the Channel Islands offer a tax environment that suits those seeking to minimise their obligations to other countries’ exchequers.

      The company’s press statement coyly alludes to the advantageous tax settings as part of its reasoning, although makes more of the fact that its new location is intended to make it more visible to the European investors it increasingly wishes to deal with.
      No word as yet as to whether three-quarters owner of PGC, George Kerr, plans to set up house on Guernsey.

      This is an example of a business that has made its money in hard work dealing with physical entities serving farmers in New Aealand. Then diversified to some interests overseas. And now split up further and is taking much of its putea outside of NZ and just managing investments, looking for easy earnings.
      From Wikipedia on Christchurch as it used to be.
      PGG Wrightson, New Zealand’s leading agribusiness, is based in Christchurch. Its local roots go back to Pyne Gould Guinness, an old stock and station agency serving the South Island. That firm helped take deer farming techniques abroad. PGG Wrightson’s overseas diversification includes dairy farming in Uruguay

    • RedBaronCV 10.3

      Perhaps someone could point out that as a lot of things have been male dominated for the last how? many centuries the women are going to have a turn at the 80:20 model for the same number of centures ahead. They should think themselves lucky the proposals are so modest .

  11. amirite 11

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/11/19/why-i-think-john-key-might-win-2014-election/

    Good article by Bomber. I think he has a point, and I’ve witnessed a witch hunt on him on Twitter. What surprises me the most if their desire to shut different opinions. The infighting and the vitriol on minute differences of opinion do not constitute a unified front against the all-reaching right wing in the media. And there, the battle may be lost.

    • Arfamo 11.1

      Yep, I agree. I read that earlier from the link on this site, and although I think Bomber’s a bit of a legend in his own lunchbox I reckon he’s right on the button here.

    • Rosie 11.2

      OMG! Unbelievable! Bomber complains of a lack of solidarity:

      “Maybe it’s the death of unionism or maybe it’s the impact of consumer-culture individualism, but solidarity and the finding of common ground on the left has been bludgeoned to death by the desire to burn heretics”

      Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!!.

      This is the same guy who wrote a neurotic, bilious attack of a piece months back against “Wellington” for supposedly receiving a bigger share of the infrastructure dollar than Auckland per capita (and he posted this shortly before work started on that freaking great big tunnel under the harbour).

      He used one study to demonstrate his point, that many discredited. I had never read anything quite so nutty and ill informed. I tried to reason with him and said his approach wasn’t helping and that by attacking his friends he was creating division and not helping the left towards unity. He simply gave petulant replies.

      (No sorry, I haven’t got the time to trawl through the site and find the article and link it here but a few readers here were aware of it)

      To think that JK may win because he feels personally aggrieved by criticism is just bizarre. He is not the embodiment of the left.

      Ya’ know. I had high hopes for that site when it first went up and in the months after, but I noticed cracks appearing. I kept giving it chances and giving him the benefit of the doubt. After all, he can convey a message with humour, which appeals to me. His heart is in the right place too, but boy o boy, after that nut out about Wellington I gave up entirely.

      • Arfamo 11.2.1

        Bomber’s biggest fan is Bomber and unfortunately his biggest fan doesn’t realise Bomber has an ego problem.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.2.2

        I had high hopes for that site when it first went up and in the months after, but I noticed cracks appearing.

        It’s pretty much going the same way as Red Alert.

      • Ad 11.2.3

        Bomber could not be more wrong.

        Labour Party membership has gone through the roof. Cunliffe has united and continues to unite the Labour party further and further.

        Cunliffe is also clear that while Labour may be a ‘broad church”, he is aiming to bring in once again all those who didn’t have the heart or inclination to vote who would most benefit from a change of government.

        As for the marches on the weekend, Bomber will have to admit that women hold up the great majority of the activist progressives and he should be man enough to admit that he ain’t the player he might like to be.

        If he doesn’t like this he should pop onto the Mana list and try his luck.
        See if people follow when he dares to lead.

    • Colonial Viper 11.3

      @amirite

      The political Left can’t focus on an agreed and near term set of goals and priorities for longer than 5 minutes.

      We don’t care to manage political risk and timing because we know that we are in the right and we are confident that everyone will see that.

      Each individual activist group’s own agenda is clearly the most important agenda on the table.

      Progressives pretend to represent the interests of the vast majority, yet that same vast majority won’t vote for us – clearly because the vast majority are ignorant/stupid/bamboozled/retrograde.

      And as Bomber says: always watch out for traitors amongst our midst. They are everywhere, the ones who aren’t economically radical enough, who aren’t socially liberal enough, who enjoy their privilege that little bit too much to be trusted.

      • Rogue Trooper 11.3.1

        Yup

      • Ad 11.3.2

        Well I see activist shoots everywhere.

        I’m not a fan of over-coherence – at least not in the current politics.

        I view Key as so strong, and his government so consistently popular, that progressives need to attack from everywhere (as well as have a leader who can match him in the House. Which we thankfully now have).

        New Zealand still has a small-c conservative element of the “passionless poeple” who are rarely aroused sufficient to change things hard.

        It’s from the mico-movements that activists arise that are prepared to volunteer their time and money.

        After the long slow burnout from the 2006 campaigns, and Goff and Shearer, the older ones need replacing so that they can be put to pasture and just have their asses tapped for donations at the right time.

    • QoT 11.4

      witch hunt

      🙄

  12. amirite 12

    He has his many faults but I think he’s hardly a Whaleoil of the left, like some tweeters (twits?) seem to think.

    • TheContrarian 12.1

      He is very much a Cam Slater of the left – they are both whiney, dishonest and convinced they are the sole voice of reason for their politics. Both are nasty hypocrites convinced of their own superiority and brook no criticism. If Martyn is having a moan about people being mean to him he should take a long look in the mirror first.

    • Tracey 12.2

      That’s a compliment, yes?

      Does Bomber have a nice wealthy prickly hong kong lawyer helping him?

    • TheContrarian 12.3

      He seems to think I am somehow affiliated with the Green Party. Which I ain’t and I have tried to tell him that but it won’t make it through moderation. I am guessing it ruins the narrative.

      • Rogue Trooper 12.3.1

        and the Rogue?…(careful now, you might stomp on my roses) 😉

      • QoT 12.3.2

        Bomber logic, TC. You hate him, ergo you are a Green supporter, probably from Wellington, because the only reason anyone can have to disagree with Bomber is that they’re a Green supporter from Wellington.

        On the plus side, eventually someone’s going to make some sweet Emerald Stormtrooper t-shirts, and then you can wear one just to be contrary.

        • TheContrarian 12.3.2.1

          I don’t hate anyone – I find particularly galling though because he is a dishonest wanker who claims the moral high ground and makes me feel awful that someone might my left-wing POV’s as some how in the same political spectrum as him.

          • Rogue Trooper 12.3.2.1.1

            ‘perceive’

          • TheContrarian 12.3.2.1.2

            I meant

            “someone might think my left-wing POV’s as some how in the same political spectrum as his”

            • Rogue Trooper 12.3.2.1.2.1

              no mistaking here, yet I am greatful for what Bomber has exposed. He has done some mahi. (how’s The Contrarian blog subscriptions coming along…) 😀

              • TheContrarian

                Gave that up over a year ago. Was a nice idea but I failed at it.

                • Te Reo Putake

                  For what its worth, TC, I think you came out of that exchange looking better than Bomber. At least you fessed up and retained some dignity. Bomber, on the other hand, spent a long time abusing someone (by name, rather than by their moniker), about something it turns out they didn’t do. Then,when he found out he hadn’t identified the target correctly, nor even got his intimidation by naming right by using the correct real life name, he couldn’t find the grace to put his hand up himself.

                  I’m a firm believer in class analysis. Bomber ain’t got none.

                  • TheContrarian

                    I fessed up long ago – if you look at the timestamps on the Wikipedia talk page I said months ago that it was me and not the other Ace McWicked who is a friend of mine and the moniker ‘Ace McWicked’ came out of a drunk conversation we had way back in 2002 or so. Bomber knew this I should point out.

                    He has made various claims about me now that I cannot defend as I am moderated when I try to.

                    But to point out here:

                    1. I never tried to impersonate Ace McWicked from The Egonomist. He is an old friend of mine and when I heard ages ago that Bomber had accused him of my actions I fronted immediately. Bomber knows this too.

                    2. I am not a Green party member

                    3. I am not a Labour member

                    4. I have always been honest – Bomber is a lying shitbag.

        • Ad 12.3.2.2

          Is an Emerald Stormtrooper like a Wild Green? What are they?

  13. greywarbler 13

    I thought this is part of the trend of business to avoid taking part ion real business with their money and just putting it in ‘soft’ investments and parking it in tax havens. This affects NZ citizens – a nz company shifting its base to the Channel Islands to limit taxation.

    From Patrick Smellie
    PGC heads for life in a tax haven
    For South Islanders, the combination of the names Pyne and Gould still conjures memories of first settler families and the Christchurch squatocracy.
    How odd then to see the names transported back to the Old Country, or very close by, with the announcement yesterday that Pyne Gould Corp will de-list from the NZX, seek a London Stock Exchange listing and set up digs in the Channel Islands, in Guernsey.

    Now, calling Guernsey a tax haven is a ticklish business. Quite recently, UK Prime Minister David Cameron went to some lengths to defend the islands from that dodgy-sounding tag. However, there’s no doubt the Channel Islands offer a tax environment that suits those seeking to minimise their obligations to other countries’ exchequers.

    The company’s press statement coyly alludes to the advantageous tax settings as part of its reasoning, although makes more of the fact that its new location is intended to make it more visible to the European investors it increasingly wishes to deal with.
    No word as yet as to whether three-quarters owner of PGC, George Kerr, plans to set up house on Guernsey.

    This is an example of a business that has made its money in hard work dealing with physical entities serving farmers in New Aealand. Then diversified to some interests overseas. And now split up further and is taking much of its putea outside of NZ and just managing investments, looking for easy earnings.
    From Wikipedia on Christchurch as it used to be.
    PGG Wrightson, New Zealand’s leading agribusiness, is based in Christchurch. Its local roots go back to Pyne Gould Guinness, an old stock and station agency serving the South Island. That firm helped take deer farming techniques abroad. PGG Wrightson’s overseas diversification includes dairy farming in Uruguay

    • Colonial Viper 13.1

      I suppose a whole lot of their farming clients will now register their businesses in Guernsey as well.

  14. aerobubble 14

    Super bug lands in NZ. Now if only we had a unnecessary compliance regime that placed undesirables into harms way. Sending the sick, disabled, mentally ill to doctors surgeries when they did not need to be there, or at the wrong time. And then think about the Doctors who are seeing many more patients many needing little or no extra help from them.

    Why does MSD impose three monthly Doctors visits and not allow patients to renew at any time within the three months when they just happen to be at their surgery for medical assistance.

  15. Tiger Mountain 15

    Suggested song of the day for Pike River anniversary.
    “29 Diamonds”–Bernie Griffen and the Grifters

    • Te Reo Putake 15.1

      Good call, TM. I hope people will take a moment to reflect and remember at 3.44, the time of the first explosion.

      • Rosie 15.1.1

        Thanks TRP for providing the time. I will reflect in silence at that time.

        And yes, acknowledgements to Bad12 and vto below re Labour’s plan to compensate the families of the victims. It’s hard to know what the lowest level the Nat govt could possibly sink to after all that has happened over the last five years, but their choice to not compensate the miner’s families must count as one of the lowest.

        • vto 15.1.1.1

          Especially against a background of compensation of $1.7 billion paid to South Canterbury Finance investors when their money-lending company failed.

          The starkness in contrast is blinding like nothing before.

    • bad12 15.2

      Thumbs up to Labour leader David Cunliffe quoted in today’s National Party NZ Herald as saying a Government He leads will pay the compensation to the families of the Pike River 29 as ordered by the Court,

      i have posted criticism of His position befor where He has been highly critical of Slippery the Prime Ministers mean spirited stingy attitude to the payment of this compensation but has refused to say whether His Government would pay the compensation,

      David Cunliffe went further in saying ‘His’ Government would go after the shareholders and directors of Pike River Coal to recover the money,

      My view is rather than chase them as individuals a Government of the left should have a contingency fund specially for such disasters as Pike River where compensation ordered by a Court or tribunal will not be paid by those who owe it,

      Such a fund should be administered by ACC and the ‘class’ of people usually found to be directors and shareholders of companies should pay levies into such a fund which in reality would be much like the fund set up for the victims of crime…

      • vto 15.2.1

        Yes just saw that http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9416264/Labour-would-pay-full-Pike-River-compo

        Putting aside the Pike River situation for just a very brief moment – this is painting a pretty strong picture of a Labour leader prepared to take action and stand up to bad practices. It is refreshing to see. Taking it directly to Key – full frontal assault. Keep it up.

        In comparison, and in the same article, there is some dribble from Minister for Labour Simon Bridges which is woeful, unable to be understood, and full of lies and bullshit. What a useless piece of dribble he is. Pathetic.

        • Naturesong 15.2.1.1

          “The companies’ shareholders and directors have two choices. One is the easy way, the other is the hard way.”

          As prime minister he would use the authority of the office, including perhaps a private dinner with the chairs of the relevant companies “where they see good sense and decide to take something back to their boards or a range of other tools at the prime minister’s disposal”

          Thats the difference right there.

          Key has shown time and again he will bend over backwards, or just get bent over when he sits down with corporates and business people.

          David C has backbone, is ready and willing to stand up for New Zealanders, and doesn’t mind administering a swift kick up the arse to those that need to correct their behaviour.

          edit: Bridges sounds like he’s taking credit for Damien O’Connors Underground Coal Mining Safety Bill;

          “We’ve taken on board everything that the royal commission has said, and 16 hard-hitting recommendations that now we’ve, practically speaking, implemented in full.”

      • Rogue Trooper 15.2.2

        sigh. This.

      • RedBaronCV 15.2.3

        Good on him and the Greens for supporting them.
        One would think that even a smidgeon of that right wing self interest might suggest that voluntary payout rather than head to head conflict with the next government might be a realistic option. particularly any copany with a “drill baby drill
        agenda”

  16. greywarbler 16

    My comment took so long to get threough that I pressed submit again thinking it would make something happen but then nothing showed up on the comments list. Anyway I won’t post any more today – I’ve filled up too much space already.

    • BM 16.1

      You’re probably finding the page isn’t updating and you’re looking at the cached version.

      If you can’t see your post hit f5 on your key board and then see if it shows up.

  17. On the anniversary of the death of 29 miners at Pike River Mine – least we forget?

    Remember this?

    (I received hard-copies of “Murder at Pike River Mine”, by mail from author Jacob Cohen, with an accompanying letter dated January 30 2011, because he regarded myself, Vince Siemer, and Grace Haden as ‘leading NZ “whistleblowers” ‘.

    There have been a number of us who have helped to spread the word on this matter. )

    http://mistymountain.info/sites/default/files/users/Dan/pdf/Murder%20at%20Pike%20River%20Mine.pdf

    ‘Whistle-blowing’ author of “Murder at Pike River Mine”, Jacob Cohen, has written a work with extremely disturbing claims.

    In this document he shares remarkable insight into the inner workings of how New Zealand is being run today and why corporate power is able to do so much damage.

    Please read and judge for yourself what might have happened. The author of this website thinks many things about it smell wrong.

    (Source: http://www.guerillamedia.co.nz, 2011, link)

    Essentially, the allegation is that the Pike River mining disaster was deliberate, that the 29 miners were murdered, in order to help build support for open-cast mining, which can then be argued to be ‘safer’ than underground mining, thus help open up New Zealand for international mining companies.

    Here are some excerpts, which focus on Jacob Cohen’s allegation of ‘safety negligence’ at Pike River Mine:

    CHAPTER TWO PIKE RIVER COAL MINE EXPLOSION & SAFETY NEGLIGENCE

    According to news reports, the giant methane explosion in the mine occurred around 3.15pm± 3.30pm on Friday,19 November 2010. Quite simply, it was massive.

    The force of the explosion blew out of a 110 meter deep ventilation shaft and blackened the surrounding bush 60 meters away from the shaft portal.

    It also blew over 2km down the main access tunnel and was recorded by a CCTV camera at the portal blasting outwards for 52 seconds, so remarkably, there must have been an enormous, undetected buildup of methane in the mine prior to the explosion, but no warnings or alarms for the miners ever sounded.

    Clearly, there was no proper fixed methane gas detection monitoring system in the mine connected to alarms, or if there was the system was not working. It seems there also was no monitoring system to the office outside for 24 hour constant surveillance either.

    All this is rather strange, since strategically located gas detectors are now a standard requirement in all Australian and US underground coal mines.

    There are strict requirements to provide extensive gas monitoring, safety and health management systems in all Australian mines in which the CEO, Peter Whittall, has been trained and worked.

    Why were there none working?

    The first reports of an explosion were at 3.45pm and management was not even aware that there had been an explosion until around 4.10pm, nearly an hour after the estimated time of the explosion!

    This is much more than extreme negligence. ……”

    Download pdf: Murder at Pike River Mine.pdf (625 KB)
    [swf file=”/sites/default/files/users/Dan/pdf/Murder%20at%20Pike%20River%20Mine.swf”]

    _____________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/west-coast/9407313/Book-Excerpt-Tragedy-at-Pike-River-Mine

    Book Excerpt: Tragedy at Pike River Mine

    The book that will change the way we think about the Pike River mine disaster was launched in Greymouth last night.

    The Press secured this exclusive extract from the chapter Entombed.

    Every day through the long hours of testimony, the same worn faces would be seen in the public gallery, determined to make sense of the loss of their husband, son, father, brother, uncle, friend. And every day they would hear dark new evidence revealing the immensity of Pike River Coal’s failings. Mining a coal seam known to be high in methane gas, the company had not installed a system fit for the purpose of monitoring its major hazard. Fixed sensors in the mine hadn’t been working for weeks before the explosion: one had been out of action since September 4; another since October 13; one was unreliable and transmitted incorrect gas readings after it had been “poisoned” by high methane levels, causing a flat line to show on the surface control room system. Nothing was done, despite statutory mine manager Doug White having signed off a report stating the monitor was “stuck” at a reading of 2.8 percent methane.

    Despite early plans to pre-drain methane from the coal seam before mining began, this hadn’t happened. Instead, gas was bled out of the seam from the in-seam drill holes that Pike relied on to find out where the coal seam lay, and drained through a pipeline the company knew to be inadequate and overpressured.They heard how Pike’s electrical system departed from conventional mine design: the main fan – the principal source of clean air for the workers – was placed underground, where it could not be reached in the event of a disaster. The fan’s motor and other items of electrical equipment underground were not designed to be intrinsically safe or flameproof, and could operate only in fresh air.

    Pike had forged ahead with the introduction of its hydro-mining system before establishing the second means of egress that was required in law. It had widened the area to be mined with the hydro monitor without adequate knowledge of how the strata above would behave. It had started commissioning the system without having sufficient skilled workers to man it, and in the face of repeated spikes in the volume of methane released into the mine atmosphere.

    The evidence laid before the Royal Commission showed that day after day Pike’s underground workers – miners and the many contractors who had no background and little training in coal mining – had walked into an environment that might have exploded any number of times.

    “There were numerous warnings of a potential catastrophe at Pike River,” the commission said in its final report. One source of this information was the reports made by the underground deputies and workers. For months, these men had reported incidents of excess methane, and many other health and safety problems. “In the 48 days before the explosion there had been 21 reports of methane levels reaching explosive volumes, and 27 reports of lesser, but potentially dangerous, volumes of the gas,” the commission noted. “The reports of excess methane continued up to the very morning of the tragedy. The warnings were not heeded.”

    Pike River Coal was focused on its short-term needs, the commission concluded. The mine was badly behind schedule and its credibility was under strain; it had faced difficulties from the start of the project, promised production volumes had proved illusory, and it needed more capital. There was a drive for coal production before the mine was ready. By November 2010, “the emphasis placed on short-term coal production so seriously weakened Pike’s safety culture that the risks of an explosion either went unnoticed or were not heeded.”

    Those whose duty it was to manage the risks of the operation had failed. “In the drive towards coal production, the directors and executive managers paid insufficient attention to health and safety and exposed the company’s workers to unacceptable risks. Mining should have stopped until the risks could be properly managed.”

    And the regulator had allowed Pike to continue operating in breach of the law. “The Department of Labour did not have the focus, capacity or strategies to ensure Pike was meeting its legal responsibilities under health and safety laws,” the commission found. “The department assumed Pike was complying with the law, even though there was ample evidence to the contrary. The department should have prohibited Pike from operating the mine until its health and safety systems were adequate.” …..
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    Seems ‘whistle-blower’ Dr Jacob Cohen was correct about the Pike River Coal Mine explosion and safety negligence?

    What other matters that Dr Jacob Cohen raised in “Murder at Pike River Mine”, are worthy of (re)consideration?

    I recommend folks have another read – because it seems a lot of ‘dots’ are now ‘joining up’?

    Penny Bright

    • Arfamo 17.1

      Yup. Clark’s Labour government and National’s current government are guilty of culpable neglect. Cunners has recognised that.

    • Rogue Trooper 17.2

      vanity, vanity, all is vanity

    • bad12 17.3

      There are two points i would like to make here, and a i have made them befor, my apologies if you are bored with reading them,

      First, the Author pre-supposes, with good reasons i must add, that the first Pike River Mine explosion was simply one of Methane Gas, obviously the Scum managing the mine were ‘knowingly’ playing a game of Russian Roulette with the lives of anyone who went underground with Methane levels said to be within the danger zone of being able to explode 20 times in the 40 days leading up to the first explosion,(4-17% of Methane Gas to air in an atmosphere),

      However, and like the Author i have developed a belief that certain parties involved with Pike River ‘wanted’ that mine to explode,(why would anyone continue to operate it without proper working gas sensors without the intent, these are hardly ‘stupid’ people), what has not been taken notice of is the evidence of both the mine Manager on the day of the explosion or the South African miner sent into the mine to ‘see what was going on’,

      From the carpark at the administration block after the initial explosion the Mine Manager at the time said in His evidence to the Royal Commission that He smelled a strong smell of burnt diesel, Methane Gas when combusted has no smell,

      The South African electrician sent into the mine after the first explosion said in His evidence to the Royal Commission the same thing, ”a strong smell of burnt diesel” and added chillingly to the Commission that He had 27 years experience in South African mines and the burnt diesel smell was ”exactly like the smell of AMFRO explosives He had experienced while mining in South Africa,

      My view is that persons or person unknown has set out to deliberately have that mine explode, to all extents and purposes the mining company was insolvent BUT it did have a reputed $100 million of insurance,

      The only real question in my mind is did those persons or person unknown get ‘sick of waiting’ for the spark which would trigger the explosion of the Methane Gas continuously sitting within the tight band of being able to explode and having waited for day after day did that person or those persons unknown then decide to help the process along a little with a small parcel of AMFRO explosives attached to a timing device???…

  18. greywarbler 18

    John Clarke and Brian Dawe on the fine art o fpolitical interviewing.

  19. BLiP 19

    Anyone know what the kerfuffle in the public gallery just before Question 2 in Parliament today was all about?

  20. Molly 20

    I have a seven year old son who is enjoying playing Monopoly with his grandfather who is visiting – despite the end result being one player with everything and the other destitute. (Guessing the enjoyment has more to do with the companion than the outcome).

    My 12 year old – knowing my complete indifference to the game – suggested creating a boardgame that rewards for good choices – ie. more points for environmental design, more people in well designed houses etc. Being an ideas man with no capital – he went on to Kickstarter. Being a realist I headed off to Google – and searched for “board game – socialism” and guess what came up?

    Monopoly in it’s earlier guise – known as The Landlord’s Game.

    Different versions and rules but some of them that move past the end premise of our contemporary Monopoly. For example in the Rules for NO 748628 BY LIZZIE J MAGIE:

    FOR ADVANCED AND SCIENTIFIC PLAYERS.
    When players have become thoroughly familiar with the rules and principles of the game they will readily perceive that if the game be continued long enough the inevitable result will be that one player will own everything on the board. Under the ordinary rules, however, two or three sittings would probably be necessary to reach this end; therefore it is suggested that in order to arrive more quickly at a decisive point, the following rules be observed:
    When 10 houses have been erected — whether by one or more players — taxes (blue spaces) are doubled (20): when twenty-five houses have been erected taxes are again doubled ($40), which is the limit….

    …THE MONARCH OF THE WORLD.
    The Landlord’s Game is based on present prevailing business methods. This the players can prove for themselves; and they can also prove what must be the logical outcome of such a system, i.e., that the land monopolist has absolute control of the situation. If a person wishes to prove this assertion — having first proven that the principles of the game are based on realities — let him do so by giving to one player all of the land and giving to the other players all other advantages of the game. Provide each player with $100 at the start and let the game proceed under the rules with the exception that the landlord gets no wages. By this simple method one can satisfy himself of the truth of the assertion that the land monopolist is monarch of the world. The remedy is the Single Tax.
    THE SINGLE TAX.
    If the players wish to prove how the application of the Single Tax would benefit everybody by equalizing and opportunities and raising wages, they may at any time during the game put the single tax into operation by a vote of at least two of the players.
    RULES.
    Players were left in possession of their holdings and, with the exception that the Title Deeds are of no value, the gain goes on as before under the following rules:
    RULE 1. Pay no taxes on Absolute Necessities.
    RULE 2. All land rent is paid into the public treasury to be used for public improvements. (Begin game under single tax with empty PUBLIC TREASURY.)
    RULE 3. All railroad fares and franchise rates are paid to the individual owners as before until the public takes control of them (see Rule 6), when they are FREE.
    RULE 4. When a player stops upon an unimproved lot (except Government Reservations, see following rule) he first pays the full land rent into PUBLIC TREASURY, and then, if he so desires and can afford it, he may improved the lot by erection of a house thereon. But if the space upon which he has stopped is already improved by another player’s house, he first pays the full land rent into the PUBLIC TREASURY and then pays the full house rent to the owner of the house. If that anytime a player has money to invest, he may, in his turn, erect a house on any unimproved lot he chooses, whether his checker is on that space or not, provided no other player bids against him for the privilege of building there.
    The “bid” money (or rent) is paid into the PUBLIC TREASURY.
    RULE 5. HOGG”S GAME PRESERVES and LORD BLUEBLOOD’S ESTATE are supposed to be reserved by the Government for Free College sites (see part c, Rule 6), and until the colleges are erected a player whose throw brings him upon one of the use spaces is trespassing and must go to JAIL.
    RULE 6. (a) When the cash in the PUBLIC TREASURY from land rents and fines amounts to $50 it is paid to the holder of the SOAKUM LIGHTING SYSTEM charter for the purchase of the plant, which is then owned and operated by the public, (the change to public ownership being by condemnation, excluding value of right of way). The card is returned to the pack, and henceforth the Lighting System space is free to all players. If the card is still in the pack the $50 is paid into the MISCELLANEOUS pile.
    (b) When the cash in the PUBLIC TREASURY amounts to $50 more, go through the same process with SLAMBANG TROLLEY; then P.D.Q.R.R.; then GEE WIZZ R. R., and so on around the board until all the railroads are free.
    (c) Then when the cash in the PUBLIC TREASURY amounts to $50 more it is put into the MISCELLANEOUS pile from which a Free College is taken and placed on LORD BLUEBLOOD’S ESTATE and the jail penalty is annulled.
    (d) When the cash in the PUBLIC TREASURY amounts to $50 more it is transferred to the MISCELLANEOUS pile and WAGES ARE RAISED TO $110. When the cash amounts to $50 more, wages are raised to $120, and so on, raising wages $10 for every $50 in the TREASURY, until the end of the game.
    RULE 7. After the first FREE COLLEGE is erected, if a player goes to college he takes a blue card marked Education and when he gets four of these cards he exchanges them for a card marked Professor, which card counts him 100 at the end of the game.
    RULE 8. Under the Single Tax the Poor House is eliminated because all players have access to land — the natural opportunities to labor. If a player cannot afford to make the move called for by his thrown, he puts his checker upon any NATURAL OPPORTUNITY space (inner corners) he may choose, back of the space to which is throw would bring him. Then just before throwing in his next turn he takes from the MISCELLANEOUS pile the wages called for by the NATURAL OPPORTUNITY space upon which he has placed his checker, pays his rent for such space into the PUBLIC TREASURY, throws his dice, and moves out. A player must make the move, if possible, even if it takes him to JAIL.”

    Can you imagine the type of economic discourse around the family table if this was the version still on sale?

    • Rogue Trooper 20.1

      Pass Go

    • Ad 20.2

      I was looking after two 10 year olds in a school holidays, and we generated our own version of Monopoly using cardboard, crayons and paint.

      It had a stronger RMA and regulatory focus. Lots of mountains, lakes, rivers, farmers, dams, cola vs wind vs nuclear power options.

      We spent all day and late into the night just making it and trying to get the rules to work.

      Great fun.

      Never played it.

    • BLiP 20.3

      Heh! One EPIC Christmas game at the bach saw us develop rules that the utility companies represented social consequences whereby the Maori players who landed there had to go to jail whereas the womenfolk had to miss four turns while they had babies, etc, etc, etc. Imma gonna print out your rules and try them out this year . . .

  21. If the New Zealand All Whites needed a reminded that
    Miracles can happen in sport, they only need to look at
    the USA Ice Hockey team that beat the mighty Russians
    for the Gold Medal in 1980.

    What the All Whites need though is beyond a miracle,
    if they were too beat Mexico 4-0 and qualify for the
    world cup, nothing in our sporting history would come
    close, I would say it would go down as the biggest
    sporting upset THE WORLD has ever seen or will seen.

    To qualify for Brazil before the first leg would’ve been a
    massive upset, perhaps in the top ten sporting upsets of
    all time.

    To win the second leg 4-0 and qualify, would be the biggest
    thing that has ever happen in the history of sport.

    That is why it won’t happen.

    Reality rules over the dreamers.

    At around 930pm Wednesday night, kiwis wont be
    jumping for joy, we wont be setting trends on twitter,
    we wont be txting family and friends around the world,
    about how the All Whites did it.

    We will be very proud, that we put up a better effort, we
    will talk about the future of NZ Football and who should
    lead us, but this will be no miracle on ice.

    Let the 37 thousand kiwis have fun, let us sing and chant,
    let us admire the Mexicans, let there be talk before the
    match that IF we get a early GOAL, things could go our
    way, but deep down know, it’s just too big of a hill to
    climb.

    We’re not going to Brazil, a Miracle on Ice is just that,
    a Miracle that only happens once in History.

    But that’s okay, as long as we play like a football
    team should.

    Here’s hoping that we do.

    Time will tell.

    • fender 21.1

      As you say it’s a big hill to climb, but hopefully the players aren’t going into the game with the same pessimism as you Brett. 😉

      • Brett Dale 21.1.1

        Fender:

        Haha, maybe a bit pessimist, but trying to bring a bit of realism, heres hoping they will play better and maybe score one of two to give the crowd something to cheer about.

    • Morrissey 21.2

      The All Whites need what the All Blacks had against similarly superior opponents in the 2011 RWC final—a crooked/incompetent/stage-struck non-referee.

      Sadly for them, however, soccer has no equivalent to Craig Joubert…..

      • Te Reo Putake 21.2.1

        Sadly, Moz, football has many, many Craig Jouberts. It’s one of the reasons UEFA has introduced additional refs to stand behind the goal in the Europa league matches and why FIFA is now tentatively supporting goaline technology because refs and their assistants simply cannot be relied on to get even the basis decision of whether or not the ball went in the goal correct.

        eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KwptCFcX7I

        But I certainly agree with your assesment of Jouberts performance; the most cringe worthy example for me was when he had a perfect view of Richie McCaw putting his knee into the back of a prone man in a ruck (or maul, I don’t know the difference) and didn’t do a thing. Pathetic.

        • Morrissey 21.2.1.1

          Very good citation there, my friend. Let’s hope that goal-line technology doesn’t take over and slow everything down, like it has in the NFL—and yes I know it’s hard to believe that the NFL could get any slower.

          Letting McCaw get away with such thuggery was the least of the non-referee’s failures that evening. The French, who are far more brutal and cynical than the All Blacks, could handle violence like that; what they could not handle, or accept, was the All Blacks’ strategy of deliberate, persistent fouling which Joubert defiantly refused to penalise. Another egregious example is Andre Watson—another South African—who gifted the 1999 Rugby World Cup final to Australia.

  22. Tracey 22

    “A Government Chief Privacy Officer will be appointed to give a stronger focus on privacy and security in government.

    The new position was announced by State Services Minister Jonathan Coleman and Internal Affairs Minister Chris Tremain.

    “It is important that New Zealanders have confidence in government agencies to do all they can to ensure personal information is kept safe,” Dr Coleman said.”

    I thought if people had nothing to hide they have nothing to fear?

    • Colonial Viper 22.1

      Remember: any legislative title or position title this Government creates is probably something charged with doing the opposite of what it says. This is US style BS. “Citizens United”, Ministry of Truth etc.

    • Arfamo 22.2

      Basically if people have nothing to hide they can never be successful parliamentarians. Well, not on the evidence so far.

  23. Rogue Trooper 23

    The Herald appear to be hammering the cops at present…
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11159543

    • Arfamo 23.1

      Perhaps a few of them deserve it, as much as their masters and underfunders? I feel sorry for cops most of the time. Their management’s crap, their political masters piss all over them, they can never know whether or not to trust their colleagues and every pissed nobody wants to have a go at them on Friday nights and weekends when they’re trying to keep the streets clean of the mess that infects them.

      • Tiger Mountain 23.1.1

        A few? There are hundreds of bent coppers if BLiP’s link list of a couple weeks back is anything to go by. And that is the ones that got caught. If you want to talk infection–police violent alpha male culture is quite a nasty one.

        Really any adult kiwi or friends and family that have not experienced the NZ blue bellies in action–fobbing off, mis leading, interrupting lawful protest, intervening in industrial disputes on behalf of bosses, misuse of lethal force, misuse of taser, batons and pepper, assault, arrest without charge and release, denial of legal assistance, verbal abuse and harassment of the vulnerable; has led a very sheltered life.

        • bad12 23.1.1.1

          Yes Tiger, i agree with you 100%, what is even more worrying from the Corruption/Sexual Assault case within the Christchurch Police is that there is said to have been ‘another’ witness to what happened at the time of the first complaint,

          Unsubstantiated rumor has it that this ‘other’ is in fact a serving Police Officer who took the Sergeant Shultz position when asked about His colleagues offending, claiming to have not seen anything,

          Thus this particular piece of ‘infection’ within the ranks of the Police was able to escape prosecution and continue His pattern of offending,

          There is only one means that i can see of breaking the Police’s code of silence which is more effective at protecting Bent Cops than the Mafia’s omerta, and that is to make those who must have seen or known of Police offending, (such as the broken neck inflicted by a Police baton at a Wellington Party),a party to the offending…

        • Arfamo 23.1.1.2

          Well, I’ve experienced the NZ blue bellies on several occasions doing their job well. While I’ve no doubt they get carried away and there are bad eggs and they go over the top in managing demonstrations etc, let’s see you and your mates take on their job for 12 months and then we’ll talk about how how perfectly well you did it all?

          • bad12 23.1.1.2.1

            Arfamo, so what exactly are you saying here, it was ok for that Cop to give that kid a bash in the neck with a baton with the result of a broken neck ‘coz it’s a hard job’,

            Are you then saying it’s alright for the other 6 cops who were lining the hallway of the house this assault occurred in to refuse to identify which Cop bashed the kid ‘coz it’s a hard job’,

            How bout the Cop in Christchurch, should we all understand and forgive His sexual offending and corruption ‘coz it’s a hard job’,

            The rumor circulating that another serving Cop witnessed the offending surrounding the first complaint against this bent Cop and refused to talk to those investigating so a prosecution couldn’t stop that offending at victim number one, and that’s alright ‘coz it’s a hard job’ is it,

            Go read the list that Blip has previously published, 100’s of incidents and they are all alright ‘coz it’s a hard job’ are they???…

            • Arfamo 23.1.1.2.1.1

              No. Can you show me where I said that?

              And then can you say that ALL COPS do these things you have mentioned?

              And then can you tell me how many cops are on the payroll and why you apparently think they all do?

              • Rogue Trooper

                “…don’t give me culture, I’m not hearing you Rob”

              • felix

                “And then can you say that ALL COPS do these things you have mentioned?”

                th’ fuck has that got to do with anything?

                We’re talking about a list of serious crimes. They can’t be brushed off because they might have been committed by only hundreds of cops, not thousands.

                • Arfamo

                  Where’s BLip’s list?

                  Problems like that start with dickhead MBA-holding checklist-ticking, vision-outlining useless fucking management at the top, underfunding, and consequent lousy morale all through the organisation.

                  Can you remember that useless dork of an area manager who completely fecked up the whole handling of the Pike River disaster. He was a feckin international embarrassment.

  24. Morrissey 24

    The Hall of Hogwash

    Exhibit No. 7: BORIS JOHNSON

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “….surely we should stop bashing the rich. … we should be offering them humble and hearty thanks. It is through their restless concupiscent energy and sheer wealth-creating dynamism that we pay for an ever-growing proportion of public services. … their contribution to the wider good…. And yet they are brow-beaten and bullied and threatened with new taxes…”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —Mayor of London BORIS JOHNSON—contrary to what you probably think, he’s not just having a laugh.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/10456202/We-should-be-humbly-thanking-the-super-rich-not-bashing-them.html

    hogwash, n. 1. Worthless, false, or ridiculous speech or writing; nonsense; 2. Garbage fed to hogs; swill
    hypocrisy, n. 1. the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc., contrary to one’s real character or actual behaviour, esp. the pretence of virtue and piety; 2. an act or instance of this

    More hogwash….
    No. 6 DAVID CAMERON: “We have a free press, it’s very important the press feels it is not pre-censored from what it writes and all the rest of it.”
    No. 5 JIM MORA: “Without bashing poverty, ahhhh, …. uh, again, we’re not trying to bash people in poverty, but, uh,….”
    No. 4 JIM MORA: “The United States has been a bulwark against totalitarianism, hasn’t it.”
    No. 3 JOHN KERRY: “The best way to give these negotiations a chance is to keep them private.”
    http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Kerry-prolongs-trip-set-to-meet-Abbas-in-Ramallah-320386
    
No. 2 DAVID CAMERON: “We never support, in countries, the intervention by the military.”
    
No. 1 BARACK OBAMA: “Madiba’s moral courage…people standing up for what’s right….aaaahhhh, the yearning for justice and dignity…”

    • greywarbler 24.1

      Boris Johnson
      What a great word bombast is – high-sounding language with little meaning, used to impress people – and it has lots of synonyms.
      : bluster, pomposity, ranting, rant, nonsense, empty talk, humbug, wind, blather, blether, claptrap;

  25. greywarbler 25

    I note on Bryce Edwards page he does not allow anyone to have pseudnyms but (puts any in brackets after the name). Why can’t people have a well-known pseudonym. At one time lawyers couldn’t advertise so wouldn’t want names published over everything. And if he caqn’t ferret out your real name, then what does he do, issue a warning – this person is unnamed and dangerous.
    on liberation – bryce edwards Greg Presland (The Standard): David Cunliffe enters the leadership race

  26. Morrissey 26

    LIARS OF OUR TIME

    No. 37: Alan Seay

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “You know, we respect the rights of people to protest….”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —-Alan Seay, Corporate Affairs Manager, Anadarko New Zealand
    Radio NZ National Checkpoint, Tuesday 19 November 2013

    More liars….
    No. 36 Paul Dykzeul: “No we won’t be changing the Listener; it’s got a terrific editor….”
    No. 35 Mark Jennings: “I think Paul’s a bright guy and he will be able to bring a discipline to his performance….”
    No. 34 Willie Jackson: “I thought we’d been sensitive with her yesterday….”
    No. 33 Supt. Bill Searle: “I think what’s happened here is the police officers have done their very best….”
    No. 32 Sonny-Bill Williams: “It’s good to get the win over Papua-New Guinea, a strong Papua-New Guinea side, aahhhh….”
    No. 31 John Palino: “Suggestions that I am somehow orchestrating some grand right-wing conspiracy to unseat Len after the election are so wrong…”
    No. 30 Alan Dershowitz: “I will give $10,000 to the PLO if you can find a historical fact in my book that you can prove to be false.”
    No. 29 John Banks: “I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear. And never, ever would I ever knowingly sign a false electoral return. Never ever would I ever.”

    No. 28 John Kerry: “…we are especially sensitive, Chuck and I, to never again asking any member of Congress to take a vote on faulty intelligence.”
    
No. 27 Lyse Doucet: “I am there for those without a voice.”
    
No. 26 Sam Wallace: “So here we are—Otahuhu. It’s just a great place to be, really.”


    No. 25 Margaret Thatcher: “…no British government involvement of any kind…with Khmer Rouge…”


    No. 24 John Key: “…at the end of the day I, like most New Zealanders, value the role of the fourth estate…”
    


No. 23 Jay Carney: “…expel Mr Snowden back to the U.S. to face justice…”
    


No. 22 Mike Bush: “Bruce Hutton had integrity beyond reproach.”
    


No. 21 Tim Groser: “I think the relationship is genuinely in outstanding form.”
    


No. 20 John Key: “But if the question is do we use the United States or one of our other partners to circumvent New Zealand law then the answer is categorically no.”
    


No. 19 Matthew Hooton: “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They DON’T!”


    No. 18 Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”



    No. 17 Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”



    No. 16 Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months.”



    No. 15 Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
    


No. 14 Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
    
No. 13 Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”
    




No. 12 U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
    


No. 11 Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”



    No. 10 Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    


No. 9 NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    


No. 8 Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question….”



    No. 7 Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”




    No. 6 Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”




    No. 5 Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”
    




No. 4 Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”
    



No. 3 John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    



No. 2 Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”




    No. 1 Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

  27. felix 27

    lolz at Gerry Brownlee in parliament today, who said the protest flotilla are a bunch of dirty diesel-burning boats.

    They’re yachts Gerry you moran. The giveaway is the sails.

    • Arfamo 27.1

      Gerry probably thinks sails are hoisted by diesel engines. He’s a woodwork teacher, not a sailor. Probably not allowed on small boats because of balance/ballast issues.

    • Rogue Trooper 27.2

      u r so humorous felix. (they are just pissing in the wind these Tories). lol, time to read the ‘P’ thread now.

    • Anne 27.3

      Doesn’t matter felix. Gerry says they’re dirty diesel-burning boats so that’s what they are… according to the half-wits and there’s one hell of a lot of them out there.

      I was chatting to a senior pilot with Air NZ and he told me he read Ian Wishart including his mag ‘Investigate’. Apparently he’s published a new book claiming the United Nations are planning to install a world government with them at the helm – some unbelievably idiotic crap like that anyway. He got an earful from me so not sure how our future relations (he’s marrying a niece of mine) are going to work out.

    • greywarbler 27.4

      Perhaps Brownlee is now to be Greenlee – a reconstruction of a shambles of an ethical, responsible human being who has re-educated himself. He was a wood-worker so he may have made some calipers or old-fashioned wooden crutches to help him to stand tall and fearless, not feckless, and protect our environment where it is so much needed.

      Thank you Gerry for worrying about diesel boats not being good for the environment, but relax and smile – they are sail powered, even if they have engines to fall back on. Which you would agree would be prudent just as a backstop.

  28. vto 28

    For positing on the relative position of men on the thread of the fine poster Karol earlier today I got told off like a naughty boy and sent to some other room (not sure which yet as it hasn’t turned up). Thought it may be worth posting here for other consideration.

    Karol’s post on poverty, women and rape culture stated among many points, that low income women suffer the most from violence. I suggested that that may not actually be the case and that men may in fact suffer more. However, such a posting was not legit in her opinion. I responded thus (amended slightly to read more easily);..;..;..

    … how on earth is it so illegitimate to bring up men’s position given the nature of the post? went up to copy and paste something to support bringing this up but didn’t because there were so many references to “men” “white male” “gendered this” “gendered that” “males” it just goes on

    but here is one copied and pasted
    “To address fully the impact of our highly gendered socio-economic system that has institutionalised gendered violence, it is important to work to counter the ways that low income women are at the forefront of those suffering most.”

    low income women are at the forefront of those suffering most?. Well, most compared to what? It is very clear that what you are saying Karol is that it is the most compared to those on higher incomes, and the most compared to those not women i.e. men. So I posited that perhaps this is not correct.

    So how is not permissible to comment as I did? You are comparing the situation of women to that of men yourself Karol.

    ..so……back to this post now….

    … is this not correct? Is Karol not comparing the situation of men and violence relative to the position of women and violence in such a thread by her very description of the issue? Or not? And if she is then surely it is entirely legit to comment on that description which forms the very basis of her post?

    (note that the issue here is not the violence issue but the commentary issue)

    hope that makes sense

    • karol 28.1

      vto, there is a link to the kyriarchy on the post, which explains some significant aspects of the ways various forms of oppression, overlap, and intersect.

      low income women are at the forefront of those suffering most?. Well, most compared to what? It is very clear that what you are saying Karol is that it is the most compared to those on higher incomes, and the most compared to those not women i.e. men.

      Yes – low income women, are most likely to be subjected to a variety of oppressions, resulting in a huge amount of suffering: this includes discrimination in employment (if they are able to get/take paid work), hassles on WINZ, with many of Bennett’s punitive reforms targeting single women especially those with women – plus all the impacts of rape, sexual violence, domestic violence, and associated misogyny and rape culture.

      vto, you are persisting in denial, and refusing to look at all at women’s experiences. TS is a pretty male dominated context, and male perspectives get a fair amount of space, and on issues most significant to a large number of men. Already on the thread you were looking to diminish the very real imapaact and experience of rape and rape culture, and stated explicitly:

      males have a harder life generally

      And you’ve been repeating that kind of line over and over, more or less in differnt ways, on various other discussions.

      I’m sure you’ll keep on defending it.. And I dare say you’ll have your supporters. But the other thread is one space within quite a masculine context, for the perspectives and experiences of many women to get an airing. And you really seem unable to accept the traumatising impact of sexual violence on large numbers of women, and the way the surrounding culture of sexism and misogyny impacts on women’s lives.

      On top of that you seem to have little understanding of the struggles of women in poverty.

      • vto 28.1.1

        Appreciate your comments Karol. Genuinely. But I passed no comment on many of those things you mention just above (and neither have I on various other threads – they have all been very specific on particular small points within the larger issue/s) so I don’t know how you can reach the conclusions you have.

        “persisting in denial”
        “refusing to look”
        “looking to diminish”
        “you’ll keep on defending”
        “you seem unable to accept”
        “you have little understanding”

        Do you see what I was commenting on in this comment above? Do you? I don’t think you do, because it was none of those things, those are your inferences and assumptions.

        I even stated at the end “that the issue here is not the violence issue but the commentary issue”. Do you see that? Do you get what I was talking about? It was about the manner of your post and how you based it on one particular fact (among others), which fact you would then not allow me to comment on. It was about that. It was not about the actual issue at hand.

        If I might repeat in slightly different form to try and reinforce….. I asked how it could be illegitimate to comment on the position of men when your very description was referenced against men?

        It was about the legitimacy or otherwise of the type of commentary I tried to make.

        No comment was passed on all those other matters and I reject the assertions you have made about my view on them (as I have passed no view on them).

        And I have no obligation to comment on matters that you think I should. Not commenting on those other matters provides no basis for assumption about what I may or may not think about them.

        so… to the issue of my post ….. do you still maintain there is no legitimacy in commenting on a fact which underpinned your very thread?

    • greywarbler 28.2

      vto
      ‘and sent to some other room (not sure which yet as it hasn’t turned up)’
      Perhaps it will be like the tardis, which will turn up in a cloud of dust, and transport you to an alternative universe similar to the ones on the covers of religious magazines where the lion lies down with the lamb and everyone smiles all the time.

  29. Rogue Trooper 29

    well, I’m going to bed now, such is the sacred and the mundane. Night all.

  30. John Key admits to paying driver to break the law for him, putting lives other road users at risk.
    .
    “Mr Key hailed a tuktuk driver who ran every red light to get to the hotel in time, and was paid double.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=11159156

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