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Open Mike 20/04/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 20th, 2018 - 212 comments
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212 comments on “Open Mike 20/04/2018”

  1. Jenny 1

    Mehdi Hasan, like a number here, has been a true believer in the regime change conspiracy theory, and even gone as far as justifying Russian and Iranian intervention as being necessary to counter it.

    But in his latest essay Mehdi Hasan has taken on the issue that many here have assiduously avoided, the massive war crimes amounting to genocide committed by the Assad regime.

    The many links attached to his essay are worth reading on their own.

    Personally I don’t agree with Hasan’s view that the rebels are as bad as the regime. And I think the jury is still out on the issue of the gas attack in Douma, which even a close reading of Robert Fisk’s essay allows.

    But the fact that someone like Mehdi Hasan can shift his opinion gives me hope that someone like Bill and others like him could shift their opinion. And that my efforts here have not been wasted.

    “Dear Bashar al-Assad Apologists: Your Hero Is a War Criminal Even If He Didn’t Gas Syrians”

    Sorry to interrupt: I know you’re very busy right now trying to convince yourselves, and the rest of us, that your hero couldn’t possibly have used chemical weapons to kill up to 70 people in rebel-held Douma on April 7. Maybe Robert Fisk’s mysterious doctor has it right — and maybe the hundreds of survivors and eyewitnesses to the attack are all “crisis actors.”……

    ……Now, I totally understand why those of you on the MAGA-supporting far right who cheer for barrel bombs don’t give a damn about any of this. But to those of you on the anti-war far left who have a soft spot for the dictator in Damascus: Have you lost your minds? Or have you no shame?……

    ……The truth is that Bashar al-Assad is not an anti-imperialist of any kind, nor is he a secular bulwark against jihadism; he is a mass murderer, plain and simple. In fact, the Syrian dictator long ago booked his place in the blood-stained pantheon of modern mass murderers, alongside the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Henry Kissinger, and George W. Bush. I can think of few human beings alive today who have more blood on their hands than he has.

    So, why defend him? Why indulge in conspiracy theories on his behalf? Why minimize his crimes and abuses? And isn’t it more than a little hypocritical of you to constantly call out the violence of the West or the Gulf states or the rebels, while ignoring or downplaying the violence of Assad?

    Sincerely,

    Mehdi Hasan

    • Jenny 1.1

      Or Maybe readers here would like more Eva Bartlett

      Any takers?

    • mikesh 1.2

      Yeah, I guess Assad should just lie down and play dead; and let ISL overrun his country.

    • bill 1.3

      Hassan Diab was a wee boy filmed being doused in water after that supposed chemical attack. He says…

      http://metro.co.uk/2018/04/19/russia-says-video-boy-doused-water-syria-chemical-attack-fake-news-7480472/

      • red-blooded 1.3.1

        Bill, if you accept that it’s possible this boy was duped and bribed to appear in a “fake news” video showing people dealing with the effects of gas, why can’t you accept that it’s possible that the boy and his father were intimidated and bribed into appearing in a fake news denouncement of that earlier video?

        And even the story in your link says 75 people were killed. Were they also crisis actors?

        I’m not claiming great expertise in this area, I just tend to question conspiracy theories.

        • McFlock 1.3.1.1

          The “bribed” theory contradicts the story told to Fisk that:

          People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”

          So someone touting the “it never happened” theory is almost certainly making shit up. Cue a complicated explanation for the plot holes in this latest farce…

    • Flock 1.4

      I expect the answer to”So, why defend him?” is simple.
      The crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Henry Kissinger, and George W. Bush are well documented.

      There is no evidence the Bashar Assad has committed any crime.

      Surely it is for Syrians, who live in, and have recently returned to Syria,and in 2014 voted overwhelmingly for him as their President, to judge their President.
      Not you, nor I nor Mehdi Hasan who is an Al Jazeera reporter.
      You will know that Al Jazeera is a owned by Qatar and that Qatar has funded the extremists in Syria.

      https://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/qatar/how-qatar-funded-extremists-in-syria-1.2040774

    • Cemetery Jones 1.5

      “Maybe Robert Fisk’s mysterious doctor has it right — and maybe the hundreds of survivors and eyewitnesses to the attack are all “crisis actors.”……”

      Crisis Actors would be a great name for a punk band right now

    • Wei 1.6

      Mehdi Hassan is an emotive fool. I’ve seen him debate Richard Dawkins and Dawkins (not a great debater himself and philosophically naive when it comes to religion) wiped the floor with him.

      Anyone trying to bring modern, secular and ultimately civilised rule to a disparate unruly and fundamentally backward people has to resort to stern measures, and unfortunately there will be collateral damage. But the alternatives are far worse.

      Then Mehdi trots out the usual parade of Western caricatured ‘dictators’ mixed in with his own liberal establishment anointed villains such as Kissinger and Bush. Kissinger had many redeeming qualities, and Stalin and Mao are among the greatest figures in world history, true titans who changed the world for the better.

      • Keepcalmcarryon 1.6.1

        “Anyone trying to bring modern, secular and ultimately civilised rule to a disparate unruly and fundamentally backward people has to resort to stern measures,”
        Just calling you out on your cultural racism again.
        Dirty racist.

        • Wei 1.6.1.1

          It’s absolute common sense that different peoples are at different stages of civilisational development.

          For example the Chinese openly admit to having fallen behind culturally and scientifically the past few centuries. They need a strong hand to guide them to a higher stage of cultural and social and economic accomplishment.

          The real racists are those who want to keep non-western people down by lauding the backward practices of the latter —knowing that cultural ignorance and superstition will keep people of colour mired in the shit forever.

          • Keepcalmcarryon 1.6.1.1.1

            Re read your own vomitus from the last 48 hours.

          • spikeyboy 1.6.1.1.2

            You would make a great colonist. Or maybe you could try the modern equivalent of the missionaries that went forth to save the souls of the unfortunate heathens by starting an NGO to educate and assimillate the diverse people of the world to suit your taste of what civilized means. I’d go with keepcalmcarryon on this one and say definitely racist. Give me the shit mire any day over your pompous venom

    • veutoviper 2.1

      This a great initiative.

      Thanks for putting up this link. AsleepWhileWalking* put up a Herald article on the Marton Countdown on Open mike yesterday, but that article did not answer my questions in my reply to AWW as to frequency and whether Countdown were trialling this in Marton for possible rollout throughout NZ as they are doing with instore pharmacies. This Stuff article has these details.

      The instore pharmacies are excellent for being open seven days a week and for about 12 hours per day, and their lower per item prescription charges of $3 as opposed to the standard $5.

      * https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-04-2018/#comment-1476108

  2. Jenny, I’m confused, I read your post and watched the video clip of Eva Bartlett, and they seen to be saying two entirely different things.

    Medhi Hasan is saying we shouldn’t make a hero of Assad – which I don’t believe any commentator on here has attempted to do. He’s a vile dictator, with few redeeming virtues.

    On the other hand Eva Bartlett is saying that the rebels are worse – which again most commentators would accept.

    What most people here are suggesting is that Assad, for all his faults, is not stupid. Why would he use chemical weapons, a red rag to a bull for the West, when he’s all but winning? That is the not-credible part.

    And most commentators are asking for evidence of the crime and who perpetrated it before going in boots and all and bombing the hell out of Syria.

    Sorry, meant to be a reply to Jenny @2

    • wayne 3.1

      “the rebels are worse – which most commentators would accept.”

      What complete nonsense. Assad has killed literally hundreds of thousands of people, the majority being civilians. He has used massive airstrikes, used gas, used barrel bombs on residential neighbourhoods, hospitals and schools.

      His brutality opened the way for ISIS (also brutal) in both Syria and Iraq.

      The Arab Spring in Syria never needed to be like this. It wasn’t in other countries. He could have accepted some of the demands of the protests back in 2011. Instead he massacred them, just like his father.

      • Barfly 3.1.1

        Bit of a head chopper fan there huh Wayne?

      • One Two 3.1.2

        It would not be unreasonable, given your background and ‘experience’, Wayne…

        To expect that you mght back up the comments you post here with a link, some well reasoned explanations which include the mainstream interference of ‘The West SAUDI and Israel’…who are directly responsible for IsIs…IRAQ, LIBYA, YEMEN, SOUTH SUDAN, LEBANON…ETC

        Instead you take another huge turd and run away…not a cursory attempt to substantiate, by my count at least 13 highly suspect aspects in your comment…

        A number of which have been openly including via MSM sources…rebuked and shown to be incorrect…and outright bullshit…

        So the question becomes…

        Why do you continue on this path, Wayne…what drives your behaviour…

        As we move through stages of life, we should learn and grow…not remain static or regress…which is what your comments indicate…

      • Bearded Git 3.1.3

        Agreed Wayne.

      • Bill 3.1.4

        His brutality opened the way for ISIS (also brutal) in both Syria and Iraq.

        Roight. So the destruction of Iraq had nothing to do with the rise of ISIS. I’m glad we have that one out of the way.

        What about Timber Sycamore? The clandestine funding and arming of groups in Syria by the US (US$1 Billion worth according to the NYT). The US knew their stuff was falling into the hands of the likes of Al Nusra. I guess that has nothing whatsoever to do with the rise of Jahidist elements in Syria either.

        • Stuart Munro 3.1.4.1

          We’re often on opposite sides Bill – but you’re quite right: Assad had nothing to do with the rise of ISIS.

        • joe90 3.1.4.2

          Roight. So the destruction of Iraq had nothing to do with the rise of ISIS

          I think prefer this bloke’s reasoning on why ISIS fancied Syria.

          A warning I direct to the world: If you don't do something soon to help #Syria's people, it will become a jihadist magnet. Big time.— İyad el-Baghdadi | إياد البغدادي (@iyad_elbaghdadi) December 20, 2011

          • spikeyboy 3.1.4.2.1

            Oh yes thats for sure. Just as well “something was done” about Libya and Iraq to make sure they didnt become magnets for Jihadis and that “something is being done” about Yemen to stop that becoming a Jihadi magnet. Wherever would we be if “something” wasn’t being done somewhere? Maybe people would be able to make decisions about their own futures but then I suppose that “something would have to be done” about that

            • joe90 3.1.4.2.1.1

              The Free Syrian Army were a legitimate opposition force comprised of Syrian soldiers who defected from Assad with the understanding that the west would aid them in removing him.

              The west didn’t assist the FSA and members defected again to join well armed, cashed up militias.

              And here we are, sitting on our hands while Assad goes about doing what any half decent despot does, slaughtering any and all opposition with impunity.

              • spikeyboy

                Which is the proper place for our hands to be unless you think Libya was a good idea or along with Albright you think the suffering of Yemen is “worth it”

                • joe90

                  It’s all kind of like the abusive home thing – someone always knows, never do anything about it, and after the fact it’s all it’s not good but we did nothing, because.

                  /

                  • One Two

                    It’s nothing like that in the slightest…

                    Russophobia paralyzes your thinking…

                    Every aspect of Syria then must bend to fit around it…and therefore rational thought is impossible…

                    That is clear!

                  • spikeyboy

                    A pretty bad analogy I would say and most people would recognize that violence in the form of bullets, grenades and missiles is a pretty inappropriate response to domestic violence.

              • Bill

                The west didn’t assist the FSA…

                The “Free Syrian Army” was a fiction. Nevertheless, the US threw at least US$1 billion in the general direction of that fiction through Timber Sycamore. The arms wound up in the non-fictional hands of Al Nusra and other Jihadist gangs that were as bent as the US on getting rid of Assad.

                The FSA (or so we are told) is now aiding and abetting Turkey in its “Operation Olive Branch”. Funnily enough, all these stories of Jihadists just keep coming out of the Turkish/FSA efforts.

                In short. Armed Jihadists never defected to well armed, cashed up militias. The FSA was only ever armed Jihadists/”well armed, cashed up militias”.

      • mauī 3.1.5

        “The Arab Spring in Syria never needed to be like this.”

        Yeah they could have chosen the model failed state pathway like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt did…

        • Stuart Munro 3.1.5.1

          A lot of Arab countries felt they were halfway failed states already. They never devolved much power to their people.

    • Ad 3.2

      “…the rebels are worse – which again most commentators would accept.”

      You are wrong.

      • Well, Wayne and Ad, we won’t quibble over degrees of vileness! Suffice to say that I wouldn’t want to live under either of them.

        But that’s missing the point – why would Assad act the way he is said to have?

        • wayne 3.2.1.1

          Because he is extremely ruthless, just like his father. Their power comes from fear and repression of any one who would dare oppose.

          The gas attacks, even after they had succeeded in Douma, are designed to underscore the point that those who leave will never come back.

          • And Russia has no influence over this monster? Or are the Russians just as bad – which seems to be the prevailing narrative?

          • mikesh 3.2.1.1.2

            Here in New Zealand we tolerate dissent because we know that dissenters are not likely to be biffing molotov cocktails around. I think we would be being somewhat ethnocentric if we thought that this also applied in all other countries.

          • Barfly 3.2.1.1.3

            Yeah Wayne he is a ruthless murderous dictator who will allow no political opposition – he is also a secular dictator who allowed minorities to live safely and allowed woman equality.

            The Al Queda (whatever their current label) and ISIS groups are lunatic murdering Sunni Wahhabist zealots who gleefully (and have a compulsion for) murder and enslaving all those who do not follow their branch of faith – they also wouldn’t know what women’s rights were if they were tattooed on their damn foreheads.

            Which group do you support again Wayne? Really?

            • wayne 3.2.1.1.3.1

              Barfly

              Don’t be so ridiculous as to suggest I support ISIS.

              It may have escaped your notice, but the US, UK and France have all had a vigorous campaign against ISIS. NZ has also been involved in the coalition against ISIS with trainers and intelligence staff (which seems to be now supported by the coalition – they have not done anything to withdraw them).

              It is actually possible to oppose both Assad and ISIS.

              However the west seems to have given up on trying to oust Assad. Their recent actions are merely to restrain him from using gas.

              • Barfly

                “His brutality opened the way for ISIS (also brutal) in both Syria and Iraq”

                Err no Wayne that would be Bush and the bleeping USA in Iraq

                The Syrian Free Army has exposed as a myth.

                You have not taken issue with Al Queda in Syria.

                So do you oppose that particular bunch of lunatic murdering Sunni Wahhabist zealots? If so who is it that you support?

              • Poission

                “NZ has also been involved in the coalition ”

                “It is simply irresponsible to focus criticism on inadvertent casualties caused by the Coalition’s war to defeat ISIS,” Col. Thomas Veale, a spokesperson for the coalition, told the AP.

                https://www.vox.com/world/2017/12/20/16800510/mosul-death-toll-isis-trump-war

                another war crime Wayne?

              • Bill

                …the US, UK and France have all had a a vigorous campaign against ISIS.

                Timber Sycamore. Western government funding of the White Helmets. Funding and advising terrorists on media matters. Not exactly indicative of a “vigorous campaign against ISIS”.

                In fact, the only “vigorous campaign against” that the US, UK and France have had (for right or wrong) is the one they have mounted against the government of Syria.

                And when that has meant aiding and abetting Al Nusa/Al Qaeda/ISIS, then it’s okay “because Assad”.

              • mikesh

                “It is actually possible to oppose both Assad and ISIS.”

                Rather difficult I would have thought.

                • Stuart Munro

                  It was difficult – but the ruins of Mosul show that it was done.

                • red-blooded

                  Don’t be ridiculous, mikesh. Both can be seen as extremists and damaging. Not all conflicts have good guys and bad guys.

                  • mikesh

                    Either ISIS will win or Assad will win. It is difficult not to have an opinion as to which outcome would be better. In other words it would not be be possible to “oppose both sides” as Wayne was claiming.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Rubbish. ISIS have basically lost already. Assad’s forces are not significant in that fight, his war is on ‘his’ own citizens.

              • spikeyboy

                Geez Wayne. A vigorous campaign against would not include funnelling arms by the truckload from Libya to Syria nor supporting ngos that operate solely for the benefit of head choppers. If there were a vote in Syria today Assad would win hands down.I don’t know what his poularity was before the war but there is a lot of evidence that the US believed his popularity was such that a revolution would not take hold.

                https://gowans.wordpress.com/?s=origin+of+syrian+war

                So if you want to do a study of comparative evil so that we may once again be coralled into supporting your lesser evil doctrines thats fine but please leave me out. It is for the Syrian people to decide their future and the more the USA supports the head choppers and their misogynist philosophy the more the Syrian people will stick with Assad

            • red-blooded 3.2.1.1.3.2

              Be fair, Barfly – I don’t think Wayne is supporting either group. He’s already said ISIS are also brutal and he’s expressed sorrow that this awful situation has arisen.

              • Barfly

                “the rebels are worse – which most commentators would accept.”

                “What complete nonsense. ” Comment by Wayne

                That comment irked me RB -The rebels are a lot worse IMO.

          • One Two 3.2.1.1.4

            Why do you continue to post unsubstantiated, and more roundly…refuted statements on a site which is in no alignment with your blatant ideological bent…

            What drives your behaviour, Wayne…

            Raise the level, Wayne…you’re not even fooling yourselves with the nonsense comments you post…

            So you might as well stop trying…and take a good long look in the mirror…hang your head…

          • Ed 3.2.1.1.5

            So, on the brink of victory, he risks defeat, with the one thing that will prompt foreign intervention.
            Assad is not stupid.

          • joe90 3.2.1.1.6

            those who leave will never come back.

            And legislation to make damn sure.

            If the implementation of Law No. 10 of 2018 is anything like that of prior redevelopment regulations, including Decree No. 66 of 2012, which the new law amends and expands, the legislation can be expected not only to line the pockets of Assad regime cronies through new redevelopment projects at the expense of dispossessed property owners who receive insufficient compensation, but also to disproportionately target previous opposition strongholds for demographic change. Decree No. 66 allowed Syrian authorities to “redevelop areas of unauthorized housing and informal settlements” in two specifically designated locations in Damascus. Although the areas were in fact lower and middle-class neighborhoods that could—to a casual observer—seem to be legitimate targets for redevelopment, they were unique in being opposition strongholds. In fact, similar neighborhoods that were largely aligned with the Assad government and at similar socioeconomic backgrounds were left untouched by this displacement and redevelopment scheme.

            https://timep.org/commentary/with-new-law-assad-tells-syrians-not-to-come-home/

    • Andre 4.1

      When it comes to road safety, there’s a whole lot of really simple, cheap improvements that could be done and aren’t. Starting with just some yellow paint.

      How many of the little white crosses on the roadside are very close to short visibility corners where the centreline is marked with a single dashed white line?

      On SH1, just north of Puhoi where the speed limit goes back up to 100, the centreline has just been changed to a wide double yellow with rumble strips. That appears to have dropped average speeds by around 10km/h.

      Meanwhile further north in Dome Valley where the speed limit is 80, the centreline is still marked with single dashed white (including around blind corners), and they’ve just installed a speed camera in the middle of the first long straight going north where it’s viable to pass a particularly slow vehicle. But no surprise, in this stretch typical speeds are still nudging much closer to a safe limit than on the stretch further south marked with double yellow lines.

      Ffs, even Zimbabwe in the late 90s was able to paint double yellow lines around pretty much all blind corners, with arrows in the roadway telling drivers to get back on their correct side an appropriate distance before the corner.

      • Sacha 4.1.1

        Rumble strips have an amazing cost-benefit rating. We can also afford lots of them if the money is not being squandered on a handful of gold-plated duplicate highways.

        • The Chairman 4.1.1.1

          While they may be cost effective, the problem with rumble strips is they don’t physically stop cars from crossing the centre line. Take a sleeping driver for example, by the time they are alerted from the rumble, they’ll potentially be looking at a head on.

          • Sacha 4.1.1.1.1

            True. I understand they are better at stopping single vehicle crashes off the side of the road.

  3. The Chairman 6

    Palmerston North council draws fire for housing rent-hike plan
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/103156209/palmerston-north-council-draws-fire-for-housing-renthike-plan

    It seems the Palmerston North City Council expect the city’s most vulnerable to pay (via a rent hike) for additional council housing.

    Council housing portfolio holder Susan Baty said the proposal was the best overall solution.

    “There’s a real need for additional council housing, but there wasn’t any funds available for that in the 10-year-plan. This was a way around that.”

  4. AsleepWhileWalking 8

    PM makes Time Top 100 Most Influential

    “She’s not just leading a nation, she’s changing the game”, – Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook chief operating officer.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12036134

  5. Pat 9

    Posted yesterday but deserves to be so again….some enlightened thinking, well expressed.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018641349/reserve-bank-governor-adrian-orr

  6. Puckish Rogue 10

    I’m sure everyone will agree that the National government did good work in this area and hopefully the present government will continue along the same lines 🙂

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/04/youth_offending_down.html

    The Youth Justice Indicators Summary report shows that actually youth offending has been dropping under the last Government. It compares 2009/10 to 2016/17. The findings are:

    Child (10 to 13) offending rate down 59%
    Youth (14 to 16) offending rate down 63%
    Pasifika youth offending rate down 61%
    Maori youth offending rate down 59%

    Heres the report:

    Click to access Youth-Justice-Indicators-Summary-Report-201804.pdf

    • James 10.1

      Will be interesting to see the stats in a few years.

    • Andre 10.2

      It may indeed be a National government that can take a lot of the credit, but it might be Bolger’s, not Key’s. Leaded petrol was finally banned in New Zealand in 1996 for road use, although there’s still some in aviation fuel.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-crime_hypothesis

    • Barfly 10.3

      I seem to recollect a change in police procedure whereby minor offences were treated by police warnings rather than arrests – great way to juke comparative stats PR – a bit like when National redefined unemployment and knocked half a % from the unemployment (official) rate and proclaimed their governance skills loudly.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.3.1

        I also recall previous governments refining unemployed as sickness beneficiaries to lower the unemployment rate

        • Barfly 10.3.1.1

          I see you aren’t disagreeing with me that the last National Government juked the stats by changing procedures and definitions. Thank you for that.

    • dv 10.4

      Yet in Herald today
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12036187

      Murder charges laid in Hawke’s Bay this week underscore a troubling trend – young offenders are responsible for or accused of a growing proportion of overall crime.

      The proportion of young people whose offending was serious enough to lead to court action or family group conferences has risen by 19 per cent between 2013/14 and 2016/17, after very little change from 2009/10 to 2013/14.

      There is a useful graph in the article.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.5

      Or they could just be getting it wrong:

      Police altered official crime statistics to make hundreds of burglaries disappear, a Herald on Sunday investigation has found.

      A damning report obtained by the newspaper reveals the burglaries were instead recorded as more minor crimes, or as incidents, which are not counted in crime statistics at all.

      It’s unfortunate that I have to have doubts in what the police say but they do have form.

    • Keepcalmcarryon 10.6

      Perhaps they are dead?
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/96217175/national-suicide-numbers-rise-three-years-in-a-row
      Don’t crow over some doctored stats until you fix the important stuff, we know the Nats don’t actually give a shit about anyone that isn’t rich.

    • lprent 10.7

      the trick looking at population stats is to look at them per thousand(s) population in the relevant demographic. That gets rid of those pesky issues of shifting demographics.

      Otherwise the stats aren’t really worth even looking at. They are just PR froth.

      Which is what your numbers look like. Doesn’t make me want to read the report. Makes you look like a mindless shock jock wanking

  7. ianmac 11

    Feeling hungry? You ain’t seen nothing yet!

    Farah Hancock reporting on Food Symposium.
    Dr Mike Joy:

    To produce one gram of protein from beef, one square metre of land is required. To get one gram of protein from rice requires just .02 of a square metre of land.

    For one litre of milk, 13,600 litres of water are needed. Joy said this figure represents the total water “footprint” required to nourish cows – and to dilute the nitrogen produced by them in order to have clean aquifers and drinkable water.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/04/19/105585/a-future-where-food-is-off-the-menu

    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      Which is something that I and many others have been asking for awhile: How many people can the Earth sustainably hold?

      It appears to be significantly below the number that presently live. And the only way that can end is in tragedy.

  8. Morrissey 12

    Kathryn Ryan, the scourge of helpless civil servants
    RNZ National, Friday 20 April 2018, 9:10 a.m.

    I’ve just heard Kathryn Ryan conduct a sarcastic, hectoring, bumptious interrogation of Census general manager Denise McGregor. “I know“, Ryan scolded her several times during the mauling. What a pity Ryan saves all of her unpleasantness for underlings and civil servants; in stark contrast, she simpers and agrees with the politicians who are responsible for debacles like this year’s census.

    • OncewasTim 12.1

      I’d agree except that in many cases the scourge of helpless civil servants seems to be, more often than not, their own senior corporatised management.
      As we’re seeing more and more, there are some real muppets amongst them and they have a vested interest in preserving the status quo.

      • Morrissey 12.1.1

        Quite true, Tim. However, in this case Kathryn Ryan was simply unleashing her full retinue of sarcasm and feigned exasperation on an underling. The contrast to her handling of genuinely nasty people like Matthew Hooton and Dame Ann Leslie could not be any greater….

        Open mike 03/12/2015

        Open mike 06/10/2015

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      Have you got any proof that this years census was a debacle?

      Everything I saw while working there indicated that it went off pretty well. There were a few issues but, as the Stats people said, it usually takes months to complete the census anyway.

      This was the first time that they did it this way. There was bound to be mistakes made and lessons learned. That doesn’t make it a debacle.

      • alwyn 12.2.1

        How many people have been recorded so far? What percentage of the total is that and how does it compare to the percentage after 6 weeks last time?
        You say you worked there. I assume therefore you can answer such simple questions?

        • Draco T Bastard 12.2.1.1

          You’d have to ask Stats for the answers to those questions. I just related that it was going fairly well when I worked there. At the time, the Stats people seemed happy with the way it was going. Some three million people filled the form in online by the 7th which is pretty good.

          Most of what I’ve seen when people have said that it’s all a fuckup it seems to come down to ZOMG, it’s different from before and I don’t like it so therefore it can’t be working well.

        • McFlock 12.2.1.2

          Yawn.

          So, listening to the interview that you obviously didn’t (although to be fair it’s not like Morrissey listend to what was there, either), they’re working on roughly the last ten percent of the population, this isn’t that different from last census (as far as that comparison is relevant), but exact numbers are difficult to track at this stage because things like collation of household resident numbers against individual returns without addresses is actually part of the process they are undertaking at the moment.

          My guess is that the initial release was of the low-hanging fruit (returned forms that all tabulated perfectly) and that you’re literally asking for information that doesn’t exist yet.

      • OnceWasTIm 12.2.2

        No, not a debacle, more bugger’s muddle.
        I was out of the country, tho’ I had a friend also ‘working there’ (in that place….ooops ‘space’ you apparently were).

        More a bugger’s muddle that’ll eventually sort itself out……possibly…..maybe…..hopefully.

  9. ianmac 13

    Pretty bluddy marvellous for one whose Honeymoon is said to be over?

    “Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern makes Time magazine’s 100 most influential list.”

    “”A designation of individuals whose time, in our estimation, is now”, Time said.”

    “In a world that too often tells women to stay small, keep quiet—and that we can’t have both motherhood and a career—Jacinda Ardern proves how wrong and outdated those notions of womanhood are.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12036134

    • mac1 13.1

      After the honeymoon, of course, comes hopefully a lifetime of domestic harmony and bliss!

      Whoever believed the honeymoon was the only pleasurable and productive part of marriage?

      • ianmac 13.1.1

        Yep Mac1. The real proof is the overcoming of the adversities with strength and humour. Good on yer Jacinda.

  10. Reality 14

    Hopefully MSM will accord our PM the praise she deserves after the impact and impression she has made overseas. I have never seen Angela Merkel quite so warm and smiley! And to use the word “fun”. The world needs a smile in the midst of the turmoil. The Daily Mail has some great photos of Jacinda and she looks so gracious and dignified. Yes, we should be very proud of her.

  11. The Chairman 15

    Anyone else disappointed by Jacinda saying NZ accepted the US, UK and France striking out at Syria, despite there being insufficient evidence to do so?

    • Puckish Rogue 15.1

      Nope, not disappointed at all

        • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1.1

          http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/04/syria-pm-s-position-firmly-on-the-fence-isn-t-good-enough.html

          • Australia says it “supports” the airstrikes in Syria – it’s even considering joining the next round.

          • Canada “supports” them too.

          • Germany called them “necessary and appropriate” and also used the S-word, “support”.

          • NATO “supports” them.

          • The European Union “stands with our allies on the side of justice”.

          The attacks came after yet another gas attack that killed 75 people, including children.

          • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1.1

            And Bandwagoning is still a logical fallacy.

            • JohnSelway 15.1.1.1.1.1

              So is the fallacy fallacy…something you are often guilty of

              • Draco T Bastard

                Point to all of them.

                Or retract.

                • McFlock

                  Well, you are keen on using the word.
                  27 uses in comments on the first search page, you have 9 of them.

                  But I’m sure you’re right to use it 100% of the time lol

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    johnSellway made a very specific accusation which is not covered by your simplistic search. I want him to back it up or retract.

                    • McFlock

                      “Often” is not specific.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      He accused me of using the fallacy fallacy often. He needs to prove it or retract.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Draco – firstly you on two occasions accused me of making an argument from authority when A) I hadn’t and B) you made no attempt at refuting what I was saying and just accused me of making a fallacy as if that disproved the point I was making (it didn’t). That is the fallacy fallacy at work – same as here. You didn’t address the points made, just accused the poster of making a fallacy as if that wins the argument. It doesn’t because you are making the fallacy fallacy.

                      Secondly I am under no obligation to retract. You have on several occasions accused me of being a right-winger (again – to some how claim victory in debate without actually addressing the points I may have been making) without any evidence whatsoever so you are hardly in any position to demand others to provide evidence or retract given your own past history of making claims about others.

                      So I guess what I am saying is – fuck you. You have no moral or intellectual high ground here.

                    • McFlock

                      Unless you’re arguing that you’ve never tried to dismiss an entire perspective or comment because it uses a fallacy, how do you define “often”?

                    • OnceWasTIm

                      Draco Draco Draco, PLEASE! Don’t back down!
                      Fuk ’em! PLEASE! Your ego and ideology is at stake!

                      (It’s increasingly hard to agree with many of your points of view when you are increasingly becoming a complete fucking wanker. I used to see a DracotB worthy of an opinion – usually with evidence based kaka that at least propped up his view. Not so lately.
                      People can challenge you with an opposing view based on lived experiences, yet – yea well…..
                      No ………. pfffffffffft.
                      I’ll continue to consider your ideas and contributions, but ffs – your cock isn’t actually as big as you think it is

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      firstly you on two occasions accused me of making an argument from authority when A) I hadn’t and B) you made no attempt at refuting what I was saying and just accused me of making a fallacy as if that disproved the point I was making (it didn’t). That is the fallacy fallacy at work – same as here. You didn’t address the points made, just accused the poster of making a fallacy as if that wins the argument. It doesn’t because you are making the fallacy fallacy.

                      You demanded to know who had filled in the Political Compass in such a way as to say that the who was important when it wasn’t. You even specifically asked what authority they had. An appeal to authority.

                      I wasn’t using it to debunk your argument (you hadn’t made one after all) but using it to say that the who simply wasn’t important.

                      And I did address your point. I explained why it was useful and the methodology that they used (The same methodology that I was taught in uni political science).

                      At no point did you counter my points. You just made assertions about it being an anonymous survey when it obviously isn’t.

                    • JohnSelway

                      That’s not how the appeal to authority works

                      Even it was appeals to authority are not always falicious

                      The methodology isn’t clear at all

                      It was completed anonymously

                      Four strikes, pal.

          • Bill 15.1.1.1.2

            Corbyn was against them. Sanders was against them. Sturgeon was against them. Melenchon was against them.

            These are the people who represent the politics that are on the cusp of usurping Liberalism. So there’s hope of sanity prevailing in the ‘not too distant’.

            P.S. It’s pretty obvious to all but the most one-eyed that there was no gas attack.

            • Ed 15.1.1.1.2.1

              British Major General Jonathan Shaw sounds like he was against them.
              But then we don’t know.
              Because Sky News does not believe in free speech,

          • The Chairman 15.1.1.1.3

            It was good she didn’t fully support it but disappointing she accepted it considering there is insufficient evidence to lay blame at this stage.

  12. adam 16

    Have people heard that the health committee responding to submitters on the medical cannabis bill had their emails published in the clear. Meaning when you got an email from them, you got everyone else’s email address. Including those people who wanted to do submissions anomisiously.

    Must be fun to be part of government, smash people’s privacy apart, then offer up a lame excuse.

    It gets worse, the replies people have sent into the committee, have been sent in the clear to other submitters as well.

    Looking on bright side, let me know when you find one…

    • Draco T Bastard 16.1

      It’s the effect of doing things on the cheap rather investing in proper software. It’s why I think the NZ Government needs an IT department that produces all of it’s software from OS up. Make it so shit like this simply cannot happen because they got a good deal from Microsoft for Office and use the completely inadequate Outlook for email.

      • Sacha 16.1.1

        That’s not about choice of software, it’s people not knowing how to use it.

        • McFlock 16.1.1.1

          I think my favourite example was whena local campaigner sent email #500 to a local council organisation, and the frontline recipient forwarded to their manager (who had been a corecipient of the original email) something like “do you want to handle this? I can’t deal with this bloody idiot anymore”. Hit “reply all” instead of “forward”…

          good for popcorn consumption, that one.

        • Draco T Bastard 16.1.1.2

          Yes, there’s certainly some of that but software in that sort of situation shouldn’t even allow such a breach of privacy. All sorts of restrictions on who can see and do what has been around in software for decades now. It shouldn’t be that hard to understand that we need to have the software doing that for government as well.

    • Rosemary McDonald 16.2

      Unsurprising. This was always going to be made difficult.

      I’d love to know exactly who benefits most from the status quo.

      My bet this is not an oopsie moment.

      It’s deterrent.

  13. red-blooded 17

    The Nats are running an attack line at the moment accusing the government of not knowing how to make decisions and not having sound policy, relying too much on working groups etc.

    Here’s a good list of the 73 working groups, committees and enquiries set up by the Nats in their first 6 months, put together by Luke Christensen on Twitter. (It took them 6 months and 1 week to get to 75.) He’s also prepared a good graphic. I don’t know of a way to include that in a comment on this site, but you can check it out for yourselves.

    • Bearded Git 17.1

      i heard 75 working groups…its called democracy and getting things done…the Nats sat on their hands and did nothing.

    • Enough is Enough 17.2

      The Nats had 73 working groups at the same stage of their first term.

      The idiots don’t seem to think we can fact check there claims.

    • Incognito 17.3

      I think he may have forgotten the infamous National Party Cabinet Club.

  14. Ed 18

    Andrew Little.
    What an effective politician.

    Andrew Little has walked into the entrance of Pike River mine with family representatives in a heavily symbolic, emotional gesture.
    Inside the entrance shaft, the minister embraced Sonya Rockhouse, whose son Ben died in the 2010 explosion and Anna Osborne, whose husband Milton was also killed.

    “This wouldn’t have happened if it wasn’t for Andrew Little and the Labour Government.
    “This is the start of something huge for us. We believe it’s going to be done.”

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/04/start-of-something-huge-families-re-enter-pike-river-with-andrew-little.html

    Despite Key telling the families privately that he would get their family out from a mine death that should never have happened if there was proper regulation and oversight. Despite National reneging on that private assurance and attempt to seal the mine off forever, Andrew Little has brought dignity and grace to this issue.
    His mana only continues to build with the humanity and intelligence he uses to every portfolio he is given.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/04/20/look-at-this-picture-the-national-party-said-this-could-never-happen/

    Look at this picture – the National Party said this could never happen

    • james 18.1

      “Andrew Little.
      What an effective politician.”

      The only effective thing he did for Labour was to stand down.

      Lets do a big “yay” for his work on Pike river when they actually go in the mine proper – of course they will have to go in behind Winson – he wanted to be the first in there.

      • patricia bremner 18.1.1

        No James He is that rare thing… A truly upright man. He might disagree with your politics but he would defend your rights to the end.

    • Ed 18.2

      Effective.

      Andrew Little gives more power to the Privacy Commissioner in new bill
      Andrew Little reaffirms commitment to tackling workplace harassment
      Ngai Tahu and Waikato-Tainui receive substantial treaty payments to acknowledge historical deal
      Andrew Little says three strikes law will be repealed
      Little confirms Pora compensation will be adjusted

      ODT editorial

      Justice Minister Andrew Little is embarking on a task which is sure to divide New Zealand, as most people have strong views on prisons, probation and sentences.
      Mr Little, who is already developing into one of the Government’s most considered ministers, is proposing reform to the country’s criminal justice system and a rejection of “getting tough on crime”, a view long-held by many politicians and voters.
      His vision has been called the boldest political move in criminal justice since former justice minister Ralph Hannan convinced his National Party colleagues to abolish the death penalty in 1961.

      https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/challenging-process-justice-reform

  15. savenz 19

    Jacinda does look incredible in the korowai with the baby bump.

    (Apparently causing a massive positive media reaction, positive change and hope + China possibly having a military presence in Vanuatu has renewed interest in the Pacific and their leaders?).

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/355550/chogm-ardern-to-toast-commonwealth-at-leaders-banquet

    • ianmac 19.1

      I think she has already done the Toast and used a Maori saying.

    • Whispering Kate 19.2

      I agree Savenz – she looked stunning in her NZ designed gown and the Korowai cloak. Like the ad on TV in the old days “she will stop traffic” – good on her for her gracious charming manner – it’s all good for NZ on the world stage. Onwards and upwards for her in her career and family life.

  16. Puckish Rogue 20

    https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/intelligence-panel-step-too-far

    Interesting to see if this leads to anything

    • ianmac 20.1

      Funny chap are you Puckish. You join the outrage that there has been no consultation about some matters then outraged because there is consultation. You are a bit like Duncan Garner. Hey! Are you Duncan Garner?

      • Puckish Rogue 20.1.1

        You’re going to have to take my word I’m not David Garner 🙂

        However based on this:

        Inspector-general Cheryl Gwyn has formed the panel to help her “stand in the shoes of the public” when viewing New Zealand’s intelligence services.

        Then i’d suggest shes got it really wrong as the list provided seem to be more of the…left shall we say

        • ianmac 20.1.1.1

          Who do you think should be on a such a panel Mr Rogue? Hosking? A Young? Puckish?

          • Puckish Rogue 20.1.1.1.1

            I’d have thought you wouldn’t have any journalists on there (same view as Little by the way) especially those with a bit of a conflict of interest going on

            • McFlock 20.1.1.1.1.1

              If they’re advising on specific known instances and getting super-top-secret-pinky-swear clearance to do so, yeah, maybe.

              But if the panel just advises in principle to balance against advocacy from within the services, you’d actually want as diverse a mix as possible to help you balance the conflict between security and freedom. It’s a good way to avoid bureaucratic capture.

    • Chuck 20.2

      Yep…Cheryl Gwyn may have overstepped the mark in making those appointments.

      Andrew Little was surprised when questioned the other day on the panel makeup.

    • Ad 20.3

      Egregious pointless pandering.

      What clearance do they have, and if any, why?

      This government is awash with panels and reviews achieving nothing except reports for the shelf and Welly-churn to keep retired (consulting) public servants voting the right way.

      • OnceWasTIm 20.3.1

        Christ Ad!!! you’re worried about ‘clearances’ rather than …
        You know I was chastised not too long ago by a moderator for suggesting that I was ‘potentially’ familiar with who you might be.
        At the time, nothing was further from my mind, although I do continue wonder whether you’re a progressive (by ANY stretch of the definition), or whether you’re better suited to some comfortably-off senior public servant (or contractual advisor thereof) wanting to preserve his role – and one that’s ‘down’ with the big boys

        Did you ever wonder WHY they might be “awash with panels and reviews”?
        If so, you’ll be disappointed.
        There may be a shitload more to come if a new coalition government is able to clutch its balls.
        But @Ad … you may be in luck. People get tired and complacent and used to the American Express Gold Card, so we’ll see

        • OnceWasTIm 20.3.1.1

          sorry in advance, but you really are full of a load of shit at times – ekshully most times

  17. Keepcalmcarryon 21

    Clare Curran victim of fake Facebook page.
    Makes you wonder who could possibly gain from such dirty tricks:
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/facebook-profile-impersonated-digital-minister

    • Chuck 21.1

      I feel sorry for the impersonator!! why choose Clare Curran?

      Maybe it was a friend of Carol Hirschfeld? looking for some pay-back with Curran destroying a 34-year career…

      • OnceWasTIm 21.1.1

        Whoar (as Phil Ure would have said)
        Why even ask that question Chuck-the-deliverance-from-all-evil-and-savior-with-an-excessively-sized-PENIS?
        Maaate! ya fucking gorjiss,,,,, and hey….. are you rilly rilly an Amirrrikin without a gun?
        Is there a possibility we could hook up sometime?
        that ”
        I feel sorry for the impersonator!! Why choose Clare Curran” statement really showed the size of your impedimenta.

        • Chuck 21.1.1.1

          Might pay to lay off the sauce OnceWasTim, you seem to have an obsession with male genitalia their buddy.

    • Puckish Rogue 21.2

      I don’t think National need to do anything to make CC look foolish, shes quite capable of doing a very good job of it all by herself

  18. patricia bremner 22

    Sadly, Carol Hirshfield made a choice.

  19. Wei 23

    The paramount consideration for all non-Western peoples is DEVELOPMENT.

    That is the creation of modern secular societies with cities, and skyscrapers, medical care, electricity, and high speed computers and jet aircraft and strong high-tech military forces capable of defending against the depredations of Western imperialism.

    The ends justify the means.

    Bashar al-Assad is a fucken hero!

    [lprent: Ok, in my view that is yet another quite deliberate attempt to start a flame war and followed by deliberate provocation in this thread. I’m tired of seeing every conversation you are involved in winding up in a stupid wankfest. It appears to be the only thing that you are good at.

    You are obviously incapable of participating in debate at any level, preferring instead to make each debate purely about yourself. And you add absolutely nothing much to it apart from inducing bans all around.

    Do not come back under any guise ever. I really don’t like moronic trolls and I think that you are simply too stupid to learn to be anything else. ]

    • Keepcalmcarryon 23.1

      The same western imperialism giving you the internet and the free speech to inflict your hate on those you deem culturally inferior, no less.
      What a massive hypocrite.

      • Wei 23.1.1

        So it is hypocritical for a victim to turn the weapons invented by the aggressor on to the aggressor himself?

        I’m not a hypocrite, and you are a numbnuts

        By the way, Asians, Chinese are Indians, are way over-represented in IT and the computer industry, and were pioneers in the development of the modern PC:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Wang

        • Keepcalmcarryon 23.1.1.1

          How’s the freedom of expression in China these days, hypocrite?

          • Wei 23.1.1.1.1

            Don’t live there, but I’ve heard its pretty good actually, Mr numbnuts

            • Keepcalmcarryon 23.1.1.1.1.1

              Izzat so? No state control or anything? How did that protest in the square end up again?

              • Wei

                How did that protest in the square end up again?

                Pretty good. Those hippies got what was coming to them.

              • I taught in China for over three years. I still remember the shock on day 1 on learning that Wikipedia was not available because it’s an open source platform and contained articles critical of China.

                On day 2 us foreign teacher were told NEVER to mention the 3 Ts: Taiwan. Tibet and Tiananmen Square.

                I used to watch the CCTV English news, but soon gave up – first fifteen minutes positive things happening in China, next ten minutes how China was influencing the rest of the world, then five minutes of weather – the only part worth watching.

                After a while the whole atmosphere (and the pollution) became quite oppressive.

                • Keepcalmcarryon

                  What’s noticeable with wei is there is not a single acknowledgement of anything negative about China. It’s possible he’s a paid troll of course.

                  • Ed

                    I think the goal is to swamp the site.
                    Best to ignore.

                    Many positives to discuss this week.

                    Jacinda in Europe making a positive impact for New Zealand.
                    Andrew Little being true to his word to Pike River miners.
                    The government sending a firm message to the fossil fuel industry.

      • Bill 23.1.2

        Did you just claim that “natives” the world over should be thankful for having been colonised?!

        For having their cultures eradicated? For having genocide visited on them?

        And not only that, but you have the audacity to point the high and mighty accusing finger at oppression, that in terms of scale,barely register by any measure that includes those of western liberal democracy these past few hundred years, and also accuse others of being ‘one eyed’ , hypocritical and possible trolls?

        wow

        • Keepcalmcarryon 23.1.2.1

          No Bill that is your warped subjective viewpoint.

          Wei feels that “ You can’t bring liberal democracy to people who run around like 7th century savages slitting throats and beheading people for believing the ‘wrong’ god. You have to use very heavy handed means and crush this sort of shit. Then put in a secular schooling system and develop the economy. Then after two or three generations the people may well be ready for ‘liberal democracy’”
          Pretty much he’s for ramming his superior culture down anyone else’s throat because western imperialism.
          Take your blinkers off

          • Bill 23.1.2.1.1

            It’s my reasonable interpretation of your Pythonesque “What’s the Romans done for us” apologist tripe. If you’d care to explain how else to take your lauding of this western imperialism giving you the internet and the free speech…, then I’m all ears.

            Make it good though, aye?

    • Keepcalmcarryon 23.2

      So you believe that liberal democracy is obsolete. And regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties? Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. And clearly you reject assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and view political violence, war and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation?

      That’s a word for word quote from wikis definition of fascism.
      Couple that with constant assertions of cultural superiority and racism and you know what we call it?

      • Wei 23.2.1

        How did liberal democracy get to be liberal democracy?

        By having the economic and cultural conditions and optimum social stratification that enabled it.

        The economic conditions achieved by extremely illiberal means, off the backs of black, brown, and yellow folk.

        You can’t bring liberal democracy to people who run around like 7th century savages slitting throats and beheading people for believing the ‘wrong’ god. You have to use very heavy handed means and crush this sort of shit. Then put in a secular schooling system and develop the economy. Then after two or three generations the people may well be ready for ‘liberal democracy’

        • Wei 23.2.1.1

          “violence is automatically negative in nature….”

          Liberal democracy = non violence:
          https://tinyurl.com/y7772yoj

        • Keepcalmcarryon 23.2.1.2

          Do go on. Do China and these other aggrieved nations also need more room to expand to develop as they deserve?

          • Wei 23.2.1.2.1

            Huh? What’s your question, numbnuts?

            • Keepcalmcarryon 23.2.1.2.1.1

              Ok that was clearly too difficult.
              Does China deserve to expand to develop in your opinion? Eg the Spratly Islands or Tibet?
              We can even call it lebensraum if it makes you feel more comfortable.

              [Yup The baiting. Did you not see the moderation notes I’ve left “everywhere” for xenophobic idiots like you to read? Because I’m kind, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed them. And I’m assuming you will notice this one (because I’m dropping a direct reply to this comment in a sec). Having read this one, you now have the chance hunt them out, read them, understand them, and then desist with this type of exchange you’re engaging in, and so avoid a very, very long holiday from the site. ] – Bill

              • Wei

                “Lebensraum”?

                Are you talking of the expansion of the Anglo Saxon race into the Americas and Australasia – places they had absolutely no historical connection with?

                • Keepcalmcarryon

                  I thought the ends justified the means when a “more civilised” society used a heavy hand on the less developed until they were “ready for democracy”?
                  hypocritical again wei.
                  Spratly Islands?

              • Wei

                Huh? China did not expand into Tibet because Tibet is a part of China, and is recognized as such by every single sovereign state in the world, New Zealand included.

                The long standing US position, way before the communists took power:

                “The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR (hereinafter referred to as “Tibet”) as part of the People’s Republic of China. This longstanding policy is consistent with the view of the entire international community, including all China’s neighbors: no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state. Moreover, U.S. acceptance of China’s claim of sovereignty over Tibet predates the establishment of the People’s Republic of China. In 1942, we told the Nationalist Chinese government then headquartered in Chongqing (Chungking) that we had “at no time raised (a) question” over Chinese claims to Tibet. Because we do not recognize Tibet as an independent state, the United States does not conduct diplomatic relations with the representatives of Tibetans in exile.”
                http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/bureaus/eap/950907WiedemannTibet.html

              • In Vino

                FYI, Keepcalmcarryon, until China turned Communist, the USA recognised Tibet as the 5th province of China. “Why we Fight” is a documentary produced by the US Dept of Information during WW2. If you watch the “China” episode, you will clearly see Tibet named as China’s 5th province. (Whenever a Chinese dynasty was strong, China always ruled Tibet.)
                Unfortunately after WW2 China turned Communist. Oh dear! So capitalist USA suddenly realised that Tibet has always been and should always be a free, independent country.
                Sorry, but shades of 1984 here… (Edit -I now see Wei has beaten me to it.)

              • Bill

                The reply.

              • Keepcalmcarryon

                Go fuck yourself Bill. Racist enabler.
                Don’t moderate the troll yesterday, allow abuse, then start banning everyone else because if baiting.
                What a disgrace.

                [Good bye. Don’t come back.] – Bill

  20. eco maori 24

    There you go I agree strongly with Marxism and Engels Capitol has to be Socialise what they say about class struggle has happened for centuries and it always end in that thing I say is for idiots here’s the link

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/20/yanis-varoufakis-marx-crisis-communist-manifesto&ved=2ahUKEwj1gOuw6snaAhVKE5QKHSirCV0QFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3GkzNuAXH4NwKKpMODoreG Kia kaha he tangata Ka kite ano P.S. I have to use my Phone to post this because those pesky sandflys are at it again

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