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Open mike 20/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 20th, 2020 - 172 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

172 comments on “Open mike 20/07/2020 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Bomber struggles to get his head around it: "So, ummmmmm." https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/07/19/ummm-shouldnt-winston-be-taken-to-task-for-this-outrageous-falsehood/

    Winston a liar?? Surely not! 🤔

    "so on the 7th of July Winston was denying something he now admits to yesterday?" "Folks, Winston can’t just lie to our faces and be allowed to get way with it".

    Strikes me there's a simple explanation that would get Winnie off the moral hook: NZF hired the secret agents after the 7th and before the 18th.

    "It’s also incredibly dangerous to allow social media Brexit manipulators like Arron Banks and Andy Wigmore who used Facebook and Cambridge Analytica to become involved in NZ politics."

    Really?? Buncha snowflakes are we? Can't handle it? However Bomber does pull himself together. He reveals Winston's master plan: angry white men. The thesis is that there's

    "a large number of angry white men who don’t bother voting because they feel culturally alienated by the current paradigms of micro-aggression policing and Millennial sensibilities. This group of males are economically paranoid by their perceived lack of cultural power and whose economic anxiety clashes with being told they are the ones with the privilege."

    Facebook and Cambridge Analytica changed all this. They suddenly had hundreds of data points to know how to precisely push those angry white non voters into rage fuelled voting machines. This manipulation of white male anger become the driving force that saw Trump win, Brexit win and Scott Morrison win.

    With Crusher Collins clearly intending to trigger the same culture war hot buttons NZ First are now actively chasing, the race to trigger angry white men will see a spike in divisiveness aimed at getting a reaction out of woke Green activists which will echo resentment around social media feeds.

    If you are an alienated angry white male, watching that Woke Green activist screaming in your social media feed is all you need to support whatever they are screaming against. Will the NZ Woke take the bait? They sure as fuck will.

    So you see how this can be made to work. Get the left identified in the public mind as shrill wokeists who are totally delusional. Just a question of whether National or NZF stampede those hordes of angry white males into polling booths. Probably both.

    • I Feel Love 1.1

      The repetitive use of the word "woke" certainly helps the Brexit PR CA guys, why keep perpetrating that? I refuse to and I never hear it anywhere but here on TS & Peters & Collins. To not take the bait, stop using the word or even acknowledge it even means anything.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

        Disrespectful to BLM, since they invented it! As long as politically-correct folks embrace the term, it will maintain currency. Been in general use so many years now that there's no point trying to close the stable door – the horse has bolted!

        • Sacha

          Where have you heard anyone using it about themselves?

          • Dennis Frank

            On it's wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

            Oxford Dictionaries record early politically conscious usage in 1962 in the article "If You're Woke You Dig It" by William Melvin Kelley in The New York Times and in the 1971 play Garvey Lives! by Barry Beckham ("I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr. Garvey done woke me up, I'm gon' stay woke. And I'm gon help him wake up other black folk."). Garvey had himself exhorted his early 20th century audiences, "Wake up Ethiopia! Wake up Africa!"

            Earlier, J. Saunders Redding recorded a comment from an African American United Mine Workers official in 1940 ("Let me tell you buddy. Waking up is a damn sight harder than going to sleep, but we'll stay woke up longer.") Lead Belly uses the phrase near the end of the recording of his 1938 song "Scottsboro Boys", while explaining about the namesake incident, saying "I advise everybody to be a little careful when they go along through there, stay woke, keep their eyes open".

            The first modern use of the term "woke" appears in the song "Master Teacher" from the album New Amerykah Part One (4th World War) (2008) by soul singer Erykah Badu. Throughout the song, Badu sings the phrase: "I stay woke." Although the phrase did not yet have any connection to justice issues, Badu's song is credited with the later connection to these issues.

            To "stay woke" in this sense expresses the intensified continuative and habitual grammatical aspect of African American Vernacular English, in essence to always be awake, or to be ever vigilant. David Stovall said: "Erykah brought it alive in popular culture. She means not being placated, not being anesthetized."

            Implicit in the concept of being woke is the idea that such awareness must be earned. The rapper Earl Sweatshirt recalls singing "I stay woke" along to the song and his mother turning down the song and responding: "No, you're not."

            I wonder why his mother rendered that negative verdict. Perhaps the dude was too young at the time to be genuinely self-aware in that sense & his mum knew she had to alert him to the importance of being authentic, not just copying…

            • Sacha

              "As long as politically-correct folks embrace the term"

              Given we are talking about NZ, some examples of that embrace rather than people slagging others for it would be welcome.

              • Dennis Frank

                Good point, since it raises the question of how identity is created in identity politics. I've always seen it as self-created, but it is true that identities are socially-created via labelling.

                Since I lack experience of personal interactions with the minority group in Aotearoa that is being labelled woke by some, I can't testify to the extent to which those who marched in support of BLM here have genuinely performed the cultural appropriation of the woke label. Perhaps others here can?

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Yeah, this bit really took me back into my 1960s self: " A major task of self-development during early adolescence is the differentiation of multiple selves as a function of social context (e.g., self with father, mother, close friends) with an awareness of the potential contradictions."

                    I remember the post-adolescent phase more clearly though. Late teens had me trying to present myself consistently to others and being puzzled that doing so felt inappropriate in some social contexts. I decided to yield to those feelings, and respond to circumstances intuitively instead.

                • Sacha

                  So you are citing an 'embrace' for which you have no actual evidence? Noted.

                  • Incognito

                    You’ll see it when you believe it.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Only insofar as no evidence of repudiation has shown up in the media. If that minority feels they aren't woke, they need to start saying so!!

                • greywarshark

                  The fact that NZ adopts memes from overseas which are probably spread through social media fastest to the young ones means that overseas usage has a quick uptake here, 'woke' included.

                  Also cis – that is used as part of identity trashing.

            • McFlock

              So you have provided a link that disproves your assertion BLM "invented" the term "woke".

              Cheers. Politically correct is one thing, but you are not factually correct in that instance.

              • Dennis Frank

                Yes, I learnt that from the wiki. They recycled lingo that had become historical. So we live & learn, as usual…

                • McFlock

                  They recycled lingo that had become historical.

                  "They" being "Erika Badu" using lingo from a few decades previously, well before BLM was a thing.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Well, if a sociologist wanted to establish a causal link, he/she would ask them, eh? BLM are just as likely to report cultural transmission as the gospel according to Badu.

                    • McFlock

                      BLM are just as likely to report cultural transmission as the gospel according to Badu.

                      This would be another evidence-free assertion that assumes no crossover of any note between an album you've never heard and a movement you've got no idea about?

        • I Feel Love

          Oh right, Collins, Peters et al are addressing the BLM movement here in NZ, all clear now.

        • weka

          Disrespectful to BLM, since they invented it! As long as politically-correct folks embrace the term, it will maintain currency. Been in general use so many years now that there's no point trying to close the stable door – the horse has bolted!

          Pretty sure I explained this to you already. 'Woke' has a specific meaning in US black communities. It has a different meaning in NZ. In NZ it is now almost always used as a pejorative or tool of mocking or dismissal.

          Collins and co are using it to foster dissent and taunt the left. Lefties might be using it as shorthand but I think the word meaning is still in transition here and like others I think it's better to avoid using it at all, unless one knows how to use it in reference to BLM, which I almost never see in NZ. I don't see many lefties/liberals/progressives using it to describe themselves now, some used to.

          Haven't read Bomber's piece today, but he generally uses it to position himself and his argument in conflict with other left wing people. You might want to ask why he does that and whether it's useful.

          • Dennis Frank

            Lefties might be using it as shorthand but I think the word meaning is still in transition here

            Since language evolves. Clearly context ought to guide usage of labels.

            Gordon Campbell: “Ngati Woke” March 2020

            But he was citing Shane Jones. Sourcing the term in 19th century usage as the wiki does (re freeing slaves) suggests that to do transformational social change, one must first awaken from habitual acceptance of the status quo.

            In that sense woke as a current term does signal a generic usage outside BLM. So any attempt to limit usage is probably doomed to failure. I do agree that usage to demonise leftists is problematic – but I expect it to escalate. Group labelling is integral to identity politics. Leftists calling Trump racist fueled that fire, so no surprise rightists have called their bluff…

      • mauī 1.1.2

        Stay woke.

        • woodart

          I just woke up, but wouldnt have a clue what a woke is?some buzzword that somebody invented, that means nothing to the vast majority. use it and feel part of the crowd, or use it and feel like a tool…

        • SPC

          The righties in America use the term woke as they once used unAmerican (leftie fellow traveller/not a Christian or not white in their thinking – supporting civil rights in the south).

          Stay woke indeed.

          • Herodotus

            The meaning of words evolve, why should woke meaning remain constant, or as a few wish it to be ?
            look at a word like gay, todays usage of the word has little to do with how it was in past used.

            • Drowsy M. Kram

              Word evolution is great – those using 'woke' as a slur are asleep at the wheel.

      • Nic the NZer 1.1.3

        I did find criticism of Nationals front benches ethnic composition strange. Its clearly the parties business who it puts on its front bench, but Muller etc handled this poorly. Collins seems to have killed it off.

        This kind of reaction (rejecting the framing) to baseless criticisms should be kept in mind as the way to go.

      • Robert Guyton 1.1.4

        Talkback hosts have been pumping "woke" for some time now, with such repetitious intensity that it's clear they are trying to embed the word in the minds of their listeners so that when it's needed, the single word will trigger anger with those who become furious believing they understand exactly what the word refers to, where in fact their response is emotional and Pavlovian.

        • Sacha

          Just another tiresome import from the US righties by their unoriginal local counterparts.

          • Robert Guyton

            Judith Collins has used it already.

            • Robert Guyton

              Yesterday, Winston claimed his party is the only true Green party in Parliament.

              Stealing the self-labling of those you oppose is a common strategy nowadays.

              • Mista Smokey

                Ahhh, Winnie, my favourite Charlatan

                • Robert Guyton

                  Shane Jones must rate alongside, Mista Smokey? He's slick and loud.

                  • Mista Smokey

                    Daresay. Maybe.

                    But who's the classy one, Robbie G?

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Winston is crimped and coiffured, it's true!

                    • Tricledrown []

                      Winston maybe a handbrake vote from National supporters as they continue to implode.

                      Collins dodgy past and corroberators in Dirty politics are still players in the shadows.

                    • Mista Smokey

                      Now, this comes to mind, from a fair way back:

                      Helen Clark saying, "Every three years, Winston pops up like Rumpelstiltskin."

                    • Robert Guyton

                      It ended badly for ol' Rumpy, as I recall.

              • Stuart Munro

                Winston is green the way the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic.

            • Incognito

              And Winston, of course 😉

          • Anne

            Yet another example of a word or phrase that is forced down the throats of the population and means different things to different people. It is used by self proclaimed, trend setting leaders of political discourse who have an agenda to push which can be either Left or Right.

            As far as I can see it is mainly a tool of the Right in NZ and is being used to denigrate the Left in a DP context.

            • Sacha

              It is used by self proclaimed, trend setting leaders of political discourse who have an agenda to push which can be either Left or Right.

              I'm still waiting for an example of the term being used in NZ except to describe others..

          • joe90

            Appropriated African American vernacular used as an insult.

            Says it all, really.

            While Black folks are routinely dismissed and discriminated against because of our hairstyles and AAVE in personal and professional settings, white people profit off of our styles, wear dreads and awkwardly co-opt our words and cadences for cool-points.

            Meanwhile, white millennials will play the word on their Scrabble boards and laugh as they collect points for a word they do not use properly. People will buy “stay woke” cocktails with Red Bull, and tweet that you should “stay woke” in reference to the unfairness of the C minus they got in trigonometry. Woke will lose its Blackness, it will fade into whiteness–the same whiteness which assumed the term was just misconjugated verb, and now thinks that it makes a great descriptor for their Corgi who is nice to Black people.


            edit: this too


        • tc

          Here we go. Collins will lead a well funded campaign using all the latest tools.

          Manufacturing consent, dissent and whatever it takes to get a bigger vote.

        • Gabby

          They've worn out 'social justice warrior' and 'snoflake'.

      • SPC 1.1.5

        You must have never gone to the Daily Blog or Kiwblog. It’s used in a dispargaging way for the liberal left at both sites. At Kiwblog its just their new term for PC, at the Daily Blog its a term for those who deplatform others on social media (so the site tries to make any one woke as unwelcome as possible).

        • Tiger Mountain

          “Snowflake” and “virtue signaling” were US imports–derisive terms essentially used in one direction only, uttered by reactionaries in regards to those they wished to denigrate, usually perceived as being left.

          “Woke” however has accumulated wider usage and connotations for both left and right, and seems set to hang around longer, as did PC. No one but the out of touch, uses “PC” any more except in an ironic way perhaps. “I know its not PC…but…” does remain a BBQ favourite though for bigots about to blather some more offensive shit.

          “Woke” is offensive to me when used in the same way as “PC” was. Where perfectly just causes and actions are corralled under one label as being on the margins rather than something the mainstream need to concern themselves with.

          • SPC

            Sure the awake to injustice, rather than unaware of it, or comfortable with its continuance.

            Disparaging the woke reminds me of someone like Karl Du Fresne in MSM column or Desterre on blog saying criticism of old white male boomers is ageist, racist and sexist and they will deplatform or not vote for such people (young, coloured and female).

            One could go back to JFK's book Why England Slept (not being awake to the white racist nation's fascist threat to peace/world order) to whom on the right would be wary of the woke and why.

            • AB


              When used by those on the left it is a disapproving term for other people on the left who exhibit a vehement response to identity-based slights and injustices – but have no underlying structural analysis of how those slights and injustices arise. (Put simply: it's Marxists criticising identity politics)

              When used by those on the right, it is a generalised disparagement of everyone on the left who is annoyed by any form of injustice and has the impertinence to speak up about it with force or passion. As has been said above, it now replaces 'political correctness' and is mostly an expression of how irritated the right is by hearing anything from unimportant people who don't really count in their internalised hierarchies of humans

              When used by ordinary people – it is just fatigue at having one’s language policed by zealots looking for hidden signs of impure thoughts. Rather like post-modernist literary critics, even the faintest linguistic cloudiness can be ‘problematized’ into a thing that deserves extensive commentary leading to denunciation.

              So it’s all a complete mess

  2. Andre 2

    The Lincoln Project's tribute to John Lewis.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Spinoff reviews NZF campaign launch: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/20-07-2020/fear-and-loathing-and-john-farnham-at-winston-peters-campaign-launch/

    In the face of electoral oblivion, Peters played the hits. His proposals at the Highbrook Conference Suites may as well have been designed by a random New Zealand First policy generator. Peters argued for a limit on immigration numbers to 15,000 per year, and insisted a New Zealand First immigration minister would be a “bottom line” in any coalition agreement.

    New Zealand First was like a “rock, steadfast against the surging sea,” he said. It would ensure the country didn’t “lurch too far left, or too far right”. Instead it would be safe with Peters, the eye in a storm of attempted progress.

    Fear is a hard sell at the moment though. Most of Peters’ voting base just spent the last 12 weeks in front of the TV being reassured by prime minister Jacinda Ardern. It’s hard to present yourself as a barrier fending off the hordes of political loons when your coalition partner’s biggest selling point is its calm, steady handling of a global crisis.

    The reviewer looks for something more relevant to a brighter future, finds it lacking. I'm inclined to agree that the x factor is missing. Winston's ripe for retirement.

    • Just Is 3.1

      Winstons trying to lift the parties popularity, at the last poll of under 2% he seems to think it's because of his association with Labour and the Greens.

      I would suggest that it's because he has stymied the efforts of Labour and the Greens in their attempt improve conditions for all, not a few.

      His boasting and denials on Q&A yesterday was directed at his base, the voice of sensibility, he claims.

      • Sacha 3.1.1

        Winston also trying to persuade a couple of % of Nat voters to switch to him as a handbrake on progress. That's all he needs to do.

        • Just Is

          I wouldn't like to predict the election outcome, but I'm kinda hoping hoping NZF sits the next term on the sidelines.

          • Sacha

            As do many of us..

          • Tiger Mountain

            Heh, no shit! You are in good company Just Is. Winston helped a Labour led Govt. assume office as per MMP, then bailed.

            He has often acted more like he was actually in opposition.

      • Adrian 3.1.2

        Agree whole heartedly. Voters don't like blockers.

  4. Episode 3: BAU – shunt the exploited out of the if possible, as quickly as possible

    RSE workers: ‘Nothing will happen’


    Standard operating procedure

    • Adrian 4.1

      Not really standard OP, most RSEs are well looked after and the arseholes exploiting the minority are getting eliminated.

      In the vineyards the pay is above minimum and in most cases well above that, but the most important thing to remember is someone from Vanuatu and the like earning good money when seen on comparable basis back home are earning more like the PM does here, Marlborough vineyard work has made it possible to build hundreds of houses and start businesses in the islands, and when strife hits the islands locals here are quick to fill containers with building materials and gear and ship it up there with money raised locally.

      It is a form of foreign aid that works both ways.

      • OnceWasTim 4.1.1

        Did you actually read the item which btw has been updated since my initial post?

        And did you read the first 2 episodes? I'll concede that in most occasions the RSE workers think they're doing OK IF and WHEN they're treated OK and not as though they're some cheap alternative to local labour that they should be grateful for because some jumped up little gittus and his borderline crim mates think they're royalty who are magnanimously doing a few lesser beings a favour.

        And, when they're not treated with the respect that is their due, AND/OR being paid their entitlements, they have a right to complain – just as anyone else does.

        Their is a history to all this as you possibly well know (if you're claiming expertise in the matter) – going back a while. It doesn't JUST concern RSE workers either.

        Unfortunately, Lees-Galloway (once again) has invited the opposition a few more free hits – which is a shame, because I'm told he's relatively intelligent and a 'nice guy'. Shame he's such a shit judge of character

        • OnceWasTim

          Krekshun. 'Their is a history………' should read 'There is a history ……..'

          (Brain was going slower than my really phat arthritic fingers – as gorgeous as they are, and frankly, you pissed me off with your comment)

    • Stuart Munro 4.2

      You could almost be describing the Russian crews stranded in Lyttleton through the delinquency of Grinevich et al. Thirty years on and the only thing that has changed is that the exploitation has moved onshore.

      • Adrian 4.2.1

        How can earning 10 times the hourly rate back home and working for people who band together and support your community when disaster strikes be equated to Russian crews on Russian ships?

        • Stuart Munro

          Perhaps you were unaware of how low wages are in Russia – when the first Russian charters began operating in NZ (probably the Fletcher Sovryflot vessels), crew received the princely sum of $2 US per day – vastly more than they could have made at home.

          They were exploited, and illegally of course, with the connivance of both major parties. The vessels were required to be registered in NZ for fisheries purposes (which also sent a bit of work to local dockyards), but this also made them subject to NZ law in its entirety including minimum wage law. This was never enforced of course – both Labour and National MPs being completely onboard with slavery.

          But to answer your question – the Lyttleton vessel crews were in dispute about unpaid wages, and just as reluctant to be repatriated before they their court case was settled as Once Was Tim's RSE workers.

          In fact some kind of migrant worker ombudsman office is highly desirable, so that these very common exploitation rorts are carried through the courts to completion even if the complainants are obliged to return home, and the scoundrels responsible face the justice that at present they generally escape.

  5. Red Blooded One 5

    Road trip to and from Whangarei for me from the Far North today, Mangamuka Gorge closed, so National will probably promise to build a Tunnel through it to go with their promised Bridges /sarc National, Building a Blighted Future

    • Sacha 5.1

      Drive well. Looks hairy.

      • Red Blooded One 5.1.1

        Thanks Sacha, SH10 is open and only adds another 10min to a trip so shouldn't be a problem really, but the Gorge road does sound munted and will need a lot of money spent on it. Was really just poking fun at Nationals un-costed yet promised tunnels and bridges. Blue skies and we're drying out here now, fingers crossed.

        • Sacha

          Heard a civil defence guy on radio saying slips and washouts all over the show, warning locals to not assume the road is same as last time they drove it.

        • greywarshark

          Far North might be advantaged from using the flat bottomed coastal shipping that used to be common up there way into last century.

    • Treetop 5.2

      Do you think the Mangamuka Gorge will suffer the same fate as the Manawatu Gorge?

      As for Collin's 31b road project, the Nats when in government just cleared the slips from the Manawatu Gorge and closed the gorge road for months.

      • Sacha 5.2.1

        You mean suffer an expensive alternative route being built? Not enough farmers at either end.

  6. Andre 6

    As the Dotard of Doltistan and his Banana Republicans do their best to shatter the norms and values of functioning democracy, let's take a moment to be grateful for the relatively healthy state of our own democracy and how minor the rorts and distortions we get fired up about here really are.

    Here there really is no question that the result of the election will be respected, and any subsequent transfer of power will happen in a peaceful and orderly manner. Contrast that with the decomposing jack'o'lantern's tease of refusing to accept the upcoming election results, with the real risk of armed extremists committing violence.

    Here we go to substantial efforts to enable everyone to vote freely and that the final result fairly reflects the electorate's wishes. Contrast that with the partisan dirty tricks that are so prevalent in the US, such as voter suppression, removing polling booths, gerrymandering etc.

    All of that without even starting on the failings of sham democracies such as Russia, Zimbabwe, Syria etc where elections only exist to stoke their ruler's ego and give useful idiots elsewhere talking points to hang false equivalences and other sham arguments from.



  7. Dennis Frank 7

    Gordon Campbell explains why journalism was created: http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/07/gordon-campbell-on-the-mainstream-medias-romance-with-judith-collins/

    Forgive the preachy tone, but journalism was given its Fourth Estate privileges in order to discern who benefits from any given public policy, who’s likely to suffer the consequences of it, and what the wider repercussions are likely to be when this or that political direction is taken..

    Don't bother asking Gordon when this happened. It didn't. Only in his mind – he's a leftist, of course. Trawl through the relevant history in search of his origin myth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate

    Gordon does make an important point in his footnote, however, and readers ought to check that out! Media responsibilities to the public are imaginal/real…

    • Sacha 7.1

      You're conflating 'given privileges' with 'being created'. Nice strawman.

    • SPC 7.2

      when this happened.

      saying something does not exist if it does not have a creation date is spurious.

      Our constitution within parliament system evolved, as did the role of the so called media estate.

      • Dennis Frank 7.2.1

        Oh, true. I was just reacting to the obvious falsity of his claim. The fourth estate does seem to have become accepted as a de facto component of the privilege system – even if the proof of that remains lacking. Thus my reference to imaginal/real. The social contract, however ephemeral, does condition people, politics, even power…

    • Drowsy M. Kram 7.3

      Thanks for that link Dennis – interesting footnote from Campbell; perceptive and fun.

      "A disturbing downside of the media air kisses to Collins (for her services to news bulletins past and present) has been the skewing of the news agenda that has come in its wake. On Wednesday PM Jacinda Ardern delivered a major speech on this country’s route of re-engagement with the outside world, including a four part breakdown of the plans for handling the Covid-19 infection outbreaks that Ardern conceded would almost certainly ensue.

      However, this announcement got buried in the blizzard of Collins stories, at least one of which (“The Many Sides of Judith Collins”) consisted of one journalist asking three other journalists to share their perceptions of Collins. Meanwhile, the Australians were treating the Ardern speech as rather big news. The Melbourne Age ran it prominently on its website. So did the Sydney Morning Herald, under the headline: “‘We have a plan’: Ardern says NZ must prepare for virus resurgence."

      • greywarshark 7.3.1

        Could much of our media be regarded as infected with a sort of virus that attacks the 'little grey cells'? Perhaps some should go into isolation and spend it in thinking and reading non-fiction books that aren't Jordan Peterson's.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          "Perhaps some should go into isolation…" – like your thinking Grey; a gulag would be too good for the worst of them, IMHO. In NZ, however, we'll just have to muddle through with 'a contest of ideas'.

          Wouldn't mind so much, if only it was a fair joust, but one competitor in particular does have substantial recent form for playing dirty.

        • Robert Guyton

          Aren't you a "little grey cell", Grey?


          • greywarshark

            Keep laughing Robert it's good for the health. And funnily enough being a bit grey gives a number of characters to present, which is privately amusing at times.

  8. Muttonbird 8

    Tertiary enrolments up! This is a problem for National because it makes attacking fees-free difficult.


    Also helps with unemployment figures.

    • Imodium 8.1

      I think you will find that the Fees Free policy has had very minimal impact on the increased enrolments that the institutions are seeing because the eligibility critera for Fees Free restricts alot of learners who have previouly studied at Level 3 .

      [You have already used at least three different user names here and you don’t need to use a fourth one! We ask every commenter to pick one and stick with it. I have changed yours to the most recent (22 June 2020) user name that you seem to have used here – Incognito]

      • Incognito 8.1.1

        See my Moderation note @ 11:37 AM.

      • Muttonbird 8.1.2

        You didn't read what I wrote. I said increase enrolments would make it hard for National to attack fees-free. I didn't say increased enrolments are a result of fees-free.

    • Treetop 8.2

      Good to see free fees working for the older cohort and for potential tradies.

      • Cinny 8.2.1

        My sister is in her second year of study to be a early childhood educator, something she had never considered until fee's free. I'm mighty proud of her.

    • Just Is 8.3

      Nats hate Educating people and hate Educated people

      They'd much rather prefer to import the expertise, saying there's no one in NZ with qualifications

      The FACT is that Education is the BIGGEST LONG TERM INVESTMENT any country can make with huge long term benefits.

      • greywarshark 8.3.1

        Just Is What type of education though? I look at what we have and find it facing backwards to the 2Oth century. I just found this 2012 article by George Monbiot commenting on 'the barons', the present young dispossessed from just about everything that we all thought that WW2 fighting was for.


        To be young in the post-industrial nations today is to be excluded. Excluded from the comforts enjoyed by preceding generations; excluded from jobs; excluded from hopes of a better world; excluded from self-ownership.

        Those with degrees are owned by the banks before they leave college. Housing benefit is being choked off. Landlords now demand rents so high that only those with the better jobs can pay. Work has been sliced up and outsourced into a series of mindless repetitive tasks, whose practitioners are interchangeable. Through globalisation and standardisation, through unemployment and the erosion of collective bargaining and employment laws, big business now asserts a control over its workforce almost unprecedented in the age of universal suffrage.

        The promise the old hold out to the young is a lifetime of rent, debt and insecurity. A rentier class holds the nation's children to ransom. Faced with these conditions, who can blame people for seeking an alternative?

        But the alternatives have also been shut down: you are excluded yet you cannot opt out.

        This is what I see. So a different sort of education is needed, one that won't just reinforce the above behaviour, one that will help ameliorate the present situation, and will encourage strong, good and kind people to help each other to grow individually to largely follow their own path within the community. They might be like freemen, or husbandmen of medieval times, or guildsmen. There could be the option of leaving school at 13 and going into an apprenticeship with block courses off for learning other subjects, one of which would be humanity and philosophy, but not religion as such.

        Guilds might be the answer for us now. They could be formed on a local region basis to take on apprentices to make things for local use and work up superior types of product for sale in other regions or for export. This would apply to both males and females. https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/guilds.html

        It would pay to read about 'the Estates of the Realm and how society has been ordered in different places and ages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_of_the_realm

        There are trends in treatment and lack of opportunity for women to learn skills apart from domestic work among religious groups at present that are following medieval paths as referred to here:

        general observations about English peasant women: "A peasant woman's life was, in fact, hemmed in by prohibition and restraint." If single, women had to submit to the male head of her household; if married, to her husband, under whose identity she was subsumed. English peasant women generally could not hold lands for long, rarely learnt any craft occupation and rarely advanced past the position of assistants, and could not become officials.

        For elite woman of the medieval ages, the situation sounds similar to that available to late 20th century women – since then opportunities and conditions have changed under neolib and freemarket strictures:

        Noble women were natural parts of the cultural and political environments of their time due to their positions and kinship. Particularly when acting as regents, elite women would assume the full feudal, economic, political and judicial powers of their husbands or young heirs. These women were never prohibited during the Middle Ages from receiving fiefdoms or owning real property during their husbands' lives. Noble women were often patrons of literature, art, monasteries and convents, and religious men. It was not uncommon for them to be knowledgeable in Latin literature. For the wives of elite merchants in Northern Europe, their roles extended to commercial undertakings both with their husbands and on their own, however in Italy tradition and law excluded them from commerce.

        • Just Is

          My intent was for just basic high quality teaching from year 1 in all our schools and institutions, access for everyone, smaller classes, proper wages for those who educate.

          We know low decile schools tend to have poor outcomes for many students, is there a way to change that.

          Make sure the school buildings are fit for purpose, safe and healthy.

          Tertiary education Institutes have been commercialized, its all about profit.

          • greywarshark

            But what are we educating for? We are not teaching kids to think. Our lives have changed immeasurably and we don't have the width of learning and practice of analysis to have understanding and influence on what is happening. We have lost the 20th century, and we have had a poor batting average, we must regroup now in education, or we'll be run out. And that isn't cricket, for the oldies to give to the young ones. I have gone all sporty, time to retire for the post game cup of tea.

      • Halfcrown 8.3.2


        They don't like educated well-informed people because they will ask questions.

      • Grafton Gully 8.3.3

        "The FACT is that Education is the BIGGEST LONG TERM INVESTMENT any country can make with huge long term benefits."

        Including lifelong learning by SELF EDUCATION.

        A sense of self worth and confidence given to children by the people who raise them helps here.

        That requires a stable household income, healthy accomodation and workplaces, available healthcare and and a secure old age.

  9. Just Is 9

    Bryce Edwards on the AM Show this morning commenting on NZF and Winston


    Bryce is writing him off, but history suggests that you never know

    Bryce is very supportive of the Nats new leader, no mention of her previous "History" though.

    • Robert Guyton 9.1

      Bryce! Says it all.

    • swordfish 9.2

      I'd agree with Bryce … I think Winston's in real trouble. With inadequate Bridges & Muller in charge of the Nats, there was still an outside chance of a last-minute 2002-style resurrection for NZF (though even then, it would’ve almost certainly been a highly anaemic version of that hefty 02 swing) … but Collins' leadership might just be the final nail in the Winstonista coffin. They're certainly fighting for their electoral lives (hence, the UK Beagle Boys).


  10. Muttonbird 10

    "I've spent much of my career respecting and working for retirees. You seem to want to euthanise them."

    – Winston Peters to David Seymour

    Good contender for political quote of the year.


  11. Just Is 11

    Here's some stats for Global management of Corona Virus comparing Male Leaders to Female Leaders, quite interesting

    Just reinforces the fact of just "How Lucky We Are"


    • Muttonbird 11.1

      I remember Heather Duplicity-Allen had a mini-meltdown on air a couple of months ago about these exact observations.

      Seems she is man's woman.

      • Just Is 11.1.1

        I was going to say Women tend to be kinder at heart but then I remembered….Collins

        • I Feel Love

          I've always held my tongue because there was Thatcher, the shoe collector wife of that leader, Ismeralda? Imelda? Shipley, but not many, and generally, they don't seem to get caught up in sex scandals or sending unsolicited porn…

          • Just Is

            Imelda Marcos, wife of the Phillipines President a decade or so ago.

            There is a difference between strict and downright dishonest

  12. Observer Tokoroa 12


    Even after it's long time in Parliament, NZFirst is in fact a one person Jockey.

    The sought of stallion who knows a lot, produces a few ideas, but does not get the main ideas up and running.

    All words – and no work. Just talk. It's a real pity the Jockey has flopped.

    But then, Winston Peters believes only in himself.

    New Zealanders are not knocking on his door. They are tired. Same old words,

  13. I mentioned in the Wellington central post that Martyn 'Bomber' Bradbury appeared to have a tendency toward misogyny. He's promptly confirmed that he genuinely despises women in a childishly immature post on the Daily Blog.

    In this case, the primary object of his hate is the leader of the National Party, with another woman, Fran O'Sullivan getting a backhander too.

    No mention of where the image used came from, and unless I miss my guess, it appears to be something he has composed himself. Presumably while typing one handed.

    To save clicking through, it's a composite of Judith Collin's face under a PornHub header.



    • McFlock 13.1

      And he called it a "caption competition". Just to encourage the jerkoffs. Fucksake.

      • weka 13.1.1

        Fortunately no-one has commented on it, despite 89 views.

        It's a good example of why people, esp men, need to stop using the Karen meme now.

        • weka

          also thankfully appears not to have gone out on twitter.

          This image strikes me as misogynistic too. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come.

          • adam

            So generating death threats against female journalist isn't misogyny?

            Is it just good woke politics?

            • weka

              what are you on about adam?

              • adam

                te reo putake hit piece on a female journalist. If you have not read it, ask te reo putake he can give it to you.

                [still no idea what you are on about and I’m not willing to trawl through TRP’s posts to try and figure it out. I warned you yesterday not to do this bullshit innuendo stuff and poking at people without any real intent to communicate. You’re out for a week. Please up your game when you return – weka]

        • McFlock

          Maybe the "captions" are premoderated, and a certain bloviate didn't approve of the responses.

          • weka

            I'd forgotten they don't publish certain comments.

            You could pop over there and test it out 😈

            • McFlock

              was tempted, but don't know if they want a legit email 🙂

              • weka

                There didn't used to be any confirm email thingy.

                • McFlock

                  never actually commented there, I think. Don't read it regularly.

                  • In Vino

                    I saw the same thing on TDB, and saw Bomber as attacking the Herald's standards of journalism, in pushing Fran's positive promotion of Judith.

                    I think Bomber tends to rush in boots and all, and does not always think about how easy it is for people with different attitudes to misinterpret the bombast that he has thrown forth.

                    I don't see him as a misogynist, only as a naughty, at times over-exuberant propagandist.

  14. TRP
    Your attacks on Assange,with his arms pinned , turned my stomach
    And I was piled on for defending him

  15. joe90 15

    Another zinger.

    • I Feel Love 17.1

      Collins def gets rabid whenever she starts on "those lot at Labour" rants, she's just full of seething anger, I can't think of a counterpart in Labour or Greens. Nicky knows where the bodies are buried, he's seen the emails, I'm glad he's speaking out.

  16. ianmac 18


    National MP Andrew Falloon quits amid 'significant mental health issues'


  17. Andrew Falloon will not stand for National in the Rangitata seat
    Suicides of friends and unresolved grief, for which he has been having counselling given as the reason in a written statement. Get well Andrew.

    (Slow typing)

  18. ScottGN 20

    Stuff understands the (National) Party was alerted to some of Falloon’s behaviour, which was “unbecoming of an MP”.

    Wonder if we’ll ever find out what the behaviour was? And call me cynical but ‘mental health issues’ seems to have become a very convenient way for all political parties to shut down a potentially damaging issue.

  19. Corey Humm 21

    What are labours policies this election?

    • weka 21.1

      Probably making sure lots of people don't die and that we survive the economic recession. After that I expect they will release policy in the lead up to the election.

    • To battle corona virus and to restart the economy.. Seem to be doing ok. More later..

  20. AB 22

    The TMBS lads discuss why "lame liberals" getting excited by the Lincoln Project ads is mostly a bad thing. In short – the Lincoln Project people have power/influence and a horrible agenda.

  21. Ad 23

    The Prime Minister and Minister of Finance have today put aside $14 billion in case of a second pandemic wave.


    I lived through the oil crisis and Think Big 1977-1982, and this government response says we are in a bigger crisis than even that.

    • swordfish 23.1

      Probably a matter of when rather than if.

      I'm a veteran of the Muldoon Years myself.

      • gsays 23.1.1

        Is that a B Kliban cartoon?

        One of my favourite cartoonists, with a sometimes surreal bent.

        • swordfish

          Certainly is … my older brother brought a couple of Kliban's books of cartoons home around 1981/82 IIRR. Whack Your Porcupine & Two Guys Fooling Around with the Moon … brilliantly eccentric, irreverent & off-centre.

          Took them to College to amuse friends & one or two teachers (including the one below … which my Biology teacher thought was hilarious … though possibly borders on non-PC now):

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