Open mike 20/07/2021

101 comments on “Open mike 20/07/2021 ”

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1. Sacha 1

   20 July 2021 at 6:56 am

   Re harmful speech

   https://twitter.com/glukianoff/status/1416737342421970945
   • Cricklewood 1.1

     20 July 2021 at 7:18 am

     Well yeah, life hurts it's hard sometimes people can be arseholes and sometimes shit goes wrong.

     The saying is about teaching kids to be robust and not to worry or place to much wait on what people might say.
     • Pete 1.1.1

       20 July 2021 at 7:46 am

       Teaching kids to be robust so they can handle things, put things into perspective?

       Must have been a generation that missed out on that. You know the generation that has it that a discussion document in a draw in a government office means that in a short number of years New Zealand will be an apartheid state, there'll be two equal Parliaments running the country and Maori will own most of the land.

       The same generation which has it that we definitely won't be able to open our mouths for fear of being chucked in jail for "hate speech." Over something Dennis Frank quotes (below) from Russell Palmer:

       "At this point it's not a law, it's not an act, it's not even a bill. Instead, it's a discussion document aimed at seeking opinions before the ministry comes up with a law change".
       • SPC 1.1.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 8:23 am

         It's a drawer, not a draw that you can paint any way you like.

         A "short number of years" – you mean not while the current government is in office or any National successor.

         Given most land is privately owned or public Crown land, there is no chance Maori iwi can own most of the land.
       • McFlock 1.1.1.2

         20 July 2021 at 2:11 pm

         Well, that was an artful segue. /sarc
   • Jimmy 1.2

     20 July 2021 at 7:43 am

     The new modern versions of "sticks and stones" seems to be either:

     harden up snowflake or

     have a cup of concrete
     • McFlock 1.2.1

       20 July 2021 at 2:17 pm

       Err, if snowflakes were hard they would shatter. And still melt.

       The concrete one sounds a wee bit weird.
       • Jimmy 1.2.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 4:53 pm

         They are just sayings meaning roughly the same thing. ie. don't get hurty feelings…..a few people on this blog should take note.

         " Like water off a ducks back" is another along the same lines as don't let it get to you.

         As for the snowflake one and shattering, they're not meant to be taken too literally, else a saying like "ÿou can't have your cake and eat it too" is pretty useless. I can imagine you saying What's the point of having cake if you cant eat it !
         • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1

           20 July 2021 at 5:27 pm

           You've obviously been speaking with my dietician lol
       • arkie 1.2.1.2

         20 July 2021 at 5:05 pm

         Today Ms Bligh dismissed Mr Newman's reaction to what she called "bit of fun" while Treasurer Andrew Fraser told him to "have a cup of concrete" and harden up.

         https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/have-a-cup-of-concrete-and-harden-up-fraser-tells-newman-20110526-1f5ds.html
         • McFlock 1.2.1.2.1

           20 July 2021 at 5:26 pm

           Ah, the land of colourful phrases.
           • arkie 1.2.1.2.1.1

             20 July 2021 at 5:29 pm

             They really do have a knack for it.
2. Dennis Frank 2

   20 July 2021 at 7:18 am

   Russell Palmer of RNZ has clarified the govt hate speech law proposals here: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/proposed-hate-speech-laws-what-you-need-to-know/MVWR2D7MNZXJCD7FEUUUDQCH4A/

   "At this point it's not a law, it's not an act, it's not even a bill. Instead, it's a discussion document aimed at seeking opinions before the ministry comes up with a law change".

   "The Justice Ministry's discussion document largely focuses on the problems of the current laws and what the new laws aim to do, but – and this is perhaps one reason for the confusion – most of it largely does not give the specific wording of what is being proposed. This makes reading the document somewhat like having a set of directions without knowing where you're going to end up. However, in the second appendix is a chart which includes the six proposed changes to be made, what the current laws are like, and a section of notes on each proposal".

   He then delineates the six with admirable precision. You may have wondered about the prospect of insults producing prosecutions. Kiwi males have long been in the habit of insulting aussie males & vice versa. Sadly the prospect of such legal entertainment seems dim. The two bunches of dimwits don't seem to hate each other. To get the police prosecutor & attorney general musing over the prospect, there would have to be a threat issued: `you guys come across the ditch, we'll give you a whack around the earhole'.

   Discerning hatred will be the challenge: emotions can be evident to many, but the evidence is subjective. The only objective proof is if someone says/writes "I hate [this group]" where this group is identified by a generally-recognised cultural or ethnic label. Contempt & ridicule are mentioned. I don't hate suit-wearers, but I have viewed them with contempt since the 1960s and do express that view on a sporadic basis – but don't recall hating them since I was a teenager. Nor do I suggest that citizens eliminate the social problems they continue to cause by eliminating the offenders!

   So prosecutions are likely to hinge on a combination of behaviours & attitudes becoming evident to the authorities mentioned above. "To be considered a hate crime, communication must intentionally incite/stir up, maintain or normalise hatred using abuse, insults or threats (including inciting violence) against at least one of the groups identified in proposal 1. For a successful prosecution, it would have to include all four of these things."
   • Sacha 2.1

     20 July 2021 at 8:00 am

     Legal academic despairs.

     https://twitter.com/Publicwrongs/status/1416930574002921475
     • Dennis Frank 2.1.1

       20 July 2021 at 8:07 am

       Yeah. While paranoia is understandable in the circumstances, it ain't reasonable. Folks ought to relax & take a balanced approach. Good law will only come from consideration of all sides of the issue, then careful deliberation.
     • Forget now 2.1.2

       20 July 2021 at 8:20 am

       Another not so academic consideration is that; if NZ signs up to international treaties, we are obliged to abide by them eventually.

       But, lost in the din around the Incitement to Hatred and Discrimination discussion, is this complimentary discussion that I was barely aware of. It runs until the 6th of August too:

       Aotearoa New Zealand is home to people from over 213 different ethnic groups, who speak over 150 languages, and belong to different faith communities. About a quarter of New Zealand’s population was born overseas and about a quarter identify as disabled. We are a superdiverse nation and over the next twenty years we are expected to become even more diverse…

       Strengthening social cohesion involves changing attitudes and behaviours and is, therefore, a complex process. We need evidence-informed actions. The Government has a leadership role to play, but to make a real difference we will need to work collectively – individuals, communities and organisations across the public, private and not-for-profit sectors – from grassroots campaigns and community-led programmes right through to changes to wider policy settings and legislative safeguards. We all have a role to play.

       Social cohesion is not about making all New Zealanders the same. We want our communities to value and welcome diversity, and to be able to share and discuss different points of view in a constructive and respectful way.

       https://social-cohesion.citizenspace.com/social-cohesion/public-consultation/consultation/subpage.2021-06-24.6598578873/

       [fixed typo in user name]
       • Sacha 2.1.2.1

         20 July 2021 at 8:52 am

         Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan
         Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment

         So it's official despite the url. Interesting.
         • Forget now 2.1.2.1.1

           20 July 2021 at 10:29 am

           Yeah – that was just the page I happened to have open at the time; Sacha. I probably should have gone back a few levels for a better link.

           It is mentioned on the discussion document government published page. But is easily skimmed past. I certainly wouldn't say that the last month since these discussions were opened to the public have been Aotearoa's most impressive display of social cohesion ever.

           https://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector-policy/key-initiatives/proposals-against-incitement/#cohesion
           • Sacha 2.1.2.1.1.1

             20 July 2021 at 11:21 am

             It was at the bottom of that page. They have certainly kept it quiet.
   • Ad 2.2

     20 July 2021 at 8:19 am

     If a law is going to be that hard to enforce, and even harder to prosecute and convict, it sets itself up as bad law from the outset.
     • GreenBus 2.2.1

       20 July 2021 at 9:56 am

       It's it high bar so as not to waste time and resources chasing minor stuff.
       • Ad 2.2.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 12:50 pm

         That's just another part of the problem. That judgement lies with Police.

         Example: most rapes don't even get from Police to court, let alone conviction. And that's been on the books for a while.

         So wait until they are to start making marginal calls about group 'incitement'. Then put it to Police Prosecutions, then Crown Law. Then a public jury of ordinary folks.

         Unenforceable law should not be law.
         • McFlock 2.2.1.1.1

           20 July 2021 at 2:21 pm

           So a possible law change shouldn't be discussed if there might be marginal calls involved?
           • Ad 2.2.1.1.1.1

             20 July 2021 at 7:58 pm

             We're discussing just fine.
             • McFlock …

               20 July 2021 at 8:44 pm

               Fair call.

               In that case, your comparison with rape is off, because rape doesn't involve freedom of speech issues. It should be at a low bar.

               Setting hate speech at a higher bar is because there is an inherent conflict between the right to free speech and restricting speech that causes public harm (be it hate, porn, violence, incitement, etc).

               That doesn't make it unenforceable. It just means that any prosecutions should be a slam dunk, because what was said was well over the line.
   • SPC 2.3

     20 July 2021 at 8:49 am

     The group most hated in New Zealand since the 1993 legislation (which included no discrimination based on employment status) has been beneficiaries – which enabled the continuing poverty of the "brown" underclass. It also fed the 2005 election debate – across the board tax cuts (advantaging white men the most) or the WFF tax credits which helped poorer browner families (just not those on benefits).

     But little about that in this legislation.
     • Dennis Frank 2.3.1

       20 July 2021 at 8:56 am

       Class-based hatred is so 19th century? Hating the rich has been a thing since then too, though. However calls for violence against them, not so much…

       I do agree, however, that there's such a thing as institutionalised violence – mental, not physical, and beneficiaries were the target. Getting a court to accept such reasoning would be a fascinating legal challenge.
       • SPC 2.3.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 9:08 am

         Institutionalised violence – where a majority use its determination of policy to oppress "weaker" groups. Maori from their land, middle class law and order managing the underclass (drug use offences so much higher for some than among the middle class). Those on benefits paying back grant money out of future benefits while those with student loans borrow their living costs but do not pay anything back until they find work.

         Is public support of this institutionalised violence, hate speech, the National Party/ACT Party manifesto or social media comments by their support base?
3. Dennis Frank 3

   20 July 2021 at 7:58 am

   "GCSB Minister Andrew Little said that the foreign intelligence agency has established links between Chinese state-sponsored actors known as Advanced Persistent Threat 40 (APT40) and malicious cyber activity in New Zealand. The GCSB had "worked through a robust technical attribution process" to establish its conclusions, Little said."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/447239/government-points-finger-at-china-over-cyber-attacks

   Well okay, but since the attacks happened in March, why this now?? Spooks don't take four months to report identification of source, do they? One would think tracking a virus normally takes hours or days, not weeks or months. Are the bureaucrats sitting on the reporting process? Or is it that the govt has known the source all these months and only just now issued its delayed reaction due to some obscure diplomatic coordination requirement emanating out of Five Eyes?? I don't get it.
   • SPC 3.1

     20 July 2021 at 8:08 am

     China was suspected/blamed back in March. Now NATO-EU and Five Eyes have all concluded this was the case and said so at the same time.

     The GCSB has worked through a "robust attribution process" and if the results were different to that derived by the others we would have said so and explained why they were wrong …

     Presumably there is some signature identifying “APT40” known to the USA – whose own motive is to infer western tech vulnerability with use of Chinese suppliers (to broaden trade sanctions on security grounds).
   • Ad 3.2

     20 July 2021 at 8:22 am

     When you've seen three key industries in your big brother Australia smashed by retaliatory trade tariffs, you'd pause, get your allies in order, and then front it.

     We are now very likely to get a strong Chinese response that will affect our economy.
     • Dennis Frank 3.2.1

       20 July 2021 at 12:34 pm

       "Two hours ago, China expressed outrage at the accusations it paid criminal groups to carry out cyber hacks, including the Microsoft breach and ransomware attacks. Beijing called the claims "a huge lie," "slander" and "ridiculous," and threatened devastating consequences, according to a post in China's English-language Global Times." https://www.newsroom.co.nz/8things/furious-china-threatens-retaliation-as-nz-and-allies-blame-it-for-cyber-attacks

       Whoopee! Perhaps a covert donation to Groundswell? With a bit of belt & road advice: "give them a belting, guys, send them down the road"…
       • Ad 3.2.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 12:53 pm

         Make fun all you like, but Biden is fronting this for allies, including ourselves, who have been attacked.

         They are unified because this really is economic war — just minus the blood and body count.
   • SPC 3.3

     20 July 2021 at 2:00 pm

     A bit more context here.

     https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57889981
     • Dennis Frank 3.3.1

       20 July 2021 at 2:58 pm

       "Despite the strong language, there are no signs of fresh sanctions against China. In contrast, new sanctions were placed on Russia for the recent SolarWinds campaign which many experts believe was less serious than the Microsoft Exchange campaign linked to China."

       That's the bit from the BBC report you linked that interests me. Why does the Biden administration believe punishing Putin and not Xi is a good idea?? Or perhaps they are simply giving Xi a window of opportunity to respond first.
4. Foreign Waka 4

   20 July 2021 at 8:04 am

   So is there a proposal of wealth transfer from those who have worked all their lives to pay those 16 Billion we paid in Corporate welfare called housing equality because there is now no money for social housing?

   Many of todays 50-60 year old have not had their first house until they were 30, but now they are being taxed to make sure the 18 year old gets their foot on the property ladder because successive governments have failed to maintain and build housing?

   Another proposal from those who have never done a normal everyday wage job in their lives. How would they know what so many out there have to face. Having a government job with extended leave, sick leave, guarantied pension….hallo! I mean the majority has no such luxury. Paid for by the taxpayer no less! But they now have the audacity to espouse these theories that will affect the ones who actually contribute to the GDP of this country.

   Really? Seriously? Are they living in another world or something? The wealth divide is created by the very same governments that pay them to come up with another idea how to get the remaining middle class into a dependant poor state. You will not lift anybody up by having everybody poor.

   How about taxing those who have paid the dividends to the corporates financed curtesy of the taxpayer and will be an burden for at least 2 generations? There was some noise for a while that the fraudulent taking of the corporate support will be investigated, but no one actually believes that it will happen. Meanwhile we pay money meant for victims to the gangs. Build houses, get the money of the fraudsters and build houses for goodness sake.

   Lets stop pretending everything is just a matter of milking more from those who work and we are fine.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/125796416/tax-on-all-housing-needed-to-fix-distortion-of-social-fabric
   • Ad 4.1

     20 July 2021 at 8:27 am

     They are too late: the 10 year bright line test greatly decreases outing capital circulation other than for a handful.

     St John et at should have concentrated on IRD powers to unwind trusts. That's where 90% of our private wealth is.

     IRD are making some moves against faux charity trusts, but it's the tip of the iceberg.
     • left for dead 4.1.1

       20 July 2021 at 10:58 am

       Re: Trusts

       That is the best idea here in an age,After '87 share market crash, Gordon McLaughlin I think did an in depth analysis and wrote a large essay (maybe North and South) not sure how to link but in the interweb somewhere.
     • Foreign Waka 4.1.2

       20 July 2021 at 11:13 am

       Alternatively, you could argue that the rebuild cost plus a certain % should be the base value of any house. This would rectify the market very quickly as those houses build some 30 or more years ago would be not tradeable at 1 mil plus.

       Trusts should be taxable at all levels. Its fraud by another name.
       • At 4.1.2.1

         20 July 2021 at 12:25 pm

         Trusts with a charitable purchase disbursing well are a strong societal good.

         Arguably using a trust to protect family intergenerational wealth is also useful.

         But so many are tax minimization instruments pure and simple. They need legal attack from the state.
         • weka 4.1.2.1.1

           20 July 2021 at 12:29 pm

           Ad, can you please fix your name typo on next comment from same device
           • Ad 4.1.2.1.1.1

             20 July 2021 at 12:57 pm

             Yes apologies fat fingers
         • SPC 4.1.2.1.2

           20 July 2021 at 1:03 pm

           And arguably not. We did fine with an estate tax prior to 1991.
     • Craig Hall 4.1.3

       20 July 2021 at 2:47 pm

       That's a tough area because although IRD can be called on to judge charitable purpose for donee organisations, mostly that's handled by DIA through the Charities Service. Important work though.
   • SPC 4.2

     20 July 2021 at 8:35 am

     It's just a rehash of TOP policy (taxing equity in property ownership).

     No government would apply it, because it has the perverse incentive of encouraging people to borrow against equity to buy more property to reduce their tax liability.

     But the emotions dragged out of the home owning class at their doing anything to reduce growing inequality because of overvalued land values are just as concerning as poor policy proposals.
     • Foreign Waka 4.2.1

       20 July 2021 at 11:24 am

       The problem is if the government devalues land, a lot of banks will demand their cash straight away.

       To just have those who actually work and try to make it trough this jungle of deceit and lies pay for exactly that lot will change the next elections 100%.
       • SPC 4.2.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 11:47 am

         Not during the term of the mortgage they won't – and if the person is making (and likely to remain doing so) the repayments they will renew. A bank flooding the market with homes for sale because of a valuation downturn would destroy itself.

         You're talking about homeowners, not all workers mate.
   • Incognito 4.3

     20 July 2021 at 9:16 am

     Meanwhile we pay money meant for victims to the gangs.

     Nice misleading headline and quite befitting this silly rant of yours. Don’t let facts get in the way of a good spin, inside your head. Feeling dizzy yet?
     • Foreign Waka 4.3.1

       20 July 2021 at 11:27 am

       Gangs are just that. No other country in the world would recognize gangs as a legitimate source to deliver value for any taxpayer money spent. NONE. Good god, now we are entering the stage where the perpetrator becomes the victims keeper!
       • bwaghorn 4.3.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 12:10 pm

         Yip,that's one of the reasons I'll never qualify as a leftie, anyone who is thick enough to think that someone who rises to the top of the fucking mongrel mob is not a dishonest ,violent selfserving low life is at best a gullible fool,
         • Foreign Waka 4.3.1.1.1

           20 July 2021 at 1:06 pm

           I am very much a social democrat but this government is not, despite their assertions. Justice would be one area that does not gel very well if we give money to gangs and/or billions to companies never to be paid back under the so called honor system.

           Only naive people believe good intentions are all one needs and yet the freedom for those basics to have a framework for all has to be defended or fought for. Look at south Africa, Intentions good, outcome…not so much.

           https://library.fes.de/pdf-files/bueros/ghana/10519.pdf

           “A huge congress of the 'Socialist International' took place in 1951 in Frankfurt and the resultant declaration opposed any form of Bolshevik communism and Stalinism.”

           The call for freedom, equality, justice and solidarity originates in old humanistic thoughts. It is central for the Christian idea of man, it has been the battle-cry of the French Revolution, it is reflected in the legal foundations of the United Nations, the UN's two Human Rights Covenants of 1966, and finally it also forms the core values of social democracy.
         • Incognito 4.3.1.1.2

           20 July 2021 at 3:57 pm

           What on Earth has self-ID as Lefty got to do with the price of fish?
           • bwaghorn 4.3.1.1.2.1

             20 July 2021 at 4:38 pm

             What's fish got to do with me calling anyone a daft gullible leftie for thinking giving money to the mob is a good idea. ?
             • Incognito …

               20 July 2021 at 4:49 pm

               It is a dim-witted accusation and doubling down doesn’t it make it a better one. Do you take your cues from the same sources as Foreign Waka, by any chance, because it certainly looks that way?
               • bwaghorn …

                 20 July 2021 at 5:20 pm

                 Dimwitted ! Abuse is the last gasp of the losing side.

                 Na I did a bit of reading ,I get it that some in the police backed the idea ,plus others, and have decided all on my little lonesome that it's a fucking idiotic idea.

                 And it sure ain't making it easy being openly labour in my neck of the woods I tell ya.
                 • Incognito …

                   20 July 2021 at 5:27 pm

                   Calling out your comment as dim-witted is not abuse, but if you’re that easily offended, I’d better back off from questioning your debatable reasoning and your dubious sources.
       • SPC 4.3.1.2

         20 July 2021 at 12:13 pm

         Iran – Hizbollah in Lebanon and the Shia militias in Iraq.

         USA – countless groups many different nations (Mujahadeen, Contras etc)
       • Incognito 4.3.1.3

         20 July 2021 at 3:50 pm

         You’re entitled to your beliefs and opinions, which you seem to get straight from MSM headline writers and spin doctors who write the press releases and SM messages for National and ACT. I prefer critical analysis based on and informed by evidence although a good rant is necessary, from time to time.

         You’re so close with your “the perpetrator becomes the victims [sic] keeper!”, yet so far.
     • pat 4.3.2

       20 July 2021 at 5:25 pm

       Regardless of whether you see merit in the approach of financing the poacher to become gamekeepers it should be admitted that the optics of such a decision open up the advocates to serious questioning….and rightfully so imho
       • Incognito 4.3.2.1

         20 July 2021 at 5:34 pm

         That would be a fair comment if the questioning were less partisan and more open-minded to what this is about. So far, it is mostly reflexive stereotyping and labelling with very little analysis. Very similar to many of the ‘debates’ we seem to be having nowadays, e.g., about (the) hate speech law. I get that most of those pundits have no interest in questioning let alone challenging their own engrained biases and therefore avoid genuine debate like a gang tangi. Lazy thinkers with regressive ideas.
         • pat 4.3.2.1.1

           20 July 2021 at 5:53 pm

           And that is all bullshit…again….there must be numerous Iwi (or other) groups with less direct connections to the gangs that are crying out for that sort of funding to assist their communities.

           While the likes of the Mongrel Mob and Black Power may be SMEs in comparison to the 501 influenced multi-nationals the fact remains their business model is drugs based and this is a braindead proposition in the wider publics eyes.

           The fact this administration constantly creates sticks for its own back will be its undoing…not the competence of the opposing argument.
           • Incognito 4.3.2.1.1.1

             20 July 2021 at 6:27 pm

             Sure, it is all BS again, which makes for a compelling and persuasive judgement.

             I know that many law-abiding citizens view gangs as nothing but drug peddlers and sources of crime and misery. With such a blinkered view it is only logical and morally imperative to take a hard line on gangs, which means no State support for any gang associates and their affiliates and further demonising and excluding them from normative society. The same dim-witted thinking leaves no room for considering, even for a moment, that including gangs in approaches and strategies that could lead to better outcomes for all involved, i.e. for all society. I can understand all these things and yet not buy into the same thinking because it has not delivered much to write home about thus far except providing useful ammo for certain political ‘gangs’, their leaders, and their associates and affiliates. Maybe building a few more prisons is the right answer? Serco won’t mind 😉

             What was the Human Rights Commissioner thinking when he gave a $200 koha?? Very bad optics; he must have lost his mind …
             • pat …

               20 July 2021 at 6:48 pm

               Well I hope youre feeling happy in your superiority of thought….and therein lies the problem.

               Meanwhile in the real world…
               • Shanreagh …

                 20 July 2021 at 7:22 pm

                 Agree Pat. Giving koha is different from being given $$$$ of Govt funds. I found nothing untoward about the HRC giving koha, in acceptance of a reciprocal concept of hosting.

                 As others say the optics, at the very least of giving a gang that has caused so much damage to society access to significant govt funds, are able to be questioned and I don't blame people for doing just this.
               • Incognito …

                 20 July 2021 at 10:50 pm

                 … there must be numerous Iwi (or other) groups with less direct connections to the gangs that are crying out for that sort of funding to assist their communities.

                 Possibly, in the ‘real world’, these do exist, I wouldn’t know, obviously. But they could perhaps read this: https://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector-policy/about-the-justice-sector/proceeds-of-crime-fund/. Or maybe they did and applied, but were not approved because they didn’t meet all criteria? Or maybe they applied too late, after the deadline closed? Or maybe they didn’t apply at all for funding and then started to throw rubber gumboots? Some must have been successful though: https://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector-policy/about-the-justice-sector/proceeds-of-crime-fund/#listofinitiatives.

                 But of course, it’s all bullshit, again 🙁
   • Jimmy 4.4

     20 July 2021 at 11:15 am

     It's an envy tax. Read the comments on the article. It would be a very hard sell for any government.
5. Sacha 5

   20 July 2021 at 8:47 am

   Ugly spin

   https://twitter.com/RyanSproull/status/1417224152365207577
   • Jenny how to get there 5.1

     20 July 2021 at 10:13 am

     War-tearing Palestinians off the lands they are living on sought by Israel for settling its citizens on, would be more accurate.
6. Maurice 6

   20 July 2021 at 10:20 am

   … and where shall we be when everyone has "cancelled" everything else?

   When nobody can even talk about it!
   • Sacha 6.1

     20 July 2021 at 11:20 am

     There's always the RSA. Tears in the beers.
7. aom 7

   20 July 2021 at 11:11 am

   OH REALLY – https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/447264/act-proposes-limiting-gang-members-freedoms.

   What a load of bullshit and ignorance. History and research proves this would only fuel the problems these ACT dickwits think they would solve! Perhaps if the party of selfish tax-dodgers and rorters paid their fair share of tax, NZ could seriously begin to deal to poverty – the real problem. The only surprise is that they aren't pushing gun rights to implement the Duterte solution (/sarc).

   The greatest irony is that the announcement was made from the premises of a supplier of the county's most harmful drug!!!
   • Shanreagh 7.1

     20 July 2021 at 11:43 am

     The greatest irony is that the announcement was made from the premises of a supplier of the county's most harmful drug!!!

     There is a bit or a lot of that 'taking battle with one's own agenda' going on these days either through non-consultation on issues that are deserving of consultation, both in central and local govt or disrupting events when brave souls want to consult.

     Life's ironies abound. I suspect this undermining/battling of the ACT agenda was inadvertent.
   • greywarshark 7.2

     20 July 2021 at 11:49 am

     The ACT leader looks every day more like the mask for comedy on a theatrical stage, or the trickster in some Shakespearean play. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/60264/21-phrases-you-use-without-realizing-youre-quoting-shakespeare

     Like? "Nay, an I tell you that, I'll ne'er look you i' the face again: but those that understood him smiled at one another and shook their heads; but, for mine own part, it was Greek to me." — Casca

     Nay, if our wits run the wild-goose chase, I am done, for thou hast more of the wild-goose in one of thy wits than, I am sure, I have in my whole five. Was I with you there for the goose?" — Mercutio

     "So, again, good night. I must be cruel only to be kind. Thus bad begins and worse remains behind." — Hamlet

     The game's afoot: follow your spirit, and upon this charge cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'" — King Henry V
   • SPC 7.3

     20 July 2021 at 12:04 pm

     It's posturing shiite – their existing policy is that anyone on Job Seeker Benefit goes onto an electronic (restricted spending) card after the first 4 weeks of cash benefit (eftpos card).
   • Ad 7.4

     20 July 2021 at 1:25 pm

     This government is a idiot for seeking to suppress further 1-off territory attacks, when lage, powerful armed terror groups like Mongrel Mob are growing unchecked and attacking in towns and cities at will.

     Such misdirected nonsense from this government and Police on terror groups.
     • aom 7.4.1

       20 July 2021 at 3:27 pm

       Where do you get your information from? Pretty dodgy to say the least.

       From your comment, it sounds as thought there is only one gang in NZ and that they are armed to the gills and in the midst of a shooting war with all and sundry.

       Hate to disabuse you of your fantasies but some reading suggests the 501 seeded gangs are more heavily armed (weapons arrive with drugs from South America) and NZ's numerous other gangs are no doubt just as lethal. It also seems you work on other very misguided assumptions that are not worth addressing as it is obvious you have more than a few mind-blocks.

       By the way, when were you last terrorised by an armed Mongrel Mob Member? Was it when you didn't pay for the drugs you received or was it after you shot up their pad?
       • RedLogix 7.4.1.1

         20 July 2021 at 3:54 pm

         Odd you should mention this. Last night I was dealing with my disabled brother who has discovered a very recent bullet hole in his house. Police have told them they know who it was but no action can be taken.

         I'm still trying to work out what this means.
       • Cricklewood 7.4.1.2

         20 July 2021 at 7:38 pm

         About 20 years ago when some pissed prospects decide leave the party at the pad down the road and invite themselves into our flat and proceed to start smashing the place up.
       • Ad 7.4.1.3

         20 July 2021 at 8:13 pm

         You are just stupidly ignorant.

         Auckland's SH1 motorway was shut down by a gang gun exchange on Thursday night.

         More gang gun violence occurred in Massey yesterday.

         At least 900 people joined a gang last year – an increase of 13% on the year before.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300193448/number-of-people-joining-gangs-increased-by-at-least-13-per-cent-this-year-police-data-shows

         Since Labour came into office in 2017 gangs have recruited 2660 new members, an increase of just under 50 per cent. We now have over 8,000 – that's equivalent to the entire town of Kawerau. All facts on the record.

         Plenty of our small towns have gangs as the primary organising power of their society. Including places like Kawerau.

         Different reasons why:

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/123699877/new-zealand-gangs-on-the-rise-why-young-kiwis-are-getting-patched

         December last year there were two drive-by shootings from gangs within 24 hours – in Napier.

         Police raids on gangs have increased this year, with huge hauls and Proceeds of Crime seizures.

         They ride our streets in packs unimpeded. They are now so big that the governemnt has to employ them to manage the impact of the drugs they import.

         Targeted assassinations by gangs, using firearms, are now much more prevalent.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125565035/targeted-assassinations-becoming-more-prevalent-in-gang-scene

         You want a discussion on the impact of terrorist groups in New Zealand, start with the armed terror groups that are embedded and expanding already.
         • RedLogix 7.4.1.3.1

           21 July 2021 at 1:56 am

           Personally I regard them as outlaws. In the original sense of that word, and all that implies.
         • Muttonbird 7.4.1.3.2

           21 July 2021 at 6:29 am

           This is the product of the policy of Australia's Liberal coalition government, therefore the product of the people of Australia, and literally the product of Australian society.

           Thousands of criminals, trained by Australia, have been exported to New Zealand in the last 6 years. With them they bring sophisticated networking, fundraising and recruitment practice, all nurtured in Australia. They also bring their anger, magnified.

           NZ has become a dumping ground for the failures of a morally corrupt Australian society and this is the primary reason for an increase in organised crime violence here.

           Add to this their export of real terrorism in the form of murderous white supremacy, which we have known bubbles away in Australia under the radar since its colonisation, by criminals.
           • Ad 7.4.1.3.2.1

             21 July 2021 at 7:57 am

             Yes there's a wee bit of that. But they are our people doing this crime, our people are the criminals, and apart from the Comancheros they came back to fully formed gangs ready to expand – which they are doing big time.

             And there's no way the Ardern government isn't responsible for effectively policing them.
           • RedLogix 7.4.1.3.2.2

             21 July 2021 at 9:00 am

             You only have to look to some Latin American nations, Mexico leaps to mind, as to what happens when govts fail to police gangs.

             Two years ago I had a very interesting Mexican colleague (I think I mentioned him here in a thread before) who explained to me in detail one night over dinner, how two of his business partners were in separate incidents, both kidnapped, ransomed and murdered. We’re talking legit, tech based, middle-class professionals – specifically targeted for purely monetary gain and no other reason. Needless to say this is also the reason why he now lives in Australia.

             You will read this and feel nothing – having it retold by someone who lived through it first hand is deeply chilling. And if NZ imagines that it's immune to this kind of collapse of social moral structure it would be deluding itself.
             • Foreign Waka …

               21 July 2021 at 2:29 pm

               Frightening and so true. But it seems that our government wants to make friends with gangs. I don't think being kind will be the preferred remedy.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 21 July 2021 at 3:09 pm

                 Difficult for me to imagine a modern NZ government of any flavour being kind/friendly to individuals or groups that indulge in kidnapping or other serious crimes in NZ, but your imagination may be more 'vivid' than mine.

                 Four arrested face two kidnapping charges

                 Suspect that the NZ police and MPs are concerned about the types and level of crimes carried out by gangs in NZ, from the Mongrel Mob to triad-type and white-supremacist gangs.

                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_New_Zealand#Race-based_gangs

                 Imho those convicted of kidnapping in NZ should be made an example of – NZ kidnapping rates are too high compared to Australia.

                 https://knoema.com/atlas/New-Zealand/Kidnapping-rate
8. greywarshark 8

   20 July 2021 at 11:32 am

   A clever, amusing title to brighten the day. It's about a serious subject but just a pause for a smile before reading further.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018804301/money-for-the-mob-and-hoha-over-koha
   • Ad 8.1

     20 July 2021 at 8:16 pm

     They get paid by the market to bring the drugs in, and paid by the public to mitigate the damage of drugs.

     Pretty sweet deal.
     • greywarshark 8.1.1

       20 July 2021 at 9:16 pm

       That sums up a lot of business in NZ Ad.
       • RedLogix 8.1.1.1

         21 July 2021 at 1:59 am

         No it bloody doesn't. The fact of so many left wingers openly siding with criminal gangs who inflict nothing but misery on their own people is a testament to a dismal moral degeneracy I find very hard to understand.
         • Foreign Waka 8.1.1.1.1

           21 July 2021 at 2:31 pm

           👏
9. Chris 9

   20 July 2021 at 11:58 am

   Here's an extremely accurate description of our "inclusive" education system. The HRRT needs to fast-track hearing IHC's complaint:

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/125796031/young-lives-up-in-smoke-more-special-education-help-is-needed-at-schools
10. joe90 10

    20 July 2021 at 12:45 pm

    'Murica

    https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1416925524065148928
    • Jimmy 10.1

      20 July 2021 at 12:49 pm

      Well lets hope shooting incidents do not become that common and blase in NZ.
      • greywarshark 10.1.1

        20 July 2021 at 1:32 pm

        A gun sick nation. USA a fourth-world nation and soon emulating Nigeria probably.

        [second time removed the following text from user name: “Timely warning”]

        I haven’t done anything to my user name – don’t know why it should be different. Thanks for adjusting incognito. I see now – will do. Very timely warning eh.
        • Incognito 10.1.1.1

          20 July 2021 at 1:34 pm

          Please correct your user name next time you comment, thanks.
        • RedLogix 10.1.1.2

          21 July 2021 at 2:01 am

          Maybe some actual data would help with your comparisons.
11. Jimmy 11

    20 July 2021 at 12:52 pm

    The Auckland to Hamilton train had a bad day yesterday by the sounds of it.

    Train wreck of a commute: 'Bits of the train were bouncing down the tracks' – NZ Herald
    • greywarshark 11.1

      20 July 2021 at 1:36 pm

      No worries, we'll get it fixed and it'll go like the clappers. In the meantime a bit of the old pioneer spirit needed, and patience.

      [third and last time; removed the following text from user name: “Timely warning”]

      See my note above. Will do.
      • Incognito 11.1.1

        20 July 2021 at 1:39 pm

        [third and last time; removed the following text from user name: “Timely warning”]
    • Ad 11.2

      20 July 2021 at 2:32 pm

      That's the last time they name a service after an extinct bird.
      • Andre 11.2.1

        20 July 2021 at 2:38 pm

        The front fell off.

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