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Open mike 20/07/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 20th, 2012 - 251 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

251 comments on “Open mike 20/07/2012”

  1. Carol 1

    Ha! This happened to me when I finished paying back my student loan a couple of years back (yes some of us boomers have had student loans in recent times).

    I was pissed at the time that the student loan payments didn’t automaticallly stop being paid out of my wages each month, and it was a bit of a palaver to get it stopped, and get the over-payment returned to me.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10820825

    More than 100,000 New Zealanders have overpaid a total of $6.4 million on their student loans.

    The system has been criticised by a students association, which says graduates are overpaying their loans because the system is too hard to understand.
    […]
    After Inland Revenue is satisfied it has received all employer payment reductions, the loan and account information is correct, repayment obligations have been met and the borrower doesn’t intend to start a new loan, a letter is sent to the borrower who must:

    * Change their tax code to one that does not include the SL repayment code.

    * Tell their employer to stop any extra deductions.

    * Cancel any automatic payments set up with a bank to repay a loan.

    But, no-one told me that I had to do the above, and just twigged I was still (over)paying the loan when I saw my payslip. It took some phone calls and letters to sort it out.

    So IRD gets a little extra cash to play with for a while out of this?

    • muzza 1.1

      How does that compare to the amount of money that is not repaid each year, by those who either leave, or for whatever reason dont or cant pay their loans?

      • Uturn 1.1.1

        Might be a bit much to ask Carol to cover that herself, though. More to the point, the idea that education is a profitable business is absurd and will lead to more than just the tears that have already been spilled.

        • fnjckg 1.1.1.1

          “…..well it was a new day yesterday, but it’s an old day now.” Jethro Tull
          master-peace???
          you are a great teacher.

    • Chris 1.2

      Half of the problem is that voluntary repayment scheme where you get 10% bonus on top of any voluntary repayments. This generally means that the Inland Revenue can often not tell if your student loan is fully repaid or not.

      Also in general due to the fact that studylink holds the loan for the first year (I assume this still happens it did when I was there) it can’t really be known if your student loan is fully repaid until your tax for the year is finalised.

      It does suck that it can hurt some people but as far as I can see it actually is the simplest system. Having to change your tax code is not a very onerous task.

      (edit: changed my second example so it actually made sense)

      • Jackal 1.2.1

        Another problem is that there’s not enough jobs for graduates. If students cannot find employment after graduation, how are they expected to repay their loans?

        • Chris 1.2.1.1

          I agree that is a problem. But I’m not sure that we should be forcing students to pick courses just based on job prospects. While I’m an accountant there is only so many we need (some would reasonably argue that number is 0), however a plan where people are forced to pick degrees that lead directly to jobs you can expect a whole heap more accountants.

          There are solid arguments that any tertiary study makes a person far more well rounded and capable for any job, this applies from a BA to BSc.I remember reading studies that said a society with a high number of tertiary trained people is generally better off in pretty much every way (no link sorry). I’ve always thought we should be getting as many people as possible to complete degrees regardless of job prospects.

          Finally if they don’t have a job they aren’t expected to repay their loans. You have to earn over $19,800 before any liability kicks in

          • Dv 1.2.1.1.1

            >>Finally if they don’t have a job they aren’t expected to repay their loans. You have to earn over $19,800 before any liability kicks in

            Dont they get charged interest?

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Not ATM but NACTUF are in charge and they may decide to change that.

              • Chris

                They may but they haven’t in the 4 years they’ve had so far, so evidence would suggest they won’t

                • Draco T Bastard

                  First term was about not scaring the horses, second term is about emplacing their actual agenda which may or may not include interest charges on student loans.

                  • Chris

                    Well obviously it may or may not include interest charges. I just don’t think they will and haven’t seen anything which comes close to convincing me otherwise.

            • Chris 1.2.1.1.1.2

              Only if you are overseas – if you are living in NZ you won’t be charged any interest

          • gareth 1.2.1.1.2

            I do think there needs to be a lot more information on job prospects after course completion. I know large numbers of landscape architects get pumped out every year but with very few positions coming available. That and the graduate salaries are rubbish due to the over supply of candidates. I know 2 personally who earn about as much as a good labourer after two years in the workforce. It’s hardly enough to pay off a large student loan. I’m told the situation is somewhat similar for architecture graduates as well.

        • Vicky32 1.2.1.2

          If students cannot find employment after graduation, how are they expected to repay their loans?

          Exactly, that’s my situation as well as that of many, many others…

          • Gareth 1.2.1.2.1

            Thats why you should perhaps treat your student loan more as an investment, it could be better to study something offering better employment prospects than choosing to study for personal interest, I guess it’s a matter of deciding what you want to get out of it and going from there…

            • Vicky32 1.2.1.2.1.1

              it could be better to study something offering better employment prospects

              In my case, that’s exactly what I did, but has that helped? Not a bit of it.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2.1.2

              Or perhaps the problem is that the socio-economic system fails to cater to society.

        • Duncan Brown 1.2.1.3

          No job, no payback, no problem – until someone changes the rules

    • Vicky32 1.3

      But, no-one told me that I had to do the above, and just twigged I was still (over)paying the loan when I saw my payslip. It took some phone calls and letters to sort it out.

      The same thing happened to my son! So it seems it’s common.

      • Carol 1.3.1

        And clearly it’s been going on for a few years. IRD must know because they have to repay the overpaid amount. So why haven’t they done anything to stop it?

        • McFlock 1.3.1.1

          The same reason why student allowances took months to “be processed” when they were paid via the institution of study. It’s a few thousand dollars multiplied by possibly tens of thousands of people (some of whom might not realise they’d overpaid for years) multiplied by several months at a time, all earning money in the bank and being used as an asset to offset expenditure.
               
          c.o.c.k.s. 

          • Chris 1.3.1.1.1

            The Inland Revenue isn’t actually out to rip you off no matter what you believe.

  2. muzza 2

    The Syrian opposition: who’s doing the talking?The media have been too passive when it comes to Syrian opposition sources, without scrutinising their backgrounds and their political connections. Time for a closer look …

    For people who like to have a bit of thinking in their discussion, here is Charlie Skelton providing some angles and research links to the “big players” in the Middle East.

    Warning: not for those who like 30 second articles, to toss around their opinions with uninformed dinner guests!

    [lprent: Save the bold and/or capitals for when you actually need it to emphasize a particular phrase. Shouting all over comments just makes me want to trash the comment. ]

    • fnjckg 2.1

      “shouting”-form
      i not know how to “bold”….yet.

      • marty mars 2.1.1

        kia ora f

        This is a good place to start and I found it very useful

        FAQ

        • fnjckg 2.1.1.1

          muchas gratias; i had deleted smileys too in “sadness” melt so on way again.
          self being taught by all who comment.
          all People learning from all comments.
          (imagine ball of string and “masters” with banks of people scrolling text in, i don’t know, say, at other end of “noodle”)
          hence perspective

          Politics much about Rhetoric, bathos, pathos, comedy, tragedy, HYPERBOLE
          perspective
          Perspective
          PERSPECTIVE.
          slip into old perspective sometimes my-self.

          IMPORTANT: SEMIOTICS
          effective learning may use “scaffolding” hence Vygotsky

          i learn from others; choose teacher wisely.seeeeee PEOPLE

          i not “troll”, “shrill”, “angry”, “outraged”.
          sadness and learning: TEACH

          re “build a road and the People will come”

  3. lprent 3

    Test Message – ok editing without lightbox works
    Editing with lightbox works
    Ummm. it is displaying the url for editing and has the word editcomment at the top..
    Size is a problem

    • lprent 3.1

      Ok – lets see what is in the HTML…
      That will be more fun.
      Later – heading to work

    • lprent 3.2

      Ok according to me – you should now be able to trash your own messages and edit albeit in a rather ugly iframe (within the 8 minute timeframe)

      Functionally it is a pass. Needs some more layout and display work.

      • Jackal 3.2.1

        Hi 1prent, I was just wondering when that silly captcha to post comments is going away? I don’t see why you would need it, being that I’ve never seen any computer generated spam on the Standard. I’m also getting an annoying popup box with More Info and a silly speaker icon on it that does nothing when clicked. The cloud icon gives examples of the meaning of words on the page. What’s that all about?

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1

          I think it may be related to the move to Cloudflare.

        • lprent 3.2.1.2

          *grin* From the dashboard. Akismet does every comment entered. Since the site started.

          Akismet has protected your site from 105,241 spam comments already.
          There are 2 comments in your spam queue right now.

          61,686 spam comments have been automatically discarded by Conditional CAPTCHA.

          and Cloudflare (which looks more at where people are reading from) for the last 24 hours

          28,225 Page views
          19,024 regular traffic
          6,189 crawlers/bots
          3,012 threats

          5,405 unique visitors
          72 unique crawlers
          495 unique threats

          or the last 30 days

          1,111,982 Page views
          659,060 regular traffic
          302,557 crawlers/bots
          150,365 threats

          33,715 unique visitors
          424 unique crawlers
          4,523 unique threats

          There is a reason you don’t see it, but we get it. It is discarded before we see it. Obviously with these kinds of numbers, everything has to be automatic. Even so I had 175 spam in the spam queue that I manually cleared earlier in the week – but that was exceptional. Usually we get 10-30 per day.

          That being said – which one are you seeing?
          Cloudflare

          or
          Akismet

          Then I can figure out why you’re hitting it on your IP’s.

          • weka 3.2.1.2.1

            I’ve been getting the one with the big exclamation mark.

            • lprent 3.2.1.2.1.1

              Ok I’ll have a look at what I need to do to tone it’s paranoia down a bit.

              First pass, I have set the time before it challenges again to a week. That won’t help people much who have dialup because I think it does it on IP and often whole IP ranges for dialup are in the threats listing.

              I have also dropped the paranoia level from medium to low. I’ll track what we’re getting at that level from our existing months baseline.

              • Jackal

                I’m getting the Cloudflare one. It’s annoying mainly because the words are sometimes indecipherable. Those numbers are impressive… Looks like The Standard might have overtaken Kiwibog again in the New Zealand blogsite rankings.

                • lprent

                  Just depends what you measure and how you measure it. By the measurement we have used for the last 5 years, we’re currently (ie midwinter) at about 325k page views per month. But that is driven by JavaScript on the client page, s it misses anything that doesn’t run JavaScript. It excludes RSS and other mainly machine driven proceses.

                  That is also the system that kiwiblog and whaleoil used to use. But they have shifted to something different. It shows in the stats at Open Parachute when kiwiblog abruptly doubled in figures over a month. I suspect that they changed their stats engine and are counting RSS or they have jquery picking up pages on a timer.

                  But I prefer to measure humans, except when looking at server loadings.

          • Vicky32 3.2.1.2.2

            I’ve had the first one 100s of times (though thankfully not today). Someone screeched at me that it’s because I link whore, but it happens even when there’s no link – and all the links I put in are quoted anyway! So, why does it keep happening? I have asked and emailed and – nothing.

            • QoT 3.2.1.2.2.1

              Someone screeched at me that it’s because I link whore

              Links or it didn’t happen, liar.

            • lprent 3.2.1.2.2.2

              You’re on dial up. The cloudflare traps are all suspicious of all dialup systems (and rightly so). They are extensively used by the cheap end of the spammers.

              But I now have my baseline data, so I have dialed back the paranoia and extended the time. It should improve for you.

              I have been extremely busy. You can tell – no posts, very few comments, and very limited moderation compared to what is usual over the past 6 months. I did more from m hospital bed last year. But the back of the project has been hammered into a quiesant, friendly, bug constrained, and mallable set of programs. So long as nothing shows up in the certifications I will be back on a more normal routine from here on – at least until the next 2 year project needs my serious attention.

          • Jilly Bee 3.2.1.2.3

            Absolutely, fender and I get the very distinct impression that Councillor Brewer is positioning himself for a run at the Auckland mayoralty next year, which scares me somewhat.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2

        and edit albeit in a rather ugly iframe

        Better than not having the frame at all which is what I’ve had for the last few months.

        • lprent 3.2.2.1

          Sorry. I got busy at work and php maintenance was the last thing I was capable of doing with my head full of c++ and structure.

          I’d usually do it at work during breaks because my home workspace is crap. Too small and either too hot or at present too cold. But we move back to my apartment next month. That is a place that I know that I can work. I worked from home there for most of 11 years in one job.

        • lprent 3.2.2.2

          The actual problem (if anyone was interested) was a conflict between two different versions of jQuery being used by two different plugins including the affected one or two different versions of LightBox being used by the affected one and another one.

          One of the plugins was mine, so I just used the joys of symbolic linking. The other plugin was admin only, so I pulled it and set it aside for replacement hunting. Not sure which of those was the issue. It’d work sometimes depending on what version it loaded and cached on the client side.I had to go through several iterations of browser and server cache clearing tests before I’d get find the damn thing.

          I also had to do it on the live server because for some reason neither my workstation or laptop at home would display the problem reliably with an image of both the code and database from the server. Then I had to bypass cloudflare’s caches as well. Changing my etc/hosts to point thestandard.org.nz to direct.thestandard.org.nz allowed me to do that without disrupting anyone else.

  4. debatewatcher 4

    Message for Lynn Prentice – thanks so much for restoring the full RSS feeds! Much appreciated. Also I think the mobile version of the site is less sluggish now – did you do anything to it? Thanks again!

  5. fnjckg 5

    On! this mornings world-wide MSM, acknowledgement that russia and China in “proxy war with remainder over Syria (all prophesized, over and over and over…) in historical texts from multiple sources, scribes and priests.

    Clinton-“russia and China on wrong side of history”, ticker-tape, (yeah Right.)
    US and allies appear to be on the “wrong” side.

    Go with flow, all roads lead to China

  6. xtasy 6

    Hi there –

    I thought you guys may just like to be informed of the ‘Education Show and Tell’ event in downtown Auckland tomorrow (01 pm, 21.07.12, outside Britomart), which is published also via this link:

    http://www.facebook.com/events/233426863443947/

    Again I find NO mention of this on many forums and certainly not in the mainstream media, so apart from those who know of the Facebook page, I fear hardly anybody will be informed, hence resulting again in a feared LOW turnout.

    At least it is mentioned here now, so interested students, tutors, public members interested in attending, same as the often so “vague” and ambiguous political party membership, may also be informed and can consider going there tomorrow.

    A march up to the National Party Conference at Sky City Casino’s Covention Centre (strange “co-incidence”) is apparently planned by some to follow the event!

  7. Pascal's bookie 7

    Back in school there was this stupid list of things that humans did that ‘animals’ didn’t. Can’t remember it all, but language, tool making, planning ahead, that sort of guff.

    Idea still floats around when people talk about animals just having ‘instinct’ where humans have our blessed reason and our holy free will, dontchaknow.

    Of course, one result of this is that animals have the rights we decide they have and no more, and that it would be stupid to think that an animal could have property, for example.

    Read this:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/7314415/World-first-Gorillas-take-fight-to-poachers

    I think that as a species we’ve taken far too much of these persons’ land. We should leave them be, and more.

    • fnjckg 7.1

      Arnold Chamove (primatologist) ran a very helpful course in animal behaviour at massey,pn campus. he was an “evolved” man and encouraged exploratory learning;( people explored research from own interest from conceptualistion)

      People could learn much from Understanding animal behaviour, learning, and consciousness; way to avoiding ass-umptions, along with “Vital Lies, Simple Truths; the psychology of Self-Deception”-Goleman, or the scrolls of literature on this “subject” (is/not language a marvelous tool?)
      “i (insert People) can change the world with their own two hands”-Ben Harper
      or
      “i (People) hurt (my)self today, like i always do…”NIN or Cash

  8. bad12 8

    In todays Granny-Herald there is a link to a web-site where those of us who puff on tobacco products can have our say on such things as the rack-raising of excise taxes upon tobacco products,

    It’s an industry sponsored web-site so i wont put up a link to it as it might be seen as advertising, i am tho of the view that just as Grey Power did, the users of tobacco products need to collect their thoughts within an organization that is able to elucidate such into the political process,

    With tobacco users numbering 600,000 in New Zealand such a political voice would go some way in protecting the users of the product from measures that can be seen as revenue gathering far above the cost of the use of the product to the community….

  9. In today’s Southland Times, S Osborne attempted to support the construction of a private tourist tunnel in Fiordland National Park by claiming the impacts would be minimal. Using the Manapouri Power scheme as an example of minor impacts only displayed the ignorance of the writer.
    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/private-tunnel-impacts-on-park.html

  10. joe90 10

    Bill McKibben writes: Global Warming’s Terrifying New Math.

    Some context: So far, we’ve raised the average temperature of the planet just under 0.8 degrees Celsius, and that has caused far more damage than most scientists expected. (A third of summer sea ice in the Arctic is gone, the oceans are 30 percent more acidic, and since warm air holds more water vapor than cold, the atmosphere over the oceans is a shocking five percent wetter, loading the dice for devastating floods.)

  11. fnjckg 11

    anyWay, semiotics-Signals- the way
    in all nature, -Signals-
    organism adapts to signals; writ LARGE societies adapt to signals
    hence
    the importance of signals

    (no inter-mine-able, epistol-airy “novel”, fore that is the way of the scribes.-J

    and then
    machine designed to respond to signals too-eg, governor on internal combustion engines.
    however governor is “set” within limits by human Be-ing to be helpful to human.

    send signal to “setters” by People ie, to the left as we warm up.

    Great machine this, off into the “ball of string”
    (imagine “watchers” around “sphere”)

    “To The Left, To The Left i say…..”

  12. fnjckg 12

    last post;
    signal value
    not
    close vice

  13. fender 13

    Must only be a matter of time until Paula Bennett gets fired. If WINZ staff can be sacked for accessing confidential information then Bennett HAS to be fired for doing the same and then releasing the information to the public.

    Oh wait, it’s do as I say not as I do, silly me.

  14. Stephen Doyle 14

    I don’t know where else to be grumpy. When will central government let the elected Mayor of Auckland get on with his job without interference. All he wants to do is make Auckland actually work.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.1

      Under this government? When Aucklanders elect the mayor that this government wants us to elect.

      • Stephen Doyle 14.1.1

        This or any govt scared of a powerful Auckland?

        • fender 14.1.1.1

          This govt. would be scared of a powerful Auck. if their mates were not the ones weilding the power. Imagine the damage Banks could have done if Len hadn’t won.

          • Jilly Bee 14.1.1.1.1

            Agree with you fender and I suspect Councillor Brewer is making a very loud pitch to run for the Auckland mayoralty next year which I find pretty scary.

            • muzza 14.1.1.1.1.1

              That would be interesting, Brewer is a nasty piece of work, but a lighweight.

              If he decided to have a go, it would almost be a signal that anyone should get amongst it.

              Brewer is not popular outside of Remuera.

        • Chris 14.1.1.2

          Is your version of a powerful Auckland just one who can levy tolls or petrol taxes? Is that all it takes to make it powerful?

          • fender 14.1.1.2.1

            Auckland is powerful.

            Tolls and petrol taxes are unpopular with many and does seem unimaginative as a way to gather revenue for roading and public transport projects, but it gets the discussion started and central govt to pay attention.

            This governments ideas are likely to begin and end with Auck selling PUBLIC ASSETS to their rich buddies.

            If Banks had won mayoralty half of Auck assets would probably belong to a few rich opportunists by now, as per Keys instructions from the debunked neo-liberal bible/theft manual.

  15. Morrissey 15

    http://www.womenagainstrape.net/inthemedia/women-question-unusual-zeal-pursuing-julian-assang

    Women question the unusual zeal in pursuing Julian Assange for rape allegations
    Letters, Guardian, 9 December 2010

    Many women in both Sweden and Britain will wonder at the unusual zeal with which Julian Assange is being pursued for rape allegations (Report, 8 December). Women in Sweden don’t fare better than we do in Britain when it comes to rape. Though Sweden has the highest per capita number of reported rapes in Europe and these have quadrupled in the last 20 years, conviction rates have decreased. On 23 April 2010 Carina Hägg and Nalin Pekgul (respectively MP and chairwoman of Social Democratic Women in Sweden) wrote in the Göteborgs-Posten that “up to 90% of all reported rapes never get to court. In 2006 six people were convicted of rape though almost 4,000 people were reported”. They endorsed Amnesty International’s call for an independent inquiry to examine the rape cases that had been closed and the quality of the original investigations.

    Assange, who it seems has no criminal convictions, was refused bail in England despite sureties of more than £120,000. Yet bail following rape allegations is routine. For two years we have been supporting a woman who suffered rape and domestic violence from a man previously convicted after attempting to murder an ex-partner and her children – he was granted bail while police investigated.

    There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety. In the south of the US, the lynching of black men was often justified on grounds that they had raped or even looked at a white woman. Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

    Katrin Axelsson
    Women Against Rape

    http://www.womenagainstrape.net/inthemedia/women-question-unusual-zeal-pursuing-julian-assang

    • McFlock 15.1

      Bail is considered in relation to flight risk. Given that he’s now fled the jurisdictions of two sovereign nations, I’m not sure they went far enough.
               
      And of course it’s not really going to help the reporting, prosecution and conviction rates if prominent people are seen to swan away with no trouble. even after multiple allegations of separate offences.

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        Bail is considered in relation to flight risk. Given that he’s now fled the jurisdictions of two sovereign nations, I’m not sure they went far enough.

        Which two sovereign nations did he flee from while under arrest?

        • McFlock 15.1.1.1

          Nice insertion of words I never used, specifically “arrest”.
             
          He skipped Sweden and his arranged interview there.
          He went beyond the reach of the UK police when he lost his appeal – although I note on further reading that embassies aren’t technically the sovereign territory of the represented state. It’s just that the cops aren’t allowed in. 
              
          So you get technical points for that, I should rephrase to “fled the reach of the police forces of two sovereign nations”. My mistake.
                  
          Of course, the authorities wouldn’t have had to deal with this if he’d turned up to his interview in Sweden. You never know, he might not have been arrested for rape etc.  
                

          • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1.1

            You never know, he might not have been arrested for rape etc.

            And according to the letter printed in the Guardian, had he been arrested in Sweden there was still a 99.85% chance, on average, of being found innocent.

            Which is irrelevant to Assange, since his primary concern is extradition from Sweden to face capital crimes in the US.

            • McFlock 15.1.1.1.1.1

              “his primary concern is extradition from Sweden to face capital crimes in the US”
                   

              Yeah, right.   
               

              • QoT

                Hey now, McFlock, Sweden is, like, a known pawn of the United States. It’s the only explanation, because people with pretty haircuts like Julian Assange are incapable of raping people, even when their own lawyers pretty much admit they did.

                • RedLogix

                  If Assange was just one of many, many foreigners the Swedish routinely pursued over this sort of charge … then this would be likewise a routine matter.

                  But we know that the circumstances and nature of these extradition proceedings are for all practical purposes … unprecedented. Logically the motives here have nothing to do with the sexual allegations made against him, and everything to do with derailing Wikeileaks.

                  I thought you of all people would have understood how this ‘derailing’ thing works.

                  • QoT

                    RL, here’s the problem: Assange’s own lawyers have admitted to versions of events which are consistent with most people’s understanding of the term “rape”, and certainly with Swedish law.

                    Further, Assange’s own defenders have consistently abused the complainants, including leaking their personal information online and declaring that the whole thing is a CIA plot.

                    At some point I ask myself: how is this any fucking different to the treatment of rape vicims all the fucking time? Oh, it’s not. Except it’s supposed liberals defending a rapist (wait, no, Roman Polanski is a precedent).

                    If Wikileaks is so feeble it cannot survive the fall of one figurehead … well, then fuck Wikileaks, frankly.

                    • RedLogix

                      Yes. And if there was not the real world certainty that extradition to Sweden meant extradition to the USA (and the Swedish prosecutors have said nothing about ruling this out) … then plausibly Assange would be best advised to return to Sweden and face the Courts. That’s another problem is it not?

                      And while I have not followed the details at all; there appears a considerable range of opinions around exactly how serious these charges are and how probable a conviction would be. Lot’s of agenda’s at work here and I’m not sure whose interpretation is credible. If any.

                      And in the absence of a proper trial it is all opinion at this stage…. but of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.

                    • QoT

                      but of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.

                      I’ve determined already that he’s a rapist because his own lawyers said so.
                      http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange

                      But please, explain how pinning a woman to a bed while she’s trying to reach for a condom is totally cool and not “nonconsensual sex” or something.

                      Thanks for truly outing your misogyny, by the way. I just hope you do the same favour for any women you come into real life contact with.

                    • RedLogix

                      Ah give up on the predictable ‘misogyny’ crap QoT. That’s a lazy, sleazy tactic used by ideologues of all stripes.

                      There has not yet been a trial, nor a conviction. Therefore Assange is NOT yet a rapist. He MAY be one, and I never ruled that out. It is the job of the Courts to hear all the evidence from both sides and reach a decision. However very imperfect and biased this process is … it’s way better than ideological lynch-mobbing.

                      As I made it clear it would be best if Assange went to Sweden and faced trial. Unfortunately there are as is obvious by the wider context beyond these charges … real reasons why he should be reluctant to go there.

                      Mission accomplished … liberal wikileaks support beautifully and permanently wedged.

                    • QoT

                      of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.

                      Sorry, RL, these are kind of your exact words, right?

                      And you are aware that the good old “man-hating feminist” trope is kind of … misogynist, right?

                      Let me know if you need help with the math.

                      Also, since I am, you will be surprised to find out, not a court of law, I am quite happy to call Assange a rapist. Because he nonconsensually penetrated multiple people with his penis, and his lawyers even said so.

                      So, that “Wikileaks is too feeble to survive the fall of one figurehead” comment I made was right on the money, I see. There’s a wedge issue for you.

                    • Jackal

                      QoT

                      Further, Assange’s own defenders have consistently abused the complainants, including leaking their personal information online and declaring that the whole thing is a CIA plot.

                      There are links between the prosecution and the CIA. These are not allegations, they are verifiable facts. Any high profile case has a degree of investigation into the backgrounds of each party. I fail to see how somebodies hairstyle or the usual machinations of such cases is any sign of guilt.

                      At some point I ask myself: how is this any fucking different to the treatment of rape vicims all the fucking time? Oh, it’s not. Except it’s supposed liberals defending a rapist (wait, no, Roman Polanski is a precedent).

                      Made up your mind already? You’re correct that rape victims are often treated badly, but by the same token this is no different to how the establishment destroys the credibility of anybody it opposes. It’s not a precedent, it’s been happening for ages. Denouncing people for their political views is an American institution.

                      If Wikileaks is so feeble it cannot survive the fall of one figurehead … well, then fuck Wikileaks, frankly.

                      Fuck Wikileaks… Surely you jest? Wikileaks has been a great tool for informing the public about the underhanded tactics of the establishment by imparting information that we would not normally be aware of. To dismiss that good work just because of accusations made against one person seems rather unhinged! They’re completely separate issues.

                      Here’s what Crikey reported a few months back:

                      In summary (a detailed account is below), the near identikit police record/accusation/Amnesty report come amidst a police investigation characterised by an investigation begun peremptorily by an untrained prosecutor, dismissed the next day by a senior prosecutor, reinstated by a prosecutor known for advocating the expansion of the “s-x crimes” remit, following the involvement of former government ministers as legal counsel, the destruction and alternation of evidence by Anna Ardin, allegations of police coercion by the other complainant (Sofia Wilen), the close involvement of a police officer, Irmeli Krans, who was a political associate of Ardin’s in the initial investigation, her public commenting on the process (during prosecution), and a reprimand and investigation by the police board, and conflicting evidence of collusion between the complainants and others in subsequent witness statements to the police.

                      The correspondence between the Amnesty report and the accusation against Assange can only increase speculation that the pursuit of Assange has become politically motivated as part of the fraught politics of s-x crime in Sweden. The country has a respectable level of s-x crime prosecution — around 4.7 convictions per 100,000 people, nearly triple the Europe average of 1.8, and far in excess of some countries (Portugal’s rate is 0.5, for example).

                      However, Sweden also has one of the highest rates of inquiry about and report of s-x crimes — the rate of s-x crime reporting has gone up more than 500% since 1975. In particular, it leapt sharply when a new s-x crimes bill was introduced in 2005-6 — inaugurated by a dying Social Democrat administration, brought in by the new Moderate Party government.

                      The politics of the case aside, the question really comes down to force. Witness SW did not articulate that she wanted a condom used, and was the description she gave a part of normal sexual activity, that was consensual? Did Assange know she was reaching for a condom, because it is mere speculation that he was stopping her from acquiring protection?

                      I find it strange that you’re accusing anybody who questions the motives behind this case as misogynists. It’s somewhat detrimental to woman who make legitimate rape complaints that somebody is accused of sexism because they might defend against potentially false rape accusations.

                    • weka

                      There has not yet been a trial, nor a conviction. Therefore Assange is NOT yet a rapist.
                       

                      RL, I’m assuming you’re not denying the existence of the many women who get raped, by men, and never go to the police let alone anywhere near a court. The rapes happened, and each time some man IS a rapist, irrespective of the presence of a trial or not. 
                       
                      So if Assange raped, then he is already a rapist, and a court simply determines whether he fits a legal definition that allows the state to take action. Lack of that doesn’t make him innocent or ‘not’ a rapist if he has already raped. The courts don’t determine if someone is a rapist, the rapist does that.
                       
                      This may sound like quibbling over semantics but for the massive black hole in the middle of our world that is rape culture. Please don’t make that worse, and please choose your words with more care.

                    • QoT

                      Nah, weka, it’s all about the courts. And therefore Harvey and Jeanette Crewe weren’t “murdered” because no court has found anyone guilty of killing them. *eyeroll*

                    • Colonial Viper

                      All RL is doing is asking people not to presume guilt before a trial.

                    • rosy

                      “but of course you’ve determined already that he is a rapist. Oh well he is a male after all.”

                      RL I think you’ve missed the memo

                      A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?

                      Rapists do.

                      They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.

                      Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better.

                      And, btw Assange is the one whose made this all about him. He did a good thing with wikileaks, on the back of someone else – Bradley Manning. But he’s also done some very stupid and possibly illegal things that he needed to account for. He needs to give-up on pretending to be a superhero, he doesn’t have the character for it.

                    • weka

                      At some point I ask myself: how is this any fucking different to the treatment of rape vicims all the fucking time? Oh, it’s not. Except it’s supposed liberals defending a rapist (wait, no, Roman Polanski is a precedent).

                      Made up your mind already? You’re correct that rape victims are often treated badly, but by the same token this is no different to how the establishment destroys the credibility of anybody it opposes. It’s not a precedent, it’s been happening for ages. Denouncing people for their political views is an American institution.
                       

                      I’m not sure which QoT was specifically referring to, but IMO it’s the actions of the left that are reinforcing rape culture here as much as anything. Yes the establishment takes down its enemies, but women get that AND undermined by their own allies.
                       
                      This is old, tiresome stuff from the left. Issues that affect women are supported up to the point that they interrupt the (white) male agenda on the left, and then they get dumped, because apparently it’s too complex.
                       

                      What is so hard about acknowledging Assange for what he did for wikileaks AND acknowledging that he is (probably) a rapist?
                       
                       

                      I find it strange that you’re accusing anybody who questions the motives behind this case as misogynists. It’s somewhat detrimental to woman who make legitimate rape complaints that somebody is accused of sexism because they might defend against potentially false rape accusations.
                       

                      QoT called out RL on misogyny, quite specifically in response to something he did in this thread – he used a misogynist trope as a way of undermining her argument. It was bullshit, and I would have called him on it too.
                       
                      I don’t see QoT calling anyone who questions the motives behind this case misogynist. I see her calling anyone who displays misogyny a misogynist.
                       
                      It’s time to up your game boys. If you want to be allies with women against rape, you have to do better than this.
                       
                       
                       

                    • RedLogix

                      Rosy,

                      Well I was responding to QoT’s repeated statements that Assange is a rapist. In the absence of a conviction I was asking out loud whether that was just because he was a male.

                      Maybe growing up in the 70’s I was hit over the head with the ‘all men are rapists’ dogma once too often. \

                      Absolutely there are allegations that should be tested in Court. But we all know that this is a politically motivated case and that is the real problem you cannot ignore either.

                      weka

                      It was bullshit, and I would have called him on it too.

                      Now call QoT out on determining Assange is a rapist (that means convicted of rape) before he has been tried. That’s undermining too.

                    • weka

                      All RL is doing is asking people not to presume guilt before a trial.
                       

                      CV, that’s not all RL is doing, but did you read the link above that quotes Assange’s legal team? Here it is again, with the actual words. I’m not prejudging the outcome of a trial. I’m saying that if the descriptions from his legal team are true, then Assange is a rapist. 

                       
                      Assange’s lawyer described the sexual encounters with the two witnesses as follows, based on their statements (emphasis mine):
                      [Witness AA] The appellant [Assange]’s physical advances were initially welcomed but then it felt awkward since he was “rough and impatient” … They lay down in bed. AA was lying on her back and Assange was on top of her … AA felt that Assange wanted to insert his penis into her vagina directly, which she did not want since he was not wearing a condom … She did not articulate this. Instead she therefore tried to turn her hips and squeeze her legs together in order to avoid a penetration … AA tried several times to reach for a condom, which Assange had stopped her from doing by holding her arms and bending her legs open and trying to penetrate her with his penis without using a condom. AA says that she felt about to cry since she was held down and could not reach a condom and felt this could end badly.

                      [Witness SW] They fell asleep and she woke up by his penetrating her. She immediately asked if he was wearing anything. He answered: “You.” She said: “You better not have HIV.” He said: “Of course not.” She may have been upset, but she clearly consented to its [the sexual encounter’s] continuation and that is a central consideration.

                       

                       
                      http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange

                    • McFlock

                      And if there was not the real world certainty that extradition to Sweden meant extradition to the USA

                       
                      Why do you insist on believing Assange should be treated as innocent and Sweden should be treated as guilty?

                    • RedLogix

                      These are witness statements that his lawyers have put into the public domain weka. Are you saying that Assange’s lawyers are accepting these statements uncontested?

                      Or that Assange has pleaded guilty?

                      weka

                      RL, I’m assuming you’re not denying the existence of the many women who get raped, by men, and never go to the police let alone anywhere near a court. The rapes happened, and each time some man IS a rapist, irrespective of the presence of a trial or not.

                      But in the absence of a trial all you have is allegations. If all you have is allegations then every act of sex is potentially a rape. And who amongst us has not had sex that afterwards we regretted … at least a little bit?

                    • weka

                      Absolutely there are allegations that should be tested in Court. But we all know that this is a politically motivated case and that is the real problem you cannot ignore either.
                       

                      Not quite RL. Yes, there are obvious political motivations around Assange being targeted for his involvement in wikileaks. But can you also acknowledge that there are political motivations from the left, to undermine the intentions and credibility of the women who have made accusations against Assange, because they don’t want Assange to be undermined? Including in this thread. And that those political motivations are supporting rape culture?
                       
                      As for what is the real problem, I’d like to know why wikileaks trumps rape culture.

                    • Jackal

                      rosy

                      And, btw Assange is the one whose made this all about him.

                      What complete rubbish! The initial claims were dismissed… Despite this, the details were illegally leaked and then widely published. The case was then reopened. Do you really think Assange chose that?

                      weka

                      I’m not sure which QoT was specifically referring to, but IMO it’s the actions of the left that are reinforcing rape culture here as much as anything.

                      I fail to see where the left is “reinforcing rape culture,” by questioning the motives behind the case? In fact as somebody who finds rape abhorrent and identifies with leftwing politics, I’m highly offended by your statement.

                    • RedLogix

                      As for what is the real problem, I’d like to know why wikileaks trumps rape culture.

                      False dichotomy.

                      Wikileaks set itself against the ‘death cult’ of global hegemony and empire; of which ‘rape culture’ is an integral component. The two cannot be separated out; they are aspects of the same beast.

                      Again the whole matter would disappear overnight if the Swedes gave an assurance around no extradition to the USA.

                    • weka

                      These are witness statements that his lawyers have put into the public domain weka. Are you saying that Assange’s lawyers are accepting these statements uncontested?

                       

                      Or that Assange has pleaded guilty?
                       

                      RL, as far as I can tell Assange is not disupting the general story but is instead contesting interpretation. And his lawyers are arguing technicalities to do with differences in the legal systems in the UK and Sweden.
                       
                      You can see more here
                       
                      http://jezebel.com/5820468/julian-assange-back-in-court-now-with-less-victim+blaming
                       

                      This has been heralded in some quarters today as a tacit concession from Assange’s camp that the women weren’t lying about the events. But they’ve never officially said the women were — early on in press statements, one lawyer, Mark Stephens, painted them as honeytraps, something there’s never been any evidence of and from which Assange backtracked, saying his lawyer claimed he’d been misquoted
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       

                       

                    • rosy

                      Do you really think Assange chose that?
                      He chose not return to Sweden to answer questions from Swedish investigators. That is the crux of the matter for me – not the public arguing about whether he raped, or whether he was set up. And in making that choice he set off a circus that detracted from Wikileaks and Bradley Manning.

                    • RedLogix

                      @ weka

                      But then the same link goes on to say:

                      “After a while Assange asked what AA was doing and why she was squeezing her legs together. AA told him that she wanted him to put a condom on before he entered her. Assange let go of AA’s arms and put on a condom which AA found.”

                      So this part were he stops and puts on a condom, is this rape too? And why did you not quote the whole passage?

                      @rosy

                      That is the crux of the matter for me – not whether he raped, not whether he was set up

                      Easy for you to say. You don’t face the plausible outcome of a US military court sentencing you to life in some hell-hole. Or death.

                    • weka

                      I fail to see where the left is “reinforcing rape culture,” by questioning the motives behind the case? In fact as somebody who finds rape abhorrent and identifies with leftwing politics, I’m highly offended by your statement.
                       

                      Jackel, I accept you find rape abhorrent and you are on the left. But what is missing from your comment is that you understand what rape culture is, how it is created and sustained and that you find that abhorrent as well. If you don’t know those things then it doesn’t surprise me that you fail to see how the left is reinforcing rape culture here.
                       
                      Would you be willing to consider that there are people in this thread who have a very good understanding, analysis and working knowledge of what rape culture is, and that they know a great deal more about this than you do? If so, then there could probably be some useful dialogue and it might help to elucidate the problems in the Assange case.

                    • weka

                      As for what is the real problem, I’d like to know why wikileaks trumps rape culture.
                      False dichotomy.
                       

                      Oh I agree RL. It’s just that it’s the responses of some on the left, yourself included, that are creating that false dichotomy.

                    • rosy

                      “Easy for you to say. You don’t face the plausible outcome of a US military court sentencing you to life in some hell-hole. Or death.”

                      I’ll just go with Pascal’s bookie’s comment. I don’t feel the need to reword something that says it all imo.

                      Edit: I’d change ‘raped’ to possibly raped… that’s all. If he answered the questions, we’d know.

                    • Jackal

                      weka

                      If you don’t know those things then it doesn’t surprise me that you fail to see how the left is reinforcing rape culture here.

                      I’m failing to see that the left is reinforcing rape culture on this thread because it’s a figment of your imagination weka. Questioning the motive behind the case does not reinforce the disgusting act of rape. It is somewhat shameful to accuse people of supporting such a barbaric act just because they are open to the possibility that the claims against Assange are false and based on political motives.

                      Would you be willing to consider that there are people in this thread who have a very good understanding, analysis and working knowledge of what rape culture is, and that they know a great deal more about this than you do?

                      I’m sure there are people who have more knowledge, however this does not discount my opinion in the least. In fact it seems rather arrogant to claim that I’m ignorant in comparison, just because you don’t agree with my argument.

                      If so, then there could probably be some useful dialogue and it might help to elucidate the problems in the Assange case.

                      The “problems with the Assange case” have been well documented… Which ones do you want to discuss exactly?

                      Assange is not disupting the general story but is instead contesting interpretation. And his lawyers are arguing technicalities to do with differences in the legal systems in the UK and Sweden.

                      Interesting that you think Assange is guilty already, and then make up false claims about what his lawyers have been saying… As usual law does come down to interpretation. It is the correct interpretation of law that is important. The actual law in this regard is the Swedish chapter, which states:

                      A person who by assault or otherwise by violence or by threat of a criminal act forces another person to have sexual intercourse or to undertake or endure another sexual act that, having regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse, shall be sentenced for rape to imprisonment for at least two and at most six years.

                      This shall also apply if a person engages with another person in sexual intercourse or in a sexual act which under the first paragraph is comparable to sexual intercourse by improperly exploiting that the person, due to unconsciousness, sleep, intoxication or other drug influence, illness, physical injury or mental disturbance, or otherwise in view of the circumstances in general, is in a helpless state.

                      If, in view of the circumstances associated with the crime, a crime provided for in the first or second paragraph is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall be imposed for rape. If a crime provided for in the first or second paragraph is considered gross, a sentence to imprisonment for at least four and at most ten years shall be imposed for gross rape.

                      In assessing whether the crime is gross, special consideration shall be given to whether the violence or threat was of a particularly serious nature or whether more than one person assaulted the victim or in any other way took part in the assault or whether the perpetrator having regard to the method used or otherwise exhibited particular ruthlessness or brutality.

                      I’m a little confused with QoT’s link, being that the original quote was from one witness and not two. The question of law arises (as far as the witness statement is concerned) because Assange apparently tried to stop her accessing a condom, which RedLogix has provided further information on. It also arrises because it’s alleged Assange had sex while she was asleep.

                      There is no question concerning violence in this case, and therefore Assange is not guilty of rape as outlined in the first paragraph. Without information concerning the initial consensual sexual intercourse, and when exactly this ended, it’s hard to say whether Assange is guilty of rape as outlined in the second paragraph.

                      The judge would need to give consideration to the circumstances in general, and it’s dependent on the agreement to have intercourse. You can claim he’s a rapist if you like, but without further corroborative information I don’t to see how such a claim can be made.

              • Colonial Viper

                “his primary concern is extradition from Sweden to face capital crimes in the US”

                Yeah, right.

                Scenario 1: Instead of spending 5 years in a comfy Swedish jail when found guilty of rape, a jail where he is likely to have good meals, regular vistors and practically full internet access, Assange chooses lifetime asylum and exile in Ecuador.

                Scenario 2: Instead of being extradited to and tried for capital crimes in the US, spending many years in US federal (or even military – perhaps even Guantanamo) prisons on appeal, facing the death penalty by lethal injection the entire way, Assange chooses lifetime asylum and exile in Ecuador.

                You do the fucking math.

                • Vicky32

                  But please, explain how pinning a woman to a bed while she’s trying to reach for a condom is totally cool and not “nonconsensual sex” or something.

                  That’s what he did, hey? You know that how? You make it sound so violent and hostile, which if it was, raises the question of why she was so happy and joyfully boasting to all and sundry that he was the latest notch on her bed-post… until she found out about the other woman!

                  • QoT

                    You have previously been provided with plenty of links, Vicky. You could easily Google Assange’s lawyer’s own statements. But clearly you get some kind of warm fuzzies from abusing assault victims and sucking up to rape apologists. I shall not bother you with any more inconvenient facts, especially since you continue to never, ever back up your own statements with evidence.

                    • Vicky32

                      never, ever back up your own statements with evidence

                      And yet, and yet when I do, I am link-whoring! 😀
                      Oh, you poor stupid cow. Your link to the Zionist lawyer was hardly credible, and knowing that, I skipped your latest one. Please however, feel free to point me to where Assange’s own lawyer says that he ” pinned  a woman to a bed while she tried to reach for a condom”!
                      I know it would hurt like an acid bath for you to admit even the faintest possibility of this – but newsflash. Sometimes even women tell lies! 😀 😀 😀
                       

                    • QoT

                      If you insist, Vicky. This one last time I’ll do your homework for you.
                      http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange

                      Personally I’d be horribly embarrassed to be caught parrotting other people’s bullshit in a public forum, but you go your own way.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  The other question of course, is “is he bigger than his cause?”

                  I’m genuuinely confused as to the lengths people go to to defend Assange.

                  He is not wikileaks.

                  He is not wikileaks.

                  He is not wikileaks.

                  But he might just kill it.

                  He might end up tarnishing the idea so badly that it doesn’t get a serious try again.

                  For god’s sake.

                  If you are going to take on what wikileaks took on, you have to be serious about it. It’s either important, or it’s a hobby.

                  His admitted behaviour was appalling, and indefensible.

                  Crying about how the US want to get him and lock him up for ever or maybe kill him so therefore blah blah blah, is not a credible defence. It’s a damnation of the guy. The people wikileaks went up aginst were always going to want to get him. And look what he fucking did! Acted like a celebrity with a rockstyle james bond fetish, and raped someone. Not the best strategic play there.

                  Fuckwit as far as I’m concerned.

                  He should hand himself in. If it comes to a US trial, then there will be all sorts of arguments to made on a global stage. Those arguments would be a lot more effective for his cause if he was a sympathetic character.

                  But, look what he fucking did.

                  And you’ll note that none of the abpve is a defence of the US or a suggestion that he isn’t in the shit.

                  Just look at what he fucking did, not just at wikileaks.

                  • QoT

                    *standing ovation*

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Thanks for making it clear that you believe extradition from Sweden to the US to face charges of capital crimes there is a real risk facing Assange.

                    I believe the Swedes should guarantee Assange that they will never allow him to be transported to the US on unrelated charges. Then, Assange should go to Sweden to face the music.

                    But answer me this: why the hell should Assange risk being forcefully shipped to the US and be possibly incarcerated at Guantanomo Bay?

                    Your letter writing campaign will be a lot of comfort to him then, won’t it?

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Because he fucked up.

                      That has happened. The fuck up is fact. It’s not something that can be run away from.

                      So the question for the wikileaks style cause, if there is such a thing still existing, is how does the cause survive the fuckup. How can it be salvaged?

                      A trial of assange on trumped up charges that don’t actually fit and would potentially require the Supreme Court to either overturn the whole undertsanding of what Freedom of Speech means, or throw the charges out and therefore make wikileaks legal?

                      That might work.

                      So what’s that first question I asked?

                      “Is he bigger than the cause”

                      That’s only a question he can answer. He knew what he was taking on.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So you support the possibility Assange will be shipped to the US to face charges of capital crimes because “he fucked up”. That’s just great.

                      Nothing to do with what these women claim that he did to them, in Sweden.

                      And you believe Assange should pin his hopes (and his life) on the judgement of the US Supreme Court?

                      btw the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over military tribunals.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      I think he has to decide whether or not he is bigger than the cause. I thought I’d made that clear.

                      That choice that he has to make stems from the fact that he fucked up. He raped someone, based on what he admits, I’m calling it rape. If he wants people to stop calling it rape, he needs to get himself in court. That means he can’t hide from the US if the Swedes won’t protect him.

                      Now that’s not “just great” It’s shit. And it’s his fault. He fucked up, and this is the situation his cause is in. And now he has a decision to make. And he doesn’t seem to be making ones that are in the best interest of his cause.

                      Do you think he is bigger than the cause?

                      And, BTW,

                      “btw the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over military tribunals.”

                      is pretty weird. The USSC has ‘juristriction’ over the fucking constitution, under which it is decided whether or not military tribunals even exist.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You dodged the point. If Assange is held in the military tribunal system, he will never have a chance to be heard by the US Supreme Court.

                      So you are ok with him being transported to the US for capital crimes, with Swedish sex charges as the facilitating cover?

                      I don’t care how big Assange’s ego is, but that does not seem like justice to me.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      “So you are ok with him being transported to the US for capital crimes, with Swedish sex charges as the facilitating cover?”

                      Replace “facilitating cover” with “the plate he handed himself to them on” and you’ll be closer to what I’ve already said, more than enough times.

                    • RedLogix

                      @weka

                      Sorry this thread is getting messy to follow and reply to.

                      RL, just so I can be clear, if the statements given by the women were a true account of what happened, would you agree that it was rape, or would you consider it to be unwise actions?

                      First of all I would want to read ALL of their statements and ALL of Assange’s defence. Why do I have to convict solely on the selectively quoted statements of one party?

                      Secondly we would need to be able to define exactly what constitutes ‘rape’. For all practical purposes most people tend to think that once you have gotten willingly into the same bed with each other and you are both naked … then you have also gotten to consent.

                      I can think of many reasons why you may disagree with that, and you can feel free to put as many more layers onto the precise meaning of consent as you want. But you and I both know that sex is not such a cerebral act that you’d want it to support anything less than a fairly robust test and that works for most people.

                      Because at the other extreme of simply defining that ANY time ANY woman decides that ANY sex act was ‘unwanted’ for ANY reason is rape… is going to for all practical purposes define all men as rapists. Or at the very least no sane man would ever go near any woman ever again. (And apologies for being so hetero-normative here.. but that is the context.) Nor does any sane person demand a legal document be signed up to before each act of sex.

                      Any useful test of consent has to lie somewhere between the sheets of each extreme as it were.

                      Thirdly I don’t know of anyone who on visiting another country immediately swots up on the subtle shades of legal connotation around their sex laws. These laws vary quite widely around the world and are a very easy way to literally fuck up if you are unwary.

                      In the end it’s not my choice as to whether Assange is legally a rapist or not. That’s for a Swedish Court to decide.

                  • RedLogix

                    Which bit makes him the rapist? The ‘penetrating with penis’ or the ‘non-consensual’? The latter right?

                    So this hinges on the legal interpretation of the ‘non-consensual’ bit ..yes? Fine, so exactly where am I going wrong in wanting to see that tested in Court. Or do you have some other mechanism in mind?

                    Because while I understand that you have reached an strong conclusion based on what you have read; over the last few years I’ve read so many contradictory claims that I’m nowhere near as sure as you are. Sorry if that makes me a women-hating pig.

                  • RedLogix

                    But, look what he fucking did.

                    Hyperbole some? Sex makes fools of us all. Every single one of us have done something sexually that in hindsight was unwise. Most especially when our lives spin way out of the ordinary. This does not make him a monster, just fallible.

                    As everyone says; the best course is for Assange to face the charges in Sweden.

                    This matter could have been cleared up ages ago if the Swedes had given an iron-clad assurance that there would be no extradition to the USA. The fact that they have not is at the root of this.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      I don’t believe that the Swedes should even consider giving such an assurance to anyone.
                      Two reasons:
                      Firstly, it’s a police investigation, not a negotiation.
                      Secondly, if any nation approaches with an extradition order, each one needs to be evaluated on its merits. Because maybe someone from the US or NZ claims he raped them or did something else on his last visit to that country. And if the yanks really want to get him, they’ll try to formally extradite him simply because he’s not an anonymous Egyptian who can be “disappeared”. People are watching him, and disappearing him would be more trouble than it’s worth – and as has been said, wikileaks should be able to continue without him.
                       

                    • weka

                      Hyperbole some? Sex makes fools of us all. Every single one of us have done something sexually that in hindsight was unwise. Most especially when our lives spin way out of the ordinary. This does not make him a monster, just fallible.
                       

                      RL, just so I can be clear, if the statements given by the women were a true account of what happened, would you agree that it was rape, or would you consider it to be unwise actions?
                       
                      Here’s the descrptions again. I’m not asking you to say if Assange is a rapist, I’m asking hypothetically, if a man did those things, would you consider it to be rape?
                       

                      [Witness AA] The appellant [Assange]’s physical advances were initially welcomed but then it felt awkward since he was “rough and impatient” … They lay down in bed. AA was lying on her back and Assange was on top of her … AA felt that Assange wanted to insert his penis into her vagina directly, which she did not want since he was not wearing a condom … She did not articulate this. Instead she therefore tried to turn her hips and squeeze her legs together in order to avoid a penetration … AA tried several times to reach for a condom, which Assange had stopped her from doing by holding her arms and bending her legs open and trying to penetrate her with his penis without using a condom. AA says that she felt about to cry since she was held down and could not reach a condom and felt this could end badly.

                      [Witness SW] They fell asleep and she woke up by his penetrating her. She immediately asked if he was wearing anything. He answered: “You.” She said: “You better not have HIV.” He said: “Of course not.” She may have been upset, but she clearly consented to its [the sexual encounter’s] continuation and that is a central consideration.

                       
                      http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/07/assange
                       

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      This matter could have been cleared up ages ago if the Swedes had given an iron-clad assurance that there would be no extradition to the USA. The fact that they have not is at the root of this.

                      That doesn’t make any sense any more. The US could have extradited him from the UK. If he went to Sweden to face charges and got extradited to the US the world would know damn well that it political and have nothing to do any crime.

                      IMO, his lawyers are either advising him very badly or he’s ignoring them.

                    • RedLogix

                      @DtB

                      The US could have extradited him from the UK.

                      I’m not at all sure the UK Courts would have played ball with that.

                      If he went to Sweden to face charges and got extradited to the US the world would know damn well that it political and have nothing to do any crime.

                      Same situation Bradley is in. Hasn’t helped him any much. Once the US military get their hands on him, and especially if a Republican wins this upcoming election … there’s a plausible chance they’d execute him.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I’m not at all sure the UK Courts would have played ball with that.

                      Which would reinforce the idea that it was a political move by the US via Sweden.

                      Once the US military get their hands on him,

                      That would be an if which is becoming more unlikely by the day as, like I say, extradition from Sweden when the US could have tried extradition from the UK would just prove that it was political.

                • McFlock

                  Scenario 3: He is a narcissist who refuses to acknowledge what even his lawyers acknowledge, and instead of being forced to do that he would prefer to spend the rest of his days in a tropical country being defended by interwebz acolytes who think that because he developed a website that pissed off the US government then he either (at best) is incapable of rape or (at worst) should get away with it.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Yeah right.

                    • McFlock

                      Didn’t Ronnie Biggs spend longer on the run in Brazil than he would have spent inside?

                  • Kotahi Tane Huna

                    Everyone quoting Assange’s lawyer (Emmerson), in particular the passage where he repeats the allegations, should be aware that in the same piece of legal argument – as presented to Lord Justice Thomas and Mr Justice Ousely – see The Guardian’s article, which goes on to say:

                    “Emmerson told the court the case did not hinge on whether Assange accepted this version of events and others…”

                    So in fact, Emmerson has not accepted that the witness statements are accurate representations of events.

                    • McFlock

                      No.
                      He was arguing that even if the complaints were 100% correct, the arrest warrant was invalid so extradition should be refused. Didn’t work. Valid warrant. Another Team Assange fail.

                    • Vicky32

                      So in fact, Emmerson has not accepted that the witness statements are accurate representations of events.

                      Interesting, that! (and not what’s been claimed)

              • muzza

                Wondering how long its going to take for people to work out the wikileaks charade, complete with Assange hiding out in plush parts of London, reporting on RT, speaking out against Syria and so on.

                As usual, things are not even remotely like what they appear to be!

                • Pascal's bookie

                  Not everyone is as smart as you muzza, so why don’t you just tell us?

                  • muzza

                    Nothing to do with being smart, its simply being able to recognise shit when you look at something.

                    If anyone really wanted to get Assange, he would have been got many times over by now.

                    Enjoyed your comment on the Syria article, PB.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      If anyone really wanted to get Assange, he would have been got many times over by now.

                      NO NO NO

                      They are getting to him now

                      His value to TPTB is as a living example to others of suffering under the gun

                      “Don’t mess with us, we will make your life a living misery for years” is the message. And think of Bradley Manning.

                    • muzza

                      CV, I hear what you say, but in the Assange situation, for me, too much is out of place, its a shambles trying to pick through it.

                      Its a long way from what it seems for mine, thats about as much of a fuck I give about assange and wikileaks.

    • just saying 15.2

      sigh.

      Here we go again.

      Even if (and it’s a big if) the case was being taken advantage of by forces with a political agenda, that would certainly not prove Assange innocent of the charges.

      Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

      Women victims don’t take kindly to having their reputations and lives shredded by those who claim to represent them, in their attempts to suck up to the big boys, I suspect.

    • Vicky32 15.3

      There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety. In the south of the US, the lynching of black men was often justified on grounds that they had raped or even looked at a white woman. Women don’t take kindly to our demand for safety being misused, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

      Brilliant! Thanks for that, Morrissey…

      • Morrissey 15.3.1

        Thanks for that, Morrissey…

        My pleasure, Vicky. Not so pleasurable is to read the befuddled contributions by our friends QoT, rosy, McFlock and marty mars.

        It’s intriguing, and disheartening, to see them simply recycling what they’ve heard on talk radio and read in the “liberal” press, which has treated Assange with a hostility to facts and a level of brutal vituperation that you would have found in Red China in the 1960s or Russia in the 1930s.

        • QoT 15.3.1.1

          Yeah, we’re all just swayed by talk radio, that noted bastion of radical feminism and man-hating. WTF?

          • Morrissey 15.3.1.1.1

            Yeah, we’re all just swayed by talk radio, that noted bastion of radical feminism and man-hating.

            I think you’re more swayed by the “liberal” media, which parrot the U.S. regime’s propaganda line against Assange and Wikileaks. You probably haven’t noticed that, though.

            I imagine you think you’re superior to the oiks on talk radio. At least most of them know they’re ignorant.

            WTF?

            This baffled refrain has pretty much become your signature, my friend. Keep it—it suits you perfectly.

        • rosy 15.3.1.2

          Women question the unusual zeal in pursuing Julian Assange for rape allegations
          Letters, Guardian, 9 December 2010

          But of course you didn’t recycle a 2010 letter from the exact same newspaper I read most of the time?

          • Morrissey 15.3.1.2.1

            But of course you didn’t recycle a 2010 letter from the exact same newspaper I read most of the time?

            I printed a letter from the Women Against Rape organization. You, on the other hand, choose to parrot the editorial line of the notoriously pro-establishment, pro-war, pro-government Guardian.

            Can you see the difference?

            • rosy 15.3.1.2.1.1

              Whose editors printed that letter.

                • Morrissey

                  + 1

                  Now there’s a clever, well thought out contribution. Keep it up, my friend: the politicians need people like you.

                  • thank you

                    I find reading the arguments to be a good way to understand the issues but I do like to show support for a well made point via ‘+ 1’, however the smiley face was because in this instance I thought rosy, using minimal language, beautifully made her point.

                    • Morrissey

                      I find reading the arguments to be a good way to understand the issues

                      Could I suggest that a “good way to understand the issues” is to watch something other than what you see on British state television and read something more rigorous and honest than you see in (nominally) “liberal” corporate newspapers. You might, for instance, read Media Lens—go on, why don’t you Google it, then read it? Then come back here and post something informed on this topic instead of unwittingly rehashing government lies.

                      but I do like to show support for a well made point via ‘+ 1′, however the smiley face was because in this instance I thought rosy, using minimal language, beautifully made her point.

                      Rosy made her point using minimal language, and minimal reading, and minimal understanding. Which means that the only point she made was that she has nothing intelligent to contribute.

                      If she is serious—and to date it looks like she is not—then she will read this and think about it….
                      http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=686:incinerating-assange-the-liberal-media-go-to-work&catid=25:alerts-2012&Itemid=69

                    • “go on, why don’t you… ”

                      I did, and I enjoyed the article.

                      “and post something informed on this topic”

                      If I deem it necessary, I will.

              • Morrissey

                Whose editors printed that letter.

                Printing a letter demonstrates what, exactly? That the Guardian is a liberal and serious newspaper rather than a partisan outlet for business and government propaganda?

                • Sorry to poke my nose in but, Morrissey it demonstates whoosh or woooosh if you prefer

                  • Morrissey

                    Sorry to poke my nose in but, Morrissey it demonstates whoosh or woooosh if you prefer

                    No, I’m afraid it does not do that, marty. It demonstrates only that our friend Rosy, who no doubt congratulates herself daily that she is a “liberal”, is impressed by the fact that the “liberal” Guardian has deigned to print a letter from Women Against Rape pointing out that the campaign against Assange, which the Guardian unquestionably accepts and endorses, is politically motivated and probably entirely bogus.

                    On second thought, you could be right, actually: that whooshing sound you heard was Rosy’s credibility and integrity disappearing down the gurgler.

                    • rosy

                      Morrissey you have no idea what I read, and will notice, if you’ve read my stuff that I haven’t argued that he won’t be extradited, I’ve written that he should front up – he has questions to answer. That’s my view.

                      But anyways, the link you gave lists quotes from authors that write for the guardian who don’t support Assange’s bid for freedom (note these authors are not ‘The Guardian’ the have stuff published there – they also have stuff published elsewhere). As a quick response…
                      If searching ‘comment is free’ (where most of those authors write) in the guardian using ‘assange’ in the search box you get:

                      – Whistleblowers need our help – let’s move on from WikiLeaks bickering | James Ball
                      – Evidence of a US judicial vendetta against WikiLeaks activists mounts | Birgitta Jónsdóttir
                      – My client Julian Assange would not get a fair trial in Sweden | Per Samuelson
                      – Open door: The readers’ editor on… reporting Julian Assange’s extradition battle
                      – An appeal to Ecuador to grant Julian Assange political asylum | Open letter

                      as the first 5 headlines. Guess what – that section prints a range of views. I suggest Media Lens is selectively quoting to support it’s view (as we all do, btw). Still, a worthwhile link, so thanks for that.

        • McFlock 15.3.1.3

          Screw you, Morrissey.
          When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”, smearing the character of rape compainants and arguing they have CIA connections, using phrases like “honey trap” and looking for technical scenarios where someone waking up to find an unsheathed dick in them is not rape, you know what that looks like to me? People minimising sexual assault because that incident doesn’t mesh with what they’d like reality to be. I don’t need talkback radio to see that.
                 
           

          • Colonial Viper 15.3.1.3.1

            When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”

            Counter to your point, you’re in fact the first to bring up “sex by surprise” in this thread.

            • McFlock 15.3.1.3.1.1

              Oh, so no rape minimisation in this thread then? Good, he must be innocent then…
               

          • Morrissey 15.3.1.3.2

            We knew this was going to happen of course: the redoubtable internet warrior “McFlock” has given up on rational argument and chosen the easy way out: melting down in public. Depending on how charitable one feels toward the poor fellow, it was either quite funny or quite sad. Let’s zoom in for a closer look….

            1.) Screw you, Morrissey.

            Nice start. A stylish and thoughtful opening salutation sets the tone well and establishes the intellectual tenor of his post.

            2.) When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”

            Of course, that nonsensical, fantastical non-charge was concocted by the vengeance-driven TeamUSA, backed up all the way by its bewildered “liberal” cheer squad, which includes a few of the more bewildered regulars on this usually excellent website. But wait, there’s more! This U.S. regime-endorsing “liberal” is not finished yet. I personally enjoyed the following farrago for its (entirely unwitting) comic brio….

            3.) …smearing the character of rape compainants and arguing they have CIA connections, using phrases like “honey trap” and looking for technical scenarios where someone waking up to find an unsheathed dick in them [sic] is not rape, you know what that looks like to me?

            There is no rape complaint. Anyone with a shred of intelligence knows that. With the exception, of course, of the “liberals” who have swallowed the government-sanctioned Kool-Aid.

            3.) People minimising sexual assault because that incident doesn’t mesh with what they’d like reality to be.

            Nobody is “minimising sexual assault”. The allegations are driven by the U.S. government, and are fraudulent. You would know that if you read seriously on the topic.

            4.) I don’t need talkback radio to see that.

            I don’t believe you. Your words, and your ridiculous recycling of official lies and black propaganda is no better than what we suffer from the most cynical talk radio jocks.

            • McFlock 15.3.1.3.2.1
               
               

               
               

              1.) Screw you, Morrissey.
               
              Nice start. A stylish and thoughtful opening salutation sets the tone well and establishes the intellectual tenor of his post.

              You started it, dude.
               
               

              2.) When at every turn teamassange groupies are making shit up like “sex by surprise”
               
              Of course, that nonsensical, fantastical non-charge was concocted by the vengeance-driven TeamUSA, backed up all the way by its bewildered “liberal” cheer squad, which includes a few of the more bewildered regulars on this usually excellent website. But wait, there’s more! This U.S. regime-endorsing “liberal” is not finished yet. There’s more….

              Really? Because it seemed to come from his lawyer
               
               
               

              3.) …smearing the character of rape compainants and arguing they have CIA connections, using phrases like “honey trap” and looking for technical scenarios where someone waking up to find an unsheathed dick in them [sic] is not rape, you know what that looks like to me?
               
              There is no rape complaint. Anyone with a shred of intelligence knows that. With the exception, of course, of the “liberals” who have swallowed the government-sanctioned Kool-Aid.

               
              Seems to be probable cause without a complainant, then.
               
               

              3.) People minimising sexual assault because that incident doesn’t mesh with what they’d like reality to be.
               
              Nobody is “minimising sexual assault”. The allegations are driven by the U.S. government, and are fraudulent. You would know that if you read seriously on the topic.

                   
              Really? Because your two previous claims of fact in this comment seem to be, at the very least, debatable.
               
               

              4.) I don’t need talkback radio to see that.
               
              I don’t believe you. Your words, and your ridiculous recycling of official lies and black propaganda is no better than what we suffer from the most cynical talk radio jocks.

               
              Yeah, whatever dude. Assange developed wikileaks, so any harsh word against him comes from the black helicopter brigade. Keep maintaining that “intellectual tenor”.
               

               
    • weka 15.4

      There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety.
       

      True. Problem is, the case against Assange still needs to go through proper process, as should all rape allegations. And obviously Assange could be guilty AND his case could be being used politically, they’re not mutually exclusive.
       
      Unfortunately Katrin Axelsson doesn’t give any useful suggestions.
       
      I note the date of the letter is Dec 2010.

  16. just saying 16

    Some good news. ET has finally made it home. Joanna Black is taking up a new position as Double-Dipton’s personal apologist press secretary. And isn’t it sweet that she and her husband can help save the planet by car-pooling. After a peck on the cheek in the parliamentary foyer in the morning, each can make their way to the Top dog and the Deputy dog’s offices respectively.

    At least now we must be spared hearing the dreadful woman pretending to be a journalist on ‘the panel’.

    • Jim Nald 16.1

      Joanne on the RNZ panel? And also from Listener …

      “Finance Minister Bill English has appointed a new press secretary – Listener features editor Joanne Black. Ms Black’s husband Grant Johnston is an economic adviser to Prime Minister John Key. She will replace Grant Fleming, who is moving to Westpac. Ms Black, a former NZPA and Dominion Post journalist, takes up her role early next month.”

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7312655/Today-in-politics-Friday-July-20

      and from sometime back:
      http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/national/politics/46079/Keys-players

      • Carol 16.1.1

        What’s with Nats & Westpac? – first Simon Power, now Grant Fleming.

        Joanne Black and English?! A gruesome twosome!?

        • Jim Nald 16.1.1.1

          umm … perhaps, that could be a question to be crowdsourced to help join the dots

          to kickstart, how about …

          a common denominator is a particular bankster?

          westpac provides the government’s banking

          … ?

        • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.2

          Banksters united.

        • Jilly Bee 16.1.1.3

          Absolutely Carol – I won’t miss her editorials and her Black Page at all.

          • Morrissey 16.1.1.3.1

            I won’t miss her editorials and her Black Page at all.

            Is Joanne Black the unfunniest “humorous” writer since Helen Brown? I can think of nobody else as mirth-free.

            At least not in this country.

        • muzza 16.1.1.4

          Wespac is the governments bank…

          Expect to see Power come wheeling back into politics not many years from now.

          • mike e 16.1.1.4.1

            Power was head hunted by ANZ as their high rollers banker I thought former national Cabinet members seem to get an automatic golden parachute to one of the major banks.
            I don’t think its because of their abilities.
            But on the other hand it could be because of their PR skills(Lying ability).
            Tory trade minister was in charge of HSBC when money laundering took place.
            Like wise latest time magazine reveals John Keys Closest work mates were deeply
            involved in currency fraud.
            As usual key has denied Knowing any thing.
            Being their boss he must have known!

  17. PRIVATISATION AND INCREASED COMPETITION FOR NATURAL MONOPOLIES LIKE WATER AND ELECTRICITY REDUCES PRICES?

    BOLLOCKS!

    The evidence…..
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzt78xdczyqi1zv/A%20Tale%20of%20Two%20Networks.docx

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    • RedLogix 17.1

      Penny.

      I can personally confirm that the figures for quoted in that linked article for the GWRC Bulk Water Supply are accurate. Those remarkable numbers are the direct result of technology driving substantial productivity gains over the period in question.

      This has been achieved because the Division is run by competent, capable leaders who believe in the public interest. Instead of those gains being pocketed by the capitalists … they have been directly returned to the ratepayers of Wellington as reduced rates.

      Nothing is perfect; but the idea that somehow the private sector is always magically more efficient that the public sector is a complete and utter myth.

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1

        I’ve worked in both public and private sectors, of the two, the public sector was more efficient. The private sector was too busy cutting costs to maximise profit to be efficient.

  18. Carol 18

    So the Nats have given up on their promise to stop so many Kiwis to go to Aussie. Instead Bill (Double Dipton on a comfortable wage) wants NZ public servants who will work well for less money.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10821023

    English: Stop crying over Australia
    By Audrey Young

    […]
    “Can we stop stop them going to Australia?” he said in a speech today to the Trans Tasman Business Circle in Auckland. “No. What’s the point of standing in the airport crying about it? We’ve just got to compete.

    “They can pay more but it’s hot and there’s lots of flies. We pay less but you can go for a bike ride at lunchtime. Let’s stop being so defensive about it.”

    Mr English made the comments in the context of describing the new sort of public servant he wanted.

    It was someone who could work well for less money, who could work with others, who was adaptive, practical, disruptive, lateral thinkers and could take risks.

    “None of those are the obvious qualities of a public servant but we need to make them the core qualities of the public servant,” he said.

    Disruptive, eh? I would be too if the NAct government is intent on driving wages down.

    • RedLogix 18.1

      It was someone who could work well for less money,

      I was wondering if Sir Double Dipton was going to lead the way … by offering to work twice as hard for half the pay.

    • fender 18.2

      I’d have thought his ideal public servent would be a relative of his with a lifetime contract as consultant earning 2-3 times more than the going rate.

  19. WHO IS REALLY RUNNING THE AUCKLAND $UPERCITY COUNCIL – AND IN WHOSE INTERESTS?

    Some of you folk may be interested in this?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/auckland-council-headquarters-move-vy-124051#comment-468930
    ________________________________________________________________________________

    Any untoward conflicts of interest between those who bought this property and those from whom this property was bought?

    Where are the publicly-available ‘Registers of Interest’?

    WHO IS CHECKING?

    I did some checking.

    This is what I found…………….

    ________________________________________________

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10816011

    Council eyes $122m ASB tower for new HQ
    By Anne Gibson
    5:30 AM Thursday Jun 28, 2012

    The Auckland Council plans to buy new upmarket headquarters so it can quit a civic high-rise block tentatively earmarked for demolition.

    The council has entered private negotiations to buy the ASB Bank Centre, valued by an Australian institutional fund at $112 million, substantially upgrading it for its staff and housing many of them under one roof.
    ………………………………..

    ASB Bank Centre, 135 Albert St.
    Valued at $112 million, owned by Brookfield Multiplex
    31 levels with extensive carparking.”
    ____________________________________________________________

    http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/886938
    _______________________________________________________

    BROOKFIELD MULTIPLEX CONSTRUCTIONS (NZ) LIMITED (886938)

    Last updated on 14 Dec 2011

    Company number:886938
    Incorporation Date:17 Dec 1997
    Company Status:Registered

    Company Addresses:Registered Office
    Level 8, 66 Wyndham St, Auckland , New Zealand

    Address for service
    Level 8, 66 Wyndham St, Auckland , New Zealand
    View all addresses

    Directors Showing 2 of 2 directors

    George KOSTAS
    36 Johnston St,, Annandale, Nsw 2038, Australia ,

    Peter George WALL
    233 Beach Road, Campbells Bay, North Shore City, 0630 , New Zealand ”

    ______________________________________________

    EXECUTIVE TEAM OF AUCKLAND COUNCIL PROPERTY LTD

    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/ABOUTCOUNCIL/REPRESENTATIVESBODIES/CCO/Pages/council_property.aspx

    “Peter George Wall
    BCA – Bachelor of Commerce and Administration
    ACA – Associate Chartered Accountant

    Peter has enjoyed over 30 years in the Property industry participating in development, investment management and the acquisition and disposal of some $1.2 billion of Property assets. He has held CEO roles in public property companies, operated in UK, France and Canada and for 3 years
    was Managing Director, Property for Brookfield Multiplex in NZ and he continues to provide consulting services to this company.

    Peter is a past National President of the Property Council in NZ, President and Trustee of the North Harbour Charitable Trust, Trustee of the Graeme Dingle Foundation trust and Chair of the Harbour Access Trust which has as its responsibilities the development of the National Ocean Water Sports Centre at Takapuna and ferry services to Takapuna and Browns Bay.”

    __________________________________________________________

    hmmmmm…………………….????

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

  20. fnjckg 20

    And if one is in the mood for something apocalyptic then the film “The Road” may bring one up to speed- or alternately-the Mad Max trilogy; its all about OIL

    New Zealand Aotearoa is a seismic country, not a Fractured c.ntry

  21. chris73 21

    So has Red Alert basically given up and The Standard become the default left-wing blog of NZ?

    • QoT 21.1

      I think the Standard always was based on having a rather more diverse range of authors. And some Labour MPs seriously need to learn how to blog in that happy online-writing medium between “GIANT WALL OF POLICY TEXT” and “Short Clare Curran sentences. Something to think about. Maybe an idea?”

    • lprent 21.2

      Probably not. It looks to me like Red Alert is having one of the change of major author moments that multi-author blogs get. I haven’t read there for a while because I barely have time to read here. But Mallard and Curran appear to writing a lot less and they were the mainstays of the authors.

      We have those moments periodically as well. It is when people move off in a different direction. For instance in our case we have had major contributors like all_your_base, Tane, Steve Pierson, Marty G drop off writing for one reason or another. Others like myself or Irish or rocky and others tend to fluctuate a lot in how much we post over the years

      What usually happens is that there is a shortage of posts for a while and then the gap slowly gets filled. Provided the technical and financial framework and the readership is there, then people will tend to either start writing guestposts or get tapped as an author – usually because they want to.

      Multi-author blogs are less dependent on individuals than singleton sites. Which is why that most of the singleton sites on our blogroll appear to be moribund (last cleaned it in ummm March 2011). I need to write a page to allow people to add links for checking, and find a tcp/MD5 checker for sites that have died.

  22. Vicky32 22

    In fact as somebody who finds rape abhorrent and identifies with leftwing politics, I’m highly offended by your statement.

    Me also!
     

  23. Vicky32 23

    And in making that choice he set off a circus that detracted from Wikileaks and Bradley Manning.

    What would you choose, Rosy? The risk of Guantanamo? Maybe detracting from Wikileaks is the whole point! That’s why Assange hasn’t been ‘disappeared’ yet …
    and best of all, the self-righteous and the fanatical get to attack Assange for his sin of self-preservation?

    • bad12 23.1

      Red Logix comment at 11.28 sort of throws a bit of a spanner in the works,it’s funny what some people will try and do with half a description of an event, add the other half of the statement tho and we have something entirely different,

      Perhaps the Assange is a rapist side of the debate believe this to be so because he and the supposed victim didn’t sit down and compose and sign a 32 page mission statement outlining the full proceedings of matters that would happen in the bedroom that night,

      Other than that if what Red Logix comented at 11.29 is in fact ‘fact’ then i cannot see where rape has occurred, damn i must be part of the problem too then…

  24. Vicky32 24

    So this part were he stops and puts on a condom, is this rape too? And why did you not quote the whole passage?

    Excellent point, RL!
     

  25. weka 25

    I’m probably not going to reply to any more posts upthread because it’s getting too difficult to follow TS thread format. But I did want to say a few things.
     
    It’s become increasingly obvious that the issues around the Assange case are convoluted to talk about because some of the men here don’t think that what was described constitutes rape. That is different from believing it is rape but that it didn’t happen. I just think that people should be honest and upfront about this at the start. Otherwise the issues all get mixed up.
     
    I also think it would be useful to be upfront because some men seem to have alot of difficulty understanding what constitutes consent and what rape actually is. By this I mean there appears to be alot of confusion. And if we were upfront about it maybe we could clear up some of the confusion.

    • RedLogix 25.1

      Well I do not think it was rape. I’m not an expert on the case so there may well be details I have not read and I reserve the right to change my mind.

      Assange may well have been rather too self-absorbed for his own good, and who would not be given the enormous circus that was going on around him? None of us are so immune to our own egos that when thrust into such an extraordinary situation that we might well find ourselves off-centre.

      Assange’s in a new country with more than one attractive women taking her clothes off and getting into bed with him Willingly. In my own life any time I have found myself with a new partner, especially when in another country, that the entire negotiation process is deeply fraught with the potential for misunderstanding. So yes things may well have gone awry for a moment or two.

      And when he finally twigs as to what is going on he stops and puts on a condom as requested.

      Nah…

      • weka 25.1.1

        Thanks RL. Your last couple of comments raise some important issues. It’s getting late, so another time I think.

      • just saying 25.1.2

        I don’t know if this thread has become obsolete, but I wanted to respond to this comment RL

        1. I suspect that the reason both complainants didn’t end up blaming themselves, or, given the ambiguities inherent in the situation, allowing Assange the benefit of the doubt in regard to the deliberateness of his actions, was that when they compared stories the full picture made it clear that Assange really had been trying to force unprotected sex on them despite clearly knowing that intercourse without a condom was against their wills.

        2. An alternative interpretation of the situation with the first woman: Assange clearly knew that the complainant was trying to reach for a condom, and that she was physically resisting penetration to prevent unsheathed intercourse in response to Assange using physical force to try and impose his will. The reason he eventually stopped this and asked what was wrong, was that given the strength of her physical resistance, in order to force intercourse he would need to notch-up the violence to a level where he would lose ‘plausible deniability’, ie he’d have to hit her or something.

        3 With the second complainant, Assange was unable to persuade her to forgo a condom during consensual intercourse the previous evening. (Her former partner has said that she was always adamant about condom-use and that she had never had intercourse without one prior to Assange).* However, when she was asleep she couldn’t refuse, and once he was “in” the damage was done, and she was highly likely to allow him to continue. Apart from anything else, no-one does their best thinking two seconds after waking up.

        *I’m busy today and shouldn’t be writing this,. I’ll dig out a link for this if anyone wants me to when I get back this afternoon.

    • bad12 25.2

      OK but you go first then, but first tell me, i read the piece from the victim AA’s statement someone put up as a comment right,

      Now it took a while but Red Logix at 11.28 posted a later paragraph of that statement and what i want to know does your view still hold after reading the paragraph Red Logix put into the debate from the victim AA that Assange is definitely a rapist,(in the case of victim AA)???…

      • weka 25.2.1

        Bad, I have no idea what you are talking about. You will have to link to posts (use the date in blue as the link), or quote in the whole.

        • bad12 25.2.1.1

          Gee i am a self taught computer illiterate,no i didnt teach myself to be illiterate that’s one of my natural skills,

          OK,having side stepped the issue of having to post specific links here’s what was initially posted from victim aa’s statement,(in my words), basically Her and Assange got naked on a bed and while Assange is trying to have sex with Her, She is trying to hold Him off and reach for the condoms all the while keeping her legs crossed,

          OK, everyone seemingly based on that piece of the statement is saying Assange is a rapist,

          But,

          At 11.29 tonight RedLogix posted the next paragraph of the statement in which the victim then says that Assange stopped trying to have sex with Her and asked why She had Her legs crossed and when She told Assange that she wanted Him to use a condom He let go of Her arms and She grabbed the condoms,

          SO,where’s the rape???…

      • McFlock 25.2.2

        Personally? Nah, that’d  just be the molestation and coercion charges.
        For me, the rape is having unprotected sex with a sleeping woman.

  26. RedLogix 26

    For me, the rape is having unprotected sex with a sleeping woman.

    More an act of stupidity than criminality. (And it’s not like he sneaked into her room and into her bed unaware as your context suggests.) It may well carry a criminal charge of a lessor degree than rape in Sweden, but to call this rape veers off into the dreaded deserts of trivialisation.

    Still if everyone who had done something stupid during sex had been convicted and sentenced to prison for it … the world would be a much better place. No?

    • McFlock 26.1

      Regardless of whether you argue implied consent for sex in the situation, the failure to use a condom is blatantly removing the ability to refuse consent for unprotected sex.
          
      Similarly, in the case of AA his actions do seem to be towards overruling his partner’s control over what happens to her body.
          
      Yes, many of us have done “something stupid during sex”. But a pattern of overruling the bounds of one’s partners’ consent probably is something that people should go to court for. It’s not a charming peccadillo like having a pet name for one’s willy..

    • RedLogix 26.2

      I never suggested it was ‘charming pecadillo’ either.

      I guess I’m just deeply uncomfortable with something as fundamentally wild and messy as sex being reduced to a set of do’s, don’t and mechanistic rules.

      Sometimes, like when I’ve leapt into the head of a massive river gorge with nothing but my pack to float on, and no idea what’s around the next few bends, you just have to accept that there may be fuck-ups and consequences. If I didn’t want to take that chance then I’d take the slow, safe boring route over the bluffs. With two people it gets more complex; but in the final analysis you’ve both chosen to be in the rapids.

      Be careful not to misinterpret this as saying what he did was ok; but neither was it the crime of the century either.

      • McFlock 26.2.1
         
         

        Nobody’s saying it is the crime of the century.
               
        Similarly, nobody’s reducing sex to “a set of do’s, don’t and mechanistic rules”. Unless you think “make sure that you know what you’re doing is welcomed by the person you’re supposedly having sex with” takes all the fun out of it.
                 
        I have exactly the same opinion of the Assange case as I do of the DSK case in New York. If a notable figure is accused of a crime, especially a crime with a microscopic reporting and conviction rate, then it needs to be seen to be thoroughly and exhaustively investigated. The fact is that it’s already in the media, and if it’s brushed away then that’s a powerful signal about the priorities that the society has in relation to that crime. And if the case is dropped or allowed to lapse without being thoroughly investigated, it encourages that behaviour in others even if the accused turns out to have been innocent.
             
        Based on the most rational and closest-to-source links I’ve seen, I think Assange is a rapist. But even if he is found not guilty at least it has been demonstrated that the alleged crime is taken seriously. And frankly, I think  that’s far more valuable to society than even wikileaks.
             
        As to the terror of rendition from Sweden, I think it’s bull in his case. Too well known.

         
        • muzza 26.2.1.1

          What did you think of the DSK case when it all fell apart?

        • RedLogix 26.2.1.2

          And as I have repeatedly said .. it would be best if the matter went to a trial. (Well remember that the Swedish authorities have not even charged him with anything yet. So far all they have been demanding is that he return to Sweden to be put in prison … before they have even interviewed him again.)

          But we all know that the this is not an ordinary prosecution. You cannot ignore the fact that there is a massive political agenda at work here and that no sane person would voluntarily go back to Sweden to face undefined time on remand in prison, no definite charges and the very real probability of being extradited to the USA on unrelated charges.. something the Swedes have refused to rule out even though it would cost them nothing to do so. No-one can have any confidence in a fair trial under these extraordinary circumstances; to suggest otherwise flies in the face of all reason.

          In the meantime we can parse the sexual politics of all this to our hearts content, and I don’t mind that discussion. On the scale of these things, the allegations made fall fairly close to the threshold of what some people think is rape or not, and that in itself is worthwhile discussion. If a fair trial found him guilty I would accept that the Court had heard all the evidence and made a fair decision .. but again … there is no longer any reasonable prospect of that happening is there?

          In the meantime we are allowing this wedging of the liberal movement to effectively taken our eye of the ball which seems a pretty massive self-inflicted injury if you ask me.

          • KJT 26.2.1.2.1

            No way would I go back to Sweden. Whether innocent or guilty.

            The chances of ending up incommunicado in solitary confinement somewhere at the USA’s behast is too high.

            Note: our own authorities turning out in force to enforce a “dubious’ US indictment for copyright violation. NTM Bradley Manning.

            • Te Reo Putake 26.2.1.2.1.1

              Yeah, because Sweden is soooo beholden to the USA, unlike the UK where he has been living for the past few years without so much as a hint that the yanks want to extradite him.
               
              Seriously, Sweden is one of the places that most people fleeing political oppresion head to, because it has a tradition of standing up for the downtrodden. Even if the yanks did expect to be able to extradite him from Sweden, and there isn’t a scrap of evidence to say they are, so what? This a problem of his own making. If he had any respect for the women he was sleeping with, he would not be on the run now.
               
              If Assange is innocent, he should fight the charges, if they are ever laid. The man is an arrogant, gutless tool. And nice of you to mention Bradley Manning, another of Assange’s many victims. Is anybody keeping track of how many lives his pompous irresponsibility has damaged?

              • Colonial Viper

                Nice image of Sweden. Holiday-esque.

                Except in 2001 Sweden assisted the US intelligence services to extradite 2 people back to Egypt, where they were subsequently interrogated and tortured.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Ahmed_Agiza_and_Muhammad_al-Zery

              • Kotahi Tane Huna

                I don’t think much of a place where a politician, acting as a prosecutor, can over-ride the ruling of the chief prosecutor.

                Say what you like about Assange, but that’s that’s just plain dodgy.

              • RedLogix

                Yeah, because Sweden is soooo beholden to the USA, unlike the UK where he has been living for the past few years without so much as a hint that the yanks want to extradite him.

                No.. do some research. Sweden is not the unalloyed social-liberal utopia you may in mind. Like most places it has it’s own peculiarities and vulnerable points and as CV rightly points out, they have record.

                Bear in mind that so far the Swedes have not laid charges despite having already interviewed him once and released him at that time. Assange was co-operative until it became apparent there was an agenda at work. Moreover it is perfectly plain that Assange has been singled out for an extraordinarily zealous prosecution effort, something quite unprecedented.

                Besides if Sweden’s tradition of standing up for the downtrodden is really at work here; why not simply fly to London to interview him? Why not lay definite charges and give a clear assurance that there will be no extradition to the USA on unrelated political charges relating to wikileaks.

                If what you say is true it would cost them nothing to give this assurance.

                My simple question to you is this; do you think there is a political motivation to this prosecution or not? And if so would you have any confidence in the likelihood of a fair trial?

  27. Te Reo Putake 27

    “My simple question to you is this; do you think there is a political motivation to this prosecution or not? And if so would you have any confidence in the likelihood of a fair trial?”
     
    No to the first, yes to the second. Assange is not above the law, no matter what fantasies you attribute to his circumstances.

    Edit: reply to RL. The other ones weren’t worth replying to.

    • Colonial Viper 27.1

      Really, no political motivation? That’s generous of you, considering that many in the US Congress consider Assange to be an enemy of the state, while the Australian Government has deliberately not given Assange any assistance whatsoever.

    • RedLogix 27.2

      Assange is not above the law,

      And I think I’ve clearly stated at least four times on this thread that it the Swedes get around to actually laying charges then a trial is highly desirable. Where did I for an instant suggest otherwise?

      no matter what fantasies you attribute to his circumstances.

      Denying that there is a political element to this entire matter has to be the most blatant example of ‘head up arse’ syndrome I’ve seen in a while. And round here that’s saying something.

      • Te Reo Putake 27.2.1

        “And I think I’ve clearly stated at least four times on this thread that it the Swedes get around to actually laying charges then a trial is highly desirable. Where did I for an instant suggest otherwise?”
         
        Who knows? Not me, I never mentioned that rather sensible opinion of yours. But at least we appear to agree that Assange is not above the law.
         
        There is no political element to the rape allegation. It’s a legal argument, not a political one. It can and should be defended on the facts of the matter.

        • Colonial Viper 27.2.1.1

          Then Sweden can take all doubt out of it by guaranteeing that Assange will not be extradited to the USA under any circumstances.

          That will leave Assange with no excuse whatsoever.

          • Te Reo Putake 27.2.1.1.1

            Yeah, good point. Sweden should change its laws because of a non- existent threat to St Julian.

            • Colonial Viper 27.2.1.1.1.1

              So simply guarantee that Sweden will not hear any extradition request from the US for Julian Assange to face any capital crime or any military tribunal or military detention.

              No law change is needed. And its entirely standard to turn down extradition requests where the detainee faces possible execution, torture or corporal punishment.

              By addressing that concern Assange will have no excuse whatsoever not to turn himself over to Swedish authorities.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Why should Sweden change any aspect of their law to make life easier for any rape suspect?
                 
                BTW, Sweden already has laws that stop extradition if the death penalty is a potential outcome. Not that the US has shown any interest whatsoever in extraditing him.

                • RedLogix

                  Not that the US has shown any interest whatsoever in extraditing him.

                  What other than the US Congress declaring him an enemy of the state? Besides:

                  http://ccrjustice.org/newsroom/press-releases/ccr-condemns-reported-sealed-indictment-against-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange

                  A sealed indictment against Julian Assange would underscore the very thing Wikileaks has been fighting against: abuses the government commits in an environment of secrecy and expansive, reflexive calls for “national security.” From the shocking, inhumane treatment of Bradley Manning, to secret grand jury proceedings, to Stratfor’s apparent knowledge of the existence of a sealed indictment before either Mr. Assange or the American public had such knowledge, the government’s conduct in this case reveals why more transparency, not more secrecy, is essential.

                  mmmm…

            • RedLogix 27.2.1.1.1.2

              Sweden should change its laws ..

              Sorry but I’ve lost you there. Are you telling us that the Swedish have a law that says they have to hand over anyone that the US asks for? No questions asked and no discretion?

              Jeeze that’s even worse than I imagined!

        • RedLogix 27.2.1.2

          There is no political element to the rape allegation.

          Again no problem if this was just a routine allegation being pursued in a routine manner; and if that was the case the Courts could be left to routinely sort the matter out.

          But you are being deliberately obtuse if you want to pretend that this is anything like a routine prosecution. Or that there is not a long, long history of the legal process being misused for abusive political purposes.

          And that this affair shows all the signs of being another example of it.

    • Colonial Viper 27.3

      Edit: reply to RL. The other ones weren’t worth replying to.

      I’d appreciate it if you responded to the case of Sweden extraditing 2 Egyptian men in 2001 to be interrogated and tortured, at the behest of the Americans.

      • Te Reo Putake 27.3.1

        I would if it had the slightest relevance to the Assange rape allegation. But clearly it doen’t. What about the dozens of renditions via England? As I pointed out previously, the UK regularly extradites anyone the yanks ask for, but strangely, the USA doesn’t seem to give a flying one about Assange. They’re probably just having a hearty laugh at the mess he’s got himself in, not to mention the fun to be had giggling at left wing men on blog sites trying to trivialise rape.

        • Kotahi Tane Huna 27.3.1.1

          What about left wing men on blog sites who are concerned that if a chief prosecutor throws out a case, only to have it reinstated by a politician, that politicises and therefore trivialises any alleged wrongdoing, especially alleged wrongdoing where no charges have been laid?

          • Te Reo Putake 27.3.1.1.1

            Not a problem. That’s the system in Sweden, the country where the sexual assaults are alleged to have taken place. Their country, their rules. Best to avoid raping people in Sweden I would have thought. Or anywhere, obviously.
             
            By the way, I will acknowlege that there is a political element to the judicial process in some countries, in that the heads of police and prosecutors are sometimes elected positions. That’s the case in the UK and the States, for example. But that’s not what I suspect is meant by ‘political element’ in this discussion.

            • Kotahi Tane Huna 27.3.1.1.1.1

              It depends whether you think the case can be separated from what is going on with Wikileaks – a considerable amount of resources has gone into attacking that organisation, denying it banking facilities, etc. It would be naive to assume that Assange would not receive similar attention as an individual – and therefore very stupid of him to behave as he has – even if these allegations are entirely false.

              But here’s the thing – even if the allegations are false, we are then in the familiar narrative of powerful man exploits women, sleeps around, ruins own career.

              So either Assange is a rapist or a disrespectful idiot, and Wikileaks still can’t get banking facilities.

              Sweden’s justice system doesn’t look too flash either.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Yep, you’re right re: wikileaks. He didn’t just have unwanted sex with those women, he fucked Wikileaks too. As I said earlier, he’s an arrogant tool. And now he’s an arrogant tool hiding from the judicial system of a modern liberal state. Not because he’s worried about the US, but because he’s worried about Sweden. He’s a coward, too scared to face his accusers. He simply doesn’t have the spine to stand up in court and defend himself. Which is ironic, given his reputation was built on transparency and openess.

                • Kotahi Tane Huna

                  Depends whether you think the threat of extradition to the USA is real. Or, more importantly, whether Assange thinks it’s real.

                  I suppose on strictly ethical terms he should go to Sweden even if he’s certain of extradition to the USA, but then “strictly ethical” behaviour would have kept him out of trouble in the first place.

                  • McFlock

                    Arguing imminent peril of extradition to the US because of one case three months after 9/11 is precious. The US has burned a lot of goodwill since then.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So you’re saying extradition to the US would not happen now? Even if the US decided that it was a matter of national security?

                    • McFlock

                      Never say never, but it’s pretty bloody slim imo.
                               
                      Much less than the yanks pulling him from the UK, or pulling a Vanunu in Ecuador.
                       

                    • Kotahi Tane Huna

                      So far as I am concerned the argument hinges upon evidence that a secret grand jury has been convened. The previous rendition was illegal, was it not? Assange’s would be procured through legitimate legal channels, where I’m not sure “goodwill” would be part of the test.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Never say never, but it’s pretty bloody slim imo.

                      You should tell this to Assange then. Sounds solid enough to bet his life on. Or at least a friendly stay at Guantanamo.

                    • McFlock

                      So out of interest, if indeed he did commit the alleged crimes, exactly how many people is he allowed to rape before, in your opinion, he should actually risk facing a criminal justice system?
                            
                       

                    • Kotahi Tane Huna

                      “…should…”

                      If we’re discussing what he “should” do – I’ve already answered that – the ethical path is to go to Sweden despite the threat from the USA.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So out of interest, if indeed he did commit the alleged crimes, exactly how many people is he allowed to allegedly rape before, in your opinion, he should actually risk facing a criminal justice system?

                      FIFY

                      You might remember that quaint trifle, the ‘presumption of innocence’ which applies to any and all charges laid either now or in the future.

                      Sweden gives Assange a public assurance that he will not be extradited on unrelated charges (an assurance which costs Sweden nothing and in fact disarms Assange’s last arguments) at which point Assange should present for questioning ASAP.

                      Easy as.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      “If he did indeed commit the alleged crimes” removes the need for your added “alleged”. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.
                          
                      And if he goes to Sweden and someone tries to extradite him for an alleged sexual assault in France, should he be able to be extradited?
                           
                      What about if he hacked into corporate records in the states? Does wikipedia mean he should be able to commit any crime without fear of extradition on legitimate charges?
                             
                      Just theoretically, not saying he has done anything wrong, but what crimes should he be able to commit before the investigating country no longer needs to negotiate his conditions of extradition to your satisfaction? Rape is out. Bank robbery, maybe?
                       
                       

                       
                    • Colonial Viper

                      “If he did indeed commit the alleged crimes” removes the need for your added “alleged”. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke.

                      Except you referred to additional new allegations by asking “how many”. Unless you wish to assume his guilt in those additional hypothetical incidents as well?

                      And if he goes to Sweden and someone tries to extradite him for an alleged sexual assault in France, should he be able to be extradited?

                      What about if he hacked into corporate records in the states? Does wikipedia mean he should be able to commit any crime without fear of extradition on legitimate charges?

                      Keep discussing irrelevant hypotheticals with yourself if you wish.

                      Back to the actual case in point: Sweden should step forwards, publicly state that they will not be extraditing Assange to the US on unrelated matters. This would effectively disarm all of Assange’s key arguments for not presenting to Swedish authorities.

                      Assange, having received that assurance should present to Swedish authorities posthaste, allowing the criminal investigation against him to continue.

                    • McFlock

                      Back to the actual case in point: Sweden should step forwards, publicly state that they will not be extraditing Assange to the US on unrelated matters. This would effectively disarm all of Assange’s key arguments for not presenting to Swedish authorities.

                       
                      It’s a criminal investigation, not a negotiation. And the yanks could have extradited him from the UK just as easily – I know you have tremendous faith in the UK legal system, but besides injustices like the Guiford 4 and Brimingham 6, they also shoot Brazilian electricians in the head. I’m not so sure that Sweden is so much worse than that.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      It’s a criminal investigation, not a negotiation.

                      So despite the fact it would achieve your goals – i.e. get Assange in front of Swedish authorities asap – you don’t think the Swedish authorities should give those assurances?

                      BTW I didn’t imply that this assurance would be given as part of any negotiation; I’m suggesting that Sweden simply take the initative to get what they want: Assange in front of their criminal investigators asap. That’s quite different to conceeding some kind of negotiating point.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh please.
                               
                      So if someone skips the country on an investigation, any country should arbitrarily limit their legal system in the hope that the suspect will return?
                            
                      Should this happen for everyone, be limited to famous people, or maybe just apply to St Julian?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You want to leave the door open for Assange to be extradited to the US then?

                      I thought you wanted Assange in front of Swedish investigators asap. I’ve detailed how that could happen. Why are you resisting that outcome?

                    • McFlock

                      For the reasons above.
                          
                      To maintain credibility, a legal system can’t be seen to negotiate or compromise just because someone is famous.
                          
                      Oh, and didn’t TRP respond to the bullshit ‘extradition to execution’ scenario?

                  • RedLogix

                    Mc Flock.

                    Quit digging. Your argument only holds together until you examine any facts of the case. Sure if we were talking about a routine nobodies like you and I, none of this would apply.

                    But this is the man who more or less created wikileaks and has made many powerful enemies; people who are entirely capable of misusing a legitimate legal process to covertly achieve a political end. So yes Assange is a special case.

                    You are in utter fucking dreamland if you will not, cannot take take that into account. Of course you are not such a fool really, you know what I’m saying is true… but hell there are all those serious feminist brownie points to think of.

                    • McFlock

                      Awww feminist brownie points. That’s sweet.
                             
                      Funnily enough, the “facts of the case” would be easier to examine if teamassange groupies didn’t make shit up.  And I’d give more credibility to the extradition theory if the same camp putting it forward hadn’t made shit up from the get-go.
                           
                      Yes, there are political factors. He knew that before he slept around, consent or otherwise. He knew that when he made himself the face of wikileaks. Maybe the yanks did construct the entire thing. But maybe he did exactly what he is suspected of. This is what criminal investigations are for. And at the moment, it doesn’t seem to be the investigators who are making shit up.

        • Colonial Viper 27.3.1.2

          I would if it had the slightest relevance to the Assange rape allegation. But clearly it doen’t.

          Disingenous mate.

          YOU made it relevant by claiming that Sweden was

          one of the places that most people fleeing political oppresion head to, because it has a tradition of standing up for the downtrodden.

          Which my example shows is clearly BOLLOCKS when the US intelligence services have an interest.

          • Te Reo Putake 27.3.1.2.1

            Wow, big logic failure there, CV. Must try harder.

            • Colonial Viper 27.3.1.2.1.1

              Didn’t you say that Sweden was a protector of human rights and a great country to seek protection within?

              Didn’t my 2001 example of two Egyptians being extradited and subsequently tortured prove that you were full of shit?

              Where was the logic fail? Please point out.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Yep, that’s Sweden’s history. It has taken more than its fair share of asylum seekers and one unrelated example of poor behaviour (which I’ll take your word for) doesn’t change that. If he’s not guilty he should get over there and defend himself. But he won’t, mainly because he’s chickenshit.
                 
                You do understand that the UK routinely extradite even the mentally ill to the US at the drop of a hat? This is not about America, it’s about your favourite alleged rapist not wanting to justify his behaviour in court. Your paranoia can’t alter that, CV.

                • Colonial Viper

                  This is not about America, it’s about your favourite alleged rapist not wanting to justify his behaviour in court. Your paranoia can’t alter that, CV.

                  Why should Assange have to justify his behaviour in court? Wait until charges have been laid, I suggest, before you start talking about appearing in court. It makes me think that you’ve already decided that Assange is guilty for whatever reason. Let me remind you that the presumption is of innocence.

                  You use the term “paranoia” suggesting an irrational, unrealistic and unjustifiable fear.

                  Given that:

                  – Sweden has extradited people at US request previously, people who were subsequently interrogated and tortured, and that

                  – Bradley Manning (the other half of why some US congressmen think that Assange should be executed) has been held in utterly inhumane solitary confinement conditions and denied any semblance of legal justice, and that

                  – Sweden will not give any reassurance that Assange won’t be on a plane direct to Guantano Bay soon after arriving in Sweden

                  I’d suggest that Assange’s fears are actually rational, realistic and quite justifiable.

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    So what? He has got into this situation entirely because of his own behaviour. Even if extradition to the US was absolutely, 100% certain, he should still go to Sweden. Unless, of course,  you think the consequences outweigh the alleged crime.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Even if extradition to the US was absolutely, 100% certain, he should still go to Sweden. Unless, of course, you think the consequences outweigh the alleged crime.

                      If he gets sent to the US, he may be charged with capital crimes, with penalty by lethal injection. You may be OK with that, but I am not.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Did ya miss the bit where I pointed out Sweden won’t extradite if the death penalty is a possible outcome?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Well, then it’s just fine.

                  • Kotahi Tane Huna

                    Hmm – if Assange “should” go to Sweden, Sweden most definitely “should not” hand him over to the USA. Life imprisonment would mean exactly that, if he survived it long enough to die of old age. Not to mention that the charges are a joke and a fraud.

                    But Sweden almost certainly will extradite him if required to – they will seek assurances that the prosecution will not seek the death penalty, then follow the rules.

                    So even if Assange had behaved honourably I doubt the Swedes would have paid him the same courtesy.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So many people here are OK with Assange facing life imprisonment or worse in a US federal or military institution, just for upsetting TPTB with wikileaks.

                      Anything which happens to him later is fine as long as the rapist gets whats coming to him.

                    • McFlock

                      Not one rapist.
                      All of ’em.
                              
                      Am I fine with the scenario you portray? Nope.
                      But the alternative is to dilute an entire criminal justice system for every case of sexual assault from now on, simply because Assange couldn’t keep it in his pants. And it’s already pretty damned diluted. That is the scenario that you seem to be okay with. ‘Upset TPTB and you don’t need to be extradited to face trial and investigation for other suspected crimes’. That’s your world. Frankly, I don’t like either option – but Assange put everyone else in this position.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Yeah ok I get it McFlock, you want to make sure that Assange gets made a proper example of.

                      Because if he doesn’t, then (somehow) every rapist around the world from now on will have an out.

                      And any price he pays after that at the hands of the US will be “regrettable”, but “his fault”. You know, because he “couldn’t keep it in his pants”.

                    • McFlock

                      And yet “somehow” I don’t think you do.
                       

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You’re willing for someone else to risk paying an extraordinary price with the rest of their life so that their moral and sexual failings are adequately punished. Pretty clear mate.

                    • McFlock

                      Nope.
                            
                      He was prepared to risk paying the price of becoming the face of wikileaks by becoming the face of wikileaks.
                         
                      I’m just saddened that he’d risk paying it for such a pointless act.

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

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  • New Fisk
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