Open mike 21/01/2025

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 21st, 2025 - 142 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

142 comments on “Open mike 21/01/2025 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch 1
    21 January 2025 at 7:37 am

    ME: Credit where credit’s due. The appointment of a minister for the South Island is a really great move!

    FRIEND: How so?

    ME: Well, he’s a Minister, he’ll advocate strongly for the South Island. Think about it, now we’ll get a complete Dunedin Hospital rebuild, now we’ll get modern, up to date ferries, and by 2026, now Nelson hospital will get . . .

    FRIEND: Hold on, hold on. How’s this mearger man going to achieve all this?

    ME: He’s a Minister, he’ll have a say . . .

    FRIEND: But he’s not in Cabinet! He’ll have no say in any decisions made!

    ME: What, he’s not in Cabinet? Then WTF use is he to anyone?

    FRIEND: Perhaps he’s just a PR exercise! Y'know, window dressing to make it appear the CoC even knows where the South Island is!

    • Bearded Git 1.1
      21 January 2025 at 8:50 am

      Excellent TV.

    • bwaghorn 1.2
      21 January 2025 at 9:28 am

      Given that a large chunk of south islanders would hate them Māori s have wards and special seats I reckon it's just national sucking up to there base , hypocrisy rite large!

    • Ad 1.3
      21 January 2025 at 10:09 am

      I would prefer that every region defined by a Regional Council boundary had 1 MP in Parliament.

      Regional representation would be better than this half-assed approach, and because it represented governance boundaries it would also be better than Maori seats.

      • weka 1.3.1
        21 January 2025 at 10:13 am

        how would that change the NI/SI ratio?

        • Ad 1.3.1.1
          21 January 2025 at 2:11 pm

          Depends on how it would change the number of List seats.

          If you subtracted them off List seats it would at least give 11 Regional MPs something useful to do, namely to represent the needs of Regions and Councils,

          It's got to be a topic for a pre-2040 constitutional discussion.

      • bwaghorn 1.3.2
        21 January 2025 at 6:01 pm

        I'd go further and have rural seats stop at the 50 kmph sign of rural towns , different electorate for vastly different needs

    • weka 1.4
      21 January 2025 at 10:12 am

      sounds true. Same with the hunting and fishing minister. My guess, these are Peters' ideas, because he knows how to ensure his next election victory.

  2. Jenny 2
    21 January 2025 at 10:03 am

    The final dangerous act of a senile old fruit and nut case.

    Preemptive pardons, what the hell is that?

    To protect his family and associates and senior Justice officials and politicians from Trump's threatened illegal unconstitutional acts of vengeance, outgoing US President Joe Biden has issued preemptive pardons for those in the political elite who have been threatened by Trump.

    Of all the American democratic institutions and legal and justice systems being targeted by Trump, America's political elites are the best able to defend, themselves, publicly and in court.

    To protect his own, the American justice and democratic institutions has been short circuited by Joe Biden.

    As Biden and his family and associates clamber aboard a presidential pardon lifeboat, Biden's message to Americans is clear, 'You are on your own'

    By pre-emptively removing themselves from the front line of Trump's unconstitutional attacks, Biden has invited attack on every other American institution and civil society organisation next on Trump's hit list..

    At the very least this doddery old fool makes these law makers and government officials he has pardoned look guilty, (of something). This is raw meat to Trump's feral base that feed off conspiracy theories.

    A genuine democratic leader with faith in the system would have challenged Trump to do his worst, and instead of short circuiting the system, relied on the American democratic institutions and legal system of checks and balances backed up by the American constitution to defend against Trump's attacks. For the political elite shielded by these pardons, the chance to defend themselves and their actions in court and in public, as they are able to do, more than most, has been lost.

    Denying Trump's detractors and accusers their chance to be vindicated in the eyes of the public and on the record and by history, is a gutless surrender to Trump, and another monumental failure by the Biden administration. Possibly to be proved one of their worst.

    You give pardons after someone has been tried and found guilty, not before.

    Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
    Preemptive pardons presumes preemptive guilt.

    A presidential pardon is supposed to be a show of mercy granted to the convicted and not a determination of guilt or innocence.

    Finally; What sort of precedent is this setting for Trump?. to preemptively pardon himself for crimes he hasn't committed yet?

    Surely the far centre extremists trying to protect themselves at everyone' else's expense are the hand maidens of the far right.

    Biden issues preemptive pardons for Trump critics and Biden family members

    By Kevin Liptak and Arlette Saenz , CNN

    7 minute read

    Updated 2:48 PM EST, Mon January 20, 2025

    Tapper: "Biden’s preemptive pardons start of ‘crappy day’ for Department of Justice officials"

    Washington CNN —

    President Joe Biden on Monday issued an extraordinary slate of preemptive pardons for prominent critics of President-elect Donald Trump and members of his own family, using executive prerogative as a shield against revenge by his incoming successor….

    ,,,,,,Clemency for Gen. Mark Milley, Dr. Anthony Fauci and members of Congress who served on the committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol, was announced early Monday morning. Later, minutes before Trump was to be inaugurated as the nation’s 47th president, Biden also issued pardons for members of his family: his brothers James and Frank, his sister Valerie, and their respective spouses.

    The pardons, coming in the final hours of Biden’s presidency, amount to a stunning flex of presidential power that is unprecedented in recent presidential history…..

    https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/20/politics/joe-biden-preemptive-pardons/index.html

    • tWig 2.2
      21 January 2025 at 10:32 am

      Because Trump has said he will pursue those who did things that he personally disapproved of. I think it's an astute political move. It underlines the hijacking of proper judicial process that happens when Trump openly says he'll force legal proceedings to hunt his 'enemies'.

      • Obtrectator 2.2.1
        21 January 2025 at 11:02 am

        Well there's one thing: however far Mr Biden's actions may have strayed outside of "due process" (whatever that might be, now), he can't be charged with anything – the SCOTUS sez so.

      • Jenny 2.2.2
        21 January 2025 at 11:39 am

        tWig2.2

        21 January 2025 at 10:32 am

        …..I think it's an astute political move.

        I think Biden is being more cowardly and self serving than astute.

        What about all the people Trump will go after that Biden hasn't given preemptive pardons to?

        Rather than go through the proper legal channels to fight Trump's persecution of top officials, (on behalf of everyone else, especially those who will be next), Biden takes the coward's way out.

        In 2020 Joe Biden said that preemptive pardons "set a horrible precedent"

        From the Jake Tapper Transcript:

        We should note, for career officials at the Justice Department this is a really crappy day, because it starts with these sweeping pardons….

        And to a lot of people –

        This did not go through the regular pardon attorney, the pardon process. And Biden when I interviewed him in 2020, right after he has been elected, had some very harsh things to say about the idea of Trump giving preemptive pardons to his family members. He said, 'It would set a horrible precedent.'

        Now, Trump didn't do it. But Joe Biden did.

        https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/20/politics/joe-biden-preemptive-pardons/index.html

        Overlooking Biden's sheer hypocrisy, if Biden has no confidence in the US legal and justice system to protect his family members or even justice department officials, how confident in the US legal and justice system can anyone else be, targeted by Trump and not protected by a preemptive pardon?

        If the leadership won't stand up to defend themselves, the very least this will do is have is a chilling effect on the rest of the civil administration officials not protected by pardons to stand up to whatever excesses and abuse of civil liberties Trump has in mind

        • alwyn 2.2.2.1
          21 January 2025 at 12:29 pm

          It was getting a bit late, in 2020 to be talking about preemptive pardons where there was no identified crime having been committed as setting some sort of precedent.

          After all, the greatest of all US Presidents, Lincoln offered pardons to any member of the Confederacy and restoration of all their rights, except for the ownership of slaves to anyone who would swear an oath of allegiance to the United States. This was part of Lincoln's plans for the future of the South after the war and Congress wouldn't go along with them.

          Then, on Christmas Day 1968 Lincoln's successor Andrew Johnson pardoned every soldier who had served in the Confederate forces. He could do it and he did. How about that for a pre-emptive strike.

          https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/25/this-day-in-politics-dec-25-1868-1074077

        • Ad 2.2.2.2
          21 January 2025 at 6:21 pm

          "Everyone else" is utterly irrelevant.

          Trump will avenge against Biden as the true antichrist Trump believes he is.

          In 6 months people like you will wonder how far and fast Trump brings this world down.

    • Francesca 2.3
      21 January 2025 at 11:21 am

      Totally agree Jenny

      It's now carte blanche for Trump and a further weakening of due process

    • Ad 2.4
      21 January 2025 at 2:16 pm

      So disagree.

      We can go on all day about how the law is always right and useful.

      Actually between Biden and Trump what they should have done is pardoned the entire lot who invaded the capital on July 6th, as well as all those who examined the breakdown afterwards.

      There is now simply too much division within the United States to just keep jailing people for everything around January 6th whether you are Democrat or Republican.

      Pretty much the same applies to New Zealand, and all the people that invaded the Parliament grounds.

      A good NZ bipartisan review would say that the GG should pardon all those who were charged and convicted in Wellington as well. Those massive state interventions in vaccine mandates may have felt justified at the time, but in this cold light of day they were a massive overreach of state power.

      Punishment is just endless in this case and the nations won't heal.

      • Incognito 2.4.1
        21 January 2025 at 2:41 pm

        Those massive state interventions in vaccine mandates may have felt justified at the time, but in this cold light of day they were a massive overreach of state power.

        Have you read the Phase One report of the NZ Royal Commission COVID-19 Lessons Learned?

      • Cricklewood 2.4.2
        21 January 2025 at 4:19 pm

        Agreed, if Biden had any sense he would of pardoned Trump for crimes relating to his presidency instead of eventually starting investigations and various court cases.

        Would have likely meant that Trump slowly faded from the headlines and I suspect wouldnt have run again. Instead the court cases provided a platform and the motivation given winning the election was the only way to save himself.

        • SPC 2.4.2.1
          21 January 2025 at 6:54 pm

          His claimed he won the election in 2020, then used of money from supporters to favour GOP loyalists over rivals. This was to maintain his control over the party and win the nomination for 2024.

          Not the path of someone who was going away.

      • weka 2.4.3
        21 January 2025 at 4:46 pm

        Those massive state interventions in vaccine mandates may have felt justified at the time, but in this cold light of day they were a massive overreach of state power.

        An overreach because of the backlash and political fallout, or an overreach because it's just fundamentally wrong for the state to do such a thing?

      • Anne 2.4.4
        21 January 2025 at 8:14 pm

        Ad @ 2.4

        Bullshit! The govt. of the day saved thousands of lives or maybe you don't think that should have been a priority. We only did the same as almost every other country in the world with the partial exception of Trump's America and look what a massive cost in lives they paid.

        Maybe you believe no country should have used mandatory isolation rules, leading to a global figure of a billion plus lives lost.

        • Cricklewood 2.4.4.1
          21 January 2025 at 9:01 pm

          Um we did very different things to many countries. Sweden, Japan and plenty of others.

          The mandates did very little apart from drive a big enough wedge in society that we have the current govt. They were a nonsense couldn't work plenty of jobs due to risk but could go and stand in line at the supermarket. The extra couple of percent vax rate they gained on a vaccination that didnt stop transmission was a massive over reach. The lives saved were down to the early lockdowns.

          • Descendant Of Smith 2.4.4.1.1
            21 January 2025 at 9:17 pm

            That is mainly a hindsight view methinks. Nobody really knew at that stage what impact the mutated variants would have.

            My mother recalls being out of school for three months when the polio epidemic occurred.

            • weka 2.4.4.1.1.1
              21 January 2025 at 9:33 pm

              I also think it's a hindsight view. The variants before omicron were brutal, and there are people still not recovered from those infections.

              Maybe there is a criticism of Labour for not adapting sooner, but I think many people fail to understand just how difficult it is to change policy fast in a crisis and do that well. Plus everyone was burnt out by then.

              • Cricklewood …
                22 January 2025 at 8:09 am

                If you look back it's a view I exposed when the widespread mandates were announced. Cutting 5% or so of the population from society was always going to have some pretty severe and very long term consequences. Whilst small percentage wise it was actually a group of roughly 200000 people which became a significant and motivated voting block against Labour who essentially propelled NZ1st and Act into Govt.

                I'd say by the time they are done whether one term or two the damage done will be far worse than Covid in it's entirety.

                • weka …
                  22 January 2025 at 8:59 am

                  as is often the case, the real comparison is forgotten. It wasn't a choice between mandates and the covid we had. It was a choice between mandates and more people dying and becoming disabled. What's the cost of that?

                  While I agree that the mandates were a factor in the swing away from Labour, I think there would have been a swing away from Nat if they had been in charge. It's probably a natural consequence of being the government in power during a long emergency when there are no good outcomes, just less bad ones.

                  But Labour did make mistakes, and the degree to which some on the left still won't have that conversation is concerning.

                  • Cricklewood …
                    22 January 2025 at 10:33 am

                    There definitly would have been a swing away from Labour but I doubt nz1st would have made the threshold and lijely a point or 2 off Act as well which makes a Lab Green Tpm govt far more likely

          • Anne 2.4.4.1.2
            21 January 2025 at 9:30 pm

            "The lives saved were down to the early lockdowns."

            Right you are. What did you think I was referring to? They went too long but its easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight. At the time new mutations were appearing at regular intervals and nobody back then knew the effect they would have, so they erred on the side of caution. So convenient for critics like yourself to forget all of that.

            As for the "wedge" created in society. That was caused by mischievous and vexatious outpourings of mis and disinformation… most of which came from hard-right American fake actors. It was picked up by our homegrown disinformation miscreants, and unfortunately believed by people who should have known better.

          • SPC 2.4.4.1.3
            21 January 2025 at 9:34 pm

            We chose vaccination mandates to maintain safety post opening up borders.

            The alternative, evidence of infection, was only available to some because of the closed borders.

            The irony of the protests, was that a month or so later, the point of them was overtaken by omicron.

          • weka 2.4.4.1.4
            21 January 2025 at 9:35 pm

            They were a nonsense couldn't work plenty of jobs due to risk but could go and stand in line at the supermarket

            Standing in line for ten minutes with a mask on and spacing, compared to working an 8 hour shift, these are not comparable.

            The problem wasn't the mandates, it was not looking after the people affected by the mandates.

            • Cricklewood 2.4.4.1.4.1
              22 January 2025 at 7:53 am

              10min? My local Countdown inside the mall had lines that were often 1 hour long just to get in the store which was pretty at capacity for most of the day so accounting for the enclosed enviroment and shear number of people through a store in a day it would actually be far more likely to spread in the supermarket than a properly manage work place maintaining distance and rapid testing.

              • weka …
                22 January 2025 at 8:54 am

                the solution to that problem is better supermarket systems during an emergency. It's not to increase general exposure to a serious viral illness.

                I agree about the properly managed work place, I just don't think that's what was happening.

                But also, I agree that the mandates weren't done very well and came with a hefty dose of ideological shunning (and not just from the government). IMO, that's why we have the social problem now. I think the mandates were a necessary evil given what they knew about Delta at the time. But the two NZs thing was incredibly stupid and made Labour hypocrites given their wellbeing/kindness rhetoric elsewhere. Be kind, but only to the people you agree with.

          • Bearded Git 2.4.4.1.5
            21 January 2025 at 10:00 pm

            Rewriting history yet again Crick.

            The mandates encouraged/forced many people to get vaccinated, to the point where 95% were vaccinated. This and the lockdowms saved around 18000 lives compared with the UK'S approach.

            • Cricklewood 2.4.4.1.5.1
              22 January 2025 at 7:58 am

              The mandates added maybe 5 percent to the total vaccination effort at tremendous cost. We wouldn't be dealing with the the current mob in power if we hadn't mandated.

              The lockdowns are what made the difference.

              • weka …
                22 January 2025 at 8:55 am

                the mandates also removed unvaccinated people from key positions like hospitals. It's hard to argue that that was a bad thing.

                • Cricklewood …
                  22 January 2025 at 10:08 am

                  My issue sits with the widespread mandates not the more targeted mandates in the health system and other senstive areas.

                  • weka …
                    22 January 2025 at 10:17 am

                    fair enough. They did have the tone of 'fuck off, you're a terrible person'. Extraordinary to see a government do that, but then Mallard and others did the same at the occupation of parliament grounds.

                    I think this is why the whole kindness thing just fell over. Ardern should have been ushering in a new social standard of connection and tolerance, and in the end she botched.

                    • Cricklewood …
                      22 January 2025 at 10:41 am

                      It was botched the minute she did that two classes of people interview.

                      Not to mention the various ministers making ill advised comments. The KFC worker, the two woman that crossed the Auckland border spring to mind. Sent the signal it was ok to have a pile on essentially.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 January 2025 at 11:19 am

                      A final Ode to .. King Luxon [22 Dec 2024]

                      It was botched the minute she did that two classes of people interview.

                      It was what it was – like our PM's frank 'bottom feeder' comment sad

                      Bottom Feeder (YouTube Music Video)

                    • weka []
                      22 January 2025 at 11:36 am

                      and Clark’s haters and wreckers comment.

                      it was what it was, but I hope the left can learn from our mistakes.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 January 2025 at 1:21 pm

                      I hope the left can learn from our mistakes.

                      yes It can be easier to admit to small mistakes than to big ones, and admitting mistakes often facilitates learning (and healing.)

                      Failure is the mother of success. A fall into a pit, a gain in your wit smiley

                    • weka []
                      22 January 2025 at 1:37 pm

                      I’m a fan of using failures to inform good change. I think the issue here is twofold. Are we on the left willing to admit to our mistakes? And what do we do when those mistakes are ideologically driven?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 January 2025 at 3:28 pm

                      Are we on the left willing to admit to our mistakes?

                      Some on the left are (sometimes) and some aren't. Incumbent politicians in particular are typically reluctant to admit to their mistakes (ideological and otherwise), for obvious reasons. If NZ's politics of kindness was a short-lived departure from the norm, then imagine how long the politics of admitting mistakes would last.

                      Imho, the decision to cancel the iRex project was a mistake, and an ideological swish of a new broom at that, but how would it serve Willis (or anyone) to admit that a year after the fact. We can only hope that as the costs of on-again off-again infrastructure tussles mount, greater consideration will be given to lasting bipartisan agreements about the infrastructure Kiwis need and how to fund it.

                      Dreams are free – for the many, not the few.

                      The problem is that to do what’s good for New Zealanders and New Zealand’s businesses would come at the cost of a reputationally bruising backdown from the Finance Minister. As much as I would hope she will, I don’t think she’ll put New Zealand’s wellbeing ahead of her pride.

                      https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/10/11/clock-is-ticking-on-ferry-fiasco/

                    • weka []
                      22 January 2025 at 3:32 pm

                      agreed, the current system makes if very hard for politicians to be honest. I don’t really expect Ardern to address this even if she did have a change of heart, anymore than I expect Clark to. But it would be amazing if they did now that they are out of politics.

                      I was thinking of the left more broadly. Can we discuss the mistakes that Labour or the Greens or TPM have made, in a way that takes us somewhere useful rather than going round and round in the same old circles?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      22 January 2025 at 3:58 pm

                      Can we discuss the mistakes that Labour or the Greens or TPM have made, in a way that takes us somewhere useful rather than going round and round in the same old circles?

                      Possibly, if the broad left can arrive at a consensus about what those mistakes are/were. Imho, it's best to focus on (big) issues for which a broad consensus exists, but we can't even agree on tax reform, six years after the Tax Working Group made its recommendations.

                      The right, otoh, are ruthless – the consensus of Mammon (the worship of material wealth) rules.

                • Chris …
                  22 January 2025 at 1:53 pm

                  Yes, that's right, but one pivital error was not to guarantee jobs once the mandates were lifted. In the same vein, the temporary nature of the mandates needed to be hammered home.

        • SPC 2.4.4.2
          21 January 2025 at 9:26 pm

          He mentioned vaccine mandates. Not border quarantine and home isolation when infected.

          An infection provide as much protection as a vaccine dose.

      • Jenny 2.4.5
        22 January 2025 at 12:18 pm

        Jenny @2

        21 January 2025 at 10:03 am

        The final dangerous act of a senile old fruit and nut case….

        ,,,,,Of all the American democratic institutions and legal and justice systems being targeted by Trump, America's political elites are the best able to defend, themselves, publicly and in court…..

        Ad @2.4

        21 January 2025 at 2:16 pm

        So disagree.

        We can go on all day about how the law is always right and useful…..

        Whether, the law is always right and useful, or not, people and institutions attacked by Trump, who don't have the benefit of a pardon to hide behind, will have no choice but to use the law to challenge Trump's attacks.

        Few if any of these institutions and individuals will have the resources and platform available to America's liberal political elite.

        • Ad 2.4.5.1
          22 January 2025 at 12:27 pm

          That of course is precisely why Biden had to pre-emptively pardon his family, key officials, and the whole of the Bipartisan Committee that investigated the Jan 6 insurrection.

    • bwaghorn 2.5
      21 January 2025 at 6:03 pm

      How much of trumps motivation to get re-elected do you think comes from his ability to dodge jail because he won?

      • SPC 2.5.1
        21 January 2025 at 6:42 pm

        He claimed he won the election in 2020 and formed a PAC to contest the result, but instead used the money to favour GOP loyalists over others. This was to maintain control over the party and win the nomination for 2024.

        Any candidate is in it to win.

      • Anne 2.5.2
        21 January 2025 at 8:14 pm

        100%

  3. ianmac 3
    21 January 2025 at 10:16 am

    Pretty serious stuff from Anne Salmond on Newsroom. Terrifying?

    Peter Thiel. “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.”

    A grim warning for what is happening via the Regulatory Standards Bill.

    The question is, how can Act, a very small libertarian party, get away with such sweeping, quasi-constitutional initiatives in a liberal democracy like New Zealand?

    According to the advance publicity, Slobodian’s new book, Hayek’s Bastards, traces ways in which neo-liberal ideas are merging with populist attacks on democracy, civil rights, feminism, the environment and climate change.

    https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/01/21/anne-salmond-hayeks-bastards/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=dab0ac5ba2-Daily_Briefing+21.01.2025&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-dab0ac5ba2-95522477&mc_cid=dab0ac5ba2&mc_eid=88a3081e75

    • weka 3.1
      21 January 2025 at 10:35 am

      the thing that has changed is that protofascist libertarians are now emboldened to say this stuff out loud. Thanks Trump voters. And useless left wing parties who've been dithering over neoliberal power.

      It is scary, and it's more scary now because they are saying it out loud. This means the culture has shifted enough for this to be acceptable.

      The reason ACT are getting away with it is because the liberals have fucked up. Instead of presenting a comprehensive vision and policy approach that is an attractive alternative to the right, they've been making a hash of solidarity politics and rejecting anything that isn't neoliberal centrism.

      People don't like being told they're bad/wrong. So of course they're going to look to populist parties that welcome them in. It blows my mind that the left doesn't get this. Better right than elected. Look how that's turning out.

      It's not too late in NZ. But Labour simply winning the next election won't be enough. We, the left, have to change.

      • gsays 3.1.1
        21 January 2025 at 12:10 pm

        "We, the left, have to change."

        Amen to that.

        We have so, so far to go if the squabble about terms for American caramel coloured people, in Mickey's 'Luxon Reshuffle' post is anything to go by.

        • Muttonbird 3.1.1.1
          21 January 2025 at 12:43 pm

          Weeell, it was a self-described libertarian who brought "American caramel coloured people" into it.

          If the left have to change into that, then I'm out.

        • weka 3.1.1.2
          21 January 2025 at 2:00 pm

          that unfortunately is the nature of social media. The ones who think point scoring is more important than political solutions.

          • gsays 3.1.1.2.1
            21 January 2025 at 3:22 pm

            I would suggest social media is just another means to do this.

            I'm picking you remember the '80s and the rise and rise of political correctness.

            Sure, in comedy like lots of other realms, change was needed ( mother in law and my wife is so fat… jokes).

            But- folks of a certain inclination (lefties)took it too far. Being more pure than thou and being barbed with it.

            A kind of Purity Olympics.

            I've also noticed how the left hates being outflanked on the left by others. This would be part of the driving force of the holier than thou attitude.

            • Incognito 3.1.1.2.1.1
              21 January 2025 at 3:38 pm

              Being politically correct and fact-checking are different things that have different purposes.

              When you refer to ‘pure’, what exactly do you mean? I think one easily strays into straw men.

              • weka …
                21 January 2025 at 4:31 pm

                Hoping you're not vegan, but one area outside of conventional politics where it's easy to see purity spirals is in parts of the vegan movement. I've known people in their 20s especially who've been vegan and want to start eating animal products again for health reasons, but they face immense social pressure from their vegan friends and peers.

                The purity spiral is where it's not enough to be semi vegan or even to have doubts, and people would rather lose friends than allow others to differ from them. It's not just the eat animals or not thing, it's a whole set of prescribed behaviours and beliefs that get enforced through social sanctions (and increasingly through work sanctions). You have to believe all the things or you are morally bankrupt.

                I haven't seen purity spirals in politics discussed in quite a while, but I remember the pile ons on NZ pol twitter where people would get destroyed for saying the wrong thing. It was terrible to watch. We can blame twitter platform for that, but that was NZ progressives doing it.

                I think part of what we are seeing now is a result of the liberal left going too far and making belief politics more important than relationships. The people without such super strong convictions find it really off putting. Why would you want to vote for someone who is saying believe the same as me or you will be shunned? At the least, this was a massive own goal for the left, giving the right ammunition to portray us as removing freedoms.

                Obviously there are other serious dynamics at play, including the manipulation of social media and mainstream media.

                • Incognito …
                  21 January 2025 at 5:26 pm

                  That’s ideology and ideological (and other) bias dominating discourse. Sounds to me this is a communication issue, not a fundamental political/philosophical difference of views & opinions. Language and framing are critically important in political discourse but they’re not the goal per se; fact-checking is a useful tool to gain understanding and make well-informed evidence-based arguments, choices, and decisions – PC is a (minor) distraction. The Right, particularly, has learned this and applies it very well to hijack the media with their Orwellian tricks such as double-speak. They are doing it so well that they have turned the tables and use the Left’s own values against itself – the Left has a tendency to kill its own as much as the Right does.

                  • weka …
                    21 January 2025 at 8:37 pm

                    That’s ideology and ideological (and other) bias dominating discourse.

                    exactly. This is the general point I am making when I critique the left. But while I think it's a communication issue, I also think it's about fundamental positions. Or it looks that way, maybe someone can point out if that's not true.

                    For instance, vegans believe that killing or using animals is always wrong. That's a philosophical position.

                    Where vegans believe that everyone should be vegan, that's a political position.

                    Where vegans believe that the way to make everyone vegan is to shun people who stray from the first two, that's the ideological position. Not of veganism, but that it's valid to force people to think and act a certain way.

                    When I critique the liberal left, I am saying that all those things are happening, but it's really the last one that is the problem, and a particular problem for the left because the position that people in society can be forced to think something is antithetical to leftist positions of collective good.

                    It's also a problem for libertarians and I wonder if this is why the conversation can't be had. People react to the critique because it sounds like the RW libertarian critique. But thinking it is valid to force people to become leftist undermines progressive concepts of wellbeing for all. It's really hard for me to understand why this isn't recognised by many.

                    • Incognito …
                      21 January 2025 at 9:17 pm

                      Yes, that makes sense, thank you.

                      I think the progressive Left intrinsically have a harder job at coming up with compelling arguments and persuading others to join them and ‘existing members’ to stay in the tent. This can cause frustration and anger, obviously. But the underlying issue is that there’s no viable alternative yet or at least one that can be explained easily in relatively simple compelling terms that appeal and resonate enough for people to adopt it. At the moment, and at best, it appears to be a swirl of good ideas and vibes that feel disjointed.

                      As evolution has shown us, there are many distinct advantages of unicellular organism organising into multicellular ones at the costs of energy input required. I think that this same principle (biological law?) also applies to higher levels of life as well, including mankind, but this doesn’t provide a blueprint of what it could (not should) look like.

                    • weka []
                      21 January 2025 at 9:30 pm

                      I think the progressive Left intrinsically have a harder job at coming up with compelling arguments and persuading others to join them and ‘existing members’ to stay in the tent

                      How come intrinsically?

                      But the underlying issue is that there’s no viable alternative yet or at least one that can be explained easily in relatively simple compelling terms that appeal and resonate enough for people to adopt it. At the moment, and at best, it appears to be a swirl of good ideas and vibes that feel disjointed.

                      Maybe. I think Corbyn made a good job of it but was stymied by the reactionary forces against him, most damaging were the ones inside his own party. I would count this as the central problem (in NZ too), but it’s true that modern humans are losing our creative imagination to see how things are being done differently.

                      As evolution has shown us, there are many distinct advantages of unicellular organism organising into multicellular ones at the costs of energy input required. I think that this same principle (biological law?) also applies to higher levels of life as well, including mankind, but this doesn’t provide a blueprint of what it could (not should) look like.

                      very cool. I’ve seen this used as a framework for understanding change by those insisting we can create a better world while in the polycrisis. Intervening at tipping points so we tip in the good direction not the bad one (to put is simplistically).

              • gsays …
                21 January 2025 at 5:26 pm

                I'm not talking about fact checking.

                The exchange that is under Mickey's post on Luxon's reshuffle is a good example of folk being more correct, purer and (dare I say it) woke.

                The original point was that it was poor form to comment on Simeon Brown's appearance/stature.

                This led to whom the comment 'When they go low we go high' is attributed to'.

                Then that morphed into the (politically) correct terminology for an American person of colour.

                So far so tedious, but coz it's lefties involved there are the unnecessary barbs- "decent people", "do all black people look alike" etc.

                All of which detracts from the original and important point, because having a crack at someone's appearance is dirty pool and a distraction from their political short-comings.

                After all, we (the royal we that is) weren't impressed with the horse comparisons to a recent PM.

                Plus, as this thread started out, I was tautoko weka's observation that the left needs to unify a truckload more especially if we really want this to be a one term government.

                • Incognito …
                  21 January 2025 at 6:02 pm

                  Ok, thanks.

                  I tend to struggle (i.e. I get confused) with criticisms of alleged ‘pure/purity’ of the Left as being a root-cause for ‘something bad’. Ironically, the Left (or rather, Labour) weren’t so ideologically pure when they enabled Roger Douglas to introduce (unleash) neoliberalism here in NZ.

                  Unfortunately, this thread and Post have descended into rabbit holes such as PC, mockery (aka body-shaming), belief politics, and so on, none of this points or leads to unity.

                  FWIW, say what you mean, mean what you say, and without causing deliberate offence, but stick to evidence as much as is realistic and warranted under the circumstances and context, guided by firm but not rigid values & principles. I believe this is as useful a guide as any for robust constructive debate.

                  • gsays …
                    21 January 2025 at 6:57 pm

                    Yes, especially to last paragraph and drop the snark.

                    I don't think people are fully aware of the damage, distrust and disconnect done by the Covid response. Very much so those on the dissenting side.

                    Dissenters weren't all cookers, right wing, conspiracy theorists or unhinged. I feel the disconnect felt by many is also an overlooked aspect to the last election result. Less about 'punishing Labour, more Labour weren't or forgot to talk to them.

                    • Incognito …
                      21 January 2025 at 7:25 pm

                      Is your or Weka’s argument that the government response to Covid-19 somehow is an example of what the (NZ) Left are doing ‘wrong’? Somewhere early on in this thread it went off track onto criticisms of PC-pure language and being, or not being, ‘pure’ enough for some dogmatic Lefties. Meanwhile, the Coalition is continuing its blitzkrieg of dismantling the State as we know it and replacing it with a new regime of libertarian and neo-liberal rules & regulations that will last beyond the next change of government in similar ways as did Rogernomics.

                    • gsays …
                      21 January 2025 at 8:12 pm

                      Not sure how to reply to yr last comment, the Reply tag isn't there.

                      "Is your or Weka’s argument that the government response to Covid-19 somehow is an example of what the (NZ) Left are doing ‘wrong’?"

                      No, not from where I am at.

                      The reason I bought up Covid response was that it had done huge damage- socially and politically. With the notion that the left needs to organise (work out what it stands for), coalesce around certain issues and unite. The uniting and coalescing becomes difficult if one is scorned or shunned for minor perceived infractions. Mislabelling a caramel coloured person for example.

                      All the more important for the reasons you point out.

                    • Incognito []
                      21 January 2025 at 8:28 pm

                      Got it, and I’m happy to leave aside a discussion of Covid-19.

                      The uniting and coalescing becomes difficult if one is scorned or shunned for minor perceived infractions. Mislabelling a caramel coloured person for example.

                      Uniting and coalescing take effort and energy – the Right has got a much easier job in fragmenting and atomising society.

                      Is that mislabelling and the corresponding reaction, silly as it is, a cause or a symptom of the ‘disease’ that’s affecting the Left, in your opinion?

                    • SPC …
                      21 January 2025 at 8:28 pm

                      Mislabelling a caramel coloured person for example.

                      When, where and how?

                      Both African American and black American terms are in common use and without any PC issue. And most do not quibble about the amount of colour involved.

                    • weka …
                      21 January 2025 at 9:02 pm

                      Is your or Weka’s argument that the government response to Covid-19 somehow is an example of what the (NZ) Left are doing ‘wrong’?

                      it wasn't my argument either, but to put it in that context, my view on the government response is that we were incredibly fortunate to have that government at that time, that they did very important things in managing a very difficult situation, *and* there were areas where they fucked up. How they handled the mandates was one of them. I don't mean the mandates were wrong (I think they were a necessary evil), but I agree with gsays that the way they were done caused a lot of resentment and Labour were largely unable to address that ever since (for lots of reasons, including ideology, but also pandemic burnout).

                      Somewhere early on in this thread it went off track onto criticisms of PC-pure language and being, or not being, ‘pure’ enough for some dogmatic Lefties.

                      I think gsays was saying that tone policing is not a priority given everything else that is going on, and that a big emphasis on it is part of the problem the left has. It's not a minor issue, it's part of the core dynamic of we're right and everyone should agree with us.

                      Meanwhile, the Coalition is continuing its blitzkrieg of dismantling the State as we know it and replacing it with a new regime of libertarian and neo-liberal rules & regulations that will last beyond the next change of government in similar ways as did Rogernomics.

                      I think it's worse than that. I think they are doing the next iteration of setting NZ up for fascism or authoritarianism (FJK's government was the first iteration). Unless the left/progressives come up with an attractive and viable alternative, I think NZ is heading down our own version of what is happening in the US and the UK. We're lucky that we still have time to change.

                    • Incognito []
                      21 January 2025 at 9:36 pm

                      I agree that ‘tone policing’ is relatively unimportant in the greater scheme of things although being civil and respectful don’t take much effort and go a long way – some people like to be rude a-holes to others they disagree with.

                      I don’t accept the accusation that the ‘core dynamic’ or ‘core problem’ of the Left is “we’re right and everyone should agree with us” – there are certainly a few hardline dogmatic Lefties (as there are on the Right) around but I’d argue that they’re a minority. In other words, I think this is an annoying meme that seems to have taken hold on both sides of the spectrum with the Left being the main loser.

                      I have labelled this Coalition neo-authoritarian from the early days and indeed there are growing signs of proto-fascism. As I just wrote in another comment (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21-01-2025/#comment-2021913), TINA, for all intents and purposes.

                    • gsays …
                      21 January 2025 at 10:07 pm

                      @ Incog

                      "Is that mislabelling and the corresponding reaction, silly as it is, a cause or a symptom of the ‘disease’ that’s affecting the Left, in your opinion?"

                      A symptom. Loads of reasons we had for coming together either don't exist or there are other priorities.

                      Couple that with consumerism spending billions telling us how important we are. We can look past wee indiscretions if there is a larger cause in play.

                      Our politicians are more like managers than leaders. No vision or bigger picture for us to aspire to.

            • weka 3.1.1.2.1.2
              21 January 2025 at 4:37 pm

              I think it started there, but it's not that straightforward right? Important progressive politics got labelled PC. But yeah, in hindsight it looks like the merging of liberal politics and neoliberalism and the dropping of class politics.

              Somehow in that, progressive politics got lost and this neoliberal hybrid emerged that was more about the pressure to be pure. I remember early debates on TS about sexism and racism, but the point of that wasn't to frame white men as bad, it was to talk about the systems and to change them.

              The current push to say white men are evil is fucked up and I don't understand why so many liberals cannot see the problem. Especially in country like NZ where Māori have a culture of care and respect for people (he tangata etc, and giving mana). That the left can't even have this conversation is very troubling.

              • tWig …
                21 January 2025 at 9:33 pm

                Weka, talking about facts, WHO is saying white men are evil in today's NZ?

                • weka …
                  21 January 2025 at 9:44 pm

                  don't have the energy to go get specific, cited examples, but the whole 'Karen' phenomenon is another example. What started out as a genuine political critique of how some groups of white women behave in relation to black people (specifically in the US context), morphed into trying to make out that white women as a class are bad/wrong, and then also became a handy stick legitimising sexists (some of whom are liberals).

                  Hardly anyone says all white men are evil. But the framing has shifted from white men have privilege in society because of structural issues, to white men have privilege in society, to white men are a problem.

                  When white men try to talk about that, they get shut down. By that stage we are a very long way from being able to talk about both how the patriarchal system privileging some groups means oppressing others (and what to do about that system) and from being able to talk about the specific problems that working class white men have under the same system.

                  It's not a coincidence that that happened during neoliberalism that has stripped Labour from its working class roots and seen voters and supporters abandon it en masse. But how often does the left talk about working class white men now?

                  • tWig …
                    21 January 2025 at 9:54 pm

                    WHEN are white men 'shut down'? Challenged, maybe. But Julian Batchelar, etc, etc still get to say what they want, in a thousand forums.

                    • weka …
                      21 January 2025 at 11:41 pm

                      do you think Labour has abandoned class politics? I'm asking because you appear to have just invoked a prominent racist activist male as a way of avoiding class analysis. It makes me think you don't understand the argument here.

            • tWig 3.1.1.2.1.3
              21 January 2025 at 9:20 pm

              Probably, gsays, people called out offensiveness without being 'nice' about it. Remember, you're free to say anything you want. But of course then you must face the consequences of using abusive language, even if you as speaker don't perceive it that way.

              If some 'lefties' 'policed' your language on others' behalf, then I don't think you understand how much micro-agression women used to, and minorities still do, suffer in NZ. Hidden under 'just joshing around'.

              The sticks&stones chant is wrong: being constantly sledged in the workplace, for example, can drive people to suicide.

              PC language training is quite similar to sexual consent training. You have to step into other peoples’ shoes, and understand that what seems harmless and apparently consensual to you is not so to them, if they feel powerless to object.

              • tWig …
                21 January 2025 at 9:39 pm

                FYi, not being exposed to social media pile-ons much myself, at least one can disengage from that easily enough by using the off-switch, unless doxed.

                And it happens in the other direction as well, see poorly chosen wording of Marama Davidson at Posie Parker debacle. And often with greater consequence for the speaker.

                • weka …
                  21 January 2025 at 9:46 pm

                  self isolating while useful in protecting oneself from bullying mobs, doesn't actually stop bullying mobs. On twitter for instance, someone using the off switch tends to give the mob a sense of power and they move on to the next one.

              • gsays …
                21 January 2025 at 11:17 pm

                Alexi Sayle sums it up well here in less than a minute.

  4. Populuxe 4
    21 January 2025 at 10:25 am

    So Elmo is mask off, just blatantly giving n@zi salutes on live international tv. Super. Just fantastic. I couldn't enough to vomit as much as I would like.

  5. joe90 5
    21 January 2025 at 10:39 am

    >30 years too late.

    Joe Biden Grants Clemency To Leonard Peltier

    The ailing Native American rights activist has been in prison for nearly 50 years after the U.S. government lied to put him there.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-leonard-peltier-clemency_n_67608b04e4b0d06419ec6367

    https://web.archive.org/web/20181201005042/https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/ct-leonard-peltier-should-be-released-in-the-interest-of-justice-20170117-story.html

  6. Drowsy M. Kram 6
    21 January 2025 at 10:44 am

    Shows PM John Key standing on an angry sea monster that represents NZ. He is banging 'For sale' signs into the monster's body. [2012]

    Let’s not play into Seymour’s hands [20 Nov 2024]
    The message against the coalition Treaty Principles Bill should be simple: the Treaty protects all New Zealanders from corporate exploitation

    NAct MPs offering a tribute to their deity. Aotearoa New Zealand on sale – again sad

  7. Anne 7
    21 January 2025 at 11:10 am

    Take a look at the expression on the faces of Biden, Harris and the Clintons. Gold!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-e9bb4f21-518d-4242-a1b1-71250990e639

  8. tWig 8
    21 January 2025 at 11:14 am

    Chewie and Pat back at Big Hairy News. They evicerate Luxon's chair-shuffling.

  9. adam 9
    21 January 2025 at 12:19 pm

    So is destiny church going to lose it's charity status for bearing false witness?

    Is the dirty politics crowd ever going to face justice?

    Nothing wrong so far.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/stats-nz-inquiry-clears-whanau-ora-of-2023-census-data-breach/MSHXHJ7HUFGDLO3D7UEU54XWGI/

    • alwyn 9.1
      21 January 2025 at 12:37 pm

      I think that an enquiry of the Stats. Department actions, set up and given its terms of reference by the Department, rather deserve the immortal comment by Mandy Rice-Davies when told that Lord Astor denied any affair with her said "Well he would, wouldn't he"

      Of course this enquiry found a result that was what was wanted.

      • Obtrectator 9.1.1
        21 January 2025 at 1:34 pm

        I think most of us know about one particular enquiry (in the early 80s) which didn't deliver the desired result. There were "consequences".

      • adam 9.1.2
        21 January 2025 at 8:30 pm

        Of course this enquiry found a result that was what was wanted.

        So do you agree or disagree that Destiny Church Should be punished?

        • alwyn 9.1.2.1
          21 January 2025 at 8:37 pm

          Suppose you were a member of the Green Party.

          Then suppose you made a comment that was insulting to a member of the Government.

          Should the joint leaders of the Green party be jailed because of your action?

          • tWig 9.1.2.1.1
            21 January 2025 at 9:47 pm

            But the outcome of Destiny losing its charitable status is a financial outcome, not a physical punishment, surely?

          • adam 9.1.2.1.2
            21 January 2025 at 9:57 pm

            So lying for finical gain is all good with you alwyn?

            Because you have a real case of missing the point here. Say what you want about the greens, labour, national, act or who ever. The point here though, is they lied for finical gain, with the bonus that it was a political hit job.

            As such let me ask again – is lying for finical gain enough for you, for them to lose their tax free status or not? Which is the appropriate punishment for this type of crime.

            • alwyn 9.1.2.1.2.1
              22 January 2025 at 9:15 am

              Please tell me what crime you believe the Destiny Church has committed? And what evidence do you have for your claim? And who, exactly is supposed to have lied?

              And before you do any of that. Answer the question I asked you.

              I assume you mean "financial" by the way.

              • lprent …
                22 January 2025 at 2:51 pm

                From google AI…

                Destiny Church in New Zealand lost its tax-free charity status in 2022. The Auckland Trust was removed from the Charities Register because it failed to file Annual Returns.

                Umm https://register.charities.govt.nz/Charity/CC29039

                They apparently

                And google AI again

                Yes, Destiny Church in New Zealand has charitable status with the Department of Internal Affairs. The Destiny International Trust, which is part of the Destiny International Group, is also registered as a charity.

                Sounds like the usual ditch and restart musical chairs that the Companies Act allows for dropping debts in receivership and liquidations. Obviously the Charities Acts do as well.

                I look for that practice when I am looking for 'legitimate' scam artists. Legal, but indicates an untrustworthy intent.

                Ok – I finally managed to read the article past the paywall and saw the Density Church reference

                The report said allegations were made against Manurewa Marae from “whistleblowers” but the report does not go into details about the claims. The report refers this matter to the Privacy Commissioner.

                In a separate report from Dr Rawiri Taonui, he said one of the whistleblowers was from Oranga Tamariki, another from the Ministry of Social Development, and four from Manurewa Marae, but none of them still work at the respective organisations. Taonui said they all had links to the Destiny Church.

                That does read like standard dirty politics tactics. Probably legal. A waste of everyone's time.

                Reports by “whistleblowers” in June 2023 revealed $100 kai vouchers were being given to whānau who completed a Census form.

                The Stats NZ report confirms this was a contractual term in the signed agreement between Stats NZ and WOCA.

                “Under the contract this was described as a ‘whānau contribution’ to encourage and support whānau to participate. The contract stated this ‘could include the use of grocery vouchers’.” Up to $1 million from the $5m contract could be set aside for incentives.

                and

                It also states: “By July 13, 2023, the engagement was deemed a success, with Stats NZ providing the Minister of Statistics with the following as part of a suggested response to a Parliamentary Question.

                “Regarding achieved outcomes, I am advised that as of May 4, just before WOCA field activities began, Auckland North had an estimated individual return rate for the Māori descent population of 82%, with Auckland South at 64.7%.

                “WOCA exceeded their target of reaching 10,000 non-responding and partially responding dwellings across Auckland, which contributed to an increase in return rates from Māori. As of June 30, 2023, the estimated individual return rate for the Māori descent population in Auckland North was 87.3%, and Auckland South was 70.3%.”

                However as you implicitly point out, there is nothing unlawful in being a lying sack of shit, and there was no actual evidence that the Density Church are a cause of them being lying sacks of shit

                I'd happily publish the names of the lying arseholes who just wasted a lot of taxpayers money time with what is pretty obviously a spurious claim released as part of a dirty politics move. Anyone know what their names are?

                • alwyn …
                  22 January 2025 at 8:16 pm

                  Your last paragraph illustrates why people may be very loath to come forward with a complaint.

                  "I'd happily publish the names of the lying arseholes who just wasted a lot of taxpayers money time with what is pretty obviously a spurious claim released as part of a dirty politics move. Anyone know what their names are?"

                  People who bring forward claims like this can sometimes suffer attacks that sound a bit like that. Is it any wonder that they are unwilling to speak up?

                  It may seem to you that it is "pretty obviously a spurious claim" but the people to whom it was made, and who required some sort of investigation don't appear to have been quite so sure.

                  • Muttonbird …
                    22 January 2025 at 8:34 pm

                    Did you read this comment by MS about the time Cameron Slater tried to hack The Standard?

                    I'm no IT expert, but if that hack was successful your details could have been in the hands of an extremist vigilante who has dreams of being above the law. This was your guy doing the hacking, but still something for you to think about.

                    • alwyn …
                      22 January 2025 at 8:49 pm

                      Well number one. It doesn't appear to have been a hack by anybody. It was a complaint by a number of people about activities that went on at the Manurewa marae.

                      Number two. It doesn't seem to have had anything to do with Cameron Slater.

                      Number three. What do you mean "your guy"? Why do you feel the need to smear me as well as the people who were whistle blowers by linking us all to Slater who appears, from what I have read about him, to be some sort of a creep.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      22 January 2025 at 9:22 pm

                      The complaints appear to have been politically motivated because they were both complaints against an already approved process, and also complaints by people affiliated with Density Church, a political opponent of TPM.

                      You brought up the reluctance people might have in making complaints in a political environment. Just saying that we kind of do that here every time we comment and despite the pseudonyms and the burner emails we might employ, IP addresses are traceable to those who might want to use them. Cameron Slater is one of those people.

                      It's convenient you now distance yourself from Slater, but in reality he is your guy because you share politics with him. You always have.

                  • lprent …
                    23 January 2025 at 1:36 am

                    Sure. But the counter argument is about spurious complaints that look like they have been essentially fabricated for political effect or for defamatory purposes – like these ones appear to have been. This clearly wasn’t whistle blowing. This was a deliberate attempt to spread misinformation. It is no different to what that sack of shit Cameron Slater was paid to do when he defamed Matthew Blomfield and others. Such actions should carry consequences.

                    The claims that I read in the news reports were

                    1. That the census collected data was being used for canvassing by the local TPM candidate.
                    2. That local TPM candidate via the organisation was ‘treating’.

                    Both are clearly refuted by this report. Both would have been criminal offences.

                    It was used for the contracted purpose – to increase uptake of Maori in the census. As contracted to Stats for the census- who ultimately provide the information that is used for the electoral bounds (mesh blocks).

                    I have never been in favour of whistle blowing being a pain-free activity, and in practice it usually often isn’t. Whistle blowing protections shouldn’t be there for deliberate malicious misinformation.

                    That should be treated exactly the same turning in a malicious complaint or report to the police – s24 of the Summary Offences Act

                    24 False allegation or report to Police

                    Every person is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or a fine not exceeding $2,000 who,—
                    (a) contrary to the fact and without a belief in the truth of the statement, makes or causes to be made to any Police employee any written or verbal statement alleging that an offence has been committed; or
                    (b) with the intention of causing wasteful deployment, or of diverting deployment, of Police personnel or resources, or being reckless as to that result,—
                    (i) makes a statement to any person that gives rise to serious apprehension for his own safety or the safety of any person or property, knowing that the statement is false; or
                    (ii) behaves in a manner that is likely to give rise to such apprehension, knowing that such apprehension would be groundless.

                    People who bring forward claims like this can sometimes suffer attacks that sound a bit like that. Is it any wonder that they are unwilling to speak up?

                    Ok – so where exactly did these people make a ‘claim’ to? They apparently didn’t make it to any responsible authority. Not to the police. Not to the organisation. Not to the contracting agency – Stats. Not to a legal representative or a MP.

                    Perhaps you can enlighten us before making dickhead comments like that.

                    but the people to whom it was made,

                    So who were they? Did they make a complaint or report to a responsible authority? Enlighten me…. If I had to bet and based on the report, we’d find the the irresponsible arseholes who made these claims never went near anyone responsible.

                    It sounds like they or some activists that they talked to just leaked it to a journalist. Any triggering official complaint or whistle blowing was at least 3rd or 4th hand.

                    … and who required some sort of investigation don’t appear to have been quite so sure.

                    The people who required some investigation and who did it were the Stats department. Who it appears had never been contacts with these claims, but were a organisation who had a unsubstantiated accusation in the news

                    I can’t see how the claimants should have protection as a ‘whistle blower’. As far as I can see they acted without any responsibility based on nothing more than gossip.

                    Sure we have a legal avenue for dealing with that. But it is a civil case. In effect it is defamation – which is exactly what these irresponsible arseholes relied on. They didn’t make a claim to responsible authorities and get protected under whistle blower protections. They appear to have deliberately avoided criminal consequences and just lied to a reporter instead.

                    This is exactly the playbook of dirty politics. It is what Cameron Slater and Dermot Nottingham routinely did. What I think that Jordan Williams has done a lot of, most notably by betraying a friend. Sure it causes inordinate amounts of time in civil court. Frequently losing. It is why Slater and Nottingham have been bankrupted by court ordered costs and judgements.

                    It is dirty politics and doesn’t need whistle blower protections. What it needs is a law of malicious criminal defamation.

                    In the absence of that, public identification should be required. As far as I can tell, many of the people who make this style of irresponsible claims are serial offenders – certainly all of the ones I have ever looked at are. A public record would be a good deterrent against repeated spurious claims.

  12. SPC 12
    21 January 2025 at 5:26 pm

    Trump intends to deny the children of undocumented migrants living in the US status as citizens.

    Birthright citizenship, however, is enshrined in the US constitution and would require a two-thirds vote in both chambers of Congress to change.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyjqgl2erzo

  13. adam 13
    21 January 2025 at 8:31 pm

    This government?

    구더기 무서워 장 못 담그랴

    gu-deo-gi mu-seo-weo jang mot dam-geu-rya

    • Chris 13.1
      23 January 2025 at 1:33 pm

      Yes, I see how this could be an apt comparison, except in this case our government and the 굼벵이 are one and the same.