Open mike 21/05/2022

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1. SPC 1

   21 May 2022 at 7:07 am

   Scoobydoo or his elbow?

   

   No elbow left untapped in this campaign.

   Every vote for @KristyMcBain matters. pic.twitter.com/sQyB3iY8rb

   — Anthony Albanese (@AlboMP) July 4, 2020
   • SPC 1.1

     22 May 2022 at 12:41 am

     Well elbowed.
2. Ad 2

   21 May 2022 at 7:39 am

   Excellent signal by WorkSafe to prosecute exCEO of Auckland Port Tony Gibson for the deaths under his watch.

   Will send a shiver through any CEO with a high risk workplace.
   • KJT 2.1

     21 May 2022 at 9:59 am

     Virtue signalling by Work Safe, which will make the current top down cover your arse with paper after the fact, approach to safety, worse.

     . Ports of Auckland was much more than one manager

     Like Work Safe, prosecuting every but themselves, who are equally guilty, over White Island.

     At least when we actually had Trade Unions, employees felt they could act on safety concerns
     • gypsy 2.1.1

       21 May 2022 at 10:15 am

       Yeah well that really helped the Pike River miners. Not.

       "But despite the overwhelming evidence that there was something seriously and dangerously wrong at the Pike Rive mine, the officials of the EPMU did nothing.
       The mine opened in November 2008 and on not one occasion did the EPMU initiate industrial action or even criticise PRC'S safety standards, even after a group of workers walked off the job to protest the lack of basic emergency equipment. The walk out by miners was revealed by miner Brent Forrester. He told TVNZ’s Sunday on December 5 2010 that he once helped organise a walkout of about 10 miners to protest the lack of basic emergency equipment, including stretchers and an emergency transport vehicle. They received no support from the EPMU. Andrew Little even insisted that PRC "had a good health and safety committee that’s been very active."
       • KJT 2.1.1.1

         21 May 2022 at 11:40 am

         You missed the bit where Unions have buggerrall power to do anything, these days.
         • gypsy 2.1.1.1.1

           21 May 2022 at 11:44 am

           What, not even speak out their members concerns?

           "EPMU National secretary Andrew Little (now a Labour MP) told the New Zealand Herald on November 22 2010 that there was "nothing unusual about Pike River or this mine that we’ve been particularly concerned about". He then appeared on TVNZ's Close Up to again defend PRC management."
         • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1.1.2

           21 May 2022 at 1:05 pm

           It's obvious why ratbag employers and other profit-takers are anti-union.

           A trade union (labor union in American English), often simply referred to as a union, is an organization of workers intent on "maintaining or improving the conditions of their employment", such as attaining better wages and benefits (such as vacation, health care, and retirement), improving working conditions, improving safety standards, establishing complaint procedures, developing rules governing status of employees (rules governing promotions, just-cause-conditions for termination) and protecting the integrity of their trade through the increased bargaining power wielded by solidarity among workers.
           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union
           • gypsy 2.1.1.1.2.1

             21 May 2022 at 1:34 pm

             Unions outlived their place decades ago. They became corrupt and incompetent. It's why workers left them in droves.
             • Incognito …

               21 May 2022 at 1:45 pm

               If you lie down with dogs, you’ll get up with fleas, but you still won’t have doggy breath.

               Based on the returns received by the Ministry of Business, Innovation & Employment, total union membership as of 1 March 2020 was 380,659. This represents 16.42 percent of employees in the labour force. Total union membership increased by 2.0 percent compared to the previous year.

               https://www.companiesoffice.govt.nz/all-registers/registered-unions/annual-return-membership-reports/
               • gypsy …

                 21 May 2022 at 2:01 pm

                 So 83% choose not to be in a union. Even more so when you take out the around 65% of those 16% who work in education or health etc, ie for the government.

                 And how does that 16.42% compare with the 1970's by the way?

                 "But in March 1981 about 50,000 people joined an anti-union march down Auckland’s Queen St. The ‘Kiwis Care’ march was organised by Tania Harris, a 22-year-old sales representative. Ticker tape flew from shop windows and a stereo shop blasted the national anthem. Some people openly wept. Harris had tapped into public anger over a series of strikes that had stopped international flights, sailings of Cook Strait ferries, and beer deliveries. Many people believed unions wielded too much power and were wrecking the country. Anger had been on display the day before, when up to 4,000 striking unionists marched the same route. Fist-waving shoppers and businessmen had booed, hissed and abused the strikers, calling them ‘traitors to New Zealand’ and demanding they ‘get back to work’."
                 • Incognito …

                   21 May 2022 at 2:48 pm

                   I’m sure you were in that March march 1981 to show your anti-solidarity with unions.

                   Here are some answers for you, since you show such a keen interest in NZ unions:

                   https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/clew/news/union-membership-in-new-zealand-shows-further-growth

                   Since you obviously have been searching and reading Te Ara, here’s the answer to your other very important and relevant question: https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/22264/percentage-of-union-members

                   How on Earth did you miss that????

                   So, it is clear that union membership in NZ has been very steady since 1996, which is a quarter of a century. Doesn’t quite fit your narrative, does it now?
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 3:04 pm

                     "Doesn’t quite fit your narrative, does it now?"

                     I guess you don't understand my 'narrative then, because it fits it perfectly.

                     You see I didn't ask you about 1996, did I. I asked about the 1970's, when people were compelled to join unions.

                     What your very interesting graph shows, is that when compulsory union membership ended, workers voted with their feet, and membership dropped from a shade under 50% to, well bugger all.

                     And here's the point you have so beautifully made for me. In the 30+ years since union membership was made voluntary, unions have had plenty of time to prove their worth, and yet an even smaller % of workers (16.42% by your own data) choose to join a union in 2002 than the 20% in 1996. That's some kind of failure.

                     BTW I was indeed in the 1981 March on Queen Street. Same year I attended campaign rallies for Bill Rowling, including one at the Auckland Town Hall. Workers groups across the centuries have done amazing work for workers, often at great personal cost. The NZ edition by the 1980's had become a corrupt rabble.
                   • Incognito []

                     21 May 2022 at 4:01 pm

                     Nope, you narrative was “They became corrupt and incompetent. It’s why workers left them in droves.”

                     Which is not accurate by a long shot and simply a reflection of your one-eyed view of unions, which you’ve so beautifully confirmed for us here, so thank you for that.

                     Over the last quarter of a century unions have proven their worth and even grown their membership over the last few years to just under 400,000 members. Not bad for an incompetent and “corrupt rabble”, IMHO, and nowhere “some kind of failure”, which is just your wishful thinking and biased view again clouding your thinking.

                     I’d say that it doesn’t confirm either your narrative of “Unions outlived their place decades ago.”

                     BTW, it was 2020, not 2002.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 4:17 pm

                     " you narrative was “They became corrupt and incompetent. It’s why workers left them in droves.”

                     Nope. My full narrative was

                     Unions outlived their place decades ago. They became corrupt and incompetent. It's why workers left them in droves."

                     "Not bad for an incompetent and “corrupt rabble”, IMHO, and nowhere “some kind of failure”, which is just your wishful thinking and biased view again clouding your thinking."</em

                     When a movements membership drops from close to 50% to 20% and then 30 years later to 16%, that’s a failure by any measure.

                     EDIT – Apparently 60% of all union members are in the public sector. And 62% of public sector workers are in unions. No wonder you’re showing an increase in gross numbers in the past year or so.
                   • Incognito []

                     21 May 2022 at 4:52 pm

                     All three inaccurate parts of your silly narrative were in my previous comment, i.e., your full narrative. I split it into two parts, clearly labelling as “your narrative” both times, because they were so disjointed and unhinged from reality anyway. If you say them backwards they almost start to make some sense.

                     Truth hurts sometimes, doesn’t it? Nearly 400,000 union members in NZ and consistent membership over a quarter of a century is just too hard for you to accept. You sound desperate when you have to dig for stats from the 1970s and before the introduction of the Employment Contracts Act in 1991 to find something that may possibly suit your twisted narrative.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 4:58 pm

                     "Truth hurts sometimes, doesn’t it? Nearly 400,000 union members in NZ and consistent membership over a quarter of a century is just too hard for you to accept. "

                     When you're desperately clinging on to gross numbers when the % of the workforce has declined from around 50% to 16%, it's not me the truth is hurting.

                     The workers have spoken and they've said 'piss off'.
                   • Incognito []

                     21 May 2022 at 5:34 pm

                     Unions had no special status in the process because the ECA [Employment Contracts Act 1991] promoted direct bargaining between employer and employee. If they could not agree, the dispute went to an Employment Tribunal and, if necessary, to an Employment Court. By 1999 the Tribunal had a backlog of over 3,000 cases, so it took up to a year to deliver a ruling.

                     https://teara.govt.nz/en/strikes-and-labour-disputes/page-10

                     Nearly 400,000 workers in NZ still decide each year that (their) union membership is worth having and apparently oblivious of incompetence and corruption as alleged by you without a shred of evidence to support this.

                     Ouch, that must hurt you. Now, who’s the desperate one here?
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 5:43 pm

                     "Now, who’s the desperate one here?"

                     Not me. I'm on the side of the 84% who say no.
                   • Incognito []

                     21 May 2022 at 6:00 pm

                     Of course you are, because you cannot stand (for) incompetence and corruption and you wave your fist and hiss at the nearly 400,000 New Zealanders who voluntarily join a union each year, just as you did in the March march in 1981. I don’t expect you to give up on your long grudge against unions; that would take more than an epiphany of miraculous proportions.

                     I have a feeling you’re not even in the labour force.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 6:10 pm

                     "you wave your fist and hiss at the nearly 400,000 New Zealanders who voluntarily join a union each year, "

                     Not at all. It's their choice entirely. The 16%.

                     "I have a feeling you’re not even in the labour force."

                     I work for a living, as a paid employee.
                   • Incognito []

                     21 May 2022 at 6:30 pm

                     I hope they pay you well enough and don’t take advantage of your good nature.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 9:21 pm

                     "I have a new favourite year for you: 1937."

                     You've really got this bad, haven't you. You're so desperate you've gone from referencing the gross number of union members to now the number of unions! The number of unions is about as relevant as fish in a pond. what % of the workforce are in a union? 16%. How many choose not to be? 84%.

                     Now what will you try next?
                   • Incognito []

                     21 May 2022 at 9:39 pm

                     I don’t need to do anything next, as I’m just showing and showing again the holes in your short & shaky narrative that are as big as Steven Joyce’s imaginary budget holes and you haven’t provided one single decent counter-argument or support for your allegation of incompetence and corruption. Couldn’t find it in Te Ara, could you? Hint: the key (time) point is the year 1991.

                     Anyway, “84%” doesn’t sound quite as impressive as “nearly 400,000”, does it? How is that possible if they’ve outlived their place decades ago, as you allege? Unless you’re wrong, of course.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 9:46 pm

                     Now look what I've just found, in an article trumpeting "Union Membership in New Zealand shows further growth":

                     "Union membership density in New Zealand has changed little since December 2008 when 21 percent of those in jobs were union members. "

                     Now that was for the year ended 31 December 2018.

                     Now let's see. In the 10 years between 2008 and 2018 , union membership 'changed little', so still around 21%. Yet by your own figures, by 2020 union membership was down to 16%. So between 2018 and 2020, union membership dropped from 'around 21%' to 16% of the workforce.

                     Now even you have to agree, that's not a good look.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 9:51 pm

                     "84%” doesn’t sound quite as impressive as “nearly 400,000”, does it?"

                     Your argument is like comparing NZ covid deaths with Monserrat and arguing they managed covid better than we did.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 9:57 pm

                     "or support for your allegation of incompetence and corruption."

                     Well there's a whole episode here.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   21 May 2022 at 2:54 pm

                   Gypsy, I feel your antipathy towards unions, but it's not for me. Couldn't wait to join my first workplace union in the 80s – was a member for over thirty years and found them helpful (on one occasion very helpful), to the extent that I did a little voluntary committee work for them.

                   Unions aren't everyone's cup of tea, of course, what with all the corruption and incompetence, but you have to wonder if employee rights today would be better or worse but for union advocacy.

                   The most common types of domestic corruption cited by respondents included undisclosed conflicts of interest, supplier kickbacks and personal favours. More than a quarter (26%) of the reported incidents were from organisations with more than 5000 employees. And 68% of incidents involved only private/business individuals. No industry was immune with all sectors experiencing at least some reported incidents in the last five years.

                   Concerns about 'rogue employers' in seasonal worker scheme as corruption complaint investigated by Immigration NZ

                   Unions are organisations that represent groups of workers with employers. You have total freedom over whether or not you’ll join a union in your workplace. It is illegal for your employer to influence that decision.

                   If you choose to join a union, you will pay a membership fee, which can be paid directly or taken out of your wages.

                   More information about unions and which ones cover your occupation is available on the Council of Trade Unions (CTU) website.

                   Find your union | Council of Trade Unions
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 3:15 pm

                     My views don't reflect my personal experience with unions (which has been almost entirely positive). They reflect more on my views on the history of the union movement, here and in Australia and the UK. Unions shifted from being genuinely interested in worker safety and conditions of employment to something entirely different.
                   • pat …

                     21 May 2022 at 4:07 pm

                     There were Unions…and then there were Unions, some animals were more equal than others….an observation as an ex shop steward.
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   21 May 2022 at 3:26 pm

                   Unions shifted from being genuinely interested in worker safety and conditions of employment to something entirely different.

                   Don't know about "something entirely different", but imho the union I belonged to was "genuinely interested in worker safety and conditions of employment" for the duration of my membership.
                   Individual results may vary
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 3:45 pm

                     
             • KJT …

               21 May 2022 at 3:33 pm

               Excellent sarcasm. Gypsy.
             • rod …

               21 May 2022 at 4:40 pm

               Hey gypo, do you think the tax payers union are corrupt and incompetent.?
               • gypsy …

                 21 May 2022 at 4:53 pm

                 You'd need to ask me first whether I thought they were a 'union' in the context of this discussion.

                 My answer would be no. I suspect they were taking the michael when they named themselves.
             • KJT …

               21 May 2022 at 5:01 pm

               Bollocks.

               Congratulations about condensing all the right wing BS about Unions into a few paragraphs.

               Unions became too competent at looking after their members. Which is why they had to go. Can't have employees keeping over 40% of the money their work earns.

               It was not corruption, except for the people who may have accepted money to stop Unions opposing the Employments contract Act.

               Some Unions in Oz and the USA were run by criminal elements. Not in NZ.

               A few Unions, out of hundreds, got drunk with power and demanded a lot more for their members. Which is actually their job! Incidentally still taking much less from the community than the Union of landlords do now. At least, unlike now, their pay stayed in the community, instead of going to offshore profits.
               There was a lot of anti Union bullshit around at the time, which many people bought into, just like now, from a right wing biased media. Like the media ignoring the Seamans Union, while on strike, offering to take passengers and cars, unpaid across Cook Strait. Or the Marsden point Refinery contractor Managers intentionally causing a strike to cover up lack of material deliveries.
               Those same shopkeepers who booed the Union marches in Wellington, went out of business in the 1990's when their Union member customers pay disappeared.

               Private sector Unions were losing members for the same but apposite reason State sector Unions kept theirs. Private sector Unions power to do anything for workers was deliberately removed, in all but the largest workplaces. People then decided it wasn't worth joining a Union that could do nothing. The RWNJ' s who claim people don't want to join Union's are being dis_ingenious.
               Similar to removing buses from a route at the time it is most used, then claiming it is uneconomic and should be closed.
               Not to mention the dairy workers, hospitality and others being given the nudge wink that if they even mention a Union, forget about being employed.
               • gypsy …

                 21 May 2022 at 5:10 pm

                 "Unions became too competent at looking after their members. Which is why they had to go. "

                 Now if that was even remotely true, when it actually became a CHOICE to join, why did the majority leave?

                 "People then decided it wasn't worth joining a Union that could do nothing."

                 No, people decided almost immediately they were going to leave, well before any of your conspiracy theory could have taken effect.

                 Where do you get your talking points from?
                 • KJT …

                   21 May 2022 at 6:59 pm

                   Reality, Mate!

                   In fact in the State sector, and some large industries, where Unions still had some power and influence. The majority of members remained.
                   Other Unions membership dropped over a long period, not immediately. Giving the lie to your bullshit.
                   • gypsy …

                     21 May 2022 at 7:42 pm

                     Union membership dropped immediately. The decline is shown in the data.

                     “When the government passed the Employment Contracts Act 1991 (ECA) it ended nearly a century in which New Zealand’s labour law had strongly supported unions. Compulsory unionism and national wage agreements ended. Union membership dropped by about 50% in the first year after the act was passed. Many unions either collapsed or amalgamated.”
                     https://teara.govt.nz/en/womens-labour-organisations/page-6
                   • Incognito []

                     21 May 2022 at 8:48 pm

                     I have a new favourite year for you: 1937.

                     The number of registered unions peaked at 499 in 1937, after the first Labour government made union membership compulsory. The number then dropped to around 200. After 1991, when membership became voluntary under the Employment Contracts Act, it fell even further, to the lowest total in more than a century. When a new Labour government repealed the act, the number of unions rebounded to around 180.

                     https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/22263/registered-unions-1860-2007

                     Oh no, the incompetent and corrupt ones came back and yet membership stayed … steady. Bugger! Your narrative is blown to pieces, again.
             • Patricia Bremner …

               21 May 2022 at 7:27 pm

               Gypsy, Unions were damaged by The Contracts Act. They have strong Unions in Australia leading to better pay and conditions, as they did not join the spiral to the bottom we did. Some Unions were too dogmatic, but many Employers have been stung in Court for poor behaviour corrupt practice and failure to pay their employees properly. So neither group is covered in glory.

               Just for balance.
               • gypsy …

                 21 May 2022 at 7:47 pm

                 Thanks. Yes there are ratbag employers all right. The real damage done to unions by the Employment Contracts Act was removing compulsion. By the '80's many kiwi's were sick of them
                 • roblogic …

                   22 May 2022 at 2:41 am

                   I wonder why Amazon sweatshop workers have just celebrated their first Union and the company went to such efforts to bust their organisation. Must be because Jeff Bezos is such a great guy and paying workers a living wage is a sin against Capitalism.

                   This isn't the 1970s any more gypsy.
                   • gypsy …

                     22 May 2022 at 10:18 am

                     No, it isn't. In NZ people are free to join unions or not, and that should have made unions do what any business would have had to do – become relevant again. I look at this logically and say if a declining % of workers (now only 16%) choose to join a union, (and the vast majority of those are not private sector workers), then they're really struggling.
                 • KJT …

                   22 May 2022 at 6:47 am

                   The real damage; Was the removal of the larger industries and employers that had Unionised workforces. The 80’s and 90’s destruction. Shop assistants and others were never effectively Unionised. The employment contracts Act removal of most Unions ability to do much for their members, by the removal of rights, such as the rights to strike. Concerted efforts by employers to threaten and divide Union membership. And some decided they were getting the wages and conditions the Union members fought for, without paying Union dues. So they decided to bludge. No doubt to the later regret of many, as they saw their pay and conditions eroded.
                   I was there. I saw all this happening.

                   As I said. The same thing as changing a bus route so they can't run at times and to the stops people use. Then saying it "is a waste of time due to lack of patronage”.

                   In contrast to private sector Unions, in the State sector, where Unions in larger workplaces still retained power, the majority stayed in Unions.

                   "by the '80's many kiwi's were sick of them". Many of all three of your mates?

                   The decrease in wages and employees share of earnings since then, and indeed the current problems with safety, show that Unions are needed more than ever. ETU's success in Unionising and fighting against zero hour contracts and low wages, for fast food workers, is just one example.

                   If you are an employee, you have rights and working conditions won by Union militancy in the past. I'm sure you are not going to stick to your anti-Union "principles" and refuse them?
                   • gypsy …

                     22 May 2022 at 9:45 am

                     "by the '80's many kiwi's were sick of them". Many of all three of your mates?""

                     But in March 1981 about 50,000 people joined an anti-union march down Auckland’s Queen St. The ‘Kiwis Care’ march was organised by Tania Harris, a 22-year-old sales representative. Ticker tape flew from shop windows and a stereo shop blasted the national anthem. Some people openly wept.

                     Harris had tapped into public anger over a series of strikes that had stopped international flights, sailings of Cook Strait ferries, and beer deliveries. Many people believed unions wielded too much power and were wrecking the country. "

                     "If you are an employee, you have rights and working conditions won by Union militancy in the past. I'm sure you are not going to stick to your anti-Union "principles" and refuse them?"

                     Here's where you're confused. The rights and conditions secured by unions are decades old. I'll give up any benefits unions have achieved in, say, the past 30 years, if you give up any benefit the evil market economy you so dislike has delieverd to you.
                   • KJT …

                     22 May 2022 at 12:44 pm

                     Over 30 years since Unions had any power. Funny that.

                     You have just confirmed what I'm saying.

                     The need for Unions is greater than ever.

                     That people were taken in by the pervasive right wing media is not surprising. It is still fooling people like you, even long after the ill effects are obvious.

                     I bet you many of those, including Tania Harris, regretted that moment, of "Turkeys voting for Christmas" when the effects of the employment contracts act impoverished communities and put many if them out of work.

                     As for a recent success of Unions. I already mentioned ETU success with zero hours and fast food workers.
                   • Gypsy []

                     22 May 2022 at 3:11 pm

                     If the need for unions is greater than ever, more than a small minority of workers would join.

                     [Please check and correct your user name in the next comment, thanks]
                   • Incognito []

                     22 May 2022 at 3:21 pm

                     Mod note
                   • KJT …

                     22 May 2022 at 12:58 pm

                     The State sector Unions are just getting long overdue pay rises in health.

                     Due to Unions.

                     Who said anything about disliking the Market economy?
                     RWNJ’s love their strawman arguments.
                   • KJT …

                     22 May 2022 at 3:55 pm

                     "If the need for unions is greater than ever, more than a small minority of workers would join".

                     It should be obvious. If you thought about it instead of endlessly repeating the same BS.

                     1. The power of Unions to do much for workers in the isolated and fragmented workplaces, that is most of the private sector, was deliberately removed. Striking to support workers in other workplaces, in the same Union, is nowadays, illegal. As is striking at all, except in very limited circumstances.

                     Union successes have been restricted to large national employers, Government departments or nationwide franchises. Funnily enough the same workplaces that still have the majority of employees Unionised. And where Unions such as ETU are gaining new members.

                     1. Employers actively restricting the employment of anyone who may join a Union. Part of the enthusiusism for compliant and ignorant immigrant labour. Many youngsters are terrified of challenging their employers in any way. Because they know that they will be dismissed and blacklisted for even mentioning a Union.
                     2. Access to Union won conditions without paying dues.
                     3. The rise of pretend contractor arrangements over a large number of workers, like the ones in the film industry, forestry, couriers and telecoms. Contractors are legally barred from "price fixing type behaviours". Conveniently barred from clubbing together to set conditions.
                     4. Propaganda, like yours, mis informing about what Unions do.

                     As is obvious, although the need for effective Unions is greater than ever, the laws in place are designed to make them as ineffective as possible, and discourage membership.

                     Part of a market economy is the right to withdraw your labour, or products, if the price you are getting is too low. The right to withdraw your products still exists. The right to withdraw labour (strike) is, in most circumstances since the ECA was enacted, illegal!
                   • gypsy …

                     22 May 2022 at 5:40 pm

                     "It shou"ld be obvious."

                     Ok, essentially what you're arguing is that the ECA disempowered unions. I agree, as far as the introduction of freedom of association, but are you seriously arguing that right should be taken from employees?

                     Your arguments around the disempowerment of unions in other ways are without citation, and in at least one case highly questionable. You claim "The right to withdraw labour (strike) is, in most circumstances since the ECA was enacted, illegal!" Not according to Employment NZ:

                     "Strikes and lockouts are legitimate actions used by parties to advance their bargaining aims."

                     "To be a strike the action must be part of a combination, agreement, common understanding, or joint action made or done by the employees. Employees can do this action to try to make their employer give in to their demands. Employers can’t discriminate against employees for taking part in a lawful strike."

                     The article then goes on to describe "When employees can legally strike or be locked out". What the ECA (and it's subsequent amendments) seems to have done is to codify the requirements for striking, which is a good thing, surely. And something that remains in place through the past 30+ years, approximately half of which have been under Labour Governments.
                   • KJT …

                     22 May 2022 at 7:34 pm

                     Thanks for confirming what I said. The right to strike now only exists in limited circumstances. You gave the references yourself.

                     So limited, that it is impossible to use it to support workers in the same industry but other workplaces. Effectively the right to strike for better conditions, only exists in large workplaces. And the right for employees to Unionise, strike and support each other over a whole industry, preventing employers racing for the bottom is gone.
                     Destroying the ability of all but large single employer Unions to act for their members. Which was the intention of the ECA all along.

                     Labour Governments are not guiltless. The rot continued with the destructive 1984 Government that destroyed entire industries. After Muldoon destroyed boat and caravan building, amoungst others, so he could afford social welfare for sheep.
                   • gypsy …

                     23 May 2022 at 10:08 pm

                     "The right to strike now only exists in limited circumstances."

                     I didn't confirm what you said. You didn't say 'limited circumstances'. You said 'very limited circumstances'. The circumstances under which workers can strike are not 'very limited', they are limited, and for very good reason. The reason 50,000 people marched down Queen Street in 1981 was becasue of "public anger over a series of strikes that had stopped international flights, sailings of Cook Strait ferries, and beer deliveries. Many people believed unions wielded too much power and were wrecking the country."

                     What good the unions had achieved in decades past was well and truly unravelled during those years.
                   • KJT …

                     24 May 2022 at 6:41 am

                     Still carrying on with your bolloocks I see. How many in Unions then, compared with that ill advised and propaganda driven March. Driven by bull, just like the one by the Weta workshops, fools.

                     I've seen the effects of very limited rights to strike, from both sides of the table I may add.

                     And seen employers frequently, unilatarily and in bad faith, change conditions many times, knowing full well that employees can do buggerrall about it until the contract expires.
                     And don't bother telling me employees can sue for breach of contract.. Few employees or Unions have bottomless pockets.

                     It would be a very brave Union leader today, who would suggest striking outside the very limited occasions a strike is legal.
                     Even for safety reasons. Having to pay to justify the strike in court while being personally sued for an “illegal strike” has totally disempowered Unions on safety. Which is my point.

                     The abuse of power by employers since the ECA, makes the Cooks and Stewards look like pussies.

                     The right to strike is a human right, which like the right to protest shouldn't be removed by law.
                   • gypsy …

                     24 May 2022 at 6:14 pm

                     "How many in Unions then, compared with that ill advised and propaganda driven March. "

                     The march was driven by sheer frustration and anger at the exploitative nature of union activity. People had come to see unions as petty and vindictive, and will skilled at abusing the power they held only because people were compelled to join them.

                     "The right to strike is a human right, which like the right to protest shouldn't be removed by law."

                     Freedom of association is a human right, that shouldn't be removed by law. Since that freedom was restored, the vast majority of workers have chosen to not join a union. Exercising that right has done more to reduce the power of striking than any reasonable limits imposed by the government.
                   • KJT …

                     24 May 2022 at 7:59 pm

                     Wondered when the other RW bullshit artist would pop up.
   • Sacha 2.2

     21 May 2022 at 2:49 pm

     Maritime NZ is the prosecuting agency in this case but yes it might help do what the 2015 lawchange was intended to – show inescapable accountability from the top.

     There are these miraculous things called links, Ad. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300593989/former-auckland-port-boss-denies-charges-in-relation-to-death-of-worker-crushed-by-container
3. Ad 3

   21 May 2022 at 7:43 am

   Hang in there Albanese. Surely it's time.
4. Jenny how to get there 4

   21 May 2022 at 8:27 am

   Bake for Ukraine

   If you are in South Auckland today make sure to visit the fundraising cake sale for Ukraine

   Onehunga Market 10.am to 2.pm

   https://www.facebook.com/photo/?
5. DB Brown 5

   21 May 2022 at 8:52 am

   In Herne Bay, Seddon Fields, there's a group of toy dog owners who turn up early Saturdays and let their dogs shit and piss all over the sports fields. They've done it for so long they're all known to each other.

   Within minutes of them leaving the dogs toilet aka sports fields everyone else begins to turn up as their kids play various contact sports there.

   As there are clearly 'No Dogs on the Sports Fields' signs on the actual sports fields, one must conclude these are the people for whom the rules do not apply. If some bottom feeders kids get their face smeared in the residue of Pookies shit – such is life.

   I posit these folk are also the people who loudly and proudly vote for law and order, and that arresting them would go a long way toward restoring everybody's faith in our fair system.
   • gypsy 5.1

     21 May 2022 at 9:49 am

     I'm involved with coaching at that football club (Western Springs) and I agree with you it sounds disgusting. The problem will be worse at the moment too because our artificial 'turf' fields are being replaced, and so all the games on being played on the grass fields.

     Can you jut clarify for me, are you referring to Seddon Fields (which is in Western Springs) or our other ground Cox Bay (in Westmere)? I'll talk to the powers that be and see if something can be done.
     • DB Brown 5.1.1

       21 May 2022 at 10:58 am

       Good call, it is in fact Coxs Bay. I should know the difference.
       • gypsy 5.1.1.1

         21 May 2022 at 11:23 am

         All good. I’ll talk to the club about it, but it’s also a Council issue. At my favourite dog walking locale (Taipari Strand) if you don’t pick up after your dog you get ‘reminded’ by one of the regulars!
         • DB Brown 5.1.1.1.1

           21 May 2022 at 12:58 pm

           They'll pick up after themselves, but the area they're using is clearly earmarked for sports. And if doggie wees or has wee runs… aww pookies!

           Generalising here but: Actual walkers of dogs have dogs that have normally 'worked it out' before their owners hit the park. The ones turning up in cars to sling balls across the sports grounds with a plastic arm extension have the dogs that race out to relieve themselves, through no fault of the dog.

           Again, the ‘No dogs on sports fields’ signage is clear.
           • gypsy 5.1.1.1.1.1

             21 May 2022 at 1:33 pm

             It is, very clear. And there's ample walking space for dogs off the fields.
   • Visubversa 5.2

     21 May 2022 at 10:15 am

     There are a lot of those about. We walk around Western Springs Park about 4 times a week and we regularly see people with dogs that are not on a leash. If you point out that it is not an off leash area you get abused or told that "I walk this dog here every day and we have no problems" as their little darling chases a nesting Pukeko into the lake.
   • Molly 5.3

     21 May 2022 at 11:26 am

     It's a basic courtesy and public hygiene to pick up after your dog defecates anywhere outside your home.

     Be useful to know if that is part of any council's responsible dog owner licence guidelines.
     • KJT 5.3.1

       21 May 2022 at 11:55 am

       Whangarei. " Owners are legally responsible for cleaning up after their dogs on any property that’s not their own. This means carrying a plastic bag whenever you’re in public with your dog. Dog waste bags are available at Council offices or the Pound in Kioreroa Road. Failure to clean up after your dog could result in a $300 fine".
       • Molly 5.3.1.1

         21 May 2022 at 12:53 pm

         Thanks, that's pretty straightforward.

         I can find a reference to it on Auckland Council's by searching your quote:

         Under the Dog Management Bylaw 2019, you must immediately remove your dog's faeces from a public place and dispose of it adequately.

         If you do not pick up after your dog, you may get a $300 fine.

         Penalty included under Problems with dogs and not mentioned under Dog owners' obligations. Feel it'd be useful to have there as well. Very few people consider their dog a problem.
6. Molly 6

   21 May 2022 at 12:11 pm

   May be a new daily game for the geo politicos here:

   https://oec.world/en/tradle/
7. pat 7

   21 May 2022 at 12:52 pm

   The role of Party politics has been questioned (https://thestandard.org.nz/the-time-that-roger-douglas-was-right/)

   The answer appears in the sidebar

   "The public’s attitude to death, taxes and Climate Change is remarkably consistent. Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die, pay more, or give up their SUV.

   The trick of successful democratic government in times of global warming, pestilence, war – and rampant inflation – is to convey the impression of doing something while actually doing very little at all. The job of the politician, when you boil it right down, is to keep the lights on and the ATMs working. If not forever, then until well past the next election."

   https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2022/05/blah-blah-blah-is-that-all-there-is.html
   • Incognito 7.1

     21 May 2022 at 5:51 pm

     Thank you, but not quite seeing it.

     Politicians don’t make promises and they don’t promise anything.

     At best, they’re Party spokespeople or figureheads speaking on behalf (or out of tune) of the Party from the Party Manifest or Policy, but never ever in a personal capacity from their own list. They are not representatives of the people or voters but carefully controlled speaking tubes for their Parties. Which is why so many 'promises' are empty & hollow and get so easily broken (and forgotten, except as troll fodder and as gotcha bait).
     • pat 7.1.1

       21 May 2022 at 6:00 pm

       We never see that which we dont desire to see.

       Political parties are means to an end….those that succeed in such an environment are those who succeed in such an environment.
       • Incognito 7.1.1.1

         21 May 2022 at 6:07 pm

         I had no desire to read BR, but I did. I couldn’t see any mention of political parties

         There sure is high demand today for mindreading by online osmosis and talking in riddles – clarity is not just a state of mind but also a skill and virtue.
         • pat 7.1.1.1.1

           21 May 2022 at 6:10 pm

           it must be contagious…you appear to be infected.
           • Incognito 7.1.1.1.1.1

             21 May 2022 at 6:28 pm

             Yup, my test result was off the scale and I’ve given up on elimination and instead try contain the risk of transmission to unwitting hapless souls.
             • pat …

               21 May 2022 at 6:55 pm

               too late…its an epidemic
               • Incognito …

                 21 May 2022 at 7:25 pm

                 I’m learning to live with it, but I don’t want to …
                 • pat …

                   21 May 2022 at 7:56 pm

                   lifes like that
                   • Incognito …

                     21 May 2022 at 8:15 pm

                     Sometimes, I don’t like life as we know it.
                   • pat …

                     21 May 2022 at 8:27 pm

                     snap
8. Poission 8

   21 May 2022 at 1:53 pm

   Whilst globally we have a rerun of the 70's,it does not mean we should have 1984 to look forward to.

   Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla explains Pfizer's new tech to Davos crowd: "ingestible pills" – a pill with a tiny chip that send a wireless signal to relevant authorities when the pharmaceutical has been digested. "Imagine the compliance," he says pic.twitter.com/uYapKJGDJx

   — Jeremy Loffredo (@loffredojeremy) May 20, 2022
   • pat 8.1

     21 May 2022 at 4:18 pm

     It's a brave new world.
9. Blazer 9

   21 May 2022 at 4:56 pm

   I found it obvious.

   Comprehension is a volatile..beast.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • SPC 9.1

     21 May 2022 at 5:20 pm

     In Oz rampant poverty, or fear of other voters (sometimes causation is difficult to identify) is causing millions to vote early, or by mail, rather than admit they cannot afford a sausage.

     Democracy sausage under threat

     https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/democracy-sausage-under-threat-as-millions-vote-early-20220516-p5almq.html
   • Blazer 9.2

     21 May 2022 at 6:02 pm

     'everything in moderation…even..moderation'!

     Please inform the almighty…this IS open ..mike!
10. SPC 10

    21 May 2022 at 5:15 pm

    Once upon a time, there were brothers called Arvirigas (of the green spear) and Caratacus (of the orange spear).

    Today they are called Sinn Fein and the Democratic Unionist Party.

    In the Easter Agreement back in 1998 it was decided that the number 1 and number 2 parties would determine a government in Ulster – if not there would be direct rule from London. Normally DUP have been No 1 and someone more moderate than Sinn Fein has been No 2. Now Sinn Fein is No 1 and DUP is No 2.

    Sinn Fein are Irish nationalists and want things like a referendum – which is why their deputy has gone to Edinburgh to talk to the SN leader in Scotland.

    And they highlighted the "close bonds" between Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61528442

    The DUP would rather have direct rule from London than have such a referendum (and not wanting to legitimise Sinn Fein with a role in Ulster administration is just a bonus.

    However both the EU and the USA have a few concerns about what is going on.

    Irish PM says DUP cannot be allowed to block NI Assembly

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-61515205

    UK and EU's row risks Western unity, top US official warns

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-61521540
11. SPC 11

    21 May 2022 at 9:14 pm

    Some American Bishops have made their intentions clear – those who publicly support abortion rights will be denied communion.

    The Rev. Salvatore J. Cordileone, the Catholic archbishop of San Francisco, said Friday that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) will be denied the sacrament of Holy Communion because of her vocal support for abortion rights.

    Cordileone last year called for Communion to be withheld from public figures who support abortion rights but did not mention Pelosi by name at the time.

    “After numerous attempts to speak with her to help her understand the grave evil she is perpetrating, the scandal she is causing, and the danger to her own soul she is risking, I have determined that the point has come in which I must make a public declaration that she is not to be admitted to Holy Communion unless and until she publicly repudiate her support for abortion ‘rights’ and confess and receive absolution for her cooperation in this evil in the sacrament of Penance,” Cordileone said Friday in a letter to members of his archdiocese.

    Catholic archbishops have vast power within their diocese, and a reversal of Cordileone’s decision would require the intervention of the Vatican, which is unlikely. The order to deny Communion to Pelosi applies only to Catholic churches within the San Francisco archdiocese under Cordileone’s purview, including the speaker’s home church.

    Last September, Pope Francis said the decision about granting Communion to politicians who support abortion rights should be made from a pastoral point of view, not a political one. He told reporters: “I have never refused the Eucharist to anyone,” while adding that he has never knowingly encountered during Communion a politician who backs abortion rights.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/20/pelosi-abortion-archbishop-communion/
12. SPC 12

    21 May 2022 at 9:42 pm

    The SCOTUS leak has led states to reveal their post Roe v Wade plans.

    Oklahoma

    From fertilisation – thus allows the so called post sex MAP/contraception that prevents fertilisation.

    Oklahoma lawmakers on Thursday passed a bill that would ban abortions from the moment of “fertilization,” effectively prohibiting almost all abortions in the state.

    Under the bill, those who could be sued include anyone who “performs or induces” an abortion; anyone who “knowingly engages in conduct that aids or abets the performance or inducement of an abortion,” including paying for one; and anyone who even “intends to engage” in either of the two actions above.

    The pregnant woman is not the legal target of the law. Those who help facilitate one for her, as well as those performing the action are liable.

    The bill states a lawsuit cannot be brought against a woman who had or seeks to have an abortion.

    The bill defines “fertilization” as the moment a sperm meets the egg. It explicitly allows for the use of the Plan B pill, a widely used form of emergency contraception, but would prohibit medical abortions using pills.

    Medical intervention on health grounds is allowed

    The bill exempts from its definition of abortion any procedure to “save the life or preserve the health of the unborn child,” to “remove a dead unborn child caused by spontaneous abortion” or to remove an ectopic pregnancy, in which the fetus grows outside the uterus.

    The bill makes exceptions for abortion if it is “necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman in a medical emergency”

    It allows abortion in the case of pregnancy resulting from reported sexual crime

    or if the pregnancy is the result of rape, sexual assault or incest that has been reported to law enforcement.

    It does not determine, or otherwise, a position on in vitro

    “Looking at the language, it’s hard to see how it wouldn’t affect in vitro fertilization because it talks about as soon as the ovum and the sperm meet, and the egg is fertilized, that means that’s a person,” Rep. Emily Virgin (D) said, according to KOKH News. “That’s what happens with in vitro fertilization, you create embryos.”

    The bill's sponsor said IVF was not included in the bill, as it “would be tough” to prove that an abortion had occurred in that situation.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/19/oklahoma-abortion-ban-fertilization/
13. joe90 13

    22 May 2022 at 6:04 pm

    Poots' global Holodomor.

    Mountains of grain left to rot as Vladimir Putin ‘blackmails the world’

    The Kremlin's blockade of Ukrainian ports is crippling the world's food production as shipping containers sit loaded with immovable crops, reports @colinfreeman99

    Thread 🧵⬇️https://t.co/MQva4LGQKd pic.twitter.com/EUUuhTce4x

    — Telegraph World News (@TelegraphWorld) May 20, 2022

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