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Open mike 21/10/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 21st, 2022 - 82 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

82 comments on “Open mike 21/10/2022 ”

  1. observer 1

    The lettuce won.

  2. Joe90 2

    Bye

    Edit:

    Oh dear…

  3. Ad 3

    Arise Lord Boris and save them.

  4. weka 4

  5. weka 5

    Good explanatory thread showing why class analysis matters, and that talking about differences in privilege at the class level is not the same as talking about individuals (something some of the replies fail to grasp).

    • Weka. I don't see this as talking about 'class' (as in socio-economic class) at all, it's talking about ethnicity and (possibly) culture.

      Am I misunderstanding your usage of 'class analysis' here?

      • weka 5.1.1

        yes, you are. I'm referring to class as the collective of people that have shared attributes that mean certain things as a group.

        There's the analysis that there are three classes that are exploited by capitalism (especially by labour) for the purposes of continuing capitalism: socioeconomic, biological sex, and race/ethnicity.

        In this instance, Godfrey is referring to Pākehā, more specifically the people whose ancestors came from Europe (Caucasians), and Māori. That's the class of ethnicity. He also talks about socioeconomic impacts on Māori, but as a group, demographically.

        If you don't have a class analysis, then this statement doesn't make sense,

        But Pākehā people generally are the beneficiaries of those actions today

        and leads to people making a counter argument of "I'm Pākehā and I'm poor, so were my parents and grandparents, we don't have that benefit". And that blinds the conversation to how working class Pākehā have benefited despite being working class. It also tends to lead people to thinking in either/or, whereas obviously working class people don't have the benefits of middle or professional classes.

      • swordfish 5.1.2

    • Adrian Thornton 5.2

      "This isn’t because Pākehā people are racist selfishly guarding their inherited advantages"…not sure I agree with that…why does he think half or more voters in this country vote National/Act?..has he ever worked on a large construction site?..I can tell you from first hand experience that give yourself a few days to get embedded on most sites around the country and you will slowly start to hear some pretty crazy racist shit start casually coming out of peoples mouths…and you can be sure many offices around the country are the same…racism is still deeply embedded in the NZ psych, of that I am sure, and you might be surprised were you still find it…I know I still get taken by surprise by it pretty regularly.

      • weka 5.2.1

        read his thread again. He's not saying that there are no racist people in NZ, nor that racism by individuals isn't still a problem.

        Taking soundbites out of context is usually a bad idea.

        • Adrian Thornton 5.2.1.1

          I didn't take it out context…it's what he said at the start of a line of thread to contextualize his own argument/point.

          • weka 5.2.1.1.1

            must be a different reason for you not understanding what he is saying then.

            • Adrian Thornton 5.2.1.1.1.1

              I understand and agree with most of what he is saying, I just don't agree with that part.

              • weka

                go ahead then, make your argument for why he is wrong when he says that Māori are demographically disadvantaged compared to Pākehā across a number of areas, and it's not because contemporary Pākehā are racist and selfishly guarding their inherited advantages, but rather because historical forces particularly the settler state are more powerful than individuals.

                You’ve already said that there are Pākehā that are racist, but that doesn’t explain how MG is wrong (he hasn’t said that there are no racist Pākehā).

                • Adrian Thornton

                  We must be talking at crossed purposes because I am saying that (many) “Pākehā are racist and selfishly guarding their inherited advantages” but I also strongly agree that “historical forces particularly the settler state are more powerful than individuals”(In most, but not all circumstances)…but holding one of those positions does not negate the other as far as I can see…both those things are existing side by side as we speak IMO.

                  • weka

                    Sure. So please make the argument that supports the assertion that most Pākehā are racist and selfishly guarding their inherited advantages.

                    That there are racist Pākehā doesn't mean that most Pākehā are racist and selfishly guarding their inherited advantages in the context of his thread. You may be right, I just haven’t seen the argument yet.

                    You'd also need to provide some evidence that half of NZ votes National because they're racist and selfishly guarding their inherited advantages. As opposed to being right wing, or believing in right wing politics (which again doesn't mean that racism isn't also an issue). Let's not forget that Doug Graham (Nat Minister for Treaty Settlements) did much to advance the modern treaty process in the 90s.

                    • Adrian Thornton

                      It is a holiday here in the Bay so I am going out to ride some hills and valley roads now, will answer when I get back…as long as I haven’t stupidly ridden myself into the ground which I have a bad habit of doing to myself for unknown reasons.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 5.3

      differences in privilege at the class level

      yes Wealth / ethnicity / privilege are inextricably linked – goodbye egalitarian NZ sad

      What Happened to Egalitarian New Zealand? [Easton, 25 June 2019]
      New Zealand was once a more egalitarian society than it is today. It has been overwhelmed by economic, social and technological changes. A crucial outcome is that the class structure has become less fluid and the increasing rigidities have disconnected the powerful from the rest of society.

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/books/19-03-2022/danyl-mclauchlan-on-too-much-money-a-book-about-what-divides-us

  6. Sanctuary 6

    We can all revel in the delicious fall of a Tory extremist, but it worth remembering the fall of Truss is a sombre illustration that centrists are more hostile to democracy than either the populist left or right. It probably shouldn't surprise us – our MSM is full of cynical and savvy members of the centrist pundocracy who pronounce themselves exhausted by the demands of vigorous democracy, contemptuous of voters, contemptuous of the politically engaged, and longing for a "safe pair of hands" to calm the markets, sooth the bankers and reassure the property owning haute bourgeoisie.

    Truss fell for the same reason Jeremy Corbyn was done in – she was elected by her party members, thus becoming an irritant that is nowadays unacceptable to the incestuous Oxbridge ruling class in Britains increasingly corrupt and decayed managed democracy. Wet Tories joined with centrists and liberals in forming a claque applauding a soft coup in the name of "the markets".

    So we on the left should be a bit muted in our cheering on of the fall of Truss. Most of the media hallelujahs are to the effect that "orthodoxy" has been restored. "The markets" have seen off "ideologues". But the situation in the UK, and in the wider failing neoliberal project everywhere, is unstable as neoliberal orthodoxy doesn't command the widespread support it used to – as evidenced by the Corbyn insurrection and the eruption of Truss.

    Centrists will likely find their hopes for a restoration of orthodoxy dashed, and their insistence that the masses withdraw from political activity and find relief in the administrative rule of technocrats is becoming increasingly untenable.

    • Ad 6.1

      I sure ain't cheering. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, one of the leading remaining democracies, one of the most sustainable, and still a critical global power.

      Britain is being seriously destabilised when we need every strong coherent state on the planet working together, not fucking things up.

      • Robert Guyton 6.1.1

        First, the disintegration, then the coalescing.

      • satty 6.1.2

        UK is not the 5th largest economy anymore (BREXIT-related?):

        1. US
        2. China
        3. Japan
        4. Germany
        5. India
        6. UK

        Not that it changes your argument.

        • Sanctuary 6.1.2.1

          I've been thinking about this. For all the moaning here in NZ we've had more or less continuous growth since the GFC. For the UK (and Europe in general) however the GFC was an inflexion point – a crisis after which things did not return to normal.

          The UK has essentially had a stagnant/declining economy for going on fifteen years. How much have the economies of Austrlai and NZ grown in the time?

    • Adrian Thornton 6.2

      @Sanctuary, Exactly right +1

    • Bearded Git 6.3

      Corbyn lasted 5 years not 6 weeks and, but for that flash-in-the-pan Davidson woman in Scotland, would have won a general election and been PM.

  7. Peter 7

    The scoffing and derision is going on and will go on about government in the UK.

    Somewhat of a contrast though isn't it. The extraordinary constitutional crisis, if that's what it could be called, compared to the US situation one in the recent past. (And in many ways continuing.)

    Albeit much of it happened behind closed doors, there was a full frontal attack to usurp power in the US. Clearly lawmakers at many levels were involved or supported it, support it.

    How many threads and how fine were they which saw the unthinkable not happen?

    For all of her inaptness and the dire straits which saw Truss bite the bullet, the last guy in America, how did he go in the when the writing was on the wall?

  8. joe90 8

    Pricks intend using their Ukrainian hostages as human shields.

    Oct 19 (Reuters) – Russian-installed authorities in the occupied Ukrainian region of Kherson said on Wednesday that they plan to evacuate around 50,000-60,000 people over the next six days amid escalating pressure from a Ukrainian counteroffensive.

    Russian-installed governor Vladimir Saldo said authorities were moving civilians to the left (east) bank of the Dnipro River in order to "keep people safe" and allow the military to "act resolutely".

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-evacuate-10000-day-ukraines-kherson-region-2022-10-19/

  9. Adrian Thornton 9

    Turns out there are still one or two Extreme Right elements still operating within the Ukraine military…..which is strange because according to various commentators on this forum the Far Right problem widely acknowledged and reported on before this conflict by the BBC, Aljazeera, Vice, New Statesman, Time and many others as being deeply embedded within the Ukraine politics and their military has apparently been all taken care of…though we are still waiting for neutral links from these Standard members to prove those bold assertions…

    Ukrainian paratroopers singing “Our father is Bandera, our mother is Ukraine”

    Ukrainian military chief photographed with far-right paraphernalia

    Tank with German, Ukrainian and Azov insignia spotted in Ukraine

    Any way I will take it from them that no one should have any concerns nor even mention the possibility of the downstream blowback from the thousands of fully armed, battle hardened Far Right fighters who will be left standing at the end of this pointless war….you know how like arming Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 1980s ended in peace and tranquillity for the rest of the world…I mean seriously, what could go wrong I wonder?

    • Sanctuary 9.1

      You guillable fool. Just by reading your post I know those three links are widely discredited as faked Russian propaganda.

      The first are Russians.

      The second and third are obvious deep fake image manipulation.

      I am at loss why people seem so keen to be useful idiots for Russian disinformation. Remember the purpose of Russian propaganda is create doubt, sow uncertainty and demoralise through defelection, whatabboutism and false equivalence.

      • Adrian Thornton 9.1.1

        Yep it's all fake…you just keep on telling yourself that….oh that's right you don't need too..all those MSM news sites (linked to above) that only a short while ago told you that there was a serious Right Wing problem in the Ukraine, are now telling you there isn't…isn't that strange and bizarre? ….holy shit what a chump you are.

        Show us all just one serious neutral link that proves Zelenskyy has dealt with the proven (by your Liberal MSM sources I might add) Far Right problem in Ukraine or more specifically the military….if you or others cannot supply us with that one neutral link…then you all have no argument….just empty rhetoric.

      • mauī 9.1.2

        Is there such a thing as useful idiots of Ukrainian propaganda? Considering all mainstream coverage we get is pro-Ukrainian, and any independent journalism going against this narrative is sidelined. Shouldnt that make it obvious where the propaganda is coming from?

      • Adrian Thornton 9.1.3

        Re; "Show us all just one serious neutral link that proves Zelenskyy has dealt with the proven Far Right problem in Ukraine or more specifically the military"

        …no I didn't think so….This is the third thread that I have asked for any link to verify that claim..you and the rest have failed to deliver because there is no link or links, and never was…just more pro war Western propaganda that you want to believe..so you do…without question.

        It is pretty damn obvious that you (and many others) have been so conditioned over time, by the relentless propaganda around Russia (and China too for that matter) spewed out over the past half decade that now you either cannot or will not, and actually often seem to just outright refuse to even try and analyze any facet of the Ukraine war with any sort of critical judgment whatsoever….kind of crazy to watch people in so deep they don't know which way is up or down anymore.

    • woodart 9.2

      there are extreme right elements in every military, its there natural home, as is the police.

      • Adrian Thornton 9.2.1

        Yeah that's true, but not too many of them get to form their very own offical battalions with their very own Waffen SS inspired unit banners and insignia to wear and to fight under…

  10. Sanctuary 10

    "Russian-installed governor Vladimir Saldo said authorities were moving civilians to the left (east) bank of the Dnipro River in order to "keep people safe" and allow the military to "act resolutely".

    This statement made my blood run cold. The right bank of the Dnipr river is characterised by high bluffs that over look the left bak, which is flat. It seems to me the the Russian are moving people to the left bak of the river with the clear threat that if the Ukrainains keep attacking and seize Nova Kakhova they'll blow up the massive Kakhovka dam and release a torrent from the Reservoir and drown thousdands of civilians deliberately placed there.

    • weston 10.1

      your comment makes no sense whateva sanc especially since Ukraine has been shelling and otherwise attacking that dam for weeks !! Why are they doing that ?? trying to beat the russkies to it ???

      Hears some up to date info you might like to look at

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqV1ts5TIPE

      /

      /

      • Stuart Munro 10.1.1

        It makes sense because Russia has form of destroying dams in pursuit of military advantage – they struck the Oskil reservoir dam to isolate one of the Ukrainian bridgeheads across the Seversky Dinets River. Ukrainian helicopters ferried supplies to the isolated troops however, so the invaders were not able to overrun them.

        An obvious use of the same tactic on the Dnipro River is to cover their retreat as they abandon Kherson. The last thing a retreating army needs is an enemy hot on their heels, picking off the stragglers.

        Superpower policy is often dominated by spite. Russian destruction of this dam would cause lasting damage to Ukraine, and, having been trounced, Putin is feeling very spiteful. Unlike tactical nukes, dam busting has no specific international consequences.

        • weston 10.1.1.1

          Cant really see it stuart and i think " trounced " is a ridiculous word to use under the circumstances after all if Ukraine broke through russian lines in the north it was only because that was where the line was thinnest and ukraine by most accounts paid a very heavy price for gains made .Since then the lines have hardly moved save for the regions where russia is making gains .

          Time will tell i guess and anyway its foolish to make grand statements about outcomes within the ebb an flow of war dont you think ?

          Seems evident to me that Russia plays the long game but really what the fuck do i know? or for that matter any of us ? we are not there and are at the mercy of those who ply us with information .Trust nothing and apply the pinch of salt !!

          • Stuart Munro 10.1.1.1.1

            Cant really see it stuart

            The attack on Oskil is referenced by both sides.

            i think " trounced " is a ridiculous word

            Oh – do you prefer decimated or routed?

            save for the regions where russia is making gains

            And where, pray tell us, do you imagine that is? It is clearly nowhere in Ukraine.

            Seems evident to me that Russia plays the long game

            A four-day operation that goes over two hundred days could certainly be considered long – but there is little evidence of strategy.

            "I have heard of military operations that were clumsy but swift, but I have never seen one that was skillful and lasted a long time." ~ Sun Tzu
            "Those who use the military skillfully do not raise troops twice."

            but really what the fuck do i know?

            Out of the mouths of babes.

            • weston 10.1.1.1.1.1

              "And where pray tell us do you imagine that is ? clearly nowhere in Ukraine "

              for you stuart here is the latest military summery

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqV1ts5TIPE

              and another for good measure

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz0M4dXmAtw

              • Stuart Munro

                Hmm… I generally avoid pure propaganda sites like that Weston – you know, the kind that make unsupported allegations that Ukraine is planning to destroy the Dnipro dam. It is Ukraine's dam, and once the invasion is merely an horrific memory, they intend to use it to produce electricity once more.

                The allegation is merely intended to provide a bit of deniability – credulous people like yourself repeating the lie after Russia destroys the dam, to suppress the outrage at targeting civilian infrastructure, and using an, albeit unconventional, weapon of mass destruction.

                You are some considerable way from supporting your assertion, much less offering good measure.

    • joe90 10.2

      • weston 10.2.1

        Wanna lay out for us joe a scenario where Russia could possibly profit from blowing this dam ?

        Its pretty apparent how it would benefit Ukraine as a precurser to an offensive

        What do you think ?

  11. The hypocrisy of this Labour government : 36 billion of land sold to foreign buyers in last 12 months nz herald 21 oct 22

    • weka 11.1

      please provide a link (even if it is paywalled).

      • Doug Stuart 11.1.1

        Front page and business section page A26 A27 under land hungry article. NZ Herald 21 oct 22

        • observer 11.1.1.2

          I think we need better info than responding to a clickbait headline.

          "The answer will surprise you … !!". It usually doesn't.

          • Incognito 11.1.1.2.1

            I cannot read the clickbait behind the paywall. In the previous financial year 2020-2021 the total net hectares of land sales approved by OIO was 16,341. Even doubling that would not go anywhere near the area of Arthur’s Pass National Park.

            It [applications approved] does not necessarily indicate that a sale has taken place or will take place.

            https://www.linz.govt.nz/resources/briefing/overseas-investment-office-decision-statistics-202021

            How much does NZH pay those numpties to spread disinformation?

            • X Socialist 11.1.1.2.1.1

              From behind the paywall:

              ''Foreigners more than doubled their appetite for New Zealand land in the latest year, buying an area equivalent to a South Island national park.

              The 111,674 hectares or 1116 square kilometres of land that overseas entities bought between September 2021 and August this year is about the same size as Arthur's Pass National Park, the rugged, 1185sq km mountainous area straddling the Southern Alps.

              Toitū Te Whenua Land Information New Zealand provided details of the transactions approved by the Overseas Investment Office in the year to August.

              In the previous year to August 2021, foreigners bought 46,000ha. The year before that, to August 2020, 70,148ha of land was bought. Now the numbers are up to 111,674ha.

              The volume of overseas investment approvals showed a post-Covid bounceback: 122 applications were approved in the August 2020 year, remaining almost static at 124 for the August 2021 year, but rising to 152 applications approved in the latest year to August.''

              • Incognito

                As I suspected, clearly a highly misleading piece from the NZH.

                • alwyn

                  What is misleading about it?

                  Are you saying the numbers are false. If so what are the real ones.

                  If it is something else that makes you think it is misleading what is that "something else".

    • Belladonna 11.2

      A heck of a lot of it is foreigners selling to foreigners (i.e. the land was already in foreign ownership)

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/foreigners-double-appetite-for-nz-land-buy-area-same-size-as-arthurs-pass-national-park/UK7PZCA5XTE274JFPBAUPTXQEY/?c_id=3&objectid=12559260&ref=rss

      The ones which were Kiwi companies selling to foreign interests, seem to be mostly around forestry. Whether that's a good or a bad thing…..

      Just checked, and it is Herald premium.

      The first Kiwi owned land sale was no. 3 in size:
      “3. 3400ha: Kiwis sell forestry interests to Germans
      Ponga Silva (49 per cent German, 18 per cent British) won consent to buy Mangatarata Forest, Mangatarata Station, Mata Forest, Onetohunga Forest and Te Rawhiti Forest – around Tauwhareparae in the Gisborne district – from Kiwi interests.
      “The applicant is acquiring a freehold interest in approximately 3466ha of land comprising four adjoining forests, including several forestry rights registered over the freehold land,” said the Overseas investment Office. Approval was granted last October, with the sale price suppressed.”

  12. I've got a lot of time for Dave Letele – and think he does a whole lot of practical good in the world.

    So, like a lot of Aucklanders, I was pretty horrified to see that his foodbank had been robbed, in what was clearly a theft-for-sale, rather than a theft-because-someone-was-hungry.

    So it is heart-warming to see two things come out of it:

    • The generosity of the community in making donations to put them in a better place than they were before the break in;
    • Dave's attitude towards restorative justice for the offenders:

    "I've asked the police that I would like the girl to do community service with us. I think there will be more chance of her rehabilitating if she is with us, rather than going to prison," Letele said.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/buttabean-foodbank-burglary-good-samaritans-to-the-rescue-with-donations/42AVZ47JZVAZFTK7REAPF7U5PY/?c_id=1&objectid=12560187&ref=rss

    Yes. In an ideal world, there would be no need for foodbanks. But we're not in an ideal world.

    And, yes, I put my money where my mouth is – and made an extra donation (Buttabean is already one of the charities I donate to).

  13. Ad 13

    What will happen to the New Zealand economy if as seems likely China's economy simply stops growing or is 1-3% GDP growth, for as far as the eye can see?

    China's Faltering Economy Causes Political Shocks (foreignpolicy.com)

    Where China goes, Australia and New Zealand wealth goes.

    Presumably our Treasury and NZSuper are doing their own country impact analysis. They'd better.

  14. Muttonbird 14

    If you can believe it, some Tories are already planning to overthrow the winner of this contest regardless of who it is.

  15. Sabine 15

    i am one of those that say that the protests for trains and no oil and such need to happen on the parliaments lawn. Joe/Jane Wrokingforacrustandtopayrent/mortgage really don't have the time nor the humor to deal with these well meaning people.

    so file this under shit has consequences in three acts.

    One: a tweet from someone in nz

    Act two: , curious me checking if this is real or not – it is.

    Act three: woe betide me!

    This is a dude who is a Researcher in social psychology, so one would assume that he has a bit of a brain and is fairly well educated. So when he thought that gluing himself into that position how far did he think? did he think about going to the loo, eating food, causing potential blood clods? Did he think it made him heroic? Did he think other people had to accommodate his 'protest'?

    In the meantime, private planes flying a few persons to places for no reasons or because people are rich and can afford too and it would be a fun little happy maker. In the meantime, people camp for the opening of a KMART filled with crap shipped from china and elsewhere to get a little dopamine hit, all for it to end up in our landfills. In the meantime there are almost no flying insects about and that is absolutely terrifying.

    Also, really, paid for university education is not worth shit if this is the best it produces.

    edit: this protest is not happening in NZ. It is just a little human action that is would make a worthy Brother Grimm story.

    • Incognito 15.1

      You sound like a neoliberal dogmatist judging the action of others through the lens of rational decision-making and personal responsibility. On top of that, your usual and inevitable anti-intellectual bias is on show.

      Psychology theory will undoubtedly include perspectives on personal suffering and sacrifice for the greater good and/or one’s personal belief system, which is what that the activist is describing & documenting. It is not so much whining/complaining about his personal deteriorating situation and you’re simply projecting, again.

      You love to ridicule this story and diminish it as some kind of bad fairy tale belonging in realm of fantasy, but it is very real and cannot be ignored and denied, no matter how hard you try to dismiss it as a fool’s errant. I’m in awe of their courage to put themselves through this and in a potentially highly embarrassing and literally sickening position.

  16. Peter 16

    Guarav Sharma has a chance to put his money where his mouth is. I reckon he should take the chance, take up the challenge. When he produces the evidence, the good people of Hamilton West will see that he is a man of integrity and all vote for him in the by-election.

    "Trevor Mallard demands resigned MP Gaurav Sharma release full recording of conversation

    Speaking to the NZ Herald, Mallard challenged Sharma to release the full recording of the conversation, which lasted about 30 minutes.

    "I know [Sharma] won't [release] it because in it, he tells lies," Mallard said.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/trevor-mallard-accuses-resigned-mp-gaurav-sharma-over-recording/WHACAEPJS6GOMJHJ4LHH5MAOYQ/

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