Open Mike 21/02/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 21st, 2017 - 110 comments
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110 comments on “Open Mike 21/02/2017 ”

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  1. Incognito 1
    21 February 2017 at 7:33 am

    How many more elections under MMP? It has major flaws IMO that often lead to confusion rather than giving voters clarity and assurance and a real ‘choice’.

    The agreements and ‘deals’ are flying Left, Right and Centre. They are not legally binding in any way or they would pervert the intended function and process of democratic elections; coalition deals can only be made afterwards, not beforehand, but they also don’t have legal status AFAIK.

    We now have MOUs, coat tailing, overhang, waka jumping, strategic electorate deals, tea gate, etc., and least of all, the dual ballot. It’s a mess!

    According to Sir Geoffrey Palmer:

    … MPs spend far too much time in their electorates instead of scrutinising the Executive – no doubt, because they’re focused more on campaigning and popularity than the public good.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11802883

    We would be better off with a truly proportional single vote system with a fixed number of MPs and a truly proportional minimum threshold for a seat (e.g. 0.83% for 120 MPs).

    At the same time we need stronger local and grassroots government instead of centralised power and top-down hierarchy.

    Whatever structures and institutions are in place, our society should not be managed like a (traditional) corporate business but more like a family, iwi or clan; people’s wellbeing in the short, medium, and long term should come before financial health & wealth and not the other way round.

    As long as the economy, surpluses, and tax (cuts) dominate the political conversations, especially with upcoming elections, we’ll have a long way to go …

    • Observer Tokeroa 1.1
      21 February 2017 at 9:17 am

      Hi Incognito

      The real difficulty of MMP in my opinion is that it drags un-elected people into Parliament. Thereby betraying the one Person one Vote system.

      It also confuses even intelligent everyday citizens who simply have not got time to pore over hundreds of biographies of would be candidates.

      In First past the Post elections there is ultimate simplicity. Each candidate is either elected or fails to be elected. So if you want the Wealthy to be supported, you vote National, If you want the Constructive Technical Party (Labour) to rule you would vote accordingly.

      It is interesting that the Nationals have absolutely no interest in the Environment. They positively encourage their wealthy members to pollute every river in our Nation. The Green Party tries to resist that, but with so few members they get rubbished.

      First past the Post draws together like minded voters. Anything else is a schnozzle.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1
        21 February 2017 at 12:46 pm

        What a load of bollocks.

        If everything you said was true then there wouldn’t have been such a groundswell to change out of the obviously failed system.

        MMP may not be perfect but it’s a damn sight better than FPP.

        • In Vino 1.1.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 3:29 pm

          Exactly, Draco. Also, I look at the party list, and when I vote for a list I am electing those on it. It is called reading, OT. Try getting literate. Nobody in Parliament is ‘unelected’ as you wrongly put it.

          • Leftie 1.1.1.1.1
            21 February 2017 at 6:05 pm

            Observer Tokeroa is literate, and he is talking about coat tailing, which National refused to get rid of. In a sense OT is right.

            • In Vino 1.1.1.1.1.1
              21 February 2017 at 8:37 pm

              For coat-tailing, fair enough. Otherwise, no.

              • Leftie …
                22 February 2017 at 2:18 pm

                That was what he was talking about In Vino.

                • In Vino …
                  22 February 2017 at 9:32 pm

                  Sorry. Leftie – ‘he’ makes no mention of coat-tailing. Re-read – ‘he’ wants FPP only, and appears to be totally against MMP party list vote system.

                  • Leftie …
                    24 February 2017 at 7:03 pm

                    Didn’t think he had to explicitly state the words coat tailing. It’s certainly the impression I got when I read his post.

          • Once was and others etc 1.1.1.1.2
            21 February 2017 at 7:00 pm

            What if he/she is illiterate? Or partially so.
            What if he/she isn’t as gorgeous as you?
            Snot Rock Soince – disenfranchoise NOW!

            This is still a left wing site, yes? It’s that Broad Church left wing site – or so I’ve been told. One that doesn’t require the intellect of a Hillary Stace, or indeed a Lynne Prentice, OR the compassion of ……. take your pick

            ….. maybe not. The daylight visible whilst spending time up one’s own arse springs to mind, as well as various other platitudes – like we don’t know how lucky we are.

            To that poster and contributor: GET LITERATE NOW!!!!! GET LITERATE NOW !!!!!

            ya vol herr commandant!

            Perhaps the deep and meaningful @ Weka would care to comment if you’re not too busy trying to understand underlying meaningfulness. I’ve got a set of crystals that might be able to assist.

            !!!!!!! BAN !!!!! we do not allow people to call into question anyone who / READ THE !!!!!!!!!!!! (small print) / etc.

            • Xanthe 1.1.1.1.2.1
              21 February 2017 at 7:03 pm

              + 1.36 yottaplex

            • In Vino 1.1.1.1.2.2
              21 February 2017 at 8:07 pm

              ‘Jawohl’, thank you. I can only speculate on where your head is.

            • Leftie 1.1.1.1.2.3
              22 February 2017 at 2:20 pm

              ROFL Once was and others etc!

              • In Vino …
                22 February 2017 at 9:44 pm

                Rubbish. (Anyone as gorgeous as me is in a terrible condition.)

                But I am tired of FFP simpletons claiming that MMP list members are ‘unelected’ because they did not stand in an FFP electorate vote. That is a nonsensical – a lot of the losing runner-ups in big FFP electorates are far superior to the donkeys that win FFP in a safe seat.

                Your ‘daylight vision’ sentence has now given me an idea of where your own head might be, Once was.

      • Incognito 1.1.2
        21 February 2017 at 10:36 pm

        Thank you for your reply.

        Instead of opting for a hybrid system to replace FPP it would have been more courageous (politically speaking) to have adopted a truly proportional single vote system – no, I am not saying it is perfect.

        Just consider for a moment how much (air)time and energy goes into the ‘idiosyncrasies’ of MMP and how much it pulls our focus away from much more important issues (and policies as somebody (?) pointed out somewhere here on TS).

        I don’t have time to argue for or against FPP so I just provide a link(s) for your perusal:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting#Benefits
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting#Criticisms

  2. RTM 2
    21 February 2017 at 8:18 am

    Repressed history: New Zealand’s role in the Pacific slave trade and slavery’s curious relationship with the first international rugby match played here: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2017/02/snatching-and-killing.html

  3. garibaldi 3
    21 February 2017 at 8:25 am

    OK so we want a change of Govt. So what does Labour do? It lies and obfuscates to shut down another Left party— Mana.
    On RNZ this morning I heard Kelvin Davis coming across trying to be smart, but just being smarmy .I heard Andrew Little being disingenuous , if not deliberately lying, about the agreement between Mana/Maori. They know damned well the agreement only goes to 23/9, just like their MOU with the Greens( who, incidentally, Labour have been trying to shaft for years).
    When is Labour going to grow up and fight the real fight against the real enemy of the Left?
    I know the answer…. they won’t because they are still bogged down in their neolib /1984 mistaken policies.

    • Cinny 3.1
      21 February 2017 at 8:33 am

      I wonder if the Maori Party want a change of Government?

    • marty mars 3.2
      21 February 2017 at 8:48 am

      Yes and they won’t change – why? They like being smarmy bullshitters – why? The middle piddles like it.

      • greywarshark 3.2.1
        21 February 2017 at 9:04 am

        The middle piddles? Is that where all the trickling down from the elites gathers and pools?

        • marty mars 3.2.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 9:27 am

          Ha yes could be muddle puddles too

          • Alan 3.2.1.1.1
            21 February 2017 at 9:40 am

            what, the people who work and pay tax you mean?

            • marty mars 3.2.1.1.1.1
              21 February 2017 at 9:52 am

              A lot of people do that Alan – personally I think tax is okay to pay for the collective benefits reaped in society, don’t you?

            • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.1.2
              21 February 2017 at 10:38 am

              We all pay tax Alan it’s called GST (except those who are in business or some scheme that they can wangle their way out of it.)

              And being in paid work and taxed doesn’t mean they are better than someone working but not being paid and not paying wag tax, they are called volunteers. Or they may be working at something that harms fellow citizens, and pay tax on their earnings, or some of them. Or they might want more work so they can pay more tax, but the government has organised the economy and laws so that they can’t get guaranteed adequate working hours every week.

              Or they may be people so damaged by life that they can’t work much but can do work if they can get help with it, and then there are parents and caregivers who look after others but don’t get paid for it. Then there are the real bludgers who don’t do anything like useful work and manage their tax to minimal, some around the lower middle class, and some big earners floating around doing very little that is useful to society but cleverly creaming of millions of dollars from their schemes.

              So keep your one liners to yourself. You will just tire your brain out needlessly, telling us the rote learning of street yokels.

              • Alan …
                21 February 2017 at 2:19 pm

                you are implying that I am disdainful of people not in paid employment,that is not the case.
                My point is that referring to the “middle” as middle piddles etc. does your cause no good whatsoever – but suit yourself

            • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.1.1.1.3
              21 February 2017 at 10:49 am

              1. What Marty said .
              2. Yes, “the people who work and pay tax” are being “trickled” upon by those who can afford to avoid tax.
              3. The people being hurt the most by this callous incompetence are as always, the poor.

              • Carolyn_nth …
                21 February 2017 at 10:58 am

                Then there’s all the people who do unpaid work that is essential to the running of society – caring for people in their homes, voluntary organisations that provide support to those in need, etc. And such people still get taxed on their incomes, whether underpaid employment or state benefits.

    • Gabby 3.3
      21 February 2017 at 11:29 am

      I heard Hone playing the race card. Sooner’s better than later I guess.

    • Peter Swift 3.4
      21 February 2017 at 11:54 am

      “When is Labour going to grow up and fight the real fight against the real enemy of the Left?”

      National and their support clowns, Act, Dunne and the Maori party.

    • Leftie 3.5
      21 February 2017 at 5:55 pm

      That’s politics, Garibaldi. Haven’t the Maori party been just as scathing?

  4. Morrissey 4
    21 February 2017 at 10:25 am

    John Waters is someone I respect: but what
    the HELL was he doing on this horror show?

    It’s pretty desperate when Piers Morgan is the smartest and most honest person in the room. The pathetic reiteration of DNC campaign lies starts with the woman guest at the 3:48 mark….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYm-gW8yfA8

    • Peter Swift 4.1
      21 February 2017 at 11:10 am

      Anti republican, dismissive of Trump, atheist, supporter of equality, advocate for minorities and he doesn’t mind getting dirty for a cause.
      What could Bill Maher possibly have done to be called less honest than Morgan on a left leaning website?

      Did he say something that offended you in 1987? lol

      • Morrissey 4.1.1
        21 February 2017 at 6:49 pm

        You need to listen to the nonsense that Maher and that confused woman were spouting.

        • Peter Swift 4.1.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 8:00 pm

          I did, watched it all, like I do regularly. Great show, admirable left winger.
          The only nonsense is predictably yours.

          • Morrissey 4.1.1.1.1
            22 February 2017 at 9:01 am

            I did, watched it all,

            ???? Really? Your comments indicate otherwise.

            like I do regularly.

            Could I suggest you replace your open-mouthed viewing with some serious READING?

            Great show, admirable left winger.

            Well, if the word “left winger” has recently changed its meaning to “rabid supporter of U.S. terror and Israel’s right to exterminate the Palestinians”, you’re correct. In the real world, however, your statement is risible.

            The only nonsense is predictably yours.

            You are, yet again, my befuddled friend, way out of your depth. Again, I urge you to do some READING. Serious reading, that is.

            Is there a library nearby?

  5. Carolyn_nth 5
    21 February 2017 at 10:55 am

    I unfollowed TDB on twitter today, on the basis of – if I stop to throw stones (unpick the arguments) at every dog that barks, I’ll never get to my destination – got a lot of other things I need to do this week.

    Who knew the real reason Paul got banned from TS? i.e content and viewpoints/arguments against fake news and for way forward for the left, and not process or breaching TS policy guide.

    • weka 5.1
      21 February 2017 at 6:00 pm

      Lots of lies being told about the standard at the moment, and Bryce Edwards is putting them out into the Msm. Looks like macho politics to me.

      • Karen 5.1.1
        21 February 2017 at 6:11 pm

        I stopped reading TDB and Chris Trotter a couple of years ago, and I haven’t read anything by Bryce Edwards for some months. Life is too short to read crap by ill-informed blokes who claim to represent the working class, but are really just white, middle-class, middle-aged men who feel threatened by anybody who isn’t the same as them.

        Actual left wing people who I follow on twitter sometimes refer to stuff these guys have written and I know I made the right choice.

        • Karen 5.1.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 6:13 pm

          I stopped reading TDB and Chris Trotter a couple of years ago, and I haven’t read anything by Bryce Edwards for some months. Life is too short to read crap by ill-informed blokes who claim to represent the working class, but are really just white, middle-class, middle-aged men who feel threatened by anybody who isn’t the same as them.

          Actual left wing people who I follow on twitter sometimes refer to (and mock) the stuff these guys have written and I know I made the right choice.

        • Carolyn_nth 5.1.1.2
          22 February 2017 at 6:21 am

          Bomber does come from a working class background. I guess he now has achieved middle class status through education. So, I still tend to see him as having a bit of a working class perspective.

      • Carolyn_nth 5.1.2
        21 February 2017 at 6:15 pm

        Oh dear. There’s some much faction fighting going on. Us vs them in various ways.

        And I also looked at a post there at TDB about “identity politics” and class. By a guy who the bio says he’s a postgrad sociologist and researcher. Been there done that – well partly sociology. I know about the theories he’s citing. And I could produce an argument to counter his post, but it’d take me a more time than I have right now.

        Basically though, I am a bit confused about his use of (definition of?) “identity politics”. He rubbishes it while still seeing capitalism as patriarchal.

        Many people use the term “identity politics” to refer to any feminist, anti-misogynist, anti-sexist, anti-racist, anti-patriarchy comments/posts/articles.

        So I started the day confused about how the term “identity politics” is used.

        Then I watched Al Jazerra’s latest up front ep.

        I got distracted from the main topic (populism) by the way “identity politics” was being used. One of the panel described Trump’s politics as IP because of the way he divides people into “us” (one identity) and “them” (another identity): i.e. the left behind (us) and Muslims (them).

        Other panelists talked about how economics and IP are interconnected.

        I decided “identity politics” has become a useless term, like PC, that means whatever a person (or their political position) wants it to mean.

        • Xanthe 5.1.2.1
          21 February 2017 at 7:08 pm

          Or just possibly “identity politics” means exactly what it says!

          • Carolyn_nth 5.1.2.1.1
            21 February 2017 at 7:30 pm

            It’s how it’s used, which clearly means different things to different people. So saying it is what it says it is…. adds nothing to the discussion.

            Language is only as good as the way it is used. Language is the result of a process where people in a society agree on the meaning of a word or term. these meanings change over time in relation to the way tehy are used.

            I don’t like the term Identity politics, because it is used in ways that aren’t the sum total of the 2 words. I prefer to talk about social and economic justice.

            Some people seem to assume “identity politics” is separate from social class issues. In fact they are intertwined – as defined by wikipedia:

            Examples include social organizations based on age, social class, culture, dialect, disability, education, ethnicity, language, nationality, gender identity, generation, occupation, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, settlement, urban and rural habitation, and veteran status.

            In political debates it’s often used mainly to refer to and attack politics of race, gender and sexuality, And it is often used in oppositon to class politics.

            But as the wikipedia page goes on to say:

            Formally, it may even be found in Karl Marx’s earliest statements about a class becoming conscious of itself and developing a class identity.

            i.e. in order to organise politically as a class, workers need to become conscious of their shared identity and exploitation as workers.

      • Anne 5.1.3
        21 February 2017 at 6:58 pm

        Bryce Edwards is putting them out into the Msm. Looks like macho politics to me.

        Perhaps its payback because some TS commenters (including me) have over the years pulled his epistles to pieces – usually deservedly so.

      • lprent 5.1.4
        21 February 2017 at 7:08 pm

        I have always found this style of particular trashing meme rather amusing, albeit rather tiresome.

        We get it every few years from different groups. It typically happens when some group doesn’t like things being aired that they would prefer never got mentioned (because it would interfere with their wee games).

        Over the last 9.5 years, we’d have had similar sustained attempts at denigrating TS about once every 1-2 years. Never works in terms of the site surviving or readership or anything else. We provide a relatively open source of debate which has a pretty active policy of tossing out pirates trying to board it to control the debate. Doesn’t matter if it is right trolls, left trolls, journalists, MPs, party whips, people who picked up bans, blogs that don’t like the site, ardent feminists, ardent dickheads, ardent anything or whatever. It is always pretty damn stupid and usually done by people who fail to understand the basic precept of this site. We agree to disagree, but are also willing to damn well argue about it.

        I suspect that the underlying rationale for such attempts is something like they can drive away funders (because why else would they always try to push it into the public sphere?). What they don’t seem to understand is that over the last decade, the site has moved from not needing any money to run, to needing money, and in a determined effort – back to not needing any money to run. It makes it really hard to do anything about. So do our policies about moderating and protecting the privacy or authors and commenters.

        The site currently requires about $200 per month which we get from donations and some time from people willing to be authors, moderators, or techs. The latter is usually me. The site is scaleable to at least 4 times the traffic from the last elections. And people are always free to comment here provided they follow our rules about bad behaviour.

        Personally, I am looking forward getting over this last year’s project and back to the less time and attention consuming maintenance. That will give me more time for the site again.

      • Bearded Git 5.1.5
        21 February 2017 at 8:05 pm

        Agreed Weka-Bryce Edwards never fails to attack the Left in his articles.

        He is dangerous because he purports to be balanced and simply reporting the weeks’ political comings and goings when in fact he sticks it up the Left every time.

  6. garibaldi 6
    21 February 2017 at 10:56 am

    This is how god blesses the USA.
    The Worlds biggest employers…….
    1. US Dept of Defense( sorry that should really be Attack) —- 3,200,000

    2. Peoples LIB. Army ( China) ———————————————2,300,000

    3. Walmart ———————————————————————-2,100,000

    4. Mc Donalds —————————————————————–1,900,000

    • Wayne 6.1
      21 February 2017 at 4:19 pm

      The PLA number is those who are full time in uniform, whereas the US DoD is nniform full time, uniform, part-time and civilians. If you added the civilians and reservists to the PLA, it would be bigger.

      • In Vino 6.1.1
        21 February 2017 at 8:44 pm

        Wow! How terrifying. Given that the USA is many years ahead in high-tech hardware, but Righties like Wayne prefer to mention only what suits them.

        • greywarshark 6.1.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 10:03 pm

          Hey he was just filling out the stats with what he does know. Everybody knows something In Vino and even if it is not pleasant to read we should.

          • In Vino 6.1.1.1.1
            22 February 2017 at 9:48 pm

            It is a petty point that does not outweigh the rest of what Garibaldi quoted.
            If it really balanced things up, I would be grateful. I think he is quibbling disingenuously.

  7. aerobubble 7
    21 February 2017 at 1:23 pm

    How to make bad law? Fail to recognise practice, fail to appreciate need, hear only senile voices speaking to their peculiar issues.

    Grey power does not want kids to cycle on pavements. Kids do though, and parnt want them to stay on the pavement. And the earlier, and more experience kids get cycling the more they appriciate others needs. So its insane that grey power is against kids cycling.

    But its worse. Ask any cyclist trapped at a red light, undected and now illegally cannot cycle on pavement, and so banned from using the utility of their cycle. And all because a few olds might have an accident?

    Take the one way road, cant cycle up the wrong way, cant cycle on the pavement! Cycles effectively banned.

    In any accident involving bikes and cars, cyclists come off worse, much like any pedestrian does. So why are we so down on cyclists? Where is their voice? nAtional radio think the only voice for cyclists is someone who cant teach kids to cycle on
    pavements in their day job.Thats how lousy laws are.

    Cyclists are pedestrians and have the same rights to cycle on pedestrian pavements alongside such wheeled vehicles, as motorized wheelchairs, mopeds deliverying mail, scateboarders, etc. They all use the pavements on wheels and Grey power accidents are not a crisis. Because people naturally do not want to engage with oldies because they are so boring and talk nonsense, kids need to learn this early.

    Routinely cyclists ride on pavements, its illegal but its safer than sharing roads with trunks.

    • McFlock 7.1
      21 February 2017 at 1:28 pm

      Not for pedestrians, especially the elderly. Which is why Age Concern have an issue with cycling on the footpath.

      you’ve never really explained why pedestrians should take on the risks of your recreation choice.

      • In Vino 7.1.1
        21 February 2017 at 3:39 pm

        A cyclist is not on foot, and therefore cannot possibly be a pedestrian. Don’t mangle our language. (Directed at aerobubble: Cyclists are not motorists, but that does not make them pedestrians.)

        • mac1 7.1.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 8:51 pm

          I was walking along the Wellington waterfront a year ago and was passed from behind by a cyclist who went by within a meter until I heard the wind of his passing. I don’t have a rear vision mirror as a pedestrian. If I had moved to the right by one step he would have hit me. At his speed and the reaction times needed it could not have been otherwise.

          As a former teacher, I once did an experiment with a class of year nine students to test their reaction times and the brakes on their bikes. They thought they were quick enough and safe with what they did, riding on footpaths as cars pulled unseen out of high fenced driveways. I had that day seen a boy ride into the side of a car doing just that.

          I set up a similar situation as an experiment.

          None passed.

      • aerobubble 7.1.2
        23 February 2017 at 2:50 pm

        Integrity would suggest the Grey council answer some simple questions. Like where are cyclist to go, its not illehal to ride a bike. As for the smear that Cyclists aren’t trustworthy because they cycle past people who have poor hearing, really, is that supposed to be an objection, are we banning joggers to?

        Cyclist use feet power. Cyclists are pedestrians, then comeput just as badly when hit by cars and trucks. They are no different than other wheeled pedestrians, skakeboards, rollerskates, and joggers are fast too.

        How utterly innane, Cyclist are not pedestrians because they are not road vehicles, listen to yourself a moment, your ignoring the fact that carless citizens use bikes and roads are dangerous places for them, and liberty beats out death anyday. Cyclists will continue to use pedestrian walkways.

        But lets play a bit. Why do olds get free transit after 9. To keep them off the footpaths so employees can cycle to work, kids cycle to school out ofrush hour traffic. Ratepayers fund footpaths and free buses for olds. Olds aren’t using the footpaths as much during rushhour, they wait for free buses. So cyclists who are unfamiliar to non japenese who allow cyclists to use footpaths, should not be funding free old age bus trips. Its about sharing not banning. Most people are in school, at work during time olds are using footpaths, you lazy thinking senile old bats. It has nothing to do with accidents with old people and bikes, its to do with the age problem of old people with too much time on their hand and too senile to give a crap.

        • aerobubble 7.1.2.1
          23 February 2017 at 2:57 pm

          And then there is the reality, there is going to be no doubt when accidents do happen that stupid cyclists dont understand how utterly senile deaf old people are tt they ever thought they could cycle anywhere near them. And good on them, senile and stupid people meet. No doubt some old cyclist banned from using his car and whose Grey power, oldie council, have forgotten has rights to movement too. Olds hurting rights of other oldies.

          Unfund free buses for olds if they continue to ban pedestrians using the footpath with their bikes, oh, but posties use mopeds, olds use motorised wheel chairs, yet kids aren’t to be trusted. No, its senility that is untrusted.

        • McFlock 7.1.2.2
          23 February 2017 at 3:15 pm

          Sorry, I missed the bit where you explained why I, as an actual pedestrian, need to absorb some of the risks that come from your choice of vehicle.

          Oh, and according to the Land Transport (Road User) rule 2004:

          cycle—
          (a)

          means a vehicle that has at least 2 wheels and that is designed primarily to be propelled by the muscular energy of the rider; and
          (b)

          includes a power-assisted cycle

          footpath means a path or way principally designed for, and used by, pedestrians; and includes a footbridge

          pedestrian—
          (a)

          means a person on foot on a road; and
          (b)

          includes a person in or on a contrivance equipped with wheels or revolving runners that is not a vehicle

          So yes, bicycles are vehicles, and pedestrians can be on a wheeled thingamagig that’s not a vehicle.

    • Psycho Milt 7.2
      21 February 2017 at 3:49 pm

      And all because a few olds might have an accident?

      Er, yes – because a few olds might “have an accident,” ie be struck and injured by cyclists. On what planet isn’t that a good reason?

      • saveNZ 7.2.1
        21 February 2017 at 4:04 pm

        On the planet where kids might get struck by cars and trucks if they are on the road.

        • McFlock 7.2.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 4:17 pm

          I’m moderately surprised that primary-school kids aren’t permitted to ride on the footpath.

          That having been said, we’re still talking about a voluntary decision to cycle vs that fact that some people have to walk because they can’t drive or cycle, and they’re the ones being put at risk.

          Maybe kids shouldn’t cycle unsupervised until they’re old enough to deal with obstacles and hazards, like cars or pedestrians? And if they’re supervised, they should be on the road.

        • Psycho Milt 7.2.1.2
          21 February 2017 at 4:28 pm

          The original premise was that “cyclists” should be allowed to ride on the footpath. If it’s revised down to “kids” (primary-school age, presumably) should be allowed to ride on the footpath, it’s less ridiculous.

          • In Vino 7.2.1.2.1
            21 February 2017 at 8:53 pm

            There are many, many kids I would trust. But there are a certain number I would not trust with a wheel barrow, let alone a bicycle.
            If we are going to do it properly, we do what I remember from Cologne 1979: footpath clearly demarcated into pedestrian and cyclist areas. That worked.
            But NZ can never do what overseas countries do. I remember when Hamilton tried to introduce a parking system that I had seen work perfectly in Cambridge, UK. Hamilton gave up because it was ‘too difficult’ for our parkers.. Go figure.

            • greywarshark 7.2.1.2.1.1
              21 February 2017 at 10:00 pm

              In Vino
              That thing about NZ never being able to replicate a successful system successfully is what I have noticed.

              and JanM
              That’s exactly the same difficulty I notice as I go round. I don’t want little kids on the road, but I don’t want older kids and adult men shooting past me at speed. And I find that family cyclists have a god complex, and will shoot down private lanes as throughways without a thought. Get on two wheels and the world is yours.

              When I am on the footpath I don’t want to be as alert as if I was walking on the road. You need to be able to relax pm the footpath, that’s why we have them so you won’t be run into by machine, crazy children, excited dogs, scooting cats, scooting Mums. A fall for an older person can mean permanent disablement for the last of their years, you just don’t heal like a young person does.

    • JanM 7.3
      21 February 2017 at 5:12 pm

      Good gracious me – there are two major groups who are vulnerable in our society; the young and the elderly. Both deserve consideration. Some of your language around the elderly practically amounts to abuse – they are as entitled to safety as the children. While I agree that riding a bike on the road is very risky, so is being a pedestrian sharing a footpath with cyclists – especially the young and inexperienced. The faster cycle lanes can be placed everywhere the better – and that’s where all cyclists should go. Until then – a little civility and consideration would go a long way. If you’re really lucky you’ll get to be an ‘oldie’ yourself some day – then you can look back on this sort of language and feel a bit ashamed maybe

      • aerobubble 7.3.1
        23 February 2017 at 3:04 pm

        Abuse. Banning people who cannot us a oneway road, as they cant cycle on the pavement and risk fine accident goin against traffic! Sorry until you can understand outright banning is undemocratic and the real abuse since the stats are firmly against the harm your side suggests. People do not invite accidents, joggers dont, skateboards dont, posties on mopeds, all us the footpath, any increased harm is in the minds of fools. abuse yeah, stupidity should be called out.

        • McFlock 7.3.1.1
          23 February 2017 at 7:57 pm

          Hang on, are you now arguing that one-way streets are violations of human rights?

          Why can’t a cyclist use the same route as every car driver who is also barred from going the wrong way up the same road?

          • aerobubble 7.3.1.1.1
            25 February 2017 at 10:47 am

            Simple. Pedestrians, under their own power, forced to take side roads, invariable steep, would be a huge impediment to their using cycles. So, yeah its a rights issue, which would then justify asking the question, why ban something outright. Which in Japan they dont. Nobody has yet said why we need to ban cycles, that should tell you something about how bad the laws are. Kids dont learn good behaviour, people ignore the law, cyclists get held up at red lights that never change as they dont detect them. You dont see car drivers getting out and pushing their bikes over the line to behave legally because its a stupid law. Cyclists are no different to any personally power person. Ban moped, ban motorized wheelchairs, dont fund free public transport, all the arguments you will hear to justify no banning apply equally to cyclists. Sure, helmets and bike bells, sure thin typed racing bikes that need a minimum speed as they are unstable at low speed, sure keep them to the roads, but a mountain bike can stop on a ledge, it aint a threat. Any jogger, walker, can be unstable and knock a oldie over, any kid with a ball. Thats not a good enough reason to so restrict cyclists that it makes cyclying unusable. A kid died when run over by a truck on the way to school. Trucks cant see cyclists.

    • greywarshark 7.4
      21 February 2017 at 10:10 pm

      Burble on aerobubble
      You really ranted a crock here. Think again about your mangey right of way even though its safer than sharing roads with trunks, and drunks, and funks.

      • aerobubble 7.4.1
        23 February 2017 at 3:08 pm

        Not one apology to kids for banning them from footpaths, like old people dont know when kid cycle to school, when workers are cycling to work. A kid was run over by a truck on the way to school. iTs shameful that kids aren’t learning early how to interact with pedestrians, and suffer a life of abuse from old people who think them a threat. Get a brain, oh wait, its senility the real problem.

        • greywarshark 7.4.1.1
          23 February 2017 at 3:19 pm

          aerobubble
          Your abuse underlines the difficulties that we face when proper facilities that are needed by citizens aren’t provided. But $millions can be put into cycleways intended to appeal to tourism and the recreational rider.

          Your attitude aerobubble is worrying, it sounds as if you have such a head of steam, that if I was involved in some sort of collision with a child, you would attack me in anger, perhaps give me a kinghit.

          I think you had better restrain yourself, and write down your problem and a practical solution, like making a separated way along a certain bit of footpath that schoolkids use. That would be a positive start and you could campaign for more using your concern and your anger to fuel it. I am sure many people would support you but don’t give me your nastiness. I am only stating what you are stating from a different angle of concern. Leave me alone, stop attacking me on this subject.

          • aerobubble 7.4.1.1.1
            24 February 2017 at 2:47 pm

            Clearly you are incapable of accepting the greater harm, that pedestrians on or off cycles are seroiusly harmed when hit by road vehicles. Whereas a few bruises from a contrived one off accident where kids learn early by being allowed to rideon the pavement, does not cary much merit. And the fact that you’d admit you seeing an accident, involve said behaviour and not merit it worthy to phone police, indicates your a troll.

    • mpledger 7.5
      22 February 2017 at 9:34 am

      I was walking to school with my daughter and she got hit from behind by a young boy on a bike. He was riding with his older brother in tandem and his brother didn’t leave him enough room for them both to get around us and the younger one didn’t think to use his brakes and stop until he had room.

      Primary age kids should only ride on the pavement if they are under arms length control of an adult.

  8. saveNZ 8
    21 February 2017 at 3:56 pm

    Turn’s out Dotcom is not guilty of copywrite infringement. surprise surprise.

    But NZ Government still want to waste money fighting to extradite him….

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/02/20/breaking-media-statement-from-dotcom-legal-team/?utm_content=buffer0fbde&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Hmmmm… what we could do with the millions being wasted on this case on lawyers to ‘help’ poor multimillion dollar US corporations who love to stash their money away in tax havens, while our poor go hungry paying for all this overseas corporate welfare….

    And there is that waiver that the NZ government were tricked into signing about if he is found not guilty about costs……

    Kinda makes the yokel business agreements with Peter Thiel pale in comparison.

    • Leftie 8.1
      21 February 2017 at 6:10 pm

      Agree Save NZ, and it’s crazy that this case is being dragged on, at NZ tax payer expense, like it is. National don’t care, they are not the ones having to fork out the money for this favour for their American mates.

  9. Leftie 9
    21 February 2017 at 6:13 pm

    “Willie Jackson: The health of our democracy is at risk with the Electoral Commission failing voters”

    <a href="http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/manukau-courier/89580371/willie-jackson-the-health-of-our-democracy-is-at-risk

    • adam 9.1
      21 February 2017 at 7:20 pm

      Totally agree, the Mana party was talking about this after the last election.

      If memory servers me rightly, via adds on trademe and seek. In Auckland alone, the Electoral Commission has gone through at least 2 complete replacements of management (returns officer) since the last election.

      The rest of the country is in a bad way as well.

      • Leftie 9.1.1
        21 February 2017 at 9:48 pm

        The EC should have listened. Interesting info there Adam.

        “Speaking with many in my community, the poor fear debt collectors or state agencies using their enrolment details to hunt them down, and many of our domestic violence survivors don’t want their abusers using the electoral roll to find them.

        Why can’t the Electoral Commission offer an easy box ticking process for those enrolling to not appear on the published roll to ease the fears of the poor and the abused?”

        Cinny and I were discussing this very subject not that long ago. It is a pain for most to go through the process of trying to get on the unpublished roll, one can see why people wouldn’t even bother. There are a number of points that the EC need to get off their butts to do, and do it now, and this is one of them. Make it easy for voters, not harder.

  10. Penny Bright 10
    21 February 2017 at 6:20 pm

    TALK IS CHEAP – ACTIVISTS GET THINGS DONE!

    Fighting to STOP NIKI’S EVICTION!

    Fighting to STOP THE PRIVATISATION of STATE HOUSING!

    Well done Niki.

    Well done Lisa Gibson.

    Well done all of us who are actively supporting Niki and her brave stand!

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11804705

    Glen Innes former state house tenant Niki Rauti is challenging her eviction on the basis that the agency trying to evict her is not actually her landlord.

    Photo / Greg Bowker

    By Simon Collins

    A Glen Innes tenant battling against eviction from her former state house has put a surprising argument to the Tenancy Tribunal – that the agency purporting to evict her isn’t actually her landlord.

    Tenant Niki Rauti, 62, and her advocate, perennial campaigner Penny Bright, have also discovered that the 2700 former Housing NZ homes that were supposed to have been transferred last year to an entity jointly owned by the Government and Auckland Council have actually gone to another entity that is still almost 100 per cent owned by the Government.

    A third entity, Tāmaki Housing Association Limited Partnership, has been set up to manage the houses, but will seek bids next month from other social housing agencies to take over managing the houses from early next year.

    By next year the Tāmaki Redevelopment Company, the joint venture owned 59 per cent by the Government and 41 per cent by Auckland Council, will no longer predominantly either own or manage the properties.

    Bright told the Tenancy Tribunal today that the complex structure looked like “a massive smoke and mirrors exercise” – with real consequences for Aucklanders.

    “The 41 per cent shareholding of Auckland Council seems to have completely evaporated into nothing,” she said.
    ………

    Penny Bright
    2017 Independent candidate
    Mt Albert by-election.

    • Leftie 10.1
      21 February 2017 at 6:34 pm

      Well done Penny and to all that have got involved!! And you beat me to it. I was just about to post that article on here.

    • Carolyn_nth 10.2
      21 February 2017 at 8:53 pm

      Very interesting an enterprising. Looking forward to the tribunal adjudicator’s decision.

    • saveNZ 10.3
      22 February 2017 at 8:21 am

      Great news. Surely they have to reapply with the correct documentation as it is a legal decision. They can’t ‘fudge’ it!

  11. mickysavage 11
    21 February 2017 at 8:41 pm

    Apologies i got stuck in meetings and could not put up daily review in time …

    • greywarshark 11.1
      21 February 2017 at 9:49 pm

      mickysavage
      We are so important surely that you could extract yourself from something boring and tedious by saying that the show can’t go on here without you – sorry folks have to duck off and keep TS on the road. For all our ups and downs we have shown more stability and lasting power and usefulness than most nz political parties.

  12. Carolyn_nth 12
    21 February 2017 at 9:11 pm

    Hmmm… wonder what this is about?

    Twitter exchange between Hooton and Jodi Ihaka (ex journo now “spin doctor for the red team” according to her twitter profile.

    Ends with this from Ihaka:

    @MatthewHootonNZ I’ve just started – digging up the dirt on the Maori Party National deal is dirty as….and tuturu Maori know it!!!

    • BM 12.1
      21 February 2017 at 9:28 pm

      Labour intends to go to war against the Maori party?

      • Leftie 12.1.1
        21 February 2017 at 9:50 pm

        That’s politics, BM.

        • marty mars 12.1.1.1
          21 February 2017 at 9:55 pm

          Stupid ego driven politics from labour

          • Leftie 12.1.1.1.1
            22 February 2017 at 12:55 am

            Can say the same about the Maori party, Marty.

            • marty mars 12.1.1.1.1.1
              22 February 2017 at 8:55 am

              All you have is one line mindless slogans so sure if that turns you on or makes you feel better. Truth is if you go over your recent comments they are mostly just negative one line dismissals. You make no attempt to hear any voice except your own or those that you agree with. You disrespect other commenters with your content and style – reminds me of Paul but you seem worse to me. I wonder if you’ll even read all that or just knee-jerk back.

              • Leftie …
                22 February 2017 at 1:48 pm

                What rubbish. Actually Marty, if anything your rant describes you. And if memory serves, you have been accused of that by others on here, some time back. You have to get a grip with the fact that not everyone is willing to, or wants to support National’s Maori party, that do not speak for, or represent all Maori. A lot of people want to change the government, there are those that feel that the Maori party do not want that. “A vote for the Maori party is a vote for National” still holds relevance today, as it did back in 2014. No one is stopping you or anyone else from supporting the Maori party, that props up National, but we are entitled to our opinions on this, like you are, without getting personal and/or abusive.

            • marty mars 12.1.1.1.2.1
              22 February 2017 at 9:29 am

              Yep they will all learn – the musings of politically motivated spinners are irrelevant and obnoxious. Go and sit with English Little in the thick seats.

              • Leftie …
                22 February 2017 at 1:51 pm

                You can’t force those that want to change the government to support National’s Maori party.

    • Leftie 12.2
      22 February 2017 at 1:01 am

      Hmmm… interesting. I’m curious too Carolyn_nth.

    • bwaghorn 12.3
      22 February 2017 at 7:44 am

      follow the money would be my guess, if tuku and his type are around

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