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Open Mike 21/08/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 21st, 2017 - 93 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

93 comments on “Open Mike 21/08/2017”

  1. Bad mistake Morgan calling on ardern to show she’s more than lipstick on a pig. The pig is you Morgan – goodbye oops party.

    • North 1.1

      Not “oops”…….poops.

    • eco maori 1.2

      Were did that story come from If its true Gareth he has just pissed in the wind

      • marty mars 1.2.1

        Nzh – can’t link on phone sorry – front page and breaking news prob on radio now although I haven’t checked.

        • Cinny

          Link here via the Herald


          With Sean Plunkett as Morgans campaign manager is it any wonder Morgan is taking this kind of bullying approach

          What an arsehole, Morgan has just posted on his twitter a cup that looks like Muldoon with a lipstick next to it

          Attacking someones appearance because they are beating you in the polls is nothing more than jealousy, and ego issues from Morgan

          • marty mars

            Thanks – so sad to hear these gendered insults. I though morgan was better than this – he isnt, he’s just another privileged anachronism.

            Edit just looked at that Twitter – ugly attitude morgan -let’s talk policy lol yeah sure mate youve just fucked your party, lost your dignity and respect and wasted money – a real hero all because of ego and a big mouth.

            • Carolyn_nth

              Best to ignore it. It’s probably just TOP people doing a Trump because they have been getting so little coverage – desperate bid for media attention. The more Morgan/TOP are attacked for it, the more they will stand their ground.

              • crashcart

                Or.. it’s a commonly used metaphor that means trying to make something ugly pretty by glossing over and not making changes.

                Lets be honest here. What has labour changed in the last few weeks other than the leader? Are the policies the same? It seems that the only change is cosmetic and so his metaphor would seem accurate.

                If the issue with this is that he used a metaphor that included lipstick … honestly are we really at the point where you have to sanitise ever single word just in case someone wants to make it sexist, or gender biased? I could get just as offended that you think speaking of lipstick is a sexist attack when many men enjoy wearing it.

                This reminds me so much of when Labour supports ate Hone last election. Trying to find every small utterance to discredit and minimise him. In the end both Mana and TOP have a hell of a lot of very good left wing principles.

                • Carolyn_nth

                  I don’t see TOP as having left wing principles. Most importantly, it’s another TOP-down party where those with the main power make the decisions about what they think is best for the least well off.

                  To me the left is about policies and values being driven more collectively from the bottom up – from as much engagement with a broad base of people as possible. And they seem to begin with an economic perspective, rather than by looking first at the kind of society works best for the many.

                  • crashcart

                    So you think a party being left wing is based on where the policy comes from? That seems pretty strange. If a party is calling for policy to really lower house prices, who cares if it was one or many people who came up with the idea. Large groups can come up with stupid ideas as well.

                    TOP base their policy on research on what is best for lowering inequality and protecting the environment. I don’t agree with all of them but if that’s not left wing gearing in your books I am really confused by what you consider to be left wing.

                    • Carolyn_nth

                      Ultimately the proof is in the policies. But TOP policies betray their origins.

                      The UBI, for instance, does not cater well to those on disabilities and it’s set too low to be helpful to many on lower incomes.

                      Economics is not infallible. It depends what research they look to.

                    • crashcart

                      I agree that their UBI is not good enough and that comes a lot from the fact they have the opinion that a UBI would discourage people from working (very mixed research results on this). As I said I don’t like all their policy. I would not go so far as to try and claim that they aren’t left ideal’s even if the party themselves try to avoid labels of left or right.

                    • mikesh

                      I don´t think the amounts are cast in stone. They would probably do some more research to decide how much when the the policy is finally implemented.

    • JanM 1.3

      To be fair, he has just used a euphemism for something that is all for show with no substance (which, by the way I do NOT think describes Jacinda) but of all the stupid, thoughtless ways he could have expressed it, this just takes the cake.
      What a twerp!

      • crashcart 1.3.1

        That is not what the metaphor means. it means making cosmetic changes with out making any real improvements. What has Labour fundamentally changed since Jacinda took over?

        His metaphor seems sound.

        • garibaldi

          You are correct crashcart, it is purely a metaphor and I have seen it used several times.
          I am disappointed at the amount of vitriol being directed at Gareth. It was only a week ago we Greens were on the receiving end of vitriol which we felt wasn’t deserved.
          Gareth’s point is valid and it is why I still back the Greens…… better policies and better candidates.

          • In Vino

            It is a metaphor that could have been safely used against John Key. The problem is that women use lipstick, and many will see this as an attack upon Jacinda – calling her a pig.
            It was either Gareth being outspoken and rather thoughtless, or Gareth thinking that any publicity is good publicity, and pushing himself into primelight while being able to claim innocent intentions. Either way, I see it as a faux pas.
            Gareth has a long way to go in some ways.

            • mikesh

              The comment was actually too hacknied to have any real punch. And in fact the ´pig´ in question was the Labour Party. Jacinda understood this and that is why she was not offended by it.

            • In Vino

              That last message was nearly 4 hours ago. I have gone back and looked at the 2 posts + threads on sexist Morgan, and I can scarcely believe how many people are furious that Morgan has made such a supposedly overt sexist attack. (Of course, it may be faux outrage…)
              Well, I hope Morgan is learning something. Like emotion beats logic, and it does not pay to push the wrong buttons.
              As he appears to have done.

        • Andrea

          That sounds about right.

          The comment wasn’t about Ms Ardern: it was about the fractious and factious fellowship of the parliamentary Labour Party. ABCs never die – they just go dormant.

          If the Labour Party wants to play ‘Whack a Mole’ – they need to do it in their own time before, LONG before, they front up to the electorate. Their prime person shouldn’t be toeing her dissidents into line. There should be no dissidents or loose mouths and poor judgement. Not at this stage of the game.

          Have they changed their spots? That’s what we need to know. Because the last time they promised repentance and reform they pulled the chain on most of us before giving up on the unfinished business around resetting the economy to work for all.

          And the ‘promises’ of now? The usual ‘please the overalls and contractors’ stuff. Typical traditional and sexist tosh. Back to the 60s and 70s. Don’t go there!

          If they don’t like the ‘lipstick’ notion – how about ‘papering over the cracks and gaping holes’?

    • Paaparakauta 1.4

      Brexit is the backlash of the old regime. For us it is Bill.

    • Tamati Tautuhi 1.5

      The hair lipped weasel really put his foot in his mouth this time ?

    • eco Maori/kiwi 1.6

      Thanks but I think someone else is pissing in the wind

  2. eco maori 2

    If Maori votes were caste in the general ballet box there would be at least 10 seats swing to the left so all the voters who vote left have being ripped off this is one of the main reasons that National has stayed in power John Key Winston and Gareth no this fact Apirana Ngata opposed the seats Its not rocket science.

    We are all saying why are there 900 fraud cases sitting there and no one is pursuing these cases one of the main reason that the Police wont pursue these cases is it would COST to much to prosecute these cases’

    Why are the jails so full our NZ western based criminal laws are a farce, How the law works now confidential wittiness can be paid a bribe and given a get out of jail free card
    to help the Police convict there targeted person whom is always poor. The Police have all the best electronic surveillance tools in the world at there disposal And when they convince a judge to give them a warrant to arrest that targeted person . The Police will say to that person that if you don’t plead guilty to our charges against you we will not grant you bail if you plead guilty we will go easy on you . And don’t be fooled that the local legal aid lawyer has your best interest at hart because he is most likely having
    tea and biscuits with your arresting officer after work. The bail laws have been changed to so the police can use them to get convictions. If one has family in the justice system, the police will apply huge presser tell them lies bribe them give them money let them off charges all to get there TARGET that is why the jails are so full one always picks the low hanging fruit first

    • The Fairy Godmother 2.1

      Um you do realise we have mmp. This means if national gets 10 more electorate seats than it should the proportionality is not disturbed and Labour would get some more list seats. This was a big problem before mmp and indeed in 1978 and 1981 Labour got more overall votes than National but National got the most seats and governed. This was one of the reasons the support for mmp was so strong. In America a similar thing has happened with their weird ffp system with Trump getting less votes than Clinton.

    • The Māori seats are for Māori and therefore of benefit to everyone here. The temptation is to move back to the general roll for me but I’m not going to. I, and many others, believe in the value of the Māori roll – at the least it is an in your face reminder to the public of the Treaty, the 2 partners and the promises not kept by the crown.

      • JanM 2.2.1

        I (as a Pakeha) value the Maori seats and think they need to stay. However, it took me a while when I moved up to Northland to realise that the probable reason why the ordinary seats were so conservative in such a neglected community is because of the high numbers on the Maori roll.
        My knowledge is not sufficient to work out what impact this has overall, but MMP would certainly have a positive effect, as The Fairy Godmother, says

        • Dspare

          eco maori
          “If Maori votes were caste in the general ballet box there would be at least 10 seats swing to the left “; why? Would not some Māori vote for National (or even ACT if they lived in Epsom)? Labour took the Māori seats for granted for so long until the Seabed & Foreshore confiscations, that it is hard to see why they they should expect Māori votes to be theirs by right.

          As marty mars says, there is always (periodically) the option of moving; “back to the general roll”.

    • eco Maori/kiwi 2.3

      you people dont get the big picture do the math the right have pulled the wool over our eyes long enough come on

    • eco Maori/kiwi 2.4

      The justices system are pissed off that I am putting this information out to the public .
      That is why there is no information on the law system in NZ on the net they can not let all the sheep no that there system is a Sham.

      It is good that this site is safe. even the Maori lawyers wont disclose this information or Maori cops why because they will get there ass kicked and they no that it is very closed and a secret society can not all the people no what goes on behind closed door of the Justice system now all you young ones stay out of trouble and DONT GET ANY CRIMINAL CHARGES IF YOU DO YOUR ASS IS FUCKED

  3. Carolyn_nth 3

    Whoa! Just started watching Paula Penfold’s documentary on NZ’s involvement in Afghanistan. Looks pretty compelling. Up on STuff website this morning.

    Also starring Wayne Mapp, Keith Locke and many others.

  4. Cinny 4

    Have been rather impressed with Jack Tames knowledge and interviewing skills on a Monday morning when asking questions of the PM.

    Well done Jack for knowing your stuff when questioning Bill about his ongoing neglect to climate change.

    Will post the interview if and when it comes online

  5. Ad 5

    Looks like Labour are preparing some more rail and regional road announcements today.

    • indiana 5.1

      As long as there no stupid caveat like “NZ Companies must have first right of refusal”, happy if the caveat is “NZ jobs must be created”

  6. Bearded Git 6

    Barry Soper doing his best here to drive a wedge between Labour and the Greens and destroy the MOU. Especially:

    “…Ardern’s now begun eating The Greens’ lunch, zeroing in on poverty and on climate change which she described as the nuclear free moment of her generation.”

    This argument simply makes no sense-if someone is voting on the basis of climate change why would you vote for the pale green version when you can vote for the real thing? the Greens have by far the best track record on CC; Labour is trying to catch up.

    It’s here:


    • Bearded Git 6.1

      Hooton on RNZ right now is telling all Green voters to vote Labour-that is the only way to get a Left wing government.

      All Standardistas should be well aware by now that when Hooton tells you to do something you should do the opposite.

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 6.1.1

        He is also suggesting that there is a mood for a change, that National will lose, perhaps to get those intending to vote for NZ First to swing to National to save the day. Tricksy.

  7. roy cartland 7

    Anyone listening to Hooton on RNZ?! Whoever it was that predicted that he’d be hysterically panicking and trying to destroy the Greens and throw his money on Labour was dead right.
    “A vote for the Greens is a vote for a National 4th term.”

    He’s freaking.

    • weka 7.1

      was that the old ‘the Greens will do a deal with National’, or the new ‘if the Greens get less than 5% those MP shares will go to National’?

      • roy cartland 7.1.1

        More along the “Green is a wasted vote” line. Thinks that Labour is actively and unashamedly out to destroy any competition on the left.

        • weka

          Ta (saved me having to listen). Yeah, it does seem to be the latest spin line. I agree they must be worried. JA is thus far untouchable, although I’m sure they’re madly digging for dirt there and doing micro focus groups to see if there is anything to undermine her not matter how trivial. So if Labour get in the last thing they will want is the Greens there too. Better to have Labour/NZF.

  8. Dspare 8

    As a followup to the Dunedin Hospital protest on the weekend, the ODT has this further information about how much National really care about improving healthcare:

    Busy ward staff had to wend their way through politicians, reporters, political staff, and Southern District Health Board staff and commissioners. The stress in the ward was palpable. A mother watching proceedings with two young children was contemptuous of journalists “lapping it up” while Mr English greeted patients. She told the children it was all an election ploy from National.

    A patient told Mr English of her concerns about the care given to another patient; DHB staff anxiously reassured reporters that all was well, and there had been a misunderstanding.


    Sometimes PR stunts just don’t go to plan. For example, this; from later in the day, shows how the people herders in National tshirts sometimes let inconvenient citizens through to within speaking distance of their leader:


  9. UncookedSelachimorpha 9

    Encouraging “poll of polls” reported on RNZ – looks like this useless NAct government might get kicked to the kerb, and not a moment too soon.


  10. Carolyn_nth 10

    Peter Dunne – Gone! Not seeking re-election


    • marty mars 10.1

      Yep good. And i have to say kudos to him for doing it this way – he’s outlasted just about everyone and that is something.

    • Ad 10.2

      Too late – O’Connor already has all the momentum to win.

      • Muttonbird 10.2.1

        Do you mean Steven Joyce told Dunne he has to go in the hope the Nat candidate wins?

        What a complicated dirty deal that is.

        Perhaps the Nats internal polling has told them that electorate wins are now very important as their party vote slides???

        • Dspare

          Last election’s split voting shows that Dunne got 59% of the National party voters’ electoral vote, compared to the Hudson’s (National candidate then and now) 29%. The party vote was 18,810 National to Labour’s 8,771.


          I’d say that O’Connor is now facing a real uphill battle in Ōhāriu, and at 41 on the Labour list is unlikely to get in that way.

        • Wayne

          Nothing National could say would have influenced Peter Dunne. He would have made his own decision. At lest he is owed that.
          Politics is not as cynical as you suggest.

          • Muttonbird

            But Peter Dunne spent a career being influenced by other people. That’s what centrists do, wring hands and wait for direction.

            And as for ‘politics (not being) as cynical as you suggest’, I can’t believe I just read that.

            You will at least agree that as the party vote drops, electorate wins become more important?

    • Muttonbird 10.3

      Bye, loser.


      Hope he does the right thing and endorses O’Conner.

    • Cinny 10.4

      What an election. Bye bye Dunne.

      • Carolyn_nth 10.4.1

        Beginning to look like the clearing of the decks. It’s now a question of who will be left standing after the election?

        Seymour there’s a calling card with your name on it!

    • millsy 10.5

      Retired not out, just as he was about to lose his wicket.

      Cant say I am sorry to see him go. His and his party’s strong performance at in the 2002 wrecked any hope of any left wing policies of notable substance being enacted during Lab5 term (WFF and interest free loans essenitally treating symptoms)

    • swordfish 10.6

      Colmar Brunton Ōhāriu Poll

      Greg O’Connor 48%

      United Future
      Peter Dunne 34%

      Brett Hudson 14%

      34 + 14 = 48%

      (Not that I think Dunne’s remaining vote will go entirely to Hudson, mind you – but (despite O’Connor’s momentum) could tighten things up just a tad)

      Pressure on the bow-tie Dandy from Nats ? (to save seat)

  11. Robert Guyton 11

    Puff of smoke!

  12. Carolyn_nth 13

    Greens pledge free public transport for under 19 year olds!


    A “Green Card” would be created, which would also provide free, off-peak travel for tertiary students and those doing apprenticeships.

    Under the policy all people with a disability on a supported living benefit would also be eligible for free public transport.

    The Greens said the policy would cost between $70 and 80 million a year and would come out of the Land Transport Fund.

    • greywarshark 13.1

      It would be really nice if DPBs could also have a go with free. Not only are they poor they also have children to care for, who must go everywhere they go if a reliable babysitter isn’t around.

      But they must be considered last or not at all, poor parents are not trying to get ahead are they, and the miracle of life and humanity is just so everyday and trite.

      When single parents do try to get ahead, also caring for their baby, we have seen how our ‘miss-ogynistic’ country behaves. It doesn’t behove a modern, humanitarian country to behave like that. Very Dickensian and coldly discriminating and self-oriented. Very backward and steeped in a stiff-necked class-oriented past.

    • Dspare 13.2

      That is interesting, considering that Bradbury posted this a couple of weeks back:

      The poor and the young are the ones who are hardest hit by transport costs, if the Greens promised a Green Card that gave free bus and train transport (not Ferry’s because that’s just a rort) it would perfectly connect with their environmental credentials as well as their new staunch stand with beneficiaries…

      The huge chunk of none voting beneficiaries who make up the missing million already have strong reasons to vote Green for the $180 per week increase in benefits, adding free public transport would be the icing on the cake. Launching a Green Card would also inoculate the Greens from the move to free tertiary education that Labour are looking at.


      It seems most likely that he was leaked some policy in progress to see how it went over (it got a substantial number of generally favourable comments). Rather than the GP being so lost for ideas that they are now taking advice from Bradbury (I like his writing, but more for the flashy turns of phrase, than rigorously considered analysis)

    • Peter 13.3

      “Greens pledge free public transport for under 19 year olds!”

      There is no such thing as ‘free’.

      All ‘free’ means is that someone else, somewhere else, is paying – In this case the taxpayer/ratepayer.

      There may well be a sound reason for allowing some services to be low cost or no cost to the end user, but those reasons should be rationally presented, and not tainted or misrepresented by the wrongful use of the emotive word ‘free’.

      • McFlock 13.3.1

        but then the “taxpayer” also gets the benefit of less traffic on the roads as people increase the use of public transport, and so might be able to defer roadbuilding costs. So is the impact on your wallet positive or negative?

        All we know for sure is that for green card recipients, transport will be free.

  13. Herodotus 14

    If our economy is as successful as we are told by our government, then why is there the need for this announcement “National extends $18 doctor visits to 600,000 more Kiwis”
    This along with the recent announcements regarding increasing WFF and Accommodation supplements ?
    Should not a successful economy with good wage increases mean that the need for these announcements of corporate welfare not be needed?
    Should not in a healthy economy govt assistance diminish, if not under current economic conditions, I ask when????

  14. Muttonbird 15

    Nat machine continuing to try frame Bill as an ordinary battler, ‘one of us’ with real world problems.


    • Reality 15.1

      Won’t be watching The Project to hear about Bill’s acne! Who is his PR person thinking he will cut it with the teenagers I suppose. Cringe time.

    • mary_a 15.2

      @ Muttonbird (15) … Jesus really?

      Natz must really be packing itself now, if PM Bill English’s problems with acne have become the topic of conversation, during an electoral campaign … eee yuk!

      In another desperate move, next to identify with ordinary Kiwis, which Natz MPs will out themselves as having suffered from haemorrhoids, scabies, impetigo, halitosis, infected ingrown toenails, worms or chronic flatulence at some stage of their insignificant life cycle?

      Gripping edge of seat stuff coming up perhaps … ?

      • Muttonbird 15.2.1

        It’s across a few news sites. Were they thinking this would be a foil to Ardern’s cool girl image? I hope not because all the electorate will be thinking about is Bingles’ acne.

        But then perhaps he was trying to distract from Peter Dunne’s cowardly resignation today.

  15. Stephen Doyle 16

    With the polls consistently trending down for National, at what point will they panic and drop Bill. Or will they all go down with him?
    Their problem seems to be no ready made replacement. Paula is being kept off TV,
    Stephen is a PR disaster waiting to happen, Simon too thick, which leaves Amy or Judith.
    Buy popcorn!

  16. adam 17

    If you have a spare 6 minutes you will get a few laughs from this.

    If you don’t the best line is the last line. They legalised pot, this forced all the drug dealers out of the game, so now kids can’t get their hands on it.

    Something I’ve been saying for years. If pot is illegal because you want to protect the children, then that is not working. Gangs will sell to anyone, including 5 year old’s, if they have the cash.

  17. jcuknz 18

    If anybody is seriously interested in a Water Tax I think they should read this
    It is a bit long but worth reading the whole thing or you could pick it up elsewhere if KB is agin your principles.

    • Pat 18.1

      you will note your article is written by an arable farmer….many of who whose land has been bought and converted to dairy in the past 20 years and a 2012 Lincoln Uni study suggested land used for dairy in Canterbury was expected to double within the next 20 years after increasing from 20,000h to 190,000h over the previous 20..
      “Conversion of arable and mixed-arable farms to dairy is a threat to the industry through reduced economies of scale and loss of infrastructure. The development of large community irrigation schemes has facilitated dairy conversions, particularly in Canterbury. Nutrient loss limits, proposed by many regional councils, suggest that nutrient management is likely to become a challenging issue for many arable farmers, particularly those growing winter vegetables and forage crops for winter grazing of dairy cattle.”

      Click to access 1_8_Millner.pdf

    • One Anonymous Bloke 18.2

      A right wing liar and a right wing beige liar? What could either of them say that anyone other than a complete dupe would take seriously?

      • Wayne 18.2.1


        Just because you don’t agree with them, there is no need to be so rude as to immediately call them a liar.

        Try some civility for a change.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          You’re quite right: I don’t agree with relentless dishonesty as a political strategy. I understand why you would have a problem with that.

          You really don’t get it do you: your dishonest politics disgust me. That’s how you liars look from here.

    • Muttonbird 18.3

      Ok, so the guy got upset because he was shown a few pictures of dirty rivers in NZ.

      He seems bewildered that a lot of Kiwis don’t agree with him that NZ is a wonderful place because what he sees in Ashburton recently means that everyone else must be enjoying the same benefits.

      What he doesn’t get is that those benefits have come at a well documented cost to the environment.

      He also doesn’t seem to have registered that the Labour policy allows for different land use and location so that those who are doing the damage will have to pay for the resource they use.

  18. rhinocrates 19

    From The Grauniad:

    Some things are easier to see from far away, and a collective slide away from empathy and common sense, towards pearl-clutching judgmentalism, is one of them. At the start of August the co-leader of New Zealand’s Green party, Metiria Turei, was forced to resign, following an outpouring of opprobrium that threatened to poleaxe her party’s prospects in September’s elections.

    Disagree – pretty easy to see from close up. Anyways…

    Simply by changing the frame, pointing attention towards the dishonest, the government managed to render whole swaths of normal social inquiry – what is life like for those at the bottom? – irrelevant. Ask not what life is like for those at the bottom; ask whether they really are at the bottom, or have a cash-in-hand window-cleaning job that puts them nearer the middle. Ask what mountain of fecklessness prevents their escape from the bottom.


    People still have a conception of decency that goes well beyond mere sustenance, and wish it for one another. All that remains is that we remember how to fight for it.


  19. Ad 20

    A vote compass specifically for this election – see if you confound your expected allegiances:


    • greywarshark 20.1

      That vote compass is quite useful for checking out whether you’re in the boat or paddling alongside.

      At the end it gives the Parties’ summarised lines on the different queries that have been posed. And looking at those allows you to see why the particular Party doesn’t seem to fit in the expected slot. They have ideas that are slightly different and put it in a different category.

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