Open mike 21/09/2011

56 comments on “Open mike 21/09/2011 ”

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1. Lazy Susan 1

   21 September 2011 at 6:41 am

   Even Granny is getting tired of Key’s jackboots.

   Labour would be wise to not support this bill and yet another abuse of urgency by National.
   • mickysavage 1.1

     21 September 2011 at 7:58 am

     Aye good editorial.

     The most appalling thing about the proposal is the retrospectively.  Courts are meant to be there so that citizens can argue their rights have been breached and if established for consequences to follow.  The Bill of Rights sets the standards that should be imposed.

     If every time a citizen successfully shows that his or her rights under the Bill of Rights have been breached Parliament then turns around and changes the law so that no one else can rely on the same rights then we may as well do away with the Courts.  Leave it all up to Key and the Police to decide guilt and innocence.  Imagine how efficient it would be and how much money would be saved! 

     Labour want the bill to go to a select committee.  They also opposed four particular provisions of the Search and Surveillance Bill.  National will obviously try and use this as a dog whistle.  But the principles are that appalling that Labour has to oppose this. 
     • KJT 1.1.1

       21 September 2011 at 10:32 am

       We are a passive lot. Our rights to privacy, and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, have been slowly frittered away by various Governments over the years. while rights to freedom from surveillance without cause have been taken away.

       The media have mostly been silent. When they haven’t been actively supporting it, using, mostly, specious excuses about cutting crime.

       The skynet bill and the new search and surveillance bill are unacceptable infringements on our rights to freedom from search and seizure.

       Already existing laws about survaillance and airport and port security also exceed the rights of search, of ordinary citizens, that authorities should have.
   • ianmac 1.2

     21 September 2011 at 9:15 am

     Well spotted Susan and a surprising tone for a Herald Editorial! Wow!
     • aerobubble 1.2.1

       21 September 2011 at 11:27 am

       My reading of the events is, Police had to drop the terrorist charges since
       no reasonable person would believe social activists were anything more.
       as we know, gangs, and terrorists seek lives of privacy, not public
       activism. And that’s why the so many of the charges have
       been dropped, because the evidence was not lawfully obtained,
       since I’m pretty sure you will find in every political gathering
       of left or right, some individuals making statements that are
       alarming. So how the government can conclude that any of
       these individiuals is guilty of anything, or that the case has any
       merit because the supreme court have rejected this part of
       the evidence, when there is likely to be much more that
       will come under scrutiny, and when all the evidence has been
       ‘discovered’ the court throw does not out the last few cases.

       Its just politics. National cannot promise there will be no apology,
       or that no compensation will be paid, all they can promise is
       no decision will be made before the election. And that’s
       why its so disturbing, that National would play politics with
       lawful minority political gatherings.
       • insider 1.2.1.1

         21 September 2011 at 1:55 pm

         Your reading is wrong. Police needed permission from the Solicitor General to lay charges under the TSA. He denied them because the TS Act wasn’t able to be used in the context, not that there wasn’t something dodgy going on or that a jury would not find the case reasonable.

         The SC has rejected the legality of the evidence gathering. They have accepted that that illegality though is outweighed by the seriousness of the charges for four people- so there is evidence that is deemed useful and legal. NZ is not an American TV show where people automatically escape serious charges for breach of procedure.
2. vto 2

   21 September 2011 at 7:42 am

   Is some journalist going to ask Michael Fay if he will end up doing to the Crafar farms what he did to NZ Rail? i.e. systematically pull all cash out of the business and doing no maintenance or upgrades whatsoever on the infrastructure, eventually turning the outfit into a piece of shit.

   Michael Fay is not a man to be trusted.
   • just saying 2.1

     21 September 2011 at 8:01 am

     The blood-sucker is back. God help NZanders from him and the likes of him.
     Just in time for the next round of privatisations next year, ready to make another killing.
     • aerobubble 2.1.1

       21 September 2011 at 11:09 am

       Are you saying that whoever owns the farms can expose them over time to
       foreign ownership? Because we’re been see that for some time as Carfer
       did just this, by borrowing excessively from overseas. Whose to say Fey
       won’t get the investment money from overseas!

       So the problem isn’t ownership, its just how easy it is to give money to
       kiwis who then invest it poorly (in housing and farm property bubbles).
       I don’t know, what we need is some form of tax to bring the free for
       all in capital farming to an end.

       A free for all that leave kiwis with borrowing from overseas as their
       only choice, which of course is not a choice.
   • marsman 2.2

     21 September 2011 at 8:52 am

     Thought I smelled a rat, I did, it was Michael Fay.
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 2.2.1

       21 September 2011 at 9:17 am

       So you guys want the Chinese to buy the farms, then?
       • grumpy 2.2.1.1

         21 September 2011 at 10:15 am

         Yeah, hard choice eh?
         • McFlock 2.2.1.1.1

           21 September 2011 at 1:31 pm

           Nah. Nationalise them.
       • insider 2.2.1.2

         21 September 2011 at 1:34 pm

         These are farms that failed under NZ ownership and management. If they can make them successful and pay 30mill more for them, why not? Should Fay get a sweet deal because of his passport? Maybe he’d be interested in a railway too…
         • Countersinker 2.2.1.2.1

           21 September 2011 at 3:02 pm

           To counter this, if the Chinese are paying $30M more for Crafer, why should NZ Rail pay more for NZ made carriages than Chinese ones?
           15% difference is ok in my eyes to keep the Chinese out.
         • mik e 2.2.1.2.2

           21 September 2011 at 7:12 pm

           Australian ownership the banks owned and allowed them to be badly managed
       • MrSmith 2.2.1.3

         21 September 2011 at 8:21 pm

         Maybe, Because if Sir Michel Fay had been Chinese then he probably would have been hung or imprisoned long ago.
   • ianmac 2.3

     21 September 2011 at 9:21 am

     Campbell Live interviewed him last night. (Good interview.) Fay vowed to not sell farm land. As his example the farm that he bought 40 years ago is still owned by him.
     But trust this man? Yeah right!
   • millsy 2.4

     21 September 2011 at 9:28 am

     Michael Fay or the Party of Public Assets (the direct Chinese wording for their communist party, I believe).

     Some choice. Pity the government cant buy them and create an agrarian version of Cal-Tech or MIT – or what about iwi – they have cash to burn. They might even make them the basis of a Maori owned milk processor to compete with Fonterra.
3. millsy 3

   21 September 2011 at 9:30 am

   Why am I on moderation?

   You dont seem to apply that to big bruv, who seems to be trolling away (I wonder if he ‘trolls’ on his employers internet. Ahh the irony).
   • grumpy 3.1

     21 September 2011 at 10:16 am

     Seems damn unfair to me Millsy…………………………………….
     • Ianupnorth 3.1.1

       21 September 2011 at 1:00 pm

       Does the word c0mmunist alert the spam filter?
   • Draco T Bastard 3.2

     21 September 2011 at 1:03 pm

     Moderation is automated. Some words cause you to be put into the moderation queue.
     • lprent 3.2.1

       21 September 2011 at 5:56 pm

       Yeah, the words that have been really good indicators of people indulging in bad behavior in the past. I add them there when I have to warn about behavior or ban based on comments that use those words. It simplifies my life because it catches the trolls that find themselves incapable of change to avoid a simple capture pattern.
4. Dave Kennedy 4

   21 September 2011 at 12:11 pm

   Reinstating passenger rail services between Dunedin and Invercargill makes sense for so many reasons.
   http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/09/reinstate-passenger-rail-services-to.html
   • Lanthanide 4.1

     21 September 2011 at 12:31 pm

     And between CHCH and Dunedin. They could’ve done a pilot for the RWC to see how it fared and whether it would be worth continuing as a standard service.
     • McFlock 4.1.1

       21 September 2011 at 1:34 pm

       Hell – I’d take one between dunedin and its airport!
5. freedom 5

   21 September 2011 at 12:30 pm

   I have been working quite long hours of late so my brain is a bit buggy, but could someone please explain what the hell this article is meant to convey ???
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/capital-life/cafe-scene/cafe-reviews/5659169/Don-Brash-ACT-Party-leader-at-Astoria-Wellington
   • Lanthanide 5.1

     21 September 2011 at 12:37 pm

     I like this bit:

     “I’m not a foodie in the sense that my wife is. My wife is a Singaporean, and Singaporeans tend to be real foodies.”

     [much later in the “article”]

     “My wife and I are currently separated.”

     He says it as if they’re going to get back together or still have some sort of relationship.
     • freedom 5.1.1

       21 September 2011 at 1:22 pm

       “I’m catholic in my tastes.” when discussing fast food is what really had me scratching my head !
       • insider 5.1.1.1

         21 September 2011 at 1:31 pm

         He likes take out communion wafers from Jezza Hut? Or a couple of loaves with his fishes and chips?
       • Vicky32 5.1.1.2

         22 September 2011 at 4:39 pm

         Small c catholic simply means universal, so in sense of tastes, eclectic! I am surprised that fact is not more well known… 🙂
         I remember my Mum explaining that to me when I was very confused after attending her Presbyterian church as a child, that the creed said the Presbyterian church was ‘catholic’…
   • Deadly_NZ 5.2

     21 September 2011 at 5:08 pm

     Hopefully that all the traveling is hell; and he’s gonna retire but no. It’s a fluff piece designed to attempt to make him seem to be almost human.
6. joe90 6

   21 September 2011 at 12:48 pm

   I Love Chile covers student protests over costs, profits, and the fairness of higher education in unpopular President Sebastian Pinera’s Chile.

   Also,The Big Picture: Student protests in Chile.
7. c.w. heenan 7

   21 September 2011 at 12:54 pm

   I’ve just read the article where it says there has been a $750,000 blowout in keys personal bodyguard budget. In response to questions from ONE News about why the Diplomatic Protection Squad is blowing its budget, Key said: “Trawl through the court reports about how many people are trying to kill me”. Is there anybody out there able to do that. I would love to know eaxactly how many. I suspect it is none and I would love to hear his response to that piece of information
8. Dave Kennedy 8

   21 September 2011 at 1:05 pm

   Russel Norman launched the Greens’ job creation plans today and demonstrated a clear difference between a National led future and a Green future. The Greens have practical, fully costed and government led initiatives, while National have a “stand back and let the market lead” approach. The Greens would like to retain national ownership and control over our resources and technological developments, while National is pursuing an open access approach to exploiting our resources. While the Greens will plant trees, National will mine lignite. The Greens plan for a low carbon future and National see coal and oil as the way to go.

   http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/09/creating-100000-jobs-for-new-zealanders.html
   • freedom 8.1

     21 September 2011 at 1:27 pm

     and yet again the Stuff censor is hard at work. I know several people who submitted comments between 10 am and 11 am yet those comments are nowhere to be seen.
     • Brett Dale 8.1.1

       21 September 2011 at 2:38 pm

       Not as bad as what doesnt get censored here, or what one poster at the hand mirror (great blog by the way) does.
       • lprent 8.1.1.1

         21 September 2011 at 5:45 pm

         I guess that even after all of this time you still don’t understand what the moderators are trying to achieve here.

         Generally we don’t care much about language, political opinions, and most opinions. It isn’t the purpose of this site to provide a nice safe environment. It is a place to argue robustly and you’d better be prepared to argue your corner robustly if you want to have an opinion here.

         We do care about behavior onsite, and specifically about behaviors that bore the crap out of people and divert discussions into meaningless babble or flame wars. This is because we find that this is what keeps people away from online forums like this.

         If you want someone to protect you the evil languages and ideas of that nasty world outside, then this isn’t the right place. In fact I suspect that crawling back into the womb would be the best option…

         Stuff of course have a significantly different imperative – not getting sued. Unlike us they have a site that is a lot harder to move outside of legal jurisdictional bounds if required and they have enough money that it becomes worth while suing them.
9. Herodotus 9

   21 September 2011 at 1:13 pm

   I see a regular contributor to this site has yet again been published in the “Granny” 😉
10. Gravedodger 10

    21 September 2011 at 1:39 pm

    An interesting Q&A from Erin Leigh on Farrar’s Kiwiblog.
    Very revealing as to the helpless position a public servant can find themselves in when a Minister of the Crown chooses to slander them under the protection of Parliamentary Priviledge, and they are left defensless and exposed by those who should at least give them basic employment, emotional and what most would see as a safe workplace environment, support.
    • SHG 10.1

      22 September 2011 at 4:51 pm

      The character-assassination of Erin Leigh by the Labour Party is one of the things that decided me against voting for Labour at the last election.
11. freedom 11

    21 September 2011 at 2:57 pm

    here is a [really long] link for ongoing reports from Occupy Wall St including a live stream when it is up.
    As well as the MSM silence, the Police stopping resupply of food and water, the ongoing Net service difficulties and the selective cellular disruption that is ongoing, Yahoo has been discovered to be censoring its news contributors. SO nothing to see hear then.

    http://wearechangetv.us/wp-content/plugins/wordpress-toolbar/toolbar.php?wptbto=http%3A%2F%2Fanonymous-worldwide.blogspot.com%2F&wptbhash=aHR0cDovL3dlYXJlY2hhbmdldHYudXMvMjAxMS8wOS9pbnRlcm5ldC1zaHV0LW9mZi1hdC13YWxsLXN0cmVldC1wcm90ZXN0Lzx3cHRiPkludGVybmV0IHNodXQgb2ZmIGF0IFdhbGwgU3RyZWV0IHByb3Rlc3QsIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIGFnZW5kYT88d3B0Yj5odHRwOi8vd2VhcmVjaGFuZ2V0di51czx3cHRiPldlQXJlQ2hhbmdlVFYuVVM%3D
    • Brett Dale 11.1

      21 September 2011 at 3:30 pm

      MSM silence?????, this was reported by all the major networks in the states, despite only 150 people showing up.
12. Jum 12

    21 September 2011 at 3:42 pm

    ‘But as one wit put it, recalling 1951: “A National Government taking control of the waterfront in election year. Worked for them in the past.” ‘

    We need a mock up photo of John Key and Sid Holland lookalike.

    It seems the voters of the day were happy to blame workers for wanting a decent wage in 1951. It looks like the same will happen this time.

    I have seen a recent photo of John Key looking up into the mist and I have seen more than enough photos of Sid Holland when he closed down the media so that voices could not be equally heard, to recognise the similarities both in looks and in actions.

    Be vigilant after the rugby world cup; you think it is bad now for the left leaning voices to be heard; you aint seen nothin’ yet..

    What else, ummm, advertisements. They’ll be a doozy.

    We have the blue movember and the promisekeepers in town soon to tell us how wicked women are that men must lead them into the kitchen and out of equality. Have we had the blue prostate checkups yet?

    Not a skerrick will be paid by National for what is obviously a campaign ‘vote for Key’ advertisement.

    Look carefully at the ads in the next month or so. If you think there is a conflict of interest there and that Key’s party should have to pay for ‘obvious favouritism at no cost’ just like Peter Leitch recently, then complain to the Broadcasting Authority.

    This year is pivotal if we are to retain our autonomy as a country. This is no time for greed and selfishness.
    • higherstandard 12.1

      21 September 2011 at 4:02 pm

      “Look carefully at the ads in the next month or so. If you think there is a conflict of interest there and that Key’s party should have to pay for ‘obvious favouritism at no cost’ just like Peter Leitch recently, then complain to the Broadcasting Authority.”

      What a bitter little person you are Millsy.
      • Jum 12.1.1

        21 September 2011 at 9:42 pm

        higherstandard,

        It’s Jum here. Get your names right. I’m certainly not bitter when it comes to the disgrace that is National these days. They have no credibility and their supporters surely must be ashamed to show their faces. Bitterness no; on the button yes.

        Read The Hollow Men. Steps 1 – 10 about how to manipulate the New Zealand voter; you’ll be pleased to know they’re falling for it because they are still trusting. I have no idea why. I really thought Roger Douglas, aligned with the master mask, JKeyll, would make people do their homework on the past lies of NActU, but no.

        The only reason you’re attacking is because you know I’m correct. You pondscum have no sense of ethical behaviour, no principles; only greed.

        Your party behaviour disgusts me.
        • higherstandard 12.1.1.1

          22 September 2011 at 7:04 am

          Dear oh dear Jum

          You’re are a bitter wee thing and you’ll give yourself an ulcer. For the record the nat’s are not my party – I’m not a tribal thing like yourself which allows me a bit more perspective to see that there is fuck all difference between labour and national
          • Jum 12.1.1.1.1

            22 September 2011 at 9:20 am

            Thank you higherstandard for these little bits that help me place you.

            No, I’m not bitter, really. This is interesting to me – the fact that New Zealanders fall all over themselves for the John Key roadshow, yet ask no questions of him. These are parents with children and grandchildren that will enter the job market as ‘flexible’ labour. Flexible i.e. casualized labour is the way to get an ulcer – no mortgage security when the job might end at any time.

            So I’m probably disappointed in New Zealanders, in general, especially those that insist on telling us that Labour and National are the same, when the Labour policies and the National no-policies, except sell everything and give it to the rich which the Act Roger Douglas and the Nat Ruth Richardson and now the NAct Bill English always do.

            The difference between the two parties is that Labour/Greens actually think about the future. All the NActs think about is how to increase their personal money supply from exploiting cheap labour. If you can’t see the difference higherstandard, then you need to change your name.

            Maybe you’re an Act acolyte? Trying to play the ‘same as’ game and damage Labour’s different and futuristic policies would certainly point you in that direction. If that is the case, and looking at the current Act lineup, I would have to say that you have no standards at all.
13. Jum 13

    21 September 2011 at 3:51 pm

    Key and Co will offer greed and selfishness; we must look beyond that greed and selfishness and analyse the losses to us as a country and as a people.
14. thejackal 14

    21 September 2011 at 7:20 pm

    The RWNJ’s Freakout!

    The Greens launched their fantastic Green Jobs policy today. It’s a well thought out and progressive plan to move New Zealand forward into a clean and productive future…
    • Jim Nald 14.1

      21 September 2011 at 7:40 pm

      John Key should stick to keeping jobs going for currency traders.
      • Jum 14.1.1

        21 September 2011 at 9:47 pm

        Jim Nald,

        And if all turns to custard for National, Key will make another speculative run on the NZ dollar, just like he did before – no loyalty, no conscience.
15. Puddleglum 15

    21 September 2011 at 10:17 pm

    Winston has put himself into the Christchurch mix.

    And he used the ‘c word’ – twice. 
16. rosy 16

    22 September 2011 at 12:30 am

    A juxtaposition of positions – Same newspaper, same day, same topic – health sector pay
    The first is from an at times quite moving article about Philip Gould , one of the architects of New Labour, who has terminal cancer:

    The illness has changed him in so many ways, he says. Not least politically. The story of Philip Gould’s cancer could be a parable. Here was the archetypal moderniser who had so lost faith in traditional Labour values that he took the private healthcare route. A surgeon in America told him he did not need the extreme surgery that the NHS had suggested. Gould took his advice and the cancer came back. By the time he returned to the NHS, it was too late. He’s painfully aware of the ironies. “When I came back I began to realise that NHS facilities, particularly for this cancer, were fantastic. Now I wouldn’t go to a private hospital. I have completely changed my view.”

    Has cancer changed his political position? “Oh yes. Certainly. No question.” He’s more old Labour? “Old Labour? It has certainly made me more aware … yes, it’s made me more leftwing is the answer. It has made me realise the importance of public service and community. The other thing that has moved me is being in intensive care, which is really tough for the nurses. I don’t know what they get, £35,000 a year? [The highest pay-grade is £34,189.] They do 12-hour shifts on one patient who is seriously ill and then they start talking about Wayne Rooney or whatever, and you realise with that level of inequality it’s impossible to continue to get people to do these jobs because these jobs are based on the sense within society that there is some fairness about the level of contribution and the level of reward and that has broken down. So that changed me.”

    The second on pay restraint in the NHS, and what looks to be imminent industrial action:

    NHS staff, most of whom are experiencing a two-year freeze on their pay, are furious that ministers are seeking to compel them to work longer and contribute more for ultimately smaller pensions. Unions such as Unison, Unite and the GMB have pledged to ballot their members, although the British Medical Association, Royal College of Nursing and Royal College of Midwives are reluctant to do so.

    But the organisation NHS Employers has increased the prospect of another money wrangle by declaring that the NHS salary bill is unsustainable and that local pay deals are needed to bring down costs. It claims that, despite the pay freeze for all NHS staff earning over £21,000, the cost to its members – such as hospital and mental health trusts – of employing staff is rising by 2.4% a year.

    And there, in a nutshell, is the problem with consumerist, corporatist track we’re on IMO… I’m unable to see any possibility of valuing the essentials of life and society within the current economic and political system.
    • Vicky32 16.1

      22 September 2011 at 4:50 pm

      NHS staff, most of whom are experiencing a two-year freeze on their pay…

      My son is a staff nurse at Welly Hospital, and a good 50%  of his colleagues, nurses and residents are British – they’re refugees from the NHS! He wanted to go work in Britain in 2011 or 2012, but luckily, they have dissuaded him from making what would have been a big mistake.

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