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Open mike 21/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:35 am, October 21st, 2014 - 150 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

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150 comments on “Open mike 21/10/2014”

  1. r0b 1

    I posted this in the wrong Open Mike yesterday – so note that David Parker dropped back in to his Q&A post for some final comments at 40.1

    • i asked parker this:

      “..could you please detail/specify for us what you would do in your first one hundred days as prime minister..

      ..to address the open sores of poverty and inequality…

      ..what will you do for the poorest..?


      David Parker 2.1
      19 October 2014 at 2:44 pm

      Issues that I believe we urgently need to address include affordable housing. We’d kick off with building more homes, and enforcing a healthy homes warrant of fitness.

      We need to lift incomes. By the time of the next election, I want people when they hear “Labour” to think higher wages. Wages lifted immediately for the lower paid via minimum wage. Wage increases for others via better labour laws and a strongr economy investing in productive jobs rather than speculation.

      Incomes for the poorest families need the likes of the Best Start package. Shamefully, the Nats equivalent deliberately excludes kids in beneficiary’s homes..”

      you will note that the question is only addressed in the final couple of lines..

      ..where the best start for newborns is mentioned..but that is it..eh..?

      ..but it is the final line that has been doing my head in..

      ..seeing as parker was part of the labour govt that ‘excluded’ the poorest families from ‘working for (some) families’…him accusing national of ‘exclusion’ is beyond fucken black-irony..

      ..but wait..there’s more..!..parker is on record as attempting to blame the 2011 policy of including the poorest families in ‘w.f.(s).f.by 2018..(!)..(seven yrs/two elections after 2011)..

      ..as a major reason for labour losing that election..

      ..(and therefor reason to ditch that ‘future’-promise..)

      ..so 2014 didn’t even have that..all parker/labour 2014 offered to do for the poorest families was s.f.a…

      ..(which left us with once again..the beyond black-irony situation of the far-right conservative party..with their first 20 grand tax free policy..

      ..actually offering more to those most in need..than the labour party..

      ..which i repeat…was offering s.f.a…

      ..it is clear from parkers’ non-answer to my straightforward question..that his answer to my question should have been short and sharp:..

      ..’we will do s.f.a for the poorest families’..

      ..because that is what his answer actually said..

      • The Al1en 1.1.1

        “..’we will do s.f.a for the poorest families’….because that is what his answer actually said..”

        No he didn’t, he wrote

        Address include affordable housing.
        Build more homes.
        Healthy homes warrant of fitness.
        Wages lifted immediately for the lower paid via minimum wage.
        Wage increases for others via better labour laws and a stronger economy investing in productive jobs rather than speculation.
        Best Start package.

        • Lanthanide

          Thanks for spending the time to decipher phil’s dribble. I looked at it, thought he might possibly be saying something interesting this time, but couldn’t be bothered trying to read his mess.

          Turns out it was the usual mis-representation of reality (and English) that phil specialises in.

          • wekarawshark

            +1 to the first paragraph (didn’t look closely enough to know about the second).

          • phillip ure

            ad homs is pretty much all you’ve ever got there..eh lanth…?

            ..slim-pickings in the abilities-bag..there..eh..?

            • phillip ure

              and i/doncha love those people who have clearly read..

              ..and yet claim to have ‘not read’..

              ..yr fooling nobody..eh?

              ..not even yrslf really..eh..?

          • McFlock

            personally, I routinely skip anything by pu unless subsequent comments catch my eye in the scroll-down.

            And even then I still skip his intial unintelligible diatribes and simply flip through the tit-for-tats afterwards. Sometimes The Al1en can be quite funny, and pu is often Cartman-esque in his indestructible ego 🙂

            • wekarawshark

              Problem with that is reading so many comments out of context. Lately it means scrolling through most of some threads, esp OM.

              • McFlock

                I’ve found that once it gets over a couple of hundred comments, I have to skip much of a thread. Filtering out the whackos and known tory-lying-swine (unless I feel like a joust) tends to reduce the larger threads’ content into a couple of interesting discussions between about a dozen commenters.

            • phillip ure


              ..the removal of capital letters..throws you into a total tail-spin..eh..?

              ..have you always had difficulties/issues with change..?

              ..u do know that language evolves..eh..?..

              ..(remember how until recently most here wrote in blocks of words..?..like bricks..?..doesn’t that look strange now..eh..?)

              ..scary..!..i know..but..y’know..!..don’t be too scared there..flocky.

              ..nothing really to be scared of..eh..?…

              ..(and you left yr ‘sniff!’ of disdain out of yr comment..where wd u like me to insert it..?..)

              • McFlock

                see, that sort of shit is too garbled to bother reading. The first sentence was at least in context, but the change bit was just random. So I stopeed reading.

                Much of it is the visual composition, but there’s also a strong indication that what actually gets written is only a portion of the content that he reads off the backs of his eyelids. There might be a well-developed link between not bothering to read his deliberately uncommunicative scrawl (A) and a general aversion to change (Z), but he never bothered to link A to Z. The result feels a bit like trying to read heiroglyphs that have been eroded and fractured over time.

                And it’s not like sitting down and focusing intently on the content has revealed any great insight to be cherished, so I tend to think “why bother?”. I put as much effort into understanding his comments as he puts into making them understandable.

                • a very ‘literal person r u there..?..flocky..?

                  ..a tad ‘rigid’ in yr ways..?

                  ..over-neat lawns..?..that kinda thing..?

                  ..this is what people who know wd say of you..?

                  • McFlock

                    lol. Indeed, guffaw (but metaphorically so, because I’m at the office).

                    I think I can safely say “no” to that description, especially anyone who’s seen my hovel.

                    I do like polished shoes, but that is merely because I like shiny things. And you, phil, are most certainly not shiny.

                    • i’m so ‘shiny’ u’d need shades..

                      (and ‘well done there!’ for getting thru that comment..!..)

                    • McFlock

                      I had already suspected that your desire for obscurity from other’s eyes is merely a dramatic overcompensation for (what you believe to be) your brilliance.

                    • @ flocky..

                      ..have you been talking to my therapist..?

                      ..and/but hardly..”..your desire for obscurity from other’s eyes..”

                      ..very soon i’m kicking off a daily vid-blog news-bulletin..

                      ..where i intend to indiscriminately rip the shit out of all concerned..

                      ..it’s time to get fucken angry..

                      ..and my persona will be decidedly ‘grumpy’…

                      ..(and i’ll try to limit the subtitles/written word..in consideration of those such as you..)

            • phillip ure

              @ flocky..


              ..i’m not one in these environs who demands others…

              ..’respect my authority!’…

              .am i..?

            • The Al1en

              Lanthanide, Weka and McFlock 😆

              I don’t reply half as much as I could, which considering the amount of rubbish posted already is probably a good thing. The fact that Philip’s opinions rants and musings are mostly ignored and not debated is telling, proving just because you shout the loudest doesn’t mean you’re being heard.
              And believing the quality over quantity rule I self moderate. I don’t always get it right, but sometimes seeing the worst has merit, like so you know the good stuff when/if it comes.
              So never say never and write pu off, ’cause just like living in nat NZ, there’s always hope even in the darkest places.

              • wekarawshark

                I don’t think his comments are mostly ignored/not debated, which is why OM in particular is strewn with his conversations with other people.

                • The Al1en

                  Maybe I should have written the comments ‘don’t find wide acceptance and consensus’ instead of ignored seeing it’s what I meant.

                  And Sir Spamalot (Can’t strikethrough the text) Sir Quornalot doesn’t really debate, it’s more smear and resist alternative views at all cost, and yes, there’s plenty of that.

  2. Dont worry. Be happy 3

    Medical Officer of Health Canterbury on Nat Rad this morning. New upper levels for nitrates in ground water in Selwyn District are too close to maximum safe levels for drinking water. Nitrates, from intensification of dairying, take a long time to accumulate and to reduce. Intensification has been rapid and will continue to be rapid.

    It is our tragedy as a society that those he seeks to warn understand only money.

    • grumpy 3.1

      Just had my nitrate levels back from the first aquifer monitoring bore. They were so low that ECAN did a second test – which confirmed the very low reading.

      • greywarshark 3.1.1

        @ grumpy 10.06 am
        Are your nitrate levels relevant to the previous comment? If so it’s nice to hear.
        What is your situation, have you been doing riparian planting? What is your situation, high up river or down the bottom? If you aren’t in the area of the comment where are you, and why is it good to hear for you?

  3. this is john olivers’ latest offering..

    ..and it had me laughing far too hard for so early in the morn..


    • adam 4.1

      I have tears running down my face – Thanks philip ure for the link that was truly the funnest thing I have seen in a long time.

  4. les 5

    News this morning that a submarine has been spotted in Swedish waters.A hazy image of a sub and speculation it is Soviet and a rerun of the Cold War is imminent.The Dutch have confirmed they have a sub operating in the area.The Mainstream media have become so tedious that its an ordeal to listen or read it these days.

    • Colonial Rawshark 5.1

      Must justify NATO bases crowding around Russian borders…must pretend to be surprised when Russia finds this prospect disagreeable.

  5. BM 6

    Andrew Little choosing his cat as his running mate was a stroke of genius.

    The leadership is in the bag.

  6. Colonial Rawshark 7

    Hi lprent just noticed the links to the graphs in your post about The Standard’s analytics seem to be broken. (For me anyway).

    The Standard’s last two months

    • lprent 7.1

      I was playing around with a different system for providing graphics system last night. It is probably just the image caching ‘refilling’ after I switched it back.

      Looks like they are there for me now. Try Ctrl + Refresh or Ctrl + F5 on that page to force a reload of everything.

  7. ianmac 8

    This sounds familiar. How many times have we heard that National is a good economic manager and Labour is rubbish? From the Guardian:

    “Why did Britain’s political class buy into the Tories’ economic fairytale?”

    The solution for Labour?
    “The country is in desperate need of a counter narrative that shifts the terms of debate. A government budget should be understood not just in terms of bookkeeping but also of demand management, national cohesion and productivity growth. Jobs and wages should not be seen simply as a matter of people being “worth” (or not) what they get, but of better utilising human potential and of providing decent and dignified livelihoods. Ways have to be found to generate economic growth based on rising productivity rather than the continuous blowing of asset bubbles.”

    • RedLogixFormes 8.1

      Linked nearby to that Guardian article is another closely related one:

      As Andy Haldane, chief economist at the Bank of England, noted in a speech last week, real wages (wages adjusted for inflation) have fallen by around 10% from their pre-recession peak. This represents a fall in living standards that is unprecedented since the middle of the 19th century.


      • Colonial Rawshark 8.1.1

        This is where the oligarchic elite are sending ‘western civilisation’ back to.

        • RedLogixFormes

          Or maybe it’s not the oligarchies fault as such. Maybe there is not so much a big conspiracy to cut living standards – as much as the simple reality that regardless of how many dollars they print, there are not the resources to redeem them. So maybe the rich are doing us all a favour by hoarding useless money that would only cause more harm if all of us ordinary people tried to spend it.

          That maybe the work most ordinary people do simply isn’t worth that much anymore, that either automation does it better or the total marginal utility of what we are doing is either zero or negative.

          That maybe falling living standards are simply a symptom of the fact that we have exceeded the capacity of the planet to carry us.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            I see the sense in what you are saying and there is an element of truth to it: the deliberate rationing of scarce resources where the 0.1% have no effective limits but the bottom 80% are highly constrained.

            Having said that however, a power elite acting to keep the class of commoners just slightly above the point of subsistence/starvation is not a new or novel tactic of social control.

            That maybe the work most ordinary people do simply isn’t worth that much anymore, that either automation does it better or the total marginal utility of what we are doing is either zero or negative.

            so automation does a job better and faster than workers can do, fine. However, that economic value is still be created – and instead of it going to help run society as a whole, it is being concentrated in the hands of a very few owners.

            • RedLogixFormes

              Sorry it does seem a bleak assessment.

              But what it does highlight is that there is no possibility of asking the 80% to live within the means of the planet – while the other 20% consume far more.

              And I think we are on much the same wavelength with automation and tech. I see enormous potential for low-energy, bio-mimicry tech to completely re-shape the economic world.

              For instance the PC I’m typing this on is an Intel i5 Quad Core NUC that has heaps of processing power – yet only draws about 2-3W most of the time. (Yeah the screen is the biggest power hog at about 20W). Technology does not always have to be a problem; it takes the shapes we want it to have.

              The old energy-hungry industrial systems will soon die out – and either humans rapidly transform their energy and resource consumption along with the social systems that distribute their capital , or we will start heading even more steeply down Greer’s Long Descent.

              It’s an enormous challenge. Greer thinks it’s unlikely we will meet it and it’s hard to argue with him. It’s a pattern we’ve repeated unthinkingly so many times in our past.

              Yet this time might be different; if only because so many of us can see it coming. That’s the crucial link in the chain – we have to stop discounting our future against our present consumption.

              Sometimes I think it would be a good idea to compel anyone who thinks of standing for public office, public service, or even C-level corporate jobs to go on a very long tramp. Six months of facing reality in the wilderness (or as near as we get it these days) might just trigger a change in values.

          • Ergo Robertina

            Inequality has not been good for the planet’s resources, it has involved greater depletion.
            Characterising inequality as effectively rationing the world’s resources (as CV does) is false, because goods and services are not priced to reflect their true cost because of the economic system of exploitation.
            If labour was priced properly, widgets would be made to last longer. Notice how planned obsolescence really picked up in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, just as jobs and capital moved to cheaper locations offshore?
            And there’s more tangential links; if people had more time, energy and money, they would eat less processed food. Processed food strains the environment, and increases demand on the health system.
            Another example could be the extremely cheap air travel around Europe.
            The Spirit Level had something to say about greater equality engendering more care for the environment, and less focus on status and consumption.

            • RedLogixFormes

              Characterising inequality as effectively rationing the world’s resources (as CV does) is false, because goods and services are not priced to reflect their true cost because of the economic system of exploitation.

              Do you mean exploitation of labour – or resources? In the next para you talk about labour, but the problem is that in planet of 7.5b people and automation – labour has become almost worthless.

              While resources are finite and increasingly scarce, money is really nothing more than a claim on future resources. Paying people more really does not solve that problem at all.

              The Spirit Level had something to say about greater equality engendering more care for the environment, and less focus on status and consumption.

              Which is an excellent point – but how many people have considered that equality may means all of us much more constrained lives than we in the rich countries are accustomed to?

              • Ergo Robertina

                You overstate automation. Labour is not ‘almost worthless’. If it was, why would Western manufacturers set up factories offshore? Wouldn’t it be easier to produce good at home, without the geopolitical risk of offshoring?
                A bigger factor than automation (so far, anyway) in wages and wealth concentration was the huge expansion in the worker pool caused by globalisation and lack of labour protection.

                • RedLogixFormes

                  As an automation engineer I’m probably more conscious of the impact of technology than most. Since 1980 technology has more than tripled labour productivity in most industries. When was the last time you saw a typing pool?

                  So far most of the jobs we have automated out of existence have been the repetitive or low-skilled tasks. But that is all about to change. The next wave will replace more than 98% of all jobs as we currently know them. Within a generation.

                  And yes the vast expansion of the exploitable labour pool globally has been important too. But we ain’t seen nothing yet.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    An economy which does not need workers, where vast profits and surplus are available only to a few. (For a little while).

                    Of course this model is already failing now, with Wal Mart and McDonalds in the US complaining that people are becoming too poor to buy their products.

                    Will it be an economy predicated on making and selling Maseratis and diamond encrusted iPhone cases?

                    • RedLogixFormes

                      Corporates are by their nature able to operate at a global scope, while democratic accountability (limited as it is) remains constrained to the nation state.

                      The NZLP could elect a cross between Karl Marx and Jesus Christ for a leader – and it would make no difference to the real challenges facing ordinary New Zealanders because all the big problems of the world are global in nature.

                      Yet ironically enough John Key’s govt. can slide along happily looking after the interests of the globalised corporates, and probably gets more done for that reason.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Tory economic infrastructure and scope of social networks is stunning.

                    • RedLogixFormes

                      So why are there no equivalent networks on the left? Where are our intellectual and social connections outside of this very small country?

                      Or did we somehow allow the Tories to define the boundaries of left-wing politics to be confined to the nation-state? While they themselves covertly took full advantage of the wealth, prestige and influence of a globalised, corporatised world?

                      Maybe living outside of NZ for a short while has changed my perspective somewhat.

                  • Ergo Robertina

                    There needs to be an honest discussion about the future of work, and the impact of automation on many jobs (although I don’t think it will wipe out more than 98% of all jobs as we currently know them).
                    But it’s your claim that wealth inequality (of which automation is one driver) may be beneficial because it helps to save the world’s resources that I find highly dubious.

              • greywarshark

                @Red Logix Formes 8.52pm
                Actually if people can have a different mindset on acquiring things, they would have an easier life, with more satisfaction, and a feeling of more freedom. Buying less would leave more to pay off their house, still have quality appliances, and not work so hard.

                Work constrains people and their are many working for a psychopathic managerial type. If you don’t need money desperately because you have over-reached yourself, you know that you can maintain yourself if you finally have to confront someone who is riding you in an unreasonable way.
                It would be good if people could realise how to cut their aspirations a little. And then they could support some project, organisation that puts back into society some of what has gone missing.

                And you can spend time with your children, who are riches to their family as are gold and precious stones from mining. People haven’t had to slave in a physical sense to have their children to form their family, yet the children are much more complex and wonderful than any wealth from the ground. Time, thought and loving words given and received at the appropriate time can result in happy children with the parental role modelling giving their own mind strength to handle the uncertain futures of the human being. This is bigger by far to achieve, than most outcomes from formal work.

                • RedLogixFormes

                  Thank you gw. That approaches the issue from the other side – and is a strategy always of considerable merit.

              • Ergo Robertina

                ‘While resources are finite and increasingly scarce, money is really nothing more than a claim on future resources. Paying people more really does not solve that problem at all.’

                This is an over simplification, and perhaps I haven’t explained my point clearly. The example I used in my first comment involved the link between planned obsolescence, inequality, and globalisation.
                It’s not about simply paying people more.
                With greater labour protection, higher wages, less wealth concentration/inequality, we would use resources more sparingly. For one thing, planned obsolescence would make less sense financially.
                Resulting health and social benefits would allow people to be a little more creative and resourceful, and find ways to enjoy their lives while consuming less.

                • RedLogixFormes

                  I think we are saying much the same thing – but I suspect few people have truly grasped the magnitude of the changes in resource consumption that are coming down the track at us.

                  We really have only two choices – a dramatic adaptation of our entire social and economic structure to harness science and technology to optimise and adapt the best we can to a very different world; or the usual descent into another Dark Age.

                  The former is within our knowledge and ability to achieve. But our delusions and vanities make the latter a far more likely outcome.

    • greywarshark 8.2

      The solution. Nah. Too big and complicated for a soundbite.

    • Raa 9.1

      CBS NewsOctober 20, 2014, 7:00 AM
      U.S. veteran joins ground war against ISIS

      The Kurds are out-gunned and out-manned, but Williams discovered that one of the fighters who has joined their ranks is an American volunteer.

      “I figured if I came over here more Americans and other people from other countries would come here,” Jeremy Woodard, a security guard from Meridian, Mississippi, told Williams.

      Woodard served with the U.S. military until 2012, having seen tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

      A month ago, after he was angered by news reports about atrocities committed by ISIS, he paid his own way to Turkey and was smuggled into the war zone.

      “I can’t really understand them, but sign language is everything,” he said of working with his new comrades. Woodard told CBS News he’s been involved in several battles against ISIS, including one close to Syria’s border with Iraq that he said raged for 24 hours.

      “I’ve killed two, in my first battle in Jezaa, and that’s it so far,” he told Williams. “Hopefully my numbers will go up. I never thought I’d be over in Syria killing people, but they’ve killed innocent people.”………………Woodard told us he’s not the only American fighting with the Kurdish militia members against ISIS in Syria. He said he knows of two others, and has heard there may be several more.

  8. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 10

    Would anyone else like to be one of Amy Adams’ sisters?
    Good job if you can get to be.

    • aspasia 10.1

      Please could you post the link for this. I saw it yesterday morning and was unable to find the article again later in the day.

  9. boldsirbrian 11


    Thursday 30 October, Midday
    Garden Place
    Funeral : Death of the Common Good: Pensioner Housing

    The number of pensioner houses in Hamilton is significantly lower than the majority of regional councils. At a time when the number of pensioners are expected to rapidly rise for the next thirty years, we might have expected local government to be investing in a significant increase in pensioner housing.

    This is NOT the case in Hamilton.

    Hamilton is governed by one of the most right wing councils in New Zealand. So far right that it would make Whyte and Seymour seem like communists. Hamilton can show the rest of New Zealand where local government can end up if the right’s “hidden agenda” is allowed to progress. Why Hamilton should be blessed with such an obnoxious bunch on Council is a mystery.

    Two years ago the sale of pensioner houses began. About 50 were sold in a firesale, raising about 3.5 million dollars. The majority on the open market, but the council likes to refer to their sale of a dozen of these houses (also sold at firesale rates) to Habitat for Humanity/Crosslight trust. The justification was that maintenance was urgently required on all the housing stock, and the proceeds would be used to upgrade the rest of the housing stock.

    This was a lie.

    The money has been left idle in a bank account, now tagged as the base for the mayor’s (Julie Hardaker) “legacy fund” so that she can be remembered for beautifying the Waikato River as it meanders through Hamilton.

    None of this money has been spent on maintenance on pensioner housing.

    But wait. There’s MORE. The current council plans are much worse

    Hamilton City Council are planning to sell their entire stock of pensioner housing 🙁

    The City Council say this is a Government responsibility. Government say that pensioner housing is a regional responsibility. Pensioners requiring housing are in the middle, with an increasing number of them facing the prospect of living in the backs of cars and under canvas presumably.

    The City Council will say that this is not true. They will be selling them to wonderful social service organisations who will be able to do a better job. (They will say little about the whole purpose of this is to fund Julie Hardaker’s legacy fund of beautifying the Waikato River)

    But let us analyse the sale. The sale of Hamilton’s 344 pensioner houses will be another firesale

    The exact amount that these will be sold for is unknown. The units have a book value of about $70000 each (on average) (Seems to me that this figure is substantially lower than current real estate market values, and is little more, or possibly less than land value)

    Council discussion papers refer to an approximate “discounted” rate of $43000 each. (on average) But rumours are that a deal has already been worked out between closed doors (presumably while PR spin is being worked out) and the 344 units will be sold for a as a gift at $30000 each (on average)

    These proposals are outrageous. And absolute fiscal irresponsibility

    How many New Zealanders are aware that a major City in out country could be so heartless?

    And who will be the recipients of this gift? The recipients should be named and shamed. The Catholic organisation St Vincent de Paul; Habitat for Humanity

    Of course they are interested. It’s a gift. But if these organisations had any sort of heart they would use their money to build additional required pensioner houses. If they use their money to purchase this stock, the chances of anybody extending pensioner housing schemes in Hamilton are almost zero. The Council will not do it. Who will?

    These proposals are outrageous. A moral outrage

    And a few questions:

    Question 1
    Is there any connection between Hamilton Councillor O’Leary working with St Vincent de Paul, and back room deals being worked out with St Vincent de Paul? Is this a conflict of interest?

    Question 2
    How does Councillor King get off going off overseas being a nice guy building a house for Habitat for Humanity, while at home he willingly gets rid of 344 homes for the humanity of Waikato citizens?

    Question 3
    If the majority of these pensioner houses were actually gifted to Council, have the Council studied all the trust deeds of these gifts?

    Question 4
    How can Hamilton City Council claim that the St Vincent de Paul Society and Habitat for Humanity are all about those organisations being a “better landlord”? They are in this game solely because they have been gifted a major investment opportunity.

    Question 5
    How can the Hamilton City Council consider improvements to the city design and landscaping of the Waikato River (Julie Hardaker’s legacy project) be of greater value than the ownership of 344 pensioner units for Hamilton?

    Question 6
    Why are surrounding councils such as Waipa, gearing up to provide more pensioner housing, while Hamilton is going out of such a responsibility for it’s citizens?

    Question 7
    Have the Hamilton City Council studied all the proposals that other councils have considered in their areas, to maintain Pensioner housing? I understand that Christchurch is studying alternatives, that do not involve simply getting rid of them all.

    Question 8
    How are Hamilton City Council going to PR this sale to the public? The left are against the sale because it is a moral outrage. Many on the right are against the sale because it is fiscally irresponsible. Who will be the winners? Julie Hardaker will be able to finance her “legacy” Waikato River landscape propsals. The far far right will be happy, simply because they are loons.

    Question 9
    For Hamilton ratepayers. Submissions on this topic are required by Council by the end of the month. It’s important that these are received. Even though the sale has already been unofficially been approved behind closed doors, and will be announced before Christmas. Will you please make a submission?

    Question 10
    For Waikato residents. WIll you be able to attend the Funeral : Death of the Common Good: Pensioner Housing at Hamilton Garden Place on Thursday 30 October?

    • adam 11.1

      Silly question boldsirbrian, you do understand when people go down a certain economic path they limit their options? Especially, within the realms of liberalism. Liberalism, has many faults, but the worst in my perspective – is when it is the dominant ideology – it can’t but act in an ideological manner. Orwell when he wrote 1984, was not just criticizing communism – he wrote it as a warning of liberalism as well.

      • boldsirbrian 11.1.1

        @ adam (11.1)

        In an attempt to understand what is good or bad in your perspective, (and regardless of academic discussions concerning liberalism and communism), what do you think about proposals of any New Zealand regional government to sell off all their pensioner housing stock?

      • greywarshark 11.1.2

        @ adam
        Do you like my favourite ideological description for the way forward – follow the idealistic pragmatist path?

    • Chooky 12.1

      +100 Clem…liked this bit by Dotcom:

      ““The Internet Party failed to deliver meaningful change in New Zealand at the last election because of the media spin by our opponents,” Dotcom says.

      “They have successfully turned me into a villain, a German Nazi, a horrible employer, a political hacker, a practitioner of prohibited digital voodoo magic and nothing short of a monster. I would hate that guy too if I didn’t know that it wasn’t true.”…

      “When you have the US Government, the NZ Government, all Hollywood studios and all major record labels fighting against you, you don’t have a lot of friends, especially in the media,” Dotcom says.

      “They either own the media (like in the US) or control the media with their significant advertising spending. Their passion to destroy me and everything I do, because of a copyright disagreement, is almost as fanatical as some of the religious extremism I see on TV.”

      imo…Monopoly Corporate Capitalism from USA in action….expect more of this if the TPPA is signed

      • Jimmie 12.1.1

        I suggest Mr Dotcom didn’t help his own cause and reputation:

        1 Villian. Has criminal convictions relating to money laundering and fraud.

        2 [deleted] Is of German heritage, admits to owning a copy of Mein Kamf (Also apparently owns a fair amount of Nazi memorabilia.)

        3 Bad Employer. Plenty of ex employees who testified to him making them working long hours and not paying wages as promised. Not many ex employees stating how wonderful he was. (maybe Liala Haree??)

        4 Political hacker. Admits to hacking credit record of ex German PM whom he didn’t like.

        5 Prohibited Digital Voodoo Magic. not sure about the voodoo magic but operating a file sharing website where copyrighted software was being distributed left/right & centre probably counts as prohibited digital….

        6 Nothing short of a monster. Probably ok with this one however with his ex wife having to sneak away from in the middle of a night on a golf cart does have similarities to Jack (of bean stalk fame) fleeing the giant…..so maybe if the shoe fits…..

        [lprent: Bye Jimmie. You are banned permanently for making a unsubstantiated defamatory assertion of fact. I really can’t be bothered educating fools who make this site liable.

        If you hadn’t then you would have been getting a long ban anyway because you didn’t link to anything to back your other assertions of fact. Try Whaleoil. He appears to like spending time in the dock.

        I don’t, especially for a pissant dickhead like you. ]

        • Tracey

          he owns stuff by churchill too does that make him a pompous englishman?

          17% of the Act party mps have criminal convictions for deceit and fraud… so they are the most criminally inhabited party we have. national gifted them a seat.

          he didnt breach copyright, users of his website did

          • wekarawshark

            You missed the bit about KDC being German. That misdemenour compounds the other to make him a monster.

          • greywarshark

            @Tracey 1.09
            Good to bring that forward and remind us about ACT. A busy little Party screwing everybody else and yet treading water itself under the NACT party.

        • phillip ure

          what a fevered wee mind ye have there..jimmie..

          ..have you thought of penning pot-boilers..?

          ..and a gold star for weaving jack and the beanstalk into yr harrowing-tales..

          ..that showed creative-courage..

          ..(and it’s laila harre..eh..?..)

        • Colonial Rawshark

          That Dotcom is a “Nazi” is the dumbest claim I’ve heard from you for some time, Jimmie.

          Good try on the hit job though.

      • ankerawshark 12.1.2

        Chooky @ 12.1 Same process, different content for DC

        • Chooky

          +100 anker…..agreed David Cunliffe was a ” hit job” as well!…infact like Dotcom DC should reply , now that he is out of it all….David Cunliffe should detail and itemise all the hits on him! ( maybe with some research and journalist help)..it must have been very bruising, even although he was very strong!….and like others who have been through trauma it is cathartic to write it all down

          …it would be good to see it published also ….such “hit jobs” should be made accountable and sheeted back home to the perpetrators for all to see

          (…I can think of a book titled ‘Hit Jobs’…in fact if written by a research journalist i can think of several chapters…Dotcom, Cunliffe, Hagar, and going back a bit …Helen Clark …..etc etc

      • Achtung 12.1.3

        Kim Dot Com could be in serious trouble. The next few months will determine if he remains in New Zealand or is deported to the United States. The justice system will have the final say.

        It’s good to read his own admission of the Internet-Mana failure, although he not always offers the correct reasons. He could and should have invested his money more wisely. The choice of Miss Harre turned out to be a serious mistake.

        • phillip ure

          “..The choice of Miss Harre turned out to be a serious mistake..”

          achtung gets bullshit-comment-of-the-day for that one..

          ..no contest..!

          • Colonial Rawshark

            The right wing know that they are damn lucky not to have Hone and Laila in Parliament now.

            Labour probably thinks similarly.

            • phillip ure

              and minto..and sykes…

              ..what we almost had..

              ..i dunno about you..but the grief in me is almost palpable..

              ..and isn’t easing much..

              ..i am going to start doing commentaries on q-time again..tomorrow..

              ..on a pale imitation of what might have been..

              ..and my mood is ugly…

  10. Chooky 13

    Western countries are increasingly ignoring Israel and demanding justice for the Palestinians and recognising the State of Palestine…Two eminent Jews discuss why the need for justice now

    “Why have Western countries only now decided to vote to recognize the state of Palestine? What will be the outcome? Will a legitimate Palestinian state bring peace to the region? Is an Israeli-Palestinian peace plan a dead end?”

    CrossTalking with Norman Finkelstein and Amir Oren.


    • Murray Rawshark 13.1

      The seppos are basically under Zionist control on these issues. It’s great to see other countries standing up to Zionist atrocities, but support from Washington allows Israel to carry on.

  11. adam 14

    Don’t you love when you’re on your morning read, and someone writes something which not only runs alongside what you have been thinking, but expands and develops that idea brilliantly.

    I’ve been thinking about music, and the woeful state it is in for ages. All the best music is underground, and hard to find – whilst Mainstream music is quite shallow and lacks any message.

    I hope you enjoy this as much as I did.


  12. Clemgeopin 15

    You too can take part in the Labour’s independent review if you like:


    Dear Clem

    Today we are pleased to announce the names of the four reviewers who will lead Labour’s independent review.

    Bryan Gould is Convenor of the review. He is joined by Hon Margaret Wilson, Stacey Morrison and Brian Corban. You can find out more about them by clicking HERE

    Hon Pete Hodgson and Gaylene Nepia are working as lead consultants in the production of the first report on the 2014 campaign, with similar arrangements for the other reports.

    The work of the whole initiative will be supported by a team of expert advisers. This will include successful senior campaigners from progressive parties overseas and specialists in qualitative and quantitative analysis.

    The review is an opportunity for Labour to take a long hard look at ourselves. We need to learn and apply lessons from the election and ensure that we can be an effective opposition and prepare for government in 2017.

    The review allows us to set a course to reconnect with the majority who want to see a fairer society and a more productive, sustainable economy. We need to be the alternative government ready to take office in 2017.

    The review team will be responsible for the production of three reports. The first one is on the 2014 general election campaign (completed by December 7), the second on the longer-term perspective, and the final one on the governance and operations implications for the Party (both completed by the end of February 2015).

    Submissions are open from today. Members, non-members and groups are all welcome to submit. The Terms of Reference can be found

    You can submit through the Labour website by clicking here or by emailing your submission to review@labour.org.nz.

    There will also be the opportunity for Labour members to submit in person to the review at face-to-face meetings in each hub. Details of these meetings will be provided as soon as they are available from the review team.

    Thank you to so many people who have already offered to participate in this important review.

    In solidarity,

    Moira Coatsworth
    Labour Party President

    • Ecosse_Maidy 15.1

      Clem…10.23 am..you posted this..I am so pleased you did…however you’d think that by 7.30 pm some would show a bit of interest..by posting a couple of comments.Yesterday in open mic I mentioned that I had heard Bryan Gould on the talk back radio talking of this and asked if anyone else had too?
      Not a dicky bird.
      I am beginning to wonder if the people in here are quite happy to tell everyone what’s wrong with Labour but none too many are prepared to to put their money where their mouth is and get involved. Perhaps some people have got too cosy in opposition and their twitter accounts & latte labour.

      • Chooky 15.1.1

        @ Ecosse Maidy…all they need to do is get a researcher/student to trawl through the all comments on this blog and other blogs eg Daily Blog

        ….and they will have a very good random selection as to why many different people thought Labour failed !!! …and was failing even six months before the Election!

        ….i think people are very tired of repeating themselves!

        …and btw …this Review is a bit late isnt it?!…in the meantime David Cunliffe (the popular membership choice) has been forced to take the blame and not only resign but also promise never to seek re-election ( smells!)

        …no wonder people are cynical about the Labour Party!…i wouldnt mind betting they are also cynical about the review!

      • Clemgeopin 15.1.2


        Actually I did listen to the brilliant Brian Gould. I am sure many others from here would have too, but may not necessarily write a reply.

        In my opinion, the Neo liberal minded destructive caucus members are a drain on the Labour party as they seem to be the disloyal dodgy secret leakers that have sullied this great social justice party. It is time for the membership to seek greater powers and kick these bastards out. They are free to join ACT, NZF, National, the Cons or just go away and live quietly and happily somewhere on their very fat political pensions and baubles.

      • Murray Rawshark 15.1.3

        My efforts will be going towards Mana. What Labour comes up with in a review is of little direct interest. I don’t have a twitter account and I don’t drink lattés. I have been in opposition all my life. It’s not cosy.

    • Ad 16.1

      He was asked: “When you die, what will you say to God?”
      He apparently replied: “Well you can be certain of one thing. I will treat him as an equal.”

      Possibly apocryphal, but quite a line.

      – Brought in the first national health insurance.
      – Recognised China (during the Vietnam War no less!)
      – Let the arts flourish
      – Abolished university fees
      (Among other things)

      To me, this guy deserves a post of his own – with a comparison to Norman Kirk.

      Sure as heck one of those guys for whom it was better to flame out after making massive positive change, than to hang around after defeat.

      A well deserved rest.

      • alwyn 16.1.1

        That certainly counts as a great statement.
        It comes into the same category as Churchill’s view on the same subject really.
        “I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.”
        They would both have been polite to God. What they would have said to each other doesn’t really bear thinking about.

    • Tiger Mountain 16.2

      Important part of the narrative 40 years ago–Gough Whitlam and Queenie’s rep John ‘Cur’.

      Along with Big Norm in NZ, Allende in Chile, French nuclear testing, etc. All set against the wiretapping, assassinating, election fixing CIA backdrop.

      • Te Reo Putake 16.2.1

        Agree totally, TM. Dirty politics was a lot less subtle in the early seventies.

        • Tracey

          not so. murdoch ordered his editors to “kill whitlam”…. not literally but politically. they played their part. fast forward 40+ years

          • Te Reo Putake

            I thought Murdoch backed Whitlam’s election, Tracey? He loathed the Liberals (but was also keen on the even more rightwing Country party).

    • Sad news.

      I wonder if I will live long enough to find out what really happened in 1975. There’s a dark mist that covers that particular sequence of events.

    • SHG 16.4

      A colossus. Vale.

    • Clemgeopin 16.6

      Thanks for that link, Te Reo Putake. Very informative. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

  13. Ad 17

    Is someone going to post properly on the Speech from the Throne?

    Slim pickings in there unless you build motorways, build houses, or need your ACC fees lowered.

    • Tracey 17.1

      apparently isis has had a meteoric rise. i wonder, wasnt the usa warned about them eighteen months ago? is that meteoric?

      • greywarshark 17.1.1

        Same with ebola. No-one knew about it really, apart from a few deadly and puzzling outbreaks. And now. who’d have thunk it.

        • Tracey

          hmmmmm, ebola has been known for decades… it just hadnt reached the usa til now…

          key says we need 1984 type law changes cos of meteoric rise of isis. i call bs on meteoric

        • rawshark-yeshe


          this is remarkable .. how Nigeria has defeated Ebola using proper hydration and very basic electrolytes, nothing more … common sense with intelligence … panic can cease.

          And I think I am quite amazed it was even published !

          • greywarshark

            rawshark yeshe 2.20
            And the heros of Nigeria now dead – from ebola.
            Dr Ameyo Stella Adadevoh is the doctor credited with helping prevent the disease spreading much more widely at the early stages.
            She and her colleagues quickly identified a victim who came to Nigeria as having Ebola and placed him in quarantine…..
            Dr Adadevoh, whose great-grandfather was a founder of the modern Nigeria, died on 19 August, having herself contracted the disease.

            From the bbc more detail. And the other health workers who died are recognised – so that is nice – it is easy to be fixated on one hero,
            The sick man demanded to be allowed to leave and tore out the drips and splashed health workers with him.
            Dr Adadevoh and four other health workers died from the virus.

    • lprent 17.2

      More like the intent to build motorways and the vague aspiration to build houses rather than the actual doing of it.

      The ACC fees yes. Of course they had to raise them considerably first so that they could lower them sufficiently later (several times).

  14. Michael Nolan 18


    I opened the Bob Jones piece from NZHerald today hours ago then left it because I couldn’t be bothered reading his dribble. When I returned to my laptop I noticed the poll about Labour leader preference. It had 50-150 responses and had Al on 30% and GR leading on 34%. I thought I would refresh to see what the results were now, and it came back with 0-50 responses and a completely different response (DP equal lead with AL).

    What’s going on with the Herald polls? Is someone gaming them? That is very dodgy.

  15. Tracey 19

    gordon campbell and jane kelsey’s latest offerings ontpp well worth a read… at scoop.

    here is kelsey’


    • Tracey 19.1

      david fisher has an interesting article on the herald today about our spy agencies.

      … wonder when his long awaited piece on dirty poitics is coming out

  16. Colonial Rawshark 20

    Labour Party factions and the leadership contest.

    MP3 of Radio 1 interview I did with Olivier Jutel and Karl Williams, in Dunedin last Friday.

    [audio src="http://www.r1.co.nz/podcasts/Olivier%20-%20Tat%20Loo.mp3" /]

    • Olwyn 20.1

      That was wonderful! Well done! Such a relief to hear the issues spoken about frankly, in a public forum, free from the standard braying.

      • Colonial Rawshark 20.1.1

        Thanks 🙂 These guys actually let me finish whole statements, which was amazing. Radio 1 are a real class act in this regard.

    • greywarshark 20.2

      Colonial Rawshark
      A good interview, you come across well Colonial, with sensible discussion casting some light and the interviewer was sharp but interested in getting info.

      • Colonial Rawshark 20.2.1

        Cheers, GW. The main interviewer Olivier Jutel has completed a PhD on US politics and the Obama effect. Smart guy.

    • Clemgeopin 20.3

      That was such a refreshingly good interview! I enjoyed it very much. Wish it had gone on for a little longer exploring more issues. Well done!

      I think every Labour leadership contender, the caucus members and every Labour party member should listen to that interview.

      Tell you what, I am going to send that link to each Labour MP to mull things over. Can you give me the link to the interview that I can email please?


      • Colonial Rawshark 20.3.1

        Yeah I looked up at the clock and 15 minutes had passed in a flash…must have been enjoying myself!

        • Clemgeopin

          Can you give me a suitable link to the interview that I can email to the caucus members please?

    • Colonial Rawshark 20.4

      Thanks for your support Standardistas. I’ve learnt much from each of you over time and hope to synthesise more of your ideas and put them out there in public forums as opportunities come up. The interviewers were pretty sharp and challenging, it was good times.

  17. greywarshark 21

    I was reading about Leonard Bernstein. His story is great but his death and burial had some points to note. Construction workers commemorating a musician in NZ – would that happen?

    On the day of his funeral procession through the streets of Manhattan, construction workers removed their hats and waved, yelling “Goodbye, Lenny.”[41]
    Bernstein is buried in Green-Wood Cemetery, Brooklyn, New York, next to his wife and with a copy of Mahler’s Fifth lying across his heart.[42]
    The draft of his memoir, Blue Ink, having only existed in electronic form in a password-protected document that still remains unopened to this day, has become a poster-child in the probate community for the need of increased awareness of digital assets during the estate planning process. [43]

    Could be that techies here should think about this matter of death and digital records assets etc.

  18. Mention has been made of Redline blog. I’m surprised some folks haven’t heard of it because, although we’re very small fish compared to the major right-wing and left-wing blogs, we have been getting about 8,000 hits a month in recent months.

    Whether we are ‘old’ – or what that even means – folks can judge for themselves. But here’s some recent stuff:

    another very busy week at the blog as we’ve been sticking up pieces about workers’ struggles here and abroad.

    The key articles in recent days about workers’ struggles are:
    ANZ bank workers take action: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/anz-bank-workers-take-action/

    A significant factory takeover in Buenos Aires points the way forward: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/factory-takeover-in-argentina-sees-discussions-on-workers-power-and-womens-liberation-the-russian-revolution/

    There’s a really interesting article about the rise of China’s workers movement as the ‘communist’ rulers impose a particularly rapacious capitalism on the population: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/the-rise-of-chinas-workers-movement/

    A German worker writes about his employer, Amazon; where he works, the employees are currently in struggle: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/amazon-the-global-digital-east-india-company-of-the-21st-century/

    The latest global wealth statistics show inequality is widening: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/latest-global-wealth-statistics/

    Almost wherever workers are in struggle, we find the police being called on us; what is the role of the cops in society? There’s a good piece by the Irish group Socialist Democracy, see here: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/the-cops-and-the-capitalist-state/

    Ever feel like you are having to live to work, rather than merely working to live? No surprise, because while technology once held out the prospect of a leisure society, the reality is that in NZ (and some other OECD countries, like the US) we’re working more hours than at any time since the 40-hour week was won 100 or more years ago.
    See Capitalism and the tyranny of time: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/capitalism-and-the-tyranny-of-time/
    Whatever happened to the leisure society?: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/whatever-happened-to-the-leisure-society/

    While the New Zealand elite are smug and self-flattering about getting a guest position on the United Nations Security Council for the next two years, the rest of us should be organising rather than celebrating, because it’s not good news for us.
    See: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/nz-elite-win-seat-at-un-security-council-dont-celebrate-organise/
    As to the United Nations itself, see: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/united-nations-friend-or-foe/
    Also see how there’s a division of labour between the UN and the big powers; for instance, first the UN killed about a million Iraqis through its sanctions in the 1990s, then the US led a military invasion: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/sanctions-and-bombs-how-the-un-and-western-powers-committed-mass-murder-in-iraq-before-the-2003-invasion/

    Lastly, we’ve stuck up the text of Urewera ‘terrorist’ frame-up victim Val Morse’s speech at the Wellington anti-prisons rally on October 18:

    Actually, one more lastly, which is some stuff to do with Labour. People here might be interested in our analysis of the Labour Party as part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Our major feature on Labour is here (it’s pamphlet-length long):

    Not much is written about the rather overlooked third Labour government (1972-75); we examine its record and conclude it rather paved the way for the fourth Labour government: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/anti-working-class-to-its-core-the-third-labour-government/

    for Redline blog

    • Colonial Rawshark 22.1

      Thanks for popping by Phil, good to hear a bit more about Redline. That factory takeover story looks very interesting indeed. Democratic socialism in action…

      As for Labour being a capitalist party…well its been that way well before Rogernomics.

      • Philip Ferguson 22.1.1

        Yes, indeed, Labour was a capitalist party well before Rogernomics, a point made in the examination of its history by Daphna Whitmore and myself.

        Indeed, by 1935, the radicalism of the early Labour leaders was well gone. The biggest capitalist in the country, Ernest Davis supported them – and Labur had him knighted.

        Semple has become a boss.

        Also, I think quite a few people would be shocked to see how racist (anti-Chinese) a lot of these early Labour heroes were.


  19. Tracey 23

    i see the defence force is happy to lie or look duplicitous for the PM

    ” Tim Keating says “We dropped the ball” not informing PM about Obama meeting….”

    He has announced his resignation, right? Key will sack him, right?

    its clever, it contains distraction, cos according to us press reports, even without obamas attendance it was to discuss ISIS, but keating makes it all about protocol stopping them knowing in advance about obamas attendance. see what they did there, smoke and mirrors.

    • rawshark-yeshe 23.1

      and so it goes. sigh. Crosby Textor takes us to war while Jason Ede is rewarded and Simon Lizard Lusk sees his candidates offer their maiden speeches. omfg. how wrong this is.

  20. philip ferguson 24

    I won’t make a habit of advertising our stuff here, but here’s some basic stuff on capitalism on Redline and also on Key’s economic policy, and a couple of pieces on the end of the idea of ‘the leisure society’ (thanks capitalism) and pensions/retirement age stuff.

    How capitalism works – and why it doesn’t: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/07/21/how-capitalism-works-%E2%80%93-and-doesn%E2%80%99t-work/

    The Key-English government in the context of capital accumulation in New Zealand today: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/the-key-english-government-in-the-context-of-capital-accumulation-in-new-zealand-today/

    Key’s ‘vision’: managing the malaise of New Zealand capitalism: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/keys-vision-managing-the-malaise-of-new-zealand-capitalism/

    Whatever happened to the leisure society?: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/whatever-happened-to-the-leisure-society/

    Pensions and the retirement age – the problem is capitalism, not an aging population: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/06/29/pensions-and-the-retirement-age-the-problem-is-capitalism-not-an-aging-population/

    Low pay, longer hours and less social mobility – welcome to 21st century NZ capitalism: http://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/low-pay-longer-hours-and-less-social-mobility/


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