Open mike 22/04/2012

145 comments on “Open mike 22/04/2012 ”

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1. Carol 1

   22 April 2012 at 7:43 am

   I work part time and at weekends, but don’t mind that. But do we need as many people working weekends, and is it destroying family and community life? I don’t have children, but it must be hard for parents of young children to need to work weekends. In fact, one of the weekend cleaners at my workplace has said things to that effect.

   And when Monday to Friday workers complain about losing a public holiday every few years, do they realise many people never get the Monday public holidays and welcome the years a public holiday falls at a weekend?

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/6786313/Where-did-the-weekends-go

   More than a third of workers work their “normal hours” outside the standard 7am-7pm, Monday to Friday time frame, Statistics New Zealand figures reveal, and 20 per cent of our workforce works more than 50 hours a week.

   Council of Trade Unions president Helen Kelly said: “I think for thousands of workers the weekend is just nonexistent and has been for some time. Not only is the weekend becoming working time, but hours are so irregular that workers don’t even have replacement days. It’s not like they are working Tuesday to Saturday and having Sunday and Monday off. They are rostered on any time, any place.”

   And this change to a 7 day business week has come from businesses that want to increase their profits. Do we really need 7 day shopping, when many places in Europe manage quite well with shops closing on Sundays?
   • Herodotus 1.1

     22 April 2012 at 9:10 am

     Totally agree with your comment, pity those who allow laws to be made forgot about the voter and what is best for the country. But I am sure that those who supported the Mondanising of ANZAC and Waitangi Days didn’t give a second thought to the group you are part of Carol. I am still surprised that no-one has commented why Labour is supporting the extension of consumerism and big business to the extent that we will have shops open 364 of the 365 day p.a..and I am waiting for someone to question why Christmas day should be the exception?
     As can be seen by this post many here could not care about the damage done by Labour to the worker, all they seem to have in mind is the damage National causes and too bad about the collateral damage that was caused by Labour governments
     http://thestandard.org.nz/the-other-wage-gap/
     • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1

       22 April 2012 at 11:53 am

       Labour lurched to the right and accepted the Monetarist economic theory in the 1970s despite the fact that they first came to power when the previous implementation of such a theory collapsed.
   • Rosie 1.2

     22 April 2012 at 10:18 am

     Hi Carol,
     I’ve just read the stuff article you posted and have popped over here to see if there was any one talking about it- and you are!

     I think our obsessive consumerism is ulitmately damaging for society, and fully agree with the points and observations in this article. I’ve worked in retail off and on through my life, starting out in 1989 prior to the ECA coming into effect and the subsequent scrapping of penal rates, among many other reductions in working conditions. I remember if you had to work the odd Saturday morning you got double pay. It was time and half on Friday night. Eventually things changed to what they are now. My last job was a fall back position in retail. The recession came and I couldn’t use my tertiary qual I had recently obtained. I worked every Saturday for two years and it was so depressing on top of everything else that was wrong with working there.

     Ironically I had written an essay for one of my papers, on the topic on deteriorating work life balance and its effect on psychological well being, using the NZ example and comparing with differing employment legislation and experience in other industralised countries. Guess what, NZ came out on the bottom in regard to long hours worked and stress related illness. The worst affected groups worked in service: retail, hospitality and caregiving.

     The profit at any cost mentality we have in NZ is so damaging in so many ways, to so many sectors of society and the labour market is no exception. It would be great to see more media discussion about this.
     • Pete George 1.2.1

       22 April 2012 at 10:50 am

       I think our obsessive consumerism is ulitmately damaging for society

       I ahgree with this, but to a fair extent it’s a voluntary condition. For evey excessive marketer (that continues) there’s a willing market.
       • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1

         22 April 2012 at 11:58 am

         No PG, it’s not voluntary. When people don’t have enough to eat and can’t cover the bills then they’re willing to work long hours for SFA – exactly as planned by the neo-liberals.
         • Pete George 1.2.1.1.1

           22 April 2012 at 12:43 pm

           But many many people voluntarily buy too much stuff and too much of the wrong sort of stuff.
           • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1.1

             22 April 2012 at 1:07 pm

             Very profound.
             Of course, if penal rates were mandatory on the weekend, the cause of your handwringing  would be solved for the weekend. And workers would be better off.
       • muzza 1.2.1.2

         22 April 2012 at 1:03 pm

         Pete you have been showing signs of trying to understand of late, but this you do not comprehend.

         Marketing and advertising are based on the long term studies of human nature, and psychology plays a huge part in the campaigns, which have rendered the average person into a dribbling moronic, consumer. The advertsing is part if the wider attack on society, the family, the individual. You name it, its being attacked!

         While I agree with you that the resposibility lies with the end user, their ability to critically understand what has been happening to them, has been removed.

         The techniques too advanced, and the systems attacking the spirit at every turn, has lead to societal misery, and rampant consumerism is a symptom, and much of the related debt.

         These things are all closely linked.
       • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.3

         22 April 2012 at 1:23 pm

         For evey excessive marketer (that continues) there’s a willing market.

         Often “willing” markets opened up by coercion, force and threat. Yeah, that’s real willing.

         Also those who prey on human weaknesses – pokie machines being the classic example of highly specialist designed interactions constructed to be physiologically addictive.
       • QoT 1.2.1.4

         22 April 2012 at 1:37 pm

         Remember, everyone, you live in a vacuum completely bereft of societal messages about wealth, value, deriving satisfaction in material objects! You are not constantly bombarded with advertisements inventing issues which their products will solve! You are not being told on a daily basis that if you don’t eat this, use this, own this, you are stupid/uncool/damaging your children/ruining your own life!

         Pete thinks so, so it must be true.
         • McFlock 1.2.1.4.1

           22 April 2012 at 1:45 pm

           To be fair, Pete has never let his fundamental unpopularity affect his decisions. His lack of electoral support was spectacular, but he still believes he knows what “the people” want. He is told daily that he’s a jerk, and the point hasn’t sunk in yet. So he can’t see why anyone else would be different.
           • Pete George 1.2.1.4.1.1

             22 April 2012 at 3:43 pm

             I don’t care about being called a jerk here, especially when you see who calls me one. Abuse makes a very poor argument.

             I get different feedback in different forums – some of them refer to here as full of jerks and wonder why I bother commenting here. Do you think that will sink in? I doubt any one will care either.
             • McFlock …

               22 April 2012 at 4:06 pm

               Really? I was simply going by your reception here and in your local electorate. Where do you get positive feedback, petey?
               • Pete George …

                 22 April 2012 at 4:16 pm

                 I actually got some very positive feedback in the electorate for my main focus, including from all four eventual Dunedin baseed MP’s (on record in local newspapers). And what I went into the election campaign for is still progressing here.

                 And you might be surprised who I got positive feedback from today – from someone who played a significant role in Green campaigning, we’re on a similar wavelength on a very interesting project and may combine our efforts. People prepared to put ideologies aside and work collabaritively.

                 What I do here is a relatively minor part of what I’m doing.
                 • McFlock …

                   22 April 2012 at 8:24 pm

                   What I do here is a relatively minor part of what I’m doing.
                   oh? Good.
                     
                   Nice to hear that your competing candidates didn’t call you a jerk in the press.
             • QoT …

               22 April 2012 at 4:10 pm

               Do you think that will sink in?

               A girl can hope.
         • Pete George 1.2.1.4.2

           22 April 2012 at 3:11 pm

           I’m well aware of the persuasiveness of pervasiveness of marketing. But it can’t be banned, and cannot be easily controlled by regulation. The best way to beat it is by playing them at their own game, social marketing. Either that or just accept that sheep will be always be sheep, and the marketing shepherds will keep convincing them of all the things they don’t really need.
           • QoT 1.2.1.4.2.1

             22 April 2012 at 3:50 pm

             So … you understand marketing is persuasive, but still want to call people “sheep”. Another fine chapter in the Pete George Manifesto Of Knowing Better Than You, Youngsters.
             • Pete George …

               22 April 2012 at 4:18 pm

               Any suggestions on a better way of describing the MacDonald syndrome?
           • DH 1.2.1.4.2.2

             22 April 2012 at 4:24 pm

             The lecturers at my sales & marketing courses had a name for people like you Pete. Profit. The easiest people to con are those who think they can’t be conned. They look at everyone else as sheep & don’t even notice their own fleece has been shorn.

             The Fair Trading Act is a good law to control deceptive marketing, it just doesn’t get enforced enough.
           • Reality Bytes 1.2.1.4.2.3

             22 April 2012 at 7:35 pm

             Critical thinking of consumer economics and marketing really needs to be taught as a high school staple, it really is a valuable life skill. I never recall being taught anything remotely relevant to it during my stint in the education system. If anything it was the opposite, they were teaching ways to make a living out of the consumerist status quo.

             My education on critical thought of the topic came from the good old university of Real Life. I was fortunate enough to spend some time living on a tight budget in the UK when I was younger doing my OE. It taught me there was much more to life than what the TV told me I wanted to buy. I learned a real appreciation for not frittering away hard earned money on consumer marketed junk. I don’t even own a TV now, I’ll catch a very small selection of tv shows on-demand and that’s it, and I skip all the ads.

             As far as I’m concerned if a company has to advertise it’s product, you probably don’t need it. When I buy stuff, I start with MY opinion of what I need, then research to find out what is most suitable/ethical (e.g. free range animal products) solution. Often I may not even buy something if I can make/recycle/repair/improvise something myself. Even buying something second hand, no shame in that, it’s better than a perfectly functional product it ending up in the tip. I am a big fan of trademe & local markets for that very reason.
             • KJT …

               22 April 2012 at 8:37 pm

               Well, It is part of the new New Zealand curriculum.

               Probably one of the reasons NACT is so keen on sabotaging its introduction.
               • Reality Bytes …

                 23 April 2012 at 6:29 pm

                 That’s good to hear something along those lines is taught now, I just don’t recall anything similar during my time circa 80s early 90s.

                 I hope it doesn’t get sabotaged.
         • Puddleglum 1.2.1.4.3

           22 April 2012 at 10:30 pm

           Yes, the ‘messages’ are important influences but I think the importance of the way things are organised, the structures of daily life are often overlooked as mechanisms to encourage consumerism and eliminate alternatives.

           For example, time pressure makes malls appear like convenient ways of purchasing different kinds of goods all in one place. But, then, once you’re in the mall the psychological engineering kicks in. The structures of modern life, that is, serve us all up (soften us all up?) for the messages. 
   • DH 1.3

     22 April 2012 at 2:47 pm

     I started my working life in retail back in the days when we had a Thursday or Friday late night. I got up to management level & then they brought in Saturday trading. I’d work a 12hr day Friday & then 9-12 Saturday, it put a crimp in the social life. Then it went to 9-3pm Saturday and that’s when I quit the trade, got too much.

     Retail trading hours are bad for the family and social life, I’d be happy to see Sunday trading disappear so everyone can have a break. It’s not as if retail turnover would be affected, same amount of money would still be spent it would just be spent in six days instead of seven.

     Can’t see it changing though, consumers have gotten too used to the convenience of all-weekend & evening shopping.
   • Vicky32 1.4

     22 April 2012 at 6:22 pm

     Do we really need 7 day shopping, when many places in Europe manage quite well with shops closing on Sundays?

     Absolutely, no we don’t!
2. Pete George 2

   22 April 2012 at 7:58 am

   Ratings time must be due in radioland. Michael Laws at his attention seeking best (or worst):

   Stop feckless mums having more kids

   One of the great moral disasters of our time is that our society lets inadequate people have children. In fact, it doesn’t just allow the pathetic to become parents, it positively encourages it.

   Prevent bad parents in advance by sterilising them, pay them not to breed. Heard it all before. It’s sure to stir up a demographic.

   Michael Laws to be Sterilisation Selector chief? Or just mischief.
   • felix 2.1

     22 April 2012 at 8:31 am

     Well he is the man who said we should line the whole country up against a wall and pick out everyone who looks like a “crim” and send them to jail.

     He then said “you might not get all of them but you’d get most of them, surely” or something very similar to this.

     Frankly the man is a f@cist, in the quite literal sense.
     • kiwi_prometheus 2.1.1

       22 April 2012 at 10:35 am

       Thanks for that Captain Obvious.

       You must spend a lot of time listening to those shock jocks, you are always going on about what they are saying.

       A death match between you and Laws would be cool. Whichever one lost would be a score for NZ.
       • felix 2.1.1.1

         22 April 2012 at 1:10 pm

         Obvious perhaps, but sometimes obvious things need restating. I don’t much like the idea that we should avoid pointing out obvious f@cists in our public discourse just because we already know about them.

         That could be seen as a tacit – even if unintended – acceptance of such views.

         And yep I absorb a fair bit of media, some by choice and some by circumstance. Thankfully Laws is more a case of “occasionally by chance”.
         • kiwi_prometheus 2.1.1.1.1

           22 April 2012 at 1:20 pm

           No, you just like to mouth off.

           You and Laws are opposite sides of the same coin.

           The Left doesn’t need rad fems hanging around. Unless their goal is to stay out of government.
           • felix 2.1.1.1.1.1

             22 April 2012 at 1:26 pm

             What’s the alternative to being a feminist?
           • QoT 2.1.1.1.1.2

             22 April 2012 at 1:40 pm

             Oh, I do so love to see people outing themselves as misogynists – especially when it’s by out-of-nowhere dropping radical feminism into a conversation about talkback radio.
             • kiwi_prometheus …

               22 April 2012 at 1:57 pm

               Well well, the Valerie Solanas wannabe has rocked on up today! Must be a bit lonely over there on your blog, averaging about 2 comments an article, and they usually your own comments, lol.

               The Left doesn’t need rad fem man haters.
               • QoT …

                 22 April 2012 at 3:53 pm

                 Oh, I’m so wounded! A Valerie Solanas comment AND a stab at my readership? If only I didn’t post here on a semi-regular basis, frequently getting 100+ comments on my posts …

                 You know you still need to actually back up your statements with links, right? I’ve mentioned it a couple of times now, and I am truly excited to know how you’ve deduced felix is a man-hater.
                 • KJT …

                   22 April 2012 at 8:32 pm

                   LOL. I have a sneaking suspicion Felix is a male.

                   But carry on amusing us tearing the fire bringer apart.
           • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.1.3

             22 April 2012 at 1:43 pm

             felix has been here almost from the beginning.

             Remarkably for someone who has said so much food for thought, and given so much sheer delight and pleasure with the ritual disembowlings routinely administered … I still have absolutely no clear sense of who he or she is. I don’t even care whether felix is a boy or girl… it’s what is said that matters. And felix has been one of a handful who have shaped The Standard into what it is. The pseudonym tells all you really need to know; playful, dangerously intelligent and has sharp claws.

             Nor does has any narrow ‘rad-fem’ agenda ever been apparent. felix contributes on all sorts of threads and topics.

             What’s the alternative to being a feminist?

             My answer is simple and plain. There is none. The slaver, property-owning patriarchy makes life a misery for most of humanity; male and female. We would all be much better off without it. And our sex lives would be a lot more fun too.
             • kiwi_prometheus …

               22 April 2012 at 1:51 pm

               more rad fem nonsense

               hardly the stuff that’s going to get Labour some votes off National
               • QoT …

                 22 April 2012 at 1:53 pm

                 k_p, if you think statements like “we would all be better off without patriarchy” constitute “radical feminism”, you could be in for a rude shock one day.
                 • kiwi_prometheus …

                   22 April 2012 at 2:00 pm

                   Oh really? You think you’ve managed to mainstream that do you?
                   • RedLogix …

                     22 April 2012 at 2:11 pm

                     Nope. Not at all mainstream.

                     And in fact not even mainstream here at The Standard. We hardly ever frame discussions in purely ‘radical femminist’ terms as you would have it. For me it’s mostly a private aspect of my life. What I think about, how I see things and what I value is mostly my own business. Except here.

                     This is a place to say things that are not mainstream, where you can say what you really think and have people respond. Quite often you aren’t going to like the response; but it’s real and sometimes, quite often, you learn stuff.

                     Usually about yourself.
               • McFlock …

                 22 April 2012 at 1:54 pm

                 kp, you’ve spent too much time around Chris Trotter.
                 • kiwi_prometheus …

                   22 April 2012 at 1:58 pm

                   You’ve spent too much time around QofBS.
                   • McFlock …

                     22 April 2012 at 2:04 pm

                     I see that you are environmentally conscious, if not a feminist. You recycle other people’s lines frequently.
                      
               • RedLogix …

                 22 April 2012 at 2:03 pm

                 As a white middle-aged male I came quite late in life to how I think about ‘feminism’. A few years ago I’d been saying much the same line you are right now k_p. I’m not in a mood right now to reprise everything that changed my mind; but has been a real collection of ideas from numerous sources; many of them more related to behavioural evolution and epigenetics than any exposure to a ‘radical feminist’ agenda you are so contemptuous of.

                 In fact I’m utterly innocent of having read ANY serious feminist material whatsoever.

                 I’ve really arrived at my own understanding from a completely different direction, equally as much to do with how badly the patriarchy servers MOST men, as it also fundamentally shapes world into a place most women feel it unsafe to be their real selves.

                 But carry on with the contempt and sneering if you want. Don’t imagine for an instant it will impress anyone. We’ve seen it all before.
                 • kiwi_prometheus …

                   24 April 2012 at 11:42 pm

                   Sneering and contempt?

                   Hypocrite. Your fellow femininsts mates felix and QofT show plenty of that in their rants.
                   • QoT …

                     24 April 2012 at 11:49 pm

                     Yeah, but we’re sneering and contemptuous towards people who make hilarious statements like “felix is a radical feminist” and who think adding “BS” to a person’s screenname constitutes an argument.

                     You still haven’t backed up any of your statements. Ours just requires a person to scroll up, read your “contributions”, and join in the sniggering.
     • RedLogix 2.1.2

       22 April 2012 at 1:02 pm

       Well for one I respect felix for having the stomach to listen to Laws. Frankly I’d just get too angry and finish up breaking too many radios.

       But someone has to speak up against the evil this man is spewing. Sure he may be running as a ‘shock jock’ and only a minority might put their hands up to support what he is saying. But it normalises and desensitises us to something that is fundamentally wrong.

       All people have the fundamental right to have children. Laws does not get to set some entirely arbitrary standard on who gets to reproduce and who does not.

       Promoting compulsory sterilisation is pure facist evil. Of the most egregious kind.

       Free speech is not the same as being free to say anything you like and Laws has stepped well over the boundary with this.
       • kiwi_prometheus 2.1.2.1

         22 April 2012 at 1:42 pm

         felix is permanently in a rage – oscillating between full blown and barely supressed – after all she is a rad fem. So listening to Laws all day would have no discernible effect on her mood.

         Yes I agree the media needs cleaning up – Laws, Henry, Holmes et al. A result of a generation of neoliberal policy.

         I know politics makes for strange bed mates but felix is a false friend, those misanthropists are losers.
         • QoT 2.1.2.1.1

           22 April 2012 at 1:44 pm

           after all she is a rad fem

           I am honestly thoroughly intrigued by this allegation and most desirous of your citations.
         • RedLogix 2.1.2.1.2

           22 April 2012 at 1:48 pm

           Nope. You have been here five minutes k_p; felix I’ve been reading for over five years. In that time you may not ever know who a commenter is in real life, but you do get a real sense of their soul.

           I’d suggest you’ve leapt to a wrong conclusion based on limited evidence. To put it politely.
           • QoT 2.1.2.1.2.1

             22 April 2012 at 1:49 pm

             I’d suggest k_p thinks that laying down the “you’re a radical feminist!” smackdown is somehow a killer silencing move. Further evidence to support the notion that k_p hasn’t known felix very long.
             • kiwi_prometheus …

               22 April 2012 at 2:02 pm

               Funny how it’s you who turns up to defend her then.
               • QoT …

                 22 April 2012 at 3:55 pm

                 I like felix, whose gender identity I am ignorant of. And you’re funny, and if you’d been here longer than 10 minutes you’d know how I like to poke the funny ones.
         • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2.1.3

           22 April 2012 at 2:19 pm

           …after all she is a rad fem.

           All this hate for women.

           To be honest, I haven’t seen anything from you that is worth reading. You don’t argue, just state baseless ‘facts’ as if that wins the argument and then go all ad hominem when called on it.
           • Hateatea 2.1.2.1.3.1

             22 April 2012 at 8:43 pm

             Kiwi_prometheus would appear to be able to determine almost everything about all of us, without effort, based purely on his own prejudices.
              
             The thing I have noticed most : how often he has got it wrong. Oh well, he will get his sooner or later. I hope I am around to see it happen . 😉
             • QoT …

               22 April 2012 at 9:52 pm

               We should totally throw a party or something!
   • rosy 2.2

     22 April 2012 at 8:40 am

     Eugenics and misogyny on the same page – he’s getting more efficient at this, isn’t he? Apparently women have these babies by themselves. Happy to read that you don’t support that tripe, Pete.
     • Pete George 2.2.1

       22 April 2012 at 9:10 am

       And as expected there’s support for what he says. Including support for compulsory contraception.

       http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/general_debate_22_april_2012.html

       It’s scary that there are people who would go down thatv track, but the chances of it happening are virtually nil in New Zealand.
       • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.1

         22 April 2012 at 11:59 am

         We hope but we really need to work to ensure that it doesn’t.
   • millsy 2.3

     22 April 2012 at 2:37 pm

     I wonder what L(h)aws will do when he remembers that he opposed Ruth’s benefit cuts back in ’91, even to the point that he walked out of the party….
   • mike e 2.4

     22 April 2012 at 5:47 pm

     Maybe laws could start the ball rolling by setting an example!
3. rosy 3

   22 April 2012 at 8:31 am

   Absolutely cutting critique of the debacle that is the F1 in Bahrain this weekend.

   …As for the Mr Kurtz of Formula One, it is almost touching to watch Britain’s plucky politicians cower from criticising Ecclestone with any bite. Perhaps it feels a little too soon for Labour, who may remember the time when his £1m donation caused such a stink, but fortunately didn’t do such lasting damage to Tony Blair that he wasn’t able to spend a decade schmoozing Colonel Gaddafi and Hosni Mubarak and other much-missed Middle East faces…

   Can’t interrupt BAU.
   • RedLogix 3.1

     22 April 2012 at 8:38 am

     Even looked at from the Bahraini side, Yates seems an eccentric hire. There are only two tenuously sane explanations for his appointment. The first is that the Bahraini king was only in possession of outdated news cuttings, and imagined he was hiring the heroic Yates of the Yard of popular newspaper lore circa 2008. (You may since have developed suspicions as to why he was so popular with certain of those papers.) The second explanation is that the king is secretly a self-saboteur who wishes to be overthrown by protesters. Because the thing about Yates of the Yard, as closer students of his oeuvre will have noted, is that he never gets his man. I’m sure he’ll have binbags of evidence of people plotting against the king, and will spend at least 20 minutes deciding that there’s nothing to see here.

     Delicious
   • tc 3.2

     22 April 2012 at 5:39 pm

     F1 just seems like a relic of a passing era of excess and loud impractical objects being hurtled around a track for the pleasure of uber geeks, the rich and famous and TV.

     Serious racing allows passing and driver skill determining the outcome not he who has the best technology. They keep altering the rules to make it sort of competitive but as Melbourne have found out at 50 mill p.a. to host it ain’t worth it so Berne has to cuddle up to the oil barons unless he wants a much reduced calendar.
4. just saying 4

   22 April 2012 at 8:45 am

   Sad news: http://news.yahoo.com/aboriginal-teens-shot-sydney-police-033712949.html

   Made me think of this haunting song –

   “Maralinga” Paul Kelly live 2012:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkFgzF6-gxs
   • Draco T Bastard 4.1

     22 April 2012 at 12:15 pm

     What’s sad about it? A couple of idiots got themselves shot for being a danger to the rest of the community.
     • just saying 4.1.1

       22 April 2012 at 1:30 pm

       Is that how you see it?
       The driver was 14, and I understand that he was known to the police who were chasing the vehicle when it left the road, as were all the youths in the car.
       The police opened fire on the passengers. Hard to see how that was in the interest of public safety. Hard to imagine a similar scenario involving euro-aussie youth.
       • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1

         22 April 2012 at 2:28 pm

         The driver was 14…

         And had just run over and hospitalised a woman on the footpath.

         The police opened fire on the passengers.

         No, they opened fire on the car. And, no, I don’t have any sympathy for the passengers either.

         Hard to imagine a similar scenario involving euro-aussie youth.

         The charge of racism may be accurate but then the police did have to stop them and they didn’t have a lot of choice on how. What did you expect them to do? Stand in front of the car, hand up yelling stop perhaps?
         • just saying 4.1.1.1.1

           22 April 2012 at 7:41 pm

           Far from homicidal rage, kids in this situation (and even adults) are usually operating out of blind panic.
           How exactly does shooting the driver stop the car, or get it back on the road in this situation anyway? What could be achieved other than even more death and injury?

           Need more info than I’ve been able to find, obviously.

           But 14 Draco. And the the cops knew he was a terrified kid.
           • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1.1.1

             22 April 2012 at 7:55 pm

             How exactly does shooting the driver stop the car

             You severely injure or kill the driver so that the driver can no longer actively and effectively operate the vehicle.

             But 14 Draco. And the the cops knew he was a terrified kid.

             Being 14 and terrified does not make a car driven into a crowded footpath any less of a lethal weapon. Remember in NZ, a 14 year old is considered responsible and mature enough to look after young children in the home.
             • just saying …

               22 April 2012 at 9:31 pm

               You severely injure or kill the driver so that the driver can no longer actively and effectively operate the vehicle

               So you mean you hope he can no longer press the accelerator? Doesn’t stop the car or get it onto the road. Maybe, seeing as the kid was fleeing from the cops, backing the fuck off might have been a more effective strategy.

               …14 year old is considered responsible and mature enough to look after young children in the home. And that is the only “adult” privilege a 14 year old is allowed. Can’t drink, drive, have sex, vote, gamble, smoke, leave school…….. but can be shot down like an animal with no obvious advantage to the pedestrians in danger.

               Were you an adult at 14 CV?
               I sure as hell wasn’t.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 22 April 2012 at 11:55 pm

                 I have a real simple rule, which boils down to not fucking off people with firearms.

                 I’m pretty sure I had that rule when I was 14 as well, having been young in countries where it was routine for law enforcement and security guards to pack heat.

                 Were you an adult at 14 CV?
                 I sure as hell wasn’t.

                 At 14 years of age I also knew that it was best to follow police instructions. Didn’t you? Even though you weren’t legally an “adult” yet?
           • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.1.2

             22 April 2012 at 9:45 pm

             How exactly does shooting the driver stop the car…

             Two ways:
             1.) He realizes that there is no way out and stops the car
             2.) Being no longer able to control the car, he crashes

             Both ways result in less chance of other people being maimed or killed. Considering the danger he was to other people, age doesn’t come into it.
             • ianmac …

               22 April 2012 at 11:09 pm

               The was stationary. The police walked up to the window and fired. Nothing to do with stopping the car.
               • McFlock …

                 22 April 2012 at 11:19 pm

                 Really? Link?
               • bad12 …

                 22 April 2012 at 11:30 pm

                 My view of it from the TV3 news clip was the same, looked like a deliberate execution,

                 The car obviously was not in gear and was stationary when the shots were fired through the windscreen,

                 the drivers foot went down on the gas pedal and stayed that way with the car revving like hell after He,(the driver), had been shot twice,the car wasn’t moving despite all the revving…
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   22 April 2012 at 11:46 pm

                   TV footage? I didn’t see it.

                   But from the sounds of it, the police force over there is in a lot of trouble.
                   • bad12 …

                     22 April 2012 at 11:58 pm

                     Don’t know about the ‘trouble’ bit for the Oz plods, justification for such shootings are usually found, much like the shootings on the Auckland motorway were ‘found’ to be justified,

                     The plod with all the braid and silverware shown on the TV3 news clip made mention that the cars occupants had been involved in previous armo’s and it will be interesting to see if anyone in the car was carrying firearms…
                   • McFlock …

                     23 April 2012 at 12:00 am

                     Often a bunch of cocks, and with a legacy of being corrupt as hell.
                       
                     But I can’t find any footage of the shooting on the interwebz – lots of the aftermath. but nothing of the actual incident.
                         
                     So I’m not sure where “The was stationary. The police walked up to the window and fired. Nothing to do with stopping the car” came from.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     23 April 2012 at 12:04 am

                     And let’s also remember that the drivers ran down a 29 year old woman who suffered significant chest injuries when pinned under the vehicle.

                     I saw a real stupid incident on the roads tonight, involving a couple of quite young, drunk guys. A serious life threatening accident accident could have been caused if things had happened just a bit differently.

                     Both children and parents need to remember their responsibilities to each other and to society.
                   • bad12 …

                     23 April 2012 at 12:16 am

                     Crazy kids,better throw the lot of them in Borstal, ya never know there might be A John A lee among them some place,

                     Can’t see any justification tho in blowing the kid away for hitting the woman,summary justice is the thing of B grade cowboy movies and such should stay firmly in that realm,

                     In a heavily armed society the plod that pulled the trigger is making it just that much little more likely that a month down the road some crazy kid is going to unload a full magazine into one of his fellow officers on some routine traffic stop…
5. logie97 5

   22 April 2012 at 9:06 am

   Designer stubble is obviously back .. woohoo
   Obviously Gillette and Philips no longer sponsor this over-paid indulged group.
   http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/21/bahrain-gp-sebastian-vettel-pole
   • Tiger Mountain 5.1

     22 April 2012 at 10:46 am

     What a bunch of self pleasurers the once mighty F1 lot have become, the ‘pique’ of mega millions professional sport, this is where it ends up. Empty stands while the streets are full of locals and immigrant workers battling the state for basic rights.

     Why don’t they retire the whole circus and just make it virtual for those that must watch these robotic spoilt tax exiles.
6. Te Reo Putake 6

   22 April 2012 at 9:11 am

   Sad to hear of the death of John Haigh. While it would be fair to say he made his living as a QC advising the wealthy, as a younger lawyer, he was tireless in his support of workers and their unions, as his father Frank had been before him. Saved my arse a couple of times, for sure!
   • Frida 6.1

     22 April 2012 at 9:33 am

     Agreed Te Reo. A fine lawyer and a gentleman. A sad loss
     • Tiger Mountain 6.1.1

       22 April 2012 at 10:56 am

       John did great work for unions and union members with often tricky injuctions etc in the 80s to early 90s. I only looked askance at his later clients when they started including the odd bent copper. But you have to be guided by his peers regard, the best of lawyers take on the most appalling of customers.

       Condolences etc.
7. Dv 7

   22 April 2012 at 9:51 am

   Anther successful education project by the nacts NOT.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/6786393/Few-parents-prosecuted-over-truancy
8. David 8

   22 April 2012 at 10:03 am

   For all we love to bag Granny Herald, and for all the times its reaction and lack of real depth in understanding how the neoliberal reforms are continuing to polarise Auckland (and the rest of the country) into the haves and have nots, there are times and certain kinds of issues when the Herald does its job of being the Auckland civic watchdog very well indeed.

   Once again this morning their editorial around the casino is probing, and shows a level of social awareness and responsibility that you have to acknowledge:
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10800530

   Other articles dig into the issue from other angles: questioning losing a theatre space, actual jobs created, etc.

   And they learn, because they work a local beat: Brian Rudman got off to an awful start with his articles on light rail (called something like “Last chance to stop the trains”) arguing the need to vote John Banks in ahead of Christine Fletcher, whose responsibility in dealing with Auckland’s actual problems had turned her into some kind of public transport convert. Now, Brian is the most cogent voice on many aspects of civic development NZ has.

   Simon Collins is the only senior journalist we have who writes from a really informed position about social policy. He knows policy detail, he weighs things, he knows real people who are who are involved with eg the benefit system, he does the research, he provokes and grounds debate in this area better than anyone else in the mainstream media.

   Yes, I expect to be quoted on this Herald- liking when the worm turns next time: but compared to the Dom Post (whose editorial team often seem convinced they have the inside line/ wisdom of Prometheus, but are often wrong and reactionary with it), I would say that Herald’s editorial folk are more than capable of some useful civic voice.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10800530
   • kiwi_prometheus 8.1

     22 April 2012 at 10:46 am

     They publish Bernard Hickey articles, so they are doing something right.

     Labour should get BH to formulate their economic policy instead of going with neo classic lite.
     • Tiger Mountain 8.1.1

       22 April 2012 at 1:59 pm

       You are politically illiterate and or trolling k_p, Bernard Hickey only began to seriously critique the ‘banksters’ in recent times after they (finance capital) almost crashed the world economy in 2008.
       • the pink postman 8.1.1.1

         22 April 2012 at 4:14 pm

         I have known Bernard since he was a young boy .We are friends of his family and he was a close friend of our son. However his politics even then was very Right-wing.He has certainly mellowed but I think underneath he is still National inclined.
   • Campbell Larsen 8.2

     22 April 2012 at 10:49 am

     David – while it is refreshing to see something resembling ‘useful civic voice’ from the Herald editorial it is far from being hook free. Take the following passage for example:

     “The liquor and gambling industries thrive at our well-documented social cost.”

     True.

     “Their expensively contrived advertising imagery depicts both as part of a vibrant and happy social life – which of course they are; plenty of people gain great pleasure and do minimal harm to themselves or anyone else by participating in such pursuits.”

     Hang on a minute – this kind of contradicts the previous sentence, or at least makes light of the ‘cost’ – and how? By referring to ‘plenty of people’ – I don’t want to get into a stat battle here but the MOH has this to say:

     “The Ministry of Health estimates 25 percent of New Zealand drinkers aged between 12-65 years are heavy drinkers, consuming large amounts of alcohol on a typical drinking occasion. Other estimates have put the number of Kiwis binge drinking at over 50 percent.”

     And when it comes to gambling the figures are worse – approx 10% of the population are regular continuous gamblers – the kind most at risk from addiction, and 60% of these are likely to develop a gambling problem in their lifetime.

     So actually quite a lot of people potentially have a problem with drinking and over half of those who gamble regularly will have a problem with that too – not something to be lightly dismissed by claiming that they are part of a ‘vibrant and happy social life’

     As for the Heralds regurgitated “show us the money” the whole point is that its not about the bloody money – sure the fact that the convention centre business case does not stack up financially is relevant, but the catchphrase was nauseating the first time, and no better now. We deserve better than one liners from old Tom Cruise films from the writers of editorials in our newspapers.
9. captain hook 9

   22 April 2012 at 2:07 pm

   todays msn poll is should marijuana be decriminalised and the answer should be yes.
   dope has caused more troubl ein this country than it ihas been worth.
   the bluenoses, the bumblers and the authoritarians have had a field day
   as soon as it is legalised and made the concern of the community and allotted an appropriate place the better.
   as it stands it wastes police time, and confuses people about the evils of real drugs like coke and smack and speed not to mention alcohol and tobacco.
   • joe90 9.1

     22 April 2012 at 4:20 pm

     Cab Calloway – Reefer Man (1932)

     Leroy ‘Stuff’ Smith – You’se A Viper (1937)

     Fraternity Of Man – Don’t Bogart Me (1969)

     Brewer & Shiply – One Toke Over the Line (1971)

     New Riders Of The Purple Sage – Panama Red (1973)
10. Morrissey 10

    22 April 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Paul Holmes fails to impress One Direction fans

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6DnfVA3G_U&feature=g-logo&context=G29a2636FOAAAAAAABAA

    Anyone who has watched Paul Holmes salivating after pop stars and celebrities in the past will not be surprised to see him making a fool of himself as he does here. Over the years, Holmes has debased himself for a galaxy of celebrities, from the mediocre to the sinister, including Dame Kiri, Shania Twain, President Bill Clinton, Peter Jackson, Gordon Ramsay, Alistair Campbell and—perhaps most toe-curlingly awful of all, an extended live on air paean to the Christchurch-based Russian-born songstress Yulia, the closest anyone has ever come, albeit unwittingly, to rendering on screen a letter to Penthouse Forum.

    In this interview with Harry and Niall of One Direction, however, Holmes is comparatively restrained. Nevertheless, there is still something here for Holmes-watchers, and connoisseurs of the inane in general. If you have any sense of the absurd, you will appreciate the following gems:

    1.) “It’s feet on the ground stuff, isn’t it.”

    2.) “Tell Louie I’m working hard here.” (A discomfited Holmes says that when one of the One Direction boys starts to playfully sabotage the interview. He smiles nervously and keeps calm on this occasion, but Holmes-watchers will remember his enraged bawling—“Children, STOP IT, we are trying to WORK here!”—as primary school kids skylarked all around him during a live cross somewhere in the rural North Island on his pisspoor—now defunct—Television One show Holmes.)

    3.) “This shouting girls thing, this screaming girls thing: is it hard to cope with?” (This question was written for him by Tony “Boot Boy” Veitch, who has also had to cope with the screaming of women, but in a different context.)

    The girls who love One Direction were clearly not impressed by the hate talk legend….

    One girl, ‪xMissLexi‬ attracted 26 thumbs up endorsements in just a few hours for this comment: “I swear to god if the interviewer interrupts one more fucking time there are going to be some serious
    issues.”

    A little while later, one “hannnahspanner” commented…

    “I know right, god i hate him for being so RUDE!!!it is embarrassing.”
11. CentreOfLeft 11

    22 April 2012 at 3:23 pm

    I was reading Bomber’s review of The Nation/Q&A when he quipped about Jane Clifton and there being life after Murray McCully…

    Wait… Jane and Muzza are no longer a power couple?
    • deuto 11.1

      22 April 2012 at 6:30 pm

      Don’t know the details and cannot be bothered researching it as I am not that interested, but I understand that they separated about 2 – 3 years ago after 20+ years as a “power couple”, as you described them.
12. bad12 12

    22 April 2012 at 4:12 pm

    One of Slippery’s bookends, Gerry Brownlee is in news yet again for being the bully boy, this time during a media interview,

    Its in the Tories nature when under pressure to turn septic,resort to abuse and then when all else fails retreat into ‘standover’ tactics,

    The other bookend, Joyce has been trying to take the heat off of their Slippery master by fronting the ‘casino catastrophe’ on behalf of National over the weekend,and, I wonder if Brownlee’s latest bout of over-projecting His Personality(or lack of such), is simply the tactics of the National Government to divert attention away from the abysmal performance of Slippery doing backroom deals with the card sharps and His pathetically insipid attempts at defending such sleazy deal making…
13. Jim Nald 13

    22 April 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Christchurch, Market Forces and Gerry’s Farces

    Important to point out this:
    “Developers applaud Gerry”
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/6783907/Developers-applaud-Gerry

    Be nervous. Be very nervous.
    And, for eg:

    “I see no real need in putting height restrictions. Nobody’s going to build anything the market doesn’t want and nobody is going to be allowed anything that isn’t structurally very very sound.”
14. Jim Nald 14

    22 April 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Another gem and own goal by Gerry. Here, at his best in revealing his psychological state of projecting and dumping his hysteria onto others that he needs to address within himself.

    “All of your hysteria there won’t change the fact that we asked the Christchurch City Council to come up with a draft plan for the CBD …..”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/christchurch-earthquake/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502981&objectid=10800629
15. Southern Limits 15

    22 April 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Even The Economist is increasingly discussing peak oil now: http://www.economist.com/node/21553034
16. james 111 16

    22 April 2012 at 5:19 pm

    Good to see Peter Slipper has stood down as speaker of the house in Australia no room for sexual predators in Politics. Going to make it very interesting for Julia Gillard now
    • mike e 16.1

      22 April 2012 at 5:53 pm

      jturd no comment on nick smith
      • james 111 16.1.1

        22 April 2012 at 6:18 pm

        Should never have resigned dont believe he is a bender though as far as I know
        • fender 16.1.1.1

          22 April 2012 at 6:29 pm

          Looks like Nick has been on many benders judging by his drinkers face james.
      • fender 16.1.2

        22 April 2012 at 6:22 pm

        That would be too close to home for jturd. He likes to search the word labour on the web and try use results to discredit NZ Labour. Prize fool is james.

        Interesting he uses the word predator when just last week he admitted to stalking a EMPU delegate.

        Play his silly game and tell him France is likely to have a left-wing Govt in a few days by the looks.
17. Bob 17

    22 April 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Duncan going from TV to Radio, voluntarily or shoved?

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8455321/garner-leaves-3-news-for-radio-gig
    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      22 April 2012 at 10:51 pm

      Going from nationwide TV to a radio gig is not generally seen as a forward step in media career circles.
18. Draco T Bastard 18

    22 April 2012 at 6:20 pm

    Another indication that Western MSM is biased.

    Although the Vioxx scandal certainly did generate several days of newspaper headlines and intermittently returned to the front pages as the resulting lawsuits gradually moved through our judicial system, the coverage still seemed scanty relative to the number of estimated fatalities, which matched America’s total losses in the Vietnam War. In fact, the media coverage often seemed considerably less than that later accorded to the Chinese infant food scandal, which had caused just a handful of deaths on the other side of the world.

    In this case protecting the capitalists while condemning the commun1st dictators.
19. Salsy 19

    22 April 2012 at 7:04 pm

    Enoying the live chat with Garner..

    What happened to Keys cycling tack down NZ
    Sunday April 22, 2012 6:52 Steve
    6:52

    Duncan Garner:
    Steve
    It was a joke – never happened – 4000 jobs? what jobs … sounds familiar …900 jobs at sky city casino deal?
20. Jenny 20

    22 April 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Coal hearted killer

    A dirty, dusty, deadly, deceitfull, business marked by bullying, greed, fear, over it all, the dreadful pall of global warming and climate change. In my opinion the price is just to high and this industry must be consigned to the dust bin of history.

    …. as a Royal Commission of Inquiry investigates the cause of the tragedy – as well as a raft of issues relating to the mine’s safety procedures, design and the actions of former management – Mudge’s parents have gone public with an aborted plan to have the mine closed down.

    Just weeks before the initial explosion at Pike River on November 19, 2010, a group of Pike River miners and contractors – including Mudge – voiced their shared concerns over the mine at a private barbecue.

    “They were all talking about safety at Pike River. Stu said something like, ‘The gas levels are terrible, she is going to blow . . . we should be doing something about it’,” Mudge’s mother, Carol Rose, told the Sunday Star-Times.

    Stu’s father, Steve Rose, added: “They said, ‘OK, we will do it. We will go in on Monday morning and shut the mine down.’ ”

    But the concerned delegation of Pike River miners never made it to the Labour Department.

    Steve said that the day following the barbecue, the men realised such a move could end their mining careers. “It was like, ‘S—, we will be blacklisted, we will never get another job in mining, no one will ever touch us,’ ” he said.

    “They wanted to do something. But experience had shown them in the mine that people that put their head above the parapet got shot.

    “They needed that money to pay the bills. The loss for them would have been considerable if they had got fired.”

    Carol said: “They all had mortgages to pay and families to raise. What were they going to do if they raised the flag and were told, ‘On your bike.’ Because that is what happened.

    “If anybody challenged [management], that is it, mate, you were down the road.”

    Steve said on the “face of it”, working at Pike River was a good deal.

    Miners were being reasonably paid, with some being given company shares and offered bonuses.

    “Stu saw it as a career path,” he said. “And from the outside looking in, we looked at it and thought, great.”

    Seventeen months on from the Pike River disaster, the Roses are honouring their son’s memory with an unflinching resolve to fight for justice.

    And this is coal mining in a first world country.
    • bad12 20.1

      22 April 2012 at 8:44 pm

      Whilst having refrained recently from commenting on Pike River while the Royal Commission deliberates on the evidence they have heard I will ask readers to consider this,

      Methane when combusted is odorless, 3 witnesses have given evidence to the Pike River Royal Commission,(one who had been into the main tunnel after the 1 st explosion),that after the first explosion at the mine there was a strong smell of burned diesel from within the mine,

      There are of course only 2 substances within underground mining that are going to give off a strong smell of diesel after having been combusted,

      The first being diesel itself,the second I will leave you to ponder for a while until the Royal commission produces its findings…
      • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1

        22 April 2012 at 9:59 pm

        Methane when combusted is odorless

        Methane, once it’s combusted, is commonly referred to as carbon dioxide and water both of which are odourless.

        that after the first explosion at the mine there was a strong smell of burned diesel from within the mine

        Well, yeah, burning coal will smell similar to burning diesel. Similar chemical make up and impurities within each.
        • bad12 20.1.1.1

          22 April 2012 at 10:23 pm

          Reading the evidence given to the Pike River Royal Commission by the South African electrician sent into the mine to see why communications and the data stream had ceased from the mine might be an eye opener…
          • McFlock 20.1.1.1.1

            22 April 2012 at 10:31 pm

            Dude, it ain’t the sort of thing to be smug about. You seem to think you’ve made a dramatic connection somewhere. Either come out with specifics or whack off about a different topic.
            • bad12 20.1.1.1.1.1

              22 April 2012 at 10:49 pm

              As above,reading the evidence given to the Pike River royal commission by the South African electrician sent into the mine after the 1st explosion might get you thinking…
              • McFlock …

                22 April 2012 at 10:53 pm

                Given that you obviously can’t remember the person’s name, let alone link to the relevant transcript, want to share the cliffnotes?
          • bad12 20.1.1.1.2

            22 April 2012 at 10:52 pm

            PS, I have burned quite a bit of the stuff,coal that is,both in an open fire and in a coal range over a 2 year period while living down South,even when I filled the house up with smoke from having damped down the range with the wrong flue i never smelt any diesel like smell…
            • lprent 20.1.1.1.2.1

              23 April 2012 at 1:18 am

              You were using dry house coals right?

              Try wet coal – which smells quite different. Shift up to a higher grade of coal burning. Then add in leachates that burn smelling like bunker oil. Then add a methane explosion that also burns all of those plus any coal dust. The only thing you can be sure of is that won’t be odorless and that it will not smell like your house fire.
21. deuto 21

    22 April 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Is the worm turning – or am I being too optomistic? As well as some of the Herald’s opinion bits today (and recently), I just found this bit on Stuff from Anthony Hubbard also today and was somewhat surprised at its anti-Key tone.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/6787292/People-are-getting-angry-John
22. DH 22

    22 April 2012 at 8:08 pm

    This is worth a read for those who think NZ doesn’t have much corruption;

    The inside man

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6785852/The-inside-man

    Very perceptive words here from an ex-Policeman;

    “I’m embarrassed that we used to run around chasing guys for $1000 they ripped off Social Welfare,” he says. “The big money is heading out the back door through softly regulated industries full of people in suits who should know better.”

    All of the govt regulatory bodies are like Internal Affairs. Commerce Commission get thousands of complaints each year, many about crooked business people, and they do nothing either. They see no evil, speak no evil….
23. Pete George 23

    22 April 2012 at 8:23 pm

    TV3/Reid research poll tonight:

    Party Support
    National 49.8% (+2.3%)
    Labour 29.4% (nc)
    Green 14.1% (+0.8%)
    ACT 0.2% (nc)
    Maori 1.6% (+0.3%)
    United Future 0.0% (nc)
    Mana 0.9% (-0.4%)
    NZ First 2.3% (-2.7%)
    Conservative 1.1% (-0.3%)

    Preferred PM
    Key 44.2% (-1.6%)
    Shearer 10.4% (+0.3%)

    Leadership Approval
    Key – 59.9% (-0.6%) doing well vs 24.0% (-2.0%) doing poorly – net rating is +35.9% (-2.6%)
    Shearer – 32.5% (-2.6%) doing well vs 26.2% (+9.0%) doing poorly – net positive is +6.3% (-11.6%)

    http://curiablog.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/3-news-reid-research-poll-april-2012/

    National (surprisingly) and Labour (not surprisingly) about the same as the Morgan poll.
    Greens up a bit, NZF down on Morgan. But overall not a big change.

    If Labour can’t make any inroads into National support with whats been in the news over the last couple of weeks then maybe some serious thought has to be put in to strategies. Failed for the last three years, still failing. Leadership will come up in discussions but the problem is deeper than that.
    • Jilly Bee 23.1

      22 April 2012 at 8:52 pm

      Pete George – I have read your posts for a few months on this blog and have grown more infuriated by the week. You’re supposed to be a cheerleader for United Future, I recall that you got just over 100 votes last election in the Dunedin seat you stood in, yet you insist on bagging Labour for their ratings, which aren’t exactly setting the world on fire at the moment, but I wish you would concentrate on UF’s 0.0% rating if the latest poll is anything to go by. Are you really a NAct supporter in drag? It appears that Act and United Future have the same future politically speaking.
      • Pete George 23.1.1

        22 April 2012 at 9:12 pm

        You’re supposed to be a cheerleader for United Future

        Who told you that? Sure, I stood for UF last election (and got a par for the course result unsurprisingly, a bit more than you claim) and I respond to queries about UF here. But I act indepently mostly, as I have long before I joined UF. In fact currently I am strongly querying a UF position on asset sales.

        I support some National things and people and I think voted National once, but I’m not a National supporter as such. I’ve never voted Act nor supported them. I’ve more often than not voted Labour and I supported the Clark government for the first two terms. I’ve also voted Greens.

        UF always seem to get 0% in the TV3 poll, I don’t know why that is – TV3 never even reveal what question they ask. I know one poll excludes UF from it’s list of options. But UF tends to be around the 0-1% range in various polls. That’s not important to me at the moment.

        I think the most important thing in NZ party politics at the moment is Labour’s non-recovery from 2008. I’d like to see as strong a Labour party as possible in opposition so they can contribute positively to Parliament, adequately rebuild and prepare for their next time in government. I am still disapointed with Labour’s lack of progress and their clinging to failed strategies. I’m not a fan of their level of attack politics. They would be more effective if they saved theirn efforts for things that really mattered, ie picked their fights.
    • bad12 23.2

      22 April 2012 at 9:06 pm

      Even TV3 don’t believe this poll, if they did it would have lead the news hour on 3 tonight,there are 2 points I simply do not believe in this poll, that National have gained more support than it had on election night,and, that NZFirst has lost over half the support it had on election night,

      To us its just another in a long line of ”dont bother voting its a done deal polls” that the Montgomery Burns owners of the mass media have been using to good effect to turn people away from thinking that their vote might just make that difference,

      I see the situation as this, without the 3 Maori Party MP’s votes, National have a knife edge majority of Dunne and Banks,

      Its still the same 2% ballgame that it was leading up to the 2011 election and a 3rd term for National in 2014 will still require the Maori Party support of 3 seats that that party is unlikely to have at the 2014 election…
      • seeker 23.2.1

        22 April 2012 at 11:06 pm

        @bad12.9.06pm

        ‘To us its just another in a long line of ”dont bother voting its a done deal polls” that the Montgomery Burns owners of the mass media have been using to good effect to turn people away from thinking that their vote might just make that difference.”

        Exactly bad12. I felt they only televised this ‘poll’ this to make Key, Joyce and all who sail in them feel good about their decomposing selves. Rather like a spray of room freshener, to stop the smell of cronyism and undemocratic dealings of our prime leader seeping through the TV set on a Sunday evening. …………………..
        “There we are Johnny and Steve, nicely deodorised and spun back into the position you believe you are entitled to and now you are already for a new week of manipulation, ignorance and the use of New Zealand for our own ends- and all courtesy of TV3 non news.”
        • bad12 23.2.1.1

          22 April 2012 at 11:23 pm

          Easy to see why they pay the newsreaders such unhealthy large sums of the filthy lucre to faithfully read this stuff to the masses without actually chucking up big time or breaking into gales of mad laughter ae,

          The closing dramatics from tonights TV3 clip covering the latest poll offering was the usual ramped up voice giving the usual ramped up mind numbing ”with these figures National could Govern alone”…
    • DH 23.3

      22 April 2012 at 10:21 pm

      I don’t know who wrote those figures up but they look meaningless to me. They add up to 99.4% which means they’ve removed the ‘undecided’ respondents. No way in hell do only 0.6% say they wouldn’t vote for any of them. It’s certainly not a measure of approval for this Govt, not a measure of anything really.

      Why are people concerned about ratings now anyway? They’re not going to do any good to anyone, next election is 2 1/2 yrs away.
24. Jimmie 24

    22 April 2012 at 8:34 pm

    Surface fixit/plaster for Labour = replace Shearer with Cunliffe

    Unfortunately plasters don’t heal gangrene – major surgery is required.

    Simple suggestions for Labour:

    – Consider a name change – brand damaged
    – Consider a major clean out of caucus whether by resignation and bring in new folk from the list, or lots of retirements in 2014.
    – A full overhaul of policy to promote a progressive agenda that takes in to account the reality of life in 2012.
    – Also policy that isn’t warmed up leftovers from a past era (50’s-70’s)
    – Also policy that isn’t a left swinging knee jerk reaction to what the Nats do.
    – A leader who actually believes, promotes, and is fully enthusiastic about the policies he/she stands for and who is not afraid to come down on their own team members when necessary.
    – A caucus who know what the words discipline/team work/hard work/good character actually mean.
    – Work on 2 way communication with grass roots supporters so that they can share/push the vision.

    Without at least some of these things, Labour is like a ship that has had a fire at sea – its still floating but sure is dead in the water and going no where fast.
    • james 111 24.1

      22 April 2012 at 8:54 pm

      Totally agree problem is greater than Shearer Greens are now becoming left party of choice. Also fully agree with this comment below
      A full overhaul of policy to promote a progressive agenda that takes in to account the reality of life in 2012.

      Labour needs to realise that employers aren’t evil, and it OK for people to make money with out throwing in the envy card every time.
      They only seem to have one revenue policy that is tax people to death ,and if they are still moving tax them again.
      Haven’t seen one idea from them that will grow the economy

      [Take a week off for playing the ‘envy’ card. Idiot sloganeering no longer tolerated…RL]
      • KJT 24.1.1

        23 April 2012 at 8:30 am

        There is envy all right. The wealthy are so envious of what we have left, they are grabbing that too.

        The US economy was growing at its fastest rate ever when the rich were taxed at 91%.

        Havn’t you noticed what has happened since the tax cuts for the rich?

        Transferring money from the rich, who hoard it or waste it in pointless money gambling schemes, to those who spend locally, is a proven method of growing an economy.

        Tax and spend is exactly what we should do. It is how New Zealand got out of the 30’s depression ahead of the USA.

        Instead of borrowing, selling, giving money to rich cronies and hoping the confidence fairy returns.
        • Colonial Viper 24.1.1.1

          23 April 2012 at 8:47 am

          Yep. Asset/capital taxes and spending that money back into circulation is the only way ahead.

          If the largest holders of capital refuse that approach, the Government should simply print the money it needs to keep the economy going, into the economy, while ensuring it is directed into productive areas which increase efficient operation and competition within the economy.

          If at some stage excess money supply appears to be driving inflation the Government can either enter a specific market itself to increase competition and/or withdraw money from the supply by increasing taxes and savings rates further.

          No problem.
      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 24.1.2

        23 April 2012 at 8:34 am

        Idiot sloganeering no longer tolerated.

        Well, I look forward to this being applied evenhandedly.

        [lprent: Well this site was never meant to be an even playing field (read the about), we’re interested in views from outside the labour movement if they add to the debate and fools being repetitive simply don’t do that. But have you ever noticed that james111 or yourself get relatively lenient bans compared to others with similar opinions? It is because we’re not looking at the opinions as much as the behaviour.

        Moderators tend to find that a simple warning is enough to get most of the commentators attention and change in behaviour (which is what we want). Most of the commentators are from the centre and left and respond to relatively simple and easy guidance about what is tolerated. Whereas often those believing in the principles of the Divine Right usually require a frigging club and a lot of force to pound through to them that they don’t make the rules – we do.

        So experience has taught the moderators to use whatever is most effective on different types of people to achieve our site objectives of having interesting robust debate. That is why you’ll see differences in handling depending on peoples behaviour. Someone like philu or Wayne/Mark fit the profile of being stupid egotists who just won’t listen and they get permanent bans because it reduces our workload. People who do listen but only after being banned like SHG will get bans of increasingly longer spans until we find where they either leave or listen. Others respond immediately to [warnings] and still others you only have to write a cutting comment about their behaviour.

        In short, even handedness is from the perspective of the moderators – not from the perspective of the commentators. If you respond to less draconian techniques then we’ll use less. If it takes more draconian measures, then we’ll use more. The primary aim is for us to use the least amount of effort to get a desired result. ]
        • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrel 24.1.2.1

          23 April 2012 at 9:07 pm

          K. But the rule is “no idiot sloganeering”, right?
          • insider 24.1.2.1.1

            23 April 2012 at 9:22 pm

            Blame the polls. The number of bannings seems to have a relationship to the popularity of the govt. three polls against the received standardistas wisdom over the weekend and i’ve counted three bans today for relatively trivial things. Moderator grumpiness index seems set to high…
    • Salsy 24.2

      22 April 2012 at 8:56 pm

      What? National tanked at 21% and came back. Labour isnt damaged as much as NZ is still in love with Key – They never did anything actually wrong. Shearer at least should take this as a serious request by the public to get off the fence stand up and fight back.
    • bad12 24.3

      22 April 2012 at 9:44 pm

      I think Labour far from having a need to completely re-invent itself should simply firmly focus upon what had the Party leading the left of New Zealand politics from the coal mines of the West Coast into Governing the country of New Zealand and cementing into place the physical manifestation of the principals of social justice to protect the most vulnerable members of our society, much of which still stands albeit under constant attack from the right,

      There are a million voters who have not voted for 2 elections even though they are registered to do so,

      The missing million sure as hell aint going to vote for National, an obvious seeing as they did not vote for that Party despite the election bribe of tax cuts in 2008 and didn’t vote for national again in 2011 despite the election bribe of being able to tuck into the part sale of the most profitable of state owned assets,

      Labour and the Greens need find out what it is that will turn out the missing million to the ballot box on election day 2014, its really that simple,

      I have the view that it is my democratic duty to do so,vote that is,even at times when what is on offer at the ballot box is unpalatable,

      The view here is that we should make voting a matter of legal requirement just as registering to do so is…
      • Jimmie 24.3.1

        23 April 2012 at 8:53 am

        Why are these people uninspired to turn out and vote for Labour? Get this answer right and 2014 belongs to Labour.
    • Colonial Viper 24.4

      23 April 2012 at 1:22 am

      Jimmie gives Labour a whole lot of recommendations straight from the Right Wing. Who are scared to death of Cunliffe. (Notice how Cunliffe was put up front and centre by Jimmie haha)
      • Jimmie 24.4.1

        23 April 2012 at 8:47 am

        I agree with you CV that Cunliffe would be a more effective leader than Shearer – but would just changing their leader be enough to make the voters go, ‘ oh, yeah, Labour, we ditched them at the last two elections, but now that Cunliffe is in charge we’ll come and vote for them again.

        I dunno – I think its a lot to have riding on the shoulders of one man – and what if Cunliffe fails to inspire the public? What if the anyone but Cunliffe brigade doesn’t pull their weight heading into 2014? Its a risk and 2017 is a long way away.

        I know I am right wing with my view on life, but the advice I previously posted was just wanting to be helpful, as NZ needs strong parties from both sides of the fence, and at the moment Labour aint cutting it. Also when we do have to have a left wing government I’d prefer one dominated by Labour and NZF rather than the Greens, so Labour needs to be strong to achieve that.

        But tell me, which of the above points do you disagree with? The policy ones probably, but the teamwork/structure/leadership points are valid and need to be faced or people will be turned off again, in 2014 and all the lefties on this blog will need to get checked for stomach ulcers after election 2014!
        • Colonial Viper 24.4.1.1

          23 April 2012 at 9:02 am

          For starters you assume that Cunliffe would have done the same things in the same style as Shearer has done. Not a chance mate.

          And quit pretending you’ve suddenly become a politically fair minded actor lol
25. prism 25

    22 April 2012 at 9:17 pm

    I wondered why over 100 comments. It’s just old Pete George. Also the right winger Kiwi Prometheus. As that guy was supposed to have brought fire to the world the choice of name indicates that this commenter has no intention to attempt thought but merely wants to be a jerk.
26. bad12 26

    22 April 2012 at 10:01 pm

    I might have become a ‘closed shop’ when thinking about Labour Leader David Shearer but in my own defence have to say that initial media perceptions are very formative of the perception one has of people, particularly politicians, that i have not personally met,

    The Labour Leader’s appearance on the ‘comedy’ hosted by whats-his-face that abusive little far-right wing clown made me cringe for obvious reasons…

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