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Open mike 23/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:55 am, June 23rd, 2014 - 282 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

282 comments on “Open mike 23/06/2014”

  1. mickysavage 1

    So Rick Barker has denied the $100,000 auction bid and he previously confirmed that the $60,000 boat cruise was actually a meal at a work gathering on a boat.

    And Mr Liu has said that he will make no further comment about political donations or swear an affidavit outlining dollar amounts.

    So this leaves the Labour Party with having to spend precious time on an issue that is essentially not an issue. And the media have climbed in and chosen to have another kick at the left.

    Frustrating times …

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279513

    • bad12 1.1

      The donation is ”said” to have come to Labour via Liu’s lawyer’s trust account and the pressure should now go on this particular lawyer to provide proof of any donation,

      IF, there is in fact ANY donation i would suggest it will be shown to be one of ten thousand dollars and ”someone” will have inflated this into the ”claimed” $100,000,(a mistake in translation will later be forthcoming as a butte covering),

      The Editor of the Herald said on RadioNZ National this morning that they have been ”sitting on” the statement from Liu claiming to have made the donation since the Williamson resignation,

      As Liu is said to have no use of the English language it begs the question of who wrote the ”statement”…

      Edit: Tim Barnett the Labour Party secretary has said, again on RadioNZ National, that they have checked with the lawyers who ”did” donate amounts in the 100’s of 1000’s to Labour in 2007, and, they cannot find any link between the (3) law firms and Liu…

      • mickysavage 1.1.1

        And who gave it to the Herald and why it was timed at this particular time. The Herald is clearly being manipulated. Shame they do not have the gumption to report on this particular aspect of it.

        • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1

          The Herald’s editor refusing to name the source of the Liu info on Morning Report this AM. Who is he protecting here?

          • fender 1.1.1.1.1

            “Who is he protecting here?”

            The National Party! Gotta laugh how their smear campaign is unravelling. Idiots think they can make shit up to distract from the hot water they are in over corrupt practices and cash for access.

            • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1.1.1

              The real story here is the Smear Campaign, not the 11 year old letter or the mythical donations.

              • fender

                +1, precisely, and the public will turn against Key when he’s exposed for employing Tea Party tactics.

                • Kiwiri

                  A few elections ago, Nats had the exclusive brethren.
                  Playing before our eyes this time, it is the NZ Herald.

          • greywarbler 1.1.1.1.2

            I heard the Editor and I took from his comments about Liu’s – possible lack of conformity to truth or fact; inaccuracy. – that Eddy is happy to swirl around in his bag of tricks and pull out a plum from the lucky dip every few days. (I got my mixed metaphors from my lucky dip! More to come. Watch this space or nearby!)

            And the Hairy did not get all the information they presented, in May either. I think I heard that it popped up a few days ago.

            Amusing RWs, they are very flexible thinkers!. One sent an email to Radionz setting Liu up as a good citizen just donating to a good cause and Labour painted as responsible for stirring things up apparently for their own advantage. Hahaha.

      • bad12 1.1.2

        Note: There is something of an incestuous relationship becoming apparent between Slippery the Prime Minister and the NZHerald within the time-line of disclosures surrounding the Liu ”donation”,(who would have thunk it),

        IF, my memory serves me correctly, it was Slippery the PM who first raised the ”specter” of donations from Liu to Labour being ”six figures” from amidst His Amerikan sojourn even befor the Herald claimed to have the Liu ”statement”…

        • Tiger Mountain 1.1.2.1

          Slippery/ShonKey (you don’t get total naming rights here bad12) has a few things that suggest he does indeed have the capability to indulge in dirty tricks and media manipulation.

          Finance capital links, Prime Minister, minister in charge of all spooks and relations with 5 eyes snoopers, contacts with media owners and bloggers, dirtiest filthiest media company Crosby /Textor customer and all-round Hollow man.

        • bad12 1.1.2.2

          Adding to my previous note: it is obvious that the NZHerald is ”hiding” something with its refusal to let anyone from the Labour Party even view the ”alleged” statement from Liu surrounding donations,

          My previous comment mentions my view that the donation amount has been ”inflated” by persons at this stage unknown,

          i mention a figure of 10,000 dollars as a likely amount for any ”actual” donation made by Liu to the Labour Party in 2007,

          The fact is, IF there were a donation at all, and, i have some large doubts about this, the sum could have been in the range of a thousand dollars,($1000),

          Perhaps the Herald would serve its readers well by publishing the ”facts”, like where exactly, ie: to which branch of the Labour Party, was this ”supposed” donation made…

        • The Lone Haranguer 1.1.2.3

          I remember being told once

          “Never ask a question in public, unless you already know the answer”

          Winston is the master of it, and clearly Key made his comments in the full knowledge of the Liu letter and in the full knowledge of the NZ Herald having a copy.

          I wouldnt doubt for a minute that Trevor Mallard, and Bill Birch before him, have played the same tactics time and again.

          Its politics and its how its been played by the main parties for a very long time. To be fair, the Greens are the only mob who seem to avoid it, and good on them for that.

          • Tracey 1.1.2.3.1

            i believe it comes from law. Young lawyers get taught, when cross examing never ask a question you dont know the answer to and dont ask one question too many.

            • The Lone Haranguer 1.1.2.3.1.1

              I was also advised by a top Simpson Grierson lawyer that 80% of people incriminate themselves when interviewed by the Police, and they usually do it by answering more than the question actually legally requires to be answered.

              Still, he did manage to keep a very senior NZ Politician out of court a few years back. Maybe Banks needed better Counsel.

              • mickysavage

                David Jones is pretty good. I believe that Banks stuffed things up with his statement to the police.

      • alwyn 1.1.3

        “The donation is ”said” to have come to Labour via Liu’s lawyer’s trust account and the pressure should now go on this particular lawyer to provide proof of any donation,”

        Perhaps we should ask about the donations to David Cunliffe’s campaign fund.
        Should the pressure go on the lawyer who set the fund up to release the names of the donors so that DC can make a complete return to Parliament on gifts he received?

        • bad12 1.1.3.1

          Another subject changer, i would rather have Slippery the Prime Minister tell all of New Zealand from where He got the information He released to the media while sojourning in Amerika about the ”supposed” six figure donation from Liu to the Labour Party,

          As far as i know David Cunliffe has made a full disclosure surrounding donations He recieved for His successful bid to become the Labour leader,

          It is obvious to anyone with half a brain, that appears not to include you Alwyn, that giving the monies paid back to the donor who did not wish to be identified cancels that donation as having been given and thus allows for that donations non-inclusion in the register of gifts,

          Its a really ”simple” concept Alwyn and is in fact the same concept, backed by the Parliament that would allow the Green Party to return donations from those it would feel sullied by should they accept them and thus have no requirement to report such donations…

          • alwyn 1.1.3.1.1

            “that giving the monies paid back to the donor who did not wish to be identified cancels that donation as having been given and thus allows for that donations non-inclusion in the register of gifts,”

            I am not a lawyer, and am only quoting a casual opinion from a lawyer friend, but I was told that a gift had to be declared, even it was later returned or passed on to another organisation. Thus accepting and then returning a gift does NOT cancel the need to declare it.
            That is why Ministers list everything they receive, even though the PM may not allow them to keep the presents.

            I understand that Cunliffe’s reason for not declaring the amounts is that he claims not to know who the people were. Do you really believe that?
            However, assuming it is true is the reason I am suggesting we should require the person who was administering the trust to ‘fess up.

            Can you please provide a link to your comment about the Green Party? I would like to see whether they really received and then returned donations or whether they were not received in the first place

            • Tracey 1.1.3.1.1.1

              how can you genuinely only know half the story?

              NO law requiring cunliffe to declare a trust for his leadership campaign BUT against labour party rules SO he went to the five donors. Three happy to be named, and were. Two not happy so their donations refunded.

              Now you might be able to see the difference. I wont hold my breath.

              • alwyn

                I suggest you look at the Standing Orders of Parliament regarding gifts to Members of Parliament.
                They are required to declare any gift they receive, with exceptions for such things as gifts from close family members that is worth more than $500. The Trust as a whole, and by deduction at least one of the refunded amounts, was certainly more than $500.
                The money from the trust was a gift to the member and the parliamentary rules required that he at least declare the Trust’s donation.

                The question of declaring the individual members who contributed depends on whether there was a reasonable expectation that he knew who they were. If you think he didn’t know you can believe anything.
                A rule of the Labour Party does not override a Standing Order of Parliament.

                The stupidity of Cunliffe was of course to set up a Trust in the first place, after complaining long and loud about other parties using such things.

                The point is that it was the gift that had to be declared and the fact that the money was returned at a later date does not affect that in the slightest. If DC still claims he doesn’t know who the individuals were I suggest the lawyer who administered the trust should help him out.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Yes, because you’re all about dishonouring agreements, in this case a guarantee of anonymity, and then you people have the towering hypocrisy and arrogance to talk about personal responsibility.

                  The National Party makes no effort whatsoever to hide its donors from its MPs: they sell access to Ministers for fuck’s sake. What does this tell us about other parties? Nothing, but that won’t stop you smearing everyone else with your filth, will it?

                • freedom

                  Alwyn, you are keeping in mind that the trust was set up for his leadership bid? As such, it has nothing to do with the Parliamentary obligations of a Party or its MP’s. Any declarations of the trust was voluntary.

                  If I have this wrong I would really appreciate being steered in the correct direction.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Q. Were the gifts made to DC or a third party?

                    A. A third party, who then re-gifted the funds as part of the leadership campaign.

                    This was declared.

                    This is exactly the same mechanism as the Waitemata Trust, but Alwyn is a snivelling hypocrite with zero personal responsibility, so conveniently ignores this.

                    • alwyn

                      Very good young fellow.
                      You forget one thing though.
                      National stopped using the Waitemata Trust when the Electoral Law was changed.
                      Cunliffe chose to implement a Trust system to finance his campaign for the leadership although it was clearly in breach of the spirit of the law his own party had implemented.
                      It is the declaration of gifts to a Member of Parliament that he is skirting with, not the Electoral Act. If he says he can’t obey the law and tell us who made the gifts he should demand that the “Trustee” of the Trust do so.
                      Giving the money back doesn’t cut it.

                      You also say that the party guaranteed anonymity. To bad. For Cunliffe the Rules of Parliament override party rules.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      That will be why it’s been sent to the Privileges Committee, eh. No? Gosh, perhaps someone higher up than you dismissed your opinions out-of-hand. I certainly hope so, it would mean at least I have something in common with them.

                    • freedom

                      “although it was clearly in breach of the spirit of the law”

                      oh so you openly admit no law was broken then, 🙄

                    • alwyn

                      Freedom @2.25pm.
                      Of course it was in conformity to the law to set up a trust.
                      It was however, in my view at least, politically completely stupid for a number of reasons.
                      The first is that it leaves him wide open to attack for concealing details of who his financial backers were. If he is accused of being supported by, say, Kim Dotcom he can’t deny it. To do so would be implicitly admitting that he knew who it was and once he has started claiming that he doesn’t know he can’t do that. How about a claim that a donor was David Ross, the swindler from Wellington who is now doing time. Gee David keeps awful company doesn’t he?
                      The second is that he looks incredibly tight-fisted. He, even as a backbencher made about $150,000/year. His wife, a law firm partner would probably make at least $250,000. The live in a house worth $2.5 million. And he is too mean to pay his own expenses for accommodation while campaigning to be leader.
                      The third is that the Labour Party campaigned against anonymous trust fund donations to support politicians. But not for me says David.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Shorter Alwyn: I agree with David Cunliffe’s assessment that “I don’t think … a trust structure fully represented the values I would like to bring to this leadership”.

                      How feeble: paragraphs and paragraphs of lies and vacuous drivel all boil down to parroting the target’s own words.

                      What an egg.

                    • freedom

                      So alwyn, I take you will support the EDRNZ idea then? Full transparency of all donations to local and central body election funds above a $1000 threshold.

                      here is a rough sketch http://thestandard.org.nz/heres-an-idea-electoral-funding/

                  • alwyn

                    Freedom.
                    The trust was apparently set up to pay for his campaign for the leadership.
                    The money, agreed to be more than $500 was a gift to Mr Cunliffe. All MPs have an obligation under the rules of Parliament to declare any gift they receive that is more than $500. Once you accept the gift you have to declare it so a declaration of the trust is not voluntary. It has nothing to do with the party and its rules. It has to do with the obligations of an MP under the Rules of the House

                    John Banks was pinged for not declaring a gift basket in a Hong Kong hotel room because it was, apparently to his genuine surprise, worth more than $500.

                • Tracey

                  i suggest you read the cabinet manually and then come back and post your outrage that collins remains.

                  Can you quote the part of the standing orders relating to gifts to trusts. Thanks.

                  • alwyn

                    I am not sure that I really want to read the cabinet “manually”. It sounds dreadfully like a rectal examination to me.
                    I don’t have to approve of Collins. I think she is an ignorant, arrogant ass. In just the same way I think that Cunliffe is an ignorant, arrogant ass. I certainly don’t think that either of them is qualified to be PM. On the other hand I don’t think either of them has done sufficient to get the boot.
                    The Cabinet Manual says members must declare

                    “(b) a description of each gift received by the member that has an estimated market value in New Zealand of more than $500 and the name of the donor of each of those gifts (if known or reasonably ascertainable by the member)”

                    The money from the trust is certainly a gift and has to be declared. Legally that is all that is required, provided that Cunliffe is genuinely unaware of who the five donors to the trust were. If he knows I suspect he would have to tell us who they were. Once he has taken the money the gift is established and giving it back doesn’t relieve him of the obligation to declare the gift.

                    It isn’t that that is his problem of course. It is the fact that he was so stupid as to think he wouldn’t be attacked for trying to hide who his financial backers were. The Labour Party changed the Electoral Act to prevent this sort of thing in an election campaign and he is silly enough to do the same sort of thing with regard to his declaration of pecuniary interests.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Listen, egg, you don’t get to rehash drivel you’ve already backed away from on another thread.

                      Of course it was in conformity to the law to set up a trust. It was however, in my view at least, politically completely stupid…

                      Unless you want to embody National Party values and exhibit zero personal responsibility, that is.

                    • alwyn

                      Well OAB, you don’t have to read it you know.
                      I will accept that people like lprent, Mickysavage, Karol etc choose to tell me about what I can say or not say on this blog.
                      I don’t really think that you qualify as a censor.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      No skin off my nose: it’s your personal responsibility at an all time low, not mine 🙂

        • Keep up, alwyn. The donations were returned to the donors who didn’t want their names published.

        • freedom 1.1.3.3

          I read an article only this morning where Labour stated they had spoken to the lawyers involved in [fund raising] payments received and none of them could show any connection to Liu.

          For some reason, that little detail seems to have vanished in an edit.

          I have gone over every article (for the last three days ) in my history log that is remotely relevant to this issue and the passage has gone.

          If someone has it I would appreciate the link as I am not prone to [unassisted] hallucinations.

          It really is getting to the point where every article we read needs to be screen grabbed.
          Which in itself is a sad state of affairs for journalism in New Zealand. But when it means vital information that clarifies important issues is removed to facilitate the protracted confusion then what conclusion are we meant to arrive at if not there are people in the MSM who are as corrupt as those they are protecting.

          • Clemgeopin 1.1.3.3.1

            Yes, I read that info too.

            I am quite sure it was in the following article, but that part of the report you refereed to seems to have been removed now! Quite intriguing that!

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279513

            • freedom 1.1.3.3.1.1

              Yes I am fairly positive that is the article I read it in as well. Though I do not recall seeing the ‘transposed date’ comment at the time but it was there later when looking for the lawyer bit. What I find odd is I originally read it just after 8 am but there is no mention of an update or an edit.

    • karol 1.2

      Clearly the Nats (and the media) are playing this one very dirty. We need to just keep on, and get the word out there by various means: face-to-face, online, at meetings, etc.

      And the righties are gloating about the slickness and game-winning strategies of the Nats, with some here saying it’s all about “perception”. they clearly have no ethics or interest in democracy.

      I tried being critical under 3 News report on it on their website last night. then I saw that the discussion descended into righties gloating and getting the boot into Labour, with others trying to respond with facts. Became a non-discussion.

    • Grumpy 1.3

      Barnett on Hosking this morning claimed Labour has not asked Barker about his Lui boat trip and dinner because “he was on holiday”……really?

      • bad12 1.3.1

        Ah a subject changer,who would have thunk it, i realize that for one carrying your afflictions Grumpy putting your imagination to use isn’t likely to produce more than a series of Derrs and Aaaahs, but an attempt at the least has to be made,

        Imagine a boat trip for Just Rick Barker that cost 50 thousand dollars, go on, i know it probably results in a burning smell,(you have a few spare neurons to burn),you can do it,

        Imagine, imagine, NOW, detail for us Grumpy just what form of boat trip you can imagine COULD cost 50 grand, all of it spent upon Rick Barker,

        i await the results of your imagining with anticipation…

        • ianmac 1.3.1.1

          Of course it could have been the nice Mr Liu spending $50,000 on a great boat trip for Mr Barker —-but only on Planet Key.

        • grumpy 1.3.1.2

          From what Barker has described Lui had the boat crammed with his staff. Chinese business culture sometimes does this to make the Guest of Honour feel important.

          • ianmac 1.3.1.2.1

            Or more likely he was booked in for the staff cruise and popped Mr Barker in when he appeared. “I say old chap. I am shouting a fun trip for all my staff as a thankyou for a jolly good years work. Would you like to come too?”

          • bad12 1.3.1.2.2

            You are lacking a little something in that answer Grumpy, ”proof” ”fact” ”links” all these things help advance a hypothesis, as your comments now stand they are simply ”you thunk it therefore it is”,

            Poor form, it could just as well be argued that the dinner on the river might well have been planned for months by Liu and Barker showing up was a chance to try and impress Him with Liu’s largesse to His staff,

            i take it tho we now can agree that there was not 50, or any other grand amount of thousands spent by Liu on a boat-trip especially in Barker’s honor…

        • alwyn 1.3.1.3

          I remember seeing Larry Ellison on one of his America’s Cup catamarans.
          Rumour has it that that cost him about $200 million so $50,000 doesn’t sound very much at all.
          (And this comment is only meant as a joke).

      • Tracey 1.3.2

        all day friday you banged on about an affidavit. So far, no affidavit. Take a break grumpy.

    • the political-bagman of the time for labour..mike williams..was on nat-rad..

      ..and he said he had no knowledge of such a donation..

      ..and that (as expected) had that happened at the time..he says ..’cos of his fundraiser-in-chief role..that he wd have known/heard about it..

      ..and all he cd think what happened..if the donation was made..was that ‘it was not passed on’…

      ..now..that raises two questions:..

      ..the first being why the fuck wasn’t williams wheeled out days ago..?..to hose/close this down..?

      (..as he was the person who thru all monies at that time flowed..)

      ..the management of this ‘crisis’ by labour has been abysmal..

      ..they should have been wheeling williams out from the get-go..

      ..the second question needs to be asked of liu..

      ..as in..if the donation was made..

      ..who did he give/hand the money to..?

      • ianmac 1.4.1

        But he was questioned at least twice last week and said the same thing then as now!

        • phillip ure 1.4.1.1

          that was seriously under-publicised..

          ..and why isn’t the ‘well..who did he give it to/did it go to?’ question being asked..?

      • The Al1en 1.4.2

        “the management of this ‘crisis’ by labour has been abysmal.”

        That’s an interesting observation considering I and others think they’ve responded really well to the beat up story.

        Rather than revel (my interpretation) in the Herald’s claim, state what more they can do than have the boss go on tv numerous times saying that according to the info available it’s a crock and have the party president release statements to the same effect?

        • phillip ure 1.4.2.1

          williams should have been wheeled out from day one..

          “‘we’ve checked out records..and here is our money-man from the time..!’

          • The Al1en 1.4.2.1.1

            Already been answered

            “But he was questioned at least twice last week and said the same thing then as now!”

            So what more would you have done, rather than indulge in being the herald’s devil advocate?
            Not a lot more than Labour have done.
            Puts your abysmal claim to the sword, so it does.

            Surely your time would be better spent liberating a meat pie truck.

            • phillip ure 1.4.2.1.1.1

              what do you not understand about ‘wheeling him out’..?

              ..obscure comment on a couple of media-slivers is not ‘wheeling out’..

              ..they could have been where they are now..days ago..

              ..so..where we are now..is that either liu lied/is lying….

              ..or some unknown person in labour made off with a shed-load of money…

          • freedom 1.4.2.1.2

            The silence from Hooten on RNZ today was a big tell that their hand is not as good as they thought it was. It was abundantly clear the subject he didn’t want to discuss was the Liu affair.

            Q to mod: why was this comment put into moderation?

            • lprent 1.4.2.1.2.1

              Hooton please. Tired of pulling comments out of moderation.

              • freedom

                D’oh sorry lprent,
                and after i made the earlier comment about people’s spelling…. egg meet face 🙁

            • Once was Tim 1.4.2.1.2.2

              If you read Frank Macskasy’s latest on TDB (a Timeline), you’ll understand why.

              What’s worse though is why a public service broadcaster continues to give BOTH Williams and Hooton any airtime (in the manner they do).

              Btw …. isn’t it about time Rinny Ryan was retired and given a PR spin doctor’s role somewhere? (maybe the EPA…. or DOC …. or even create a position in say Foreign Affairs and Trade as Chief Apologist …… perhaps even Umigration)

              The harder they rise (in all their arrogance), the harder they fall though eh? For them, the trick is basically trying their best not to get caught – not unlike the local P dealer.

              As the Pantine lady once said though “It won’t hepun ovanoit, but it WILL Hepun!”
              No wonder Mr Krisma is cultivating friendshup with the world’s most powerful Uncle Thomas.

              Funny to watch really. It’s about time we had another Muldoon moment (a la just prior to his downfall)

  2. Draco T Bastard 2

    Must read on intelligence, capitalism and the upcoming revolution:

    It’s not just the US, he adds. “The preconditions of revolution exist in the UK, and most western countries. The number of active pre-conditions is quite stunning, from elite isolation to concentrated wealth to inadequate socialisation and education, to concentrated land holdings to loss of authority to repression of new technologies especially in relation to energy, to the atrophy of the public sector and spread of corruption, to media dishonesty, to mass unemployment of young men and on and on and on.”

    Some of what he says can easily been seen happening in NZ now as this National government does things secretly and the MSM help that same National government attack the opposition.

  3. NzJackson 3

    ManaINTERNET leader Hone Harawira will highly likely not hold his Te Tai Tokerau seat in this years election.

    The northern advocate also ran a story with the Mr Dearloves announcement on Friday.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11278241

    With the announcement of Mr Dearlove entering the race, he shall draw votes from Mana members that do not understand the ManaINTERNET situation. Further he is likely to attract a good percentage of the protest vote against the ManaINTERNET partnership.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11275172

    Mr Harawira is under pressure from within, after the Herald ran the story announcing Mr Dearloves intention to stand, he took to facebook to explain his interview with the herald. In politics if your explaining your losing (ask Labour about the donations issue).

    Questions are being asked what has Mr Harawira done in the Te Tai Tokerau? We know that he is at all the hui, and talks alot, but… what has really changed for all his time in parliamnent?
    Ask yourself what do Maori on the Te Tai Tokerau marae think of Kim Dotcom? Do you think Maori in Te Tai Tokerau see Dotcom as our answer?

    Mana has lost its core message with the partnership with the internet party, what does ManaINTERNET stand for really? And can that message be understood by the Te Tai Tokerau electorate?

    In their [ManaINTERNET] push for the youth vote in Te Tai Tokerau it is likely to help Mr Dearlove further. After the 2011 election he returned to the the far north and taught at Mr Harawiras kura. Mr Dearlove has taught throughout Northland and is a well respected teacher by the students. The young voters shall likely know Mr Dearlove or have friends that do.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      I’d say that you and Mr Dearlove are working for National so as to try and prevent a Left government.

      • weka 3.1.1

        +1

        Has Dearlove said who he would support in govt? If he hasn’t then it’s clear that he’s not left wing. I know Māori politics is more complex than that, but given the actions of the Māori Party it’s reasonable to expect a clear statement of intent.

    • bad12 3.2

      A shallow analysis worthy of a shill, Dearlove likely to poll a couple of hundred votes will in all probability take such votes as what He gets from across the spectrum,

      Far from a threat to Hone He may even help Him increase the majority by removing more votes from kelvin Davis than He does from the sitting MP,

      Suggesting that because Dearlove was at one point their teacher that young people as a majority will vote for Him is risable, young people are just as likely to wave the big middle finger at ”teacher” and vote everywhere but….

    • Colonial Viper 3.3

      So – when is Mr Dearlove going to write for the Standard and explain his motives for splitting Mana’s vote in order to help Kelvin Davis and National?

      • bad12 3.3.1

        Snigger, i thought He had been doing so, but, according to NzJackson He does not know Dearlove leaving me in my usual state of intellectual confusion…

        • Colonial Viper 3.3.1.1

          lol – not your fault, this bloody world is built on cognitive dissonance, the average joe just cauterises it out of their mind

    • Awww 3.4

      I don’t know what Hone does in Northland, but I do know that in the last few years I’ve become more aware of the issues up there than at any time previous. That man has a mouth on him for sure.

    • Lanthanide 3.5

      This guy is obviously a shill.

      Open mike 13/06/2014

      Open mike 17/06/2014

      • grumpy 3.5.1

        Heh, those links take me to comments by CV every time. Say what you like about CV but I doubt he fits the description of a “shill”.

        • Lanthanide 3.5.1.1

          Not sure why it’s taking you to comments from CV, because they link to the comments by NzJackson (which do have replies from CV, but that is still not what I’m linking to).

          If you hover your mouse cursor over the date link for each comment you will see the number in the URL matches the link I posted above.

          • grumpy 3.5.1.1.1

            Oh, you mean the posts ABOVE those from CV………… 🙂

            • Colonial Viper 3.5.1.1.1.1

              lol grumpy; pleased your eye is naturally drawn to my comments tho 😀

              • grumpy

                I like your comments, haven’t found one I agree with yet but respect them all the same 🙂

        • fender 3.5.1.2

          Clearly your browser is as wonky as your right wing mind..

      • Clemgeopin 3.5.2

        Sounds like ear wax munching John Banks, going by the ‘rain falling on his head’ quote and all that.

    • The Lone Haranguer 3.6

      Utter rubbish.

      Mr Dearlove will no doubt WISH that his comments were truth, but they are fables of his own making. Hone has a very loyal base up in TTT and will bolt in at the election, most likely with over 50% of the cast votes in the electoral race.

      And Labour will probably win the party vote. Those Maori up north, they understand MMP.

    • Clemgeopin 3.7

      In the context of this election you are coming across as a destabiling enemy agent, being neither a ‘Dear’ nor brimming with any true ‘Love’ for Hone or the progressives.

  4. NzJackson 4

    Really? Is Kelvin working for National to?

  5. NzJackson 5

    Do you know Mr Dearlove? I dont know him but have friends and kids that do. All the things i have heard have been good. What do you know? Is he bad because he is standing?

    • Draco T Bastard 5.1

      No, he’s bad because he’s lying. Voting for him won’t result in Te Tai Tokerau getting three MPs and he knows it.

      • greywarbler 5.1.1

        Draco TB
        LOL Is Dearlove bad because he is standing? No he’s bad because he’s lying. Good one. Dear me the opposition have to sharpen up to keep with the pace here. Love the repartee. In cups or wherever. (Or perhaps as MS states – coffee is best.)

    • Lanthanide 5.2

      You ask a lot of “questions”.

    • Tracey 5.3

      no, you are bad because you are championing someone you have never met.

  6. Draco T Bastard 6

    Hah, just noticed that the date on this Open Mike is wrong – it’s dated for yesterday :D:

    [karol: thanks. Fixed]

    [My bad – prepared pre coffee – MS]

  7. swordfish 7

    Now, this is going to be seen as a supreme self-indulgence on my part, but what the Hell…

    I’m re-designing my blog Sub-Zero Politics and I just can’t choose between the present design and one of the alternatives I’ve set up. I’d appreciate any comments from my fellow Standardistas on which is best / most effective.

    Design I’m currently using is here…http://sub-z-p.blogspot.co.nz/

    Alternative one here… http://s-zpolitics.blogspot.co.nz/
    (you can also get to the current one via link from alternative one)

    I explain it all at the top of the alternative blog – so, if you’re in the mood, please feel free to leave a comment below the post on the alternative one, letting me know which one you prefer. Or possibly here on The Standard in reply to this comment. (assuming Lynn etc doesn’t mind).

    Yeah, I know, it sounds like a cheap trick to get people reading my blog but nothing, absolutely nothing on this Earth could be further from the truth. God forbid !

    • karol 7.1

      I prefer the tears in the rain background.

      • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

        Agree but something like this might fit the blog title better

        http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/frosty-window-jamie-rabold.jpg

        • Pasupial 7.1.1.1

          Definitely the new background and title font. I can see the point of CV’s icicle suggestion, but it’s a bit too intricate for a border (where the central detail would be lost anyway). Just lose the Banks pic please!

          Many thanks for all the good work on polls and statistics.

      • weka 7.1.2

        I find the raindrops one much easier visually, however the post date isn’t very visible (something I would be looking for on a political blog)

        If you are intent on changes, I’d suggest getting a theme that allows text to be wider on the page. No need for all that space on left and right, and depending on background it’s just distracting.

        You might find wordpress better too.

      • greywarbler 7.1.3

        I like the melting ice one but note that the date over the comment below then fades into the background – would have to go on white, or be in thick white on dark background. Dates are important to me.

        And I don’t understand – at a glance- what the geography of the vote means when its at home.

        The Ides of Epsom. Good title. (Reminds me – frivolous – of the comedy line ‘I told him Julie (Johnny) don’t go, It’s the Ides of March already’.)

    • You_Fool 7.2

      The mods here might contradict me, but they let me link to my football podcast/blog so I am sure they will be fine with this…

      Also I shall read your blog if you read mine :p

      [lprent: The restraints by mods are markedly less in OpenMike. ]

      • swordfish 7.2.1

        Thanks to all 3 of you. I appreciate it.

        Already had a few visits to your blog over the last week or so, Y_F.
        Played The Beautiful Game throughout my 20s and most of my 30s (as well as its Indoor equivalent). So, I’m always up for anything on the World’s premier sporting event. I’ll continue to visit.

        Incidently, at the risk of taking things just a little too far, I’ll just give one more alternative…http://subzpsubzp.blogspot.co.nz/
        Looks great as far as I’m concerned, but I doubt anyone really wants to read white typeface on black background. So probably not an option.

        • ianmac 7.2.1.1

          Funny thing swordfish I looked right past the layout and studied the numbers and text. Either/or. The content on polls is fascinating as is the data on Political Scientist.

        • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.2

          Hi swordfish. IMO. The transparent deep grey needs to be mildly darker in order for the background to be less distracting from the text; I don’t like the fact that the blue of the date is a different (and to me) harder to read blue to the other blues on the page.

          Not quite sure exactly what but one or two softer, more feminine design elements would be nice to incorporate. Perhaps something curvilinear or less angular, maybe a symbol or pattern of some kind (which should probably be in a greyscale)?

    • freedom 7.3

      my 2c, The icicles suggestion from CV are certainly stronger and more interesting than the raindrops. It would be worth stretching the image to fit the frame and the soft distortion this would create would be a nice detail without being too busy.

      p.s. if you do use the blocks, use the transparent boards, that looks really good, but maybe just a smidge darker?

      • greywarbler 7.3.1

        The blocks with large white font is very clear, using white needs larger font for ease on eyes. You have a wide sentence across screen, be better with a bit more left margin and that would narrow the content a little, not too much..

        The date being light on dark needs to be really bold. Like the blue effect on letters at bottom gives zing so good for emphasis, notices.

        And keep your settings for the other pages – you may want a change now and then. I thought they were good – new is just a change at the same good quality.

    • kenny 7.4

      Prefer the alternative.

      • swordfish 7.4.1

        Cheers to everyone above, really appreciate it. Looks like the alternative was the winner on the day (by quite some distance). I’ll get the date sorted and I’ll have a think about the image you proposed, CV. Cheers.

        Greywarbler – geography of the vote = Over the last few years (since 09), I’ve been occasionally using a bit of spare time to calculate the party-vote (from last 3 elections – 2014 will be the 4th) for every suburb in urban NZ – cities ranging in size from Wanganui up to Auckland. For all the parties that made it into parliament + figures for the Left and Right blocs in general. So, I thought I might stick some of that data on the blog when I have time. So, basically It’ll be on a seat-by-seat basis – and for each seat there’ll be tables setting out party / bloc support for the last 3 elections (and the vote movement between) on a suburb-by-suburb basis. Ultimately, I’ll add suburban census data so people can get a really detailed understanding of demographics underlying party support. Christchurch is the one exception for obvious reasons. Given the huge population movement, not much point in trying to pin down the vote geographically at this stage. (Then again, maybe all the more reason…)

        Weka – text to be wider on the page. I’m not sure about this, Weka. When I first started setting it up a couple of months ago, I had a good look at other kiwi blogs and most tend towards the narrow. Whereas, I like something similar to an A4 width. So I purposely made mine wider than most. What your saying might have more to do with the lack of any information (previous posts / blogroll / profile etc) down either side. So the background (on either side) probably seems a bit empty relative to other blogs.

        ianmac – thanks for that. I’ve got a whole lot of half finished posts in draft – got the motivation but just not enough spare time. I’ll be linking to Puddleglum’s The Political Scientist in my next post. He’s produced some brilliant analysis on that site and very impressive graphics to boot.

        • blue leopard 7.4.1.1

          Just to put my 2 cents worth in – I thought the comment by Weka re width had some merit – perhaps it would only mean more white space – but white space is good and also could save some scrolling (although possibly not, might just allow for more white space).

          [It looks good regardless – just my 2 cents worth]

          Another bit of feedback too: when you have lots of tables/stats it would be helpful/ more readable to have some quick explanations in between that information. I think this would make your information more easily digested. (This is in relation to the first longer article you wrote)

          • swordfish 7.4.1.1.1

            Cheers, bl – but which one looks good ? The Mountain/Rain-drops one ? What do you think of the 2nd alternative (linked to in 9.18am comment (7.2.1) ?. I personally think it looks brilliant but probably impractical. CV’s almost certainly right when he suggests the grey background is too intrusive given the transparent background of the blog itself.

            I’ll have another think about the width given the points made by you and Weka. But it is actually wider than almost every other NZ blog I’ve seen. Possibly what you’re noticing is the severe contrast between blog background and outer background that most other blogs don’t have. But if you were to get a ruler and measure, you’d find that each line is actually wider than on most blogs.

            White space is important (The Standard utilizes white space very well – one of the most impressively designed leading blogs IMO), but before I started making changes in the last few days, my blog had FAR too much of the stuff – all these stats marooned in a sea of white. Having that outer background on either side brings focus and clarity to the posts IMO.

            Really appreciate you and others taking the trouble. There’s no doubt this has been a massive self-indulgence on my part. Now back to Colin the Christian and the enterprising Mr Liu.

            • blue leopard 7.4.1.1.1.1

              I didn’t mention the other aspects of design because I really think both are good.

              I personally like the raindrop effect. If you want detailed-picky feedback I shall now oblige, however the following should be taken as very mild suggestions/observations because both are perfectly fine as they are:

              I like the typeset of the new design’s title, yet notice there is something clearer about the white background and black letters – (this is likely to do with the fact I often sit outside and was sitting outside with a laptop when last viewing them, so this showed up a weakness in the darker background). This is very picky though – and the darker/transparent background looks snazzier to me.

              I also agree with other comments that it would be good to ensure the date is clear (that definitely disappears when viewing in bright conditions on a laptop).

              It is really great having your site and Puddleglum’s – good idea to link them! You both provide – really good and thought provoking analysis, makes such a nice change from the dull mulched brain-dead info that we receive from the lamestream. Thanks very much! 🙂

              • weka

                I’d have guessed that ts has wider text than you blog swordfish, but have resisted getting out the ruler 😉 I’m on a laptop, and have my browser text set larger than default, so that will change things too.

                I’m not a fan of imaged backgrounds, which is why I tend to like wordpress blogs better than blogspot. Much of the text outside the white box is illegible in the raindrops one. IMO that’s a design crime by the people at blogger.com. Their themes should work across all text formats.

                Whatever you choose, I think communication and ease of access are the most important things. Having text legible is part of that. And thank-you for not using light text on dark background!

        • swordfish 7.4.1.2

          But how inherently sexist is that ? I’ve just assumed Puddleglum’s a bloke.

          As the late, lamented Rik Mayall once said to Neil: “Ah haaa ! And what makes you think your Bank Manager’s a Man ???”

          Neil (looking confused at the question): “His beard.”

        • greywarbler 7.4.1.3

          Thanks swordfish – geography of vote. That approach could be good and quite sensitive to possible changes, when electorate boundaries are changed. Is that so?
          With small differences between parties the understanding of votes in particular booths even could be vital.

  8. karol 8

    I was trying to use FF and use Chrome sparingly. Last night I switched to SWARE Iron, open source browser. So far very pleased with how it works.

    Last night I also set up Avant browser. Both look very good.

    • freedom 8.1

      Thanks karol,
      Typos on the SWARE page is a bit of a bad look, but that Avant set up looks worth a run.

      • karol 8.1.1

        Hmmm. I’m not sure where you are looking.

        But it may be because it’s a German company?

        I actually really am liking the SWARE Iron browser. It presents a lot like chrome. The reviews I looked at put Avant at #1. But the Iron one had a recommendation re-privacy capabilities.

        So far Iron seems way more usable than Avant. And it has a much better spell check than FF.

        • freedom 8.1.1.1

          http://www.srware.net/en/software_srware_iron.php

          cheers karol, might just be mild case of mondayitis on my part
          good to know it is a german group because that country is fighting harder for privacy than probably any other member of the EU

          I will of course try them both and see which has the fewer crumbs left on the plate

          • karol 8.1.1.1.1

            Well, I got fed up with FF’s slowness, and for some reasons I’ve had problems with Chrome, too – shockwave conflicts, I think. So decided to try something different.
            there are quite a few alternative browsers out there.

            • freedom 8.1.1.1.1.1

              FF has gotten very sluggish of late. Chrome is faster for general browsing but i do prefer the FF interface. (habit mainly) The shockwave problems though are weird.

              Ever since Adobe decided to stop supporting ubuntu/linux most flash software is almost like revisiting the early days of ADSL .. have been trying to find a fix but it is a global problem. It is being worked on I am told. Times like this i wish i understood computers more. It seems to be something in the refresh rate/decoding side of the players but it does makes streaming some stuff look like a flip book. Chrome is even worse than FF sometimes because although FF stutters on the feeds the Chrome player (html5 i think?) just looks like a series of picture cards being dropped into your screen one at a time.
              Had another Ubuntu guy here the other day and he too was shaking his head in solidarity.

              I run on a brand new 64bit dual core with 6G ram and a shiny new video card so at least I know it is not my machine. Had that confirmed too by Ubuntu folk. It came with Windows 8.1 which was nice and all but after having a wander around the lovely tiles, it came time to install Ubuntu alongside it, like i had done on previous machines, Windows wanted to set it up as a virtual machine inside Windows and I laughed at its coy ploy as i dumped Windows into the netherworld and now just run Ubuntu again.

              What gets confusing, and a bit aggravating is how streams from within NZ like TV One and TV3 for instance are absolutely fine and there is nary a hiccup. I know it’s not your thing but the Football is a good example of the current situation. Can have the TVOne stream going and it is sweet. Other feeds from across the waters and i am back in stutter flipbook hell.

              I am resigned to be patient though as I am sure the Ubuntu folk will find a fix. A good practise is to download streams instead (video downloadhelper) then watching later when I can but this is often tough (read impossible) with many live streams.

              Will try those new browsers over the next few days and see if there are any improvements. but until either Adobe stops being such a dick or Ubuntu creates a new stand alone player we seem to be stuck with a few issues… all because corporate greed believes stifling innovation will somehow provoke progress for the internet 🙁

              • karol

                Thanks, I was thinking it was my machine which is 1-2 years old.

                I just chose those 2 browsers from a couple of lists of recommended browsers. There may be other ones that are better. I’m no techie.

              • lprent

                Weird. I haven’t been seeing anything like that for a year or so. But I generally remain on the development versions of kubuntu (I hate that godwful unity with a passion because it is so hard to find open windows (of which I have many) and gnome is so damn old feeling for speed now). There were a pile of fixes that went in on the ubuntu 13.04/13.10. 14.04 was wonderful apart from having to reinstall it after the upgrade failed. I’d been running upgraded development versions on my workstation since 10.10 with added in non-distribution packages. I suspect one of the latter is what forced the new.

                Just make sure /home, /root, /etc and /opt are all off in a different partition, just fstab them back after the install (merge the changed etc files), and the reinstall is pretty trivial, and you run a text dump of dpkg periodically so you can see what packages you should be asking for from the distribution.

                I have exactly one problem these days. The bloody MTR for the androids etc doesn’t like my USB setup. It keeps dropping them off and reaquiring them. I have tracked it down enough to know that it is a problem in the Linux USB driver and the USB chips on my 990FXA-UD3 motherboard. It also shows up when I plug in one particular USB3 external hard drive. One day I might have to look at the code (I keep hoping that a fix will come through). Makes it frigging hard to access the file system on Androids, and I have to plug that external drive into a USB2.

                In the meantime I backup those from windows on the laptop every few weeks.

                • freedom

                  Lprent, kubuntu is only for experienced users right? It is more of a kitset that you build from scratch rather than the lego set that is Ubuntu?

                  Overall U 14.04 is solid as a rock but I also had it fall over on the first install. From then on though it has been fine. No USB issues that I have noticed but no USB3 here either.

                  The multiple workspace bugs are gone YEEHAH and that makes my life really simple, being able to jump around between progs without having to have layers and layers of open windows. The multiple workspaces are probably my favourite ubuntu thing. So simple, so useful. I can easily have a dozen files open in gimp so the extra workspace is handy. As long as gimp runs smoothly and media players function as intended I am happy. (I am so easily pleased. Now if we could get world peace a cure for cancer and find everlasting love i would be set) I will put up with browser issues and I have only really had problems with FF freezing, which I now know is FF. The only other problem is VLC is skittish of late with sync issues but SMP covers whatever VLC stuffs up usually bluray rip related.. or so i hear from those who watch movies that may or may not have been purchased

                  I generally rely on the updater and the software centre to avoid stuffing things up but I am stumbling along learning a few bits here and there. I am more confident in a terminal than I was a year ago but still have heart in mouth attacks most times. I always do lots of reading from others before doing anything.

                  ====================

                  “Just make sure /home, /root, /etc and /opt are all off in a different partition, just fstab them back after the install (merge the changed etc files), and the reinstall is pretty trivial, and you run a text dump of dpkg periodically so you can see what packages you should be asking for from the distribution.”

                  This passage pretty much encompasses my current slow road to learning. But learning is fun. I know I need to get out from under the apron of the software center and really knuckle down so i can stuff up all on my own. I know I have not fully grasped the architecture of the system and am often unclear of how to go forward with identifying partition listings et al but the wider Ubuntu community are really helpful, even to newbies. Which I will always be.

            • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.1.1.2

              Latest FF is probably the worst browser I’ve ever used. Slow, clunky and has an irritating habit of dropping into [not responding] for several seconds whenever I try to change tabs. I keep it around so that I can watch youtube videos. In Chrome the sound always lags the video (Chrome has it’s own Flash player built in) and the fix I found for that left me with sound and no video more often than not (ie, cure worse than problem).

              • karol

                I was getting the [not responding] several times a day. That is what sent me looking for an alternative. I was surprised at the number of alternatives out there – but not knowledgeable enough to make a strong judgement in advance of using them.

                But, decided to go for a change.

              • Colonial Viper

                I’ve used FF for a long time and to my disgrace I’ve gone back to IE as I got sick of FF 1) bloating and taking up all my RAM and 2) quitting with no reason and no warning.

                Win 8.1

                • freedom

                  I gave W8.1 a good couple of weeks before disposing of it and can see the attraction, but when I had to register with MS just to install software on my own machine i knew its days were numbered

                  p.s. i won’t use IE but certainly found chrome was better on that platform

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Don’t have to register but MS certainly makes it hard to find the bypass.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Try Chrome or some of the others that Karol listed.

  9. Charlieboy 9

    Anyone hear Obama say that he was expecting to meet Key later in the year,after the election. Is he advocating for the Natz or have the dirty tricksters told him,”Don’t worry Mr President, your golfing buddy is guaranteed another term”.

    • karol 9.1

      Well, maybe Key is just planning to head off to live fulltime in the US?

      • miravox 9.1.1

        “Well, maybe Key is just planning to head off to live fulltime in the US?”

        Maybe that explains this wee slip of the tongue when Key said he and Obama are going to meet up next year, after politics, when the logistics will be easier.

      • Grumpy 9.1.2

        It’s amazing the tricks the Democrat Party has to get past the line these days…..

        • McFlock 9.1.2.1

          “these days”?
          US politics has been corrupt since the revolution.

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.2.2

          It’s amazing the tricks the Democrat Party has to get past the line these days…..

          What’s wrong with the Democratic division of the Pro-corporate Party as opposed to the Republican division of that Party?

    • ianmac 9.2

      On Morning Report it was just later in the year. But if Mr Key fails in the Election then he will become his best mate Obama’s Chief Adviser.

      • Colonial Viper 9.2.1

        appointment to the Federal Reserve Board of Governors, an area chief of the World Bank, or some similar scam

    • yeshe 9.3

      bet key never tells his new best friend that he can’t remember which side he was on for the 1981 springbok rugby tour ….

    • Tracey 9.4

      neither of them can be very good. They played for five hours on a secured course, with buggies. Golf does not take five hours under those circumstances

      • Draco T Bastard 9.4.1

        Depends upon what you’re talking about I suppose and how critical it is that the public don’t hear what you’re saying.

  10. Chooky 10

    BREAKING: I have just signed a statement claiming I donated $10billion to John Key for a cheap bottle of gin, where’s my front page and lead on the TV news?

    By Martyn Bradbury / June 23, 2014

    “I’m getting this terrible feeling that the entire NZ mainstream media have run with a Government created lie and not critically evaluated their one roll in perpetrating that lie….

    All we have to date is a 6 week old bullshit signed statement that means nothing. If Donghua Liu was genuine he would sign an affidavit, he hasn’t. So his signed statement is about as credible as my signed statement claiming to have donated $10 Billion to John Key, yet major news outlets have run with this story as if they have clear legal protection to do so.

    Unless Donghua Liu comes forward this week with an affidavit, the Labour party should take defamation action against every major news outlet for what amounts to the regurgitation minus any credible evidence of a manufactured smear”….

    • Te Reo Putake 10.1

      No doubt Martyn has fully credited and acknowledged the person who first posted this mildly humorous concept coz he ain’t no plagiarist, no sirree:

      Open mike 22/06/2014

    • greywarbler 10.2

      Chooky
      You’ve been done. Just one bottle? A jeroboam? at least. Careful, it makes you go blind or something. Obvious that NACTs are big partakers. Don’t fall down that mousehole.

      • Chooky 10.2.1

        @ greywarbler …what do you mean just one bottle.?!..all i had was breakfast and reposted a Bomber post from the other side…and I never get drunk except on Election Night when i only get rather tiddled on champagne if the Left is winning…i am working up to this in imagination and anticipation

        …if Labour and the Left dont win …it will be only be one glass to celebrate the demise of Peter Dunne

        • greywarbler 10.2.1.1

          I’ll have to co-ordinate with you after the election and get time and the appropriate beverage to celebrate or commiserate with!

    • Te Reo Putake 10.3

      I posted a comment on TDB pointing out where Martyn had sourced the post from and, after an hour in moderation, it went up on the site. Twenty minutes later, it vanished. Funny that.

      Martyn ‘Bomber’ Bradbury: Plagiarist and Coward.

      • Te Reo Putake 10.3.1

        To be fair to Bomber, he did allow a second comment to go through, and he denies plagiarism because “… the idea I would read the standard was a clear lie “.

        I don’t know about you lot, but I trust him completely when he says that. Honest.

        • phillip ure 10.3.1.1

          cd someone tell me why the standard and the daily blog seem to ‘hate’ each other so much..?

          (to bolshevik vs. menshevik levels..)

          ..that totally puzzles me..

          ..did it all start over a woman/man..?

          ..or an ideological-schism i missed..?

          • Te Reo Putake 10.3.1.1.1

            Martyn stole Lprents stash …

          • risildowgtn 10.3.1.1.2

            Its about Numbers.

            BB spams that site everywhere. Dumps and runs the links in so many Facebook pages, Twitter as well..

            Dont get me wrong I admire the guy. And he stirs up the Tories. So all good

            Just IMO I think that site is errr soooooo last week. Moderation? bah

            • phillip ure 10.3.1.1.2.1

              i agree the heavy-censorship sucks..

              ..tho’ it has some good articles..that i often link to..

              ..but it’s not much point reading the comments-thread to get any idea of populist-mood..

              ..as contrary arguments often just don’t get thru..

              ..and as a strong advocate of free-speech..

              ..that degree/level of control/suppression of dissenting-voices.. both puzzles and disturbs…

      • Chooky 10.3.2

        @ Te Reo Putake…dont be so sibling petty …imitation is the sincerest form of flattery…he thought what you said was great!

        • Te Reo Putake 10.3.2.1

          On TDB he called me a liar and, um, a mindreader. The sad thing is that, as he never reads the Standard, he’ll never know how much that hurt me. Sob!

          • Chooky 10.3.2.1.1

            well he probably said it with a maniac smile on his face like Rik in the ‘Young Ones’…so dont sob like Neil…he stole it from you the bastard !…so go and steal something from his site

    • Tracey 10.4

      People lie in affidavits regularly. Atheists swear affidavits rather than makedeclarations. The important issue for me is the lack of corroborating documentation.

      Mr Liu says his trust gave money. Or someone said it was his trust. Ird requires documentation of a financial nature to be kept for 7 years. Ird will have proof or can request it. Unless the trustees agree, ird agrees cant release it publically.They wouldnt object though would they?.the trustees are required to keep the documents.

      So, for me, being a statement or affidavit is irrelevant in practice, what is relevant is no supporting documentation.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.4.1

        Atheists swear affidavits rather than makedeclarations

        Actually, atheists swear affirmations because it would be rather silly of them to swear on the bible which they don’t believe in. Also, what people swear on doesn’t make any difference as to their honesty. Honest people will be honest and liars will lie.

        • Chooky 10.4.1.1

          yes and Mr Liu is clearly one of the latter ….takes after his NACT master

  11. I hope everyone else is enjoying the football world cup as much as I am. I am interested that I saw an article this morning on my tablet that Van Gaal, the dutch coach, is having a whine about the officials, though from what I see of the dutch matches there were no issues. Van Gaal is normally a leveled headed person, so I am wondering if his comments have been taken out of context or not… I have to find a link to the article now

    Here is the one I read:
    http://www.supersport.com/football/world-cup-2014/news/140622/Van_Gaal_accuses_Fifa_of_schedule_tricks

    • karol 11.1

      What football world cup? Not on my TV in waking hours.

      • Olwyn 11.1.1

        You can catch the highlights on TV 1 at 4.30 or 5 each afternoon, and some of the games are shown whole and live in the mornings, also on TV 1.

        • karol 11.1.1.1

          Thanks. But, I’m actually not interested. I’m quite happy that the whole thing has not been put in front of my eyes.

        • The Al1en 11.1.1.2

          Or put a www in front of wiziwig.tv/index.php?part=sports
          and watch all the games on live streams.

          Free sport, including rugby for beef heads, to negate sky and all pay per view.

          • freedom 11.1.1.2.1

            cheers Al1en, always good to have options. to reciprocate http://www.vipboxoc.co/
            you have to do a few ad clicks to load the streams, but reliable feeds

            • The Al1en 11.1.1.2.1.1

              Indeed, ta for the extra bookmark.

              I like wiziwig as it has a range of stream speeds from hd down. Use ad blocker, close any chat boxes and you’re away.
              Also I can get GB commentary, which as in the case of the recent meat head tests, makes really biased home town callers a thing of the past.

              Up watching the cricket last night, though I really shouldn’t have.

              • freedom

                and streaming you get to see other nation’s tv ads which is always fun and often enlightening

          • Ennui 11.1.1.2.2

            Pay for view funds professionalism, overpaid over-hyped beef heads on the field, the same watching their TVs.

            I hate professional sport, I used to head down to Lancaster park, pay $5 to stand on the bank, chain my bike to the fence. Shield matches with 40,000 regular attendees and amateur teams. Glory, parochialism, fun. free to air test matches. Club play on the weekend against provincial and AB players.

            Professionalism leaves me cold: we did not need to pay our gladiators at our Colosseum.

    • Te Reo Putake 11.2

      Level headed? Ha! van Gaal is notoriously outspoken and almost eccentric in his ability to polarise support. But he is a fantastic man manager, putting particular emphasis on knowing everything about his players, right down to remembering their kid’s birthdays, which has meant he is able to build genuine team spirit even amongst Dutch squads. He’s an expert at getting more than the sum of the parts out of his teams, which bodes well for Man U next season.

      His complaint is that the Brasil team will know what they have to do in their final game to get the weakest possible opposition in the first knockout round (ie they might choose to play for a draw in order to be paired with a weak country). Of course, FIFA would never allow any kind of shenanigans like that to tarnish the beautiful game. Oh, no.

      • You_Fool 11.2.1

        The scheduling thing is a genuine complaint; FIFA have some explaining to do on that as there appears to be no rhyme or reason for the scheduling as done. The rant about the officials seems weird, as both incidents were clear penalties. I suppose the ranting on that could be to take some pressure off his players, which good managers do….

    • Chooky 11.3

      ..yes I have bets placed in this because of the company i keep ….thus far i am running at a profit…made more money than the sports nuts

      ….but to me politics is more interesting…and I am betting Labour alliance wins and Winnie is part of this alliance…so i expect to collect big time from present company i keep

  12. bad12 12

    On my wireless this morning Joyce is grovelling to Guyon on behalf of spending more of our hard earned coin on the millionaire ”struggling” boat racers,

    ”Strugglers” they sure as hell are, imagine having to struggle all the way to Parliament to claim,(falsely), that if the Government didn’t stump up with an immediate 5 million bucks of taxpayer coin ‘Team NZ’ would be gone in a month,

    ”Struggle” has got to be the 2 million bucks a year that Grant gets to run this little ‘pump shop’, pumping money outta the taxpayers pockets, ”struggle” you bet, it cost lots to let off steam from the ”struggle” buying up both state of the art and antique motor-bikes as well as race in a modified car class,

    i can well imagine the ”struggle” Dean had wrestling all the furniture outta the million dollar pad in one of Auckland’s ritzier suburbs up the street into the new pad worth many millions so soon after losing the un-losable boat race,

    The fact is that all the millions of taxpayers money spent on these ”sportsmen” in the last decade would have paid for breakfast and lunch for every kid in a decile 1,2,3, and 4 school in this country over the period that the taxpayer has been busily pushing the heavy wheel of capitalism in an effort to buy these bludgers their multi-million dollar habits,

    We need to get our priorities right and in my opinion multi-millionaire yachties aint one of them…

    • Bearded Git 12.1

      Joyce did not rule out funding Team New Zealand. Labour should explictly rule this out now.

    • freedom 12.2

      but if Team NZ are struggling so… where is the sacrifice from the Team to keep it going?
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279103

      • bad12 12.2.1

        But, but, but, No buts you hear, the ”team” is struggling and all of us red sock wearers must close ranks and support millionaire bludgers, oops i mean sportsmen everywhere…

        • fender 12.2.1.1

          Open the books so people can see how much these poor people are paying themselves with state funds..

    • nadis 12.3

      +1

      I recently sent my MP (John Key) an email suggesting we apply normal WINZ thinking to the Americas Cup. The beneficiaries in question are perfectly capable of finding work – they don’t need government support. Cut the strings, make them stand on their own two feet. Means test them.

      Few things piss me off as much as govt funding for the Americas Cup or for professional sports like rugby.

    • McFlock 12.4

      I was mildly irked to see that Daltons “gone at the end of the month” line was typical grasping bullshit and that they can keep going to the end of the year.

  13. risildowgtn 13

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10188943/Key-coy-on-getting-into-bed-with-Craig

    Craig conceded at yesterday’s campaign launch, that he would lose if National did not step aside. “”

    The prime minister is right on that front, with voters overwhelmingly rejecting the practice of coat-tailing in the latest Stuff.co.nz/Ipsos poll.

    The poll found 81.6 per cent of voters did not support coal-tailing, compared with just 13.8 per cent in favour.

    Hah hope this backfires on Key……..

  14. Ant 14

    Tim Murphy on morning report was hilarious.

    Trying to say the difference between an affidavit and a statement is “immaterial”.

    Sound sketchy as anything.

    • ianmac 14.1

      Sounds as though Tim is caught in an indefensible position. Decidedly flakey.
      Incidentally my email was read out on Morning Report highlighting an idea floated on TS by someone showing that the Key/Media has framed the Liu Donations as Money For Access. But since no evidence of the $100,000 exists how can it be framed as Money for Influence?

  15. One Anonymous Bloke 15

    Crazy Colin’s dating profile pic?

    Or is he just pining for a caption contest?

  16. Colonial Viper 16

    Swap child poverty for elder poverty

    Is this the best our “thinkers” and “academics” on $100K p.a. can come up with?

    A more simple answer – lets not have either, and simply tax our biggest corporations another $1B p.a. instead of putting the burden on the poorest in society. Or if you prefer, have the government simply spend the $1B into circulation by keeping super the same age and creating 10,000 jobs for youth in NZ.

    Too difficult an answer eh, so instead we are left deciding who is worthy enough to get a seat in the lifeboat.

    Fucking middle-wayism.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/10181859/Lift-super-age-to-beat-child-poverty#Séquence_1

  17. I think this post on the realities of the Fairfax poll should be required reading for every voter – but especially those of us on the left who are feeling a little disheartened!
    http://www.thepoliticalscientist.org/the-real-story-in-the-fairfax-polls/

    • ianmac 17.1

      Too right Stephenie. Like this bit that demonstrate the smoke and mirrors of Stats:

      Further, the largest number of people avowing support for National was in the November 2012 poll at 442 (out of the roughly 1,000 polled). That’s 44.2% of adult New Zealanders. The percentage party support reported in the poll – based on only the preferences of the ‘decided’ voters who were likely to vote – was 46.3%.

      The latest poll, however, has a reported percentage support for National of 56.5%. The number of actual people in that poll who avowed support for the National Party was 439 – three fewer people than in the November 2012 poll.

      So, the reported support for National between November 2012 and June 2014 appears to show a 10% increase in the proportion of New Zealanders supporting the party. Yet, there are (marginally) fewer people declaring their support for National in June 2014.

      • vto 17.1.1

        How does that happen?

        Regarding the 50%-plus support in the polls, most all I have spoken to just think that is bizarre and that the polling people must have rocks in their heads… I imagine the reason people think it is odd is because it does not stack with the feeling on the streets.

        This election is going to be very very close I think. The nats are on a hiding to nothing on various fronts, such as some seats in Chch, Hone and his merry band, and the like. Look at how close the last election and subsequent current government have been – the slimmest of majorities.

        The nats are going to have to do dirty deals all over the place to get back in. However, given that dirty deals are their modus operandi watch out!

        • ianmac 17.1.1.1

          It is all based on the Undecided. As the Political Scientist says as the undecided numbers fall then the vote for Labour Greens rise in the polls. Conversely the more the undecided numbers rise then the proportion of National poll votes rise even though the actual number of supports for National stay the same. Odd eh?

          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1.1

            This is why Labour MUST give the undecideds firm, irresistable reasons to DECIDE. Instead, Labour is literally driving its own supporters into the “undecided” category with policies like raising the retirement age.

            These are not voters who want to leave Labour (for instance they are not going to National or to other parties) but they refuse to vote for a centrist, mixed up Labour that they do not recognise as being a true left wing party.

            And guess what – no matter how middle of the road Labour shifts, soft NAT voters do not defect over to it in any significant numbers.

    • Tracey 17.2

      Thanks for tge link Stephanie.

      Pete George used to suggest that journos just didnt understand how polls work. I am way more cynical than he it seems. This also expkains why nats are getting dirty.

    • Ennui 17.3

      Great url Steph, I have been saying the polls were somewhat misleading because I figured that National could not pick up any more than 50% max. This seems to indicate 45% or less..good stuff, as it says it is a case of getting the undecided and non voters to the polling booths.

  18. Tiresias 18

    Recommended read:

    http://thebaffler.com/blog/2014/06/why_american_is_a_bad_word_in_australia

    Replace “Australia” with “New Zealand” and I agree with every word.

    • Olwyn 18.1

      +1. That is a very good article, and doesn’t mince words.

      This quote from Guy Rundle hits the nail on the head: Either this budget has fundamentally misjudged the residual social-democratic will of the Australian people . . . or, they have judged it right, and there has been a decisive political-cultural shift in Australia, towards a more individualistic/class-fragmented way of life, in which the poor are seen—US style—as “other.”

      Not to mention the final warning: If we can always point to the United States to demonstrate where we don’t want to go, this frees the Australian left from the need to fully articulate the direction we think we should be heading—a question which is becoming more urgent every day.

      What we are now seeing is that TINA means something, and means it with a vengeance. There is no rising tide that will life all boats, and there is no maturing market economy. There cannot be, because if the foot-on-the-back-of-the-neck is lifted, alternative systems are then able to gain traction. That is why I think that the fightback must begin with protection of the poor from the rich in the form of substantive human rights – e.g. the right to secure housing and the right to earn a living (as opposed to a pittance). Each step toward securing such things would inch the economy further along a path that accommodated them.

      • greywarbler 18.1.1

        Olwyn
        James McNeish’s book on Danilo Dolci told about his fight to help the poor in Southern Italy.. The economy was so munted by the mafia and corrupted authorities and church in Sicily, that there was an outcry when many working men went with Danilo on a ‘work-strike’. That was a strike where they protested against unemployment and fixed potholes in the road for free. That caused a stink. The emperor was seen naked and unadorned with comforting fuzzy lies. The Pope is on the case again. The last time that the Church leader spoke out against this, bombs were set off in churches.

        The sooner that we force the issue here the better. The entitlement, rentier, speculator and milk-rush brigade get stronger every day, and then harder to penetrate their defences, mental and physical.

        It is interesting how constant disagreement on dividing matters means dissipation of energy, time and effectiveness, seen in Thailand where the military have taken over. In NZ we are watched over by the USA who have run an exercise here with these relevant scenarios:

        Organisers have created a scenario where the lower half of the South Island is a South West Pacific country called Mainlandiar. For the purposes of the exercise, the top half of the South Island doesn’t exist and the North Island is New Zealand.
        In the scenario, Mainlandiar has held an election with the ousted prime minister refusing to go, supported by a militia.

        A coalition of New Zealand and the nine other nations has formed the International Stability Mission for Mainlandiar (Instamm).
        Troops and vehicles will be brought ashore on a local beach (weather permitting) on amphibious craft, with the intention of “securing” Timaru Airport. ….
        The exercise will involve the naval ships Canterbury, Wellington, and a French-supplied frigate. The French will also contribute aircraft.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/9282666/Defence-force-training-in-South-Canterbury
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/9384664/Troops-liberate-Mainlandia

        • Olwyn 18.1.1.1

          Thanks for pointing out McNeish’s book – I will put it on my “to read” list.

          The sooner that we force the issue here the better. The entitlement, rentier, speculator and milk-rush brigade get stronger every day, and then harder to penetrate their defences, mental and physical. Couldn’t agree more.

          And I am not sure what to make of the South Island military exercises. On one hand, I assume such exercises need to run along narrative lines so that the participants have a basis for making decisions and acting on them. On the other, I can’t help getting a creepy sense of the military being taught how to intervene on a possible future government that doesn’t do as it’s told.

          • greywarbler 18.1.1.1.1

            Think it’s called Fire under the Ashes Olwyn. It’s good like all of McNeish’s.

            That exercise thing and Key’s undying love for Obama is to my mind just creepy. When other places in the world have received their share of loving care from the democracy or else our way brigade well who knows what could happen. But few people are probably cognisant of the implications. We still have a cold war in Dunedin, NZ about 1915 conscientious objectors recognition by the RSA who took ages to accept the post WW2 fighting men into their glorious ranks. My Dad buried in France, was saying that the Grim Reaper could very well get him, and that he had a different point of view than when he left NZ. But the old nostalgia for bloody war, death and injury has sort of pulled the wool over some eyes and blocked thinking passages.

            Remembering NZ workers protests and the response from the noble denizens of the land from the past. Who would know whether we might have a real-life example to them all carried forward here run by our foreign friends. The Tuhoe exercise was done on whose say-so, for what purpose? A practice run, to ratchet up the police presence and capability a notch from the 1981 episode, and try out the use or the handling anyway of new weaponry?

            A peaceful, happy country working out its problems diplomatically is not a hostile-event-prepared one. The unprepared Maori were in that position after Hongi Hika traded his gifts for guns. (Those gifts are historical taonga, I wonder where they ended up?) And now communism has been beaten, the logical next target is socialism. And social democracies, eeuugh.

  19. greywarbler 19

    Prof Joanathan Boston and Simon Chapple authors on an apparent wise D-I-Y economy book probably get their ideas direct down the pipe from the OECD.

    This is one of their thinkpieces on it. Pensions are too generous – it makes sense to work longer. Thinking that might have been done with one’s head down a toilet, or with one eye on an old telescope eyepiece.
    What about the workers! Or more to the point those who have been denied work and a livable wage by this august well paid bunch of boffins.
    http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/archivestory.php/aid/824/Retiring_later_makes_sense.html

    Here from a table showing countries’ leaving ages from employment.
    Mexico
    Korea
    Chile
    in paid employment either over 70 or near in years 2009-2013.
    (New Zealand is midway in table and well above OECD average for length of employment years.)

    Pensions at a glance OECD 2013
    3.8. Average effective age of labour market exit and normal pensionable age

    “A case could be made for expecting capable, older New Zealanders to support themselves without the benefit of New Zealand Superannuation for a bit longer,” they said.

    The authors said many other countries had moved that way. Moving the age of eligibility would just be a start – it should then be indexed to life expectancy as Denmark has done.

    Here is a grab of OECD headings with a few stats on employment –
    Young Danes aged 15-24 face an unemployment rate of 14.1% compared ..
    and
    Young Norwegians aged 15-24 face an unemployment rate of 8.6%, …
    and
    In terms of employment, 72% of people aged 15 to 64 in New-Zealand have a paid job, …
    and
    In terms of employment, around 74% of people aged 15 to 64 in Sweden have a …

    • greywarbler 19.1

      Just a bit more – I ran out of time.

      Referring to thinkpieces at top – is referring to the OECD link but says basically what Boston et al say.

      And when looking at employment stats remember that what is classed as paid employment is what is decided by Stats or Treasury or OECD. They may have been counting all paid work of at least an hour a week, a day, or a year. Not what I myself would count as useful employment stats but useful for masking the extent of a problem.
      But I don’t know. I have to go and do some unpaid physical work that isn’t of much interest to the magic bean counters.

      We live in a fantasy world so from Through the Looking Glass a good quote to remember between Alice and Humpty Dumpty.
      “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
      “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
      “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

      And consult the Red Queen for good advice about saying things and possibly it applies to doing things, though I hope that things wrongly done in NZ can be corrected.
      “It’s too late to correct it,” said the Red Queen: “when you’ve once said a thing, that fixes it, and you must take the consequences.”

  20. Ant 20

    Surely Labour’s selection process must have some kind of vetting procedure?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279732#comment-form

  21. Colonial Viper 21

    Labour UK and its leadership floundering

    I backed Ed Milliband for the UK Labour leadership, but when he retreats into cautious poll driven word smithed mode, what good is he. As many others have been noticing.

    Are there no Labour Parties around the world able to take on the Right Wing even during a prolonged age of austerity and recession?

    “It depends on which Ed Miliband you are talking about,” he said. “Will it be the Ed who is bold, who really wants to change things? Or will it be the one who is defensive, cautious and listens to the focus groups? Is our leader the guy who learned his craft sitting on Gordon Brown’s lap for a decade or is he the bloke who is prepared to change the game?”

    From beginning to end the question was unresolved. There was a party leader on stage and a policy programme on seats but no one knew what the relationship was between the one and the other. That morning, Labour had briefed the press that it would accept one of the IPPR’s 30 or so big ideas – to end out-of-work benefits for about 100,000 18- to 21-year-olds and replace them with a less expensive means tested allowance if they went into training.

    To those wanting a big, broad, new story to tell about the condition of Britain, their party’s response was a disappointment. “So this is it,” said one activist. “A policy designed to reassure the public that we, like the Tories, don’t like benefit scroungers. Where’s the big new offer there?”

    Marcus Roberts, deputy general secretary of the Fabian Society, observed that “shifting £65m from jobseekers’ allowance to non-vocational qualifications does not reimagine social democracy” and said victory in 2015 required more, including “radical change in policy and organisation alike”.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/22/ed-miliband-leadership-policy-labour

  22. Tautoko Viper 22

    Is the National Party socket puppet Rachel Glucina being used to undermine John Campbell?

    “Is trouble brewing behind the scenes at MediaWorks about the state of current affairs on TV3? A well-informed source tells The Diary there is a level of concern at “very senior levels” about daily current events show Campbell Live and whether adding a female co-host could be a solution.”

    “The Diary understands suggestions have been made that Campbell Live should make changes and reinvent itself.

    “The stories are often too depressing and need to be more uplifting and encompass the whole country. And there’s been too much focus on earthquake gripes and hyperbolised accounts of the GSCB,” said a source.

    “Campbell Live is Grey Lynn TV that’s used the situation in Christchurch to leverage a national audience, but that’s a one-trick pony.”

    “The show’s leanings, traditionally left, are also perhaps not in line with Kiwis’ thought patterns – which are more upbeat and confident at the moment.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11277598

    Paul Casserly in today’s Herald writes:

    “The Herald’s Rachel Glucina raised an interesting prospect last week in her column headed “Woman’s touch tipped as answer for Campbell”.

    Given that his ratings are lower than those on 7 Sharp, the theory goes that Campbell should get a lady in to help out about the place.

    Also, reading between the lines, the message from an unnamed ‘insider’ is that JC should stop moaning about the losers in our society and get behind our glorious leader Mr Key, and stop being a bloody communist.

    He should probably also abdicate and give his slot to Paul Henry and Janika ter Ellen while he’s at it.”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/television/news/article.cfm?c_id=339&objectid=11279776

    The Key, Slater, Glucina connection …

    • Molly 22.1

      Glucina’s thinly disguised self endorsement article has a poll which I answered just I could post current polling stats here. I’ll wash the mouse directly.

      As at 1.05pm Monday:
      “Yes – he’s been looking a little lonely. 19%
      Maybe – perhaps just on the odd night? 13%
      No – I like Campbell to fly solo. 68%”

      Maybe she is not as adept as she has led herself to believe. She should perhaps, get herself mentored by someone quite like her ownself to teach her how to relate to herself.

      (I am practising pointless wordage, so I can simultaneously discredit her, and then apply for her job. I am now working on a quote to give myself so I can receive it and then quote it in my finely tuned forthcoming article)

  23. Molly 23

    Was diverted this morning into a quick search on the Proposed Unitary Plan for Auckland and ended up in the volcanic viewshafts submissions.

    Was interested, but not particularly surprised to see the level of diligence that our now defunct Housing New Zealand took to try to ensure that future owners of then current HNZ stock, would not be impeded by any misguided attempt to ensure volcanic viewshafts and UNESCO Heritage status.

    Pages 1-41 of 46 pages are all HNZ – delete proposed viewshaft protection.

    It is amazingly how diligent and detailed government departments can be when they are inspired to be so…

  24. fisiani 24

    From the “You couldn’t make this shit up page”
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/247934/labour-pledges-red-zone-buy-out-offer

    This translates as
    If you are not insured and have a disaster then you get nothing.
    The National government being very generous has given people 50% of the value to help them get back on their feet. Very decent.
    Labour now claim that they will pay the uninsured the same money as the insured. Why on earth would anyone buy insurance if Labour came to power? What message does that send? Desperation for votes. Cash for votes.
    Kiwiassure is therefore stuffed as are all insurance companies. You can bribe some people some of the time but you cannot fool 50%.

    • freedom 24.1

      mmm $24 million, what can we buy for that?

      We could buy some broken houses and help some screwed over kiwis get back on their feet
      or feed a few bankers in a bail out banquet at Antoine’s and throw in some tickets to a yacht race

      no prizes for guessing which you would prefer fisiani

    • Molly 24.2

      Fisiani,

      When national and local governments provide permission through planning processes for development to occur, they are in effect saying that they have met their obligations to current and future owners of those properties that they will be fit for purpose.

      It is demonstrable that in regards to red-zone areas in Chch, that although council was aware of flooding risk, they still released that land.

      They failed to meet that fundamental trust and obligation.

      It is right that they carry some of the resulting cost.

      • fisiani 24.2.1

        What is the point of insurance if Labour gives you a payout whether you have it or not?
        This is just a cynical attempted bribe to buy a few votes in Christchurch. There are far more insured people than uninsured. Effectively through their taxes the insured and careful will subsidise the uninsured and feckless. For every vote it gains via bribery it loses 10 due to lack of principle.
        It’s as useless a tactic as telling the West Coasters that the windfall trees must rot on the forest floor and there cannot be jobs, wealth , timber for Christchurch and a windfall payout to DOC for conservation. For every 1 Green Taliban lover there are 100 sensible West Coasters.

        • Molly 24.2.1.1

          Oh, I thought it would be a waste of time providing you with reasonable answers in meaningful words. I decided I’d try anyway.

          I should have followed my initial instinct.

          Keep banging that repetitious drumbeat of yours Fisiani. The musicmakers of the world obviously live elsewhere.

        • vto 24.2.1.2

          For every 100 low socio economic taxpayers there is 1 south canterbury finance investor bludging $1,700,000,000 for their shonky, feckless, reckless and greedy investment habits.

          Get some scale you dumbarse.

          Btw, on just one particular point at hand you do realise that it is not possible to insure bare land, don’t you? I suspect not.

        • freedom 24.2.1.3

          “timber for Christchurch ” I can only assume you are meaning for building new houses? So I have to ask you fisiani…have you any idea how ridiculous that statement is? Apart from maybe a few sq meters making its way into a council building’s fancy panel work or being used as shelving in some one’s kitchen or den, there is no way reclaimed native timber is going to be used for house framing timber when current prices have 100mm x 50mm around $25 l/m.

          If those logs do get cleared, you will have to sit there and watch them head overseas like all our reclaimed swamp Kauri. I wonder if Oravida Kauri Ltd is going to be making an application?

        • NickS 24.2.1.4

          You’ve already been cluebatted on the forestry issue:

          Open mike 21/06/2014

          But hey, why bother with teh truth when you can ignore it instead and be shown to be an utter fool time and time again?

        • dv 24.2.1.5

          Cant GET insurance on bare land.

    • vto 24.3

      Not taking out private insurance has nothing to do with red-zoning and consequent payouts you muppet. Go get some learnings and stop trying to be a deceptive bastard like Browlee on this issue.

    • NickS 24.4

      🙄

      Because helping people affected significantly by a natural disaster is so totes a bad thing. Heck taking your line of thinking and running with it, one could argue that we shouldn’t give farmers and central government help vis droughts because often they don’t have insurance for it.

      Anyhow this is bloody good idea, insurance can be very difficult to pay for if you don’t have the income, which for many pensioner’s is a fact of life, as it is for anyone who ends up on a benefit or very low income while owning a house. Oh and amusingly WINZ used to help pay for insurance/rates/house maintenance because it works out cheaper than paying rental costs, but under Bennett such rational cost/benefit stuff has been thrown out in favour of treating beneficiaries like criminals.

      Or in terms you and the sewer can understand:
      food+power+other living costs>>>>house insurance

      The you’ve got those who forgot to renew their insurance and are now fucked or were excluded from the EQC buyout because they had a bar section, resulting in major financial problems for many of them.

      In terms of votes, helping people out and ye olde “fairness” issues are usually a vote winner and in the context of Christchurch, a major vote winner for Eastern, Central and South electorates, where the majority of people screwed over by Brownlee and EQC live.

      Also, quit being a coward and reply already: http://www.thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21062014/#comment-835915

    • Draco T Bastard 24.5

      Why insurance should be a state monopoly

      Society is the insurance policy.

  25. weka 25

    In the tsumani of comments on Smeargate not sure if this got mentioned already,

    “The same Herald article refers to right-wing commentator; National Party apparatchik, and professional lobbyist, Matthew Hooton, being hired by Donghua Liu, to change business migration laws in this country;”

    From Frank MacSkasy’s timeline http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/23/the-donghua-liu-timeline-damn-lies-dirty-tricks-and-a-docile-media/

  26. Molly 26

    Ended up where I needed to be to get some information about the PAUP – Proposed Auckland Unitary Plan. (Note: all those marketing degrees and they end up with an acronym that almost spells Pauper?)

    And came across this disquieting entry relating to submissions by the Ministry of Ed.

    Pulling up the wordy and repetitive document that entails the submission, it seems to ask that the 400 school sites in Auckland that it is responsible for no longer retain a special purpose zoning. Instead, that is replaced by the same zoning that exists in adjacent properties.

    What does this mean for schools?

    Since we don’t operate under the suggested Open Source democracy above who knows. But the cynic in me thinks – watch out school communities, your social value is steadily being eroded by this government, and this ensures that your capital value is easily ascertained and converted into cash.

  27. fisiani 27

    Kelvin Davis not in the top 10. Shafted by Labour again at 18. Unelectable. It will be a shitfight in TTT.

    • blue leopard 27.1

      Considering Labour got 34 seats last election and it was a fairly low voter turn out that year, I would say that you are making stuff up based on your own wishful thinking.

      By the way, I am interested to know do you do that confusing reality with fantasy stuff deliberately or is it that you have difficulty discerning the difference between the two?

      • Tracey 27.1.1

        BL

        Have been re reading Jaques Ellul. This reminded me of fisiani, bm and other right wing regurgitators

        ” People used to think that learning to read evidenced human progress; they still celebrate the decline of illiteracy as a great victory; they condemn countries with a large proportion of illiterates; they think that reading is a road to freedom. All this is debatable, for the important thing is not to be able to read, but to understand what one reads, to reflect on and judge what one reads. Outside of that, reading has no meaning (and even destroys certain automatic qualities of memory and observation). But to talk about critical faculties and discernment is to talk about something far above primary education and to consider a very small minority. The vast majority of people, perhaps 90% percent, know how to read, but do not exercise their intelligence beyond this. They attribute authority and eminent value to the printed word, or, conversely, reject it altogether. As these people do not possess enough knowledge to reflect and discern, they believe — or disbelieve — in toto what they read. And as such people, moreover, will select the easiest, not the hardest, reading matter, they are precisely on the level at which the printed word can seize and convince them without opposition. They are perfectly adapted to propaganda. “

        • blue leopard 27.1.1.1

          Oh dear, that sounds horribly familiar with people I know in RL (real life) too 🙁

          That bit about believing or disbelieving what is read solves a puzzle for me re how some people can appear intelligent yet become very ‘binary’ over certain things (black & white). At the point they become ‘binary’ there is no convincing them otherwise – no amount of easily understood, information (reasoned or otherwise) will change their minds. I figure that occurs when they have made that decision to disbelieve. At which point, any evidence to the contrary gets turned around in a manner that supports their argument. (Conspiracy theorists are guilty of this).

          Very interesting, I have never heard of the writer (about to google it). My mother has often said that about memory and reading – how learning to read affects memory, will have to ask her if she got it from that author . Very interesting ta!

          • Tracey 27.1.1.1.1

            formation of mens attitudes, was written in the sixties is worth a read and is downloadable for free.

            I revisit it every now and then.

            • blue leopard 27.1.1.1.1.1

              Downloadable, great! I just checked out the Wikipedia page on him – am rather surprised I don’t appear to have come across him at all – saw the book you mentioned on that page and it immediately sounded like something that would interest me (I am fascinated on how propaganda works on people…and also how to stop it working on people!). Glad to hear it is available online, will go and find it now!

              • In Vino

                George Bernard-Shaw said in the sexist language of his time: “It is not a man’s experience that makes him wise, but his capacity to learn from it.”

                Sexist maybe, but blissfully brief.?

    • McFlock 27.2

      live from the Planet Key broadcasting centre, it’s the tory-trippy-hour!

  28. dimebag russell 28

    nobody cares what you think fishyanus,
    you are an agent provocateur who always gets it wrong.
    Labour is about to clean up.
    I spoke to a died in the wool tory this morning in town and he said that real national people are getting tired of the prevarication and dissembling from this lot and they have just about had enough.
    hangers on are going to be swept aside.
    that means you fishy!

  29. Molly 29

    On the offchance that someone may know.

    I’ve been trying to identify a documentary series about water that was shown on either Prime TV or TVNZ7 a few years ago…

    Does anyone here remember it – and better still recall the name or the producer?

  30. One Anonymous Bloke 30

    When they get bought out at a fire sale price by Oravida the anonymous border officials will be handsomely rewarded.

    That’s how it’s done.

  31. aerobubble 31

    Thatcher came to power. Cheap energy trends set in. Progressive politics died and was taken over by the extreme right. Now every policy must have a tax cut for the wealth and cross taxation to sustain the welfare budget (what is family credits but getting childless low to middle income earner to pay for children of low to middle income earners and give the richest a tax cut). It was class war and the wealth won. Now we’re told home ownership is falling and that does not represent growing inequality.

  32. Ronnie Chow 32

    Since there can be no talk of an independent ideology formulated by the working masses themselves in the process of their movement, the only choice is – either bourgeois or socialist ideology. There is no middle course (for mankind has not created a “third” ideology).

    [lprent: Moved to OpenMike. Appears to have nothing to do with this post. Don’t do diversion trolling on posts. Read the policy. This is your warning. ]

  33. Tautoko Viper 33

    2007 Midlands Hawkes Bay Charity Wine Auction …was held 3 June 2007.
    Was this where Lui bought the wine?

    http://www.tizwine.com/index.php/ps_pagename/newsdetail?pi…548

    Spirits soared as the bidding reached $162700 at The Midland’s Hawkes Bay Charity Wine Auction held at the Hawkes Bay Opera House on Sunday.

    Click to access .pdf

    • ianmac 33.1

      Am I naive or did this auction actually take place? Be hilarious if Mr Liu did spend up large on this or devastaing for the Herald. They woulkd say sorry, sorry sorry or not.

  34. Colonial Viper 34

    Despite giving Americans a “blow job”, alliance with the US is “worthless”

    Apparently some distant protectorates of the Empire may not be as loyal to Rome as first appears.

    The Wprost news magazine said the recording was of a private conversation between [Polish Foreign Minister] Sikorski and Jacek Rostowski (finance minister) with such headlines as “you know that the Polish-US alliance isn’t worth anything;” also describing Warsaw’s attitude towards the United States using the Polish word “murzynskosc” – roughly translated as a negro slave – “It is downright harmful, because it creates a false sense of security … Complete bullshit. We’ll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we’ll think that everything is super

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-22/despite-giving-americans-blow-job-polish-foreign-minster-says-us-alliance-worthless

    • Draco T Bastard 34.1

      NZers need to realise the same thing – cosying up to the US won’t save us if/when the brown stuff hits the rotary air impeller.

  35. risildowgtn 35

    http://www.listener.co.nz/current-affairs/politics/revealed-labours-signed-wine-fundraiser/

    Be interesting to see how this one unfolds or another Tory Smear..

    re they saying Liu’s declaration is false? or is it true? the dates are quite a way apart…… will be watchin how they explain this one when it backfires 🙂

    • One Anonymous Bloke 35.1

      Shot down in flames by Rob Salmond (see comment below the creative writing essay). Humiliation is all The Listener is good for these days.

    • ianmac 35.2

      But a tweet from:
      Rob Salmond @rsalmond
      Follow

      @toby_etc I am familiar with the event. The wine you refer to sold for $1,600, and I have seen the record proving it was not to Mr Liu.
      5:05 PM – 23 Jun 2014

      • greywarbler 35.2.1

        The piece showing the Auction catalogue entries has been lost in translation to my computer with percentages all over the place. It looks like one of those brain tests where you instinctively know what a part word is. How good to put the story to bed. The Hairy will be upset – it looked as if it would percolate for weeks, carefully heated.

      • risildowgtn 35.2.2

        Hah good job…. will go follow him and get that tweet and spread it far and wide ….. o the irony of seeing trolls jump in anger is sooooooooooooooo satisfying

  36. karol 37

    A post by Jan Logie – something to read with a heavy heart. This is the stuff the NActs don’t want us to know about while they congratulate themselves on being oh so good at the dirty tricks, celebrity politics diversions, and double speak.

    “Work and income – stories from hidden people”

    Shameful that this is happening in NZ. It’s also something to link to every time some rightie starts saying no-one in NZ needs to be poor – it’s their choice.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 37.1

      Until the Left takes human rights seriously, and enables the police and courts to prosecute breaches whether or not people were just following National Party orders, nothing will change. Apart from our international reputation sliding further into the gutter, that is.

      Our forbears fought wars to protect human rights: they won. Don’t let the National Party re-litigate the outcome.

      PS: start with accessory/conspiracy to murder charges against anyone who has facilitated US drone strikes in any way, and go from there. Demand the accused be extradited from Hawaii if necessary.

    • i just read that link..and it made me angry..

      ..i’ve done time..hung with junkies and crims..done battle with screws..

      ..and have moved in and out of various (scary to some) subcultures around the planet..

      ..but the people who i have met on this planet who i think are ..in the main..absolute fucken scum…

      ..are the sadistic fucks at work and income..

      ..and one of my largest motivations to argue for a universal basic income..

      ..is ‘cos most of those useless excuses for ill-educated/dumb-as-fucken-doorknobs/useless for anything else/wastes of space wd not be not needed..wd be out of a job..

      ..and i wd love to be given the job of firing their arses..i wd volunteer(unpaid..)

      ..these people are (in the main) sick/sadistic fucks..

      ..and my skin crawls i loathe them so much..

      ..and you may think..that being a man raising a kid..you wd at least get treated the same as women in the same position..

      ..nah..!..those (in the main) woman-witches seem to see you as payback for every male that ‘did them wrong’..and treat you accordingly..

      ..i can’t think of any other reason for their actions/treatment of me..and those others they are meant to be there to help..

      ..it is a sick fucken institutional-culture..with them loathing their ‘clients’..treating them with contempt..

      ..making them jump thru hoops..just generally fucking them over in every way possible..

      ..and their fucken ‘seminars’..?..dumb-shit/waste-of-time…braindead-fucken-morons talking absolute drivel..

      ..people you wouldn’t trust to hammer in a fucken nail .. lecturing/bullying/threatening….

      ..(and that is part of the head-fuck..as these morons ruling over you..bullying/fucking with yr life/head..are clearly not competent to do anything else..

      ..except maybe parking-wardens..?..or shovelling shit somewhere..?..)

      ..at one this harridan running it started going off at the lady sitting next to me..was ranting away/bullying her….

      ..then i pointed out to her that the lady did not speak english/could not understand her…..

      ..did she apologise to her..?..hell no..!

      ..but she did make her sit thru the rest of what she couldn’t understand..

      ‘cos for them it is a numbers game..a quota thru their seminars..job done..!

      ..in every town..all those people..in all those buildings..not needed if we have a universal basic income..

      ..and those winz-buildings..in many towns/provincial-centres..the flashest building in town..

      ..they cd be turned over to the people to use as education/online/community-centres/w.h.y-resources..

  37. Rodel 38

    Used to enjoy Hoskings on Radio. Was a bit like Mary Wilson, hard incisive questions but with age and riches he’s become just another Paul Henry celebrity shock dick. Shame really.

  38. srylands 39

    If the media report is correct that the TPP will not be successfully negotiated this year, then that is a real shame, but we simply press on. The Uruguay Round took 8 years to negotiate and delivered enormous benefits for the world in freeing trade. New Zealand was a strong advocate, and our unilateral trade liberalisation was an example for everyone.

    The TPP will be finalised, and ratified by New Zealand some time in the next two years. I hope it has bilateral support from Labour. If not no doubt the next National Government will press ahead after the election. There is no alternative.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11280085

    • McFlock 39.1

      The TPPA is a dead duck. Just like the MAI.

    • freedom 39.2

      It is really sad that you feel a global cabal of corporate contracts that tie up every country on earth and put self-determination on the scrap heap, is a good thing. That or you simply fail to understand how all the other versions of the TPPA that are also being negotiated around the planet, fit together.

      Personally srylands, I feel it is the latter that is your particular problem.

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