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Open mike 22/08/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 22nd, 2012 - 208 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

208 comments on “Open mike 22/08/2012”

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  1. Te Reo Putake 1
    22 August 2012 at 7:12 am

    British MP George Galloway may have to change the name of his party. ‘Respect’ doesn’t seem appropriate for a rape apologist.

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/mps-defence-of-assange-triggers-consensual-sex-row-20120821-24kny.html

    • locus 1.1
      22 August 2012 at 8:09 am

      what follows is my view on Galloway’s utterance… it has nothing to do with Assange. Nor does it in any way suggest that I think Assange is guilty of the claims made against him.

      So here we go Mr Galloway…..why do some men think it’s okay to have sex with someone after they’ve said no? And why do some men think that if you’ve already had sex once then you’ve “entered a sex game” which means ‘forced sex’ – hang on – not ‘forced’ because the woman was asleep – is somehow not rape?

      Or to put it another way, rape – if you’ve never had sex with the woman before – is ‘real’ rape, but if you’ve already had sex with her before, the next time can’t be ‘real’ rape – even if she said no?

      I guess that if you stay in the same bed with someone after saying no, you must have a high degree of trust that the other person will not ignore your wishes and will certainly not force themselves on you when you are asleep. How utterly awful it must be if you are then raped while asleep – and by the very person you trusted.

      Those who want to debate shades of grey, simply don’t consider what it’s like from the perpective of the victim. This kind of experience can seriously scar and have awful consequences – maybe years later.

      I think it’s very very sad if the man is so drunk he has no self control – but it’s no less damaging to the woman (and possibly to the man’s future), because from the woman’s point of view it’s still rape – and any amount of argument about the definition of ‘rape’ is not going to make a jot of difference to how the woman may be feeling.

      • marty mars 1.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 9:04 am

        This is a reply to locus at 1.1

        I agree with you. I’m interested in who is generally making these assertions that non-consensual sex is not rape (even though it is legally rape here) – that it’s just some sex-game – they seem to be males of a certain age and I wonder why that is. Whatever their reasons, I despise them for their disgusting views.

        and by the way this is not about julian

        • Bill 1.1.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 9:49 am

          (also not about Julian)

          Could it be because there are men who have a fantasy about awakening to the fuck being given them by (oh, lets go completly cliched) *that* big boobed blonde…or who-ever? Y’know, they reckon it would be a pretty damned good start to the day. And since they have no problem being fucked while asleep and actually quite like the notion, then hell! – how could anyone else possibly find anything objectionable about it?

          • marty mars 1.1.1.1.1
            22 August 2012 at 10:01 am

            That’s right bill – I’m sure they also agree with todd atkin about ‘legitimate rape’ after all, that is what they are saying too.

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19335083

            http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/birds-of-feather.html

            • Bill 1.1.1.1.1.1
              22 August 2012 at 10:51 am

              Hmm. Not too sure about equating the attitudes of Galloway with the pronouncements of Akin. Sure, both sets of attitudes diminish or ‘disappear’ women. But I’d suggest Akin’s diminishing is of a different order in the scale of things.

              Akin appears to be saying that rape or (at least some of) its consequences are kind of okay even where all and sundry would agree that rape was inflicted.

              Galloway on the other hand appears confused on what might constitute sex and what might constitute rape.

              • weka …
                22 August 2012 at 11:45 am

                I think they are similar, it’s just that Akin’s line is drawn differently than Galloways. But they both run the line that some rape is real but other rape isn’t. Akin is basically saying that most rape that results in pregnancy isn’t real: in real rape women’s bodies shut down and they don’t get pregnant, therefore any woman who wants an abortion after rape is probably lying and it wasn’t really rape to start with.
                 
                Yes, there are degrees of difference within their views, but they’re both basically saying that women don’t have sovereignty over their bodies, that they lie about rape, and both are contributing significantly to rape culture.

          • QoT 1.1.1.1.2
            22 August 2012 at 10:45 pm

            This kind of “argument” comes up a lot, Bill – you know, the classic “but I’d be flattered if a hot chick wolf-whistled at me from a car!” “I’d totally be okay with a woman propositioning me in an elevator!” kind of responses to serious discussions about rape culture / misogyny / women’s assumed consent etc.

            Of course for some reason it’s always based on “if someone I totally already wanted to fuck”. Wishful thinking, I guess.

      • just saying 1.1.2
        22 August 2012 at 10:00 am

        I wish we didn’t have to have this conversation. It’s as difficult as it is important.
        I just wanted to say that husbands were still legally allowed to force their wives to have sex with them in NZ as recently as 1982. Galloway grew up in a world in which many men felt they had conquest rights over other people’s bodies.

        Too many in my mother’s generation had their own potential for sexual pleasure destroyed as they found their husbands claimed their “rights” against their own wishes, when they were exhausted or in pain, when they were sleeping or, or trying to have a bath, or just whenever, with absolutely no regard for their wishes or their sovereignty to their own bodies.

        Social mores do change (than goodness)

    • Morrissey 1.2
      22 August 2012 at 8:23 am

      ‘Respect’ doesn’t seem appropriate for a rape apologist.

      He is no such thing. You’re deliberately and maliciously misconstruing his words.

      • Te Reo Putake 1.2.1
        22 August 2012 at 8:40 am

        It’s easy to get a rise out of you, Mozza. So you’ve got that in common with Assange, boom tssssh!

        Anything to say about the substance of the report? Or is it too uncomfortable for you to comment on?

        • Morrissey 1.2.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 8:47 am

          It’s easy to get a rise out of you, Mozza. So you’ve got that in common with Assange, boom tssssh!

          Yes, well done, Te Reo. That’s another round to you, my friend.

          Anything to say about the substance of the report? Or is it too uncomfortable for you to comment on?

          I think Galloway has a big mouth and he’s incapable of thinking before he speaks. His words are ill chosen and insensitive, but I don’t think he’s a rape apologist.

        • kiwi_prometheus 1.2.1.2
          22 August 2012 at 10:24 am

          You don’t think this whole “crying rape” thing has any connection with Assange pissing off the most powerful and corrupt institutions and individuals in the world?

          • Morrissey 1.2.1.2.1
            22 August 2012 at 1:31 pm

            Of course. Te Reo knows that too.

          • weka 1.2.1.2.2
            22 August 2012 at 3:16 pm

            You don’t think this whole “crying rape” thing has any connection with Assange pissing off the most powerful and corrupt institutions and individuals in the world?
             

            Certainly. There is a very clear connection between the people who think that Assange is innocent of rape and that the women complainants are liars (they’re the ones using the terms like ‘crying rape’), and the left’s agenda to resist attempts to suppress Assange and wikileaks.
             
             

      • Vicky32 1.2.2
        22 August 2012 at 6:45 pm

        He is no such thing. You’re deliberately and maliciously misconstruing his words.

        Seconded! 🙂

    • kiwi_prometheus 1.3
      22 August 2012 at 10:20 am

      Feminists are US Government tools, who would have guessed?

      Some crazy feminist calling it “sexual violence”. Who needs the CIA when you can wind up the Feminists and point them at your target?

      • Morrissey 1.3.1
        22 August 2012 at 12:53 pm

        Who needs the CIA when you can wind up the Feminists and point them at your target?

        It’s not “the Feminists” who are going after Assange. The Swedish branch of Women Against Rape has issued the strongest possible condemnation of these wild allegations.

        • weka 1.3.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 3:12 pm

          No they haven’t. Stop misusing Women Against Rape to support your own rape apologist ideas.
           
          What WAR did was point out that
           

          There is a long tradition of the use of rape and sexual assault for political agendas that have nothing to do with women’s safety.
           

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-rape-allegations-freedom-of-speech
           
          Further
           

          Following our complaint Gilligan’s Daily Telegraph blog has changed somewhat. But where is the apology for his slanderous misrepresentation of WAR?

          Dear Marcus Warren

          Andrew Gilligan’s blog on the Telegraph website “Ken Livingstone loses a few thousand more votes” totally misrepresents Women Against Rape. He says:

          “My running-dog thesis is that both the major events of the past week – the arrest of Wikileaks’ Julian Assange on rape allegations, and the student ruck in Parliament Square – were specially arranged by some sort of Tory deity to confuse the Left and make it look stupid.

          What else are we to make of the demand by Women Against Rape, no less, that the rape allegations against Mr Assange must not be investigated and the great hero immediately freed?”

          We never said or implied any of this. We simply questioned the unusual zeal with which he is being pursued when so many rapists in both Britain and Sweden are not (Guardian letters, 9 December, see below). The figures speak for themselves: 90% of reported rapes never reach court in Sweden; the conviction rate is 6.5% in the UK and similar in Sweden; men accused of rape are routinely granted bail.

          We are an independent women’s organisation which has campaigned for rape to be taken seriously and we have been supporting victims of rape for 34 years. We do not take kindly to women’s demand for protection and justice being misused to forward political agendas, which is what Mr Gilligan seems intent on, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst.

          Mr Gilligan’s distortion of what we said misrepresents and undermines what we stand for, and we can only wonder why he is doing that. We stand for justice not for lynch mobs. Where does Mr Gilligan stand?

          We would like to know what will be done to rectify his slanderous statement.

          Sincerely,

          Katrin Axelsson
          Women Against Rape
           

          http://www.womenagainstrape.net/content/complaint-re-andrew-gilligan-misrepresenting-women
           

          While we cannot comment on the allegations against Mr Assange since we do not know the facts of the case, we do not condone attacks against the women who reported him. Whatever the merits of their allegations, it is not them but the criminal justice authorities in both Sweden and England who are responsible for the way in which these allegations are being dealt with. The authorities’ poor record in dealing with rape has given the go-ahead to claims that most women who report rape are liars. In fact, police and prosecutors are often the first to disbelieve women – we are fighting several cases of rape victims being imprisoned for making a false allegation after they reported rape but were disbelieved by the authorities.

          In defence of women and girls, and of anyone who has suffered rape or sexual assault, we cannot allow political agendas to pervert our struggle for justice.

           

          http://www.womenagainstrape.net/content/additional-statement-women-against-rape-regarding-
           
           
          When she says “We do not take kindly to women’s demand for protection and justice being misused to forward political agendas, which is what Mr Gilligan seems intent on, while rape continues to be neglected at best or protected at worst” she’s talking about people like you Morrissey, as well as the powers trying to suppress Assange.
           
          More on Women Against Rape’s position on the Assange case:
           
          http://www.womenagainstrape.net/category/tags/julian-assange
           
           

        • Vicky32 1.3.1.2
          22 August 2012 at 6:49 pm

          It’s not “the Feminists” who are going after Assange. The Swedish branch of Women Against Rape has issued the strongest possible condemnation of these wild allegations.

          Good point!
          What some don’t seem to get, is that we who suspect these particular women of having let’s say, not the purest of motive, are not saying that all women who complain of rape are liars!

          • weka 1.3.1.2.1
            22 August 2012 at 7:21 pm

            That’s right, you’re just saying that public opinion gets to decide which women lie about rape 🙄

            • KJT 1.3.1.2.1.1
              22 August 2012 at 7:26 pm

              No. Just that it is all too convenient that various people suddenly become rapists if they are too inconvenient to some Governments.

              • weka …
                22 August 2012 at 7:33 pm

                Why is that more likely than the left wing Hero having very dodgy sexual boundaries AND the powers against wikileaks using that against him?
                 
                There is nothing at all incompatible with the Hero being a hero and a rapist AND the force of evil using that to harm him.

                • QoT …
                  22 August 2012 at 10:48 pm

                  My question, weka, is why are otherwise-intelligent people sincerely trying to argue that being charged with rape is Totally The Worst Thing Ever?

                  We all know that very few rapes get reported, even fewer get prosecuted, an infinitesimal number get convictions, and whenever the accused is a celebrity (reference: any rugby played accused of sexual assault EVER) there is in fact the complete opposite of a negative societal response. Woman’s Weekly covers are practically guaranteed.

                  Yet we’re meant to believe that the Globalised US Hegemony can’t come up with better shit than rape accusations? At least in Blake’s 7 they had a sufficient understanding of human culture to make it child molestation.

                  • felix …
                    23 August 2012 at 9:55 am

                    Yep.

                    If you wanted to frame someone with a crime and you wanted it to stick, it wouldn’t be rape.

                    Any KAOS agent worth their salt should know that.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 August 2012 at 10:00 am

                      Rape is a perfect character assassination allegation. Remember the goal here is not for the ‘charges to stick’ in a court of law. For instance no charges have to be laid, no session of court held, no finding reached, for Assange to be permanently screwed and permanently placed on the run. Job done.

                      NB as weka has said, its more than possible for Assange to be fully guilty of the allegations AND for these legal proceedings to be manipulated by international powers for their own advantage. The two are not mutually exclusive.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      23 August 2012 at 10:28 am

                      CV, the goal is to have a man accused of sexual assault face the accusation and defend himself. If Assange’s own behaviour exposes him to the risk of extradition to another country to face unrelated charges, bad luck. That sort of thing happens all the time; eg. a driver gets pulled over for a traffic violation, and gets arrested for a warrant issued on earlier alleged crimes or gets deported for being an illegal immigrant etc.
                       
                      And, to be clear, if the US has a legally sound case to extradite Assange from the UK or Sweden to face charges that he has broken US law, then he should be extradited to face those charges, too. In saying that, I note that both countries will not extradite if the death penalty is a possible outcome, something I agree with.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      23 August 2012 at 10:40 am

                      If Assange’s own behaviour exposes him to the risk of extradition to another country to face unrelated charges, bad luck.

                      Extradition to another country to face unrelated charges is completely unacceptable given the specific circumstances:

                      – That the country in question is likely to be the US
                      – That relevant charges have already been secretly laid, in the US, via a sealed indictment.
                      – That Assange’s chances for fair treatment and a fair trial in the US is minimal.
                      – That permanent incarceration in a military prison like Guanatanamo Bay is tolerable by Sweden etc as it is not the “death penalty”.
                      – That any such charges would be based as Assange acting as a publisher or journalist, and not as a leaker of secret information (Manning supposedly leaked the information to Wikileaks, Assange’s organisation published it).

                      Your cavalier attitude (that it’s just “bad luck”) painfully underplays how significant an issue this is for the chilling effect it will have on whistleblowers, journalists and publishers world wide.

                      You also avoid the topic of deliberate manipulation of the legal system by major powers to achieve political ends other than the provision of impartial justice to victims of crime.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      23 August 2012 at 10:59 am

                      Nope, not even close. The only chilling effect will be on men who can’t take no for an answer, hopefully. And despite your optimism, none of the issues you list prevent Assange’s eventual extradition. And that is as it should be, because the law should not be bent or ignored for the famous. There is no Assange Exemption, just is there is no wealth or power exemption.
                       
                      I’ve seen plenty of references to Assange’s ‘bravery’ in these discussions. That suggests he knew that what he did at Wikileaks had risks attached, one of which is that publishing the military secrets of a country might tend to be illegal in that country. If you know the risk and go ahead anyway, why complain if it all goes pear shaped?
                       
                      One irony of this situation is that the UK will probably look to extradite him back from Sweden when his court case there is completed to face charges of skipping bail. If he ever does get sent to the USA, it’ll probably be from the UK then, not Sweden now.

                    • QoT …
                      23 August 2012 at 8:29 pm

                      Rape is a perfect character assassination allegation.

                      Yes, that’s why no one watches Roman Polanski films any more.

                      [And, just for the record, he unquestionably drugged and raped an underage woman before fleeing the country where he faced prosecution. Which is why everyone took it so seriously.]

                  • RedLogix …
                    23 August 2012 at 8:50 pm

                    is why are otherwise-intelligent people sincerely trying to argue that being charged with rape is Totally The Worst Thing Ever?

                    One of the core problems with this type of crime is that in our society sex is almost always conducted in private, so in the absence of physical evidence, the case often comes down to ‘he said, she said’. Which cuts both ways; for while this fact will often make it very difficult for a genuine prosecution to leap over the ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ hurdle … it also makes it very difficult for a genuine defendant to dispel the stigma of a false accusation.

                    • just saying …
                      23 August 2012 at 9:27 pm

                      I thought the theory was that the charges were a roundabout way of getting Assange exradited to the US, not to get him stigmatised. Rape charges may or may not be useful for creating “the stigma of a false allegation”. As a vehicle for extradition they are less than ideal, and it’s hard to imagine the US couldn’t come up with something much more effective.

          • KJT 1.3.1.2.2
            22 August 2012 at 7:24 pm

            Exactly.

          • OneTrack 1.3.1.2.3
            22 August 2012 at 10:25 pm

            But you now seem to be saying that “some” women who complain of rape ARE liars. Thanks for clearing that up. Should make a good topic for discussion at the next branch meeting.

            So how can we tell which ones they are?

  2. muzza 2
    22 August 2012 at 7:33 am

    The failed futures brokerage Sentinel Management Group lost the money of its clients in when it went into bankruptcy in 2007. According to the SEC, the firm misappropriated the funds belonging to its clients.

    Where indeed are the missing funds? Apparently they have ‘vaporized’, MF Global style. How could the court possibly conclude that Sentinel was not acting in bad faith and did not intend to defraud its customers? If $460 million in customer funds were ‘transferred to a house account’ where they were ‘serving improperly as collateral for loans extended to Sentinel Management Group’, that clearly means they were stolen, respectively ‘misappropriated’.

    The Sentinel Ruling: HERE

  3. mickysavage 3
    22 August 2012 at 7:37 am

    The asset sales programme is on the ropes.

    Solid Energy’s latest results are poor and it would fetch a small price.  Add to MRP’s water ownership issues and Tiwai Point threatening to renegotiate its contract with Meridian and all is not happy in asset sales land. 

    Remember the sales proceeds have been booked in the country’s accounts.  There is now a $5 billion hole in the income side. 

  4. Carol 4
    22 August 2012 at 7:38 am

    The Standard is looking and working fine for me on IE, but struggling on Firefox.

    • DH 4.1
      22 August 2012 at 8:09 am

      Yup, me too. Firefox won’t format the page but IE works fine.

      • lprent 4.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 9:09 am

        Dropped cloudflare out for the moment. That seems to be the main problem.

        It will tend to slow the site but will do until I can fix on some decent bandwidth with a test suite of browsers

        Hold the SHIFT key down when clicking refresh. That should force the cache to reload

        • Carol 4.1.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 9:12 am

          Thanks. Yes, I am commenting using firefox now. It loaded fine and reasonably fast, too.

        • r0b 4.1.1.2
          22 August 2012 at 9:46 am

          The site is loading much more quickly and reliably for me this morning than it has for many weeks.

          Is anyone else finding this true?

          • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2.1
            22 August 2012 at 9:49 am

            Actually, yes. And it is nice to be able to use Firefox again.

          • felix 4.1.1.2.2
            22 August 2012 at 9:56 am

            Yep, loading better than it has for some time.

            Handy hint: When TS is hard to access just go to Pete George’s site instead. He reports on everything that happens here so you won’t miss a thing. 😉

          • lprent 4.1.1.2.3
            22 August 2012 at 10:10 am

            Yeah it will for people in NZ because I turned cloudflare off and you’re now talking directly to a server inside NZ. But there is some irony in this.

            It costs $20 per month for cloudflare. Normally this sends NZ traffic out to their servers which appear to be all offshore. It then caches the site so efficiently that we have a massive drop in the traffic at our main server, because we’re really only providing data to cloudflare to disperse. Nett effect is that our main server traffic is down to a trickle and most of it apart from admin is overseas traffic. Meanwhile everyone reading our site from NZ is picking up something like 250GB per month mostly over the Southern Cross cable.

            So why do I do this? Well the rationing system for the Southern Cross cable is at the NZ servers. We have a ration of about GB of overseas traffic on our main dedicated server. Most plans are 20-25GB, ours is a bit larger. Almost all of our overseas traffic is bots. Searchbots and RSS are legit and wanted, and we run a persistent war against other types of bots. However we currently get charged $2/GB for anything over our ration. This in most months is at least $100. In bad months it has been known to go up and be more than the base cost of the server.

            So it saves us a lot of money to increase the traffic over the southern cross using cloudflare by forcing our readers to read the site from overseas servers. We do this to reduce the excessive charging for overseas traffic at our server that we mostly don’t want. Perverse eh?

            It’d be nice if cloudflare had a server inside NZ. But they won’t because the overseas data charges would be too high.

            Such is the life with a monopoly supplier of bandwidth.

            Cloudflare will be going back on as soon as I have chance to debug it. In the couple of months it has been on it, it has cost $40 and has saved us something like $300. It has probably cost the country a damn sight more.

            But in reality it is going to be simpler to just move the main servers back offshore and get out of this bloody silly charging nightmare. There I can hire servers with massive caps that the site cannot exceed for less than we pay for here. The alternative is to run a much cheaper virtual server with cloudflare keeping the CPU down at the server.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2.3.1
              22 August 2012 at 10:39 am

              Ah, the joys of the free-market – absolutely no bloody sense anywhere.

              • tc …
                22 August 2012 at 11:25 am

                Yup and the stn cross cable has ooddles of capacity if the owners wanted to light it up they could.

                Yet another con run by telecom that we pay through the nose for.

            • Jim Nald 4.1.1.2.3.2
              22 August 2012 at 11:24 am

              I need to bank the deposit slip that provides a symbolic amount to The Standard.
              I have been carying that bit of paper in my wallet for a while, forgetting to drop by the bank during lunchtime 🙂

              • lprent …
                22 August 2012 at 4:00 pm

                Always willing to take donations 🙂

                • Jim Nald …
                  22 August 2012 at 9:22 pm

                  Done. ‘Twas a wee one. Will make a larger donation in a couple of weeks 🙂

                  • lprent …
                    22 August 2012 at 9:38 pm

                    It is the recognition that means a lot in this lonely life waiting for the internet to resume in its full flood… 🙂

                    Finally got to talk to a chorus tech. It looks like there isn’t a way to communicate a simple message from Orcon to Chorus like I need a ADSL filter taken out at the apartment blocks switchboard, and the building manager is only here for a few hours in the week. Just like I couldn’t book a move because the my tenant leaving hadn’t booked a move order. *sigh* I guess that it is still frigging ICMS – sounds like a RPG type problem. But now I have talked to an tech – friday morning!

                    No e-mail for a few days. My mail server is offline….

        • DH 4.1.1.3
          22 August 2012 at 10:24 am

          Thanks lprent, FF works ok now. Was no fun using IE 6.

          • lprent 4.1.1.3.1
            22 August 2012 at 10:27 am

            I would think not. I suspect that the problem was with some kind of minifying the CSS that resulted in not having ANY CSS from the site. So you saw the site without the makeup 🙂

          • David H 4.1.1.3.2
            22 August 2012 at 12:12 pm

            Sorry but why would you use he most buggy version of Internet Exploder?? FF is the only thing I use in here, and yesterday was a little problematic. But apart from that I usually have no problems.

            • DH 4.1.1.3.2.1
              22 August 2012 at 1:14 pm

              Because IE6 was the most secure of MS browsers, last release I could lock down & know it was safe. Never found it particularly buggy, still use it occasionally when I need ActiveX which FF doesn’t support. It also renders fonts on some sites better than FF. Bit dated now, crashes on the likes of Paypal, but I refuse to use the later versions of IE which are a security nightmare IMO.

              Most people had trouble with IE because they didn’t know how to use it.

    • lprent 4.2
      22 August 2012 at 8:56 am

      Ummm.

      Ok I will have a look at work (haven’t set up the usual web development environ’s on this computer yet). And I’m running on my cellphone at home right now.

      Waiting for Chorus at home to put my link back on. Was meant to be last night – didn’t happen (which was interesting – loading too much work on them?). And that is just at the exchange. They’re going to have to come here to remove a ADSL splitter at the apartment’s block board – had to cut the lines and remove the hole in the floor when we polished the concrete.

      Not looking forward to that because I have to get a time when both the building manager and the tech actually get here at the same time and take time off work. In the meantime half of my home systems are down.

      • Carol 4.2.1
        22 August 2012 at 9:02 am

        Thanks for the response. No rush.

        I can manage fine with TS on IE at the moment. I hope things get sorted out at your home without any more problems.

        • lprent 4.2.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 9:10 am

          Grr…

          Worst part of moving is getting the network connections back in place.

          • just saying 4.2.1.1.1
            22 August 2012 at 9:43 am

            It’s nice to have the Standard back.
            For those unable to access through firefox, I just bounced over from ‘idle thoughts of an idle fellow’ (always worth a read). And presto the site is restored to normality.

  5. muzza 5
    22 August 2012 at 7:48 am

    US lifts sanctions, allows Iran quake relief

    Under the general license, which will remain in effect until October 5, 2012, an NGO can transfer funds up to $300,000 during the 45-day period to Iran to be used for humanitarian relief and reconstruction activities related to the earthquake response,” the Treasury said.

    “NGOs interested in transferring more than $300,000 during the 45-day period may apply for a specific license.”

    “It is important to note that the general license specifically forbids any dealings or involvement with individuals or entities designated for support for the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction or terrorism,” the Treasury said.

    Just had to remember to insinuate Iran has WMD’s, and sponsors “terrorism”. You wouldn’t want people to forget those crucial “facts” amongst the “charity” of lifting sanctions!

    America fcuk yeah…..

    • Vicky32 5.1
      22 August 2012 at 6:52 pm

      Just had to remember to insinuate Iran has WMD’s, and sponsors “terrorism”. You wouldn’t want people to forget those crucial “facts” amongst the “charity” of lifting sanctions!
      America fcuk yeah…..

      They’re rotten bar-stewards…

  6. stever 6
    22 August 2012 at 7:52 am

    Governments like those in NZ and UK say they shouldn’t pick winners, shouldn’t invest directly in the country, should not plan but leave the market to decide, seem to act differently when it comes to Olympic sport where we see record investment, ruthless targeting and rigorous planning.

    Good article on this (UK-based, but relevant here too):

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/osborne-pay-heed-olympics-triumph

  7. Morrissey 7
    22 August 2012 at 7:55 am

    Defamation, distortion and disinformation
    Murdoch turns his guns on Ecuador

    Wednesday 22 August 2012

    Of course, it comes as no surprise that Ecuador’s heroic president is now the object of the scorn and fury of the U.S. and U.K. governments.

    Over the last few days, we’ve looked at how British state TV and state radio, and “liberal” papers like the ridiculous but loyal Grauniad have faithfully served as an unquestioning conduit of government black propaganda, no matter how fanciful and wild it might be.

    But, really, the leaders in this sort of thing are still the Murdoch outlets. From the illiberal but well-bred ideologues at the Times right through to the mouth-breathing dolts and giddy loons of Fox News, one thing you know the Murdoch empire will deliver is consistency.

    This morning on TV3, I watched Rachel Smalley adopt her gravest expression to introduce an outrageous item from Murdoch’s British Sky TV. Dominic Waghorn, in tones of the deepest sincerity, tried to show how the “defiant” Ecuadorian prime minister, while appearing to protect a journalist, is in fact stomping all over press freedom.

    Viewers are treated to these words by right wing Ecuadorian journalist Jorge Ortiz: “I think Correa is fooling the world. He uses very wisely the media to present himself as a leader that respects and promotes free press which is not true. We’re very worried, very worried indeed we know that he is killing the right of journalists to express themselves. I’m sure that within two or three years there will not be any free press in Ecuador.”

    Dominic Waghorn ends the item with this magnificently sententious peroration: “Julian Assange may be enjoying the full protection of the Ecuadorian state; others who have spoken out against it may not be so lucky.”

    Of course, if we want to find an example of leaders who actually do “kill the right of journalists” not only to “express themselves”, but to tell the truth, Mr Ortiz and Mr Waghorn would be intoning grandly (and truthfully, not dishonestly) about Barack Obama and David Cameron.

    Anyway, whether you’re a horror fan or just an aficionado of shameless propaganda, here’s Dominic Waghorn’s horrifying piece…
    http://news.sky.com/story/975133/ecuador-leader-stays-bold-over-assange-asylum

    • Murray Olsen 7.1
      23 August 2012 at 1:19 am

      Most of South America’s media outlets are run by local versions of Murdoch who have supported dictatorships and endlessly promote military intervention against democratically elected governments. If whoever runs the media in Ecuador is anything like Brazil’s Roberto Marinho was, suppressing them is actually working in favour of freedom of the press. I also look at putting Murdoch in prison the same way.

      • xtasy 7.1.1
        23 August 2012 at 1:40 am

        Sadly you are generally right, hence what is needed is a balane of sorts:



        This is just a selection that was also largely nver broadcast, esxscept on state media.

        We have a media dictatorship in NZ, in Australia and the US, where commercial media is all that counts. The few token indepentend or left leaning journos are a fucking sick joke here. They are rather pre-occupied with some weird lifestyle choices, they do NOT give a damn about the needs and suffering of low waged, of beneficiaries and others down the ladder, they only “abuse” topics about them to get soem stories out that may sell, also in mainstream, of which they often rely for at least additional income.

        NZ has NO left, it is devoid of truly independent and left thinking media and so forth, except the rudimentary forums like this perhaps.

        NZ is almost a dictatorship of sorts, where the commercial elite control and manipulate the whole media, TVNZ included, daily. There is NO independent reporting, NO real information of substance, it is a DESERT media landscape not to be taken seriously, but to be a truly HOSTILE ground for free thinking and opinion now.

        That is my opinon, you may think differently, but you will have to struggle to convince me of otherwise.

        It will be welcomed, but make an “effort”, please, as I cannot bother with half wits.

        Buenos noches amigos

  8. Rosie 8
    22 August 2012 at 8:16 am

    Hey Deuto,

    Thanks for the response and link to Giovanni Tiso’s blog yesterday. The comments around third way politics/Tony Blair were interesting. Look where that got the UK. Fail.
    It seems I doubled up on what you had previously posted re Deborah Russells article. It was heartening to read her words and like you I hope Richard Long stays away from the “Opinion” column and never comes back. It would be a breath of fresh air to have a columnist with a rational, intelligent and socially minded view featuring in the Dominion Post.

    Despite Deborah Russells reassuring words I decided that David Shearers comment was the last straw for me as a Labour voter. Thats a bit sad after all these years.Theres just been too many WTF? moments and there no going back. Hunter S Thompson comes to mind. “When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro”. I think thats what Labour have done.

    • deuto 8.1
      22 August 2012 at 11:41 am

      No problem re double-up – hope others here also read Deborah’s article and Giovanni’s as imo these are some of the best summations I have seen – and exactly the approach I wish Labour would take. Shearer’s bene bashing has also left me ‘cold’ and there would need to be a lot of change within Labour (parliamentary) for me to continue to vote for them.

      PS – how about an update on the new home/garden etc on Weekend Social this week!

      • Rosie 8.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 12:18 pm

        Sure thing deuto!

        You must be a sucker for punishment if you want to hear about rock strata and grass grub:) I owe Joe90 a thank you for his advice on the “wrecking bar” to break the rocks but thats another story for another time…………

  9. ad 9
    22 August 2012 at 9:09 am

    Is it just me or is David Cunliffe now sufficiently cowed by his caucus that he is letting David Parker do all Labour’s speeches and articles on the economy these days?

    Parker seems to be everywhere, doing a workmanlike job. Hello, Mr Cunliffe?

    • mickysavage 9.1
      22 August 2012 at 9:21 am

      Not fair AD.  The office hands out speaking slots and arranges meetings.  Besides Parker is the spokesperson for finance.

      • ad 9.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 9:24 am

        Did the office hand out the last three he did?

        Time to get back in the saddle and ride Mr Cunliffe.

        • QoT 9.1.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 10:55 pm

          One has to wonder if Cunliffe’s playing a bit of a long game. Any silence can easily be read as censorship by head office, and Shearer’s blandness and Mallard’s continuing social media fuckups are probably doing far better things for him than continually reminding the ABCs that he’s still over here being all competent and charismatic (thus making them more ABC through irritated spite).

    • Jim in Tokyo 9.2
      22 August 2012 at 1:41 pm

      According to this link provided by Craig Glen Eden in the “Joyce’s latest list” thread, David Cunliffe is still giving it 100% in the house despite the empty chamber.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10
    22 August 2012 at 9:23 am

    And Australias road to the future is…

    These improvements are changing the transport face of Australia. The poor cousin, freight rail, is now being seen as a serious alternative to the big trucks. The benefits of getting freight from our roads onto rail are obvious. For the everyday motorist, it means safer highways. For the commuter, less congested city streets. And for all of us, cleaner air and a cut to our greenhouse gas output.

    …rail.

    Talking about transport it appears that Phil Twyford has managed to determine NACTs planning model.

    • ad 10.1
      22 August 2012 at 10:11 am

      Lovely speech from Twyford there – great link! Joyce as the “Collossus of Roads” how droll!

  11. kiwi_prometheus 11
    22 August 2012 at 10:17 am

    double post

  12. mickysavage 12
    22 August 2012 at 10:42 am

    Is Trevor Mallard insane? For those who are Facebook friends with him …

    • Bill 12.1
      22 August 2012 at 11:13 am

      That’s. Fucked. Up.

      • TheContrarian 12.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 11:16 am

        Do you think money should be given to those who can but refuse to work?

        • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 11:22 am

          Red herring.

          There are tens of thousands of people who would pick up work now if it was available. Time for the government to give them jobs directly.

          • TheContrarian 12.1.1.1.1
            22 August 2012 at 11:23 am

            Of course, but I was wondering about those who didn’t want to work.

            • weka 12.1.1.1.1.1
              22 August 2012 at 11:34 am

              Yes, they should still receive a benefit. When we have close to zero unemployment rates the issue would be different. But while we have an economy that needs to run a higher employment rate, why not let the people that don’t want to work subsist on the dole, and give the jobs to people that want them?
               
              I am assuming of course we are talking about the small numbers of people on the dole who don’t want paid employment and who do no other work whatsoever. Most people I know on benefits do some kind of work that contributes to society, whether that be cash work or voluntary work or raising kids or looking after other family etc.
               
              While we’re at it, please produce some reliable research that demonstrates that ‘people not wanting to work’ is an actual problem in NZ.

              • TheContrarian …
                22 August 2012 at 11:37 am

                I don’t know if it is an actual problem nor is it encumbered on me to to provide anything. I was asking an opinion on something, not arguing an opinion.

                • fatty …
                  22 August 2012 at 11:46 am

                  actually, the way you asked it implied that you were arguing an opinion

                • North …
                  22 August 2012 at 8:33 pm

                  But Contrarian your question asserts the existence of those who do not want to work.

                  When pressed to establish a factual base for your assertion you’re all – “Oh, just asking….”.

                  Not different from my asking your opinion about Martians eating their children. In a serious exchange the asking of the question necessarily implies belief in the matter asserted.

                  That’s why it is incumbent on you to establish the matter. Unless you were off in some Monty Pythonesque joyride throughout

                • prism …
                  23 August 2012 at 3:08 pm

                  The Contrarian
                  incumbent I think is the word you are after.

            • kiwi_prometheus 12.1.1.1.1.2
              22 August 2012 at 11:35 am

              It’s still a red herring.

              • TheContrarian …
                22 August 2012 at 11:38 am

                No it isn’t – I am curious about something tangential, but related, to the post in question.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  22 August 2012 at 11:51 am

                  Proportionately, 98% of time should be spent on discussing the creation of work for the many tens of thousands who would start a job this afternoon if they were offered one.

                  And 2% of the time on kicking the ass of any slackers out there.

                  It seems the Right Wing prefer to do the opposite though

            • KJT 12.1.1.1.1.3
              22 August 2012 at 7:08 pm

              Well. When a GMI was tried in Canada, the only ones who didn’t want to work were young mums, and students who stayed in education instead.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

              “”She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren’t under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. In addition, Forget finds that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 per cent, with fewer incidences of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse.[1]””

              When benefits were proportionately much higher in NZ and there were plenty of jobs, those choosing not to work were, famously, known by name by the PM.

        • fatty 12.1.1.2
          22 August 2012 at 11:31 am

          “Do you think money should be given to those who can but refuse to work?”

          As CV states above, its a red herring. If it does exist, then it is a logical reaction.

          And, my answer is yes, without a doubt, under our current situation money should be given to those who can but refuse to work…a few reasons include:
          our poverty producing minimum wage, the 90 day right to fire, abuse of ‘flexibility’ by employers, step down period for benefits, temporary employment contracts, the massive amounts of money that greedy people sit on, the cost of living, education is a commodity, the stigma that is used by WINZ every time a benefit is applied for…and lastly, people are right to give up on trying to find dignified employment, because your ignorant, but supposedly ‘ethical’ perspective, has become normalised.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.3
          22 August 2012 at 11:58 am

          Yes because:-
          a) They probably do some work which is beneficial to the community – it just isn’t for an employer
          b) There’s so few of the people who actually don’t do anything that it just isn’t worth spending the time to even find them
          c) I recall an article I read a couple of years ago about a couple that won lotto. They didn’t work, their fortune had increased from the $8m that they had won to $10m. These people and people like them are bigger bludgers than than anyone on the benefit

        • Murray Olsen 12.1.1.4
          23 August 2012 at 1:37 am

          Yes I do. Especially if it’s your money, TC.

      • Jim Nald 12.1.2
        22 August 2012 at 11:17 am

        I have been wondering if Trev is positioning to jump to another party to the right of John Banks.

    • higherstandard 12.2
      22 August 2012 at 11:20 am

      I wouldn’t call him insane, a troughing waste of space …..yes, certainly not insane.

    • Colonial Viper 12.3
      22 August 2012 at 11:24 am

      OMG – totally buys into the Right Wing framing. Misses the point that yes workers are taxed too much…because property and assets are not taxed at all!!!

      • Jim Nald 12.3.1
        22 August 2012 at 11:36 am

        “I’m thinking of asking the Minister of Police for a Taser gun for Trevor.”

        [lprent: removed the spam trap you were hitting (I hope) ]

      • Rhinocrates 12.3.2
        22 August 2012 at 5:51 pm

        A party that puts Trevor Mallard in its front bench instead of a woodchipper is not one I’m voting for. I thought that the man was a useless, narcissistic troughing sack of shit, but now words fail me.

        “Not helpful” Jesus, Cthulhu, Clapton, Arkleseizure…

        Now, Is David Shearer going to say anything other than waffle? (Answer: No, of course not) The problem, sadly, is not just Mallard’s terminal dickishness, or Jones’ hissy fits, Robertson’s meaningless fluff, or Curran’s dribbling idiocy – or even the Paganis’ stale Blairism… it’s Shearer’s utter, utter uselessness. He has no ideas, no ideals, no ability to discipline his party. He’s not a leader and this is not a government in waiting; it’s not even an opposition.

        I look forward to Shearer’s next newsletter – I need a laugh.

        Really though, now, as much as we did in the Depression, we need a real Labour party and instead all we have is some sort of organised rort.

        I propose a reform of our democracy at a fundamental level: we let focus groups replace parliament and government itself. That would be pure and honest – and best of all, of course, it would be efficient.

    • just saying 12.4
      22 August 2012 at 11:25 am

      Wow. Interesting that he has so dramatically broken his cover to argue his position on this occasion, albeit in a snide passive-aggressive way.

      Jesus “taxed to breaking point”!. Underpaid to breaking point – nah ‘parently not.. Is there any reason other than historical accident that Mallard is not a member of the National Party?

      • weka 12.4.1
        22 August 2012 at 11:29 am

        Yeah, better that his true colours are visible.
         
        I did like this comment on FB
         

        Thanks Trevor. You have helped me make my mind up – Labour will not be receiving my vote at the next election. If I wanted a bunch of dog-whistling cretins to represent me I’d vote National.

      • Bill 12.4.2
        22 August 2012 at 1:04 pm

        And Trevor says

        Settle down people. Of course high income people use trusts and a pile of rorts to avoid paying their tax. It really pisses me off that people on not much more than the minimum wage sometimes pay more tax than millionaires.

        Now, did he just miss the substance of his own dog-whistle, or did he just miss the substance of his own dog-whistle?

        And did he forget that on the tax front, those on entitlements get to pay a whopping 80c in the dollar on every dollar earned on anything over (from memory) $80 gross (this is done through reducing the core amount of welfare entitlement paid accordingly) ? And did he also forget that before that $80 limit is reached that some entitlements that are in addition to the core benefit are rebated at 100% on every dollar earned…ie, every one dollar earned = one dollar deducted from the entitlement?

        I’ve no argument that poorer paid workers pay ridiculous amounts of tax (eg. student loan repayments plus [in the unlikely event you can afford it] kiwi saver contributions = somewhere in the region of 30% tax)

        So, how about calling for higher wages Trevor? And how about you stop sniping at people who, if they did pick up some work, would be losing far and away more from their earnings than anyone else.

        Or even better. How about you just leave parliament?

    • tc 12.5
      22 August 2012 at 11:28 am

      That’s a rhetorical question Mickey, a more plausible one is when is he sane ? please explain as some of us don’t facepalm or twatter etc and if I did he wouldn’t be a friend.

    • Carol 12.6
      22 August 2012 at 11:31 am

      And Mallard is still in Labour’s senior ranks, why? And why is Shearer allowing this without censuring him?

      • weka 12.6.1
        22 August 2012 at 11:36 am

        Because Shearer agrees with him.

      • Blue 12.6.2
        22 August 2012 at 12:15 pm

        I thought everyone had gotten the memo that Labour are now the party of me-too beneficiary bashers, desperately trying to match National’s record of kicking the vulnerable at every turn.

    • just saying 12.7
      22 August 2012 at 11:43 am

      Just went back to Mallard’s FB via Mickey’s link, and it appears the page is down.
      Didn’t get the response he expected perhaps?

      • Colonial Viper 12.7.1
        22 August 2012 at 8:57 pm

        Given that Mallard said he expected to be flamed just like Josie Pagani, he couldn’t have been surprised.

    • Kotahi Tāne Huna 12.8
      22 August 2012 at 11:50 am

      Broken link. I wonder if anything else is getting broken along with it…

    • felix 12.9
      22 August 2012 at 12:00 pm

      “For those who are Facebook friends with him …”

      Any chance someone could post a screen grab for those of us who aren’t?

      • Carol 12.9.1
        22 August 2012 at 12:07 pm

        I put up a post earlier in the day that one of my colleagues, whose views I respect, thought wasn’t helpful. The nice thing about Facebook is that i can choose to delete my own posts. I have.

        • felix 12.9.2.1
          22 August 2012 at 12:49 pm

          Jesus, wtf is wrong with him?

          • gobsmacked 12.9.2.1.1
            22 August 2012 at 2:59 pm

            one of my colleagues, whose views I respect, thought wasn’t helpful.

            And Trevor needed to be told it wasn’t helpful? WTF?

            Come on, Paganis and Salmond, you’re the self-styled “experts”, tell us again how Trevor is the smart one and the rest of us just don’t get it. Explain us how the likes of us thickies saying “Please STFU” to Mallard and Shearer are wrong, because we can’t understand the brilliance of this “strategy” (is that what you’re still calling it?).

            FYI: this story was in the news headlines at 2 pm on Newstalk ZB. That’s what you wanted, right? Well done!

            Except (and I’ll have to explain this slowly to you) the headline wasn’t “Labour gets tough, shifts to centre” or whatever fantasy you guys dreamed up. The headline was “Yet another Labour fuck-up” (I paraphrase, but not much).

            Blame the media for shooting at Labour? Well, stop loading the fucking cannon.

            Actually, just stop. NOW.

            • gobsmacked 12.9.2.1.1.1
              22 August 2012 at 3:08 pm

              And Radio Live headlines, 3 pm. Same angle – “Mallard fail, divisions in caucus”.

              You think you’re going to make it all go away by doing more of the same?

              • Jackal …
                22 August 2012 at 7:01 pm

                Perhaps they’re trying to gain attention by doing dumb shit, which unfortunately sometimes works.

                • Kotahi Tāne Huna …
                  23 August 2012 at 8:30 am

                  Perhaps he just thinks it’s cool to be a provocative twat. Think of him as Labour’s Pete George.

          • Molly Polly 12.9.2.1.2
            22 August 2012 at 9:29 pm

            Soooo loved with Jane Clifton that he can’t think straight…

        • Carol 12.9.2.2
          22 August 2012 at 12:58 pm

          And interesting comments on the imperator thread, from Deborah who did that awesome Dom Post article trying to change the narrative on beneficiaries. Good on you Anthony for saying you’ll post some extracts and a link here.

        • bad12 12.9.2.3
          22 August 2012 at 1:00 pm

          Show us these jobs Trevor, put up or shut the f**k up, the EVIDENCE Trevor, why would we bother debating anything with someone who has obviously spent way too long sucking at the teat of the highest form of State entitlement that His brain appears to have turned to mush when what He says lacks the veracity of EVIDENCE,

          The EVIDENCE Trevor??? show us the WINZ figures for the number of people in the past 12 months who have been given the kick off of a benefit because they have REFUSED to accept work that has been offered,any work,

          Your emotive Bulls**t Trevor is sickening, you cannot show us the EVIDENCE of a body of beneficiaries of any size who have REFUSED any work when work has been offered,

          The fact is Trevor, i think with an honestly held belief that you are a Liar if you think that there are any amount of people who when offered a job, ANY JOB, by WINZ or anyone else, have REFUSED to take up that job,

          Tell us all the TRUTH for once in your miserable life Trevor, its simple, there are not enough jobs in the economy to employ all those able and willing to work,

          My view is that your Party should simply put you out to pasture Trevor, as your use by date has long been exceeded and the contents are beginning to smell like s**t…

          • Draco T Bastard 12.9.2.3.1
            22 August 2012 at 1:18 pm

            The big problem with such simple slogans is that they seem reasonable. It’s not until you really think about them and compare them with reality that you get to see the lies and misdirection that are behind them.

        • Morrissey 12.9.2.4
          22 August 2012 at 1:29 pm

          The title of that should actually be: “When You’re an A-Hole.”

    • Vicky32 12.10
      22 August 2012 at 6:55 pm

      That’s ‘currently unavailable’ Micky! I suppose that means he thought better of it, whatever it was….

  13. TheContrarian 13
    22 August 2012 at 11:09 am

    A perfect example of why charter schools need to be regulated, if allowed at all….this shit makes me fucking mad

    Creationism in the classroom. 


  14. higherstandard 14
    22 August 2012 at 11:57 am

    The sky is falling the sky is falling !!!!!!

    [lprent: Don’t be an idiot. Moving to OpenMike as a threadjack. ]

    • tc 14.1
      22 August 2012 at 12:06 pm

      Really, you’d better stay inside and keep up with the meds then.

    • Tracey 14.2
      22 August 2012 at 1:44 pm

      What an intelligent analysis. Your mummy and daddy must be so proud that you can read Chicken Little.

      Perhaps you could read The Emperor’s New Clothes and give us the analysis it contains of the National Party plan for NZ.

      • higherstandard 14.2.1
        22 August 2012 at 1:50 pm

        Perhaps you could have a little cry, suck your thumb and continue to consult your blanky on the particular merits of the various political troughers.

        • thatguynz 14.2.1.1
          22 August 2012 at 3:40 pm

          Good lord HS, you’ve outdone yourself.  I’m guessing you don’t even know what the TPPA is.. 

          • higherstandard 14.2.1.1.1
            22 August 2012 at 4:09 pm

            I know exactly what it is, but when I read alarmist drivel like the comment below regarding the destruction of PHARMAC I’m given to flights of ridiculing such comments.

            • framu 14.2.1.1.1.1
              22 August 2012 at 4:57 pm

              So those US senators who earlier put out statements saying that pharmac was a problem was just for shits and giggles?

              • blue leopard …
                22 August 2012 at 5:20 pm

                @higherstandard

                Your comments were posted earlier than any post referring to Pharmac

            • blue leopard 14.2.1.1.1.2
              22 August 2012 at 5:16 pm

              @ higherstandard

              Will you be laughing when your taxes are being spent on legal disputes created by transnational companies arguing against policies arrived at democratically?

              “TPP would greatly increase the number of investor-state attacks on public interest policies and would expose governments to massive new financial liabilities.”

              “The rules that panelists [ICSID] will adjudicate would supersede national laws. Article 12.7 of the TPP, for instance, provides a long list of prohibitions against government actions; under it, laws imposing capital controls (even to ameliorate a crisis), rules governing domestic content of products or any protections of any domestic industry would be illegal…”

              http://systemicdisorder.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/trans-pacific-partnership-trade-pact-more-draconian-than-nafta/

              • Colonial Viper …
                22 August 2012 at 8:52 pm

                When it comes to it, you’d simply break away from the Agreement and join up with other countries who were also bearing the brunt of corporate imperialism.

                • blue leopard …
                  22 August 2012 at 9:39 pm

                  Well and good CV, however what if such countries are also bearing the brunt of corporate imperialism in their mainstream media too, successfully keeping people sleepy and uninformed?

                  We are all becoming like the toad that was put in the cool water and slowly heated up. We put up with more and more of this b**shit. Our tolerance is remarkable and for those who have had it bought to their attention its very horrible to watch.

            • thatguynz 14.2.1.1.1.3
              22 August 2012 at 7:26 pm

              In that case clearly you DON’T know exactly what it is…

      • fnjckg 14.2.2
        22 August 2012 at 4:45 pm

        It is a human number…..

    • higherstandard 14.3
      22 August 2012 at 6:30 pm

      Suck my balls Lynn.

      [lprent: Not my style. I’m more likely to use some kind of pincer. 😈 See like this horse…

      I did rather like the way that the system decided to moderate you. Your other comment had the wrong e-mail address (I corrected it for you), and this one had a phrase that akismet found offensive. Good picking by the machine. ]

  15. Draco T Bastard 15
    22 August 2012 at 1:13 pm

    And Australians have a new name for NZers – refugees.

    AUSTRALIA is facing a flood of economic refugees. But the big numbers aren’t from the north, they are from the across the Tasman where Statistics New Zealand yesterday announced the biggest exodus to Australia on record.

    • Rosie 15.1
      22 August 2012 at 2:34 pm

      Woooooooooo! 53,900 economic refugee’s, fleeing NZ, in the year to July. This does equate roughly to the figure often cited of “1000 NZers leaving for Australia every week”, but even more. Economic refugee is a completely apt term.

      Aussies must think we are idiots voting twice for a government that drives its own citizens away in droves.

  16. Tracey 16
    22 August 2012 at 1:52 pm

    I just want to comment on the Julian Assange and Equador thing.

    I don’t know what Assange did or did not do in Sweden with those girls. I don’t know if the USA is behind these charges to get him to the USA.

    I understand wikileaks is about speaking truth to power.

    My question is how principled is Mr Assange seeking refuge from the President of Equador IF he runs a regime averse to freedom of speech, and imprisons people for speaking truth to power? Self interest rules in the end?

    Nelson Mandela went to prison for 25 years, was able to make a stand, retain his principles and came out to an atmosphere which could have resulted in massive bloodshed had he given the word. he didn’t. He chose peace and dignity. He spoke truth to power in many ways.

    Julian Assange…

    The swedish have refused to interview Assange in the Equador Embassy. I think they should.

    • Kiki 16.1
      22 August 2012 at 2:30 pm

      Tracey,

      Why are you repeating the lies of Mr Assange’s pursuers?

      Have you thought of doing some research before coming online with your ill informed opinions?

      • OneTrack 16.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 10:43 pm

        Yes Tracy. By edict, Julian can do no wrong and any suggestion to the opposite can only be a dastardly plot by George Bush and Dick Cheney. Those two women are actually male CIA operatives from the Treadstone project, disguised as women in order to trap our dear hero. But Julian has come up with a stunning plan , elegant in its simplicity.

    • Urban Rascal 16.2
      22 August 2012 at 3:27 pm

      I thought the same thing but the comment thread from 11 on this page (http://thestandard.org.nz/nz-vs-ecuador/) cleared things up for me on Monday.
      Bill convinced me fairly quickly with his links and knowledge, I could stand corrected though.

      • McFlock 16.2.1
        22 August 2012 at 4:17 pm

        I wouldn’t say I was thoroughly convinced about Ecuador, but I did learn a fair amount. 

        • Urban Rascal 16.2.1.1
          23 August 2012 at 1:22 pm

          absolutely agree. But it was one of the best back and forth threads i’ve seen in a week or two.

  17. captain hook 17
    22 August 2012 at 2:02 pm

    I just want to comment on the john banks thing.
    he asserts that the boorockacsee is being overrun with rationalists who dont beleive in religion abut the john banks knows that God made the world in 7 days 4,300 years ago.
    he also designed his hardly davison and the medicine that keeps horrible old men alive.

  18. William Joyce 18
    22 August 2012 at 3:25 pm

    The supremacy of old white guys. Especially if you are a convicted “white collar” criminal – link

  19. chris73 19
    22 August 2012 at 5:11 pm

    I’ve commented on this (so) many times before but I still wonder why it is that Labour seem so adept at shooting themselves in the foot..

    Labour could make some traction against National but instead they open their mouths and try to cram as much of their feet in as they can.

    I mean its nearly as bad as the run up to the last election…

    Serious question: Do Labour want to be in power?

    • gobsmacked 19.1
      22 August 2012 at 5:22 pm

      Do Labour want to be in power?

      Some Labour MPs know this is their last term, so they won’t be in power anyway.

      Some other Labour MPs believe time is on their side, and that losing the next election will not affect them (as long as they keep their seats).

      Somewhere in the middle there may be some other MPs who genuinely do want to win the next election, but for whatever reason, they seem unable to rein in the idiot(s).

      If by “Labour” you mean the party membership, outside the cosseted caucus, then the answer is “Yes”. But the MPs don’t seem to care what they think.

      • chris73 19.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 5:33 pm

        Well its a serious question because last election if (IM always HO) the Labour MPs had shut their gobs then Goff would have won.

        Now it seems as if others don’t want Shearer to win. I mean that MP talking about the gay marriage and Trev going off the deep end (again)

        If I was a Labour supporter I’d be looking at the greens (at least they have public unity)

    • Descendant Of Smith 19.2
      22 August 2012 at 5:25 pm

      Yes but not as a left party

    • KJT 19.3
      22 August 2012 at 7:21 pm

      Duck feet?

  20. Carol 20
    22 August 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Just watching my recording of today’s General Debate.

    That politician got amnesia again

    From Sue Moroney, delivering some news to John Banks following his contribution to today’s general debate: Banksie apparently predicted that Shearer would be leader of the opposition in the 50th Parliament, and that he (Banks) would be back as an MP in the 50th parliament.

    News for Banks – THIS IS THE 50TH PARLIAMENT!

    • William Joyce 20.1
      22 August 2012 at 5:41 pm

      The man is not mentally stable.

      • Carol 20.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 6:03 pm

        I just watched Banks’ speech (myfreeview recorded it on the end of question time, and started recording the debate in the middle of the general debate).

        OMG. He kept referring to the current parliament and the current leader of the opposition in THIS 40th parliament… I checked:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_New_Zealand#History

        Oh dear, John. Still living in 1981. Then he talked about being back for the 50th parliament.

        And as for his total misrepresentation of Labour’s position on education…. fail. You’re making it all up, John.

      • Anne 20.1.2
        22 August 2012 at 8:28 pm

        The man is not mentally stable.

        He’s just plain dumb. IQ about 80 I should think. The rest is animal cunning.

        • felix 20.1.2.1
          22 August 2012 at 8:36 pm

          Yep.

          As for not being stable, I’d say he’s extremely stable. He’s literally always like this.

          • Colonial Viper 20.1.2.1.1
            22 August 2012 at 8:38 pm

            And Auckland voted him in????? Not long ago as Mayor and then as MP?????

            • Anne 20.1.2.1.1.1
              22 August 2012 at 8:49 pm

              Doesn’t say much for the IQ of your average Jafa.

            • felix 20.1.2.1.1.2
              22 August 2012 at 8:49 pm

              Twice as Mayor. After booting him out in ’04 they elect him back in ’07 like it never. fucking. happened.

              • mickysavage …
                22 August 2012 at 8:59 pm

                Honest we tried our best.  Although in my personal defence I voted for Bob Harvey as the westie mayor that year!

              • Herodotus …
                22 August 2012 at 8:59 pm

                Most Jafas only had one opportunity to vote for Banks, and Len won. I think you could then ascertain that Jafaland became more astute thanks to the consolidation of greater Auckland. So Anne your impression may be misguided !!!!!

                • mickysavage …
                  22 August 2012 at 9:01 pm

                  Yep.  The south and the west voted overwhelmingly Brown.  He had a meeting last night where St Heliers and Mission Bay were complaining about rates increases.  He was apologetic.  He should stick to his guns and tell them to complain to the Government who set super city up.

                  Besides 90+% of this particular area voted for Banks.  Why should Len care? 

                  • Herodotus …
                    22 August 2012 at 9:16 pm

                    Yes Len has become the sacrificial goat regarding rates.
                    The real issue to me is the every increasing debt. This implies to me that to keep rates down the councils utilized debt as a major source to fund councils wishes.(and some smoke and mirrors accounting to CCO’s) Not a very sustainable policy. Unfortunately the next mayor is for an even more stressful time. For Len’s sake coming 2nd at the next election could be a godsend for his family, friends and personally.
                    Funny how all attention is towards the mayor there are many councillors also accountable.

                • Anne …
                  22 August 2012 at 10:10 pm

                  Most Jafas only had one opportunity to vote for Banks, and Len won.

                  Dammit you’re right.

                  • OneTrack …
                    22 August 2012 at 10:37 pm

                    And now the rates demands are coming in and there are all these people with a surprised look on their face. D’oh.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      22 August 2012 at 11:28 pm

                      I suspect that most people who voted for Len knew that the rates were going up. It was, after all, fairly obvious that they would due to Rodney Hides and National’s implementation of the SuperShitty.

  22. feijoa 22
    22 August 2012 at 6:06 pm

    I read a book some years ago -one of those organisational improvements books, darned if I can remember what it was called…
    basically it said when difficult people start making life unpleasant in an organisation, the traditional approach was to get rid of them , and everything would be peaceful again.
    Well, this guy said we should listen to these difficult, annoying people, because they may hold the answer for the improvement of the organisation, will challenge it and come up with different outside the box ideas, ie not yes-men /women
    Maybe it’s time Labour realised Cunliffe may not be the problem, he may actually be the solution, and this may be a little uncomfortable for them

  23. belladonna 23
    22 August 2012 at 6:09 pm

    And nary a stumble or bather to be heard. Great speech.

  24. Logie97 24
    22 August 2012 at 6:10 pm

    General comment on quality of media journalism? (sorry sensationalism)

    I listened to a report on RNZ this evening of a tragic motoring accident.
    “One witness said (recording of witness voice “I heard a loud bang and rushed outside. The vehicle was turning left into a church …”)”

    Why do we get these sorts of soundbites fed to us as sources of “eyewitness” accounts on so many bulletins these days.

    • Vicky32 24.1
      22 August 2012 at 7:12 pm

      Why do we get these sorts of soundbites fed to us as sources of “eyewitness” accounts on so many bulletins these days.

      My son and I call it the ‘nosy neighbour’ phenomenon… It’s like the person who when a meth lab is discovered, or someone is arrested, says “I always thought there was something off about them”. (You don’t hear people say “she was such a nice, quiet woman” any more, fortunately..

  25. Draco T Bastard 25
    22 August 2012 at 8:17 pm

    And it now appears that we’re going to have to stop calling lying, thieving scum something other than rats as it’s now been proven that they’ve got more empathy and compassion than your average right wing politician.

    The free rat, occasionally hearing distress calls from its compatriot, learned to open the cage and did so with greater efficiency over time. It would release the other animal even if there wasn’t the payoff of a reunion with it. Astonishingly, if given access to a small hoard of chocolate chips, the free rat would usually save at least one treat for the captive — which is a lot to expect of a rat.

    The researchers came to the unavoidable conclusion that what they were seeing was empathy — and apparently selfless behavior driven by that mental state.

    • prism 25.1
      23 August 2012 at 3:54 pm

      DTB
      I thought the rat info was timely. When wouldn’t it be though? That’s amazing but humans don’t need to be shown up in this sort of way. By rats! What next? Spiders make good mothers, carry their babies on their back etc. Really we don’t live up to our brain capacity.

  26. Colin16 26
    22 August 2012 at 8:39 pm

    poor old sad12. Twevor upset you girlie?

    • deuto 26.1
      22 August 2012 at 9:11 pm

      Evening Colin – having searched you on this site, I note that this only your second visit. Your first was on August 10. On both occasions, you targetted Bad12 – are you a stalker and is your age 16?

      [lprent: By the same logic then that begs the question – is bad 12? In which case I’d have to hope that censorship act doesn’t apply here bearing in mind HS’s comment to me and my response. ]

      • bad12 26.1.1
        22 August 2012 at 10:03 pm

        Damn i interrupted the importance of a scrabble game to have my rawene upset by a pair of horse’s balls,

        Now that could be a double intendre, but, honestly it aint people, how the hell tho did you know what i do for a day job ,

        If colon16 had a ounce of intellect in it’s little snippet of spittle i could probably just gather the strength to slide my hand up it’s hole and administer a cholecystectomy, that would teach em to have the gall to address me such…

  27. Adele 27
    22 August 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Kioara Colin

    I think Trevor has upset a lot of sensible left-leaning people. Personally, I think he must be drunk when posting some of the stuff he posts online. Or is he suffering from dementia such that he now thinks he’s Paula Bennett.

    This Labour Party needs reaming.of the artherosclerotic plaque that is restricting blood-flow to good leadership. Trevor is a fatty and calcified deposit on the arteries to the left.

  28. millsy 28
    22 August 2012 at 10:10 pm

    With the government’s asset sales plan in free fall, its time for John Key to change his approach. Be bold, and just for once place yourself in the history books, and embrace state capitalism.

    Turn the Future Investment Fund into a fully fledged sovereign wealth fund, and transfer ownership of our SOE’s to it — like Singapore’s Temasek Holdings, give it full range to invest in anything and everything, turn it into a balwark of NZ and public ownership, and a companion piece to the NZ Super Fund, and a huge cash cow to fund schools, hospitals, broadband, rail, roads…

    If its good enough for Dubai, Kuwait, Norway and Singapore, its good enough for us.

    And David Shearer, promise to do that when winning the 2014 election.

    Imagine if Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble did it back in ’86, instead of flogging them off to Gordon Gekko-types. They would truly be heroes.

    • bad12 28.1
      22 August 2012 at 10:37 pm

      Way too sensible for the likes of Slippery, and, when Dave aint doing His bit to alleviate poverty via a spot of mango-skinned redistribution He’s probably still coming to grips with that overly trite piece of neo-Liberal bulls**t, ”the Government has no business in business”,

      Mostly the rest of us can see that as an investment vehicle our Government has the greatest ability to be proactive within the New Zealand economy just as the many countries you have highlighted are,

      Add to that list of course China where the State has no problem ‘owning’ the smallest of factory’s producing the easiest of goods to manufacture and we can see that Government does have a role in business on all levels from investment to ownership,

      Unfortunately little old us seem still to be stuck in the dark ages…

    • Draco T Bastard 28.2
      22 August 2012 at 11:31 pm

      That sounds like a really stupid idea. Better to just turn the SoEs back into what they were and always should have been – state services run to benefit NZ and not to make a profit.

  29. xtasy 29
    23 August 2012 at 12:22 am

    It may sound a bit dumb to some, but this seems to be the most popular world wide song at present. It even hits tunes in European charts, and it is is highly popular. Bieber move off your top arrogant arse, this is much, much better, leaving you in the shadow.

    Suck it up or hate it, your choice, it is interesting. In Brazil it is based on some tunes from certain regions, and it is also rural. It is “popular”.

    Enjoy!

  30. xtasy 30
    23 August 2012 at 12:36 am

    Who gets more than 4 million hits on You Tube, even large hits in Germany and so, a bit bizarre, maybe sign of “emerging markets”?

    To me just a bit of fine tuned entertainment of better class, still like “el pueblo unido”!

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