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Open mike 22/09/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 22nd, 2011 - 123 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

123 comments on “Open mike 22/09/2011 ”

  1. tc 1

    Last nights Tv3 news lead story….Zara Phillips in a nothing piece about a nothing story, unless you consider english professional sports folk getting on the turps news.
    Followed by Pyke river……the inquest into 29 deaths having some ‘shocking new evidence’ ranking below a puff piece with no content about some royal married to a sportsman.
    Also their rocked the nation show earlier having sideshow rabbeting on about a sporting moment which occurred prior to the 81 bok tour, yet not having him talk about the tour which was ranked 3rd ………that licensing deal Joyce gifted media works sure is the best PR our money can buy.

    • 1984 arrives 27 years later.  Hopefully one day people will decide to take the red pill and realise what is happening.  Right now far too many are taking the blue pill.  How spooky is it that the Matrix got the colors right …

      • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

        Damn dude, I was thinking exactly the same thing yesterday…

      • Brett Dale 1.1.2

        The Matrix was way overrated, Inception was way better.

        Red pill. blue pill, if only they gave a pill that could of given me my two hours back.

        • freedom 1.1.2.1

          Matrix had issues, certainly, but Inception suffered with that small detail of explaining exactly where they were every thirty seconds so Americans could follow the story. :]

          • tc 1.1.2.1.1

            Yeah but visually just park the brain and enjoy…..plots have far too many flaws these days to appease the funding committee machine.

  2. Tony P 2

    Not of any political or otherwise significance but the one band I hadn’t seen but still wanted to are no more. REM call it a day.
    http://www.remhq.com/news_story.php?id=1446

  3. O dear, I’ve done it all wrong. For all of you suffering from cognitive dissonance I apologise unreservedly and will from now on follow the advise of all these Psychologists and Psyciatrists and respond to your fearful denial with open ended questions and compassionate carefullness when helping you towards your new and unescapable reality so you may heal from your traumas with regards to the events of 911.

    Psychologists: Questioning 9/11 Is the Sane Thing To Do

    • The Voice of Reason 3.1

      Well, you’re halfway there. Getting in the men in white coats is definitely a good idea for you denialists, but I’d suggest using ones that aren’t equally mad for the best results.

      • travellerev 3.1.1

        ROFL, here’s a new MSM theory for ya!!! Molton aluminium reacted with the water from the sprinklers and caused the collapse of both towers! Wahahaha!!!!
        What do you think about that VOR. Does it have merit?

        • The Voice of Reason 3.1.1.1

          Hmmmm, it’s possible that such explosions happened, Ev, but I think that would be secondary at best. I’ve no doubt that molten metal of any kind coming into contact with water would react ‘explosively’, but the theory seems a bit fanciful to me. As do most alternatives to the truth, actually.

        • freedom 3.1.1.2

          The MSN have finally decided to state that explosions were heard. This is long overdue.
          – of course they are now having to run around to find a reason for them.
          Reality will continue to consume the fantasy until Truth stands taller than the Towers ever did.

          • The Voice of Reason 3.1.1.2.1

            Er, that’s MSN, not MSM, freedom. And I don’t think there’s ever been a denial of explosions. Jetliners hitting large structures are not quiet events and the subsequent collapse of the buildings after being hit is also going to involve lots of noise.
             
            Can’t wait for the results of the Toronto hearings, btw. Will it be long before the names of the hundreds of the conspirators is released to an eager public and the arrests start?

            • freedom 3.1.1.2.1.1

              One last time TVOR, the Hearings are a presentation of evidence to be used in the drive for a new and independant Investigation. They are not and can not supply you with a list of conspirators. The constant bleating of this idea from you is an embarrassment to your often cogent (if badly flawed) arguments. The T H Report will be a common ground document that contains the best and most relevant information that was collected over the last ten years. I sincerely believe that if you ever decide to spend an hour of time in objective review, you would realise the disparity between the plethora of scientifically tested evidence and the Official Story.

              As far as the release date, well i for one would like the Honorary President of the Italian Supreme Court and his collegues who are compiling the Report to take all due care and attention that is warranted by such an effort. This may not fit in with your blipvert attention span of mass consumerism but sadly the reality of the extensive work ahead demands accuracy, care and diligence in the presentation of data that is so explosive.

              • Zorr

                ffs when will people realise that honorary titles such as “Professor Emeritus” (it usually just means they are old, retired and out of touch with recent developments in their field) are mostly worthless. They are just there to lend a degree of authenticity to the hearings that would be lacking if it was just James Gourley.

                • freedom

                  Zorr, what gives the Hearings credibility is the format followed, the evidence presented and the science displayed. Your bias against any individual is just that, bias. It has little to no bearing on data being presented. I also have issues with certain people who are party to the organisations involved but i have confidence that the data will dissuade the ego and this is not and never will be about money, except the badly needed medical funds for the first repsponders. These are men and women who are dying in their hundreds, and there are also the thousands of families who refused to sign off on the Official Story and received no monies from the Government. Their families were left destitute when their loved ones were murdered by persons unknown at this time. They are the focus. Not your unfounded suspicions of corruption and people lining their own pockets.

                  • Vicky32

                    Freedom, I wonder when you and Ev are going to realise that VoUR is never going to listen to what you and she say? I used to weigh in on your side, but then after she in particular, nastily put me in my place, I am not involved any more. Have fun, but for goodness’ sake change the bloody record! I still am a ‘Truther’, and always wil be, but I am not arguing the toss here – as I am not commenting on anything else that might cause me to be abused again. Maybe one day you’ll learn that overweening self-love and just plain nastiness gets you nowhere especially in terms of persuading people of the rightness of your cause.
                    Oh and I just want to add that I am sceptical about your story about being a prodigy who refused communion at 6 years old – no real church allows 6 year olds to take communion! It sounds like a Dawkins story…

            • Zorr 3.1.1.2.1.2

              Those Toronto hearings are a farce anyway. The guy bankrolling the entire deal is an attorney and the person compiling and presenting the evidence at the end of the day isn’t an impartial body but… get this… the same stupid attorney.

              This isn’t the first time something like this will have been done by a lawyer in order to generate income/large public cases. The exact same thing happened with the vaccination autism link – Andrew Wakefield (the doctor) was collaborating with a lawyer to create the evidence in order to be able to prosecute the vaccine companies and they would both get a cut of the ensuing income.

              There is no reason to even pay any attention to the Toronto hearings until, at the least, an impartial board is appointed to review and compile the evidence otherwise it is just a gerrymandered show for the benefit of this lawyer.

              • Zorr

                Hear are the specifics from the information page:

                “Who is the Sponsor?

                The lead sponsor of these Hearings is the International Center for 9/11 Studies. Established by U.S. attorney James Gourley”

                “the final report will be edited by the American attorney James Gourley”

                • freedom

                  “..James Gourley, …[International Center for 9/11 Studies] is currently known best for its success in gaining the release of approximately four terabytes of video evidence held (and kept from the public) by the National Institute of Standards and Technology.”

                  yeah he is so selfish and focused on his wallet he spent tens of thousands of dollars to battle for the release of information the Government wanted kept secret

                  Do you actually have any idea how many high-level people are beginning to back away from the Offiicial Story. Military leaders, Businessmen, Politicians,. There are members of the Official Commission who have stated the Official Story is not accurate. If they decided to publicly stand on the side of Truth i suspect you diss them also as they were once part of the problem. People are complex entities, and many have the capacity to learn, adapt and some even grow to realise they were wrong and try to make things right. James Gourley, has nothing to gain financially as you disparagingly suggest. I guess the authors of the books that drive the funding of many Truth events are also to be ignored based on your reasoning.

              • freedom

                p.s. “The International Center for 9/11 Studies is a not-for-profit organization ”

                NOT FOR PROFIT

                do you understand these simple words ? or is the concept foreign to your dogma

                • Lanthanide

                  You know that “not for profit” companies still actually pay their employees salaries, right?

                  You can be a “not for profit” company while paying your director a $1,000,000 salary. In fact being “not for profit” encourages unscrupulous companies to do do such things.

                  Similar to the “Emeritus Professor” note above, being “not for profit” is simply a distraction that doesn’t necessarily mean what it implies.

                  • freedom

                    Gee can they? wow thanks for the newsflash. Sarcasm aside, with no proof or valid reasoning you want to tar an organisation with the mercenary ideals of your own suspicions. That is not an attractive quality. Guess what, most Aid agencies throughout the Globe are rife with corrupt accounting practises yet they still seem to be on every street corner and Tv screen without a whisper of your discontent.

                    Many of the major charities operating today declare adminstrative costs that have been as high as 75% of donated funds. When i see your vitriol expressed at the gravey train of relief organisations that swim in money, i will happily make enquiries about unfounded accusations against the shoestring budgets of Truth Organisations.

                    State your concerns, supply the evidence or give them the benfit of the doubt that this organisation is operating in a NFP manner, exactly how it says it does.

                    • Lanthanide

                      Actually freedom, it is you saying the words “not for profit” magically mean that there is no corruption involved, everything is above board and we should not be suspicious of this guys motive at all. I’m merely pointing out that the words “not for profit” don’t mean any of that and you’ve just agreed with me.

                      See, it goes like this:
                      Zorr:
                      Those Toronto hearings are a farce anyway. The guy bankrolling the entire deal is an attorney and the person compiling and presenting the evidence at the end of the day isn’t an impartial body but… get this… the same stupid attorney.

                      freedom:
                      p.s. “The International Center for 9/11 Studies is a not-for-profit organization ”
                      NOT FOR PROFIT
                      do you understand these simple words ? or is the concept foreign to your dogma

            • freedom 3.1.1.2.1.3

              TVOR,
              MSN in July 2011 received 400,000,000 unique visitors, not exactly a barren wasteland of news
              http://www.google.com/adplanner/static/top1000/

            • travellerev 3.1.1.2.1.4

              Here you go a video of 18 seconds. Explosions at the start of the collapse of building 7.

              Here is dr Shyam Sunder the head of the WTC7 investigation by NIST giving a radio interview about the pending report. Here is the official presentation of NIST of the WTC7 report
              Here is NIST’s computer model of the collapse and the building actually collapsing.

              ROFL!!! If you believe that Dr Shyan Sunder of NIST, when he says we took the most probably hypothesis and ignored all other info because it did not fit our hypothesis, is performing science you are a sad puppy!

              • McFlock

                Nice video. No source of origin or indication of what caused the bang, though – fracturing columns, collapsing walls, TNT?
                  
                It would, however, be able to be compared with the known frequency of explosions caused by nanothermite (not all explosives sound the same – some pop, others wooomph, others crack, etc). Might be useful.
                  
                Personally it sounded to me like internal structural failures, but that’s just a gut instinct.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Gun shot acoustic recording systems which keep track city wide will have recorded that ‘explosion’.

                  Notice how the firemen ducked when the sudden sound came through. That’s a reaction to ordnance going off, not a wall etc tumbling down.

                  Where are those acoustic records now.

                  • McFlock

                    Firefighters only duck if explosives detonate, but not to other sudden sounds?  Even if you were right in general, that was by then what one might regard as “a very bad day”.

                  • freedom

                    I have a certified copy of 9/11 Raw which is a real time untouched unedited A/V recording of the time period immediately prior to the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, and the subsequent chaos.
                    http://www.911raw.com/ ( clean link kept breaking up)

                    It was filmed by Richard A Siegel from a vantage point in Hoboken. The DVD has been rigorously analyzed and declared as an authentic recording of the events that occured as viewed from the Hoboken harbour where the filming took place.

                    On this DVD are numerous auditory anomolies that can only be ascribed to the existence of explosive events.

                    All attempts to present the data to the Official 9/11 Commission were refused.

                  • The Voice of Reason

                    Dunno about the gun shot records, CV and I wouldn’t be entirely sure that the area around the WTC complex has recordings anyway as I wouldn’t have thought it was a high gun crime area. Plus the overall level of noise with the collapse of the buildings would probably render them ineffective.
                     
                    However, there were also seismic recordings on the day, from a station on the outskirts of the city, that show the collapse in reasonable detail. No sign of thermite style explosions, of course, because that didn’t happen, but the usual pattern of noise and vibration consistent with a large building falling down.

                    • freedom

                      and the numerous other seismic recording devices that were confiscated by the FBI and other agencies immediately after the attack and never presented as evidence or returned to their original operators? Where are their records ? Why were they removed?

                      Kind of like the 89 surveillance cameras around the Pentagon and local businesses that had all footage removed and subsequently ‘lost’ or ‘damaged’ during the 9/11 investigation

                    • freedom

                      Open mike 22/09/2011


                      reply to your popular mechanics comedy

                      TVOR
                      If you ever bother to watch the video of that particular moment in the collapse you will see the twenty odd story section of the tower begins to follow the path of least resistance as expected, then it does a bizarre thing, it does not continue to arc out according to the laws of physics and collapse enmasse into the street eighty floors below, no, instead it turns into dust and debris. Remember this section, the one YOU have pointed out, is above the impact zone of the Aircraft and has no forces working upon it except for gravity and newtonian physics.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Those gun shot mics can pick up firearms activity anywhere from 2km – 4km away. They dont need to be on top of a site of interest.

                      but the usual pattern of noise and vibration consistent with a large building falling down.

                      Sorry mate you can only say that if that station can routinely pick up controlled demolition activity of old buildings a similar distance away.

                • That was a clip from a documentary made by an Italian main stream media network (They have a lot of experience with state crimes against democracy after all) Here is the six minute version.

                  It is way at the end and you can see the interaction the two man have with the firefighters.
                  Note that never in the history of steel framed buildings there had been a collapse in free fall speed as result of office fires(Not before nor after 911) and that Jovenko the Dutch demolition expert who was interviewed by a Dutch mainstream media sender (We to have our experiences with governments and their inherent unreliability) died recently in a car crash.

                  • The Voice of Reason

                    This wasn’t an office fire. It took two fuel laden aircraft hitting the buildings at several hundred kph to make them collapse. Or, maybe 2 holograms, several hundred tons of thermite, an army of thousands and vast conspiracy of silence. 
                     
                    By the way, what happened to all the people that boarded the holograms/and or disguised missiles in Boston? I’ve been meaning to ask for ages if we know what happened to them. I presume they were executed in the departure lounge and the bodies buried out the back of Logan Airport and the phone calls from the planes, sorry, hologram/missile were faked as well.
                     
                    What’s the go there?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What’s the go there?

                      Nothing pleasant, I imagine. BTW its not a question of whether or not the planes struck the two towers (the Pentagon is another issue). But whether or not assymetrical strikes, assymetrical structural damage and assymetrical fires, could have caused not just one, but both towers to fall perfectly vertically and symmetrically, directly down on to their own streetside footprints.

                      In the other scenario, an army of thousands? I'd say 50-100 people all up, tops would have been ample.

                      Hundreds of tons of thermite? No, less than 10 tonnes might have done the trick. Moved in over 12 months, thats 30kg shifted per day. Could do it in a back pack.

                    • Actually NIST specified that the damage to building 7 wasn’t severe enough to cause the collapse and that office fires had caused the almost free fall collapse of building 7. We are talking about building 7 here not the twin towers.

                      You are getting quit emotional over this aren’t you? I mean your going of on all kinds of strange tangents such as holograms and that. I have never denied planes flew in the buildings or that real people died when the buildings came down.

                    • By the way the Manhattan project (Nuclear bombs and that) involved about a 125.000 individuals and was kept secret for about 12 years. (Even though Russian spies managed to penetrate the wall of secrecy. The American population most assuredly was kept in the dark.

                    • The Voice of Reason

                      ” … to fall perfectly vertically, directly down on to their own streetside footprints”
                       
                      What a weird statement! While the buildings obviously fell straight down, more or less, pancaking on themselves as the laws of physics demand, tons of debris was flung for considerable distances, including the portion that detached and struck WTC7. You know that they’re not trees, eh? Buildings don’t fall sideways like a pinus radiata being logged, but WTC’s 1 and 2 definitely did not impact just in their own footprints. 
                       
                      There’s a great photo showing the upper portion of one them twisting away from the centre line here. The article’s good reading too and also contains a bit about the seismic readings that give the lie to the thermite explosions theory.
                       
                       

                      Edit: Ev, the majority of the Manhattan project workers were not privy to the ultimate goal, that is true. Only a handful knew. But your 9/11 theory requires all of the conspirators to know and still keep silent. I’m not emotional about this at all, but it’s fair to say I don’t believe in pissing on the dead.

                    • While the buildings obviously fell straight down, more or less, pancaking on themselves as the laws of physics demand, tons of debris was flung for considerable distances, including the portion that detached and struck WTC7. You know that they’re not trees, eh? Buildings don’t fall sideways like a pinus radiata being logged, but WTC’s 1 and 2 definitely did not impact just in their own footprints. 

                      There’s a great photo showing the upper portion of one them twisting away from the centre line here. The article’s good reading too and also contains a bit about the seismic readings that give the lie to the thermite explosions theory.

                      And for you in the real world here is a presentation of Greame McQueen about the collapse of the twin towers.
                      By the way VOR, even NIST deserted the pancake theory a long time ago and no the laws of physics do not demand pancaking but do require the path of least resistance which means that that upper portion twisting away should have fallen of the top not toward it but that is neither here nor there because it pulverized in mid air as visible in this 2 minute video. Also very interesting is the strange shaking of the camera just before the collapse.

                    • freedom

                      Open mike 22/09/2011


                      “But your 9/11 theory requires all of the conspirators to know and still keep silent”

                      complete horse manure and you know it. The whole event could be done with a couple of dozen well placed people of authority and means. Who benefits? the Afghanistan nation surely didn’t. Modern high energy explosives can be painted on and any crew can be told it is a new form of fireproofing paint and they would have no reason to think otherwise. The maintenace and structural areas for WTC can be accessed and walked through without the public/tenants knowing. There are numerous anomolies of the weeks preceeding the event. These include unprecedented power-downs of both towers, weeks of unspecified upgrading of communications data including a vast new wireless network and in the weekend prior to the event, the removal of Bomb sniffing dogs who had been on duty every day since 1993. WTC7 had also undergone major structural work in the three years prior.

                      The very real planes can be and most likely were remote controlled. This has beeen possible for a half century. The fate of the actual aircraft and the passengers are unknown but there is a lot of information pertaining to landings at a Govt controlled landing strip and disembarkation of congruous numbers of people has been reported. The Pentagon story was so thoroughly obliterated during the Toronto hearings i won’t even bother to detail how.

                      The list goes on and on but the idea that thousands of people are needed to be aware of it, in order to carry it out, ignores the inherent and quite brilliant simplicity of the plan. Let us wait for some common ground shall we. Let us all await the Toronto Hearings and the actual data, the actual facts as science has declared them to be. Let us see if the weight of factual evidence will finally destroy the spineless illusions dictated by the Official 911 Commission.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      tons of debris was explosively flung for considerable distances sometimes at hundreds of metres per second, including the portion that detached and struck WTC7.

                      Fixed that up for you.

                      Glad you brought up the point about jets of debris visible in the videos, shooting out sideways at high speed.

                • freedom

                  “Personally it sounded to me like internal structural failures, but that’s just a gut instinct.”
                  wow, Mcflock, heard many steel framed sky scrapers suffer structural failure have you?
                  when and where?

                  your comment reminds me of the ‘guy on the street’ they kept interviewing on the day who said ” ….mostly due to structural failure because the fire was too intense..’

                  in a world where
                  NO STEEL FRAMED BUILDING HAD EVER COLLAPSED DUE TO FIRE
                  and people were panicked and in shock, they found the one guy amongst the chaos who had worked out the cause and could plainly and repeatedly state it for the cameras.

                  i must have seen this guy interviewed on camera a dozen times on 9/11 2001

                  (This man has been identified as Mark Walsh .
                  He worked as a freelance cameraman for Fox News in 2001, .)
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTrw9dh3xOU

                  • McFlock

                    True enough that I don’t have much of a comparison set, although I’ve heard one or two loud bangs in my time.
                     
                    But I noticed that the firefighters continued their personal calls without utterances like “omg, that sounded like artillery!” or “golly, I’ve never heard something like that before, what could it be?” The closest they got were references to “blow up” or “exploding”. Pretty understandable given the width of the debris field.

                    • Pretty understandable given the width of the debris field.

                      The debris field of WTC7 did not exceed its footprint when intact. It came straight down in its own footprint in near free fall speed. If no explosives were used it broke all laws of physics.

                    • McFlock
                      I take it that your lack of reaction to the entire clip means that it fell outside your 30 second rule?

                    • freedom

                      there are numerous videos and testimony is prolific from Firefighters and Police who witnessed/heard/felt explosions and adequately define them as such. Not just during but prior to the onset of collapse.

                      watch this video of Firefighters discussing activity in the Lobby AFTER the planes hit and tell me they imagined it.

                      it is a short video, just a couple of minutes,

                    • McFlock

                      Nah, watched the entire clip.
                      It’s an interesting piece, but not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. I am tempted to call it your most persuasive link to date, but that is saying less than nothing.

                      PS: if explosives were used and it’s collapse was as perfectly confined as you suggest, it still “broke all the laws of physics” (translation: achieved an extremely low-probability outcome based on rough estimates of a highly complex system).

                    • McFlock

                      freedom:

                      I think it’s a video of people trying to process a massive event very shortly after it happened, subsequently being overanalysed by people who are simply looking for evidence that supports their thesis, rather than impartially assessing all the available data.
                        
                      I also love how you guys are now being a touch sarcastic about video times, simply because I can’t dick about watching youtube all day at work. Maybe the trouble you guys have is too much time on your hands so you let your imaginations run a little hot.

                    • clandestino

                      Hah ain’t that the truth(er)

                  • Nick C

                    Well that confims it then. You are all complete nutjobs. No one takes 9/11 conspiricy theories seriously anymore.

                    I cant wait for you to get up on the next global warming thread and complain about the unfounded views of idiots with crazy views who ignore the evidence and come up with increasingly bizzare rationalisations.

                    http://www.debunking911.com/

                    • Colonial Viper

                      No one takes 9/11 conspiricy theories seriously anymore.

                      A couple of thousand registered architects, engineers and academics who are members of AE911 do.

                    • Nick C

                      Yes. And im sure you could find a couple of thousand people with science degrees who question global warming without any trouble. The fact remains that the overwhelming majority of engineers and architects believe that there is no conspiricy based on the evidence of what brought the buildings down.

                      http://911-engineers.blogspot.com/

                      “Only a handful of architects and engineers question the NIST Report, but they have never come up with an alternative. Although at first blush it may seem impressive that these people don’t believe the NIST Report, remember that there are 123,000 members of ASCE(American Society of Civil Engineers) who do not question the NIST Report. There are also 80,000 members of AIA(American Institute of Architects) who do not question the NIST Report.

                      Although their field of expertise is not related to the construction of buildings – they don’t seem to have a problem with that over at AE911truth – there are also 120,000 members of ASME(American Society of Mechanical Engineers) who do not question the NIST report. There are also 370,000 members of IEEE(Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) who do not question the NIST report. There are also 40,000 members of AIChE(American Institute of Chemical Engineers) who do not question the NIST Report. There are also 35,000 members of AIAA (American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics) who do not question the NIST report. So who would you rather believe?”

  4. The latest contender for Richardhead of the year has to be Matthew Ridge.  Although why the Herald should consider this a story is beyond me.  After all who would be surprised that a rugby jock used car selling millionaire would be anti Labour?

    • Countersinker 4.1

      I thought Labour meant doing work or have the Labour Party got a mortgage on the word Labour?
      Bit like homos having a mortgage on the word gay.

      • Lanthanide 4.1.1

        How does one “mortgage” a word, exactly? What does that even mean?

      • Akldnut 4.1.2

        because of the words ‘Say no to Labour’, and the reference to voting and tick in a box on a blue background which may reasonably be regarded as encouraging or persuading voters not to vote for the Labour Party as a political party,”

        Self explanatory really – don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that it’s an underhanded election advert in the guise of a business hoarding.

        • Tigger 4.1.2.1

          Countersinker – take your homophobic crap elsewhere you worm.

        • freedom 4.1.2.2

          Quite smart starting the ‘unofficial’ National Party campaign with the Ridge. The inherent buffoonery can swipe away the seriousness of the transgression. If they got caught (AS THEY HAVE) then it is wet bus tickets and just boys having a laugh. I suspect there are many more of these types of campaign messages to come over the next eight weeks and they will now be groomed based on the fines/judgements of these early efforts.

    • tc 4.2

      lower wages, employer friendly climate and if ya don’t like the way that person’s slaving over yo car….ya got 90 days to sack em without any qusetions…..what the jocks would call a ‘full credit’ outcome.

      Ridgey and his partners would be lovin the brighter future….do the maths on charges V min wages next time you venture into one….water’s still cheap as Wodneys reforms haven’t kicked in yet.

    • Ianupnorth 4.3

      Never liked that wanker Ridge

  5. Janice 5

    I hope that someone is putting Bernie Monk up for some recognition in the New Year Honours. Despite his personal grief he has always been available to speak for the Pike River families in a concise and respectful manner. Given the facts coming out at the commission there must have been many times when he had to bite his lip when being interviewed by ignorant journalists making thier own assumptions. Now RNZ is reporting that the families have asked for a meeting with the key, when another family member was on earlier saying that it was his office that asked for the meeting – no doubt for a serious photo op after all the ra ra ra photos of the RWC.

    • vto 5.1

      Well yes Key is in Greyhole today no less. No doubt he will try to get a photo like the pathetic image of him standing adjacent to Mealamu for the nat anthem at the Japan game last week. It was like he was pretending he could run with a rugby ball… actually, has anybody ever seen Key run?

      It will be interesting to see what comes of Pike River today with mr shallow in attendance…

      • Alan 5.1.1

        Oi! ‘Greyhole’?

        At least we don’t free shakes with our happy meals 🙂

        Otherwise, i agree with what you said.

    • gingercrush 5.2

      Sorry but the way the media are reporting Pike River is doing my head in. You can’t show lawyer from EPMU, Labour Dept, Pike River, families etc. attacking someone on the stand and report it that way and then go back to Bernie Monk every bloody day so he can speak on behalf of the family. Its a royal commission and I can’t stand how the media have been reporting it. Its not healthy to have a set of conclusions made every time someone speaks. Its just not good.

  6. Jim Nald 6

    Anyone heard our country’s Attorney General trying to keep a straight face on Morning Report to cover his cock up?

    Well done, Chris dahhhling. You could have fooled us.

  7. freedom 7

    so it is not an election ad but they let him make an election statement whilst telling you it’s not an election ad. I see a wet bus ticket in ridge’s future and the herald just wanders off without a word against their manipulations.

  8. ianmac 8

    Another clearly stated opinion this time by Mai Chen on the five issues that she perceives with the retrospective Surveillance proposals.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10753400
    Her last para sums it up nicely in my opinion.
    No one wants to let criminal offenders get off scot free, but if the Government passed prospective, rather than retrospective, legislation concerning the Supreme Court decision, this would preserve the fundamental constitutional principle that we are all ruled by law (including the police) and we should know what the law and its consequences are before we act.

  9. Good on Amnesty International for campaigning ‘to halt the execution of Troy Davis, an American citizen convicted of killing a police officer. ‘

    What hapened to ‘innocent until PROVEN guilty’ – ‘beyond reasonable doubt’?

    Troy Davis has already spent 20 years on ‘Death Row’.

    America – the ‘land of the free’?

    Yeah right.

    http://www.nccd-crc.org/nccd/pubs/2006nov_factsheet_incarceration.pdf

    “The US has less than 5% of the world’s population but over 23% of the world’s incarcerated people.

    In the past 30 years, the United States has come to rely on imprisonment as its response to all types of crime.

    Even minor violations of parole or probation often lead to a return to prison.

    This has created a prison system of unprecedented size in this country.

    The US incarcerates the largest number of people in the world.

    The incarceration rate in the US is four times the world average.

    Some individual US states imprison up to six times as many people as do nations of comparable population.

    The US imprisons the most women in the world.

    Crime rates do not account for incarceration rates.

    Local and state facilities across the country are overcrowded, exacerbate prisoner health problems, risk the safety of both staff and prisoners, are in poor repair, and strain taxpayers.

    The nationwide bill for incarceration is conservatively estimated at $42 billion annually (see AOUSC, May, 2004).

    Many prison and jail systems havebeen sued for failure to meet minimum requirements for health and safety.

    Prisoner rehabilitation and reentry services are inadequately funded.”

    I wonder how many of those incarcerated in the USA are in prison for ‘white collar’ crime?

    In NZ – you will note that the ‘three strikes’ policy does NOT apply to ‘white collar’ crime?

    Penny Bright. Independent ‘Public Watchdog’. Candidate for Epsom.

    • freedom 10.1

      Troy Davis is due for Lethal Injection in a half hour, unless Georgia can admit it made a mistake.

      This case is not a million miles away from the problems we are facing in NZ. The supposition that the State knows best has only dragged Justice backwards and i have a recurring nightmare that the call for a death penalty will be revisited if National get back in.

      • joe90 10.1.1

        SCOTUS still considering the Davis stay.

      • Brett Dale 10.1.2

        Its been delayed.

        • travellerev 10.1.2.1

          Troy Davis has just been executed! I have no words

          • McFlock 10.1.2.1.1

            bugger

            • joe90 10.1.2.1.1.1

              Billie Holiday – Strange Fruit

              Southern trees bear strange fruit
              Blood on the leaves
              Blood at the root
              Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze
              Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees
              Pastoral scene of the gallant south
              The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth
              The scent of magnolia sweet and fresh
              Then the sudden smell of burning flesh
              Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck
              for the rain to gather
              for the wind to suck
              for the sun to rot
              for the tree to drop
              Here is a strange and bitter crop

              • McFlock

                very apt

                • joe90

                  Ani DiFranco – Crime for crime

                  the big day has come
                  the bell is sounding
                  i run my hands through my hair one last time
                  outside the prison walls
                  the town is gathering
                  people are trading crime for crime

                  everyone needs to see the prisoner
                  they need to make it even easier
                  they see me as a symbol, and not a human being
                  that way they can kill me
                  say it’s not murder, it’s a metaphor
                  we are killing off our own failure
                  and starting clean

                  standing in the gallows
                  everyone turned my way
                  i hear a voice ask me
                  if I’ve got any last words to say
                  and i’m looking out over the field of familiar eyes
                  somewhere in a woman’s arms a baby cries

                  i think guilt and innocence
                  they are a matter of degree
                  what might be justice to you
                  might not be justice to me
                  i went to far, i’m sorry
                  i guess now i’m going home
                  so let any amongst you cast the first stone
                  now we’ve got all these complicated machines
                  so no one person ever has to have blood on their hands
                  we’ve got complex organizations
                  and if everyone just does their job
                  no one person has to understand

                  you might be the wrong colour
                  you might be too poor
                  justice isn’t something just anyone can afford
                  you might not pull the trigger
                  you might be out in the car
                  and you might get a lethal injection
                  ’cause we take a metaphor that far

                  the big day has come
                  the bell is sounding
                  i run my hands through my hair one last time
                  outside the prison walls
                  the town has gathered
                  people are trading crime for crime
                  people are trading crime for crime
                  people are still trading crime for crime

    • Lanthanide 10.2

      You’ve missed one crucial point about the US prison system: it is modern day slave labour. Once you understand that point, the motivations for the rest of it becomes clear. Sorry for the long copy and paste dump, but this is all very pertinent:

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

      “The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and its investors are on Wall Street. “This multimillion-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors.”

      According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.”

      “Who is investing? At least 37 states have legalized the contracting of prison labor by private corporations that mount their operations inside state prisons. The list of such companies contains the cream of U.S. corporate society: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom’s, Revlon, Macy’s, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. All of these businesses are excited about the economic boom generation by prison labor. Just between 1980 and 1994, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Inmates in state penitentiaries generally receive the minimum wage for their work, but not all; in Colorado, they get about $2 per hour, well under the minimum. And in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call “highly skilled positions.” At those rates, it is no surprise that inmates find the pay in federal prisons to be very generous. There, they can earn $1.25 an hour and work eight hours a day, and sometimes overtime. They can send home $200-$300 per month.

      Thanks to prison labor, the United States is once again an attractive location for investment in work that was designed for Third World labor markets. A company that operated a maquiladora (assembly plant in Mexico near the border) closed down its operations there and relocated to San Quentin State Prison in California. In Texas, a factory fired its 150 workers and contracted the services of prisoner-workers from the private Lockhart Texas prison, where circuit boards are assembled for companies like IBM and Compaq.”

    • Brett Dale 10.3

      Penny Bright:

      You said, “Land of the free, yeah right.”

      A New Zealand politician taking cheap shots at the states, heck that hasnt happen before.

      • thejackal 10.3.1

        Why on earth is New Zealand following a country with the most defunct and destructive prison system in the world?

        • Brett Dale 10.3.1.1

          Thejackel:

          Yeah Im sure the prisons in south america, asia, africa, eastern europe are brilliant and obey by international human rights laws.

          • joe90 10.3.1.1.1

            Yeah sure, but unlike the evil empire they’re not talking out of the sides of their mouths about human rights while they go about killing their own citizens.

      • Penny Bright 10.3.2

        I’m actually a judicially-recognised ‘Public Watchdog’ (on Metrowater, water and Auckland regional governance matters) , and a publicly-acknowledged ‘anti-corruption campaigner’ – not a politician.

        I find that the electoral process is a good way of helping to focuss public attention on the issues.

        That’s the main reason why I chose to stand as an ‘Independent Public Watchdog’ candidate in the ‘Auckland Mayoral election , and Botany and Howick by-elections.

        🙂 Penny Bright. Independent ‘Public Watchdog’. Candidate for Epsom.

    • Colonial Viper 10.4

      What the US needs to do is lock more people up for longer, and then (clearly) things will improve.

      Get put behind bars for robbing a business of $500, but steal $500B from the taxpayer and get a year-end bonus as a bankster.

      Welcome to the USA.

    • Vicky32 10.6

      Good on Amnesty International for campaigning ‘to halt the execution of Troy Davis, an American citizen convicted of killing a police officer. ‘
      What hapened to ‘innocent until PROVEN guilty’ – ‘beyond reasonable doubt’?
      Troy Davis has already spent 20 years on ‘Death Row’.
      America – the ‘land of the free’?

      Sadly, they killed him! I heard that this afternoon on the BBC WS, they had it as breaking news… His last words were that he forgave those murdering him, and that the family of his ‘victim’, should look into having the case re-investigated….

  10. AAMC 11

    Earth to Labour, from England to you…

    “The economy is in flames and the neoliberal model that has brought it to this pass is bust – even as the political class clings stubbornly to the orthodoxies of the boom years. But those who grasp that the crisis is transforming politics will shape its future.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/21/radical-action-drag-economy-brink

    • marsman 11.1

      We all knew that the neoliberal model was a nasty crock of shit by the time Roger Douglas got his knighthood, didn’t we?

      • AAMC 11.1.1

        Perhaps the Left should be better grasping the changing narrative then!

        This is the opportunity to educate the electorate and show the status quo is the cause for the predicament, and that Key n co are wedded to an ideology which proved itself to have failed in Chile in the 70’s, Asia in the 90’s.
        And now that the debt bubble fueled by Asia – who learnt the lessons we didn’t, and saved and managed rather than consumed and deregulated, flooding us with liquidity with which to pretend we were booming – has burst and the failure throughout the Western economies is irrefutable, why isn’t the Left dominating the debate rather than running scared of the focus group.

      • KJT 11.1.2

        Some of us were saying it at the time.

        Unfortunately everything we warned about has occurred.

        George Orwell was right!

  11. Fukushima is Worse

    Last night, New Zealand’s mainstream media reiterated that the Fukushima nuclear disaster was officially recognized as an accident similar in scale to Chernobyl, and that typhoon Roke, was heading towards the stricken nuclear power plant, which was devastated in the 11 March earthquake and tsunami…

  12. Colonial Viper 13

    Keep the Middle East poor and oppressed quiet

    By giving them free food and social services.

    Can’t have a revisit of the ‘Arab Spring’.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-19/opec-s-1t-cash-quiets-poor-on-longest-ever-100-oil.html

  13. Ianupnorth 14

    Here’s a thought, only just occurred to me.
     
    Anyone think the price of fuel has been upped for the last week or so and for the next couple of weeks? Considerably more traffic (camper vans, rental cars, etc) on the roads.
     
    Are the petrol companies price gouging?

    • insider 14.1

      Last week the AA said they thought the increases were reasonable or in line with historic margins.

    • thejackal 14.2

      They are price gouging… the cost of a barrel of Brent crude has fallen by $20 over the last two weeks. Being that the oil industry wants National to win (because National will ignore New Zealand’s obligations under the Kyoto protocol an is pro deep sea oil drilling), we can expect the price of crude to continue to fall leading up to the next general election. The increase at the pump is just a small blimp to take advantage of the increased traffic.

  14. I have waited in vain, of course ,for the Herald to headline the sleazy actions of National President Goodfellow regarding his business concerned with allegations of slave labour with his shiping company.
    There was a small column in last weeks Sunday Star but so far I have seen nothing in the Herald.Just imagine if this had involved any one from Labour.It would have been headline news , In fact they would be demanding his resignation and prosecution .

  15. Environment vs Big Oil & Gas

    We all know that our reliance on petroleum-based products will come to an end, the question is when and how much damage is going to be caused in the mean time. The difficulty is that we’ve built our entire system around cheap oil with little consideration for the environment. Even when informed of the danger, mankind is failing to change its habits…

  16. freedom 17

    Open mike 22/09/2011

    McFlock,
    My work allows me to maintain a proximity to ongoing discussions, i am not going to apologise for that.
    I am dissapointed however with your insinuations against the work ethic of people you do not know.
    That said, let’s move on shall we?

    Firemen in distress.
    I always tend to trust reality over editing.

    In any investigation of a terrorist attack, a natural disaster or similarly destructive event, the eyewitness reports of trained professionals in the moments after an event are proven to be some of the most crucial.

    Years ago, I did watch a lot of 9/11 videos. Many of them were terrible and were not very constructive. Others were pure dis-info and were highly destructive by design. Knowing this, i actually do not spend all day watching YouTube. I occassionally pop in to grab a video i know is there, when requiring the content for illustration of a discussion. I downloaded many of these videos and now and again i may watch one or a part of one. Since then it has been a steady diet of actual information not just absorbing others’ visual interpretations of the content. I absolutely agree there is a risk of over exposure to information and a corresponding impairment to judgement.
    Is 9/11 Truth the only topic with this malady?

    • McFlock 17.1

      Ongoing discussions is one thing – I’m in the same priviledged boat, there. But being able to set aside 3 hours to watch something in the hope that it will be more persuasive than the wishful thinking previously exhibited seems a bit high-cost low-gain.
        
      Yes, professional contemporaneous eyewitness statements are usually very valuable. This is why I’m not quite so derisive as if someone is arguing that aluminium cannot possibly melt in a fire. But such footage is indicative, not conclusive. E.g. even if there were explosions, were those bombs, structural failures prior to the eventual collapse, or even gas cylinders from restaurants, floor polishers, forklifts, or even something else that is explosive under some circumstances and perfectly reasonable to store in a large facility?
        
      I think the issue about 9/11 is that it goes to a lot of people’s hearts and serves to highlight their initial biases. These are things that we all need to overcome to lok at the evidence impartially, but as soon as we do that we realise that 99.9% of the “evidence” is supposition, hearsay, assumption, overinterpretation of misinterpretation or whatever – we’re swamped with bullshit.
        
      All that can be said with any degree of probability is that it was then used as a casus belli against at least one nation that was almost certainly unconnected to the attacks.

      • freedom 17.1.1

        It is most certainly the Wars that are too often neglected in 9/11 discussion. I like to think people generally dislike them and prefer not to be reminded they are ongoing. They certainly do not smile when shown War’s relationship to the world we share. The pure subconscious terror that many experience as doubt gnaws their heart has become more obvious and more pertinent as the years pass.
        Many people use this as a reality barometer.

        Another useful measure would have been a ‘global debate worm’ during the Toronto Hearings.
        McFlock , If it began with the 99.9 % figure you provided, over the four days of the evidence,
        i believe the nose dive of belief in the Official Story would have been impressive to witness.

        • The Voice of Reason 17.1.1.1

          “If it began with the 99.9 % denial figure you provided, over the four days of the evidence,i believe the nose dive of belief in the Official Story would have been impressive to witness.”
           
          What’s really important is that no evidence of a crime at was presented over the four days, freedom. What was presented, as McFlock suggests, was supposition, hearsay, assumption, over interpretation or misinterpretation.
           
          By the way, would you convict the Urewera accused on ‘evidence’ as flimsy as that that you currently hold in regard to a 9/11 conspiracy? Law is a yes or no thing. Either you have evidence or you don’t. The coppers didn’t, so they dropped the charges against most. There needs to be a level of proof of a conspiracy before any of your theories have any validity. Any credence. So, even if the theories are all correct, it doesn’t matter a damn if you can’t pin it on someone.
           
          And then there is the little question of why. Why the fuck would you do this to your own country? Cui bono? There is no benefit to America, only downsides. And, as I know you think it was needed to spur a war or two, why bother? A fertiliser bomb laden truck outside the US embassy childcare facility in Baghdad or Kabul or any number of similar atrocities would work just as well and be a damn sight easier to organise.
           
          Nah, it’s shit. Sorry mate, but there you have it.

  17. big bruv 18

    So has Matthew Ridge made it onto Campbell Larsen’s list of people he wants to see “hurry up and die” yet?

    Imagine that, two high profile league players and all round working class men coming out and backing the government.

    It has not been a good week for you guys has it.

    • millsy 18.1

      Ridge is an entertainer. Not a league player. Right from when he signed his contract with Manly in ’89 he became an entertainer. Not an ‘all round working class man’. Pro sport is all about entertainment. NOT sport.

  18. joe90 19

    Only in America is there money to be made in state sanctioned killings.

    A Moment Of Brilliance–How To Not Kill Troy Davis

    We also call on all employees of Dr. Musso’s businesses, RainbowMedical Associates and Correct Health, Inc., who have anyinvolvement with implementing the Georgia Department of Corrections execution protocol, to refuse to participate in theexecution of Troy Davis. Remember your humanity and that youroath is to facilitate healing, not killing!

    #correcthealth

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