Open mike 22/10/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 22nd, 2012 - 110 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

110 comments on “Open mike 22/10/2012 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    22 October 2012 at 7:57 am

    Are all police allowed to lie under oath in any hearing?

    And are they allowed indemnity from investigation and prosecution if they are caught out?

    Or is the power to lie under oath with indemnity only permitted for senior police in exceptional, or politically charged cases?

    In a thinly veiled threat, the Police Association have backed Chief Inspector Grant Wormald, demanding that he must not be investigated for committing perjury in the Kim Dotcom hearing.

    With this sort of open (and secret) support, it is little wonder that Chief Inspector Grant Wormald has now been proven to be no stranger to giving false testimony under oath in another hearing.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7845990/Dotcom-raid-officer-headed-bike-gang-probe

    For allowing senior police to exercise this new power to gain convictions in court against those the state have already determined must be found guilty, I would like to grant the new title of Detective Inspector Wormtongue, in honour of Detective Inspector Grant Wormald for openly and boldy pioneering this new police policy.

    • Jenny 1.1
      22 October 2012 at 9:06 am

      What does this all mean for civil liberties?

      Will judges continue to give greater weight to police testimony against conflicting testimony from those who find themselves in the dock?

      Will the fact that police are now allowed to lie under oath and not face any indemnity see defence witness testimony given equal weight in court?

      Apart from the macro questions of police indemnity from prosecution for perjury…..

      Will Officer Wormtongue ever again personally lead an investigation where he will be required to give evidence in court?

      What would it mean for the police case if he did?

      Would all evidence of previous inconsistent testimony from Officer Wormtongue be disallowed and ruled out of order?

      Could this be called justice?

    • Murray Olsen 1.2
      22 October 2012 at 10:19 am

      Police have always felt free to lie under oath, with a compliant judiciary accepting almost anything they say. What’s new about the Red Devils case is that they have made deceiving the courts central to the operation. If this makes a few judges treat their evidence with the cynicism it deserves, that will be a step forward.

      • Treetop 1.2.1
        22 October 2012 at 1:03 pm

        Police lie in the courts, at an inquiry, to the IPCA and to their employer (when an individual tries to expose them).

        Hells Angel fights to get drug charge thrown out
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/gangs/news/article.cfm?c_id=217&objectid=10812623

        Police do not up hold the law by breaking it.

        • McFlock 1.2.1.1
          22 October 2012 at 3:08 pm

          Damned straight.
               
          And the police spokesperson shows that Key’s “in charge but oblivious” leadership style is trickling down: “Detective Inspector Wormald was the officer in charge of the investigation but was not a decision-maker in regard to the arrest and prosecution of Mr Wilson”.
               
          Happened under his watch, he might have even known about it, but it wasn’t his decision… [spit] 

          • Treetop 1.2.1.1.1
            22 October 2012 at 5:12 pm

            And it is bullshit that politicians do not influence police decisions or have a quiet word on the side which is called interference. e.g. Banks statement being blacked out.

            What gets me is when Key says the police are independent.

  3. ropata 3
    22 October 2012 at 8:28 am

    bsprout : hugh fletcher slates laissez faire economics
    outlines the worst failures of the past 3 decades of econ policy. CAFCA was right!

    canty uni: steve keen public talk in christchurch
    shows how the current GFC is twice as bad as the great depression… possibly worse

    • prism 3.1
      22 October 2012 at 1:16 pm

      ropata
      Thanks for great links.

    • RedLogix 3.2
      22 October 2012 at 2:27 pm

      Ropata … thanks for the Steven Keen lecture. Some of the material is New Zealand specific and you won’t get these details laid out like this elsewhere.

      Highly recommended for anyone here who is even remotely interested in economics. Warning he talks pretty fast and it’s likely a dense download.

      The crucial point to grasp is that Keen is a real mathematician, and that much of what he is saying here is backed by the kind of language, tools and thinking that engineers understand works in the real world. This might not be clear from the lecture.

      • ropata 3.2.1
        22 October 2012 at 2:53 pm

        welcome.. keen has a fair bit of ego but he’s a very smart dude.. and shows how NZ’s property bubble (private debt vs GDP) is around the worst in the OECD. (although the UK and USA current account deficits are insanely worse than anyone’s)

        • RedLogix 3.2.1.1
          22 October 2012 at 3:07 pm

          keen has a fair bit of ego

          Yes that was pretty much my own impression until I met him in person … once he stops ‘lecturing’ he’s quite different.

          And even then I admire his drive and commitment to his ideas.

          • RedLogix 3.2.1.1.1
            22 October 2012 at 4:06 pm

            OK … just finished listening to the whole thing. In some ways better than the Wgtn lecture I was at, especially the Q+A session at the end. Really worthwhile even though it’s close to a couple of hours long.

            Keen’s intellectual ambit is quite remarkable.

            • Colonial Viper 3.2.1.1.1.1
              22 October 2012 at 5:21 pm

              You’ve got to remember that being a heterodox economist, Keen was considered an outsider, a lone ranger by the wider (Chicago school/Washingon consensus) economics profession. And he still is by in large, but the GFC greatly changed that and he has also found other audiences now.

              Frankly you need a bit of inner fortitude and ego when your neoclassical colleagues are used to dumping on your work from a great height.

              • karol …
                22 October 2012 at 5:29 pm

                I’ve watched the first half hour so far.  It’s interesting and useful, though I think I’ll only remember a couple of main points.  It’ll probably take me a while to get through the whole 1.5 hours.  I will remember the quote(or a version of it) from a delusional mainstream economist that went something like this:  he descrbed an increase in uneployment as “an increase in American’s leisure time”.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  22 October 2012 at 5:38 pm

                  This is a slightly more approachable presentation by Steve Keen (its a BBC interview). If you start here you’ll pick the rest up more easily.

                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j5h51/Analysis_Steve_Keen_Why_Economics_Is_Bunk/

                  One key point: the level of economic activity in our modern economies is based on the acceleration of debt. When people get into more debt faster, employment improves and economic activity increases.

                  When the rate of increase in debt slows down, or shock horror, goes negative, both employment and the economy tanks.

                  • karol …
                    22 October 2012 at 5:43 pm

                    Thanks, CV.  Actually, I’ll look at the BBC link later.  It might help sme things stick in my mind.  I already grasped your “One key point”.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      22 October 2012 at 5:50 pm

                      🙂

                      I’ll follow up with a second order tidbit then:

                      The banks and financiers can tell ahead of time when the housing market is going to go up or down, based on how much mortgage debt they can observe themselves issuing.

                      And by observing the rate of general debt they are issuing, banks can predict ahead of time whether an entire economy is going to improve or decline.

                      AND of course the banks aren’t just neutral bystanders. By actively choosing to tighten or loosen the flow of credit into an economy, the banks and financiers can deliberately push an entire economy into a boom or a bust.

                  • Rogue Trooper …
                    23 October 2012 at 10:04 am

                    Don’t ya just love the adjective “tanks” TankGirl?

  4. Rogue Trooper 4
    22 October 2012 at 8:33 am

    Yet, for the population getting their news from MSM and the evening “news”, it would appear all’s well this Labour Weekend, notwithstanding the inevitable road carnage. (police reviewing their vehicle fleet; fuel related? respond to assault with a Volt)

  5. ropata 5
    22 October 2012 at 8:52 am

    Sustento: Raf Manji’s econ blog:
    – how the high dollar is hollowing out the real economy
    – why nz needs not QE but ‘monetary dialysis’
    – selling your soul: the unintended consequences of asset sales

    “To be, or not to be, that is the question,
    Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
    And by opposing end them.” Hamlet, Act III, Scene 1.

    It seems, after nearly 30 years of deregulated markets, that we face a sea of troubles ourselves. An extreme global debt deleveraging is upon us, the numbers too outrageous to even consider. Not only have we consumed beyond our means, we have mortgaged our future. Whereas once credit was difficult to come by and banks conservative in their lending (can you pay this back?), the brave new world brought us access to unlimited treasures, all paid for on a credit system, which had limited restraint.

    As financial models became more complex and debt could be packaged, securitised and sold off, all sense of restraint was lost. Who owed whom was lost in a parallel universe of metaphor: swap, hedge, collateral, obligation, repurchase. Repaying principal and interest, in the old fashioned sense was put to one side. Can you afford the interest? Don’t worry about the principal, that will pay itself off as the price rises! Can’t afford the interest? Don’t worry, we’ll lend that to you as well, or have a holiday (from interest that is….keeps charging but pay it some other time). Tick, tock, tick, tock.

    Maybe Hamlet wasn’t as crazy as he sounded.

    • Dr Terry 5.1
      22 October 2012 at 10:26 am

      Did Hamlet sound crazy? Other would consider him one of the sane in a crazy society.

      • ropata 5.1.1
        22 October 2012 at 3:00 pm

        Exactly. And the point of the Hamlet quote is that we need politicians with the balls to act, and protect the people of NZ from the global pillagers of currency/resources/labour.

        On our behalf, Hamlet ponders the road ahead:

        “The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
        No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
        And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
        Than fly to others that we know not of?

        Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
        And thus the native hue of resolution
        Is sicklied o’er, with the pale cast of thought,
        And enterprises of great pitch and moment
        With this regard their currents turn awry,
        And lose the name of action..…”

  6. marsman 6
    22 October 2012 at 9:14 am

    Save the Ross Sea. Avaaz have enlisted Leonardo di Caprio to spearhead a petition to support the creation of an Antarctic Marine Sanctuary. Russia, South Korea ‘and a few other countries’ want to keep on fishing in those waters. NZ thanks to Gerry Brownlee, Steven Joyce and Whatsit Carter have decided we don’t need to sign that treaty, that it’s ok to ruin that pristine environment.

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_the_southern_ocean_5/?cgkRPab

    • Herodotus 6.1
      22 October 2012 at 1:28 pm

      From reading this I get the impression that Labour are in agreement of the lack of importance in this issue. Why don’t we just mix and match the Lab and Nat MP’s just like we use to do at school into 2 teams. With the captains alternating who was to be picked into each team.
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10842069
      “Our consistent policy has been to make sure we always use the best science,” Ruth Dyson said, as it had done to support the net bans to protect Maui dolphins.

      Ruth Dyson said that while Mr Jones was not the party spokesman on the Ross Sea issue, “he also didn’t say anything that any of us would have gone ‘holy moly – he said what?”‘

      • Jim Nald 6.1.1
        22 October 2012 at 2:49 pm

        Yet again, this is one of the very many signs revealing poor Labour leadership and that the Labour Party is not ready to win the government benches.

    • muzza 7.1
      22 October 2012 at 10:30 am

      Indeed, and sadly the masses believe their thoughts to be originals.

      Even the few who are capable of understand the mirage, are still somewhat left to shape thoughts, opinions, behaviours, understandings etc, based on this temporal world.

      I’m sure TPTB are sharing all the knowledge with us, for the betterment of humanity /sarc

  8. Dv 8
    22 October 2012 at 10:21 am

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/7846531/Insecure-benefit-cards-slammed

    The Pin for the benefit cards in printed on the back of the card!!!!!

    DUH DUH

    • muzza 8.1
      22 October 2012 at 10:32 am

      Labour’s social development spokeswoman Jacinda Ardern said the lack of greater security on the cards was “sloppy”.

      Sloppy, no Jacinda, that is yet another deliberate “privacy cockup’!

      • Dv 8.1.1
        22 October 2012 at 10:38 am

        You have got to wonder why they don’t have a user changeable pin.
        My guess the infrastructure is too expensive.
        They would nee pin terminals in all the offices and secure computer software to run it.

        • Dv 8.1.1.1
          22 October 2012 at 11:24 am

          AND isn’t the card supposed to be helping the clients with financial management.

          One of the FIRST rule of PIN nos financial management is Don’t share them!!!

          • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1
            22 October 2012 at 3:16 pm

            If PINs are too difficult for the IT whizzes in MSD [lol – probably the same team that ok’d the kiosks] what about the other option you get for credit cards: signatures? Not perfect, or accessible to all, but better than writing it on the card.
               
            Oh but wait, it’s on the back of the card, it’s okay. Damn, couldn’t find the scary movie clip with the photos “they’re all blank!” – “turn them over” 

        • muzza 8.1.1.2
          22 October 2012 at 2:21 pm

          Nah, its another card, another number, another link in the chain a servitude for everyone..

          The oldest game plan in the book, is start at the bottom and work your way up while the masses are not paying attention, thinking they are “safe” in theor comfort zones, or too busy to pay attention, possibly both.

          The experiment ploughs on, with little resistence

  9. just saying 9
    22 October 2012 at 10:37 am

    http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/10/22/thank-you-to-nzs-workers/

    Proof from red alert today, as if we needed it, that Labour politicians don’t read left-wing blogs.

    The sad thing is, Ms Fenton could have celebrated the hard work and valuable contributions, workers in the paid workforce make, without slapping anyone in the face, not stay-at-home parents, not beneficiaries, not the army of volunteers without whom much of our civilised society would come to a grinding halt, not those caring for a sick or disabled relative, nor the sick, injured or disabled, not the tireless activists who give up a good deal to try and fight injustice and inequality, no-one.

    I’m certainly glad to read that Labour is aware of the erosions of the rights, working conditions and wages of paid workers and that it intends to make things better when next in government, even though exactly what they intend to do is always left unsaid.

    But to use the headline “Thank You to NZs Workers”, and then write that piece in today, in 2012 is to demonstrate culpably negligent ignorance. And a very dangerous attitude.

    • Te Reo Putake 9.1
      22 October 2012 at 10:46 am

      Oh, bollocks. Did you actually read the post, js? Can you point out the bit where the author “slaps” anyone in your list?

      • just saying 9.1.1
        22 October 2012 at 11:05 am

        Yes I did TRP. Did you?

        I kind of predicted that you’d be the first to say bollocks. The difference is, because you read left-wing blogs you immediately knew what I was talking about, whether you think it is rubbish or not. So you’re ahead of Ms Fenton.

        I’m hoping the union movement is evolving in its, in some cases, draconian attitudes on this issue too. Just being aware that there is alternative viewpoint to default assumptions is an important first step, and you’ve already made it whether you wanted to or not, TRP.

        • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1.1
          22 October 2012 at 11:22 am

          Top prediction js. Let me guess your thought process: 

          js: If I write some complete bollocks, I bet TRP will call me on it.
           
          js, 2 minutes later: ‘wow, that complete bollocks strategy really works!’

      • QoT 9.1.2
        22 October 2012 at 11:12 am

        I read it, and I agree with js – Fenton, like Shearer, clearly thinks that paid work is the be-all and end-all of human existence.

        You can see it right there where she says: They are often the forgotten part of the economic equation, but without workers, no business and no public service could get ahead.

        And without unpaid stay-at-home parents, our economy would be fucked. Without an available pool of unemployed people, our economy would be fucked. Without volunteers going unpaid providing the kinds of social support which any government with a soul would be backing, our economy and society would be fucked.

        I’m pretty sure it’s possible for Darien Fenton and David Shearer to say “yeah, go workers!” without shitting all over people whose unpaid labour is far more frequently ignored and demeaned.

        But that might involve a little backpedalling on Labour’s “deserving poor” rhetoric.

        • Te Reo Putake 9.1.2.1
          22 October 2012 at 11:19 am

          It’s a post about labour day, ffs. Fenton does not “shit on” anyone, nor does she “slap” anyone. Is Fenton supposed to telepathically guess what js and you think needs mentioning in a short blog post about the annual celebration of working NZers? Or is this the start of a campaign to change the name of the day to Labour (and anyone else js and QoT think is worth mentioning) Day?

          • QoT 9.1.2.1.1
            22 October 2012 at 11:23 am

            Yes, you’ve definitely spotted out cunning plan there, TRP.

            Or it could be that we think experienced politicians could exercise a modicum of thought when making broad sweeping statements which alienate vast swathes of the population who Labour then expects will vote for them.

            • Te Reo Putake 9.1.2.1.1.1
              22 October 2012 at 11:26 am

              Or they could write a short blog on Labour Day celebrating NZ workers.

            • ak 9.1.2.1.1.2
              22 October 2012 at 11:40 am

              What an interesting thread.

              Disclaimer: the above statement is in no way intended to be any criticism or derogation, implied or explicit, of any person or persons unable for any reason at all to contribute in any way to the thread referred to, with or without interesting comments under any definition of “interesting” defined as “reasonable” under existing case law, inclusive of but not excluding other groups and expecially not stay-at-home parents, not beneficiaries, not the army of volunteers without whom much of our civilised society would come to a grinding halt, not those caring for a sick or disabled relative, nor the sick, injured or disabled, not the tireless activists who give up a good deal to try and fight injustice and inequality, nor unpaid stay-at-home parents, without whom our economy would be fucked, nor an available pool of unemployed people without whom our economy would be fucked, nor volunteers going unpaid providing the kinds of social support which any government with a soul would be backing, without whom our economy and society would be fucked.

              • RedLogix …
                22 October 2012 at 11:45 am

                +1m internets!!

              • ropata …
                22 October 2012 at 1:17 pm

                without taxpayers nz would be truly fucked so a big THANK YOU is in order to the nz labour party for remembering their roots on LABOUR day.

                how foolish and ungracious are some people …

                • just saying …
                  22 October 2012 at 2:12 pm

                  No-one has denied that paid workers deserve a big thank you. They most certainly do.
                  Are you being disingenuous, or are you just not paying attention?

          • karol 9.1.2.1.2
            22 October 2012 at 11:28 am

            TRP, I’m pretty sure I mentioned paid and unpaid work, beneficiaries etc,  in my short-ish blog post on Labour Weekend, “Backwards to the future”.  It’s not hard.  I’m sure Fenton would also have been up to it, maybe in a different way – there are probably many ways it can be done.
             
            In focusing on the things to celebrate about what was achieved when Labour Day was introduced, it’s quite relevant to update the issues for current conditions.  If you look at that link in my post, to the Dunedin 1894 Labour Day Parade image, you will find it says this:

             
            …you can see one of the floats has a banner reading ‘Otago Central Railway We Must Have It’. From the beginning Labour Day parades were often used to draw attention to other political or economic issues – in this case urging the government to complete a controversial regional transport project.

            • weka 9.1.2.1.2.1
              22 October 2012 at 11:34 am

              How ironic given that Central Otago rail is now a bike track.

            • Te Reo Putake 9.1.2.1.2.2
              22 October 2012 at 11:49 am

              Yep, Karol and I’m sure other commentators made the same link, just as I’m sure many didn’t. Your excellent post was longer and more wide ranging than Fenton’s. Yours was written to bring out the wider implications of work, unemployment, underemployment, non paid work and to bring those strands together. Fenton just wrote a short blog on Labour day for those to whom the day is dedicated. There isn’t a damn thing wrong with either blog post and it’s going to be a sad day if people are condemned for what they didn’t write rather than what they did.  Bring back the thought police, I say!

              • QoT …
                22 October 2012 at 12:05 pm

                Darien Fenton is a full-time politician and the Labour Party’s spokesperson on Labour.

                Somehow I feel sure she’s capable of doing just a teensy bit more than “a short blog post” on Labour Day.

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  22 October 2012 at 12:23 pm

                  Again, what is your point, QoT? Fenton also completely failed to mention meerkats, the late Elvis Presley and the comedic music hall stylings of the even later Arthur Askey. And she outrageously refused to acknowlege the real significance of today’s date. Yes, it’s Kim Kardashian’s birthday, as we all know. Damn her eyes! Damn her, I say!

              • just saying …
                22 October 2012 at 12:18 pm

                http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/

                Spot the difference

                A brief Labour Day blogbost from Bowalley Road. In which Chris doesn’t insult those who work outside the paid workforce because from the start he’s completely clear about who he’s talking about. And he doesn’t even mention any other category of worker . It’s really not that hard TRP.

                It wasn’t long ago that workers were routinely referred to as ‘men’ and many would have screamed (and some still would, but I don’t think you’d be among them) Political-Correctness-gone-Mad!! if a politician who used such a term was called on it.

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  22 October 2012 at 12:26 pm

                  Fenton doesn’t insult those ‘outside the paid workforce’, js. You are making shit up. She does actually mention workers who have been laid off, so the whole point of your wankery dissolves right there.

                  • QoT …
                    22 October 2012 at 12:30 pm

                    … which still reinforces the idea that paid work = only source of “dignity”, per Shearer.

                    But given your pathetic little “meerkats” comments above I’m just going to assume from this point that you have no actual interest in debating the actual points js and I have been making.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      22 October 2012 at 12:35 pm

                      It’s hard to debate what doesn’t exist, QoT. Ask a Christian.

                    • QoT …
                      22 October 2012 at 12:40 pm

                      Ah, that explains it. You’ve got some kind of plug-in installed which replaces all of my and js’ comments with “LALALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU.”

                      Let’s be honest, TRP. You think unpaid workers are like meerkats, and as such you see no problem in the Labour Party ignoring their existence and shafting a good proportion of the people who, come election day, Labour will be outraged don’t dutifully show up to vote for them.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      22 October 2012 at 12:42 pm

                      TRP, seems like there’s very little faith left to go around.

                      What happens to a church when the people lose faith in it? Congregations and donations go down. The church becomes less relevant to the every day life of the community.

                      I wonder what happens when people lose faith in Labour?

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      22 October 2012 at 5:38 pm

                      Nope, QoT, I was taking the piss, exaggerating for effect. If you want to expound further on why you think the unemployed resemble meerkats, but not Arthur Askey or Elvis, fire away.
                       
                      Debating ‘what people should have said’ is equally mindless. That’s my complaint about js’s comment, way back up there. Mountain, meet molehill.

                    • QoT …
                      22 October 2012 at 5:40 pm

                      Debating ‘what people should have said’ is equally mindless.

                      Good to know you dismiss a large proportion of the posts on this site and in the blogosphere in general, then.

                    • QoT …
                      22 October 2012 at 5:40 pm

                      Also, gosh, you weren’t literally serious about the meerkats comment? I truly had NO IDEA. I thought you were totally advocating that meerkats’ roles in our economy were equal to unpaid workers’.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      22 October 2012 at 5:53 pm

                      Yep, I have high standards and debating made up shit doesn’t meet the mark. Why not discuss what Fenton actually said?

                    • QoT …
                      22 October 2012 at 6:48 pm

                      You are so right, TRP. In future we can only ever discuss the words people said, and can never, ever infer their meaning, or consider the things they left unsaid, and we can definitely never put their comments into existing context.

                      So that’s every single post on every single statement ever made by John Key banned by your edict, I suppose. Every suggestion of alternative policies tossed in the bin. Every criticism of every weasel-worded government policy out of line. Wait, no, that’s fucking ridiculous.

                      Just be honest, TRP – all you really want is for no one to criticise Labour/Darien Fenton, for whatever reason, and you’ll make up blatantly stupid principles of discussion to justify yourself.

                  • just saying …
                    22 October 2012 at 2:01 pm

                    I know you aren’t listening TRP, but for anyone else reading this debate please try and imagine this. I could have used any of a wide variety of kinds of examples, but this one is close to my heart.

                    You are the elderly sole parent and carer of a now adult child with severe disabilities and high needs. You’ve just finished the morning toileting, washing, dressing, and breakfast tasks. It’s taken you just over 3 and a half hours, and you’re already tired though the day has barely begun. Your child is now set for a wee while so you get on the computer with a well-earned cup of tea for a flick around the ‘sphere.

                    You may not even know it’s Labour day because you don’t get any holidays, your toil is 24/7 and you’re never ever going to have a retirement. You go to Red Alert. God know’s why, it’s not like the Labour Party represents your interests in any way. But hope springs eternal for some.

                    And the headline says “Thank You to NZ’s Workers”
                    It’s not like you get much acknowlegment let alone thanks for your valuable contribution to your community so you read on. And what do you find? The morning slog that has worn you out and set your arthritic body throbbing, along with the last forty years of similar toil has not been work. You had thought you would literally work until the moment you drop dead. You’ve probably saved the country millions in the cost of institutional care, but more importantly, you always done your very best for your beloved child. But in fact this is not work because there is no pay cheque (or holidays, sick days, minimum conditions or labour regualtions) it’s actually something else that will drain all your resources until you die :leisure.

                    • ropata …
                      22 October 2012 at 3:25 pm

                      A point well made js. I see where you’re coming from now, but I’m sure the labour blog didn’t deliberately exclude carers and volunteers. Love isn’t measured in dollar terms but without it our society has no soul.

                    • QoT …
                      22 October 2012 at 3:40 pm

                      ropata, the problem isn’t just Darien Fenton’s blog making unpaid workers invisible. It’s that it comes right after Shearer did a speech which quite clearly spelled out that if you’re not in paid work, you have no dignity and make no contribution to your community.

                      That’s the context Fenton’s blog post sits in, which is why her however-accidental erasing of people’s unpaid work is seriously problematic to me.

                • RedLogix …
                  22 October 2012 at 12:41 pm

                  Well yes I’ve read both and I can take something I like from both. And yes if I had to choose I’d pick Chris Trotter’s post for two reasons:

                  1. Unlike some around here I’ve long admired Chris for the steadfastness of his moral compass. Sure there are some themes and topics he’s definitely not PC on, but I’m prepared to set them aside. And even on a bad day he still writes the arse off anyone else on the left in this country.

                  2. Chris goes somewhat deeper into the root of the issue; the madness that is the neo-liberal experiment; an experiment that was perhaps implemented more ruthlessly in this country than any other.

                  But then Darien is a Labour Party MP, the party of union workers, not the ‘non-workers’. And after 30 years of neo-liberalism the interests of unionised workers cannot be decoupled from the interests of the state and business owners. After all no business = no jobs. This equation has always been an achilles heel for labour, creating an incipient fault-line for the right to drive wedges down.

                  There are far too many low-paid working families, working 80hrs or more a week, broken shifts and a broken family life who look across the back fence to a DPB family who don’t seem to be all that much worse off. Frankly it just does not feel fair and fuels resentment.

                  Of course the root cause is the miserable wages the working family is getting, yet a National govt will re-frame this unfairness with the welfare family cast as bludgers, whose miserable existence should be made even more dire in order to make things right in the world again.

                  Let’s try and be a little clearer who the real opponent is here.

                  • AsleepWhileWalking …
                    22 October 2012 at 1:36 pm

                    +1
                    I have become highly sensitized to the negation of wirk. Labour should take care that it doesn’t sound more like RedNational on this issue.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  22 October 2012 at 2:55 pm

                  I take it you mean this post.

        • weka 9.1.2.2
          22 October 2012 at 11:26 am

          Pitting the working class against the underclass would have to be one of the stupidest things we could do at this point in time.
           
          Of course Fenton technically didn’t do anything other than render non-employed workers invisible. If on the rest of the year those workers were acknowledged and respected then it wouldn’t matter that on Labour Day only the paid workers were (and the historical context honoured). But they aren’t, so I have to agree with QoT, it’s a very significant omission.
           
          Other than that, the blogpost is a pretty poor showing from a political party that is meant to be based on workers.

          • RedLogix 9.1.2.2.1
            22 October 2012 at 11:34 am

            Pitting the working class against the underclass would have to be one of the stupidest things we could do at this point in time.

            But so easy to do because our current tax and redistribution system is so broken. Which is exactly WHY National will keep it broken.

          • Bill 9.1.2.2.2
            22 October 2012 at 1:00 pm

            Last union I was a member of had this under its objects : ‘recruit and organise workers (waged or uneaged, free or incarcerated.)’

            So, y’know..if a union can recognise all workers, why can’t a bloody politician.

            • The Invisible Meerkat 9.1.2.2.2.1
              22 October 2012 at 1:19 pm

              Indeed. eg Waitemata Unite
               

              Unite is a union for low paid workers unemployed and beneficiaries. The Waitemata Branch of Unite includes students, mothers, carers, those with illnesses or disabilities, unemployed, full time and casual workers. We are all members of the working class and united we will win!
               

              http://waitemataunite.blogspot.co.nz/

    • Bill 9.2
      22 October 2012 at 11:20 am

      At least there was this admission. Finally.

      We subsidise low wages through working for families..

    • Draco T Bastard 9.3
      22 October 2012 at 1:28 pm

      I’m certainly glad to read that Labour is aware of the erosions of the rights, working conditions and wages of paid workers and that it intends to make things better when next in government, even though exactly what they intend to do is always left unsaid.

      That, IMO, is because they don’t actually intend to do anything.

  11. prism 11
    22 October 2012 at 12:41 pm

    A relaxing change from dealing with topics of great importance to us and the world!! Attendees even doze off during the day’s sessions. The Boring Lectures. Sounded intriguing on Radionz this morning. Blurb:

    Labour Day 22/10 – 10:25 James Ward
    James Ward is a boredom enthusiast who blogs at I Like Boring Things. He is the founder and organiser of the annual Boring Conference in London. Boring 2012 takes place in November.

  12. Martin 12
    22 October 2012 at 1:58 pm

    Clearly the US is in no position to lecture Russia about Pussy Riot. Free the Grand Jury Resistors!

    http://www.salon.com/2012/10/11/third_northwest_activist_jailed_for_staying_silent/

    (For reasons currently unknown Leah-Lynn Plante has since been freed; Matt Duran and Katherine “Kteeo” Olejnik remain in prison).

  13. millsy 13
    22 October 2012 at 4:12 pm

    On Labour Day the NZ Herald takes the oppurtunity to rip into David Shearer simply for saying that NZ workers should have first dibs on earthquake recovery jobs.

    God forbid we should start training up our own workforce, instead of just importing it, as what has been happening for the past 20 years, resulting in mass unemployment and low wages.

    Turn the immigration taps off, and youth unemployment will vanish overnight.

  14. Rogue Trooper 14
    22 October 2012 at 4:34 pm

    A Film 🙂
    How Far Is Heaven: a film by Christopher Pryor & Miriam Smith

    Official Selection New Zealand International Film Festival 2012

    It is about Hiruharama on the Whanganui River.

    Did you know, that the Turkish Government attempted to prosecute citizen publishers of Chomsky’s
    “Manufacturing Consent” under laws concerning Destabilisation of Society? I wonder how long before freedom of speech becomes circumscribed here; not to say, I do not think Hate Speech is helping the cohesion of our society at all, in fact, I am perpetually perplexed how TPTB allow it to proliferate the way that it has, and is continuing to. As Ellul challenges, “What price freedom?”

    Mark Solomon presented the position of Iwi well on the MSM current affairs I thought; he is correct, that individual dividends to all whanau would not stretch very far, and that like the Police, members are as varied in outlook as the people that make up our Nation

    And, I think the political labelling “maori mafia” is not very helpful; Do the MSM label the Business Round Tables the “capitalist cartels” ?

    I have not heard Darien Fenton utter anything useful in my observations, and Jacinda comes across as “whiny”

    I saw an attitude written on a postcard recently; “Oh well, What shall I complain about today?”;
    Made me stop and reflect, as I do everytime I read personality labels, narcissist, psychopath, sociopath, etc; I revised on this this morning and the presence of these traits in our society reflect the change in Values we have witnessed in our lifetimes, particularly pertaining to the significance of children, as children remain children for increasingly short time-spans these days..and Personality is a construct that varies within people across contexts and time (thankfully)

    Now, having been to the Supermarket, and being the observant chappie that I am, there does appear to be a developing trend for consumers to select more primary whole foods for their trolleys than the sugar and fat laden processed cardboard…round the outside..round the outside

    there are different types of flesh, yet, all flesh is grass.

    if you will, you can become all flame
    -sayings of the desert fathers 103 (that’s where I’m headed, that’s where I belong; sure I do more harm than help occasionally)

    -James Morrison

    • RedLogix 14.1
      22 October 2012 at 4:54 pm

      there does appear to be a developing trend for consumers to select more primary whole foods for their trolleys

      Word is quietly getting around.

      Whole rows I never go down anymore.

      • Rogue Trooper 14.1.1
        22 October 2012 at 5:24 pm

        same. Only costs $40 to feed me for a week (not counting fish and chips)
        protein-beef, lamb or salmon
        green and coloured vegetables
        1 loaf of wholegrain bread
        avocados
        butter.cheese
        vegemite

        changing diet and habits after decades of “modern socialised living” is unsettling though

        I read today that prescriptions for anti-depressants are up 40% in our province over last six years, and my previous GP is an apologist for them; I understand his position, yet, much dis-ease is socio-genic in etiology, and it is just so corrupt that investors are profiting off peoples social misery; that is why I started commenting on this blog, as in Hamlet above; Interestingly, despite their detractors, the socially oriented Christian Churches, amongst other faiths, are labouring at the coal face in very real terms to alleviate the suffering brought about by this government in particular.

        many Christians are not motivated by “increasing” their congregations size or contribution; It is just the power of the gospels; Imagine the Industrial Revolution, Fordism, Modern War and Modern Economic and Political Ideologies without the handbrakes of Judeo-Christian based Values?

        Critics always refer to the “evils” carried out in the name of God; Humans carried out those actions.

        Most people I read or hear who are scathing of faith have no depth of background in philosophy, history, theology or science holistically; The proverbs that guide Christian conduct begin with Wisdom is to Fear God. (that’s why I never debate my faith)
        and the mystery just increases in a comforting way every day.
        God Bless

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1
          22 October 2012 at 6:01 pm

          🙂

        • ropata 14.1.1.2
          22 October 2012 at 6:10 pm

          Sample of the actual religion of our society …
          “Kraft International, especially in developing markets, should continue to realize solid growth as it leverages the Cadbury acquisition and benefits from continued Cadbury cost synergies. The company is likely to realize $300 million of revenue synergies in 2012 by distributing Kraft’s biscuit products in Cadbury outlets in Mexico (approximately 380,000 outlets), distributing Oreo and Tang products in Cadbury outlets (approximately 380,000 outlets) in India and doubling its distribution in Brazil with this acquisition (from 300,000 to 600,000 outlets).”
          – Ashish Sharma, “Kraft Foods: Safe Stock with Upside Potential”, The Motley Fool Blog Network, 13 August 2012

          • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.2.1
            22 October 2012 at 6:32 pm

            The High Priests have spoken. Hallelujah.

            • Jim Nald 14.1.1.2.1.1
              22 October 2012 at 7:22 pm

              When Kraft bought Cadbury (weep for the Quaker brothers, for they had a vision of a socially just society – eg they championed the emerging working class, and boycotted beans from African slavery plantations),

              Kraft was less interested in Cadbury chocolates, but more greedily wanted to grab and control the distribution networks.

  15. Draco T Bastard 15
    22 October 2012 at 5:53 pm

    an interesting opinion piece on Stuff:

    Mana’s solution to abolishing GST is to bring in a financial transaction tax – first mooted by a bunch of Social Credit weirdos driving Skodas and now openly advocated by crazies like the president of France. If you want to know how this much-maligned tax, also known as a “Hone Heke tax”, would work, go to an automatic banking machine. Every time you make a transaction you pay a small fee. If you travel overseas and change money, you also pay a financial transaction tax, except that foreign exchange dealers call it commission. When a bank taxes you on a transaction it’s called responsible financial management. When Hone Harawira suggests that the government do the same, it’s crazy Maori radical activism.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1
      22 October 2012 at 5:59 pm

      Exactly.

      A bank ATM has no problem charging you $1 to withdraw $60 in cash. A 1.7% tax by the bank.

      Most proposed FTT’s are around 1/20 or 1/50 this sum. And of course, that’s because FTT’s are designed to penalise financial speculators who conduct high frequency financial markets trading.

      • Dv 15.1.1
        22 October 2012 at 6:15 pm

        The forgien curreny trade in nz in 2010 averaged 9 billion per day!!

        A tax of 0.1% would raise 90m per day or 36 billion per year

        • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1
          22 October 2012 at 6:19 pm

          Yep. Yet the banks will scream at a 0.1% FTT while they are more than happy to charge you and me a 3% difference when changing NZD into Australian dollars.

          • Dv 15.1.1.1.1
            22 October 2012 at 6:47 pm

            Took me a while , but the TOTAL NZ tax take is expected to be in the order of 55 billion

            So the FTT raising 36billion on foreign currency transactions would get pretty close to removing GST.

            AND if the FTT was applied to all bank transactions, I suspect you MAY be able to remove all direct Tax.

            • Dv 15.1.1.1.1.1
              22 October 2012 at 7:07 pm

              And you woul not need an ird!!

            • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1.1.2
              22 October 2012 at 7:56 pm

              Remember that that is at present levels of transactions which an FTT is likely to decrease.

              • RedLogix …
                22 October 2012 at 8:06 pm

                To be honest I’m a little frustrated that we keep on re-inventing the wheel here. Gareth Morgan has pretty much nailed it … all the essential components of a thorough reform of the tax system are there and he’s done a credible job of crunching the numbers. Why not take it more seriously?

                Is it just because Morgan isn’t perceived as a proper leftie?

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  22 October 2012 at 8:22 pm

                  Damn, now I’m trying to remember if Morgan had an FTT in with his CCT.

                  The thing about our tax system is that it’s had centuries of build up of little fixes. It really needs to be taken back to basics and redesigned completely then give about a years notice that the old rules and precedents are going out and an entirely new system coming in.

              • Dv …
                22 October 2012 at 8:29 pm

                The currency trade transaction would decrease, but ot the internal transactions.

                Does any one know the value of the turnover of money through the banks?

        • Dv 15.1.1.2
          22 October 2012 at 10:21 pm

          Oops 3.6 Billion

    • fatty 15.2
      22 October 2012 at 8:29 pm

      Nice link DTB

    • GregJ 15.3
      22 October 2012 at 9:17 pm

      And it’s not just “Hone and Hollande” but that well known Skoda driver and social anarchist Angela Merkel – as well as finance ministers from 11 Euro zone countries: Eleven euro states back ftt

  16. Penny Bright 16
    22 October 2012 at 9:11 pm

    KIWIS! DON’T BUY INTO THE SELLOFF OF OUR PRECIOUS ELECTRICITY ASSETS!

    PROTEST OUTSIDE MIGHTY RIVER POWER OFFICE!

    ANZ Building 23 -29 Albert St Auckland City

    https://maps.google.co.nz/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=mighty+river+power+auckland&fb=1&gl=nz&hq=mighty+river+power&hnear=0x6d0d47fb5a9ce6fb%3A0x500ef6143a29917%2CAuckland&cid=0%2C0%2C14661661492653781907&ei=Iu-EUM-0La6higfJyoG4Dg&ved=0CGYQ_BIwAQ

    TUESDAY 23 OCTOBER 2012

    12 noon – 2pm

    On Tuesday 23 October 2012 – the Government is planning to consider and approve an Order in Council for Cabinet and the Executive Council to remove Mighty river Power from the State Owned Enterprises Act.

    http://www.johnkey.co.nz/archives/1537-PM-announces-next-steps-for-Mighty-River-sale.html

    UNITE AND FIGHT THE PRIVATISATION OF MIGHTY RIVER POWER BY SWITCHING OFF MERCURY ENERGY!

    http://switchoffmercuryenergy.org/how-to-switch-off-merucry-energy/

    Protest called by Penny Bright, Jax Taylor and James Heremaia from the SWITCH OFF MERCURY ENERGY community group.

  17. prism 17
    22 October 2012 at 9:32 pm

    Voting machine and results scrutiny in the USA for the 2004 election and others by
    blackboxvoting.org definitely show skullduggery. The attitude of all officials involved seems shamelessly casual to me.

    Blackbox have a video recording all that they do. One move was to search for records themselves that had been requested under their information act. The dockets they had been supplied had been recently prepared and they had asked for copies of the signed originals.. So a search at the electoral processing facility brought to light rubbish bags with voting figure dockets signed by the clerks at the time of finalising, and these were being thrown out although by law they should have been held for 22 months I think. At least one docket differed by more than 100 votes from the recently issued one presented to them.

    Let’s not have electronic voting by anyone. And allowing private companies to run this essential government procedure is criminal. Up against the wall and firing squad criminal. That excuse that required information is commercially sensitive is just one of the reasons for not having a bar of private involvement, even contractor help.

    • Colonial Viper 17.1
      22 October 2012 at 11:08 pm

      No electronic voting, no internet voting. If the idea ever comes up in NZ it needs to be sunk once and for all.

      Seriously, these systems are designed to be shit and easy to compromise. You might as well design ATMs to accept random pin numbers.

      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/09/new_diebold_vul.html

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1
        23 October 2012 at 12:15 am

        If the idea ever comes up in NZ it needs to be sunk once and for all.

        It’s a change that’s going to happen and you can’t stop it. The best idea would be to ensure that we don’t use the same system as the US – in other words, engage with the process.

        Make it done by government department rather than private business. Make it OpenSource so that people can actually see it and test it. Make it so that people can check how their vote was recorded and be able to change it if it was recorded incorrectly. Make it a three part entry system using either a security token or the same system that Kiwibank uses. Both systems are nearly impossible to break.

        Online voting paves the way for even more democracy and less corruption. Leaving it as is leaves all the power in the hands of the politicians and their owners.

  18. prism 18
    23 October 2012 at 11:10 am

    DTB

    Online voting paves the way for even more democracy and less corruption. Leaving it as is leaves all the power in the hands of the politicians and their owners.

    I think you are far too optimistic about the use of technology, all these pins and barriers to make the information safe, don’t make it easier and it would become more burdensome for some people than travelling or walking to what should be a nearby polling booth for most.

    And there is the means for computer programmers and companies employing them to make small secret changes that negatively affect the probity of the system and large numbers of voters, and their ability to make decisions as to who is going to assist or constrain their lives. I say again you are too positive. I know programmers who are good people for sure but everybody doesn’t hold to sacred ethics of the highest behaviour. Especially when there is money in it and its hard to uncover.