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Open mike 22/11/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 22nd, 2011 - 138 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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138 comments on “Open mike 22/11/2011 ”

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  1. Bored 1
    22 November 2011 at 6:54 am

    Whilst Key and Goff jibed at one another about how they were going to improve the lot of ordinary NZers last night other events were occuring that will make eithers wishes impossible. Whilst Goff clearly expressed a more cogent and less venal BAU position, BAU just wont be possible.

    Those who watch the markets will have noted that despite the forced casino optomism on Wall St and the money escaping the financial meltdown that is Europe stocks have dipped below the years starting point. Worldwide governments dont have the cash to pay the interest on their bonds, default is going to be the song they sing (or sell state assets a la Key). More importantly the false “recovery” and demand over supply sees oil going back through the $100 mark, that despite consumer demand falling off badly. Indicating there is definitely a lot less able to be pumped. All up the party is well over.

    For us what does it mean? Who ever wins the election is in deep do dos, and Key will answer by selling the silver and locking the chest. A vote for National is a gauranteed way to keep your tax cut, lose your job and to watch your share in NZ sold to your new masters.

    • higherstandard 1.1
      22 November 2011 at 7:59 am

      More so now with the latest comments out of China suggesting that they’ll be looking after their own economy thanks very much and not bailing out the USA or Eu.

      • uke 1.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 8:06 am

        But how is China going to have an economy without Western markets for their niknaks – isn’t global capitalism a big loop?

        • Bored 1.1.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 9:45 am

          Uke and HS both got it right, its a big inter related loop. When one counttry gets a cold the contagion follows.

          • uke 1.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2011 at 10:00 am

            And what is going to happen when China starts “looking after its own” and then the US govt starts defaulting on its China-owned debt (this must become a popular policy there eventually): World War III?

    • Afewknowthetruth 1.2
      22 November 2011 at 8:44 am

      Bored.

      Absolutely right!

      I now prefer the term DAU (disaster as usual) instead of BAU (business as usual) to describe current economic, social and environmental arrangements, though the term BAU will undoubtedly be used for quite a while yet.

      This morning must have been something of a shock to anyone who has heavily invested in DAU, what with the Dow down 2.56% (in numerical terms around what it was in 1999, and in inflation-adjusted terms down by around 70% over the decade); oil down due to the severe demand destruction that is a consequence of collapsing economies; even gold down! (something of a mystery -but then the price is clearly being manipulated): so much ‘hot money’ and nowhere for it to go as so-called investment managers alternate between chasing higher returns and safety. Asia-Pacific markets are in for a bumpy ride.

      Meanwhile, everything that people need to pay for to survive in the NZ province of the global industrial catastrophe just keeps going up -rates, insurance, energy costs, food. And the fall in the Kiwi dollar will result in a surge in prices for most imported goods. Anyone who failed to heed the numerous warnings about establishing a food supply will soon be in deep trouble.

      The entire system, which is predicated on fraudulent creation of money and exploitation of people and resources, hit the wall when global oil extraction hit peak over 2005 to 2008. The Earth has LESS and LESS to give but we still have maniacs in charge who demand MORE and MORE. And an uniformed populace that thinks it is entitled to more and more.

      Since all political parties are offering their own versions of a ‘better, brighter future’ based on various delusions about economic growth we will witness a magnificent COLLISION WITH REALITY which will play out extremely badly for the vast majority of people over the coming year or so. As Dr Colin Cambell (co-founder of ASPO) said many years ago: If you don’t deal with reality reality will deal with you.

      ‘A vote for National is a gauranteed way to keep your tax cut, lose your job and to watch your share in NZ sold to your new masters.’

      I agree on the ‘lose your job’ and ‘watch your share of assets sold to your new masters’ aspects but I suspect people will not keep their tax cuts: any incoming government is likely to raise taxes (either directly or indirectly) to prevent a fairly instantaneous implosion of its finances. And in doing so will cause one. In other words, orthodox economics offers no way out of the hole we are in because orthodox economics is what created the hole we are in.

      • Uturn 1.2.1
        22 November 2011 at 8:48 am

        A while ago you said you realised people were not listening to what you had to say and you turned your attention instead to preparing yourself. What was this preparation?

        • Bored 1.2.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 9:41 am

          Uturn, that is a very pertinent question so a quick answer on behalf of AFKTT:

          1. Quit as much debt as possible, preferably be freehold or low cost rent, kill the credit card.
          2. Learn to live within your means, start substituting wants with real needs.
          3. Learn to trade your skills with others for needs, learn to grow food.

          In other words do what your grandparents did without thinking.

          From a government viewpoint the trick is the same, pay off/ reneg on debt, balance trade accounts, balance tax versus expenditure. And most importantly make sure that the infrastructure required for the new low energy economy is owned by the state, and people trained with real life skills that can be converted into real economic output (as opposed to accounting / lawyering / speculating).

        • Afewknowthetruth 1.2.1.2
          22 November 2011 at 10:17 am

          U.

          1. I got out of the big city I was living in and moved to a small one (couldn’t get to where I wanted to be due to financial constriants).

          2. I established an orchard and started working on improving soil quality for other food production.

          3. I installed some passive solar.

          4. I cut my expenseses. I still have a car but normally only drive about 20km a week. Most of the time I cycle or walk -very unfashionable. I am in the process of disengaging from the consumer society.

          Anyone who has read this:

          http://www.publishme.co.nz/shop/theeasyway-p-684.html

          will understand exactly where we are headed and what to do.

          • Uturn 1.2.1.2.1
            22 November 2011 at 11:35 am

            Thanks, Bored and AFKTT. Apart from establising an orchard, seems we’ve arrived at the same conclusions from different approaches. My route has been a bit less organised – I followed my nose along a trail of things that either looked right or wrong when compared to the reality of the life I’d lived. I left the country to come back to the city for financial reasons. Co-incidentally my country skills – or what Bored refers to as grandparent skills – naturally recreated what they knew worked, in an urban environment.

            There is a serious flaw to this existence as far as prescribing it to others goes, that I’m sure you are aware of, though. There is no way urban environments can support the density of population, without major shifts in the idea of land use and ownership. Sure urban and community gardens are a good start to get people thinking in a larger perspective, but eventually the limitations will be clear. It’s a domino effect of enlightenment for people who begin thinking and reality isn’t appeased by a few potatoes growing in a bag on the balcony. This is just one of many problems.

            While I could shoot back out to the country and dig in, I plan to stick it out here a while longer and see what happens and what practical solutions emerge for the urban question. There may be none. Urban people are strange (no offence intended) or should I say their actions display a wildly different perspective to mine. While Vege World, The Aussie Butcher and the supermarket exist and while credit is being plied, few will understand that working 9-5 in an office and paying your taxes isn’t the “real world” at all. Bridging the gap is a challenge in the extreme, but then nothing is easy. Realism says there is no point, I’ll wait a while longer for a miracle. Best of luck to you both with your plans.

          • Ben 1.2.1.2.2
            22 November 2011 at 12:12 pm

            I’ve seen a lot of people write Kevin Moore’s views off as insanity, but having now read (all of) The Easy Way, it’s clear the statements are based on fact and the conclusions are solid.

            I was disappointed that he invoked the controversy over 9/11 in support of his arguments. Not because I think the “official story” is correct – I don’t, far from it – but because in the minds of many this will automatically put Moore in the “tinfoil hat” category, and the rest of the book will be tarred with that brush.

            But I do see his points, and I do agree that everything is going to turn to shit – possibly not as soon as he makes out (society does have the ability to adjust to a degree), but over time, it’s obvious that that’s how things will go. I’ve given the book to friends of mine to read, and some of them have said “yes but technology and innovation will get us out of it, don’t worry.” Let’s say they have much more faith in that than I do.

            I plan to start some preparations myself, although I’m now locked into a mortgage on an asset with declining value, which makes things difficult – and makes me a slave. Thankfully that’s the only debt I have, and I have a small amount of land on which to “experiment” with growing my own veges etc. Ideally, though, I’d like to get some land out the back-end of nowhere and set myself up permanently before dropping off the grid.

            So much easier said than done, though. And that’s the way “they” want it.

          • McFlock 1.2.1.2.3
            22 November 2011 at 12:13 pm

            I do believe those are the first specific courses of action I’ve seen you advocate here.

            They seem fairly reasonable. I was half-imagining you sitting in a fallout shelter in the wilderness.

          • Jenny 1.2.1.2.4
            22 November 2011 at 4:32 pm

            1. I got out of the big city I was living in and moved to a small one (couldn’t get to where I wanted to be due to financial constriants).

            2. I established an orchard and started working on improving soil quality for other food production.

            3. I installed some passive solar.

            Afewknowthetruth

            AFKTT it is all very commendable the measures you have taken, to protect your family’s future.

            I don’t think your efforts will be enough. The collapse threatens to be so vast and all encompassing that individualistic solutions will be crushed and swept aside, along with everything else.

            For the vast majority of the population, (here and overseas), who don’t have the luxury of being able to buy even the smallest viable landholding out in the country, one way or another we will not take the DAU lying down.

            This may sound ominous and threatening to some, but for more than A Few of us, we have not completely given up on civil society just yet.

            There is still hope for a genuine democratically decided – ‘best outcome’, for the greatest number.

            Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou, Ake! Ake! Ake!

            • Bored 1.2.1.2.4.1
              22 November 2011 at 4:53 pm

              I like “we have not completely given up on civil society just yet. There is still hope for a genuine democratically decided – ‘best outcome’, for the greatest number.”

              What I suspect will happen is that if the current democratic institutions fail to meet muster new democratic institutions that are fit for purpose will replace them. And I cant quite see the established property based interests playing ball nicely, they are likely to be the first to eject popular democracy as too injurious to their privileges. Forceful ejection may be required. To quote Cromwell, “You have sat too long for all the good that you have done. Begone.”

          • Macro 1.2.1.2.5
            22 November 2011 at 4:49 pm

            Bored, afktt, U
            Much the same here.
            I have downsized from 17 acres to 1/4 acre and moved to a small coastal town where I no longer have to travel to do the things I enjoy. I now enjoy a much better lifestyle. Much better food, and a farmers market where I get to meet and know the people who grow the food I am unable to.
            Like you I watch the machinations of DAU (I like that and shall steal it! 🙂 ) with increasing dismay as the greed of the players pushes the world towards the collapse of civilisation as it is now perceived. What the world will be like when my grandchildren are of age I shudder o think.

  2. Jan 2
    22 November 2011 at 6:57 am

    The creation of New Zealand’s Cooperative Bank – the PSIS has registered as a bank – has gone unremarked here so far.

    http://www.psis.co.nz

    Moving your accounts to a NZ owned bank such as Kiwi Bank, the TSB or the Cooperative Bank is one of the few direct and painless ways to impact New Zealand’s private indebtedness. David Cunliffe has identified that $2.5 billion leaves the New Zealand economy each year in profits to Australian banks.

    http://www.wanganuichronicle.co.nz/news/tax-changes-make-sense-says-labour/1113674/

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1
      22 November 2011 at 3:07 pm

      The more people who stop using foreign owned banks the better. Foreign ownership of our businesses is bad for our economy and our society.

      • Ianupnorth 2.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 3:13 pm

        I had a spell with Kiwibank and found the whole process terrible (sorry). The customer service was very poor, so much so they managed to forget to pay the ASB the mortgage money for our home when we were transferring to Kiwibank.

        It took several calls to the banking ombudsman to sort the issue – did the one year fixed rate and promptly went back to the original provider, who is sadly Aussie owned.

        • Macro 2.1.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 4:55 pm

          I have had an account with TSB for years – and never had any problems – even though I live well away from New Plymouth and have visited there only once in the past 40+ years. They are only a free phone call away if I need to speak to someone and everything else is done online or occassional deposit thru a Postshop.

          • joe90 2.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2011 at 11:29 pm

            Using Kiwibank for a business account, great service, but they seem very risk averse in their lending so I doubt I’d try to finance anything through them.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2
          22 November 2011 at 11:22 pm

          I had a spell with Kiwibank and found the whole process terrible (sorry).

          When? I know when they first opened they were a… little immature I suppose would be the best description. They seem to have gotten better since my first opening of an account there.

          • rosy 2.1.1.2.1
            22 November 2011 at 11:55 pm

            They seem to have gotten better since my first opening of an account there

            They have. I opened a business account there when they first started and it was underwhelming, but improved as time went on. A few years ago I started some personal banking with them and it’s fine – easily as good as other banks I’ve used. But yeah, Joe90 is right about being risk averse… however given the banking meltdown in the last few years that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

  3. mickysavage 3
    22 November 2011 at 7:04 am

    To all Epsom voters.

    Want to substantially reduce hypocricy in politics? Want to rid Parliament of a collection of mysoginists, liars and supposed perk busters who instead have feasted in the public trough? Want to get rid of a party that harboured in its ranks an MP who had previously stole the identity of a dead baby?

    Then vote Paul Goldsmith as MP for Epsom! (Feck did I just say that?)

  4. Carol 4
    22 November 2011 at 7:18 am

    Why have I got an email invitation latish last night from Mediaworks to answer a survey so they “can better tailor our prizes, content and advertising mix to your preferences.”?

    I am not aware of having registerd at any of their websites, and the email went to an address that I don’t use on website forums, logins etc.

    • felix 4.1
      22 November 2011 at 7:48 am

      Wondering the same thing, Carol.

    • Uturn 4.2
      22 November 2011 at 8:09 am

      Could be youtube. If you view youtube while signed into gmail their tracking system has your information and now shares it. I see that they are pushing advertising by making a viewer answer a survey question before they allow the chosen video to play. So much for the much espoused online freedom. Looks like the internet will eventually collapse under the wieght of it’s own self interest.

      • kriswgtn 4.2.1
        22 November 2011 at 8:34 am

        or u could use Orbit downloader to download the ackshull video u want to watch

      • felix 4.2.2
        22 November 2011 at 9:30 am

        Eh? What’s the connection between Mediaworks and Google/Youtube?

        • kriswgtn 4.2.2.1
          22 November 2011 at 10:18 am

          Skynet bro skynet

        • Uturn 4.2.2.2
          22 November 2011 at 11:45 am

          Youtube assigns advertising to match your location – you won’t get American ad’s if you dial in from Auckland. The questions you answer to view are collated for NZ advertisers, not Americans or anyone else. Mediaworks are just one client. Youtube knows your email address if you visit there while you are signed into your Google account/blogger or anything else Google owned. If you have forwarding enabled on your gmail, your other email addresses will be accessible. If you back up your Google password with an alternative email address or a phone number, you hand over that information. They ask you for backups for security reasons, but money gets the last word. It’s just Google walking in Facebook’s shoes, one step behind to stay legal, but still unethical.

    • Vicky32 4.3
      22 November 2011 at 6:32 pm

      “Why have I got an email invitation latish last night from Mediaworks to answer a survey so they “can better tailor our prizes, content and advertising mix to your preferences.”?”

      I got the same thing! I did wonder if I had signed up at one stage, but on reflection I am sure I didn’t…

  5. ianmac 5
    22 November 2011 at 8:04 am

    Did you answer? Be interesting to look for “curious” questions. Go through the questions but quit before final send.

    • Carol 5.1
      22 November 2011 at 8:32 am

      Good idea, ianmac. Answered with BS selections till I got to the agree to terms and conditions page. Just a lot of question about household, job, income, credit/loyalty cards, hobbies, cars/transport, TV and Internet use…. sky, pay per viewing….

      All these companies asking us to complete surveys should be more honest…. it’s not to make things better for customers so much, as ultimately being about increasing or maintaining their profits. Mediaworks is offering entering a draw for prizes for completing the survey. We should send them an invoice for helping their business.

      • Vicky32 5.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 6:37 pm

        “Just a lot of question about household, job, income, credit/loyalty cards, hobbies, cars/transport, TV and Internet use…. sky, pay per viewing….”

        Interestingly, the survey assumes that you *do* in fact watch TV 3 and 4 on demand, something I have never done. I don’t watch TV3 at all, but for the news, which I have watched only twice in the past 7 weeks! It also assumes that you do want pay per view, and gives no options such as “I’d sooner crawl over broken glass”. I don’t watch American programming, although Prime is the only way to avoid it.

  6. lprent 6
    22 November 2011 at 8:36 am

    I will turn back on the comment auto remember of names, emails, and websites as well as the wsiwyg comment editor. These all have problems with the cache system I had to put on last night to cope with the load after the debate.

    These will all move to using client side JavaScript, which has problems with a few people’s systems, but works with the majority. It doesn’t have issues with cached names and preferences for other people being sent from the server. The code was written and tested last year so I just have to extract it from subversion.

    I have the next couple of days off from work so I can help with eDay stuff for several electorates. So this will be lower on the priority list than that.

    If you want to avoid all of this, then register and use a login (or just use a login if you have one already). That serves up pages for each logged in user individually.

  7. Pete George 7
    22 November 2011 at 9:02 am

    Goff’s dilemma highlighted by the debate:
    – Peters says he won’t go into goverment with anyone
    – Labour has to have NZF support to have any chance of leading a coalition
    – Goff needs Peters to go against his word to have any chance of going into government

    Another Peters post election betrayal is Goff’s only chance.

    • freedom 7.1
      22 November 2011 at 9:17 am

      As Goff said numerous times last night, the Election has not happened yet,
      Maybe we wait for the Voters to present the actual situation,
      then you can have your aneurism

      • Pete George 7.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 9:55 am

        Before they present the situation voters need to evaluate the likely possibilities and decide.

        Labour almost certainly would need NZ First to govern, which means Peters would need to exchange his word for baubles.

        • freedom 7.1.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 12:49 pm

          or you could try thinking for yourself and ignore the propoganda of manipulative politicians whose self interested actions show up the hypocrisy of every single agreement ever made under MMP.
          Let us vote, then let us have MMP for once.

          If it really does not deliver a better government FOR ALL NEW ZEALANDERS
          then go ahead and have your manipulative agreements, your delusional bindings of confidence and supply, your saccharine soaked empty phrases that mean less than the good behaviour promises of a toddler at Christmas.

          Voters have asked for MMP , let them see how it might actually work, just once.
          Dump the defacto FPP and let NZ have a representative parliament that they voted for.

          • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2011 at 3:19 pm

            Dump the defacto FPP and let NZ have a representative parliament that they voted for.

            Bingo.

            There really shouldn’t be a “government” there should just be parliament with the whole lot voting on policy based upon the facts. Would probably need to vote in the president separate of the general election if we got that though.

    • wtl 7.2
      22 November 2011 at 9:23 am

      I remember in the past you lamenting the ‘negative’ approach of Labour, but it seems to me that you are being very negative about Goff (and Peters) in your recent comments. Perhaps you should take your own advice and take a positive approach in getting support for UF?

      When it comes down to it, it is starting to get a bit pointless to speculate about possible governments. Let’s all just wait until Saturday and see what the numbers are.

    • felix 7.3
      22 November 2011 at 9:27 am

      Haha.

      UF’s dilemma:
      – Dunne has unequivocally hitched his star to Key
      – Key’s a phoney and a lightweight with nothing left in the tank
      – People seem to be noticing that they’ve been sold a bill of goods

      lolz

      • Pete george 7.3.1
        22 November 2011 at 9:37 am

        Except that:
        – a majority people disagree with you about Key
        – National have proven to be a reliable government (mostly) through an exceptionally difficult term, and
        – UF has proven to be a reliable contributior to government.

        • felix 7.3.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 10:05 am

          pfft.

          – We’ll see
          – Difficult because the government has no interest in governing
          – UF has proven to be a sinecure for Dunne and Ohariu has had enough of it.

        • kriswgtn 7.3.1.2
          22 November 2011 at 10:20 am

          go and peddle your bullshit somewhere else trollwhore

          your endless crap today is pissing me off

        • Afewknowthetruth 7.3.1.3
          22 November 2011 at 10:28 am

          PG

          Disunited No-future has never been anying other than a bunch of opportunistic clowns who are completely disconneced from reality and have nothing to offer.

          ‘UF has proven to be a reliable contributior to government’

          Have been a reliable contributor to wrecking the next generation’s future via Disaster As Usual economics.

          And that’s what UF are offering this time round, is it not?

          • Ben 7.3.1.3.1
            22 November 2011 at 12:43 pm

            We in the Ohariu electorate recently received a pamphlet from Peter Dunne. Unfortunately I threw it out or I’d link a picture, but it had absolutely no policy information: Just a bunch of quotes from various people and publications about how wonderful Peter Dunne is.

            Pretty sure you could haul-up similar information from sympathetic sources on practically any MP you like.

            Let’s not forget National are all about shrinking the public service, and the Ohariu electorate has the highest percentage of public service workers in the country. And they’re not stupid: They know a vote for Dunne is a vote for Key, and I’d bet they’re not willing to risk losing their jobs so The Hair can make a return to parliament.

            Policy evidently isn’t all that important to United Future. And why would it be? UF has thrown its lot in with National whose policies are deeply unpopular. If Bill English was leader of the Nats they wouldn’t have a hope in hell at this election with the policies they have. It’s entirely reliant on Brand Key. And Peter Dunne isn’t closely enough associated with Brand Key to get the votes he needs, so he’s got to rely on bullshit quotes of positive opinion from whatever source he find.

            Scraping the bottom of the barrel, eh?

            • Pete George 7.3.1.3.1.1
              22 November 2011 at 1:10 pm

              The United Future pamphlet doesn’t fit that decription at all. It details four key policies:
              – reform tax for middle income families
              – a sensible super scheme with choice of age (Labour said they are considering this)
              – access to all New Zealanders to our outdoors
              – limit asset sales

              There is no excuse to be ignorant of it, there is plenty of detail on the website, on vote.co.nz and UF policy is being detailed and compared on many media election sites. Saying there is no policy evident is blatant misrepresentation or deliberate lies.

              There is more chance of United Future policy being implemented next term than Labour policy, Mana policy, NZF policy and Green policy.

              • Ben …
                22 November 2011 at 1:28 pm

                We’re definitely not talking about the same pamphlet then. This particular pamphlet was clearly campaigning for the electorate seat, so it may not have gone out to all electorates.

                I love how you respond to me telling me I have “no excuses” to be ignorant of UF policy, Pete, but don’t touch with a barge pole my many other comments about the hollowness of the party and their leader.

                Choosing your arguments is all well and good, but what you choose to remain silent on says much more about UF and their “Fairness and Choice (as long as you’re like us and do what we want you to)” policies than the points you choose to argue.

                I note, however, that UF’s flagship Income Sharing tax policy – which can be found at http://www.unitedfuture.org.nz/assets/Income%20Sharing.pdf – goes into no detail whatsoever about how the scheme would be funded. If you’re going to tax (your definition of) families less, who’s picking up the tab for that?

                • Lanthanide …
                  22 November 2011 at 5:32 pm

                  Key’s already ruled out more tax cuts anyway.

                  I don’t know who UF thinks they’re kidding with this income splitting for taxation purposes.

              • Ianupnorth …
                22 November 2011 at 3:17 pm

                I don’t know if you saw my question to you the other day – at number 8 in the UF list, what percentage of vote would be needed to get you into parliament?

              • Draco T Bastard …
                22 November 2011 at 3:34 pm

                reform tax for middle income families

                Wrong, it’s more tax reform for the rich. Their income splitting will only benefit the rich exactly the same as the tax cuts that NAct put through. Nobody else will be better off.

                a sensible super scheme with choice of age

                Sensible would be one that worked and this one won’t. Neither will Labours’. You need resources to be able to maintain society and all parties are all about using up the resources ASAP so that we can have more piles of nothing money.

                access to all New Zealanders to our outdoors

                And what, exactly, does that mean?
                I can already go outdoors, I can go to the beach and the stream. Probably can’t eat the shellfish or go swimming in the stream though as they’ve either been poisoned by industrialism/farming or over fished. Thing is, I’m sure UF is one of those parties that want to continue the destructive ways (more industrialism, farming and over fishing) that have been built up over the last few centuries and are now brining us to an anthropogenic Extinction Level Event.

                limit asset sales

                Rather than doing the rational thing and opposing asset sales altogether. Why would anyone want to vote for a party that is obviously insane?

                • Herodotus …
                  22 November 2011 at 4:13 pm

                  DTB could not agree with you re income splitting. Lab has been at pains regarding “A fairer tax” yet how is it that IRD regard the calc of tax by the individual and welfare/benefits by family unit. So what for all those families that have made sacrifices to enable a stay at home parent (Many actively involved in NPO and child care/school help that the community and society benefit from). How is it fair on these family units? Taxed to the max.
                  And your concern regarding only benefiting the rich is a lazy generalisation, that if such a concerns exists can be managed by placing a limit on the amount to be split. It is not difficult to manage, just needs a little will power.
                  Yet in the handout Lab is campaiging for the choice (with govt financial assistance) for this same position of allowing parents to stay at home, pity the sentiment is not made regarding poor and middle class families as well.
                  http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2011/11/labour-is-the-nasty-party-ctd-19/

            • Anne 7.3.1.3.1.2
              22 November 2011 at 6:50 pm

              There is one word to describe United Future and – dare I say it – all of it’s supporters, and it’s… beige.

          • Colonial Viper 7.3.1.3.2
            22 November 2011 at 3:49 pm

            I’ve done my little bit to help Charles smash Dunne this year. Fingers crossed.

        • mik e 7.3.1.4
          22 November 2011 at 4:49 pm

          Peter dunne has been in coalition with Wiston Peters twice now
          People voting with their feet record numbers leave for Australia

        • Mark 7.3.1.5
          22 November 2011 at 5:04 pm

          Anyone else been to that OnTheFence.co.nz website? Seems to be giving an interesting bias – this from Twitter:

          – John: Did that stupid on the fence thing. United Future 88%? WHAT AND MANA?. GET OUT.
          – Charlotte Yee: LOL just did onthefence.co.nz I think it’s rigged my “top 3 parties” are labour, united future and mana… #really?
          – Beth: I did that dumb on the fence sheep game and I got 19% United Future as my top match.
          – Naly_D: according to http://onthefence.co.nz my best-suited political party is United Future (20%). Because, y’know, I’m 50.
          – l•x•ndr•: @lethifolds I’ll be surprised if you don’t get told to vote for United Future lolol prove me wrong
          – NICOLE C: @Naly_D I got 50% United Future …. Could it be bias ahaha
          – Michael Parry: Has anyone got a result other than United Future on onthefence.co.nz ????
          – Moata Tamaira @Michael_J_Parry @librarykris I got United Future too…which I found a bit odd.
          – Lisa Rapley: @Naly_D I got united future too, then Labour then Mana. I just don’t even…
          – Katherine Chisholm: Just played http://onthefence.co.nz. Where did United Future come from??
          – Frazer Skinner: @Naly_D Who published the site? UF 97%, Labour 55%, Mana 39% Um.. no thanks

          Does everyone secretly love United Future or is there something else in play here?

          • Lanthanide 7.3.1.5.1
            22 November 2011 at 5:41 pm

            Haha, I did it, got a bit bored so exited early.

            Apparently my top 3 choices are UF at 5%, Labour and Greens at 2%.

            Considering I answered almost all left-leaning on every single question…

          • joe90 7.3.1.5.2
            22 November 2011 at 10:40 pm

            Me too, got bored so completed less than half of the topics and scored 11% towards UF so I’d say the site is a jack up by United Follicular.

        • seeker 7.3.1.6
          22 November 2011 at 11:12 pm

          @Pete G 9.37am

          “National have proven to be a reliable government….”. for whom – themselves???

          UF is a ‘thin- ice skating on’ party. What a strange party to choose to represent Pete G.- and even worse, by choosing them, have to support National just to get into office ( only this time hopefully not). There must be a better way to spend your life????

  8. kriswgtn 8
    22 November 2011 at 10:16 am

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/school-faces-closure-after-funding-change-4555829

    This is the school that Key used before the 2008 election…. They even made a dvd here blah blah blah

    Now theyre closing it.It costs $150k a year to keep running.

    85 % success rate for troubled kids

    Awesome coverage last night before the leaders debate on the news but has obviously been overlooked

    Im disgusted places like this will be forced to close

    I have a nephew in Christchurch who attends a school like this and theyre also facing the chop

    He has come so far and all the hard work will be in vain

    Enough is a fuking nuff

    This pissass bunch called National doint give a fuck about anyone but their tory assed schools and mates

    • marsman 8.1
      22 November 2011 at 11:11 am

      The Peoples Union Health clinic in Newtown, Wellington is facing closure, the DHB is going to take $300,000 of funding away from them. This is a vital service for poor people, refugees, new immigrants. Tony Ryall promised no front line cuts in Health, but of course he’s a liar like the rest of that grubby pack of plunderers.

  9. Afewknowthetruth 9
    22 November 2011 at 10:42 am

    The implosion of the US continues unabated but the elites hope to delay the day of reckoning by a year.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/21/us-automatic-cuts-supercommittee-defeat

    Meanwhile Spain gets into deeper trouble

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/21/mariano-rajoy-spain-debt-crisis

    There really are too many crises to fit on one page these days.

    One thing is for sure: as everything gets worse the blame game will escalate.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/nov/21/gloomy-britons-blame-labour-poll

  10. randal 10
    22 November 2011 at 10:57 am

    I am getting freaked out by all the greaseballs on Teevee who think they and only they know the outcome of the election before it has been held.
    especially gluon and the dunnycan.
    how did New Zealand end up with these manques?

  12. randal 12
    22 November 2011 at 12:07 pm

    newsflash: beenit preparing legislation so all beneficiaries will be told not only how to spend their money but who to vote for.
    you heard it hear first.

  13. freedom 13
    22 November 2011 at 12:36 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10765223

    that graphic is hilarious. Labour drops 1/2% and loses two of their little red guys. National lose 5% yet don’t lose one of the little blue guys.
    Classy stuff by the Herald ! I think not.
    A few days of almost being balanced, now back on regular form.

    • Jim Nald 13.1
      22 November 2011 at 12:47 pm

      Left-leaning voters should take that as an added incentive to step out, go to the Ballot Box and correct the tory lies perpetrated by the media.

      • freedom 13.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 12:56 pm

        just had a long FB debate with an ‘undecided but leaning to National’ voter who despite admitting they don’t know much about the other parties believes john key will back down on Asset Sales as people don’t want them!

        How do you combat a mindset that deluded.?

        • Jim Nald 13.1.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 1:10 pm

          If John Key wanted to back down on asset sales, he would have done it months or weeks ago before the height of the campaign now. He could have taken out a major aggravating factor to his campaign to cement his hold for the second term.

          The reality is he will go the whole hog with asset sales because he is there precisely to advance that agenda to shift the assets and more wealth to his cronies, the puppet masters and himself.

          • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2011 at 4:10 pm

            The reality is he will go the whole hog with asset sales because he is there precisely to advance that agenda to shift the assets and more wealth to his cronies, the puppet masters and himself.

            Yep and I’m reasonable certain that they’ll go for 100% sales as well because 49% won’t raise enough (note that Blinglish is reported to have said that they won’t raise as much as expected).

          • seeker 13.1.1.1.2
            22 November 2011 at 11:28 pm

            “The reality is he will go the whole hog with asset sales because he is there precisely to advance that agenda to shift the assets and more wealth to his cronies, the puppet masters and himself.”

            Exactly Jim N. There can be no other reason for him to sell and risk losing his precious position(even if he eventually wants to go to Hawaii) as very few Kiwis want him to sell. He has been told to ‘asset strip’ in NZ. Wonder who he is working for , ‘cos it sure ain’t New Zealand.

        • Ianupnorth 13.1.1.2
          22 November 2011 at 3:18 pm

          Cyanide or 1080

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.3
          22 November 2011 at 4:08 pm

          How do you combat a mindset that deluded?

          Fucked if I know. Just had a conversation where the RWNJ (there really is no other description) argued that having less than 40% of the vote (National government in several FPP elections) was democratic and that MMP, where majority actually had their say, was undemocratic.

          • ropata 13.1.1.3.1
            22 November 2011 at 11:24 pm

            It’s the mindset of the comfortably self-satisfied “I’ve got mine, and screw the rest”.
            Anything that secures an endless inflation of property, rentals, and less wealth to the lower classes.

            Banks – in his own words

            As ugly as it sounds, the prospect that Banks will ‘defend’ the good white wealthy folk of Epsom from sex crazed unemployed polynesian drug addicts probably resonates with a significant portion of voters in that electorate. There does seem to be a a nasty racist streak running through a large chunk of the New Zealand population, one that Brash flirted with in his Hollowman ‘Iwi/Kiwi’ Orewa speech , the same one that Banks and Peters exploited with their antiAsian rants during the 90s (somewhere ’round that time anyway.)

            Conversely:

            allowing young men to work for finance companies or as money traders is a failure- criminality, sucking off the suffering of ordinary people, forcing thousands into unemployment, greed, psychopathic behaviour. It’s time it stopped!

    • Lanthanide 13.2
      22 November 2011 at 5:43 pm

      Christian Heritage aren’t even a registered party to contest the election. Why are they in the poll?

  14. In Vino Veritas 14
    22 November 2011 at 1:29 pm

    I note that another socialist government in Europe has been consigned to history. The Spanish Socialist party plummeted from 169 seats to 110, their lowest ever representation whilst the conservative Popular Party went from 154 to 186 seats, giving them an absolute majority.
    During the last 7 years of socialism, unemployment has reached heights greater than during any previous crisis, with the rate reaching 21.5% in October.

    • joe90 14.1
      22 November 2011 at 2:17 pm

      Spain has elected a career politician, who in a previous government failed spectacularly, with a reputation for playing favourites and has failed to articulate any clear plan to voters about how he’ll handle a faltering economy.

      http://www.thebadrash.com/2011/11/19/spain-elections-the-view-from-the-edge-of-the-precipice/

      The prospect of seeing the PP in power again after 8 years is not a happy one. While I’m no fan of the PSOE (I think I called them ‘the very worst party in Spain’ at one point, though I can’t find a link), my suspicion is that before long many who loathe the Socialists will remember how much more they loathed the PP last time they governed.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.2
      22 November 2011 at 4:17 pm

      Such reminds me of the 1990 election here. The majority were really pissed off with Labour and so National got back in power but the truth is that nobody wanted National either it’s just that there wasn’t a whole lot of choice.

      The socialists were doing the austerity that the Spaniards didn’t want and the new party is going to do the same thing. They’ll try to vote them (PP) out next term but, again, they won’t actually get any choice as to what actually happens in their country.

      • Chris 14.2.1
        22 November 2011 at 8:30 pm

        To be honest that’s what I reckon is happening in this election. No one really wants National even many National supporters aren’t particularly happy with them they just don’t see much choice.

        That’s basically why I don’t think Labour’s strategy of attacking National has been a good one. Noone is that stoked with National anyway but just attacking doesn’t automatically make you the viable alternative.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 11:26 pm

          Labour released policy, costings and a vision for the future and then pointed out that National weren’t doing too well in the trust. Breaking promises, ruling for the few at the top and not addressing the problems that the GFC had caused.

          I think it’s hit home for a lot of people – now just need them to vote.

          • Chris 14.2.1.1.1
            23 November 2011 at 6:29 pm

            Not sure anyone goes back and looks at prior days open mikes but oh well.

            I agree Labour have released policy – it was even policy that many people prefered to Nationals. However they have chosen to not really focus on their own policy instead their entire campaign has been based on attacking National and its policy.

            It’s a valid strategy but I can’t help thinking that had they actually done what they originally said they were going to do and keep the election about the policy (but make it about their policies not Nationals) they would have done a lot better (and I mean that whatever the outcome of the election).

            Obviously its a moot argument but still I think it would’ve made it a lot more interesting.

    • mik e 14.3
      22 November 2011 at 10:50 pm

      Ivvy leaguer Italy France and Germany are going democratic socialist .Spain has always had higher unemployment than northern European countries, more corruption in southern European countries and no one pays tax .

  15. Deuto 15
    22 November 2011 at 1:38 pm

    The Ambrose court hearing is underway and the Listener’s Election blog is providing tweets from Derek Ching on what is happening if anyone is interested

    http://www.listener.co.nz/nz-election-2011-live/tuesday-22-november/

    Wonderful cartoon at the top of the page!

    Disclaimer – know I have referred to this blog several times of late – no connections at all. I am just finding it a useful site to quickly keep up to date on what is happening throughout the day. Their take on last night’s debate is also interesting and entertaining. Link is in the right had column of the above link. Wish I had found their Bingo cards before last night!

  16. Jim Nald 16
    22 November 2011 at 2:10 pm

    Feng Shui Master has just said celestial line-up and his divination point to increasing NZ crises and difficulties associated with astrological castings done on John Key.

    An anology was also given about Key that he is like rot behind the walls at homes.

  18. Jenny 18
    22 November 2011 at 3:58 pm

    A call for international solidarity with protests in Egypt

    MENA Solidarity Network (Solidarity with workers in the Middle East)

    The Arab Spring hangs in balance, as protesters in Cairo’s Tahrir Square and in other cities in Egypt battle the riot police of the ruling Egyptian military junta.

    Hundreds of thousands of protesters are braving tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannon and live ammunition in demonstrations against the ruling military council in Egypt.

    Despite promising elections, (which are being continually put back), Mubarak’s generals are demanding that the military have power above any elected civilian authority. Meanwhile protesters are still being tried in military courts and torture by the military and police is still routine.

    By late on 20 November there were an estimated 100,000 in Tahrir Square according to eyewitness accounts and thousands protesting in every major city in Egypt. Their demands are clear: the downfall of Marshal Tantawi and Mubarak’s generals. As of Sunday 5 people at least had been killed and around 1000 injured.

    The Egyptian Federation of Independent Trade Unions issued a call on Saturday 19 November to its 1.4 million members in affiliated unions to join the protests in Tahrir.

    Our brothers and sisters in Egypt inspired us all with their courage over the past ten months. Without them, would we have seen the Occupy movement? How would our own struggles against austerity and cuts look without the model of the Egyptian revolution, and the knowledge that ordinary people can change the world?

    If the Arab Spring is crushed in Egypt…..

    …..the military rulers of Syria will be strengthened in their slaughter of unarmed protesters.

    If the Arab Spring is crushed in Egypt…….

    ……. it will be major setback for the Arab Spring throughout the Middle East!

    If the Arab Spring is crushed in the Middle East……

    …… this will remove a major brake on the West’s move to war against Iran.

    If the Arab Spring is crushed in the Middle East, major conflagration with Iran will be inevitable, as the US and Israel’s invasion plans can only succeed with the support of compliant Western backed right wing regimes retaining power in the Middle East.

    If the Arab Spring is crushed in Egypt, the movement for democracy and against tyranny and war and recession, throughout the world, will suffer a major setback.

    Responding to appeals from Egyptian activists, Middle East and North Africa, Solidarity in Britain is forwarding the following call for international solidarity action to the whole world. Please respond immediately.

    Tahrir has inspired a wave of movements around the world. We must not let it go down to defeat!

    If you are organising a protest or a picket, particularly if you can mobilise support from the trade union movement in solidarity with the call from the Egyptian Federation of Independent Trade Unions, please let the world know.

    Email menasolidarity@gmail.com.

    MENA will list as many protests as they can.

    Send pictures and they will publish them too.

    • Afewknowthetruth 18.1
      22 November 2011 at 4:26 pm

      Many people interpret the times we are living in as Biblical ‘End Times’.

      Irrespective of that, there is no question that the entire North Africa-Middle East region is a tinderbox awaiting a spark.

      I see that the war-of-words over Iran has started again, after a period of relative quiet. An attack on Iran would almost certainly bring the global economic system to a halt in a matter of weeks if it resulted in blockage of the Straits of Hormuz.

      We need to be prepared for almost anything.

      • Vicky32 18.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 6:57 pm

        “Many people interpret the times we are living in as Biblical ‘End Times’.”

        Interestingly, a good 50% of my ESOL students (Chinese, secular and 17-20 years old) believe something similar. The topic today was sports, and when I said brightly “The next Olympics will be held in London in 2012”, a couple of them said “But the world is going to end in 2012!” I was gobsmacked. Where has this come from?

        • mac1 18.1.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 9:56 pm

          The religious channels in SKY TV when I surf through them often are on the topic of end times- earthquakes, tsunamis, “it seems that the world is crying out to be delivered.”

          It is a sign of narcissism, I believe, that people believe that the end times are going to come in their life-time. It seems part of the conservative psyche.

          History is littered with such false prophecy. I often imagine, when engaged in this topic, the Monty Pythonesque dialogue of disgruntled failed end-timers coming down off the mountain top muttering about their leader who got it wrong.

          A bit like the Nats on Sunday really…………

  19. Afewknowthetruth 19
    22 November 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Ben

    ‘I’ve seen a lot of people write Kevin Moore’s views off as insanity, but having now read (all of) The Easy Way, it’s clear the statements are based on fact and the conclusions are solid.’

    ‘will automatically put Moore in the “tinfoil hat” category’

    It is a lot easier for people to dimiss arguments without checking the facts than to do the necessary research and present logical arguments. We are now at the stage of witnessing people self-select for learning the hard way (or even perishing).

    It will be very interesting to revue this ‘conversation’ one year from now.

    Several years ago I likened the situation in most western societies to tossing a coin. At the moment it always lands with the face that shows ‘complacency and denial’ exposed. One day it will land with the obverse face exposed. That says: ‘panic’.

    .

  20. Jenny 20
    22 November 2011 at 4:49 pm

    We need to be prepared for almost anything.

    That’s for sure.

  22. joe90 22
    22 November 2011 at 5:10 pm

    Anything they can do we can do too.

    Some parents have been branded abusers because of the bizarre names of their children.

    Family Court Judge Rob Murfitt stated his concerns in a written decision after a custody hearing in New Plymouth revealed a couple had named their child Talula Does The Hula From Hawaii.

    He was so disturbed at the effect on the nine-year-old that he ordered her temporarily placed under court guardianship so a suitable name could be chosen.

    More loons.

    • Sookie 23.1
      22 November 2011 at 10:04 pm

      LOL- ‘Follow Me on Twat’. Excellent work as always.

      I expect RWNJ’s burst a few blood vessels watching that Child Poverty doco tonight. It was basically a giant ad for ‘Commie Pinko’ politics. Full of ads for Labour and the Greens too 🙂

  24. Lazy Susan 24
    22 November 2011 at 7:14 pm

    Great work William – love theTwitter one!

  25. jcuknz 25
    22 November 2011 at 7:49 pm

    When I heard Phil Goff saying how silly it was to sell the house to pay the mortgage off I thought of all the sensible people doing exactly that as they move on to better things.

  26. ianmac 26
    22 November 2011 at 8:10 pm

    Hope the TV3 doco on Child Poverty finishing at 8:30 gets wide viewing.

    • LynW 26.1
      22 November 2011 at 8:41 pm

      It was magnificent! This is reality in NZ. I know because I see it regularly. Please wake up dear voters and vote with your heart and soul. Our chidren are our future, it’s in our hands! Congrats to the makers of this doco. Well done!

      • ianmac 26.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 8:50 pm

        Agreed Lyn. It needs a huge rethink since the declared intent of a certain political grouping is intent on reducing housing, education and health. Wonder if that excellent doco touched many?

        • LynW 26.1.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 8:55 pm

          I live in hope.

          • seeker 26.1.1.1.1
            23 November 2011 at 12:02 am

            The doco certainly touched me Ianmac. Bryan Bruce did a phenomenal job investigating this horror and presenting it to us in such a clear manner. Our poor children and their parents, who are all to often facing a heartbreaking battle to provide for them. Thought the sights I saw tonight had been consigned to history.
            What is our government up to? Can’t they manage to run a country properly? They appear to have the wrong spending priorities. Our children deserve so much more.

  27. Campbell Larsen 27
    22 November 2011 at 8:59 pm

    Lol – zombie slater door knocking : )

  28. pollywog 28
    22 November 2011 at 9:18 pm

    Post of the week from the Bog relating to the bad case of worms that seems to have infected the place..

    quinnjin (12) Says:
    November 22nd, 2011 at 5:49 pm

    Yeah right farrar you tory turd. Key got his arse kicked, and it turns out the test audience was fairly picked. Your slimey liitle mate in parliament just got his arse kicked, why? cause hes full of shit. eat it up and stop mewling your pathetic excuses.

    [DPF: 100 demerits. Goodbye]

    hahaha…too funny !!!

    • kriswgtn 28.1
      22 November 2011 at 9:38 pm

      hhahahahaha made my day

      I lasted all of 1 hour there

      Aint been banned from Trademe boards yet- some of the torys there are jus plain nasty ( as in fucked up)

      Loved the prog on Child Poverty in NZ tonite

      honest and hard hitting

      HNZ ,you should be ashamed of yourselves.

      National well dont really need to say sfa.

  29. Bill 29
    22 November 2011 at 9:19 pm

    Trying to comment again, but suspect I will be dumped into ‘spam’. But on the off -chance this gets through, somebody with more knowledge of the in’s and out’s might want to post on the fact that a fuck of a lot of comments from regular contributors are going into ‘trash’. (Seems I’m the only one going down the ‘spam’ route)

    • Bill 29.1
      22 November 2011 at 9:23 pm

      First comment in three days that ‘came up’….and just for once, I’ve nothing to say goddamnit!

      • lprent 29.1.1
        22 November 2011 at 10:16 pm

        Fixed the spam trigger. Have new moderators learning the ropes.

        • Bill 29.1.1.1
          22 November 2011 at 10:26 pm

          Hmm, but still wondering, what’s with the umpteen comments from regular commentators in ‘trash’? Some, though not all, are duplicated as comments on the page.

  30. Bill 30
    22 November 2011 at 10:06 pm

    Oops! Got something to say afterall. There goes the tourist industry. Thomas Cook (How big are they in the scheme of things? Certainly not ‘small fry’) in emergency talks with banks and shares down 51%.

    Who would have thunk that a global depression would mean people not going on holiday? Wonder what plans the illustrious NZ minister of tourism has up his sleeve (or in his ball pocket) for the shoit that that suddenly appears to be hovering waiting for gravity assisted splash?

    • mik e 30.1
      22 November 2011 at 10:15 pm

      sell air new zealand for fifty cents

    • Ianupnorth 30.2
      22 November 2011 at 10:42 pm

      Ah, but the market decides how things work! So, they all try to undercut each other to get the customers, who can’t actually afford their package holidays to Spain, meanwhile the airlines have rising fuel costs and can’t afford to pay the leases on their big shiny aircraft, which are leased from very big banks.

      But don’t worry, they’ll be paid out by governments, who will in turn tax the poor.

  31. ianmac 31
    22 November 2011 at 10:54 pm

    Bit late now but TV1 late news said that with the help of the Ombudsman, they have discovered that Govt had no real evidence or official advice about the predicted uptake of shares in the Asset Sale. Key has been saying that official advice shows that at least 85% of the share sales will be taken up in NZ hands. There has be no official advice other than a few oral discussions.
    Key has lied – again. Could be a big story.

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