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Open mike 23/03/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 23rd, 2019 - 232 comments
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Step up to the mike …

232 comments on “Open mike 23/03/2019 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Long-overdue enterprise likely to boost the economies of our regions: https://thespinoff.co.nz/food/23-03-2019/its-not-easy-being-green-why-the-redemption-of-hemp-is-long-overdue/

    “Hemp is not marijuana, but another strain of cannabis that has absolutely no psychoactive properties. It does, however, have heaps potential for use. The protein-rich seed can be used as the base for a bunch of different food products, from hemp milk to protein powder, while the rest of plant has a long list of uses, including clothing, packaging and building.”

    “In November 2018, New Zealand became the last country in the world to make hemp seed legal for human consumption – before this, it was only the oil we could eat. Of course, it’s an ancient crop, and before hemp got lumped in with cannabis and made illegal, humans have been making use of it as far back as 10,000 years ago.”

    “So what’s so special about hemp? For a start, it’s really high in GLA (an omega 6 fatty acid), which is anti-inflammatory. Aside from quinoa, it’s also the only complete plant-based protein source, with all 20 amino acids. It’s easily digestible, unlike whey or other commonly isolated protein sources, and the fibre content helps with digestion and gut health.”

    “Auckland chef and hemp specialist Cameron Sims has been singing hemp’s praises for a few years now. His mission, with his enterprise Plant Culture, is to get every Kiwi eating three tablespoons of hemp seed a day. It’s catching on, too. Simon Gault was one of his first customers, creating bread and granola with hemp seed, and going live with a hemp seed pizza-making session. It’s popping up on menus across the country, and Rebel Bakehouse is about to launch cricket and hemp flour wraps.”

    • Firepig 1.1

      Information and products also available at https://www.hempfarm.co.nz (disclaimer: I have no commercial interest in these products).

    • Cinny 1.2

      A bit of knowledge re textiles

      Fun facts…. hemp requires no pesticides or herbicides to grow, unlike cotton.

      The pollution in waterways from pesticides etc used for growing cotton in the USA is gobsmacking.

      Hemp takes around 90 days to grow until harvested. Compared to say a pine tree which takes 20-25 years. One year of pine tree growth = 3 hemp harvests (saving a few months for soil reconditioning and seasons). Making for better use of land, thinking of the fires we had, those pines will take decades to replace, however if it was hemp it would only take months.
      Both can be used for textiles among other applications. Rayon is a cellulose fibre, usually made from wood pulp.

      Just a thought…. we have an MDF plant in our region, MDF is made from wood pulp, steamed etc, if that’s the case surely hemp could be used to make MDF.

      Hemp is an incredible textile and such a versatile plant. Perfect growing conditions for hemp in NZ.

      Cool link Dennis, thanks for sharing

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

        Remember all those years Nandor was promoting this in parliament? I was taken aback at the lack of public support he got at the time. Seemed an obvious win/win for all: the right really did themselves a lot of harm failing to acknowledge the economic potential of hemp.

        Particularly as everyone seemed to acknowledge some regions were so depressed that any new business venture would be a ray of hope. I even remember Anderton making a big thing about regional development when he was leader of the Alliance a decade prior to Nandor.

        • Cinny

          Yes re Nandor 🙂 And Jim Anderton, Gma thought he was the bees knees, probably due to his interest in regional development. Cool flashback Dennis 🙂

          Really pleased people are talking about the hemp topic. Most hemp fabric is created in China. Would be wonderful if we had hemp factories here, NZ grown and woven hemp, carbon footprint would be so small. Easy as to market it in that instance.

      • Stuart Munro. 1.2.2

        Hemp panels. https://materialdistrict.com/material/hemp-panels/

        Might be a thing Shane Jones could get into to break the building materials cost deadlock.

        • Cinny

          Yes please Stuart re Shane Jones and breaking into the building materials cost deadlook. Awesome thinking.

          Way cool link, thanks for that.

          Crikey if they manufacture it in the Netherlands….. surely we can do it here.

      • cleangreen 1.2.3

        yes to that; –

        “The pollution in waterways from pesticides etc used for growing cotton in the USA is gobsmacking.”

        Yes Ciiny –
        We have been telling the last three Governments;
        * (Labour 1999- to 20008
        *then National 2008 to 2017,
        *and now again – Labour again since 2017;

        “what about the road runoff of vehicle pollution from fuel,- diesel and petrol and exhaust emissions, oils, and the massive amount of toxic carcinogenic tyre dust particulates”-

        All which then get washed off the roads in rain, and pour into our roadside waterways and rivers and lakes and finally into our drinking water”?

        Nobody has done anything about this “Elephant in the room to date yet.

        We hope Jacinda get rail going around the whole country, to finally put a stop to this pollution of our water and environment.

        This is gobsmacking too.

  2. WeTheBleeple 2

    This is some amazing footage of America’s Vice President, Mike Pence, talking to some folks concerning flood relief.

    What’s amazing is the language and tone were straight out of the Jacinda playbook. And, in that instance, you could palpably feel that he really wanted to be that person helping the public, but also that he is feeling hamstrung by his boss.

    • WeTheBleeple 2.1

      NY times has covered Jacinda twice in 24 hours. The latest


      ‘Jacinda Ardern Is Leading By Following No One’

      How can we, a public used to openly denigrating our opposition, do better?

      I’m going to (try to) look for good attributes in our opposition. There are those pet projects that may require more time. 😀

      Judith tells NRA to bugger off – champion.

      Simon gets on board with gun legislation – legend.

      Thanks Jude and Simon, you’ve helped make NZ a better place this week, and Jude’s standing up to the NRA in such a manner is another example the world needs.

      • WeTheBleeple 2.1.1

        More iconic imagery being exported en masse.

        The picture of Constable Michelle Evans adorned with a rose and headscarf standing guard outside Christchurch Memorial Park Cemetery.

        I love what she had to say

        “”I like going to jobs, and the best part is probably going there and people are in a situation where they don’t know how to deal with it, or they need someone outside of what’s happening to look at a situation and give them a good pathway to go down, and at the end of it they thank you for it.”



      • Jenny - How to get there? 2.1.2

        Judith tells NRA to bugger off – champion.


        Judith Collins tells the NRA to bugger off, according to, wait for it, Judith Collins. (No corroborating evidence given).

        Remember the image of Judith Collins blasting away with semi-automatic pistol at a shooting range. That was then, this is now. Hard to find that image anymore.

        A reborn anti-gun lobbyist, who owns a taser and fantasizes about using it on people she dislikes.


        Don’t vote National, if you value your hospitals, your health, or your life.

    • Adrian Thornton 2.2

      You mean this god fearing, war hawk who has never seen a US intervention that hasn’t given him a boner…man put you critical thinking glasses back on.

      “Mike Pence Will Be the Most Powerful Christian Supremacist in U.S. History”


      • RedLogix 2.2.1

        Adrian, I find it’s better to not punish people when they are trying to do the right thing.

        WTB is doing something subtle here, the way I read his comment above is this: if someone like Mike Pence, who we all know has a political record none of us like …. can do the right thing … then what’s holding anyone else back?

        • Adrian Thornton

          RedLogix you go tell that to the Iranians and Haitians, Yemenis, Venezuelans, the Iraq’s…the Muslim and other immigrants in the US getting brutalized by ICE…fuck him.

          • greywarshark

            Adrian Thornton
            You are bringing the aggression that is behind all those countries’ problems onto this page. Desist – in the name of peace brought about by cool, careful thought and reflection.

            And this from Chris Trotter thinking a bit further and deeper than yourself
            on the subject of free speech, and when society should start charging for it otherwise we will have to pay ourselves, sooner or later:

            The proposition being advanced by Davidson, Ghahraman, and many others on the left, is that terrorist acts are the by-products of societies steeped in racism and xenophobia: that they constitute merely the awful apex of a much larger pyramid of prejudice. By discouraging the expression of the milder prejudices embedded at the base of this grim pyramid, they argue, their transmission upwards to damaged individuals like the Christchurch shooter can be interrupted, and lives saved.

            The problem with this argument is that the level of intervention in the lives of casual racists and xenophobes required to make such a regime effective would, almost certainly, engender considerably more resentment and hatred than it was intended to suppress. Not only would racism and xenophobia not disappear, but the promoters and enforcers of the state’s anti-racist and anti-xenophobic policies would find themselves added to the terrorists’ target list. It should not be forgotten that the Norwegian white supremacist terrorist, Anders Breivik, did not target Muslim immigrants directly, but the young Labour Party members he held responsible for Norway’s multicultural policies.

            • WeTheBleeple

              GWS – I know you mean well but please stop trying to micromanage people who have passionate views/speech.

              • greywarshark

                I know you mean well but please stop interfering in my efforts to help bring about a society with balanced viewpoints about free speech and kindness and practicality. I will leave you out of anything I say in this context and just stick to discussing environment and growing things with you in which you are so knowledgable.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  You were consistently on peoples cases about language long before this week. It’s now looking like opportunism. And you’ve jumped on other’s bandwagons on their use of vernacular as well – resulting in pile-on’s on other contributors here.

                  I said please.

                  You’re on your own in HTGT sick of being treated like all I can do is grow cabbage. Go ’embrace the wild.’

                  • RedLogix

                    Growing good cabbages year in year out is probably more than most of us can do WTB 🙂

                  • greywarshark

                    Rudeness and unkindness is your theme at present.
                    You mention that you are PTSD and that it is something you grapple with, apparently asking for understanding and kindness.
                    I have tried to be understanding but to no avail. So please understand this point. I won’t be referring to you in anything I write, and not replying to you in anything you write to me.

                    I would appreciate it if any other bloggers would not enter into this and offer their own opinions. And also would you not make sneering, critical or negative references to it or about it and this disagreeable discourse in any of your comments.

                    That would be wise to note and will help the positive and honest discourse and discussion about good politics and valuable advice and information that is coming forward here. We need this to help us in our difficult future coping with meta corporates, lack of love and respect for humans, the advance of machine thinking, AI, robotisation, the drift back to 1800s conditions and the abandoning of the desire to maintain a good material society with fairness for all. I think this happened because there wasn’t enough thinking and talking by the citizens about the philosophy of life that we wanted to follow, just how to do material things. So don’t stop the thinking processes is my belief for facing and coping with the future.

                    Those are the important reasons for coming together and building a community of ideas. Matters of disagreement, that are passing problems in the whole process will arise but need to be assessed as to whether they are primary matters, or are not central to the

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Bla bla bla. Back the fuck off.

                    • solkta

                      You mention that you are PTSD

                      Nobody is PTSD. Some people have it though.

                      I would appreciate it if any other bloggers would not enter into this and offer their own opinions.

                      Oh, OK, so that is something reserved for you to do. Oh woops i just did.

                  • cleangreen

                    Jeez WeThe Bleeple;

                    Tone it down ‘please’

                    You sound like an ‘autocratic’ soul now so cool it ‘please’.

                    • OnceWasTim

                      Maybe so @ CG, but it may just be a reaction to some contributors here coming across as a control freak school maam/misters, or the pedant just above.
                      I’ve been debating whether or not to utter anything, and maybe I shouldn’t, but I can understand some of the frustration from the likes of WtB, Marty Mars and others.
                      After a workplace incident in Wellington yesterday that took place between 13.32 and 13.35, (work out the significance), you might understand why some well meaning comments come across as ‘lecturing’ and just a little bit condescending

            • Incognito

              Looking at the quoted text from Chris Totter it occurs to me that he ‘transmits’ from “discouraging the expression of the milder prejudices to

              … the level of intervention in the lives of casual [!] racists and xenophobes required [!] to make such a regime effective would, almost certainly, engender considerably more resentment and hatred than it was intended to suppress.
              … the promoters and enforcers of the state’s anti-racist and anti-xenophobic policies … [my bolds and exclamation marks]

              He looks through the lens of history as card-carrying historical determinist, which is fine, but it will not help much in the way of encouraging change and adaption to and adoption of a new framework or paradigm. Essentially, he is looking backwards and sees BAU (been there, seen it, done that) while we need to look forward and embrace change and the unknown – uncertainty is anathema to determinism.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Thanks RL. I really appreciate Adrian’s content and understand his stance of not giving the bastards an inch – it is also valid.

          You are right – I did think that if someone like Mike Pence can be touched by Jacinda’s leadership, there might be hope for us after all.

          • Adrian Thornton

            WTB, All I am saying is all these shows of emotion are very good and are welcome, but politically it is pretty easy stuff…lets just take a breath, then wait and see what real life deeds and actions these leaders actually do to going forward before we heap so much praise on them…including Ardern, whom might well deliver something of substance for our hard pressed citizens, who knows…but as far as Mike Pence goes, I am fairly confident to say he will not bring positive change to the world in any way shape or form.

            • WeTheBleeple

              “but as far as Mike Pence goes, I am fairly confident to say he will not bring positive change to the world in any way shape or form.”

              Sadly this is likely true. But I love the fact JA put a chink in his armor.

              I saw a human that wants to come out and play. So I remarked as I thought it remarkable.

      • aj 2.2.2

        +1 The progressive movement in the USA is up against a fully funded and totally committed foe. My heart tells me to have hope but I think we are doomed.

        • RedLogix

          If you persist in framing the natural and necessary tension between left and right, authoritarian and liberal in terms of warfare, then it is important to think how this ‘war’ might be ‘won’.

          Consider how in the 80’s and 90’s the neo-libs may well have thought they had won the political victory; but instead all it did was drive the progressives underground for a while, and then over time we’ve re-emerged stronger than ever. While neo-lib ideas may still have some sway in the economic sphere, progressive thought has clearly made strong gains in the social dimension.

          So while Mike Pence and everything he represents is an anathema to the left, it’s not likely we can ever ‘defeat’ them in the framework you are using. We need another strategy, one I suspect Adern is modelling to us, but our old habits will take a while to change.

          • Incognito

            So while Mike Pence and everything he represents is an anathema to the left, it’s not likely we can ever ‘defeat’ them in the framework you are using. We need another strategy, one I suspect Adern [sic] is modelling to us, but our old habits will take a while to change.

            Agreed, we cannot change if we hold on to the old framework that got us here. We (some of us?) want (to) change but we are stuck in our ways of thinking, in our habits, and consequently we honestly (!) cannot see a realistic way out forward. The same can be said about neo-liberalism, for example.

            To deal with this conundrum we need leadership and I think we’ll need to take ‘a leap of faith’ if only to choose (to elect) those leaders and give them the benefit of doubt.

          • Adrian Thornton

            I do not persist in framing it as a war, It persists on it’s own as a war…a class war, and I am not sure if you have noticed but we are losing badly.

            Oxfam report – Huge wealth gap in New Zealand where richest 1% own 28% of wealth
            Inequality: New Zealand’s rich getting richer while poor remain static
            Housing in all main NZ markets now ‘severely unaffordable’

            “While neo-lib ideas may still have some sway in the economic sphere, progressive thought has clearly made strong gains in the social dimension.”

            I am not sure what you mean by this statement, it is plainly obvious that neoliberal orthodoxy and economic ideology controls absolutely…both here, the UK, USA, Australia, France etc….why do you think there has been as still is so much violent push back from the establishment from all sides to the even mild Socialism advocated by Corbyn and Sanders?

            As far as Ardern is concerned, as far as I can see she and Labour NZ have done little to curb the ravages of 30+ years of liberalism in NZ, (maybe a bit of small stuff around the edges, as is usual for our New Labour) but then again how or more importantly, why would they? when they are a neoliberal political party themselves.

            • Bewildered

              Hey Adrian we have a democracy if people want to vote for your revolutionary change shit ideas they will, but they don’t, so tough, chill out and fk off with your aggression, people are over it re “hate and demonising the other side” People new exactly what they where voting for In electing trump and Pence likewise don’t give us all that bs you know better All of above with the utmost respect of course 😊

          • aj

            Thanks I did mean it ‘foe’ in the ‘opponent’ sense. We will never defeat ideas of course but let’s not lose sight of the fact that the religious right have always regarded their opposition to progressive ideals as a war. Trump has made specific references recently to the use of violence against his ‘opponents’


            “Trump raised “the specter of violence against his political opponents” by telling the right-wing Breitbart website that his “tough” backers — police, military and “Bikers for Trump” — are prepared to counter his opponents.
            “I actually think that the people on the right are tougher,” the president said in the interview. “But the left plays it cuter and tougher. Like with all the nonsense that they do in Congress … with all this investigations – that’s all they want to do is – you know, they do things that are nasty.”

            I’m not disagreeing with you, but let’s not be too cute around framing

          • Kevin

            “an anathema” makes no sense.

          • cleangreen


            I was a kiwi that got off the P+O ship Oriana a sister ship to the Camberra in march 1968 in San Francisco when the California movement opposing the Vietnam war were everywhere with “flowers in their hair” preaching peace as Scott McKenzie was singing “When you go to San Francisco were flowers in your hair’ and I smelt that peace first hand as a 23yr old kiwi.

            We now live sadly in a very different divided world that looks very bleak going forward now as an older man now with sadness in my heart all the time.

            All we can hope for is that Jacinda will change things for us all again to a egalitarian world where we are all valued for our thoughts beliefs and concerns about our lives and futures.

            This will be a long hard journey that requires that we all help government and ourselves though it all without profiteering from others losses.

        • marty mars

          + 1 yep they are totally committed and we must stand up to them not bow down or cower. They CAN be opposed if we recognise what they represent and oppose that. No acceptance of racism or religionism or faithism or any of it. The line is drawn and people will chose a side no matter the few that play the middleman game. This is another tactic of those that don’t want change really imo.

          • RedLogix

            Forcing people to ‘choose a side’ is precisely the polarisation always intended by terrorists. It is why Yugoslavia unraveled in such a bloody fashion.

            We unwittingly complete their goal if we chose that path.

            • marty mars

              Sitting in the middle is just saying it is someone else’s problem. It isn’t.

              • Incognito

                All these are different PoVs but all in the same ‘plane’. What’s needed IMHO is an ‘elevated’ viewpoint so that we can look in ‘from above’. By analogy, Google Maps is great to find a position or route to a destination but doesn’t tell you what you might find; the Panoramic View is great to see what’s there but not necessarily how to get there.

                • marty mars

                  Don’t agree – seems to be a distancing tool imo seeking elevation.

                  • Incognito

                    Yes, creating distance it is, just like you step away from the mirror when trying on a new garment so that you can see it in full. Then you step back into the changing room and decide to buy or try on another 😉

                    I’m thinking of people who have a genuine interest in understanding our problems and coming up with a possible novel and creative solution. I’m not thinking of people who are denialists or simply too afraid (paralysed) to think and do something (e.g. ‘choosing sides’) and rather opt for escapism. I’m not not trying to judge here, BTW.

                    • marty mars

                      Yes and as we step away from the mirror we see more and less at the same time. We get an overall picture and lose the detail.

                  • Incognito

                    Exactly! Which is why we shouldn’t rigidly stay in one place but change our PoV from time to time and get out of our comfort zone. Alternatively, we listen to others with a different PoV and establish a conversation. We can always return to our ‘familiar place’ or choose a different position. The thing is, if we do experience a different PoV, first- or second-hand, we are changed and cannot ever stay in or return to the exact same place as before. I think this is one reason why (some) people love banning things, ideas, people; it does have an effect on recipients or those who come into contact with these ideas and this needs to be avoided at all cost. Or so the thinking goes.

                    • marty mars

                      I know the white supremacist view I don’t need a conversation for nothing. I know what Christian extreme views believe and anti Māori views and so on.

                  • Incognito

                    Although my comments were addressed at you, i.e. replies to your comments, they were not about you, rather they were about (the) people whom you were referring to @ who are “[s]itting in the middle is just saying it is someone else’s problem.”

                • Dennis Frank

                  Big picture thinking. I agree with Marty that centrists ought not to use their non-alignment to bail out of taking some responsibility to try help solving social problems. I agree with you that taking sides is unhelpful. It tends to make folks part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

                  Even worse, it turns them into a target for the other side. There’s a downside to the `god’s eye’ view though – it tempts users into tacit identification with god, which eventually makes them sociopathic. Thus collective usage by scientists produces scientism. But I’ve digressed into philosophy, sorry! 😇

                  • RedLogix

                    I agree with Marty that centrists ought not to use their non-alignment to bail out of taking some responsibility to try help solving social problems.

                    Totally, and I accept that moderates project that impression too often. My response is that change is essential, but more importantly we need change that not only works, but doesn’t come with more problems than it cures.

                    • marty mars

                      And I agree that although I have a particular ‘polarized’ position which is deliberate I might add – I value and think important all opinions including the middle view and the higher perspective view – not so much the right view to be fair 🙂

                      sorry if my harshness of tone has not portrayed that.

                    • Incognito

                      My response is that change is essential, but more importantly we need change that not only works, but doesn’t come with more problems than it cures.

                      It is my thesis that our lives and we humans become more and more complex as we evolve. Our challenges will be more complex too. You can call it the paradox of complexity entropy.

                    • Adrian Thornton

                      .”I agree with Marty that centrists ought not to use their non-alignment to bail out of taking some responsibility to try help solving social problems.”

                      Listen to you people talking as if ‘centrists’ operate politically without any ideological foundation to their motives and actions at all…please tell me, who are these magical ‘centrists’ you speak of? I don’t think I have ever meet one.

                    • RedLogix


                      I don’t much like the term ‘centrist’ either, it implies someone with an utterly neutral position, and like you I don’t think such people really exist.

                      What do exist however are very large groups of people on both the moderate left and right. They tend to hold in common a sense of what they want, but have different view about how to get there.

                      They accept a diversity of values and are willing to negotiate interests in a way everyone can live with, even if no-one is entirely happy with the compromise. We tend to incremental changes, and are very wary of those promoting utopian revolutions.

                      And especially moderates reject extremism no matter what form it comes in. It’s what has united and kept this nation together this past week.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      @ Adrian (there’s no reply button there):

                      I’ve explained that here several times in the past. I decided that the left was part of the problem in 1971, having identified the right as closet fascists in 1970. Since there was no theoretical frame I could identify myself via at the time, I triangulated the two polarities in my psyche.

                      Since then I’ve encountered several different framings for what is now a third of the electorate in western countries. I don’t mind whether this sector of public opinion is labelled centrists, non-aligned, moderate, apolitical, or whatever. Few are magical. Few have an ideology. Politically, they demonstrate the relative disempowerment of the antique binary frame. Crucially, they contain swing-voters, who usually determine our election results.

                  • Incognito

                    Dennis, it is a spectrum, a sliding scale, but not necessarily a slippery slope from assuming an ‘elevated’ PoV to get a better picture to “the `god’s eye’ view” or from science to scientism. There is no inevitability either. But you know that 😉

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Oh, indeed. As regards those who do slip down, c’est la vie. The god-like figure of Richard Dawkins bestrides the intellectual landscape of the UK like a lumbering dinosaur… 🙄

      • WeTheBleeple 2.2.3

        Adrian. Every day we wake up anew. Every day we have the chance to be better than the day before.

        We will never stop fighting or warring if we continue to drag out everyone’s historical stances and actions. From what I understand of the last weeks global commentary, some people are holding and acting out on grudges centuries old.

        As far as I’m concerned everyone in the world with half a heart has noticed a (highly desirable) change in the narrative. Kindness. Compassion. Working together.

        We’ve all made mistakes. We’ve all brought shame on ourselves. While anger and blame do much to detract from cleaning our own houses, they do nothing to heal the rifts we have created.

        Healing the rifts and working together, there is nothing we could not do. Us vs them permeates every facet of our lives. The narrative of kindness and cooperation does not fit the rat race paradigm, try it, I know you care a whole lot, I reckon you’ll like it.

        • Siobhan

          We will never stop fighting or warring if we continue to drag out everyone’s historical stances and actions….thats the logic of abused husbands and wives who stay with their abuser, that’s the logic that allowed the Catholic Church to move its pedos from country to country…

          Please reference Pences declaration of regret and apologies for past actions, how he has been held to account,
          his commitment to not repeating past ‘mistakes’,
          his actions to help restore life and dignity to the victims of his ‘mistakes’,
          then maybe you have a starting point for thinking these ‘mistakes’ of his can be put behind us..

          • Incognito

            If we hang on to the past and let it determine our lives as if it is a self-fulfilling prophecy nothing will ever truly change. If, however, we learn from the past and never forget (but forgive) we can ‘let go’ of it in a meaningful way and stop letting it us drag down and backwards all the time. That’s is the paradox.

          • cleangreen

            Yes Siobhan 100%

            We dont live in a perfect world and we cant put it right at one change in a day as WTB suggests we do every day.

            We do need to see from our past where the last generations went to solve or not solve their issues.

            Any professor will tell us that studying history is the best method to choose the best way to resolution. – so history is important here.

            • WeTheBleeple

              Reread what I wrote.

              Don’t use (old) history to bludgeon people with.

              You got someone currently causing issues, then sure deal with it.

              People carry centuries old grudges. C e n t u r i e s . . .

              What can I fix in this world, today.

        • patricia bremner

          Dear WBT you have expressed so much better what I was reflecting on this morning, though my anxiety for Jacinda has given me reflux. I still believe we have to examine our prejudices and fears to see why we accepted behaviours or didn’t even see them, before we can move forward.

          • greywarshark

            A further part of Chris Trotter’s thoughtful post refers to our prejudices and fears Patricia B and I thought you might think it expresses our situation well.

            Trying to limit such people who harbour ‘malicious prejudice’ while not interfering with the flow of ideas and concerns from the majority of citizens trying to live positively and fairly will be a matter requiring careful judgment.

            Perhaps the most difficult thing to accept about societies such as our own is that there is within them an irreducible quantum of malicious prejudice. No matter how much energy is devoted to persuading our fellow citizens to embrace their fellow citizens, there will always be some for whom the messages of love and respect are interpreted perversely as threats to themselves and their culture.

            • RedLogix

              The fact remains, the radicalisation of our mass murderer took place in Europe and Turkey, it seems he was going to kill well before he arrived here.

              Or another way to put this; if NZ indeed was a perfect society, completely absent this “irreducible quantum of malicious prejudice”, is there any reason to think March 15 could not have occurred?

              • greywarshark

                True RL
                There are some things that need to be recognised ie the malicious prejudice, even when nothing can be done about them as an immediate fix. There is no such thing as a perfect society so take that out of the phrasing and perhaps leave the question ‘is there any reason to think March 15 could not have occurred?’

                We could turn that around. And think, what if the authorities had looked at what was happening overseas and thought ‘Is there any reason that such an attack could not occur here’? Then they might have looked at the loose gun laws. That would reduce the ability to create instant mass deaths. Then look at who the overseas perpetrators were. What did we know about visitors to this country who were lone males, or small groups? Then we would have looked at the countries with which we had visa-free arrangements.

                That would have been a thoughtful, practical process to go through. The authorities could spy on Tuhoe as an example of close surveillance and go to the extent of actually invading their area in special gear with guns etc. This arising from surmise and malicious prejudice of police and their employees, contractors. They did not put the effort in to checking the weak points in our system which would likely have flagged people. And the gun laws where we should have learned from Aramoana and crazy man there, paranoid purchaser of guns.

                There is a good chance that if the attack may have been prevented if
                more intelligence was available about such men as the shooter. His purchase of guns would be noted, perhaps prevented by a properly run system that limited ownership, then numbers of guns, and asked questions of how and why and then check out whatever gun club or group was stated, and get a testimonial about the shooter before the gun could be bought. This would be terribly annoying to men who want to use guns as a backbone strengthener. Farmers and shooters with legitimate needs, and who had no records of violence, would not be disadvantaged.

                It is possible then that he would not have been able to shoot masses of people, before the Muslim men rushed him, they were brave and good and cared about their people. So one or two men might have died in that process of tackling him. There would still have been deaths, but fewer. The Muslims can teach us a better way of living and behaving I think. If we listen to them, and want to change.

              • Incognito

                The key word is “irreducible” and this frames the narrative.

                No, no reason whatsoever. In fact, I could argue the opposite effect. It reminds me of how people react to others whom they consider ‘sanctimonious’: with disgust, hatred, vindictive and vengeful. Why? Because they are projecting – it is classical (Jungian) psychology. And it is everywhere, including here on TS, but I don’t have to tell you that …

            • marty mars

              “No matter how much energy is devoted to persuading our fellow citizens to embrace their fellow citizens, there will always be some for whom the messages of love and respect are interpreted perversely as threats to themselves and their culture. ”

              wow awesome self analysis – I hope a few on here read and assimilate that message.

              I have been sad but not surprised that I haven’t seen very much self analysis and contrition from those pushing anti Islam lines here in the past.

              • RedLogix

                Here is something you do not know about me. I am almost certainly the only regular here who has for decades fully accepted as part of my core values the following proposition; that Allah as named by the Muslim faith is the identical conception as found in all of the major monotheistic religions, and that Mohammed was indeed a Prophet whose followers achieved much in human history.

                Process that.

                • marty mars

                  Process your stuff and offer your opinions – that, I am interested in. I also think you should not judge others based on what you think they think, that path leads to disappointment.

                  On your content – yep I like that you have a mature view on Islam – well done.

                  • RedLogix

                    A short time back Ad put up a trenchantly scathing post on the Catholic Church in the wake of the Cardinal Pell conviction.

                    Did anyone for one instant imagine he was being ‘anti-Christian’ or a ‘Christophobe’?

                    • marty mars

                      Good – I’d like to see some posts from people who consider themselves white analysing white hate crimes.

                    • One Two []


                      What would YOU do with such commentary?

                      Are ‘non whites’ outide of humanity…absolved of particular contribution to (any historical event) ?

                    • RedLogix

                      I don’t think you intend that rule should be ‘only members of an identity group can criticize that group’ either; because that very quickly comes with a whole lot of unattractive consequences.

                      My view isn’t fully formed yet; but what we do know about him is this; his father dies from asbestosis 7 years ago, he would have been 21 then. In Australia it’s possible the family received a lump sum compensation from James Hardie, which enabled him to leave Australia and travel extensively.

                      We also know he is a loner, short of stature, and something of an outsider. Although countering this the people who knew of him from this period don’t paint a picture of him being anti-social either. So far we have a sad figure more than an evil one.

                      We also know that this emotionally activated young man was deeply affected by his encounters in Europe with the monstrous cemeteries and monuments to the various war dead. This suggests he is not a psychopath, and indeed it’s an experience I think many of us can relate to. The various catastrophes of the 20th century are a tough thing to confront.

                      Then at some point he is in Turkey for some considerable period, maybe up to 3 years. We don’t yet know anything about what he did and who he associated with. But clearly at some point in this period be turned from a sad and possibly traumatized figure, into a nihilistic and dangerous one. His deeply shocked mother has said that he returned from his travels a “changed man”.

                      Rather than stay in Australia, he travels to NZ, because it’s easier for him to obtain MSSA’s here, train with them legally and not raise suspicion. Originally an attack in NZ was not his intention, but at some point it seems the relative vulnerability of NZ targets changed his mind. Australia has seen a number of terrorist attacks, from the Bali bombing onward, and are more security conscious. The mosques there have more routine protection.

                      At point in time we do not know if he had any contact or help from anyone in NZ in the commissioning of his crime. If this turns out to be the case, I’ll be as dismayed as anyone.

                      In respect of his primary reason to come to NZ, our lax gun laws compared to Australia, we have acted promptly to change that and with almost universal agreement.

                      What you really want me to address is the extent to which our allegedly ‘deep racism’ is responsible for this hate crime. That, despite what a lot of people are claiming, is a lot less obvious. At this point I think I should address that in another comment, but it would be good to get your feedback on what I’ve proposed so far.

                    • marty mars

                      ffs you are a wanker red – have you memorised any of the victims story? You are clueless please dont engage with me again or I’ll get angry at you.

                    • marty mars

                      Actually red sorry for saying that. I realise that you tried to answer. I just dont want to be talking about or with white supremacists at all. I am not going to waste anymore of my time or energy in that way. I am going to take a break from here and listen to my people some of whom are on here – Kia kaha to you my friends. The readers know what I think and who I rate and that is cool.

                    • RedLogix


                      Anyone can be inclusive, kind and compassionate with people they like and identify with. The real test is when it’s someone you don’t like.

                      Also Mathew 5:44

    • Gabby 2.3

      Mike Ponce just wants some of the empathy action. Wouldn’t trust the bugger an inch.

      • Bewildered 2.3.1

        Mike pence is a good man, a Christian conservative with strong values based on 3000 years of Christian/ Judean ethics, the enlightenment … a world outlook based on objective reality This may clash with many progressive/ regressives today who think feelings, subjective reality and post modernism, picking and choosing science when it suits them is the way to go All good for them but this does not mean Pence is a bad man

        • Psycho Milt

          …a Christian conservative with strong values based on 3000 years of Christian/ Judean ethics, the enlightenment …

          1. The man is about as enlightened as a bank vault in a power cut.

          2. The imams of Saudi Arabia are also conservatives with strong values based on 3000 years of Muslim/Judean ethics. Pence is certainly their US equivalent, but as with the imams, nothing about that brings “good man” to mind.

          All good for them but this does not mean Pence is a bad man

          Indeed. What makes him a bad man is his rejection of entire categories of other human beings based solely on made-up religious bullshit. See the above-mentioned imams of Saudi Arabia for comparison.

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    The attempted US backed coup’ in Venezuela looks more and more ad hoc and bizarrely Orwellian as time goes on, check out this crazy shit, the last bit is especially good…seriously you couldn’t write this..

    • patricia bremner 3.1

      Adrian, talk about act first and rationalise after. Unbelievably sad.

    • Cinny 3.2

      Did you hear that Guaido’s Chief of Staff was recently arrested, accused of being part of a terrorist cell. As a result more sanctions from USA. Dodgy as situation over there.

      “Venezuela’s interior minister said on Thursday that authorities had arrested opposition leader Juan Guaido’s chief of staff for his involvement in an alleged “terrorist cell” that was planning attacks against high-level political figures.”

      “The United States imposed sanctions on Friday on state-owned Venezuelan development bank Bandes in response to the arrest of an aide to opposition leader Juan Guaido”


      • Dennis Frank 3.2.1

        Also on that page: “The UN human rights chief Michelle Bachelet said on Wednesday that Venezuelan security forces, backed by pro-government militias, have cracked down on peaceful dissent, with excessive use of force, killings and torture documented by her office.”

        Bachelet was addressing the United Nations Human Rights Council. Maduro’s use of death squads seems restrained so far, despite her verification of his deployment. He’s being selective in the targeting. Notice how carefully some commentators here are avoiding the moral need to acknowledge his evil.

        • Kevin

          Who is reporting that?

          • Dennis Frank

            As I wrote (start of my first paragraph) it was on that same Al Jazeera page that Cinny linked us to. I presume the reason our leading news media outlets failed to report it was due to their focus on the aftermath of the massacre.

            • Brigid

              ” I presume the reason our leading news media outlets failed to report it was due to the lack of corroborating evidence and their focus on the aftermath of the massacre.”

              There, FTFY.

              • Dennis Frank

                I’m puzzled that you seem to assume Al Jazeera requires corroboration. Why? Or do you not believe that the UN human rights chief is a credible source??

        • Adrian Thornton

          Notice how carefully some commentators here are avoiding the moral need to acknowledge the parallels of the violent past of US led interventions.

          Location Period Type of Force Comments on U.S. Role
          Argentina 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected
          Chile 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels
          Haiti 1891 Troops Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated
          Nicaragua 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields
          Panama 1895 Naval, troops Marines land in Colombian province
          Nicaragua 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto
          Cuba 1898- Naval, troops Seized from Spain, U.S. still holds Navy base at Guantanamo
          Puerto Rico 1898- Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues
          Nicaragua 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur
          Nicaragua 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields
          Honduras 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution
          Dominican Republic 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution
          Cuba 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election
          Nicaragua 1907 Troops “Dollar Diplomacy” protectorate set up
          Honduras 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
          Panama 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest
          Nicaragua 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto
          Honduras 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war
          Cuba 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in Havana
          Panama 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election
          Honduras 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests
          Nicaragua 1912-33 Troops, bombing 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas
          Mexico 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution
          Dominican Republic 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo
          Mexico 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists
          Haiti 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts
          Dominican Republic 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation
          Cuba 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate
          Panama 1918-20 Troops “Police duty” during unrest after elections
          Honduras 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign
          Guatemala 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists
          Costa Rica 1921 Troops
          Panama 1921 Troops
          Honduras 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife
          Panama 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike
          El Salvador 1932 Naval Warships sent during Faribundo Marti revolt
          Uruguay 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength
          Puerto Rico 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce
          Guatemala 1954-? Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion and coup d’Etat after newly elected government nationalizes unused U.S.’s United Fruit Company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua; long-term result: 200,000 murdered
          Panama 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation
          Cuba 1961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails
          Cuba 1962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union
          Panama 1964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal’s return
          Dominican Republic 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign
          Guatemala 1966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels
          Chile 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts democratically elected Marxist president
          El Salvador 1981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash; long-term result: 75,000 murdered and destruction of popular movement
          Nicaragua 1981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution; result: 50,000 murdered
          Honduras 1982-90 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders
          Grenada 1983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution
          Bolivia 1987 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region
          Panama 1989 Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed
          Haiti 1994-95 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup
          Venezuela 2002 Command operation Failed coup attempt to remove left-populist president Hugo Chavez
          Haiti 2004- Troops Removal of democratically elected President Aristide; troops occupy country
          Honduras 2009 Command operation Support for coup that removed president Manuel Zelaya

          • One Two

            Adrian, the majority of commentators (not only this site, but in real life) are conflicted in their thoughts and actions… that would apply to types who invest time to self assess and to reflect…

            Confusion and hypocrisy can result when opinions are expressed and beliefs formed from inadequate perspectives…

            Chch is a case in point…the commentary has largely been ill thought and reactionary statements…it is the level ‘we’ have been reduced to…

            A thoughtful position to take is as close to balanced and natural as possible, as often as possible…if not at all times…

        • reason

          . Notice how carefully some commentators here are avoiding the moral need to avoid regurgitating the propaganda from the greatest purveyor of violence in the world …..

          How many times did the us govt admit that Chavez was the democratically elected leader of Venezuela …..Dennis ???

          • Dennis Frank

            I provided the evidence that he wasn’t democratically elected here a while back. It’s all available on Wikipedia. Do your own homework. 🙄

            • reason

              Wikipedia …. where cameron slater edited the information about judith collins … eye roll indeed Dennis.

              Why do you think the mainstream media ( and yourself ), fail to mention this killer creep ,,,, when you talk of death squads???? …. Dennis.

              Also note ….. the head of the NRA gun lobby is another death squad glory boy …. Oliver drug running North … has this fact been mentioned anywhere in our media??

              Can silence be hate speech.

      • Adrian Thornton 3.2.2

        The Bolivarian Revolution and the ethnic poor and working Venezuelan people know full well that they are teetering on the precept of what could turn into a actual hell on earth..if this wasn’t obvious at the beginning of this US led coup’, then it certainly became obvious the moment the US administration hired Elliot Abrams, who as we all know, knowly assisted and then covered up some of the most horrific atrocities committed post war.
        Here is the legacy of the man that Trump administration has seen fit to handle the Venezuela regime change mission….
        ‘Remember El Mozote’

        Abrams called the mission in El salvador “a fabulous achievement”

  4. patricia bremner 4

    The Alt Right have started a programme to sow fear. They have threatened our PM.
    Apparently Twitter is hot on the case/sarc . I hope our NZSIS is awake to this now!!

    This campaign has started with pieces by Hooten, and others writing about neo lib
    values. Some writing about race in a”Boys will be boys” style. Positioning by some politicians, aided by spokespeople dropping Memes which are repeated.

    “The RMA can bugger off” Outsiders. Judith Collins
    “The terrorist was not from here” Outsider sadly, our DP
    “We will be an Islamic country ” Inferring they are Outsiders.Self appointed Bishop Tamaki.
    Couple all this with internet sites spewing filth and hate.. and suggestions this is now “Borderless” No no!! Some sites are endemic.

    I worry we are not looking closer to home, wanting to believe we haven’t let this hate and those attitudes grow here.
    We have. It takes a new New Zealander to tell us how shocked they were to see people in Christchurch openly wearing tattoos of Alt Right symbols of hate.

    Why aren’t we shocked? Is that part of our blindness? We need to examine how we are enabling these attitudes. How we accept the memes about “Outsiders” because we are better than that? Really? I wonder if others are examining past actions or lack of action in the face of home grown problems. I know I am. Times when I should have acted or spoken ….. would it have changed anything? Yes, Our PM shows how.

    • WeTheBleeple 4.1

      I like your comments Patricia. I do think though we need to understand the tremendous variety that is humanity, and that we are not all calm cool and collected like our leader.

      Judith telling NRA to bugger off was her style of getting on board (imo). There was no opportunism in it. As for Hooten, well… isn’t it nice that people are questioning ALL of the narratives.

      Every day we get a chance to be better. I noticed Hooten’s article was bumped from prime real estate quickly. If all he’s got is double speak and bile he’ll be more and more insignificant as time goes by. Those reporters who understand the necessity of a new narrative will rise.

      Bad leadership causes trauma right down the ranks. We see it in the work place all the time.

      Love, compassion – and vigilance!

      Adrian’s got the stick, we also need the carrots! 😀

    • marty mars 4.2

      “I wonder if others are examining past actions or lack of action in the face of home grown problems. I know I am I.”

      Thank you patricia – well spoken. I too, am trying to assess my words and actions previously and today so that I can improve and really show solidarity with the vulnerable groups in our society. It has been tough but I appreciate having my eyes opened to the groups I have missed. Kia kaha.

    • Anne 4.3

      I worry we are not looking closer to home, wanting to believe we haven’t let this hate and those attitudes grow here.
      We have. It takes a new New Zealander to tell us how shocked they were to see people in Christchurch openly wearing tattoos of Alt Right symbols of hate.

      Indeed patricia bremner @ 4, these attitudes and hatreds have been prevalent in NZ society for the past 40 years. I was targeted, on and off, by one such group for around 10 to 12 years starting around 1980 through to the early 1990s. I have alluded to some of my experiences on this site but never told the full story.

      In my case the attacks were covert and ranged from break-ins, telephone harassment to property damage and suspicious injuries and death to pets. It was my vet who alerted me to the non-accidental injuries. I approached the police five times over the period – twice supplied them with documented details – but they never conducted an investigation.

      Years later I happened upon the identity of those who were responsible. One of them had been right under my nose. They were part of an early ultra right-wing movement who were responsible for a number of well reported political mysteries of the time.

      And here’s the crunch:

      The ones I knew were members of the Labour Party. They were part of the far-right rump who disappeared in the late 1980s when David Lange called for a ‘cup of tea’. Some of them moved on to the now infamous “Backbone Club” set up to support and nurture Rogernomics.

      The events of this past week has left me feeling angry and bitter. I tried to alert the police – and indeed other individuals in high places – and was ignored. It doesn’t mean anything would have been different had they listened to me, but at least it would have been an early heads-up about the existence of these individuals and the fact they were there… and had the potential to become dangerous.

  5. marty mars 5

    I was proud to be born here yesterday. I don’t follow any of these new religions personally and I loved how for a moment we gave respect and mindfulness to our murdered Muslim brothers and sisters and their faith. We came together as a nation to pay respects and that was significant. I hope the same thing happens every year at the same time.

    Of course not all could do that – the white supremacists and Islamophobic losers couldn’t – they showed their true colours with all sorts of irrelevancies and distractions – their weakness is our strength. They are scared because their brands of weak and strong hate speech are being scrutinized and found wanting by our society.

    To all who took the time to pay silent respects – thank you – that has added so much to our country.

    • In Vino 5.1

      I had to read that first sentence twice, Marty. You weren’t really born yesterday, were you?

  6. Dennis Frank 6

    The nexus in which politics, belief & violence intersects is aptly illustrated by the Israeli writer Y.N. Harari in his 2018 book 21 Lessons for the 21st Century:

    “In 1969 Israeli prime minister Golda Meir famously said that there is no Palestinian people and never was. Such views are very common in Israel even today, despite decades of armed conflicts against something that doesn’t exist.”

  7. A 7

    US State Department has revoked and will deny new visas to anyone involved in the International Criminal Court investigations of US war crimes in Afghanistan.

    You read that correctly: the ICC is conducting a probe into allegations of war crimes by US forces in Afghanistan. But rather than cooperating with the investigation and being transparent about the proceedings, the government is trying to prevent them from entering the country.
    [quote is from Sovereign Man ezine, link below is to Reuters page covering it]


  8. marty mars 8


    Mr Iti said the response was huge and that although interest for his mahi prior to last weeks terrorist attack was there, he has noticed a huge increase of people wanting to engage in these kōrero about racism and white supremacy.

    “I am not trying to tell people what to do. It’s my job to provoke thought and try to get people there to look at things and how do we deal with these issues that are in front of us right at this very moment.”

    He said in his kōrero he also put challenges to institutions about collaborating with tangata whenua.

    Mr Iti said white supremacy views have existed in this country, especially in Christchurch, for a long time and he had warned of something like this happening.

    But he says it’s now about fostering discussions about these kaupapa.

    “The larger community need to engage in these conversations and it’s really important as an activist to share some thoughts to help bring people together and finding solutions.”


    and this video is awesome if you want to get a measure of the man

    • greywarshark 8.1

      Thanks marty
      I have been thinking of how Tuhoe kept on with their Treaty claim to provide for their future and their mana, while they were being over-run by the state dressed up like black insects and put in lock-down with armed guards etc.

      Sticking to the kaupapa. They maintain a line that holds to their tikanga and their vitality and pride, have suffered but haven’t let hate and aggression rule. They haven’t abandoned themselves and slid to degraded lives like many of the gangs. They seem to offer a beacon of how the rest of us could contain our community friendships and interaction, under the dehumanising pressure of our and the worlds’ empty-minded people whose lives revolve around not the treasure of being alive and living kindly with other wonderful humans; the empty people’s treasure is money, houses, galmour and self-satisfaction.

    • WeTheBleeple 8.2

      Spent a few evenings chatting with his son Toi when he tended bar at the Classic. Hell of a guy, real nice person. I think he’s in telly work now?

  9. joe90 9

    Affirmative action for fascists.

    President Donald Trump is expected to sign an executive order on Thursday that addresses campus free speech as well as other higher education issues, according to several sources familiar with the White House’s plans.

    Trump said earlier this month he would issue an executive order “requiring colleges and universities to support free speech if they want federal research dollars.”


    • RedLogix 9.1

      Yet oddly enough the first act of all totalitarian regimes, fascist or otherwise, is to clamp down on ‘free speech’.

      But as with all ideals, neither is free speech an absolute. Trotter put it well here:

      To stem the flow of reinforcing information to such individuals, we would not only have to censor the news media and shut down the Internet, but also close every library in the country. Anders Breivik and the Christchurch shooter drew their inspiration from the annals of Western history: from the Crusades and the expansion of the Ottoman Empire into southern and eastern Europe. History itself would have to be suppressed – along with huge chunks of the Western cultural canon. The game is simply not worth the candle.

      What we can do, is use the legislation already on the statute books to curtail the expression of sentiments intended to inflict harm. New Zealanders can thus be made more clearly aware of the distinctions to be drawn between the fair and reasonable expression of political and religious opinion, and communication intended to achieve no higher purpose than gratuitous vilification and insult.

      Will a proactive Human Rights Commission, dedicated to enforcing Section 61 of the Human Rights Act, prevent another massacre? Sadly, no, it won’t. Will it make New Zealand a better country to live in? Yes, it will.

      So, let’s do that.

      • joe90 9.1.1

        On the upside, BDS and LBGT activists will get unopposed hearings and the satanists and atheists must be looking forward to finally speaking at xtian universities.

        • Psycho Milt

          There’s always a catch! You have to be invited to speak, and it’s hard to picture students or academics at Christian universities issuing invitations to their ideological opponents. Not that it will prevent those universities declaring themselves proud bastions of free speech, mind…

          • Gabby

            You don’t reckon yanipopoli or his like might just set up an alternative student body to invite him to speak on campus?

            • Psycho Milt

              I suspect Milo Y would be heartily welcome to speak at Christian universities in the US. They’d frown on his homosexuality but it would be outweighed by the good points (to their minds) of his misogyny and conservative politics.

      • Poission 9.1.2

        In his book on Hume (Huxley 1886) (quoting from my first edition in front of me)

        On volition,liberty and necessity pg191-192 he quotes Hume and the arguments implied.

        When any opinion leads to absurdity, it is certainly false;but it is not certain that an opinion is false because it is of dangerous consequence (iv p 112)

        Huxley states

        And therefore, the attempt to refute and opinion by a picture of its dangerous consequences to religion and morality,is as illogical as it is reprehensible.Humes’s reply amounts to this,that the very idea of responsibility implies the belief in the very connexion of certain actions with certain states of the mind.a person is held responsible for those acts which are preceded by a certain intention; and as we cannot see,or hear,or feel, an intention,we can only reason out it’s existence on the principle that like effects have like causes.

    • arkie 9.2

      Protect the snowflakes! But he can’t stop this:

      Mueller has finished and submitted his report!

      • Post up now, Arkie. NO COLLUSION! (Just kidding … I hope)

      • cleangreen 9.2.2

        The Mueller report;

        Yes apparently they also found that a ‘top Ukraine individual’ (Ukraine opposes Russia) was found to be involved in getting Hillary Clinton elected also, which may be used as evidence Hillary was conspiring with foreign agents to rig the election and get her elected..

    • Andre 9.3

      Is there really a problem of free speech being suppressed on US campuses? Nah, not really.


  10. arkie 10

    To continue what Ovid started:

  11. Putting out the Trash Update:

    The terrorist’s name has added to The Standard’s moderation trap. That means that any comments that refer to the fascist by name will not be published.

  12. Dennis Frank 12

    Bryce Edwards: “We need answers for why this attack took place.” https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12214982

    And “targets for blame have ranged from politicians, intelligence services, rightwing and leftwing commentators (everyone from Mike Hosking to Chris Trotter), free-speech advocates, firearm sellers, social media and the prejudice of the New Zealand public, but rarely is evidence offered to support the contention of culpability for this atrocity.”

    Random targeting on the basis of no evidence is what people do. Can human nature be improved? Yes. Some people do prove capable of leading by example. Our PM has done so this week.

    He mentions that “Kenan Malik, one of Britain’s leading leftwing public intellectuals” advised against “a rush into “name-calling and invective” in the Guardian. Some commentators here will be disappointed, but relieved that they managed to deliver it ahead of his admonition. Malik is apparently depressed by “the way that much of the discussion has degenerated into name-calling and invective.”

    “Another British commentator, Maajid Nawaz, who is a Muslim and a former parliamentary candidate for the Liberal Democrats, writes in even stronger terms that “Radical Islamists and radical leftists have seized on the Christchurch tragedy to push their own hateful agendas” – see his column from The Times”.

    Haters hating haters is a symptom of the times, it seems. “Nawaz argues that this type of politicisation risks falling into the “trap” that the terrorist set to create division, chaos, and to pit the political left against the political right. He also fears the blame-game will lead to a shutting down of debate.” Yes, leftist calls for censorship have emerged.

    He cites similar critiques (New Zealand’s ghoulish opportunists). Ghouls, eh? A writer to the Herald: “The way forward is light, not darkness, it is away with anonymity and facelessness. It is a time of ownership of our ideas and views, and embracing tolerance and understanding.” Quite so.

    • Gabby 12.1

      What’s your point franky?

      • Sam 12.1.1

        Point is that in about 30 seconds gabby will induce a bout of extreme paralysis so she can duck her low quality IQ questions.

        • Incognito

          Unnecessary and unkind, Sam. Didn’t you state not so long ago here on TS that you wanted to teach people EQ? Should we take your word for it?

          • Sam

            I believe that there must be blood in the debate. When it’s bloodless then words don’t mean anything. So I want to eat what I kill, that feeds my ego, I don’t just want a robust argument, I want to convince the other that they are wrong.

            • Muttonbird

              You sound like a slightly less evil Slater or Lusk.

            • Incognito

              That stuff about EQ was a distraction then? Or a typo?

              • Sam

                Your objective was to treat screw ups with kindness. My objective is to put screw ups over my knee, give em a good spanking and send them on there way crying.

                Muttonbird is a good example because he’s (gender not assumed) out in the open. I cant put out a list of vernacular that screw ups get wrong cause we need to be able to spot them. Checking FINRA, FCA or global regulators is easy. But their vocabulary is hilarious. Literally sounds like a new grad day 1 on the shop floor.

                • Incognito

                  I did not state my objective!?

                  • Sam

                    Then you’re either on my side or on the fence which is just gutless.

                    • Incognito

                      Kindness is a path and the gate is wide open and I can walk through it any time I like and as many times as I wish.

                    • Sam

                      Fruedian slip? Kindness is a way of life just not an objective. What’s that supposed to represent. Concede.

                    • Incognito

                      Kindness is a way of life just not an objective.


                      It took a while but you got there in the end. Well done, Sam!

                    • Muttonbird

                      I think Sam conceded without even knowing it. 😂

                    • Sam

                      Premiss 1: I put kindness with controlling authoritarian lefties

                      Premiss 2 is I think it’s far more consistent to say kindness contradicts the narrative later on but we can start it off with something simple for instance, for every unit of wealth there is at least one unit of inequality every one is willing to put up with, and neither can be zero. So any form of kindness will come with at least one unit of inequality later on and that’s not calculation stacking by what ever fold of kindness you have. So where are you going to go from there?

                      And if you want to @me as well mutton with your rebuttals then you’re more than welcome. Or you can keep sending emojis if replying with logic and reason makes you feel inadequate.

                    • Incognito


                    • Sam


                    • Incognito

                      No, Sam, this was the smallest emoji I could and it symbolises how small and inadequate I feel. However, for obvious reason, I do not need to concede. Be strong, my brother.

                    • Sam

                      Using emojis or support commenters to signify that an argument is stronger or weaker isn’t the best indcator because fan girls got to fan. You came at my premise with an emoji and now you’ve got attitude = lose

                    • Incognito

                      QED is an emoji? Well, strike me down with a feather!

                    • Sam

                      I just want to fight in my weight divsion if that’s cool with you.

                    • Incognito

                      I’m cool with that, Sam. Fight well, my brother.

            • Gabby

              You sound like a little psycho sambam. Blood in the debate? Rambobam.

              • Sam

                Sorry for the delay, been a busy boi in between replying to insecure randoms. Any time youre ready to debate, we can put time limit on how long we can research latter just to give you a fair shake. When ever youre ready love.

        • Gabby

          Is that supposed to mean something sambam?

          • Sam

            I’m sure it’s not the first time you’ve tried to annoy some one. Only this time, your attempts at humour betrays you.

            • Gabby

              You’re gibbering now spankysam the mighty punisher. Debate me sambam, just debate me.

              • Sam

                You seem like you are scared and insecure so I propose we debate Hybrid Warfare or Human Rights. You pick, if that’s to challenging for you then you can pick something that is more on your level.

      • Dennis Frank 12.1.2

        There’s several in that one, Gabby. I had no particular one in mind. I was just commenting on the moral and political implications of what Bryce wrote. In respect of the purpose of this blog, I felt it served that to report the basis on which some leftists are criticising the stances of other leftists in the wake of the massacre. Implications for the future – learning therefrom – serve our common interest.

        • Gabby

          What would those moral and political implications be franky? In your own words if you can.

          • Dennis Frank

            Seems premature to have a go at that. Like most folks, I’m still processing the situation. The bit of writing I have done about it on various blogs is as far as I’m ready to go at this point. One can sense an implication, even articulate it briefly, but any potential gnosis eventually arrives via reflection & contemplation. I suspect there’s a subconscious stage prior to that too…

            • Gabby

              I hope it’s not going to turn out to be a variation on Slickbritches’ don’t blame the righties who fucked up just move on line of crap franky. Have to say that’s how it’s looking.

  13. Jenny - How to get there? 13

    “Having fun with guns in school”, reads the byline.

    “Holding a gun felt amazing and cool”

    White school kids are allowed to handle fully automatic weapons and taught how to dismantle and clean them.





    Not exactly


    • Puckish Rogue 13.1

      Won’t someone think of the children! Look at how traumatized they are! They might want to join the military when they get older! The sky is falling in! Ahhhhhh!!!!!!

    • Gabby 13.2

      Did they not let brown kids play with the guns jenny howty getty?

      • Jenny - How to get there? 13.2.1

        Apparently not.

        • Grant

          You know or you think you know?

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            This is what is known as grooming. These young people are being groomed. And yes the images are all of smiling white kids, handling automatic weapons.

            There are no images of smiling brown kids handling these weapons.

            It is an absolute fact, that in every Western imperial adventure that we have willingly and even eagerly engaged in, from Vietnam to Afghanistan it is brown kids (and their parents), that are most commonly in the cross hairs of the NZDF automatic weapons.

            This is us


            • Grant

              This is what is known as intellectual dishonesty. You take evidence which you know to be insufficient to make the case which you directly state as : “White school kids etc.” and use it to imply that the NZ army is somehow grooming a generation of white children to become white supremacists.

              I don’t know the school in question but I do know this country and how it operates. If brown kids were present they would have been fully involved in the programme as they are in every other part of school life. If any ‘grooming’ is being done it is the army possibly doing general PR and introducing children to the idea of a career in the armed forces.

              Maybe not the smartest move but hardly and evil plan to create the latest iteration of Hitlerjugend. Reading on we find the Government has put an end to the process before it has properly got off the ground.

              If we’re in the business of turning assumption into argument can I do it too? My bet is that at least 50% of any army instructors turning up to run the programme would be non-white as Maori in particular are greatly over represented. So much for your implied racially based recruiting theory.

  14. greywarshark 14

    Country Calendar on Radionz Saturdays at 7 am is a good listen.

    One story. A Waikato farmer had been breeding his herd and won prizes for decades. Then he bought cows from the South Island that had mycoplasma bovis,. He was honest and told a farmers meeting and since then has received death threats as if his innocent action was an excuse for murder, something to lay blame on.

    He had been in NZ building up his good herd for three decades – not a recent arrival. M.bovis is known overseas and an alert farming ministry would have been preventing its entry into NZ. But – no or little regulation – now the people have to pay the price for that.

    I remember Britain during the spongey brain disease there – unwise farming practices, industrial farming approach, had spread the disease around the country.
    Result – even small breeders saving rare genes with flocks with each animal named, had to give up their life’s work and their loved animals which were taken away and slaughtered.

    ‘Regulations properly and fairly policed are what are needed. Otherwise the push for business to expand, profit-taking, and push against regulations ow ignore ones not applied and not helpful occur.

    In UK the ‘spongey brain’ disease from the 1980s has occurred here and there since then. Are we watching out for this? They say that it seems as if it occurs spontanteously. It may well be that they were in the line for drifts from the nuclear plant in Russia the radioactivity from which spread wide.


    The slightly satirical approach to farming from one economics site with a
    telling image of colours reflecting on concealing fog.

  15. greywarshark 15

    There is an organic farm near Rangiora, Canterburyfor sale. The farming family are getting too old for 18 hour days – as can be at times, in all weathers as can be….

    It was a really good interview with a chap who sounds like how we wish all NZs would be, good-hearted, working at an enterprise that provides well for family, and with a sense of humour, and good attitudes. It would be good if some friends with farming knowledge could form a partnership or co-operative and buy it and keep organic.
    They would help and of course there is a bio-organic group that would inform and certify.

    After suffering an accident 20 years ago, Chris Ashwell could no longer drive trucks. For something to do, he started planting vegetables in his back garden. Quickly, the joy of growing food blossomed into an organic market garden business spread across 13 hectares of fertile land near Rangiora.

  16. Muttonbird 16

    Excellent result here and a picture of how combatting hate speech might work.

    It’s incredible to think trusted members of the community – a doctor in this case – could harbour such outdated and hateful views.


    • It is always incredible to discover there are people who view things differently from oneself. How dare they?

      A well-ordered society would of course make it every citizen’s duty to report examples of wrongthink to ThinkPol. The person who reported this doctor to his employer would make an outstanding citizen of that society. Our own society hasn’t reached that state of orderliness yet, but clearly there are people keen to get us there.

      • Muttonbird 16.1.1

        PM, I’m acquainted with your feelings on this.

        So someone, a doctor no less, got doxxed for saying “homosexuals had usually been abused”, etc.

        Well, given what happened on Friday 15 March would we love to have had someone doxx that Australian creep before it was too late.

        If you call it a price then this is the price of familiarity with, acceptance of, and inaction toward quite blatant bigotry.

  17. Dennis Frank 17

    “Southern called Ardern a virtue-signaller”. Gah! The fatal epithet? Well, no. Sometimes signalling appropriate virtues does actually resonate widely.

    Stuff published an examination of the link between alt-right thinking and violence this morning: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111387889/radical-losers-and-lone-wolves-what-drives-the-altright

    “France has been a hotbed of this paranoid thinking, crystallised by right-wing intellectual Renaud Camus in his 2012 book, The Great Replacement. In the alleged Christchurch mosque shooter’s “manifesto”, also titled The Great Replacement, he describes being radicalised in Europe”. “Camus has not backed down from these views in the days after the Christchurch shooting, but has said he does not advocate violence.”

    It reports the shooter “received a blessing from a reborn “Knights Templar” movement linked to Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik​.” So the violence emanates from these neotemplars.

    “Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban warns of the need to preserve “the Christian identity of Europe” and calls refugees “Muslim invaders”.” When it has reached the very top level of politics, we cannot credibly adopt Trotter’s lone-wolf theory.

    “In an explanation of the terrorist mindset published in 2006, German writer Hans Magnus Enzensberger talked about “the radical loser”. In a seemingly prosperous and successful society, the loser feels isolated and angry. He looks for someone to blame and, once he finds a group to belong to and be further radicalised by – “a collective of people like himself who welcome him, who need him” – then he will act.  That was in the context of Islamism’s Western terror cells. But, 13 years later, do the losers even need to join a real life group?  “You probably don’t need local networks any more,” Wilson agrees.”

    “As far as we know, the alleged Christchurch shooter’s radical community was online. Where were they geographically? Everywhere and nowhere. They spoke in an internet language of shared in-jokes, memes and coded references.” Non-local communities: the key to the conceptualising of the problem.

    “Irish writer Angela Nagle, author of Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars from 4chan and Tumblr to Trump and the alt-right, argued that the transgressiveness and shock tactics once used by the avant-garde Left have been adopted instead by the right.” This mirror-imaging tactic by the left & right has been evident a while.

  18. Perkins McTaggart 18

    Maybe we can write to sky and get them to NOT show the Jim Jefferies show
    after his disgusting comments.

  19. OnceWasTim 19

    Bloody interesting discussion following Patricia’s comments starting at 4. above.
    Wouldn’t mind hearing/seeing @ Molly’s take on things too.
    Earlier, I was sitting here with a member of my extended/second family (of south Asian origin) watching it all, and their reaction to many of the comments.
    A feeling of affinity with the likes of Patricia Bremner, WtB, Marty Mars, Adrian and others, whilst a “hakaara” to some of the others (ਹੰਕਾਰ).
    It’d also be interesting to know how people would handle the following workplace situation:

    Picture a small Wellington business – a mechanical workshop environment with half a dozen staff.
    Two staff members of Indian ethnicity (one a citizen, the other a resident, both having spent the majority of their adult lives in NZ), the others, Kiwi blokes.
    Both ‘new NZers’ having been subjected to the goading and constant denigration from another employee (from Northern Ireland) and a recent arrival – the usual shit: “Go back to your own Country!”, etc.
    Plus one or two other incidents, out of work time such as when there was an encounter at the Newtown Fair when one was told (to paraphrase) “you dirty cunt, what are ya looking at my friends tits for!)”. The constant goading and provocation.
    And when it was pointed out to this obnoxious, cowardly character that one was a citizen and the other a long-time resident, the response being something like “you’re not under the Queen”).
    It reminded me of 1950/60/70s attitudes my father used to moan about when we had a few paid for Tory imports coming here to head our public service and show us mere colonials the way ahead (as well as a number of others who came here in a bid to escape all that shite). Btw……some of those Tory imports and their legacy still exist to this day.
    They were the ones that told us not to speak Murry or even Murry words. Later, they even used to wack me over the knuckles as a 6 or 7 yo with a wooden ruler at one of those Anglican schools for writing with my left hand. St. Michael and all his Angels my fucking arse!

    And so…..Friday at around 13.32, the supreme being from Northern Ireland chooses to goad and provoke yet again, culminating in his punching one of those dirty fucking Indian cunts in the chest. The response ….. “calm down bro” as he backed off into the view of a CCTV security camera. Then the second punch/push.
    When he got home, the bruising was still evident.

    I actually feel proud of my family member for reacting in the way he did, but I know if there’d been a 3rd punch, the result wouldn’t have been so pretty – most likely a tire lever wrapped around the skull of someone who quite obviously has problems – and what then?

    And so the aftermath so far:
    The citizen has resigned (as often they do) rather than ‘making a fuss’
    The resident informed his employer of the incident – we’ll see what happens. So far it looks like an attempt at minimisation of the whole thing (as in blokes will be blokes).

    • WeTheBleeple 19.1

      I think the employee needs to seek legal advice as to the procedure from here. It’s hard enough having to work all the time without it being a toxic environment like that.

      The man needs some advocacy, and some closure. That shit’s not on.

      • Anne 19.1.1

        Yes, I agree WTB.

        Seek legal advice or contact the appropriate union. The reason these c***s get away with it is because they are violent bullies and people are scared to take them on. And the employer(s) don’t want to have to act on the complaint. Better to toss the ball back in the victim’s court and with a bit of luck they’ll leave and the problem goes away.

    • Molly 19.2

      My partner had one of his team attacked when doing a delivery, with comments along the line you have described here.

      He immediately rang the customer and told them of the incident and said that they would receive no more deliveries until the situation was investigated and suitably resolved. His company then advised their team member that he had the option of going to the police to make an assault charge and that they would support him in that. The customer suspended the worker until the investigation was complete, and when it was they had determined it was an unprovoked attack and dismissed him.

      The employer in this case has a duty of care to its staff members, and has failed. They should be given the opportunity to respond responsibly and effectively to this incident, and all interactions should be recorded, which is why it is good that the matter has been raised. I feel for the worker still in the workplace having to raise this issue, when it appears the work culture is fundamentally hostile.

      Someone who knows employment law and criminal law much better than I do, might have contradictory and better information. But I think the fact that your relation left of his own accord, before raising the issue would work against him in the Employment Tribunal Court. If he is a member of a union, I would check with a union official about his options in regards to the workplace. However, he should still have a case of assault that can be laid with the NZ Police, although that may be an added stressor, if the employer is deliberately negligent and brings to bear on him further sanctions such as withholding references etc before he gets new employment.

      • greywarshark 19.2.1

        What is that term for leaving before being given notice, or not being supported properly by the employer – is it constructive dismissal?

        If the employee didn’t feel safe from this behaviour and didn’t know that the employer would make the workplace safe must be entitled to protect himself.
        Would Health and Safety rules come in here or do they only apply to physical safety?

  20. joe90 20

    I guess Barb cloning he dog was a sign.

    Barbra Streisand is under fire for comments she made about two men accusing Michael Jackson of sexually assaulting them as children.

    The legendary singer and actress said that Wade Robson and James Safechuck — whose allegations against the late King of Pop resurfaced in the recent documentary “Leaving Neverland” — “were thrilled to be there” and that what allegedly happened to them “didn’t kill them.”

    Streisand, 76, made the strange comments to British newspaper The Times in a piece out Friday, in which she also said that Jackson’s “sexual needs were his sexual needs.”

    She says she “absolutely” believes the allegations of abuse by Robson and Safechuck, but puts more blame on their parents than The Gloved One.


  21. Rosemary McDonald 21

    Does anyone hereabouts know anything about the English language test those non- English speakers seeking permanent residency are required to pass?

    A youngish friend who was born and raised in mainland China and has studied and lived in NZ for a number of years under student and work visas is struggling to pass the IELTS test. https://ielts.co.nz/about-us/

    And at nearly $400 a pop to sit…its becoming quite expensive. She is under the impression that each time she sits the bar is raised higher than the last time.

    Her English is fine. She works full-time in a well paid job that requires her to hold conversations and read and write in English. She is an excellent Mandarin/English translator, and if one is mindful is more than capable of conveying humour and irony.

    So why is she finding the IELTS test so difficult?

    My suspicious nature leads me to think that perhaps there could be a bit of exploitation going on here. These people are quite desperate to gain permanent residency and are easy marks. Of course they’re going to pay yet again if the only thing standing between them and residency security is that test.

    To be honest, this young native Mandarin speaker’s English is better than some others’ I could mention who have been ‘Residents’ for longer. But then again, they came to NZ as big $$$ investors not common workers.

    • WeTheBleeple 21.1

      That does sound like a rort. Fair Go might like this for a story.

    • OnceWasTim 21.2

      Couldn’t agree more. And especially your last paragraph (there are quite a few Kiwis I know that would have difficulty with IELTS 6.5).
      But as many will tell you – it’s all about the money. It’s what happens when you base your immigration policy solely on economic and business imperatives without considering whatever else a potential immigrant might contribute to NZ.
      Not only is it all about the money, it’s also about weeding out those “low value” immigrants we supposedly can’t ‘get an earn out of’. Some of them could tell ‘lil ole NuZull a thing or two about sustainability in farming/horticulture/etc, preservation and protecting water, or various facets of engineering.

      And more often than not, they’re the ones who’ve been lied to by unscrupulous agents who clip the ticket and who we should have been more closely monitoring.

      But don’t get me started Rosemary. It’s all working as designed

      • Rosemary McDonald 21.2.1

        Yes. The whole immigration thing is rife with rorts and new Kiwis are becoming increasingly cynical about it. They learn they’re a cash cow when they pay for their first year’s tuition for a Batchelor’s.

        • OnceWasTim

          Not sure if you believe in ‘karma’. Actually I don’t, but it amuses me (just a little bit at least) how some that are now so bloody anxious to develop new ‘free trade’ agreements with various nayshuns can’t understand why the going is getting a little bit tuff.
          I find it bloody funny (for example), that various of our senior public servants (corruption, matters of ethics and all that aside), were so prejudiced and unsophisticated that they were unable to join a few dots. I suspect for some of them, they were simply unable to get out of the way of their own egos. Not ekshully that clever really.

          Cudda shudda wudda eh?
          It probably would have been easier and more “cost effective goan forwid” to have run some sort of green card lottery because the end result has been pretty much the same

    • Stuart Munro. 21.3

      I used to teach IELTS – it ought to be relatively straightforward, but it depends whether she needs a 5 or a 7, which is a bit harder. Has there been inflation and profiteering? Well certainly in the TOEFL tests there has been, and it is a norm referenced assessment so it is somewhat designed to work that way – it would be odd if IELTS had altogether avoided the same pathologies.

      That said, good exam technique and preparation get most students through without enormous trouble. If possible, sort out what areas are giving trouble. IELTS written component usually comprises of a pair of essays of 150-200 words, writing half a dozen slightly longer practice essays will get most students over the bar. If listening is the issue, dictation or listening stripsaw activities are good practice, as is following audiobooks read aloud. She may be being punished for pronunciation, in which case minimal pair exercises are recommended. For reading comprehension, Paul Nation’s excellent little speed reading course is a way to overcome the habit that makes many students unnecessarily slow: https://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/about/staff/publications/paul-nation/Speed-reading-whole.pdf

      Language Partners https://www.englishlanguage.org.nz/ ought to be able to find her a friendly volunteer tutor, or appropriate practice materials are available through public libraries.

      • Rosemary McDonald 21.3.1

        “…it would be odd if IELTS had altogether avoided the same pathologies.”

        My thoughts entirely…and I’ve been trying to ascertain if my YF has a particular problem area….it could very well be the essay writing.

        I also hopped onto englishlanguage.org the other night after telling my Young Friend that there was such a thing. She’s been studying online, which I’m pretty sure is not going to give her the depth of language that kanohi ki te kanohi will.

        So impressed was I with englishlanguage.org’s kaupapa that I’m giving serious thought as training as a volunteer tutor when life settles down a little.

        Thank you for the insight.

      • OnceWasTim 21.3.2

        You’re onto it @ Stuart.
        I’ll try again because the last attempt at a reply disappeared up its own arse.
        But I agree, except that there is a caveat or two.
        Because past immigration policy has allowed experience and expertise in various sectors to be transferred to the immigrant (Let’s just SAY as an example – Kiwifruit to Punjabi/Hindi speakers predominantly) – and policy by design as it happens (we won’t get into all shit about orchard owners out-sourcing their risk to contractors),
        all the worker speaks by day amongst colleagues is Punjabi.
        Then by night, as they go home to double bunk in some rat chewed hell-hole (sometimes little more than a tin shack) where they worry about how their family at home is going to pay off the loan for some shitty tertiary course – they continue to speak Punjabi.
        Could just as easily be some Pacific Island language of course – such as those spoken by workers on seasonal visas.

        And of course then the worry of immigration policy and it’s implementation not too dissimilar from what we used to know as the ‘dawn raids’ which targeted the victim and allowed the opportunist perpetrator to go free for another round of ticket clipping.

        I realise all the above sounds a little dramatic, except that when one of those ‘old school, long term rural coppers’ told me how embarrassed he felt when having to accompany some INZ people on a night-time raid, it was confirmed to me just how fucked up the whole system was.
        And yes, IELTS is probably a reasonable measure in what it is intended for – the problem is in the way it is being USED and abused.
        (I wish I could more easily show you some of the photos I have promoting it all as a future nirvana for those that sign up for testing – all administered by corrupt little networks of ticket clippers, agents, tertiary institutions and labour supply companies – supposedly under the gaze of NZ/Australian/Canadian/UK governments professing integrity and ethical behaviour. I think the results are now speaking for themselves)

        • Stuart Munro.

          Yeah well testing was one of my bugbears – often a costly waste of time and the whole norm-referenced thing makes me want to scream. TOEFL is one of the biggest ripoffs in the world, IELTS is a little better.

          We’ve some pretty damned good teachers in NZ – Paul Nation and Warwick Elley spring to mind. Bet you anything you like they could come up with a better and cheaper protocol for testing for immigration purposes.

          The problem is, it wouldn’t be available in the countries of aspiring migrants. So they are stuck with language mills and testing profiteers, and neither the migrant’s interests, nor those of the receiving country are served. I won’t teach for language mills anymore, I’ve drawn a line.

        • greywarshark

          This is where The Standard really rises to the top – the platform where people who can see what is going on and tells us all about it can stand – much higher than a soapbox.

          Thanks OwT I have been concerned at stories by legitimate agencies have for years wanted government and Immigration to have legal contracts with all agencies so that the ‘brand’ for those in government wanting to run the country like a business, doesn’t get dirtied. But when John Key as Tourism Minister was pretty happy at continuing to advertise us as 100% Pure, it made a clear statement that would shine out through the murky water, that we were all pretty legal and okay as we were. Just keep clear of the rocks and she’ll be right.

          And we’ll keep on with the system sharpening the quickness of cunning employed by Homer Simpson about the foreign worker in his department.
          (Followed by why we might (not) go with nuclear power.)

        • Rosemary McDonald

          “…the last attempt at a reply disappeared up its own arse.”

          Hah! I kinda got the gist of your first reply as ‘up its own arse’ is familiar territory for me on a good day. I have a habit of meeting myself coming back. However reply 2 certainly offers more clarity. 🙂

          I am ashamed that we treat these visitors so poorly, doubly so that it seems it is part of a plan.

          Perhaps we should all make an effort to undermine the system by encouraging these more isolated workers to gain more proficiency in English. I wonder how we could go about that?

          Thank you for taking the time OWT.

  22. Macro 22


    I can see it now!

    Mexican Politician: We’re gonna make Tijuana safe! We’re gonna build a fence around around Tijuana and America is gonna PAY FOR IT!

    Crowd (Shouting) : Build the Fence! Build the Fence!

  23. Exkiwiforces 23

    Now for something completely different,

    NSW State Election is and the polls have closed a few hrs ago I believe NSW. This is a test for ScoMo and Shifty Shorten fourth coming Federal Election.

    There are number of seats to watch out depending on your taste of politics, the i’m personally watching is the Western Seat of Barwon because of the water issues over the darling river and Mark Latham for shits and giggles who is standing for the Red Head from Ipswich.

    The Greens are of a chance of gaining a couple of seats, but lose the Northern seat of Tweed Heads/ Bryon Bay Area.

    A couple of independents could scratch a couples in the bush from the Nationals and Country Libs.


    • Bewildered 23.1

      Looks like Labour got their butt kicked by coalition Interesting Shooters party did very well against National rural party

      • Exkiwiforces 23.1.1

        Here’s a very summary of last nights NSW State Elections from the ABC


        • greywarshark

          This Guardian report on the NSW election emphasises a steep drop in the vote for National.

          In Barwon they couldn’t bear to go left apparently so the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers SFF lobby got in.

          There can’t be much to fish though.
          Barwon Water has been pumping water out of the Barwon Downs bore field, located south of Colac in the Otways, on-and-off for about 40 years as a back-up water supply for Geelong residents.

          But studies have now shown the pumping drained waterways, exposing toxic soil and causing fish kills, leading to the State Government ordering Barwon Water to remediate the damage.

          On Thursday, locals reported there was little to no water flow, with the pressure too low for many evaporative air conditioners to operate.

          Some businesses were forced to close, including local butcher, bakery and deli services.
          Walgett’s temperature peaked at 39.4 degrees during the water shortage.

          Reliant on emergency bore water
          The problem was sparked by a high voltage fault at the water treatment plant on Wednesday night which the council says occurred due to “unforeseen circumstances”.
          A complete power failure at the plant caused problems with the control board so water could not travel from the bore to the reservoir.
          Water levels in the reservoir quickly dropped from near-full capacity to below 25 per cent.

          • Exkiwiforces

            Hi Grey,

            I think you got Barwon’s mix up? As there are more Barwon’s in Oz, than eddieaus’s out of one night in Trev’s sock.

            There is a Barwon river NE of Bouke on the Darling River System which I believe weaves it way through Sth Qld? Hell its been a long time between beers since I was last out way.

            SSF has made huge inroads in the National Party vote, which is not surprising considering they have treated the voters out that way with such contempt that is was going to happen sooner or later and the fact that Murray electorate which borders on the Barwon fell as well to the SFF and that tells you something.

            I was reading some articles on the Barwon electorate during the NSW State Election that some of the smaller towns Nth and East of the Hill including Menindee and Wentworth haven’t seen a single candidate from either of the major parties including the then sitting member. Just about every halt, town, outback pub/ general store said they going to vote for someone else, because they sick and tired of being treated with such contempt especially those on Darling about the lack of water or the draining of the lakes around Menindee.

            The Nationals were very lucky they didn’t lose Dubbo or some other bush seat as well.

            Now the big issue here is if the SFF puts up very good candidate in the Federal seat of Parkes (Barwon and Murray state electorates combined) then there is a bloody chance that the SSF will win if they second on preferences with about 40% plus with 1st preferences in hand. This could also upset the apple cart in other bush seats western NSW as well. On top the mad monk seat in Manly and sea changes in Nth Coast of NSW around Bryon Bay, Tweed Heads area.

            Outside of SEQ, the regional seats held by LNP candidates are under pressure from the party of the Red Head from Ipswich which is another story in itself.

  24. joe90 24

    tl;dr – just like Afghanistan, but in Spanish. Probably a shitty idea.

    The United States has a clear objective in Venezuela: regime change and the restoration of democracy and the rule of law. Yet sanctions, international diplomatic isolation, and internal pressure have failed to deliver a breakthrough. Minds are turning to military intervention. U.S. President Donald Trump has said that “all options are on the table.” What if he means it?

    There are two plausible ways the United States might use force in Venezuela: a precision bombing campaign and a full-scale invasion. Either course would have to be followed by efforts to stabilize the country and establish a civilian government. That could take years, given the country’s size and military strength. Venezuela has a population of 33 million spread across a territory twice the size of Iraq. Its military is 160,000 strong and paramilitaries, colectivos (armed leftist groups that support Maduro), and criminal gangs collectively have more than 100,000 members. Even if a military intervention began well, U.S. forces would likely find themselves bogged down in the messy work of keeping the peace and rebuilding institutions for years to come.


    • Gabby 24.1

      That’s why they’ll try and con Brasil into doing their dirty work.

      • Sam 24.1.1

        It’s because there are no forign bases in South America why it’s difficult to mount sustained envisions over a few years.

  25. Eco Maori 25

    I watch a neanderthal proffesor from Canadan saying the best thing the west has given the world is self identerty indvigulesem yea right everyone know that many hands make light work if one person trys to lift a huge rock he could no do it but 10 people could lift that rock. The wealthy classes act in a comunistic way they like the poor person to think individualisticly because that type of person is easer to fool to fleece to con to rob and that is what the upperclass are doing to the 99.9% of people they don,t pay taxs to socioty the crown serves them the most they make minuplate the laws to serve themselves. He was also trying to say that were are doing fine with the way we are treating our inviroment YEA RIGHT . WITH THE 00.1 % controling the world they are like a CANSER ON mother earth. And that has to change. ka kite ano

  26. Eco Maori 26

    The reason some Maori don,t want to be Maori is because of the great job the state has being DOING IN SHITTING ON MAORI MANA WAIRUA covertly.
    Hence someone close to me is in the same mind Eco Maori will change that persons view on the GREAT CULTURE MANA WAIRUA Maori has in Aotearoa and Papatuanuku.
    Ka kite ano r&r

  27. Eco Maori 27

    Kia kaha common people of Britain let the biggots know that your future is tyed to EUROPE
    In one of the biggest demonstrations in British history, a crowd estimated at over one million people yesterday marched peacefully through central London to demand that MPs grant them a fresh referendum on Brexit.
    The Put it to the People march, which included protesters from all corners of the United Kingdom and many EU nationals living here, took place amid extraordinary political turmoil and growing calls on prime minister Theresa May to resign.
    Ka kite ano links below


  28. Eco Maori 28

    Kia ora R&R on Maori Tv.
    ‘I’ Maori Tane Wahine and Tamaki get treated as a second rate people I cast my minds back to when I got my first car in Napier no one new my whanau links in Gisborne it was well KNOW and in 3 months I got $1000 worth of fines I sold the car to pay my fines you see the sandflys branded me and have kept it up since then.
    To solve racism treat everyone like your kuia I don’t say trust everyone just treat them with respect.
    The redneck that run the systems of Atoearoa have been in power for many years they con the pollies that they are not racist they don’t change when government changes.
    They lead the pollies by the nose and get even some Maori to believe that Maori are /been treated fairly in Aotearoa YEA RIGHT WAKE UP WE must look after our OWN Mokopunas future and that mean being biest and hiring /looking after Maori FIRST. AS everyone else has a huge head start up there ladders of Life on Maori.
    Ka pai for all the stories of yous being treated like dirt because you are MAORI.
    I agree with Marama views but one point the crown fans those fairs that if when Maori get power we are going to suppress them but know we looked after there tipuna when they were ripped off from their people and feed them Maori is a lovely caring culture not the white man tho. Ka kite ano

    • greywarshark 28.1

      That’s rough on pakeha Eco Maori. Though there is a much for you to be angry about. But if you can keep on trying and holding together you will win in the end in NZ, and pakeha will have to step further back and make room for Maori everywhere. At present we are all being taken down by world systems of profit, money-gathering. When the want for lots of money and fine houses and individual advantage gets inside a person it’s like a disease. So the system at present is weakened by this disease. If you can find a way to manage within the system then you shouldn’t get as many motor vehicle tickets. That is just a small way your life could get easier. And you will keep on holding on to Maori tikanga and remaining strong in your family.

      Tame Iti’s vid was good. Did you see it? You may even know him I guess. You have put up some good ones too.

  29. Eco Maori 29

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

    • greywarshark 29.1

      Great video.

      I’ll watch it again and take in the words that time. I see Red Gardens coming up on the panel of vids coming on after. If they show up on your screen, they are good on hints for organic growing etc. Just started watching them.
      And I have an interview with David Crosby of Crosby Stills and Nash. Good guy.
      I didn’t know anything much about him. Liked the music that’s all so good to know more. Overcame drugs went to prison, not in that order.

  30. Eco Maori 30

    Yes the poor common people are going to suffer the most from climate change while the Wealthy steer at sipping the red wine laughing.
    Community leaders want an early focus on protecting Auckland’s poorer suburbs, which new reports show are the most vulnerable to climate change risks
    Ka kite ano link below.


  31. Eco Maori 31

    I totally agree with the Author words
    On bloody acts
    that make less human
    mankind’s brighter sun
    let revulsion rise.
    the moon’s black evil:
    so that innocence
    and the child shall reign
    so that we may dream
    good dreams again
    Ka kite ano link below

  32. Eco Maori 32

    These sandflys following Eco Maori around are white supremacist IDIOTs

  33. Eco Maori 33

    Wow the sandflys white supremacist did not like my last post the started swarming I will just swat them AWAY Ka kite ano

  34. Eco Maori 34

    Kia ora Newshub Kia ora to the Aroha march in Auckland.
    What price for the dropped BALL. Mich did you have fun baiting the pastor from Waikato.?????????????????.
    ECO Maori post are reality I am educated my Whanau about the realities that this New Zealand system is dishing up to Maori 1 cent in the dollar for all that was stolen off US that does not even cover the loss of Mana and Wairua.
    Wow a plane crash in Taupo nui a

  35. Eco Maori 35

    Kia ora Newshub Kia ora to the Aroha march in Auckland.
    What price for the dropped BALL. Mich did you have fun baiting the pastor from Waikato.?????????????????.
    ECO Maori post are reality I am educated my Whanau about the realities that this New Zealand system is dishing up to Maori 1 cent in the dollar for all that was stolen off US that does not even cover the loss of Mana and Wairua.
    Wow a plane crash in Taupo nui a tia lot of Maori Mana Wairua there
    may should do the correct thing and drop out she is a right redneck they believe they are the eletist and are never wrong YEA RIGHT.
    I Tau toko Hine for her stance and singing the Maori national Aotearoa anthem at the All Blacks game 20 years ago Mana Wahine Ka kite ano

  36. Eco Maori 36

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News
    I read about the Maori land film festival it quite cool film makers get free lodgeing so they can make movies about their indigenous culture from around the Papatuanukue they will also learn a lot about Tangata Whenua O Atoearoa Great Culture to ka pai
    I see the story about the carving being unveiled in Uawa I have a couple of links there it looks good.
    Just because a lawyer/judge is brown and Maori Whanau does not mean we can trust them they are a small part of the system that is instertutional racism against Maori one Maori lawyer and the judge tryed to get me to plead guilty for a charge they new I did not commit all because it would hurt the old lady feeling YEA RIGHT I pleaded not guilty end of story NO If I was not Maori it would have should have not even made it to court muppets. I found out later that these people had a long history of being bad EMPLOYERS Ka pai to the twins and their father for training to become the next great Maori pool players Ka kite ano

  37. Eco Maori 37

    Kia ora The AM Show The good leftys on Thestandard taught Eco Maori about how a royal commission enquiry works it takes the spotlight off the ISSUE it will take 2 to 3 years by then everyone will have forgotten the issue. The outcome will be there was a couple of problems but nothing to worry your petty fleece about sheep no problem with this system YEA RIGHT.
    You would think that that district health would have security escort our nurses to there vehicles COME ON protect our Wahine.
    Hate speach needs to be censuse and stop in its tracks people are like sheep and then you have the Crowd effect on people can very easily be lead to do dumb shit they would never do when not in a crowd stop the HATE.
    A lot of neanderthal ball at that golf course A.
    Its good to see you don’t mind a bit of criticism Graham. I Back the importants of community coaches are for our tamariki the Graham Lowes programme for community coaching. I agree don’t try and be someone else be yourself.
    I say ban it that and that was my solution to duncans question a ban for 50 years.
    Yes the word terrorist was used as a weapon against mulslim culture people a word to distracted people from what the rIGHTHAND was is stealing I have made this statement a few times.
    Yes I try not to moley cuddle our Mokopunas I won’t let them walk to the shops tho I do teach them how to clean up after themselves I also don’t override there parents choice to a point my tamariki would have to do something really stupid before I would step in they are not Dumb. Ka kite ano

  38. Eco Maori 38

    Crap Artifical Intelligents could have found the issue in Christchurch but it the problem is on the moon and the microscope in pointed to the Pacific trenches you won’t find the problem looking at everyone that is not of the superior class.
    Artificial intelligence can hack election I will be able to find the alt right redneck just spinning to cover the big tech companies asss over that idiots Video Ana to kai

  39. Eco Maori 39

    I can see the sandflys are trying to bribe some people to attack me in the street I told you that they are dirty REDNECKS

  40. Eco Maori 40

    Here you go Whanau a suppremist view lets see we subsidise there fuel there power when theres a drought they get hand outs the avarage person who works at The Ware House will pay more TAX than a mulity million dollar farm owner they got 400 million to farm unstainabley down south they got 20 million dollar farms given to them for a fraction of the value of the land that should have been RETURN TO MAORI thats why bill and shonky changed the laws so framers could have a lollie scramble and stop maori from getting our whenua back .
    I know of one ex civil servent got his start farming running the family farm his greatgrandfather got gifted the land when he got back from war Maori got jackshit we did show THE world THAT we have MANA he boasted about a cash crop for he grew for his spending money have a guess what that was you got cash crop his favourait colour is blue he treat us maori like shit looking down his stuck up nose Ana to kai
    A regional farming representative has ruffled feathers by saying the Government will use tax reforms to pay for “useless” beneficiaries, using farmers like ATMs.ka kite ano
    P.S the farmers m8 turn a blind eye to these white mens cash crops a maori person just has to smell like it and in the hinaki jail Thats how corupt this system is and there more Ma te wa


  41. Eco Maori 41

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

    You See why I am

  42. Eco Maori 42

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  43. Eco Maori 43

    Kia ora Newshub I see the spies were pressureing Muslims to spy on their fellow Muslims the same as they are doing to my Whanau this information was from Prime News.
    Ka pai for our Prime minister voyage to China that will settle a lot of nerves in Aotearoa.
    Thanks from Eco Maori for the Hawaii gift of a lay? For world peace I have the same opinion of Peter Tosh on that subject now. White Wash that’s all Im going to say on that subject. Human caused Global Warming gives Tawhirirmate more power to hold more water that = more flooding hope not to much carnage is going to happen down south.
    That’s the way Cook Mana Wahine you are going to run a around the world yacht race cool all the best. Ka kite ano

  44. Eco Maori 44

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News ‘I’ that was well received the gift of A lie from the Hawaians many thanks to Our close cousin from Hawaii.
    Yes the housing short that ational caused is getting worse I will be whare less because of the sandflys cheating shits.
    Ka pai to North land IWI for honoring there great leader and kaumatua Sir Heke Busy he deserves the Houner we must cherish all our kaumatua.
    I say Maori art has meaning history houner and is beautiful in my EYES. Ka pai Tekura all the best in your journey up your ladder of life Ka kite ano P.S I want EQUAL RIGHTS like Peter Tosh Bob Marley Eddie Grant all great prophets in their times they should have still been with US.

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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government backs critical health research
    Research into some of New Zealanders’ biggest health concerns including cancer, diabetes, and heart disease is getting crucial support in the latest round of health research funding, Health Minister Andrew Little announced today. The funding, awarded through the Health Research Council of New Zealand, covers 31 General Project grants ($36.64 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Bay of Islands hospital facilities to bring services closer to home
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Andrew Little have joined a ceremony to bless the site and workers for Phase Two of the redevelopment of the Bay of Islands Hospital in Kawakawa today. The new building will house outpatients and primary care facilities, as well as expanded renal care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago