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Open Mike 23/04/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 23rd, 2018 - 149 comments
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149 comments on “Open Mike 23/04/2018 ”

  1. The Chairman 1

    Unlike the Labour Party’s disappointing acceptance, it’s good to see the Greens are opposing the latest air strike on Syria.

    • Sacha 1.1

      blah blah Syria blah.

      Can someone at least set out what you plan to do about it in our NZ context.

      • The Chairman 1.1.1

        Perhaps more will vote Green as a result.

        • Sacha

          I do not mean you or your comment specifically. Just sick of the topic being raised ad nauseum without practical local relevance.

          • The Chairman

            Highlighting Labour and the Green’s stance gives it local relevance.

          • mauī

            Be the change you want to see.

            • Sacha

              The change I want to see is less obsession with one topic in these general posts. How do you suggest I ‘be’ that?

              I’ve been ignoring it for weeks and all I see is endless bickering, no attempts to make it relevant to NZ labour movement politics, wasting of moderators’ time and reduction of the other voices willing to brave the resulting swamp.

              • adam

                It is quite relevant actually, it shows up the natural issues we have in dealing with labour movement issues in NZ.

                The first is internationalism, and if people are engaging with the concept in modern and classical sense. Do people have a internationalist outlook, or is it all tribalism?

                The second is the East-West divide or North-South – Money-No money, Or Race/Class divide.

                The third, is a relationship with the dominant power in society and our relation to their mouth pieces, the modern media.

                I could go on.

                • Sacha

                  Thanks. I’d welcome that perspective being explicitly added to all discussions here about far-off wars. Would make a pleasant change from the disconnected bickering.

            • The Chairman

              I am. But it’s good to see the Greens (in this instance) are voicing it. More need to get in behind them.

              IF more on the left voiced our concern with Labour’s acceptance, perhaps we’d encourage them to implant the change we want.

    • Jenny 1.2

      Chairman, in my opinion, you are a Right Wing troll

      • The Chairman 1.2.1

        Why is that, Jenny?

        • Jenny

          I admit, I could be reading you wrong Chairman. It is just that I thought your comment added nothing to the debate over Syria, and was just an opportunist attempt to take advantage of the obvious split in the Left over Syria to start a flame war.

          The other reason that I thought you are right Wing is your role in this debate HERE, where I may have mistakenly lumped you in with commenters veutoviper and McFlock who seem to be of the firmly held opinion, that contracts made with oil companies are more sacred than human life or the protection of the biosphere.

          But again I could be wrong. And if I so I do apologise.

          So I will take the time to answer the implied questioning of the Labour Party contained in your statement.

          The Chairman 1
          23 April 2018 at 6:47 am
          Unlike the Labour Party’s disappointing acceptance, it’s good to see the Greens are opposing the latest air strike on Syria.

          Personally I don’t think the Labour Party’s “acceptance” of the latest air strike on Syria was “disappointing” at all. In fact I think it was hard headed, and principled.

          I think that the Labour Party struck the right balance, they didn’t give their full support to these air strikes, which must have taken some courage when every other country we align with gave their full support. But they accepted the need for them.

          In my opinion the Labour Party’s current nuanced position on Syria, is very similar to that held by the late Jo Cox, assassinated by a neo-nazi sympathiser.



          Cox called on the UK to use it’s airforce to make humanitarian air drops. She also supported a no fly zone. But Cox refused to vote for airstrikes on Syria.

          Cox campaigned for a solution to the Syrian Civil War.[20] In October 2015, she co-authored an article in The Observer with Conservative MP Andrew Mitchell, arguing that British military forces could help achieve an ethical solution to the conflict, including the creation of civilian safe havens in Syria.[21] During that month Cox launched the All Party Parliamentary Friends of Syria group, becoming its chair.[22][23] In the Commons vote in December to approve UK military intervention against ISIL in Syria, Cox abstained because she believed in a more comprehensive strategy that would also include combatting President Bashar al-Assad and his “indiscriminate barrel bombs”.[20] She wrote:

          By refusing to tackle Assad’s brutality, we may actively alienate more of the Sunni population, driving them towards Isis. So I have decided to abstain. Because I am not against airstrikes per se, but I cannot actively support them unless they are part of a plan. Because I believe in action to address Isis, but do not believe it will work in isolation.[24]

          Andrew Grice of The Independent felt that she “argued forcefully that the UK Government should be doing more both to help the victims and use its influence abroad to bring an end to the Syrian conflict”.[25] In February 2016, Cox wrote to the Nobel Committee praising the work of the Syrian Civil Defense, a civilian voluntary emergency rescue organisation known as the White Helmets, and nominating them for the Nobel Peace Prize: “In the most dangerous place on earth these unarmed volunteers risk their lives to help anyone in need regardless of religion or politics”. The nomination was accepted by the committee, and garnered the support of twenty of her fellow MPs and several celebrities, including George Clooney, Daniel Craig, Chris Martin and Michael Palin. The nomination was supported by members of Canada’s New Democratic Party, who urged Stéphane Dion, the country’s Foreign Affairs Minister, to give his backing on behalf of Canada.[26][27]

          Cox, a supporter of the Labour Friends of Palestine & the Middle East,[28] called for the lifting of the blockade of the Gaza Strip.[29] She opposed efforts by the government to curtail the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement, and said “I believe that this is a gross attack on democratic freedoms. Not only is it right to boycott unethical companies but it is our right to do so.”[30]



          • The Chairman

            A right wing troll and flame war instigator? Your opinion of me is totally incorrect, Jenny.

            The intent of my initial comment/post was to publicly give the Greens a pat on the back while expressing my disappointment with Labour. Presenting an opportunity for us to discuss the two stances taken.

            As for your opinion regarding Labour’s acceptance stance, I have to say I disagree. Opting for the middle ground, the Government lacked the courage to take a firm stance either way. Disappointing those that wanted to see the Government offer more support while also disappointing those that wanted to see the Government oppose it.

          • veutoviper

            Jenny I have only just caught up with your claims above that The other reason that I thought you are right Wing is your role in this debate HERE, where I may have mistakenly lumped you in with commenters veutoviper and McFlock who seem to be of the firmly held opinion, that contracts made with oil companies are more sacred than human life or the protection of the biosphere.

            What a load of bullshit. Back in that discussion on the Government’s decision to not allow any new oil and gas exploration permits but continue those already approved linked to under “HERE”, my comment was simply that:

            “As The Chairman and Pat have said, to avoid those holding current permits which go out for years from suing the NZ Government (ie taxpayers) for probably hundreds of million of dollars, if not billions, for breach of contract, lost earnings etc etc .”

            That is a ridiculous long bow that you have drawn from a simple statement pointing out the likely costs of breaching those existing oil and gas exploration contracts, to claiming that I, for one, “seem to be of the firmly held opinion, that contracts made with oil companies are more sacred than human life or the protection of the biosphere.”

            I am strongly against any further oil or gas exploration on land in NZ or elsewhere, or anywhere in the worldwide marine environment due to the damage already done. And I was – and am still totally angry – that those exploration contracts were ever let in the first place by previous NZ governments of any hue or political persuasion.

            But some of us here actually live and work/or have worked in the real world – not on some idealistic planet like some of you do.

            If the existing contracts were thrown out and the NZ Government sued, those milllions/billions of dollars would have to come from somewhere.

            Where do you suggest – the health budget, the social security/welfare budget, delaying essential infrastructure like rebuilding the railways, conservation budget, etc, etc?

            It is those sort of false assumptions, and false equivalences that led me to decide not to reply to your original reply to me at the time where you tried to make an equivalence to the aboliiton of slavery etc.

            But that claim of yours in your comment above as to my beliefs etc is a step too far. I would love it if we could stop all existing oil and gas exploration right this minute but realism dictates otherwise – and even people like James Shaw seem to understand that.

        • greywarshark

          Good on you Jenny. But the Chairman is playing a persona of being a cool, superior, informed commenter bringing intelligence and order to the children’s playpen. From that elevated position and personal opinion behind it, every complaint, disagreement or comment is grist for more microscopic dissection of the reaction, questioning disdainfully, word by word. It will go on for ever. Occasionally there will be an apparently thoughtful comment usually though at an acute angle towards RW. Do not regard this as a trend!

          Waste of time and space and thought power engaging with this robot-like person. It could be a prototype for automated responses to drive direction on vox populi like this one instead of people reading, thinking, discussing and learning from each other for greater understanding across the polity.

          Think Star Trek ” In particular we see the Vogon say “Resistance is Useless” and the Borg say “Resistance is Futile”.”

      • savenz 1.2.2

        Considering the Chairman votes the Greens a weird comment, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

        • McFlock

          That’s their claim. If true, it makes their incessant “concern” quite curious – with voters like that, the Greens don’t need enemies.

          • savenz

            Well you can be a Green supporter and be critical of their direction in particular when for some inexplicable reason they go from 11% to 6% – clearly the cheerleaders egging them on are not exactly working in the Greens best interests.

            We also live in a democracy so we can actually disagree with political decisions – but in the case of the Chairman – he is supporting the Greens decision on Syria. Therefore the attack on the Chairman, seems to be more of a concern trolling on behalf of people who don’t support the Greens attacking the person who does support the Greens pretending he/she doesn’t… weird.

            • In Vino

              Lord, have you seen many of Chairman’s concern-ridden comments? He has given himself away many times, but persists in pretending to be genuine. Jenny is the lastest in a long list of people who have twigged.

              • savenz

                Totally disagree, if Greens had taken notice of what Green supporter criticism was telling them, then they might not be in the position hey are today. To be a cheerleader when a political party is going down the toilet for votes, is not a good idea. Be the friend that tells them, not a good idea!

                I voted Greens last time too (for party vote) but very grudgingly because I thought they had screwed up big time, but wanted to make sure Greens made over 5%.

                I wasn’t worried so much the Metiria issue, but a whole range of things that made it more about the Green MP’s rather than about the Green Party.

            • McFlock

              Criticism from “supporters” is usually constructive. And if the circumstances just prior to last election are “inexplicable” to you, you weren’t paying attention.

              FWIW, I voted for the Greens last time.

              • tracey

                I agree. It is NATS voters who rarely criticise their lot… that is not a strength, imo

                • savenz

                  Natz don’t believing in critical thinking but they have got diversion down to a fine art.

              • The Chairman

                In this instance, McFlock it’s not whether or not you voted Green, it’s whether or not you support their stance on this matter?

                • McFlock

                  On the contrary, that binary is your construct. I’m sure it’s purely coincidental that phrasing it in that way emphasises division between coalition partners.

                  To steal a term from Ardern, I accept the positions of both parties, and I respect and understand the basis for their decisions. I believe both parties have made good-faith decisions based on the particular situation they are in. I don’t know that I would do anything different to Labour if I was the major governing party, and if I were in the Greens’ position I’d probably feel more free to express a stronger opinion.

                  So stick your concern up your arse.

                  • The Chairman

                    “I accept the positions of both parties”

                    Very fence sitting but fair enough.

                    As you can see, we both vote Green, yet our opinions differ. While I can understand Labour’s position, I don’t accept or agree with it. I’m more aligned with the Greens stance.

                    It would be interesting to see how many Labour supporters fully agree with the Government’s stance.

                    The Government must have felt they could get away with taking this middle ground stance. Hence, if their supporters oppose this, they need to voice their disappointment.

                    And while you accept the position of both parties, which do you support?

                    As for your remark: “stick your concern up your arse.”

                    What are you on about? I haven’t raised a concern.

                    • McFlock

                      Your language is the same as always: “support” vs “oppose”. “Fully agree” vs “don’t accept”. Urging people to “voice their disappointment”. Saying the government is trying to “get away with” something.

                      Here’s a bombshell for you: the Greens don’t agree with Labour’s position, but they accept it. Despite your attempts to sow discord, they’re not walking away from the coalition, are they?

                      And no, my position isn’t fence-sitting. My position is that this government has potential to be a great government, with all parties involved. So really, the distinction between “accepting” the fact that the yanks are going to bomb folks and impotently opposing this state of nature is pretty pointless. Our government probably needs both things to be said.

                      If Ardern spoke strongly against it, Trump would get fucked off and hold a grudge. That might bite us later. But the Greens don’t expose us to that level of diplomatic friction, so they can speak more strongly. The lack of National-level enthusiastic support suggests to me that the Greens could well have been saying what Ardern would have liked to have been able to say.

                      As to the latest airstrike on Syria, I don’t like it. But as I’ve said before, I can’t decide whether I don’t like it because it was an unsanctioned trilateral attack on a sovereign nation, or whether I don’t like it because it was intentionally ineffective when they should have been genuinely trying to kill Assad and destroy his military infrastructure for the last 6 years. But this strike was just the bullshit of both worlds.

                    • Incognito

                      It would be interesting to see how many Labour supporters fully agree with the Government’s stance.

                      Huh!? Aren’t you privy to plenty of anecdotal evidence, feedback and the Greens’ internal polling?

                      As McFlock has already done a superb job of explaining it to you I won’t have to add much.

                      You don’t seem to understand the consensus approach of the Greens, which does not rely on “fully agree[ing]” or similar absolutes.

                      The Greens think and operate more in a holistic integrated way, at multiple levels, not in black & white or Left & Right.

                      You may not also agree with your spouse, for example, but you still accept them and you won’t express your disappointment in the hope (or with the intention) that they would change their ways so that you won’t get disappointed again in future.

                  • The Chairman

                    It’s no bombshell to me that the Greens accept Labour’s position. It’s basically what I pointed out to Pat below. The thing is, although the Greens accept Labour’s position, they don’t share it.

                    Sure, the Green’s voicing their stance doesn’t expose us to the same level of diplomatic friction, but you seem to be saying you support our Government kowtowing to Trump to avoid any potential friction. Care to clarify? And while kowtowing to Trump may avoid diplomatic friction, it would paint us as a bit of a pushover on the international stage.

                    If we were to oppose, our opposition couldn’t be that impotent if it were to bother the States enough to create friction.

                    And opposing wouldn’t be pointless, especially if it grew Labour’s support. For me, Labour’s acceptance is another in the list of reasons not to vote for them. Wonder how many others from the left feel the same way? So while Labour may have avoided diplomatic friction, I’m sure their stance has created friction and a divide amongst a number of their own supporters.

                    • McFlock

                      Kowtowing? You are obviously unaware of the reactions by the aussies or the nato states. They actively supported it. NZ is almost the odd one out amongst western nations in merely “acceptin” them.

                      NZ opposition would have been impotent in that we would not have been able to get trump to avoid or even merely ameliorate the response. It could have pissed him off, though. Whether the latter is a bad thing needs some complex analyses, but friction is not it’s own reward or a sign of power. Only internet jerks think that.

                      As for growing Labour’s support, thanks for your concern but I reckon they’ll be ok. Especially if they actually have a decent budget and start building a hospital or two.

        • The Chairman

          Indeed, savenz (

      • The Fairy Godmother 1.2.3

        He does show a lot of concern which doesn’t quite ring true when considering his other posts. The definition of this is concern trolling. I tend to just scroll on by.

    • Gabby 1.3

      Got in quick with the wedgie there chairy.

    • Enough is Enough 1.4

      Can you point me to where Labour supported it?

    • James 1.5

      I think if you look at Jacindas comment it is the Nee Zealand government who accept it – not labour (who have not said a thing)

      • The Chairman 1.5.1

        Labour are part of the NZ Government. In fact, they have the majority vote within the NZ Government.

        • James

          Yes – but she wasn’t commenting for labour she was commenting on behalf of the government

          • The Chairman

            “She was commenting on behalf of the government”

            The vast majority of the Government come from Labour. Thus, she wouldn’t make such a comment if Labour disagreed.

      • The Chairman 1.6.1

        Not at all.

        As you can see, the Greens disagreed with Labour and yet the coalition hasn’t fell apart.

        The tactic is to scare the Greens into submission, costing them their identity, thus weakening their support. Potentially costing Labour a coalition partner come next election.

        Sad that some from the left are falling for it.

        Good to see the Greens haven’t totally fallen for it.

        • Sacha

          Whose tactic?

          • The Chairman

            It’s a right-wing tactic. Devised of two prongs. Say nothing and risk losing your identity as a result of failing to speak up or speak up and risk being painted as divided.

  2. Jenny 2

    “We have made no announcements about ending coal, and we certainly haven’t done any work,” she told Q+A.

    “What I’m saying is there are no plans to do that. We haven’t done anything.”


    “We haven’t done anything” ?

    And this despite a petition from climate change groups calling on her to take a stand on this issue.


    At a time when our government is claiming that climate change is our generation’s “nuclear-free moment,” and has recently said that there will be no new coal mines on conservation land, it must say no to this mountaintop removal. Without access to this precious DOC land, the mine is unlikely to go ahead.

    Hon Dr Megan Woods (Minister of Energy and Resources) and Hon Eugenie Sage (Minister of Conservation), have the power to stop this mine.

    Call on Megan Woods and Eugenie Sage to live up to their words, and pull the plug on this dirty and short-sighted project. Sign the petition here:




  3. Puckish Rogue 3


    Deborah Hill Cone: Why does Clarke Gayford bug me?

    Not quite sure what the point of this article is, is it for click bait purposes, is it the first shots in the rumours swirling or did she just have to submit something before the deadline and this is the best (worst) she could come up with?

    • tc 3.1

      You can smell the fear rising in the owned msm.

      JA/CG with baby on board blows the smile n wave snake oil bansksta routine that NACT spent years developing out of the water.

      National went for a younger, dimmer, outwardly nastier version of Key in contrast.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1



        ‘He went on to complete a Bachelor of Arts in political science and history, and a Bachelor of Laws (Hons) at the University of Auckland.’

        ‘During this time, he took leave to travel to the United Kingdom to study at the London School of Economics, and later to complete a postgraduate law degree at St Catherine’s College, Oxford;’

        Hes hardly what you’d call dim

        • Incognito

          I think they may have been referring to the dimmer ’aura’.

          • Puckish Rogue

            Oh dear lord

            • patricia bremner

              Simon Bridges may be well educated, but he appears low in social and emotional intelligence and lacks individuality, so he comes across as a cardboard cut out of Key.

            • Incognito

              By that I meant charisma or personality, obviously.

            • greywarshark

              Simon might be your lord – good luck with that – his educational qualifications haven’t fitted him to be a political leader of the sort we want, and urgently need, in NZ. A NZ that is a well functioning country where citizens are treated fairly with equality and able to work and support themselves in a vital domestic economy.

              • tracey

                Dont underestimate the Nat machine grey. He is in bigtime training. They have a template and they are using it again. Having some in the media lead a different angle of attack is not new, while the new leader trains and has no dirt on his hands.

                • greywarshark

                  The political game is bigger than the All Blacks I guess Tracey. The team all well paid and very hard to shake down and keep down from the elevated position on the league table they had fashioned for themselves (in a penthouse perhaps).

                  Labour having done so will have to watch in any ruck that no-one gets their ear bitten off or worse. Watching your back when on the field is axiomatic – to ensure that an axe doesn’t land there!

        • Ovid

          Hell, I have a law degree and I assure you, I can be pretty dim. A quick scan over The Standard’s archives could tell you that.

        • savenz

          There is a difference between a questioning mind and one that is very good at repeating information they have learnt. I’m pretty sure that that Simon is more the type to excell at repeating what he’s been taught.

          Also those with impressive CV’s seem to somehow be falling into a hybrid intellectual but idiot class (a new right version), an affliction where seemingly extremely well educated individuals somehow have almost zero practicality or ability to solve a problem.

        • McFlock

          That was then. This is now.

          • Puckish Rogue


            • McFlock

              The guy is an arse. If shouty is the best he can do, he’s an idiot.

              • Tamati Tautuhi

                The guy has little real world experience and even less common sense. Definitely a monkey in a suit like Key however monkeys are more practical? ?

        • tracey

          I get confused PR, do Nats now love people who spend a lot of time at University? I know he was a Prosecuter, and worked briefly in a firm but real world? C’mon you guys ridicule lefties with far less academic bullshittery

          • Puckish Rogue

            Well have a nice lie down and a cup of tea and i’m sure you’ll feel more with it 😉

    • Ed 3.2

      Yesterday duplicity Allen
      Today Hill Cone

      The msm have been given their marching orders.
      And they have large mortgages.
      So forget any principles.
      Guns for hire.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.2.1

        No I don’t think so, this is quite blatant which is more of a left wing way of doing things.

        Nationals usually a bit more subtle about it

        • Incognito

          So, subtle is a euphemism for secretive & conniving. Fair point 😉

          • Puckish Rogue

            You might very well think that; I couldn’t possibly comment

            • Incognito

              I clarified your comment hence it is about your thinking, not mine. Stating a fact or making an observation it does not logically follow that one agrees with or accepts it …

      • AB 3.2.2

        Not so sure it is that orchestrated in this case. The topic of every Hill Cone ‘piece’ is Hill Cone herself, ultimately. This fits the pattern rather well.
        Mostly I am just envious – not an emotion I suffer from much – but oh! how I wish I could rake in good money from just dashing off any old shite from 8:00-8:30 in the morning and then go fishing or gardening for the rest of the day. Bliss!

        • Incognito

          I agree that her pieces are mostly like self-therapy, one way or another. Personally, I think she’s miles ahead of HDPA in the quality of her writing.

          • Anne

            Personally, I think she’s miles ahead of HDPA in the quality of her writing.

            Yes she is but despite her occasional protestations to the contrary, I’m always mindful of her former right-wing views. It is my experience that leopards never really change their spots.

            • Incognito

              I don’t have a problem with right-wing views per se; I do have a problem with RWNJs, dogmatic & rigid, arrogant & patronising, major lack of self-awareness and effects on others, and people who are inconsiderate and refuse to say sorry.

          • Carolyn_Nth

            She’s critical of the fact that men like Gayford get accolades for doing something women have done without applause for centuries.

            Gayford doesn’t look smug to me, more he looks a bit like a fish out of water, who hasn’t really adjusted to his new role so far – it may take time.

        • Tamati Tautuhi

          Has Deborah Hill Cone got “green eyes” perhaps ?

    • Andy 3.3

      I’m surprised the article isn’t breaching the the law and is still up.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.3.1

        What law do you think its breaching?

        • alwyn

          Insufficient fawning.
          If that isn’t against the law Winston will certainly make it so when he officially takes charge. “So I suggest you should watch it Sunshine”. Winston will soon be the law.

          • Barfly

            Paranoia? Catastrophisation ? Trolling ? …..Shrug who cares.

            • alwyn

              I didn’t actually care at all under I saw this wonderful word in your comment. I had never seen or heard it before and I had to look it up.
              Thank you for putting another glorious word into my vocabulary. Now I just have to find a real reason to use it.

    • Hooch 3.4

      Presumably she didn’t have a problem with max key

    • joe90 3.5

      Danyl Mclauchlan unpacks Deb’s concern that Gayford’s first name ends with the letter “e”.


  4. Incognito 4

    This was a nice piece that includes and touches upon many points of interest here on TS: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/102921492/why-is-the-news-so-negative-exploring-constructive-journalism

    A wee teaser:

    Haagerup, who founded the Constructive Institute, spoke of how many journalists think the goal of good journalism is to be critical, when in fact the goal should be to inform people in order for people to make up their own minds. Being critical was simply a tool to do that, not the goal, and journalists had mixed that up.

    Also note that this is thanks to 17 Stuff staff awarded company scholarships this year. Money & time well spent I’d think.

  5. Ovid 5

    This is a great retrospective looking at the Hobbit law

  6. savenz 6

    Can compost help agriculture as well as climate change? I’m not sure what became (if anything) of NZ supposed involvement in world climate change reduction by looking at science and technology, but here seems to be a study that could be investigated further and trialled in NZ.

    “California has about 56 million acres of rangeland, the single largest type of land use in the state. If compost made with manure was applied to just 5 percent of that area, they calculated, it would offset emissions from about 80 percent of the state’s agricultural sector — all the cows raised, crops grown, fertilizer applied and tractors driven in California. Much of that offset came from diverting manure from festering lagoons — where it releases methane and nitrous oxide into the atmosphere — into compost, a one-time benefit. But the ongoing drawdown of carbon dioxide from enhanced grass growth could be important, too. If you treated 41 percent of the state’s rangeland, Silver told me, carbon pumped into the earth by photosynthesis might render the entire agricultural sector of the world’s sixth-largest economy carbon-neutral for years to come.”


    • “compost made with manure” – I wonder what they mean by that? Compost is generally plant-based, not manure-based. Compost making; hot composts especially, produce lots of heat and various gases; not ideal if reducing both is your aim. Cold composts, where time does the work, are probably better, though out-basing is still a thing. My preference would be for direct application of plant material and animal manures to the surface of the soil; I suspect the processes that happen at soil level are different to those that occur in a constructed heap; often it’s the details that make all the difference. Perhaps someone has details of what is released from forest floor litter degrading. I think a managed woodland, one where fungi are nurtured and charcoal produced etc. is the best model around. Masses of cow dung produced by farmed animals (as in California) dug from lagoons! or whatever was to be processed, I expect a methane recovery system would be better than anything else. Here in New Zealand we apply sloppy cow sh*t to pastures through slurry spreaders and irrigation systems, but it’s far from ideal; the problem is the cow shed/milking shed – if cows were out and about all the time there wouldn’t be the problem (different problems, but not the “must move this mountain of sh*t problem).

      • adam 6.1.1

        Robert, what about using the keyhole garden method to deal with the excess sh*t?


        No wait, scratch that… We could never make enough of them.

      • savenz 6.1.2

        read the article…

        also watched an interesting article last night about the US putting back prairie grass and bison, also took in carbon and created a haven for flora and fauna… grass based and non intensive farming of grazing animals for example could be used to store carbon… something NZ needs to think about as we go towards very intensive, soil destructive and use of supplementary feed like Palm kernel … the opposite of good carbon practises… there is clearly better ways to managed farmed animals – NZ should be looking at better options, not burying our heads in the sand or increasing our carbon outputs!

  7. Carolyn_Nth 7

    I’m needing to clear my history and cache almost daily on TS lately – get a bad request notice.

    I also don’t have an edit button around the same time, as for my last comment on Micky’s capitalism post – wanted to correct a grammatical error.

    firefox on both mac and pc.

    • tracey 8.2

      You and she may miss the point. As a highly paid Rugby professional, he has clauses in his contract about bringing the game into disrepute. Of course he can rant on the hell-headingness of gays all he likes, provided he resigns his current job and thereby the money first. he would have had a lawyer advise him before he signed the contract on what all the clauses meant…. turns out he just wants the ones that work for him.

      • Bewildered 8.2.1

        Problem is Au rugby union probably need Falou more than he needs them re who creates the values I suggest ending his contract would be
        more detrimental to aru than Falou , he has options and one of the few world class players the wallabies have that can draw and audience, hence why kids glove treatment

    • The Fairy Godmother 8.3


  8. “The last passenger pigeon, named Martha, died in 1914. It was the same summer that Archduke Franz Ferdinand took one in the gut. Since then, the Archdukes have been multiplying in secret, under different names and titles. Now they are the ones darkening the skies over many of the world’s cities. Now we are the ones darkening the skies, everywhere.”


    • spikeyboy 9.1

      Encapsulates everything wrong with the world and the exact attitude that has laid waste to so much that is beautiful.

  9. Robert Guyton 10

    “The last passenger pigeon, named Martha, died in 1914. It was the same summer that Archduke Franz Ferdinand took one in the gut. Since then, the Archdukes have been multiplying in secret, under different names and titles. Now they are the ones darkening the skies over many of the world’s cities. Now we are the ones darkening the skies, everywhere.”


  10. adam 11

    What amazes me is why has not the new government looked into the Panama Papers a bit more?

    The pacific countries we have very close relationships with, keep spewing up doggy information.

    Any chance we will see a independent enquiry? Probably not.


    • tracey 11.1

      One reason is that when the new rules (which Key et al said we didn’t need) came in, only a third of Trusts supplied the real name and address info required. The rest let their trusts lapse…

      • adam 11.1.1

        Indeed, but what about the 2/3rds who just went quite? Why did 2/3rds of trust who probably we’re doing somthing underhand, just get a free pass? And last but not least, where did they go?

    • Tamati Tautuhi 11.2

      Winston might get a bullet in the back of the head if he starts looking into the Panama Papers, just like he nearly did with the Wine Box Papers ?

      Probably does not want the drama especially when are up against a rigged Judiciary here in New Zealand ?

      Is it really worth the hassle when you are up against the Deep Dark State that is running NZ.

      Government in NZ are about the 3rd layer down in the hierarchy behind the Banks & Corporates ?

      • James 11.2.1

        “Is it really worth the hassle when you are up against the Deep Dark State that is running NZ.”

        ooh is Jacinda Part of this deep dark state or does she report to them. Directly or more of a dotted line thing?

  11. Kat 12

    Hooton on Nine to Noon this morning espousing the need for changing what prisons are about.

    “Prisons should be about inmates learning reading, writing and arithmetic then they take a shower and shave and be let out to get a job. Not for murder, rape or GBH convictions though.”
    Apparently he advised ACT on this as a potential policy in the past.

    I wonder if it has ever occurred to him that the proactive approach of meaningful govt investment in our education system and the reinstatement of a 21st century Ministry of Works would go a long way in solving the need for more prisons in NZ.

    • tracey 12.1

      I wonder if it has ever occurred to him that who he has supported and voted for during his voting lifetime have not wanted to do what works in prisons but what gets them votes? And his ongoing support and votes for them means they keep giving him what he doesn’t want?

      It sounds to me like Hoots has spent some time listening to Alex Swney, born-again swindler, who used to belong to ACT, ran for them in Tamaki, and went to prison cos he thought he wasn’t paid what he was worth, so just embezzled it.

      Having made sure he tied up his assets out of reach of IRD, he went to prison, his girls continued at private schools and he styled himself on Shawshank Redemption…. working in the library and teaching people to read and do yoga. Frankly I am surprised he taught anyone to read given he doesn’t usually stop to let anyone else speak.

      So the gormless 3 strikes and you’re out party now have members pretending to be astounded the system is broken? Just cos one of theirs went inside and has seen what it’s “really like”? Funny thing about privileged men, they cannot believe something until they or one of their ilk has experienced it.

      EVIDENCE based rehab and punishment would go along way to reforming many of our ills, but the votes… the VOTES!

      • McFlock 12.1.1

        It’s better than the senseless sentencing crowd who don’t seem to think that white businessmen should go to prison at all. Emery springs to mind.

        • tracey

          Is it? National and ACT voters have ensured we have a punitive, vengeful focussed system for decades. I have long suspected Simon Power’s early demise (he was often touted as a future PM) was because he wanted an evidence-based, bipartisan approach to our prison system and got yelled down by the “what about the law and order votes” crowd. The SST crowd must vote for someone, I suspect they loved the 3 strikes nonsense.

          ACT has provided by far the highest number of MP’s who have been found guilty of crimes. By some margin. Just saying.

    • ianmac 12.2

      Kat. I think Hooton’s comment was in the context of the Government needing to get we the people onside. If we saw the changes as Hooton outlined it would help to counter the shrill voices already screaming, “Do ya want murderers and rapists roaming the streets and climbing in your windows because of these wishy washy Labour Mps?”

      • Kat 12.2.1

        Ianmac. I heard it as Hooton suggesting what he thinks prisons should be focusing on, in short repositioning prisons as schools. Having these basic skills would be a perquisite to letting people out of prisons. Not that I disagree with upskilling people in prisons but I tend to agree with Tracey that the previous National/Acts govt vote grabbing and punitive policies towards crime is a major factor in why we have such high incarceration and those on remand have trebled since 2012.

  12. Tamati Tautuhi 13

    Winston might get a bullet in the back of the head if he starts looking into the Panama Papers, just like he nearly did with the Wine Box Papers ?

    Probably does not want the drama especially when are up against a rigged Judiciary here in New Zealand ?

    Is it really worth the hassle when you are up against the Deep Dark State that is running NZ.

    Government in NZ are about the 3rd layer down in the hierarchy behind the Banks & Corporates ?

  13. patricia bremner 14

    Sour Soper. Poor guy is in mourning. Several cracks about Jacinda flying high and innuendo about her friendship with Trudeau finally saying “she will come to earth back behind her desk in Parliament.”

    He and his wife are a sour pair.

    The surprise today was 10 out of 10 for Jacinda from Hosking’s wife, almost gracious!! Hosk will have a fit!!

  14. Morrissey 15

    If you thought Mihi Forbes would be an excellent addition
    to The Panel, you’re going to be very disappointed.

    RNZ National, Monday 23 April 2018, 4:10 p.m.
    Jim Mora, Mihi Forbes, Sam Johnson, Caitlin Cherry

    Johnson, a Young Nat, started the show by vapouring on about how Jacinda represents “generational change,” and then getting in a party-political kick in the head by insisting the rest of the Labour Party was not like her, and that there was going to be trouble for the government in the next six months. Then he said: “But whatever side of the political fence you are on, you should be very happy about the way the Prime Minister held herself.”

    Mihi Forbes vacuously endorsed Johnson’s words, saying something equally vapid about Jacinda and “the world stage.”

    Mihi Forbes has a well earned reputation as a straight talker and a courageous journalist. She could have made a difference to this usually substandard show. Sadly, she seems to have chosen the standard option for many women on this show: meekly agreeing with whatever Mora and the other guest say, no matter how asinine. Hell, they might as well have the egregious Lisa Scott on the show….

    Open mike 13/03/2015

  15. Morrissey 16

    Has Boris Johnson said anything about this yet?
    And if not, why not?


  16. OncewasTim 17

    ‘Plausible deniabilty’ in action.
    Thompson & clarke and government entities and their agents. Checkpoint is well on the way to the expose….but then there are also some of the other little nudge nudge wink wink activities between T&C and a public service that @Wayne assures us is impartial (see the weekend).
    Maybe part of Steven Joyce’s 11 billion hole will be the number of CEO’s and snr managemwnt in the public service who should rightfully be put on ‘gardening leave’as what should be the bleeding bloody obvious is investigated.
    We have become truly 3rd world. Some of the muppetry really astounds me ( going forward ).
    The question is now whether our exec branch of government will ekshully deal with our out-of-control admin wing in this grand pissing competition between the two.

  17. OncewasTim 18

    I think I just heard a DOC ‘official’ tell us that the services of T&C were still being used….despite being told ( from memory) that the SSC and ministers saying this was not on and should stip.
    As I listened to the reasons why their services were required, i had to ask myself WHY AREN’T THE NZ POLICE handling this? Afterall, that is their job!

    • spikeyboy 18.1

      My thoughts exactly. Have we really gone that far down the outsourcing road that the police no longer register as the right option?

      • OnceWasTim 18.1.1

        I’m afraid we have @spikeyboy – as I raise a toast with a dainty wee glass full of the best Matrinborough Chardonnay, whilst clutching my pearls and telling my partner how absolutely horrid it all is going forward.
        Worse still, many of TS commenters haven’t yet seen fit to make any sort of comment (one way or the other).
        At the very least I was hoping for an @ Anne or @ Patrician Bremner take on it all.
        An @ Ad or an @ Wayne’s take, I think I can already imagine.

        I wonder sometimes whether Labour and its coalition partners are masochistic, as in beat me beat me with some more ‘official’ lies and bullshit. The past record and
        current pushback hasn’t yet caused some Ministers to wake the fuck up!

        • tracey

          You could put a guest post together OW Tim. I am happy to put it up for you?

        • patricia bremner

          Sorry OncewasTim. A close friend just confided her daughter has stage 3 breast cancer.
          Everything else became a dull background roar.

    • tracey 18.2

      No wonder some are nervous about the breadth of backgrounds on the new group for Secret Services, some questions we all ask will now be asked and some of the skullduggery will need to be justified

  18. Jenny 19

    Israeli soldiers who obey orders to shoot children are the real victims here, says Israeli General

    Kia Ora Gaza, April 23, 2018

    “I know how these orders are given. I know how a sniper does the shooting. I know how many authorizations he needs before he receives an authorization to open fire. It is not the whim of one or the other sniper who identifies the small body of a child now and decides he’ll shoot. Someone marks the target for him very well and tells him exactly why one has to shoot and what the threat is from that individual. And to my great sorrow, sometimes when you shoot at a small body and you intended to hit his arm or shoulder, it goes even higher.”

    For “it goes even higher,” Fogel uses a Hebrew idiom also meaning “it costs even more.”

    In this chilling statement, in which a general talks about snipers targeting the “small body of a child,” Fogel makes crystal clear that this policy is premeditated and deliberate.

    While presenting unarmed Palestinian children as dangerous terrorists worthy of death, Fogel describes the snipers killing them in cold blood as the innocent, vulnerable parties who deserve protection.

    “We have soldiers there, our children, who were sent out and receive very accurate instructions about whom to shoot to protect us. Let’s back them up,” he says.

    • McFlock 19.1

      well, you know, they’re only following orders. That’s gotta be a defense, right? 🙄

    • Venezia 19.2

      Jenny…A horrific account. Israel is supported in these atrocities by the USA and all other nations who stay silent. An outrage to anyone with a smidgen of ethics.

    • tracey 19.3

      Good God!!

  19. Good morning Newshub Yes my spelling is—— but you know what they say about one skill being naturally missing another is enhanced ???????.
    Duncan you are behaving Honorably that was a good interview with Jacinda .
    Yes most of OUR Elderly sit at home isolated from society mean while the cost of everything keeps climbing which limits there food budget so they don’t get the right nutrition or exercise . I say we should include them in OUR society they have a lot of good knowledge and morels that should be past on to the Mokopunas thats how Maori used to be the Koro and Kuia looked after the Mokopunas while the able went to work get the Kaumatua is early child care and schools it would be beneficial to all.
    MJ I researched artificial sugars and the facts put me off them cancer causing agents in them yes I know I smoke my Nan smoked till she was 60 and lived to 93 thats a good innings.
    Its not racism untill you are the one feeling the effects of this human behavior and Eco Maori is differently feeling these effects the sandflys get a hint of me being scared of them and they step up the intimidation I am not scared of them as I have done nothing wrong and I have the skills my Tipuna bestowed on me.???????? here’s a link.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/103320304/kaumtua-disgusted-at-gallerys-efforts-to-show-colonial-painting-citing-racism Ana to kai Ka kite ano

    • tracey 20.1

      The old, the children, the disabled, the unwell and uncared for, the homeless, the low paid… the numbers of our vulnerable used to be small but increasingly their numbers are moving beyond being a mere “minority”.

      The antidote? We are told we must “grow the economy”. Well the economy has been growing for decades and yet… As long as many pretend that growing the economy is a panacea and thereby comfort themselves that as long as the economy grows things will be fine, we will continue to fail our vulnerable. Our vulnerable are who we are supposed to protect, not relegate to subsistence and essentially tell them they shoukd feel lucky they werent born in India.

  20. Newshub here is how we should be legislated to build all new Houses and buildings
    link below .

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/houses/102816839/applied-science-of-passive-houses . Wow is that how desperate they are flipping the Bird .
    Ana to kai Ka kite ano

    • tracey 21.1

      Sadly eco, 675000 plus land is way out of many kiwis hands. It was hard to tell from the article if land was included in the price or not. I suspect not.

      157 square metre house costing $675,000 is about $4300 per square metre. 

      I am all for passive houses but until the price plummetts it is a rich womans dream.

      FYI when we moved from Auckland to Christchurch ladt year we built new and tgat included 20 solar panels. Install and purchase of the panels and equipment was 135000.

      Batteries are not yet regarded by our supplier as worth their cost

    • eco maori 21.2

      Here you go a Lady with 2 children working and having a hard time putting a roof over there heads .I know some one in the same situation thanks to bill and shonky we have a major shortage of houses .Ka kite ano hears the link


      • eco maori 21.2.1

        Newshub Malissa The new British Royal baby boy congratulations Willaim an Kate .
        I say that Jacinda and Clarke are a cool couple and will be excellent parents Ka pai eh hoa yes the fish I was handling was over 35 years ago everything was in abundance and big in those days.
        Mike I have already commented on that painting you see I have been studying our tipuna and history I have read a lot of good storys about Tepuia she and Apirana Ngata built a lot of Marae and Trust farms and I would not agree to any of OUR boys going to war You see the nurturing instinct from a Great Mana Whine Tepuia .
        Yea the Kiwis Rugby League team is going for the best coach I remember all those going for the coachs job Toovey Hasler Daley they were all mean players back in the day Yea. the Mokos are here Ka kite ano

        • eco maori

          The Crowd Goes Wild Mulls and James I won’t comment on that team.
          Hows the eye and calf and the ratings you know Eco Maori is the flute Master .
          Kronfeld looks like he dosen’t like water lol ka kite ano P.S
          The IPL Cricket is awesome I like the way they (Play)

  21. greywarshark 22

    Tax reminder – have your say to the Tax Working Group. TS has talked and thought about it often enough and its failings at present. We could do so much better with the right shift – to the left of course.

    “The quick polls have been popular with more than 10,000 responses so far and it’s encouraging that a good proportion of those votes have been followed up with a submission.”

    Note: 10,000 responses so far – out of 4+ million taxpayers minus children not big enough to suck gobstoppers. It isn’t many really is it. Your input will be effective at some level so don’t miss out.


    The group’s website (https://taxworkinggroup.govt.nz) has also been updated to include thought-provoking videos and a quick comment facility. Longer, more detailed submissions are also welcomed and can be sent to submissions@taxworkinggroup.govt.nz.

    Explanatory from Scoop giving press release from 14 March 2018.

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