Open mike 23/06/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 23rd, 2020 - 137 comments
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137 comments on “Open mike 23/06/2020 ”

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  2. Dennis Frank 2
    23 June 2020 at 7:49 am

    Best of luck to Coromandel Watchdog: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/22-06-2020/why-were-taking-the-government-to-court-over-mining-in-the-coromandel/

    Greens vs Govt. Green parliamentarians will have to stand on the sidelines and applaud both sides.

    The first application from Oceana Gold to turn 178 hectares of farm land into a toxic dump was refused by the Eugenie Sage, the minister of land information, but then the Cabinet took her off the case. They handed it to Robertson and Parker who rubber stamped it. Sage had considered the loss of productive land, the increase in fossil fuels, risks of toxic dam failure and a range of social and economic issues. The second Crown decision only focused on its export potential and the jobs it would maintain.

    I wouldn't put it past Robertson to think like that, but if Parker did too then he's not as smart as he seems. Jobs & money is an insufficient basis for such a decision. I'd be surprised if the court doesn't decide on that rationale.

    Good on Catherine for her leadership initiative – I hope her analysis is correct. Just cos there's gold in them thar hills doesn't mean anyone has the right to destroy them to get it. Authorising foreign companies to do so seems even more loopy.

    Oceana Gold, a large multinational, wants to expand both within Waihi and into the coastal and conservation lands on the eastern side of the peninsula. This land includes beautiful forests, endangered species classified as taonga, and places people visit and revere.

    Oceana wants to buy the food producing land at Waihi to build a huge waste dump for the toxic tailings which would come out of these new mines. The toxic waste in mine tailings includes mercury, arsenic, zinc, cadmium, lead and many other persistent heavy metals. The proposed expansion puts so much at risk for so little benefit, except to this foreign company. The tailings dams, or “impoundments” as the industry like to call them, are earth dams with some rock reinforcing and they are legendary globally for leaking or collapsing. The long list of dam failures in a range of countries over the last few decades makes interesting reading.

    You bet. I've read about some of them in the past. Hard to believe these neoliberal buggers in the coalition remain determined not to learn the lessons…

    • Wayne 2.1
      23 June 2020 at 9:23 am

      It is not neo-liberalism to oppose what would have been the closure of the mine, with the loss of hundreds of jobs and the rapid decline of Waihi and Waihi beach. I recall what both these places were like before the mine.

      The issues considered by the Ministers would have been considered any time in the last 100 years had the issue come up, so neoliberalism (a favourite prerogative of the far left) can't be a factor.

      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 9:38 am

        Well it would be good to be able to read the govt's justification, eh? I wonder if anyone ever did a poll of the locals. Similar situation as on the West Coast down south, no doubt: a majority who think jobs beat the environment and a minority with the opposite view. Perhaps there's a suitable compromise, but the court case seems evidence that it hasn't happened yet.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2
        23 June 2020 at 4:40 pm

        The issues considered by the Ministers would have been considered any time in the last 100 years had the issue come up, so neoliberalism (a favourite prerogative of the far left) can't be a factor.

        The justification of these things is capitalism – how to make rich people richer. They then sell that destruction to the people by saying that it will create jobs and the people buy it because, by and large, they're living in poverty and only have one way to get an income which is to go along with the destruction.

      • Patricia Bremner 2.1.3
        23 June 2020 at 5:17 pm

        Wayne I lived in Waihi. We had Gadabouts shoe factory, Akrad Radio and TV factory, the school of mines became a mine museum,We had a helmet factory a cheese and milk factory, A large Ministry of works Depot etc. Waihi was full of work and life, including Farming and Kiwi fruit nearby. Blueberry farms and products, a Retirement home, a Retirement Village and hospital and good local shopping.

        The mine was an important employer, but not the only one. The problems started in Roger Douglas's days, and were multiplied by Ruth Richardsons' actions. Finally Waihi was made poorer by the open cast mining and royalties going to the Hauraki Council mainly, rather than to the locals initially. Waihi suffered lowered water tables dust and noise/vibrations, and a good deal of anxiety about the tailings earth dam.. growing and growing.

        Now there is anxiety about this being multiplied. Some homes have fallen in holes, or been bought to avoid court cases. The Gorge is shaky now, and an increase in road traffic won't improve that. So this decision is sadly employment and overseas earnings over communities and environment.
        Work needed will overide all aspects

    • Ad 2.2
      23 June 2020 at 4:00 pm

      That mine employs about 400 direct Waihi people, and about another 400 local subcontractors.

      That's in a town with a total population of 4,500 people.

      Coromandel tourism features the mine as a place to tour through, like all the other mines that have featured in Waihi's past:

      https://www.thecoromandel.com/towns/waihi/activities/culture-and-heritage/

      In fact mining heritage is the only reason anyone outside of Waihi goes to Waihi. They go cycling through mining stuff, and ride the Waihi-Waikno railway – a mining railway.

      Waihi is one of the founding centres of New Zealand's Labour Party and union movement.

      https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/black-tuesday/the-1912-waihi-strike

      The company contributes about $200,000 per your to local schools and preschools, and as a snapshot paid $255,000 in donations to local charities. Ain't no one replacing that if it goes.

      22% of their staff identify as Maori. Probably worth having a chat with the Ngai Tuwharetoa marae if you wanted to shut it down.

      So to be sure I like Minister Sage would object to mining on DoC land. I marched against it on Great Barrier under the previous government.

      But stopping mining in Waihi would simply kill the town. Within five years it would be as much a ghost town as Blackball or Waiuta.

      And of course in normal times you would expect the economy to absorb that. This isn't normal times, and they aren't coming back.

      It's not like they're gong to bring back the Pye Television factory either.

      Or Nambassa.

      This isn't a government that's going to kill this mine when we're heading for 10% unemployed, economy tanking, no local job alternatives, an average population age of almost 50, and no other life known.

      • Dennis Frank 2.2.1
        23 June 2020 at 4:10 pm

        Hm, okay, I see their thinking. Well done. It'll be interesting to see how the court handles the case anyway. Sometimes Greenies do get rather purist on an issue where compromise makes more sense, and that could be the situation here.

        Incidentally I checked out Blackball in my brand-new motorhome three years ago and was surprised to get a sense of it as developing place. Dunno why, but it was a definite impression. Maybe just folks renovating all over the place, rather than derelict…

        • Ad 2.2.1.1
          23 June 2020 at 4:13 pm

          Have you seen the streams of lycra-cyclists from Auckland coursing through the joint in summer? Mining trails the lot of them. Heritage is a weird thing.

          • Dennis Frank 2.2.1.1.1
            23 June 2020 at 5:33 pm

            Ah, but do the locals make money off them? If not, could be a viable alternative income stream. Wealthy Aucklanders supporting regional towns would be setting a good example to all…

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.2
        23 June 2020 at 4:54 pm

        But stopping mining in Waihi would simply kill the town.

        The problem with basing an entire town/society on an extractive industry is that, eventually, there is no longer anything to extract and the town/society dies anyway. See Nauru:

        The story of tiny Nauru, once one of the wealthiest states per capita in the world, is a tale of rapacious colonialism, epic mismanagement, and avarice.

        Australia, New Zealand and Britain had nearly exhausted the viable deposits of phosphate by 1968 when Australia granted Nauru sovereignty, leaving behind one of the world’s worst environmental disasters.

        It might look like a Pacific island paradise but, thanks to phosphate mining, its interior is a moonscape of jagged limestone pinnacles unfit for agriculture or even building.

        We really seem to be determined not to learn the lessons of the past so as to maintain our failed socio-economic system.

        It’s not like they’re gong to bring back the Pye Television factory either.

        It would be better if they did.

        • Ad 2.2.2.1
          23 June 2020 at 5:26 pm

          As you can see however Waihi is a town that has made the very best of its mining heritage. You should try those trails.

          New Zealand isn't Nauru. Nauru decided to turn itself into Australia's jail, and is one of the most corrupt nations on earth.

          Whereas Blackball learnt to make locally-sourced gourmet sausages.

          https://www.blackballsalami.co.nz/sausages.php

          • Draco T Bastard 2.2.2.1.1
            23 June 2020 at 7:56 pm

            As you can see however Waihi is a town that has made the very best of its mining heritage.

            Really?

            Hmmm…. But, you said:

            But stopping mining in Waihi would simply kill the town.

            So, which is it?

            If they've made the most of their mining heritage then stopping the mining won't kill the town.

            • JohnSelway 2.2.2.1.1.1
              23 June 2020 at 8:59 pm

              That’s a pretty dumb comment. You’ve assumed that Waihi makes as much money from presenting its mining heritage as it does from the mining itself.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                24 June 2020 at 1:31 am

                No I didn't. Ad implied that that was so through making ' the very best of its mining heritage.'

                My point all along is that, once all the gold runs out, the town will die. Their little touristy thing may keep a family going afterwards but that'd be about it. It won't save the town.

                So, if they want to save the town then they need to do something other than gold extraction.

        • Patricia Bremner 2.2.2.2
          23 June 2020 at 5:28 pm

          No not really, many who worked there died of cancer caused by the work conditions of the day.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    23 June 2020 at 8:13 am

    When a Fox News poll paints a right-wing candidate as a loser, he ought to know he's in deep shit, right? Is Trump capable of figuring it out? And taking the next step: "Hey, I'm a real cool leopard – I can change these spots!"

    In the head-to-head matchup, the poll finds Biden leads Trump by a 50-38 percent margin. That 12-point advantage is statistically significant, and up from Biden’s 8-point lead last month (48-40 percent).

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-biden-widens-lead-over-trump-republicans-enthusiastic-but-fear-motivates-dems

    He’s gonna have to pull finger to earn his second term. Winning from that far behind can't be done via complacency. Sure, it made sense to assume Biden would fail due to his innate inability, but the hotshot hasn't yet realised the same logic applies to him too – as long as he keeps misreading situations and ignoring his advisers.

    • peter 3.1
      23 June 2020 at 8:36 am

      Trump is capable of working it out. He's worked out it's a fake poll. He doesn't need advisers to tell him that.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 8:46 am

        Wouldn't surprise me one bit. Delusion, reality, what's the difference? The guy has a track record of assuming he can persuade others to accept his view. Trouble is, the poll conforms to the usual polsci standard, so the stats basis represents reality sufficiently to persuade informed observers. He really does need such people on board to secure a second term. Faced with a choice between two flakes, voters will go for the lesser evil. He'll get the second term only by seeming the lesser evil – sufficiently.

      • Tricledrown 3.1.2
        23 June 2020 at 10:09 am

        Any advisor that tells him the truth he fires

    • Chris T 3.2
      23 June 2020 at 3:40 pm

      Sleazy, racist, nutty old Biden, or Sleazy, racist, misogynist old Trump?

      How great must it be to be a US voter.

      Choices choices

    • Andre 4.1
      23 June 2020 at 9:04 am

      Easy mistake to make.

      Blumenthal's enthusiasm for attacking those trying to actually achieve realistic progressive politics and hold Drongo Unbrained accountable is very difficult to distinguish from enthusiasm for Wussolini himself.

      • AB 4.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 9:33 am

        "realistic progressive"

        A lifetime of disagreement and conflict is bound up in that little phrase….

        • Andre 4.1.1.1
          23 June 2020 at 9:49 am

          The point being that you have to actually get elected before you can then go on and do anything. Then when you do get elected, effective politics is a team activity – it's all about figuring out the compromises that turn a widely disparate collection of views and ideas into a workable package. Those are the points that seem to be missed or completely denied by anyone with a problem with the idea of "realistic progressive".

          • AB 4.1.1.1.1
            23 June 2020 at 11:31 am

            Sure – but undeniably that does tend to mean that tomorrow never arrives. It's maybe more productive to look at how (whether?) mass shifts in public consciousness are possible outside the domain of electoral politics, so that electoral politics is chasing to catch up, rather vainly trying to summon followers.

            • Andre 4.1.1.1.1.1
              23 June 2020 at 11:37 am

              It may be that there is an effective path to progressive change outside electoral politics.

              But the path followed by Blumenthal and his ilk certainly isn't it – they are much more acting as enablers of anti-progressive politics and action.

              • adam …
                23 June 2020 at 1:42 pm

                More lies and bs from you andre.

                No proof of course, that the best thing about your approach – you just make up any old bullshit about anyone you disagree with.

                • Andre …
                  23 June 2020 at 2:44 pm

                  You really haven't got a grasp of the very simple arithmetic involved in electoral politics, have you?

                  Every single voter that Blumenthal and his fellow travelers persuade to not vote for Biden or Clinton or whomever is the closest to actually being progressive is effectively a vote for Donasaurus Wrecks (or whoever else is the reactionary-du-jour). And every time one of the reactionaries gets in, the possibility of achieving anything remotely progressive slips ever further away, because of the need to undo the damage done before attempting to build anything.

                  Sure you can whine about lesser evil voting all you want in your displays of public political masturbation. But the simple electoral arithmetic is that refusing to vote for the lesser evil is explicitly choosing to enable the greater evil.

                  • Ad …
                    23 June 2020 at 4:11 pm

                    Jill Stein 2016

                  • adam …
                    23 June 2020 at 10:10 pm

                    So external pressure in politics means nothing to you…

                    I see it does, as you went on to bag Ralph Nader.

                    What a silly one dimensional puppet you are. If only politics worked like you hoped then the world would be all rainbows and unicorns.

                    In the real world politicians have to earn votes, not act like they deserve them. They also have to put up policy which counts.. And, here the real kicker it means nothing, unless there is ongoing pressure from the public. But baby wants to tell us political parties are the only answer – sad.

                    As for your strawman about lesser evil – yawn. You can lie to yourself all you like. That politics is broken, it only enables the right – that's it, now I see why you support it.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 June 2020 at 10:24 pm

                      The right are enabled bacause they'll vote for anyone under the Republican ticket. The left disempower themselves by pretending that "external pressure" can change the dems, so work against the dems every chance they get.

                      Sanders achieved more change in his 2016 campaign than any third party candidate because he applied internal pressure. He got people to join the dems and run in 2018, and that changed the game in 2020.

                      Being too left to support anyone will never make anyone try to get your vote. Politicians go for votes they might actually get. They tailor their policies and statements to those voters. If you're a lost cause for them, they won't travel an inch in your direction.

              • greywarshark …
                23 June 2020 at 4:08 pm

                I have seen this suggested before, or it may have been me, why don't we have a special post for the USA and that becomes separate and NZ politics is the default subject. It seems that there is more interest at watching the Tangerine Terror than our own peculiar brand of sweet and sour saucy.

                We need to watch our own eggs to see if they are hatching, all wise birds do this. The greywarblers have never got the hang of this and often enable a wotsisname (shining cuckoo I think) to come into the world, which then boots the other eggs and babies too I think, out of the nest. Damned interloper. So let's do better than greywarblers here, and look after our own pollies, and make sure the right ones get the crackers.

      • adam 4.1.2
        23 June 2020 at 9:35 am

        Love how when you got nothing Andre it's always with the personal attacks.

        Mind you when your such a parody of what constitutes a person on the left like yourself, it must be hard to go beyond you usual of spin, bullshit, gaslighting and lies.

        You could actually try socialism, hell I'd even take a dose of social democracy from you – as it would actually mean improvement in people's lives.

        But alas no, just more centrist bs gaslighting.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.2.1
          23 June 2020 at 3:10 pm

          "… it's always with the personal attacks." – who was/were the target(s) of Andre’s “personal attacks“?

          you['ve] got nothing
          your           [sic] such a parody of what constitutes a person on the left
          you[r] usual of spin, bullshit, gaslighting and lies

          Vehement objections to perceived personal attacks carry more weight when you don’t decend to ‘their’ level. And, for what it’s worth, I agree with Andre’s entertaining alternative labels for Trump.

  5. I Feel Love 5
    23 June 2020 at 8:48 am

    The FBI are investigating the noose that was left in Bubba Wallaces locker, Nascar bans the racist confederate flag, and someone leaves a noose in a black drivers locker room. Once probably have been written off as a "joke", this shows how things have changed. Just saw footage of all the other car drivers and mechanics walking behind Wallaces car down the track, very powerful.

  6. Incognito 6
    23 June 2020 at 8:59 am

    Some journalists should take a chill pill, which is a more than reasonable verdict. However, it fails to address the motivation of (some) journos to over-egg things. Still a good read though.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/ideasroom/2020/06/23/1243845/the-media-needs-to-calm-down

    • I Feel Love 6.1
      23 June 2020 at 9:17 am

      Wow! Now that's a journalist! And he's right, I'd go nuts stuck in a room all day, we should have more sympathy. And I thought that there obviously a crap load of people sticking to the rules, only a few breaking them. Did I hear right on the radio that there are 20,000 people currently in quarantine? If so, then wow.

      • Incognito 6.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 10:00 am

        It is just over 4,000 people in quarantine/isolation at present but they’re increasing capacity.

        I think the 20,000 is the total number of arrivals who have gone through the quarantine/isolation process, give or take a few. I’m sure the exact number is somewhere …

    • Dennis Frank 6.2
      23 June 2020 at 9:19 am

      Yeah, Jack is right to advise a more balanced view, and he makes the significant point that journos function as opinion leaders in the community. Thus they do have a moral responsibility to be fair in their analysis and commentary.

      I noticed there's also a worthwhile appraisal of the PM on Newsroom, from a marketing expert: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/ideasroom/2020/06/19/1238761/can-ardern-dance-her-way-to-a-second-term

      Ardern is brilliant at the dancing part of political management, but needs to get onto deliberating and designing ASAP, then convince us she is the best leader to discharge her new ideas and plans. If she doesn’t, she risks leaving herself and Labour open to attacks from National

      I agree with this analysis. She ought to try and take time out to meditate on how to display leadership more comprehensively during the campaign. Design of the recovery plan remains the essential missing component. I suspect brainstorming of that is already happening, but a shift toward more strategic thinking is needed, then a timeline to enact implementation.

      • francesca 6.2.1
        23 June 2020 at 9:33 am

        Yeah, meanwhile she's having to cope with and counter the relentless stories in the media still slamming her Covid response implementation .Less time having to be wasted on reassuring a public constantly alarmed by misleading media stories would be good

      • observer 6.2.2
        23 June 2020 at 10:13 am

        From that piece: "she still hasn’t defined what her vision for New Zealand is."

        John Key won 3 elections without ever articulating anything resembling a "vision". It's something that pundits pontificate on, and ordinary voters don't care about.

        • Dennis Frank 6.2.2.1
          23 June 2020 at 10:52 am

          Key won 3 elections without ever articulating anything resembling a "vision"

          A typical view from the leftist bubble. Rightists would have taken note every time he restated the necessity for continuance of business as usual. Mainstreamers were captivated by that vision after the gfc. It worked. Even amongst centrists.

          The reason corporates went global with vision statements in the early '90s was the effective social psychology outcomes they produce. I remember when TVNZ workshopped all that stuff. I was working in their newsroom, attended some. I even recall the framing: Vision 2020. Just a coincidence we're in that year now?

          I recall one suggestion that got traction: video on demand. Now a reality. Never discount how futures are generated via collective envisioning…

          • observer 6.2.2.1.1
            23 June 2020 at 11:12 am

            If you think "business as usual" is a vision then you need a better dictionary. Key's whole shtick was pragmatism, management and being a good bloke.

            John Armstrong (a fan) summed it up:

            John Key, Holyoake and Muldoon

            "Key says the test of any prime minister is whether he or she leaves the country in better shape than when he or she inherited it.

            It is a somewhat higher test than the one Sir Robert Muldoon invoked before his tenure – that he hoped to leave the country no worse off than he found it."

          • observer 6.2.2.1.2
            23 June 2020 at 11:14 am

            Oh, and

            "A typical view from the leftist bubble."

            Bubble? From the guy who has been in a bubble so long, he thinks "chink" is just fine. Your lack of self-awareness is breathtaking.

        • AB 6.2.2.2
          23 June 2020 at 11:43 am

          Key did have a vision and a vision is always based in the values of the visionary. So a vision can be malevolent, self-centred, or even boring. And Key's vision was a mixture of those three – to be fair, the malevolence was more the result of the unthinking insouciance of the wealthy, rather than an active desire to cause harm.

          • Dennis Frank 6.2.2.2.1
            23 June 2020 at 12:00 pm

            Indeed. When observer grows up he/she'll learn how collective visions create political cultures. Or fail to learn that. In the interim that person does correctly diagnose pragmatism & blokeism as the other two operational strands of Key's political praxis. So a youngster with some promise…

    • ianmac 6.3
      23 June 2020 at 9:45 am

      Yes Incognito! The essential point should be that there have been no community spreading for weeks. Every appearance of infection has been contained. What a great success – and yet there is a huge welling of denial from journalists. Piffle we say!

      Last weekend the Press published several columns asking for moderation yet Bryce Edwards ignored them and collated all the worst columns and only Bowalley Road for the positives scraped in.

      So hooray for Jack Vowels!

      • mac1 6.3.1
        23 June 2020 at 10:41 am

        Jack Vowels, ianmac? Is that spelling of his name an example of the Great Vowel Shift?

        Jim Flynn on RNZ yesterday said that people today don't read like they used to, and therefore opinions are affected by this paucity of knowledge and experience that reading affords.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018751710/understanding-intelligence-professor-james-flynn

        These journalists obviously haven't read the story of the boy who called wolf.

        So, those of us who still read newspaper journalism might be affected by their alarms, but many of us also hear the cry of 'wolf' and dismiss their alarmist, attention-seeking shallowness as a minor form of conspiracist doom-saying.

        Piffle indeed.

        • greywarshark 6.3.1.1
          23 June 2020 at 12:25 pm

          I don't think Bwyce is very nice. My teddy bear Edward thought he's a relative (Ted for short) but now doesn't and thinks he isn't nice either. Why does he seem to only like pointing out our faults. I think we need to be told once, and then get a pat on the head for the good things. (Ted thinks so too.)

        • Sacha 6.3.1.2
          23 June 2020 at 1:40 pm

          The boy will keep calling wolf as long as he is rewarded for it.

          • greywarshark 6.3.1.2.1
            23 June 2020 at 1:59 pm

            So I need to tell Ted that Bwyce is paid to find faults with Labour and everyone? That is a shame that he can't be fair and frank at the same time. Is that what they call buy-us?

      • ianmac 6.3.2
        23 June 2020 at 12:00 pm

        Very sorry Jack for misspelling Vowles. Respect for your realistic comments deserve better.

    • Anne 6.4
      23 June 2020 at 9:51 am

      Words of wisdom. But will the tabloid journos (which means most of them) take any notice? Course not. They operate like a pack of baying wolves and they have no intention of changing.

    • anker 6.5
      23 June 2020 at 11:32 am

      Yes great article. I am one of the people who have slammed NZders who are self isolating for not keeping to the rules of social distancing.

      So an acknowledgement to all those who did the self isolating thing as they were meant too, my sincere thanks to you. It would have been very hard staying isolated for two weeks in a small room.

    • Patricia Bremner 6.6
      23 June 2020 at 11:50 am

      That is sensible and balanced. Thanks incognito.

    • RedBaronCV 6.7
      23 June 2020 at 11:51 am

      Yeah – good article at 6.0. if the media really wanted to help they could quit the sensationalist headline and just short form the list of complaints by hotel which would be a great help to identify those residences not performing up to standard. Set up a snitch line so that the passengers could supervise each other? Those following the rules and desperate to leave could be right into that.

  7. observer 7
    23 June 2020 at 9:49 am

    It's 9.45 a.m.

    Has the breakfast arrived? We NEED to know …

    • I Feel Love 7.1
      23 June 2020 at 11:19 am

      Lolz!

    • anker 7.2
      23 June 2020 at 11:35 am

      Observer, LOL re the breakfast……and what about the water for the bus ride!

      Naughty for me to join in this humour, but as I posted above, my sincere thanks to Kiwis and there will be many of them who did the right thing with little or no complaint

    • AB 7.3
      23 June 2020 at 11:54 am

      A late breakfast is far worse than the tacit geronticide being practiced in many of the countries these people have returned from. It's unacceptable.

    • mary_a 7.4
      23 June 2020 at 12:05 pm

      Cheers observerlaughyes

  8. observer 8
    23 June 2020 at 10:01 am

    Commentators: The public will totally turn against the government!

    Public: Well, 13% of us will …

    So it's as any reasonable person would have expected. People annoyed with quarantine stuff-ups? Yes. And fair enough too.

    People losing the plot and demanding Ardern's head? No. Not even close.

    • RedBaronCV 8.1
      23 June 2020 at 11:41 am

      Be a little careful with those polls. Respondents are recruited off social media so all the non social media types are missed. In fact the group may be quite select – remember 20% of people don't have a phone suitable for an app and 50% have never downloaded one so the social media space may only be a little less limited.

      • observer 8.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 11:52 am

        I agree that it's less reliable than "traditional" polls. However, on this issue the results have been both internally consistent (a series since March, all 80% plus) and were also in line with the Colamr-Brunton/Reid research polls.

        In general terms, I'd rank the measures of public opinion as …

        1) TV1/TV3 polls, and the private polls by UMR and Curia

        2) Roy Morgan

        3) Horizon and Spinoff

        4 – 99) daylight

        100) spam non-polls for AM show, and all the other meaningless "my mates on Facebook", "brother-in-law at BBQ" etc.

    • ianmac 8.2
      23 June 2020 at 12:05 pm

      Only 7.5% think dealing with the virus "Terrible." Is that all? Some would say terrible regardless of anything at all.

  9. Tricledrown 9
    23 June 2020 at 10:15 am

    The NZ initiative ie Business round table ACT party super pac now claiming almighty stuff up. 6 weeks ago were saying we should have overseas students here by July, level 1 ,3 weeks earlier open borders with Australia by July.National Winston Peter's etc were pushing the same line.

  10. RedBaronCV 10
    23 June 2020 at 12:13 pm

    Now on a related topic. Why is the MOH still saying that risks around air crew are low? Haven't they got the public message that we expect the risk to be managed as close to zero as possible. Do they need another breakout to be convinced or are they simply idiots? Or RW sympathisers trying to make trouble.

    Why is Airnz not being leaned all over to improve the crewing standards. and rosters.even if it results in extra manning on rosters and fewer hours worked. Quite frankly some extra crew costs are a great deal cheaper then either quarantine or a more widespread outbreak. Sharing crews between Australia, NZ domestic and the Pacific Islands (!) and MOH saying Australia is low risk has to be "stupid of the year". Have they not realised that passengers are coming through Australia from other destinations? Can't they read?

    And why is the plague ridden Airline not implementing stricter standards than they appear to be. And I saw somewhere that they were going to use China based crew for some flights to NZ. How on earth are they going to keep them separate from local employees when they arrive? That should go well.

    These gaps all appear to be so obvious but these top managers simply seem to be unable to register that actions have consequences.

    So

    -MOH should tighten the rules and stop going "low risk" and defending that position. Much as they defended the "distress" of the road trippers rather than focusing on the risk to the community.

    – Airnz needs to get ahead of the curve and go for stronger safety. Get some of those Singapore airline Hazmat crew suits as well

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121902230/health-ministry-defends-covid-rules-for-air-crew-saying-australia-low-risk

    • greywarshark 10.1
      23 June 2020 at 12:15 pm

      RedBCV +100

    • Sacha 10.2
      23 June 2020 at 1:44 pm

      some extra crew costs are a great deal cheaper then either quarantine or a more widespread outbreak.

      Yet the latter costs fall on the public, not airline execs and shareholders. Need to fix those misaligned incentives.

    • Kiwijoker 10.3
      23 June 2020 at 3:16 pm

      The market will deal with it.

  11. greywarshark 11
    23 June 2020 at 12:13 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/419617/family-feels-betrayed-after-insurance-switch-leaves-them-short

    A South Auckland crane driver has been denied a $100,000 payout for his gastric cancer after a government-owned finance company switched his policy….

    His wife is furious that on the basis of what she says is a salesperson's garbled pitch – and despite recent official warnings to the insurance industry about its practice of "churning", or replacing old policies with new ones – her family of three children has now been pushed to financial breaking point.

    "That could have helped raising my children," said Shirley Farani, 40, who kept her job in finance and accounts throughout the pandemic levels, working from home while also looking after Ailepata Ailepata, who's 43, who has been off work for four months.

    "It's very distressing and very frustrating," she said, adding paying school expenses had been hard.

    The family, who live in Māngere Bridge, had paid for life and trauma insurance cover from Westpac since 2013.

    When, in 2018, they inquired about a mortgage with government-owned New Zealand Home Loans, an agent visited their home. He suggested changing insurers. They did, but ended up with less cover.

    This should come under our laws governing not getting something fit for purpose, when relying on someone who 'holds themselves out' as having complete understanding of his or her product and recommended it as right for matching the client's requirements.

    It should have been pointed out to them if there was any difference between the two products/policies and thoroughly explained.

    Additionally there is the contra proferentem position. That the policies differed in very important points affecting their cover should be noted against the party that introduced the idea of the change, and who should have known that they were receiving lesser cover; this would have been ambiguous to the clients.

    The Contra Proferentem Rule Explained

    Contracts can be complex documents created after long periods of protracted negotiations. Each party in the contract is ostensibly looking out for its own best interests and will want the contract language to be to each party's favor. This can create scenarios in which the contract language is ambiguous or unclear, leading one party to interpret the contract differently from the other party.

  12. RedBaronCV 12
    23 June 2020 at 1:15 pm

    I see we are going up to around 4000 immigration places. If these remain full then we are looking at some 50,000 returnees before then end of the year. plus potentially a million more if all the ones in Australia return.

    The government is going to have to make some hard decisions fast otherwise there will be insufficent housing, health services etc or they will be completely overrun..

    First up the visa holders who expired but were extended till sept need to be nudged on their way – they can't all leave at once on the last day so perhaps they need to start shifting expiry dates forward in groups.

    Cut all inwards applications even at the higher salary levels. We will be getting back some well qualified individuals in the higher brackets.

    Cease overseas work permit exemptions with "economic benefit" – only admit those who are needed for something special in the very short term.

    Deprioritise permanent resident visa holders that have not been ordinarily resident here.

    Maybe let NZ First front foot this ?

    • greywarshark 12.1
      23 June 2020 at 3:47 pm

      Trying to get some Kenyan connections in, all planned and now confused young people. So I hope that more than just NZs for numbers entering. They went away for the good times, and some could no doubt wait and work for a while and not rush home immediately to claim a place in the 'sleepy hollow'.

  13. Just Is 13
    23 June 2020 at 1:20 pm

    How lucky are we to live in NZ, we live in the only economically advanced country in the world to have eradicated Covid 19 from the community, the virus, globally, is now out of control, the WHO has warned of the impending global disaster about to happen.

    The relentless negative OPINIONS from a range of news sources for the minor errors made by individuals is extremely disappointing, it really indicates their desire to put the Govt down without any relativity to reality its self. The media seem to be in a bubble of make believe, it seems their preference is to harm the very people that have introduced regulations and rules that have made NZ the safest place in the world today, something WE should all be extremely proud of.

    Ex pat Kiwis are flooding back to NZ for the very same reason, we are pretty well the safest developed country in the world at this point of time, the virus is now spreading exponentially as too many countries just have not accepted the the relative harm that will occur.

    All returning Kiwis should have a negative test result 24 hrs prior to boarding a plane, this doesn't mean they're clear, but at least it raises the bar, too many returnees would be prepared to return carrying the virus so they can come to a safe haven in the knowledge our Health system will take care of them.

  14. Andre 14
    23 June 2020 at 1:20 pm

    Y'know, it's starting to stretch the limits of my willingness to believe that we really didn't have infected cases come into the country before those two women that caused the big kerfluffle.

    Consider – pretty much every day since those two were detected, we've detected more new cases. But none before? I don't recall any announcements before that of cases detected in quarantine or managed isolation. The step change in detection frequency is overloading my "really?" detector.

    What I really want to know is whether those in charge are also seeing that anomaly, and if they're taking steps to backcheck on those that made it through their two weeks and then released without testing. The good news is that the behavioural changes we've all made over the last few months are likely enough on their own to reduce R) below 1, so even if infectious new entrants made it out, they're still kinda unlikely to create new hotspots.

    • RedBaronCV 14.1
      23 June 2020 at 1:39 pm

      Yep I'd like to see them back checking too. Just in case – so we can get onto any community breakouts fast.

      And I hate to say this but with the current flights in from highly infected places – do we need to pressure the airlines to ensure there is more PPE used on the planes – or that there is social distancing in the seating so people are not being infected in the air.And the bus trips from the airport too? And that the aircrews are kept strictly contained. And when they arrive even if it is only isolation they have to stay in the room for a number of days. Do we insist on some pre embarkation quarantine or testing? Or do we just close our borders again to some countries. Frankly if Spain is going to let in unchecked british tourists and with lockdowns easing in a number of countries the disease is starting to really take off overseas again
      Plus I have real doubts about spreading quarantine too far and wide. It means any cases needing to be hospitalised will also be spread around rather then being concentrated in one hospital with the appropriate resources.

      I can see plenty of local appetite for the tightest border controls possible

      • greywarshark 14.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 3:53 pm

        It would also help for the airlines to reduce the alcohol available on the flights to just one or two. Then just water, or low sweetened concentrate like lime juice. There is bound to be an ugly argument start some time with the stress that everyone is under, and particularly those that rarely are prevented from doing what they want. The entitled don't take to that.

        Then when they arrive they should get their temp taken before going to isolation. A body with too much alcohol wouldn't give a good reading and could be fractious too.

    • McFlock 14.2
      23 June 2020 at 1:44 pm

      Hopefully the quarantine period did its job, even if we didn't test the ones who came in with it because they were asymptomatic. But also we have increasing numbers of returnees?

      Nobody random has presented to hospital yet, so after a month from the start of the dotballs that's a good sign.

      edit: there was a tweet on testing the logistics of everyone at the airport, which is understandable. But a test in the first five days and another in the last few days would probably be a more achievable goal.

      • Andre 14.2.1
        23 June 2020 at 2:00 pm

        AFAIK the numbers are something like 20,000 returnees total gone through the system, of which 4000 are still in quarantine/isolation. So, 11 cases among the 4k still within the system, and 0 among the 16k that have passed all the way through? I struggle with that, even allowing for the idea that more of the returnees now are from places where infections are rampant and increasing (UK, India, US) and earlier returnees were biased more towards places with low infection rates (Australia).

        In terms of testing numbers, lets say we get 500 returnees a day, two tests each. That means just doing the mandated testing on returnees accounts for 1000 tests a day, out of total testing capacity somewhere around 6k a day. And returnees have to be considered the highest testing priority. Looks to me like there's zero excuse for returnees to not ave been tested.

    • greywarshark 15.1
      23 June 2020 at 1:51 pm

      Shocking and even worse it seems true. Great rant. USA version of Jonathan Pie?
      This goes with it on youtube:

      Redacted Tonight
      227K subscribers
      Starting next month (July, 2020) full episodes of Redacted Tonight will no longer be available on YouTube. They will be on the free video streaming platform “Portable TV.” All segments of Redacted Tonight will STILL be on YouTube but for the full episodes download the free app at https://www.portable.tv/download.
      Full episodes will still be available at RT.com.

      A group of fearless protesters were invited to stay in the Venezuelan Embassy the other day to protect it from US interference. The government wanted to put them in jail for a year for helping to stop the US-backed coup. The worst of their charges were recently dropped. Yay.

      ~
      Watch Lee’s newest Stand-Up Comedy Special for free here – https://LeeCampAmerican.com
      ~
      Our videos are heavily suppressed by YouTube and Facebook. Please help us avoid censorship by sharing this if you see fit. And join my email list by texting “REDACTED” to 33-777. It’s free and quick. You can also join at LeeCamp.com.

  16. greywarshark 16
    23 June 2020 at 1:48 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/419646/covid-19-national-party-demands-answers-on-covid-19-testing-in-isolation

    National, the party of no regulations and freeeedom. All of a sudden they want it so they can swing it around and bash Labour with it. Pathetic.

    Who are the sour looking journos or hangers on in the background of the pic interviewing PM Jacinda? ( I haven't watched the vid yet, have to do some useful stuff at home.)

    • Tiger Mountain 16.1
      23 June 2020 at 2:07 pm

      The press gallery these days seem to behave as a pack of surly “nag bags”, living for their next leak from some duplicitous Ministerial toady, or Nat staff member.

      Some of them, surely, must experience a little self loathing at what they have become. Journalists have to hold the powerful to account, but most of this rather joyless lot can’t separate that legitimate function from the Paparazzi like “gotchas” and “scalp taking”.

  17. aj 17
    23 June 2020 at 1:53 pm

    Just watched in full today's Bloomfield news conference. (I haven't watched any since level 3)

    He was as good as usual, and journalists as bad as listening as usual. I think his answers were complex – they had to be to cover the myriad of events happening at the border – and it's clear that many at that presser just didn't understand them. His finish was superb after being asked about how events 'undermine confidence'. To paraphrase he said

    ….what should inspire confidence is that I'm fronting up and explaining whats going on, and what it taking place at the border and steps being taken to improve the border. What would undermine confidence is if I wasn't here talking to you

  18. Muttonbird 18
    23 June 2020 at 2:51 pm

    Woodhouse spreading fake news. I suspected this might be the case.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/06/coronavirus-homeless-man-who-allegedly-stayed-in-auckland-quarantine-facility-cannot-be-verified.html

    He should be savaged for this by the media but it won't happen.

    I see also the Covid-Karens had another visitor when they got to Chris Bishop's house Lower Hutt. They really are the pits those two. Wanted special treatment then abused the process. No wonder someone ratted on them.

    Also confused about why the media continues the line that Bloomfield and the MoH have been dishonest about the sisters' movements. Clearly Bloomfield and the MoH were getting their info from the Covid Karens, and they have been lying through their teeth since they landed!

    • Andre 18.1
      23 June 2020 at 3:10 pm

      Bugger. Oh well, I s'pose the idea of a homeless dude blagging a two week stay in a luxury hotel was always too funny to be true.

      • dv 18.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 3:22 pm

        AND what is the proof that he was homeless any way.

        oh it was an "unverified", it came from a "reliable source"

        GEEZ

      • Gabby 18.1.2
        23 June 2020 at 6:20 pm

        Woodlouse thinks his arse is reliable so it's all ok.

    • Muttonbird 18.2
      23 June 2020 at 7:09 pm

      I'm glad to see Woods hit back with a strongly worded letter. The misinformation spread by the National Party in these times must be countered, otherwise it becomes part of the narrative.

      Though, it would be a massive coup for Woodhouse if he produced said homeless person…

  19. Dennis Frank 19
    23 June 2020 at 3:07 pm

    Spinoff polling covers a variety of issues to assess the public mood re govt handling of the pandemic, and the latest report puts it in context with the trend over recent months. One of the essay writers here ought to post a comprehensive analysis, perhaps with a look at the election campaign relevance: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-06-2020/exclusive-poll-reveals-public-impact-of-failures-in-nz-covid-quarantine-system/

    The sixth in a series of demographically weighted polls by Stickybeak for The Spinoff conducted over recent months sees overall support for the government response fall just shy of 75%. That’s a drop of 10% from our previous poll, which was completed at the start of last week. Across five previous polls, beginning in late March, the average total backing for the government response was 84%, and this is the first time it has dropped under 80%. A week ago, we reported 74% of respondents judging the response “excellent”; today that number is 53%.

  20. OnceWasTim 20
    23 June 2020 at 3:52 pm

    A question for @Andre

    Don't you reckon it's about time Putin called in the debt and insisted Donny O Jnr and Melania have the Hydroxy Clorax Queen committed to the Tallahassee Home for the Bewildered?

    If they hold out much longer, they could lose everything and its all going to look a bit too obvious – the Tangerine Turkey's disciples seem to be dropping off like flies on paper soaked in pyrethrin

    • greywarshark 20.1
      23 June 2020 at 3:59 pm

      Tangerine – the colour of the age. Hope it goes out of fashion soon. A very 'colourful' comment OwT. The news here aims to be factual, but it isn't boring.

      • OnceWasTim 20.1.1
        23 June 2020 at 4:24 pm

        Well as a parent @ Grey, I'm clutching me stolen pearls and just thinking of the children! And it's just as well I disposed of all my worldly goods to them before I actually kark it and I now live at their pleasure. I'm just a bit worried that Donny Jnr and Melania – if they don't get the timing right – they could be left with nothing! (And won't that be a sad day).

        Still, no doubt Donny Jnr and Melania have devised an alternate escape hatch and I really shouldn't be tearing my hair out worrying about their future.

        I'll get back to my darning socks and knitting in front of CNN, Aunty Beeb and BobJazeera

    • Andre 20.2
      23 June 2020 at 5:46 pm

      I dunno.

      Clearly the smart move for Tweetyturd right now would be to negotiate his pardon from Pence in return for resigning while he's still got good negotiating leverage because he's giving Pence time to have a good go at making his own case for the preznitzy. Leave it too late, and there's not enough in it for Pence, unless he's so desperate the getting the title of Mr President for however briefly is enough. The only conversation that might possibly persuade him to do that would end with "don't forget to give us our pardons before actually resigning, OK daddy?".

      As for Pootee, I'm struggling to see how he can leverage the situation to his own benefit out of this. Releasing any pee-pee tapes and financial juicy details he may have won't get him anything useful. Except more division and turmoil within the US (which may have been the objective all along). So maybe Genghis Con lucked into the same play with Pootee that he pulled on regulators and banks in his earlier career – make sure that those who can bring you down will also come crashing down with you if they do pull the pin.

      There's certainly no way he can be involuntarily removed If he chooses to fight, the 25th Amendment is a tougher route than impeachment, in that it needs the veep, half of cabinet, 2/3 of the House and 2/3 of the Senate to remove him. As opposed to just half the House and 2/3 of the Senate for impeachment.

  21. Ad 21
    23 June 2020 at 4:08 pm

    We are in a serious property market correction, which is happening now, of 10-12% down:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12342272

    The S&P report underscores that the entire economy is now propped up by government policy and government cash:

    "A contracting economy, rising unemployment, and weak consumer and business sentiment will affect the asset quality of banks in New Zealand, in our view," S&P said.

    "However, we consider that the substantial fiscal and policy support from the New Zealand authorities and a strong economic rebound during fiscal 2021 (year ending June 2021) should help to limit the rise in credit losses."

    We have a 1 in 3 chance that this is going to get really, really dark.

  22. Ad 22
    23 June 2020 at 4:54 pm

    Curious to see the pharmaceutical industry do a full hit on pharmac this close to an election and with the Simpson health review still cooling off the printer:

    https://www.fairnessinfocus.co.nz/

    A big Youtube launch, new website, substantial backers.

    Let's see how National responds to this entreaty.

  23. Tricledrown 23
    23 June 2020 at 11:00 pm

    National need to sack Hooton looks like Woodhouse may be in the outhouse.

    Looks like Hooton channeling Trump.

  24. Tricledrown 24
    23 June 2020 at 11:44 pm

    The Media wolf pack will hunt down Woodhouse and blow his house down and expose his lying ass.

  25. David Mac 25
    24 June 2020 at 3:48 am

    We need to wake up to ourselves, The person in charge of who passes over our borders is incapable of regulating the calories that pass over their palette. Thankfully she is also looking after Trainsmash. (Kiwibuild)

    Geez it must be tough to be Jacinda. She has to play lead guitar, drums and bass at the same time. Her team need to have a jolly good look at themselves.

    The Minister of Health can't stick to the rules the 5 million of us comprehend. I can't listen to the guy without thinking 'Fuck You idiot.' His credibility is a black hole.

    I'm so very sorry Jacinda, you are surrounded by people that don't live up to their handles.

    Grant Robertson spent months looking at 'The Future of Work in NZ.' Superb timing. We should be all set. Unfortunately the guy calculating the future of work in NZ has never worked in the private sector in his entire life.

    We love you Jacinda but you need to start placing people around you that can actually make things happen.

    It's an ideal time to seize the day and we ain't.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 25.1
      24 June 2020 at 4:01 am

      PM Ardern could poach some opposition National party 'talent' – building Bridges laugh

  26. David Mac 26
    24 June 2020 at 4:22 am

    Wasn't it amusing to watch the politicians in the weekend Current Affairs shows ever so backhandedly drop any Covid shortfall call-outs over into Ashley's lap.

    I was surprised that they could be so tone deaf. When you say Ashley did it, it's the same as saying my Mum did it. We take a knee wid da Bloom.

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