Open mike 23/09/2020

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   23 September 2020 at 6:19 am

   Spinoff has a team verdict on the leaders' debate: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/22-09-2020/leaders-debate-the-verdicts/

   Toby Manhire: "Campbell, who did a good job at keeping things rolling, at one point observed, “You sound like you’re both on auto-pilot,” he was mostly right, except that would have required leaving the ground."

   Trish Sherson: "Real politics is live, off script, a contest of ideas with tough questions. Collins owned it."

   Morgan Godfery: "The prime minister had it all over her: on the border, on housing, on education, and in personality. "

   Ben Thomas: "Ardern was strangely hesitant."

   Justin Giovannetti: "When asked about her plan for poverty reduction, Collins responded with ripping up the RMA. Campbell was incredulous, voters were probably confused."

   Madeleine Chapman: "both leaders argued about who could commit the hardest to not taxing property. In my mind, we all lost tonight. And I will spend the next seven working days of my life fake-smiling and announcing “my husband is Samoan, so talofa” to everyone I meet. In that sense, Judith Collins won simply by saying something so ridiculous that she’ll be living rent-free in my brain until the next debate."
   • Ed 1.1

     23 September 2020 at 6:41 am

     Steve Braunias has written an article for the Guardian on the leaders' debate. The link is below. One notable quote…

     After the curious stage direction, Campbell gave a warm welcome to Ardern and Collins, and revealed that he was holding nothing more sinister than a brand new clipboard. The next 90 minutes were all downhill.

     Braunias is such a good writer.

     First TV debate between Ardern and Collins avoids being a horror show
     • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

       23 September 2020 at 7:39 am

       She told him what.

       “I tell you what, John,” she kept saying, and one of the things she told him over and over is that she had experience as a small business owner. “I once was one.” She treated the debate as a kind of autobiography in instalments.
       • karol121 1.1.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 4:24 pm

         Exactly Dennis. It's a good one.

         Old Jude's really quite skillful, don't you think? No flies on her in this regard.

         When there is very little of relevance that you can confidently dominate the debate with, revert to repetitive and vague historical recollections, including inane self promotion.

         And then hope that it might appeal to the emotions of a number of the disillusioned or worried, (in this case small and medium business operators), or any other target audience which you know will be feeling some pain or distress at the time you take to the podium.

         Then hope like Hell that your murmurings will convince the target audience that their suffering and predicament was brought about by your opponent, or those who advised him or her and also by those who continue to do so.
   • Ad 1.2

     23 September 2020 at 7:06 am

     Ardern has done truckloads of speeches with radiant anecdotes and transcendent aspiration.

     Absent.

     Maybe she prefers we just sleepwalk to the polls.
     • Janet 1.2.1

       23 September 2020 at 9:31 am

       Maybe Ardern was just plain tired , pandemic to navigate NZ through since March and electioneering since July. She knew it and had to tread cautiously first time around.
       • greywarshark 1.2.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 9:46 am

         Janet I would think you're 100% right. The knowledge that the election would be over now if not having to be fitted round wilfully ignorant people undoing the efforts of those really doing God's work on earth leads to pockets of depression. She may have been on the edge of one of them.
     • karol121 1.2.2

       24 September 2020 at 4:49 pm

       And for those not wishing to sleepwalk to the polls, just roll over and go back to sleep, (perhaps until 2023).

       Another way, if are worried that you might be accused of NOT voting or you are getting a bit nervous about being caught out abstaining from the three yearly habit, is to go to the nearest polling place, walk in, and then out.

       After you've done and then just mill around (smoke a ciggy if you're that way inclined, or sip on a water for about 20 minutes) and then leave with an old "I voted" sticker from 2017 or 2014 that you brought with you, stuck to your jacket, shirt or blouse.

       That'll be sure to do the trick.
2. Chris T 2

   23 September 2020 at 6:29 am

   Personally found the whole debate totally underwhelming.

   Thought Ardern was flat and Collins, was just stating points we all knew, and Campbell was just irritating.

   Collin's probably pipped it, but neither were particularly inspiring me to think vote for them.
   • tc 2.1

     23 September 2020 at 7:01 am

     Collins made her points rather than answer the actual questions. The arrogance was on show with those cutaway shots so her media minders have work to do unless that's the desired outcome.
     • Chris T 2.1.1

       23 September 2020 at 7:09 am

       Different styles I think.

       Collin's is hardly going to make any impact trying to play Ardern at her particular skills, because a) she isn’t that cuddly feely, b) She would look incincere, so pointing out basic points is pretty much all she has to go with at this late stage I think.

       I did think Collins got the better of Ardern with coming across to your average normal voter who doesn't particularly follow politics, with plain speak tbh, while Ardern's normally excellent communication skills kind of had an off night.
       • Chris T 2.1.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 7:18 am

         If anything, to me it looked oddly like Ardern had just over practiced the thing and was just sticking to a routine or script, with no improv' when Collins pointed things out.
       • mauī 2.1.1.2

         23 September 2020 at 7:35 am

         If you like full on cringe you would have picked Collins over Ardern. Her performance was on par with what a certain Don Brash could produce, even Bridges probably would have been more convincing.

         Collins response of "that we know of!" to Ardern's statement on the tiny amount of border/quarantine breaches was one such example.
         • Chris T 2.1.1.2.1

           23 September 2020 at 8:48 am

           I guess it comes down to how you prefer you leader to come across.

           Different voters prefer different things. If you like the touchy feely persona, Ardern is always going to win (although she had an off night last night). If you prefer just basic truthful points rammed at you then you would go Collins.

           And if you are a die hard voter for either party, you are going to view each persons performance with rose coloured glasses and ignore the flaws of your preferred.
           • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1.2.1.1

             23 September 2020 at 9:37 am

             "truthful points" Judith? spare us!! Se incognito’s quotes.
           • Gabby 2.1.1.2.1.2

             23 September 2020 at 10:42 am

             Codger? Truthful? C'mon man.
           • karol121 2.1.1.2.1.3

             23 September 2020 at 4:00 pm

             An old trick that seasoned or street smart politicians on the offensive often come up with is having it appear that they are trying to be polite and truthful, when all they are trying to do is to dislodge their opponent and dominate the debate.

             Ardern seems to be aware of this tactic and has obviously been quite well coached in relation to avoiding repetitive distraction. For example, repetitive title errors or name pronunciations"errors".

             Expressing opinion as to package it as a "truthful presentation" is another tactic which is well used. It is commonly acceptable just as long as the opinion expressed cannot be legitimately challenged as being erroneous or non-factual at the time that opinion is provided.

             This is as old a trick as using percentages of percentages to embellish or appear to exaggerate a statement so as to give it impact.

             Say the unemployment figure for women in NZ from Sept 2017 through to Sept 2018 decreased from 5.4% to 4%, some might convey it this way; "The number of registered unemployed women in NZ dropped by about 22% during Sept 2017 and Sept 2018".

             Quite entertaining really.

             All I am suggesting is that we all need to be careful with our definition of the word; "truthful", especially when quoting politicians lines.
     • Chris 2.1.2

       23 September 2020 at 9:53 am

       No matter what her minders have told her she must change – and it's obvious her minders have said there's a lot she needs to change – there's nothing Collins can do to mask her abject narcissism and multiple personality disorders.
3. Pat 3

   23 September 2020 at 6:50 am

   Straw poll….how many subjected themselves to the full 90 mins?

   Yes…..0

   No….1
   • gsays 3.1

     23 September 2020 at 7:02 am

     Another no from me, I tried to stay engaged.

     I was a bit put off by the hype- Wendy Petrie over the poll results, as if they were handed down to Moses as gospel to the repeated gushy ad with Campbell.

     I am not the target audience, I have made up my mind and will be early voting.
     • Pat 3.1.1

       23 September 2020 at 7:04 am

       who was the target audience I wonder?…insomniacs?
       • Chris 3.1.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 11:21 am

         Psychiatrists.
     • Ed 3.1.2

       23 September 2020 at 7:18 am

       Yes for me. And regretted it.

       Yes…..1

       No….2
       • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1

         23 September 2020 at 7:25 am

         Yes I watched it all. Regret? Not really – you risk missing a gotcha or king-hit moment if you yield to the tedium.
         • Adrian Thornton 3.1.2.1.1

           23 September 2020 at 8:22 am

           @ Dennis Frank …yep with you there..I fucking love political debates, and this one I actually thought was pretty good, it showed for anyone who bothered to watch the whole thing where both political parties lined up and where the light was between them…the environment was obviously the most stark difference between them, while Madeleine Chapman summed up housing and capital gains (which is also of course directly related to inequality and poverty outcomes etc)…"both leaders argued about who could commit the hardest to not taxing property. In my mind, we all lost tonight."

           I found Ardern to be quite uncharismatic which combined with an awful semi pleading delivery style was quite hard to watch, while Collins left me with the feeling that I cannot excuse anyone who would actually vote for someone so seething with uncontrolled rage and a barely contained nasty streak that spilled out time and time again in almost every sideways look and glance she made at Ardren..she seemed to me to be quite unhinged.
           • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1.1.1

             23 September 2020 at 8:39 am

             awful semi pleading delivery

             Indeed. Someone ought to explain biological signalling to her! Viewers read the plea as a sign of weakness. Sincere, genuine leftists use the plea style out of habit, presuming others have rapport, empathy, and will give the reasoning due consideration. My guess is that their assumption is valid for about 20% of the audience. Inept politics to use it then, eh?
             • Adrian Thornton …

               23 September 2020 at 10:42 am

               " Sincere, genuine leftists use the plea style out of habit" exactly right, which is why I have been advocating taking a hard line for years…stop asking and start demanding change from these fuckers..no more bended knees and more clenched fists of righteous outrage imo.

               The problem in NZ is that we have never strung up any politician from a lamp post by their feet, so there is no historical reference for them to have any fear of us..hence their demeaning, insulting and frankly outrageous shift over the past thirty or so years to regarding the population as mere consumers rather active citizens.
             • Siobhan …

               23 September 2020 at 11:05 am

               Really? I can't think of any Leftist politicians or activists that do/have ever done the plea gesture so often..if at all..ever.

               It has certainly never been used to create change or forward momentum. Infact the only political figures who tend towards that sort of thing are possibly James Shaw and Justin Trudeau..add Ardern to that list..and it looks rather like a Centrist's trying hard not to look like centrists technique…pleading with the voters to buy into their fragile narrative with its elusive promises.

               That being said..qudos to Shaw for managing to talk about inequality at the finance debate…
           • Chris 3.1.2.1.1.2

             23 September 2020 at 11:30 am

             It's the tedium that’s interesting to see.
           • Chris 3.1.2.1.1.3

             23 September 2020 at 11:35 am

             “…so seething with uncontrolled rage and a barely contained nasty streak that spilled out time and time again in almost every sideways look and glance she made at Ardern…she seemed to me to be quite unhinged."

             Spot on, wholly accurate assessment. I cannot add a thing to it. Would be good if the commentators had the balls to say so, too, although many wouldn't have the tools to detect it.
   • Ad 3.2

     23 September 2020 at 7:02 am

     Got bored after 10 mins.

     Queenstown one was much better.
     • Graeme 3.2.1

       23 September 2020 at 7:19 am

       Would have been a good night, 400 turnout is pretty good for Queenstown But we're right at the front end with Covid economic effects, so a lot of motivated people.

       A lot of dreams are in tatters around the town, and a lot who thought it was all over in April are going like never before, so a very interesting town right now.

       It's a bit different to actually have an election campaign in town, usually it's a pretty subdued affair with just the local candidates and maybe a senior Nat down on a fundraiser. This time the work is going in and it's all on. Labour actually putting up a viable local candidate along with the current situation has really got things going.
       • Dennis Frank 3.2.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 7:32 am

         They played a short clip on breakfast news and I couldn't believe how much Robertson – who doesn't normally seem a big man – towered over the pipsqueaks on either side of him. One of whom was Goldsmith.

         Tova just now reckoned that Seymour won. He seems to be flavour of the month, so wouldn't surprise me.
       • Pat 3.2.1.2

         23 September 2020 at 7:42 am

         Did anyone learn anything of import at the Queenstown debate?
         • Ad 3.2.1.2.1

           23 September 2020 at 8:15 am

           Yes. Act really is on a roll.

           Goldsmith is flat.

           Robertson needs a lot better lines than "we've got policy coming"
           • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2.1.2.1.1

             23 September 2020 at 8:23 am

             Lets not forget what act really is…

             "ACT leader David Seymour announced the party's tourism policy at an event at the Te Anau Club last night, calling for privately run managed isolation facilities, and allowing rich foreigners to pay to use them for a New Zealand holiday. "

             https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/426599/act-tourism-policy-bold-but-operators-question-uptake
             • greywarshark …

               23 September 2020 at 9:57 am

               edit
               We need to be retreating from barefoot tourism but still need to keep overseas tourists' money cycling through the economy. You express horror at the idea of wealthy coming here to managed isolation prior to being able to tour round the country using some of the expensive infrastructure set up for such people. And also it would I hope have a dedicated set of workers earning, is not a disgraceful or impractical idea.

               Until we get organised shipping set up that perhaps follows the seasons, and sails around the tornado areas as much as possible, then having an airline running reducing kilometres to bring people here, and enable NZs to go to certain places, requires the two-way coming and going numbers to keep viable.

               Who has thought about how shipping could serve us? Can we expand the numbers of berths on container ships? I have an old advertisement advertising these on a 'banana boat'. And can we provide business for the Greeks again? The Fairstar and the Fairsky ships were owned by Onassiss I think. They did a busy trade in the 1960-70s.
               • PsyclingLeft.Always …

                 23 September 2020 at 11:11 am

                 " You express horror at the idea of wealthy coming here to managed isolation prior to being able to tour round the country using some of the expensive infrastructure set up for such people. And also it would I hope have a dedicated set of workers earning, is not a disgraceful or impractical idea."

                 I express horror? Dont imagine what I express. I merely stated

                 " Lets not forget what act really is… "

                 and linked to an article. But hey your comment paints a picture.
                 • greywarshark …

                   23 September 2020 at 11:32 am

                   I thought that you thought that the idea was a significant one. It actually is important whether ACT said it or not.
                   • PsyclingLeft.Always …

                     23 September 2020 at 11:52 am

                     Well you know what thought thought…Anyway you seem to want to be on both ends of the game. You decry neoliberalism…while praising an idea that stems exactly from there. Huh?

                     Thanks to both neolib nats and neolib "labour". NZ did away with our our NZ Apprenticeship scheme and became a hospitality/waiter/waitress/touristguide/bartender/service industry neolib playground.

                     If you cant see the Irony here? I cant help you across the road to it.

                     Labour seems to be getting back to what they are supposed to be. I really hope so.
           • Pat 3.2.1.2.1.2

             23 September 2020 at 8:49 am

             so no then.
   • Chris T 3.3

     23 September 2020 at 7:20 am

     Yes an no.

     Was listening to the stream on the web while watching TV, and tbf for a bit of it, my attention to the tv won over the stream in my attention span
   • Stuart Munro 3.4

     23 September 2020 at 8:22 am

     10 minutes was plenty.
   • xanthe 3.5

     23 September 2020 at 8:24 am

     NO and that is the right question !
   • Incognito 3.6

     23 September 2020 at 8:38 am

     Not a single second.
   • Janet 3.7

     23 September 2020 at 9:34 am

     Yes
   • Andre 3.8

     23 September 2020 at 9:35 am

     No. I briefly thought I should watch it, then decided a better use of my time would be to find a rusty old can-opener and give myself an anesthetic-free vasectomy.
   • Wensleydale 3.9

     23 September 2020 at 1:53 pm

     Did not watch. Working. Caught the odd snippet here and there.

     I doubt I missed much, to be honest. I find Collins personally repellent and I try to avoid watching her in the same way I actively avoid reading anything written by Mike Hosking and his similarly awful wife. Life is too short to spend it shrieking at the television. I've spend decades watching National ruin everything they touch, and National would have to stop being National for me to ever consider voting for them. The current incarnation is probably the worst I've ever witnessed.
     • Grafton Gully 3.9.1

       23 September 2020 at 7:45 pm

       "National ruin everything they touch", unlike Lange and the Graham Scott Puppet Show.

       "In late 1979 Mr Scott moved to the Treasury, eventually becoming secretary in 1986. He worked closely with the fourth Labour Government as it reformed the New Zealand economy in the 1980s."

       http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/804306/An-old-hand-sees-the-parallels
   • McFlock 3.10

     23 September 2020 at 4:07 pm

     Didn't watch.

     The main point of a debate is the post-debate momentum- did an underdog 'wipe the floor' with their opponent? Was there a "show me the money" moment? Did someone drop a clanger?

     Facts matter, but most people won't have watched the debate. They will probably see the distilled coverage, though. That's the bit that affects the outcome.
4. NZJester 4

   23 September 2020 at 7:26 am

   The problem with debates is that they are not easy to fact check on the fly. Nationals claims tend to lose in the long run when properly fact checked.

   National tend to claim a lot of things that when fact checked are shown to be made up of cherry picked data that falls over, or put up claims they are they ones who could better balance the books when they can not even seam to get the accounting right on their alternate budget.

   Look at the holes slowly showing up in Nationals alternate budget as people start to go through the numbers. First an easy to catch mistake they have owned up to and now a second big hole they are not admitting to.

   Judith's claims that NSW in Australia dealt better with Covid 19 than NZ with fewer restriction, another claim that falls over when the full numbers are looked at and not cherry picked.

   National in a debate are like a boxer that hits below the belt every time the ref is not looking to win a match. They toss in cherry picked and misleading data all the time to win debates and it is hard to win a debate against someone with actual facts when they have "Alternate Facts" they will use to score points on you.

   Election 2020: National's fiscal hole appears to double to $8 billion as Paul Goldsmith denies double count mistake
   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300113657/election-2020-nationals-fiscal-hole-appears-to-double-to-8-billion-as-paul-goldsmith-denies-double-count-mistake

   National leader Judith Collins’ claim NSW ‘dealt with’ COVID-19 better than NZ fact-checked as ‘mostly false’

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/09/national-leader-judith-collins-claim-nsw-dealt-with-covid-19-better-than-nz-fact-checked-as-mostly-false.html
   • ianmac 4.1

     23 September 2020 at 8:07 am

     Collins said that Agriculture contributed 0.02 % to the Worlds pollution.

     Quite true but the Agriculture contributing 48% of NZ's pollution more relevant. But who cares in such a non debate.
     • dv 4.1.1

       23 September 2020 at 8:33 am

       Sort of interesting that she 'knew" that, when she she was well out with number of covid deaths in aust states.

       And her 'scrapping' the RMA fills me with dread. Remember what happened last time the Natz did that —LEAKY BUILDINGS.
       • Sacha 4.1.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 9:08 am

         Mould deserves freedom, you know.
     • Patricia Bremner 4.1.2

       23 September 2020 at 8:40 am

       Jacinda, "Ms Ardern" pointed that out, and that transport was a further 20%.
       • Anne 4.1.2.1

         23 September 2020 at 9:55 am

         Actually I'm sure she was saying "Miss Ardern" Patricia.

         The one thing I took away from the debate is that Judith Collins showed us what a nasty cow she really is.
         • In Vino 4.1.2.1.1

           23 September 2020 at 7:11 pm

           Quite right Anne – I play my TV through a good Hi Fi sound system, and distinctly heard 'Miss Ardern'. Mind you, I doubt if it matters in terms of votes. Judith is trying to sound nice, but every so often I find myself wondering if she is a sour cow or a sour sow. That may sound sexist, so maybe I should balance it with full of bull, and boring bore..

           The nasty Muldoon persona does not help. It is actually a bit piggy, I think.
           • In Vino 4.1.2.1.1.1

             23 September 2020 at 7:22 pm

             Or how about crushing boar?
             • Anne …

               23 September 2020 at 8:25 pm

               I reckon Piggy Jude is about right. Muldoon reincarnated in female form.
               • In Vino …

                 24 September 2020 at 12:05 am

                 She is nowhere near as competent as Muldoon was in his prime..
                 • Anne …

                   24 September 2020 at 9:37 am

                   True, but she doesn't know it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
5. dv 5

   23 September 2020 at 7:31 am

   The debate needed a fact checker.
   • Patricia Bremner 5.1

     23 September 2020 at 8:44 am

     The debate needed a better camera person/s. We were often looking at the back of Jacinda's head, though we never saw the back of John's or Judith's!! What was that about??
     • Janet 5.1.1

       23 September 2020 at 9:41 am

       Yes I particularly noticed that too – the lighting was not balanced over the two speakers – often a bit "dark "on Ardern .
       • In Vino 5.1.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 7:18 pm

         Good – we need aware viewers to complain and let TVNZ know that we understand their biased editing techniques.
   • Sacha 5.2

     23 September 2020 at 8:57 am

     With an electric shock capability.
   • Draco T Bastard 5.3

     23 September 2020 at 11:48 am

     Leaders debates like this are about personality and not the facts, about building popularity through charisma rather than informing people and have them make informed choices.

     Because of this I consider such debates detrimental to democracy.
6. Dennis Frank 6

   23 September 2020 at 7:44 am

   Ardern, for her part, a now hardened political professional, seemed determined to avoid creating a viral Internet meme out of the night. If that were the intent, she achieved it.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122852273/leaders-election-debate-verdict-jacinda-ardern-lost-but-judith-collins-didnt-win-it

   The tactic from Collins seems to try to get under Ardern’s skin, while Ardern seemed to be trying to be relentlessly optimistic and nice – presumably to draw a contrast between the two. She consistently hewed back to Labour talking points. Both leaders fell back to entrenched positions and didn't answer a lot of questions.
   • ianmac 6.1

     23 September 2020 at 8:11 am

     And I will spend the next seven working days of my life fake-smiling and announcing “my husband is Samoan, so talofa” to everyone I meet.

     What a smart line from Madeline Chapman. (See No 1 Dennis @ 6.19 from Spinoff.)
     • Pat 6.1.1

       23 September 2020 at 9:00 am

       I thought her line "In my mind we all lost tonight" was the closer to the mark
       • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1.1

         23 September 2020 at 9:14 am

         CGT did nothing to Australia's housing market.
         • Pat 6.1.1.1.1

           23 September 2020 at 9:33 am

           There are other ways of reigning in the ponzi scheme….if the will is there.
         • greywarshark 6.1.1.1.2

           23 September 2020 at 10:11 am

           How much extra tax did it bring to the coffers. They will need some to help pay for their coffins.

           However we need extra tax to help provide living people with decent basics, of which we have a thriving market selling off to toffs from NZ and overseas. Come and buy anything you like, our houses for instance, (and our farms, by the dozens), and get lots of moolah. Then pile it in one of your spare rooms with a diving board like Grandpa Duck used, though that silly duffer had piles of gold coins. But the wealthy aren't too sensitive, he probably never noticed the hard edges.

           But I wonder how much CGT here would have raised because the poor here do feel the hard edges of everything.
         • Brigid 6.1.1.1.3

           23 September 2020 at 11:22 am

           I guess because it was poorly executed.
7. Dennis Frank 7

   23 September 2020 at 8:27 am

   Green voter attacks Green Party: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/09/23/why-are-the-greens-dying-and-what-happens-if-they-do/

   Bomber's cultural analysis features the Top 8 Green Party Woke Alienations. The photo of the Wellington Twitteratti Green Activists ready for their next micro aggression policing social media lynch mob shows the traditional side of wokesterism.

   It’s like the woke middle class identity politics mummy blogger trans ally Green Party cancel culture militant cyclist humourless vegan micro aggression policing activists are incapable of understanding how their behaviour over the last 3 years on social media has done nothing other than alienate voters to the point the Greens are now in danger of sinking beneath 5%.

   Not only like that. It is that. They think

   they are speaking truth to power by endlessly calling people out for breaches of woke mantra, but to everyone else they are simply toxic.

   When you are class left, the demarkation of power in society is between the richest 1% and their 9% enablers vs the 90% rest of us, that’s how we win the democratic majority, but when you are a woke Identity Politics activist, all men are rapists, all white people are racist and anyone supporting free speech is an actual uniform wearing Nazi.

   Yes, yes, but that's been obvious the past year or more, so why not learn the lesson? He can't – he's so fixated on bitching about the problem. If a faction seems to discredit a party in the public mind, you fix that problem by changing the public mind. That's what political management is for.

   Why have the Green caucus not used their moral authority to make that happen? Because too many of them are wokesters themselves, perhaps. Because those who aren't lack sufficient leverage. It's a failure of collective leadership.
   • Incognito 7.1

     23 September 2020 at 8:47 am

     Why have the Green caucus not used their moral authority to make that happen?

     The answer is in the question.
     • greywarshark 7.1.1

       23 September 2020 at 10:18 am

       Bradbury has been banging on about the same thing for some time. I think he is ageing mentally, getting into that inflexible style of thinking that is so prevalent in the older age group.

       Perhaps his blog has had its day as a therapeutic outlet for his boiling stresses, and he has gone to excess so often that he has poisoned any fertile ground around him where inspiration and creatively beneficial ideas might grow about better policies and wise politicians.
   • Robert Guyton 7.2

     23 September 2020 at 8:52 am

     " woke middle class identity politics mummy blogger trans ally Green Party cancel culture militant cyclist humourless vegan micro aggression policing activists"

     This interests me. As the world we are living in becomes more and more complex; ideas surface and add to those already circulating, they fracture and multiply like the brooms of the Sorcerer's apprentice, do we dig our heels in and sweep the nuanced plethora of new ideas away with our broom of conservatism and condemnation (listen to Magic talkback if you don't know what I mean) or do we surge forward, into the morass of fractionated thinking; meet those challenging ideas head-on and ride the wave of knowledge they represent? I reckon, catch the wave. Bomber seems to want to build a sandcastle on the beach, while wearing a knotted handkerchief on his head.
   • Sacha 7.3

     23 September 2020 at 9:06 am

     That rant reveals more about Bradbury than the party. What a word salad.
   • SPC 7.4

     23 September 2020 at 1:12 pm

     The irony of his past three years line – is he started the three years saying the same thing and has repeated it ad nauseum throughout the entire period.

     He basically wants to silence the Green Party on identity politics society concerns and reduce it to class and environment economics (not sure how that relates to historic party support for Maori self-government/revival aspiration, multi-cultural society and feminist concerns).

     He has basically taken up the Free Speech rights are at risk line of the ACT Party protecting white race man civilisation from the woke threat – which is what one would expect from someone who keeps meeting Sean Plunkett and the insolvent wage subsidy dependent libertarian.

     He will claim the polls prove him right – but that is cynical – minor parties in government lose support, and minor parties out of it but in parliament gain. As per 2002 – Alliance down and United Party up. This time NZF and Greens down and ACT up.
   • Ad 7.5

     23 September 2020 at 3:36 pm

     Bradbury is a pain in the ass.
8. Anker 8

   23 September 2020 at 8:28 am

   • Awlful to watch. Did anyone else think Campbell cut Jacinda off far more than Collins. ? I also noticed quite frequently when Jacinda was talking the camera went to Judith. And I am not sure about this but an after thought was that the camera angle favoured Judith. ……..interested to hear if others noticed this.
   • Thought Jacinda was not at her best. This is rare. Seem to remember first tv debate Jacinda was in with English didn’t go so well.

   I think it would be great if someone fact checked the debate. Collins said something about building houses and that I am sure was crap.

   campbell didn’t address competency of the two parties. I think that is a serious omission.

   national could spout any policy, but surely it blindingly obvious that they. Have lied, acted unethically and made major mistakes
   • Incognito 8.1

     23 September 2020 at 8:50 am

     Some fact-checking:

     https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/election-2020-the-whole-truth/#/1193304839/the-avocados-will-be-fine

     https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2020/08/election-2020-the-whole-truth/#/1193304232/collins-jobless-numbers-claim
   • halfcrown 8.2

     23 September 2020 at 9:06 am

     "Did anyone else think Campbell cut Jacinda off far more than Collins.?"

     YES

     "I also noticed quite frequently when Jacinda was talking the camera went to Judith. And I am not sure about this but an afterthought was that the camera angle favoured Judith. ……..interested to hear if others noticed this."

     YES. Also, I noticed that the focus was on Collins pulling stupid faces and slightly off focus on Ardern. Being a photographer this is a technique used to highlight the main subject,

     Also Campbell did not shut Collins up when Ardern was speaking so Ardern could not finish what she was saying.
     • Janet 8.2.1

       23 September 2020 at 9:47 am

       Agree with you on all points U made
   • Patricia Bremner 8.3

     23 September 2020 at 9:08 am

     Agreed 100% John Campbell may live for these debates but he did not ask any clarifying questions, nor was he actively listening to what Jacinda was saying, cutting her off at the end of her first point, more than once.

     The camera work and the lighting favoured Judith greatly, shaving at least 15 years off her face. The shadows showed Jacinda's almost gaunt look of 3 years of unrelenting responsibility, and the knowledge of what is ahead.

     However, I feel Jacinda's lack of reaction led to overconfidence on Judith's part, and Judith clearly showed her lack of respect and her scoffing "give back double" nature.

     The insincere swap between charm and scoffing was quite marked

     Jesicca Much MacKay is excited to lead "her" next debate!! "Judith did so well." "When is yours?" says John…..the ego of these people is amazing. It is all about them of course.
9. Robert Guyton 9

   23 September 2020 at 8:47 am

   I watched the first 5 minutes, but then found this!!! Really interesting!

   "New Zealand's oldest surviving observatory falling down in a field, held up only by a tree"

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/122815070/new-zealands-oldest-surviving-observatory-falling-down-in-a-field-held-up-only-by-a-tree
10. Stephen D 10

    23 September 2020 at 9:02 am

    Judith looked liked she was auditioning for Mean Girls.

    John doing his fanboy impersonation.

    Jacinda the only adult in the room.
11. Riff.s 11

    23 September 2020 at 9:15 am

    I didn't watch the debate because Collins repulses me. So l appreciate the updates. Sounds like Collins had more energy on the night but Ardern stuck to her high road approach.

    Ardern's main weapon is that she is a normal adult humanbeing and comes across as such. Sadly a rarity among senior politicians.
    • mpledger 11.1

      23 September 2020 at 9:34 am

      I didn't watch because I just find it all incredibly stupid anyway … and I find Judith's mantra of "hurting people double who hurt her" incredibly juvenile.

      Making enemies just means there are fewer and fewer people on your side and fewer people willing to go the extra mile to help you. It seems like an odd way to be a politician.
12. ScottGN 12

    23 September 2020 at 9:19 am

    This is totally anecdotal but a friend of a friend works for a Nat List MP. She said they’ve all started looking for new jobs.
    • Sacha 12.1

      23 September 2020 at 9:26 am

      Goldsmith's staff who check his numbers have clocked off already too.
13. Pat 13

    23 September 2020 at 9:49 am

    Well if anyone still has the will to do so after last night we can vote in 10 days (and counting)
    • Incognito 13.1

      23 September 2020 at 9:55 am

      Excellent comment! How many non-voters would have been enticed to vote now after watching this show on TV, if they watched at all? Is this format good for voter engagement?
      • Sabine 13.1.1

        23 September 2020 at 10:21 am

        How many non voters would waste their time watching a non debate?
      • Pat 13.1.2

        23 September 2020 at 10:23 am

        bullseye.
14. Reality 14

    23 September 2020 at 10:52 am

    I did not watch for one reason only – Judith Collins' sheer nastiness. I just don't choose to spend my time witnessing that sort of behaviour. We have had more than enough of National Party members and hangers on behaving disgracefully this year.

    Talking to friends this morning, they picked up on the eye rolling etc.etc. One used the words 'hate her' which is their usual way of talking.
15. Pat 15

    23 September 2020 at 11:05 am

    "Shifting Arctic ice, raging wildfires in western US states and elsewhere, and methane leaks in the North Sea are all warning signs that we are approaching a tipping point on climate change, when protecting the future of civilisation will require dramatic interventions.

    Under a “climate lockdown,” governments would limit private-vehicle use, ban consumption of red meat, and impose extreme energy-saving measures, while fossil-fuel companies would have to stop drilling. To avoid such a scenario, we must overhaul our economic structures and do capitalism differently.

    Many think of the climate crisis as distinct from the health and economic crises caused by the pandemic. But the three crises – and their solutions – are interconnected."

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/107187/mariana-mazzucato-sees-no-alternative-radical-overhaul-corporate-governance-finance
16. Sabine 16

    23 September 2020 at 11:18 am

    They will have a policy for this, right? Surely?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12367232

    The letter from Public Service Association (PSA) union members to senior managers was written in February this year but workers say little has changed since.

    The Chief Ombudsman inspected the unit in March and found it breached the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel or Degrading Treatment.

    In the strongly worded letter to Capital and Coast District Health Board, 28 staff detailed a list of what they called urgent and critical problems.

    They described the ward – Te Whare O Matairangi, Wellington's acute in-patient mental health facility – as severely overcrowded, under-resourced and unsafe – both for workers and patients.

    The letter gave examples such as a homicidal patient showing up with a bag of weapons, and a staff member being sexually assaulted.

    At the time it was written, most of the patients in the unit had a criminal or violent past including assaulting staff, significant stalking behaviour, arson and drug use.

    PSA organiser Alexandra Ward said the 29-bed unit was over capacity for 11 months of the past year, sometimes caring for 34 people at a time.
17. Herodotus 17

    23 September 2020 at 11:32 am

    so our pm who odds on will be on after the election still PM and could also govern alone, and then any legislation resulting from the cannabis vote can be whatever labour decides (captains call)will not tell us what her personal views are. Ffs you are a leader what are you afraid of ?? That your opinions may result is losing a few votes. Your opinion has more than any other in deciding how any law is shaped.

    imo this is steep walking to a victory, I hope that labour does not govern alone because they do not deserve to allow NZ to drift further. And their First past the post strategy just shows how they think the greens deserve to be managed… with distaste.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12355405
    • I Feel Love 17.1

      23 September 2020 at 2:55 pm

      I don't agree, remember Keys support of the flag, many people voted to keep the flag to spite Key. Adern staying out of it is sensible, as well as her right, to keep her decision private. Also, the euthanasia bill being supported by Seymour makes me question by own beliefs around it (I support it, or do I? I'm not 100% sure, coz Seymour supports it, loudly).
      • Herodotus 17.1.1

        23 September 2020 at 3:09 pm

        Our PM and labour keeping out of it is ALL political as IMO they want to win and govern on their own and will do whatever to achieve this (no team including The Greens). What happens if the vote is 45-55 or even 50-50?We have been given no indication as to what any law will look like or if should the vote be too close what then? So totally disagree.

        We appear to have a risk averse Labour Party.
        • Drowsy M. Kram 17.1.1.1

          23 September 2020 at 6:41 pm

          Labour will be averse to taking risks that might dent their commanding lead over the National opposition party in recent political opinion polls. I'm guessing their strategists are pretty comfortable letting National indulge in risky business, and there's been plenty of that since the Bridges-Ross spat kicked off, Boag-Walker, Andrew ‘Balloon-Falloon’, and ‘Merv from Manurewa’ being recent examples.

          There’s a lot riding on Collins’ eyebrows.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2020_New_Zealand_general_election#Graphical_summary
18. mac1 18

    23 September 2020 at 11:51 am

    At the end, when Campbell was wrapping up, he spoke of one of the two leaders being the Prime Minister.

    Interestingly, Ardern was looking straight ahead and Collins? She was looking at Ardern.

    It's the eyes that give us away………….
19. Paapapakaratua 19

    23 September 2020 at 11:59 am

    It's worse than that. Brexit has antagonized the US and Eu leading to a probable economic crisis on which Judith does not seem to have a constructive position.

    [This user handle and e-mail address are now blacklisted. Please use the pair that you last used on 21 Aug and that we had agreed on previously, thanks.

    You are wasting Moderator time each time you change your user name and/or e-mail address and you have never provided a good reason why you are doing it.

    I did ask you again only 2 days ago but you simply ignored the note so I wasted even more time on your antics when I gave you the benefit of doubt – Incognito]
    • Incognito 19.1

      23 September 2020 at 12:38 pm

      See my second Moderation note to you in 2 days @ 11:59 AM.
20. greywarshark 20

    23 September 2020 at 12:05 pm

    Thoughts from abroad – Headlines from UK The Telegraph: You will have to search for more details yourself. This is just to show the drift of the thinking of the UK.

    'Despite 10,000 new cases a day the French are embracing life – not imposing new rules.. From the Travel Correspondent.
    (The French have large numbers of cases of Covid19 and are still enjoying life. Fool or hardy? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.)

    Oxford’s Sir John Bell: ‘We’re not going to beat the second wave’
    Oxford University has announced that clinical trials of its coronavirus vaccine are to resume in the UK
    At lunchtime on Tuesday, Sir John Bell received a call telling him that the groundbreaking Oxford coronavirus vaccine trial would, regretfully, be paused.
    (So UK is at sixes and sevens. But they know what they are doing, right. Trust us to do the right thing is the Conservative approach – now they've kicked Labour and Corbyn to the side.)

    'We can beat Covid without lockdowns, says top German virologist
    Hendrik Streeck argues big gatherings in closed spaces amplify the spread, but going to shops or hairdressers are manageable levels of risk'

    Margaret Atwood wants to see The Handmaid's Tale scenario remain a fiction!

    And Brexit, the entitled classes from which Boris has arisen stamps its foot over EU intransigence or something. It's all their fault.
    The bad-faith EU is furious that the UK now has a backstop of its own
    The PM is offering Brussels a choice: negotiate fairly, or the whole country will leave without a deal
    • greywarshark 20.1

      23 September 2020 at 1:48 pm

      Are we feeling a little anxious while we wait for the election and the Right waffle on about things, and thrust sharp things into the thread of our democracy and then grab our arms and say 'Look at these holes we found', that they made themselves? And all the time the Left are doing a pretty-good job. Here is Jonathan Pie relating the cares and woes of the UK people about their Right government, that is attempting to lead them all up the garden path, like a character out of P.G.Wodehouse.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXdd8WzaK-Q

      Boris is advancing fast, he's a father now, and getting into confused grandfather territory at supersonic speed; reminiscent of the joke I got out of the paper years ago and put on the fridge:

      "My grandfather's a little forgetful, but he likes to give me advice. One day he took me aside, and left me there." Ron Richards* (Witty & Wise.)

      * Ron Richards (22 January 1929 – 30 April 2009) was a British record producer, manager and promoter, best known for discovering The Hollies. and – The record producer Ron Richards played a central part in the British “beat boom” of the 1960s, taking charge of the Beatles' first recording .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Richards_(producer)
21. Chris 21

    23 September 2020 at 12:32 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122845115/tick-tick-podcast-the-economic-phoney-war-and-what-will-happen-to-house-prices

    House prices will not take a hit because the wealthy will continue to buy them all up so nobody else can afford them.
    • Sabine 21.1

      23 September 2020 at 1:11 pm

      A friend who is a mortgage advisor told me that the banks apparently refuse to lend to people whose businesses either received the wage subsidy or who did receive the wage subsidy themselves. So yeah, anyone who thought that the low lever interests would benefit the houseless is in for serious disappointment.

      At this stage the housing market – private, social and commercial – and the official response to it is nothing more but a farce.
22. Drowsy M. Kram 22

    23 September 2020 at 12:45 pm

    "Of the tattoo, Collins said she particularly liked the golden gun."
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/woman-golden-gun-judith-collins-meets-waikato-man-got-tattoo-national-leader

    "Asked if he would get another tattoo of an MP, he tossed up getting a David Seymour – Act's leader – face on his other leg."
    https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/face-face-judith-collins-meets-adoring-supporter-who-got-tattoo-her-his-leg

    Yes, Judith Collins sat down with an “adoring supporter” who has a tattoo of the latest leader of the opposition on one of his thighs. Could this be a turning point in Collins' election campaign (worked for Trump) – maybe we'll all see more of her soon.

    https://www.ktnv.com/now-trending/ohio-man-has-donald-trumps-face-tattooed-on-arm

    https://www.wnep.com/article/news/local/trump-stamp-man-gets-trump-tattoo-on-lower-back-after-losing-bet/523-a89bac84-d7eb-4523-9551-83a5e89c7825

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3937678/British-roofer-38-gets-huge-tattoo-Donald-Trump-leg-says-doesn-t-mind-criticism-great-art-controversial.html
23. PsyclingLeft.Always 23

    23 September 2020 at 12:53 pm

    @ 22 The "minds" (I use the term advisedly : ) of them . Gotta laugh
24. Gabby 24

    23 September 2020 at 1:25 pm

    Let me know if you'd like some more.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
    • weka 24.1

      23 September 2020 at 2:21 pm

      would you like to be out for the day?
      • Gabby 24.1.1

        23 September 2020 at 4:38 pm

        Once a month I'm allowed out for the day.
25. SPC 25

    23 September 2020 at 2:17 pm

    The way to reduce house prices is known.

    It is with the cost of paying a mortgage or limitation on access to finance to buy.

    A guy called Bollard said he would not need to increase the OCR to constrain inflation resulting from rising land and property value if the government introduced a mortgage surcharge instead – then the OCR would be lower and so would the dollar to the advantage of exporters.

    But now over a decade later and still nothing. The RBG gets rid of the equity requirement and cuts the OCR and so of course property values will rise.

    This will change as soon as the government adds a mortgage surcharge or taxes equity in property (TOP) or a land tax. Of course only taxing property equity wealth over $M is Green policy.

    Lower interest rates only benefit those with access to property finance, a mortgage surcharge is the balance to this so that government can help tenants and finance homes for first home buyers or build more state houses.
    • greywarshark 25.1

      23 September 2020 at 2:23 pm

      We used as first home buyers, to get a 25 year mortgage at an affordable rate, and that was a good start. It encouraged people to settle into stable lives etc etc. But though you would think that good people in government roles would want that, I think that this evil neolib economics is actually keen to keep people on the hop, make them work harder, not be complacent, and ensure that they didn't have anything to sink savings into, underpay them so they had to borrow so business would profit from the interest they had to pay to provide the necessities demanded in a 'developed' economy, and keeping more money flowing in the economy.

      It is such a twisted approach that ordinary people don't comprehend it; don't understand the diabolical nature of the financial people at the top who twiddle the economy's knobs.
      • SPC 25.1.1

        23 September 2020 at 2:36 pm

        Yes a government could waive the mortgage surcharge for first home buyers …
        • greywarshark 25.1.1.1

          23 September 2020 at 2:55 pm

          It used to be expressed that government gave first home buyers a step up into the housing market to get them started. But neolib doesn't want people to even get started. Don Brash didn't think that people should be tying their money up in their own house. Though the system produced a stable and relatively happy country pleased and proud most of the time.

          Not the way we are now with an attitude of the quick or the dead, and lack of generosity towards others, competing for stuff all the time. To the people at the top the hoi polloi are just to be used as if life was a cockfight, and the hens get slaughtered if they don't produce enough eggs. As you can tell, I am pretty disillusioned – the NZ spirit is mainly found in bottles now.
26. rod 26

    23 September 2020 at 3:07 pm

    I think Collins sounded more like Trump. Me me me, I know best, Vote for me,
27. Whispering Kate 27

    23 September 2020 at 3:29 pm

    Judith Collins is just a trashy piece of trailer trash. Her "poor wee thing" describing Jacinda Adern is classic "how low can you get" – uncouth is another description or as my old grannie used to say to me "all hair oil and no socks". She is a disgrace to any position of responsibility or representation of our country. Jacinda Adern should never have to be put in a position that she has to even engage with her. Fine porcelain versus crude pottery. Trump is the company Collins deserves.
    • millsy 27.1

      23 September 2020 at 4:13 pm

      She is starting to make John Key look reasonable.

      I'll tell you what. The sooner this election comes round, the better.
28. Corey Humm 28

    23 September 2020 at 3:29 pm

    I think it's a major miscalculation to think people are flocking to Labour and a self described bold progressive because they think she'll be moderate and consersative.

    What if labours rise in the polls is due to non voters who jacindas boldness turned on and who need change and former Nat voters whose lives have fallen apart and this moderate tinkering approach makes them stay home. Honestly. Labours dropped in the polls since it announced policy and showed it's cautious af direction. Labours messaging just seems so wrong for the times.

    Labour desperately needs to start exciting people again. People who were excited are getting bored and despondent. Maybe I'm wrong maybe people are flocking to her because they want a self described transformational progressive to not be bold or transformational and middle class people are flocking to Labour cos they want everything to stay the same. I think it's a bit of both
    • Ad 28.1

      23 September 2020 at 3:33 pm

      Labour still has the highest polling it's had in thirty years.

      Sure we're not exciting, but not-exciting is effectively eating National.

      Trust the hard left to whine about it.
      • AB 28.1.1

        23 September 2020 at 6:01 pm

        "Labour … is effectively eating National"

        They'll need a cast-iron gut to keep the meal down – but it's a dirty job that needs doing. They might even become a genuine conservative (in the best sense of the word) party. One worthy of respect – which we don't have at present.
        • greywarshark 28.1.1.1

          23 September 2020 at 8:48 pm

          Trust the hard left to whine about it. Calling an anxious voter looking for policy change 'hard left' is hard Ad. It's nervousness really – probably better left unsaid at this stage.
    • Andre 28.2

      23 September 2020 at 4:17 pm

      If people want bold transformational progressives, why aren't they flocking to the Greens?
      • Pat 28.2.1

        23 September 2020 at 6:33 pm

        Good question
      • Drowsy M. Kram 28.2.2

        23 September 2020 at 7:02 pm

        Maybe those who really want "bold transformational progressives" have already flocked – the rest are hunkering down, still hoping to weather a 'storm' that shall not pass.
29. greywarshark 29

    23 September 2020 at 4:19 pm

    edit
    This is a good bit of goss and shows our system is working at weeding out the baddies eventually, somewhat.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/426737/spy-camera-case-police-appeal-suppression-of-former-government-employee

    A former senior government manager planted a spy camera in an Auckland gym's changing room capturing video of a naked couple, then went on to plant the camera on at least three more occasions, the Auckland High Court has heard.

    Police appealing the man's discharge without conviction and permanent name suppression, argued his offending, which took place on at least four separate days, was not taken into account by District Court Judge Clare Bennett.

    RNZ and NZME also challenged the man's name suppression.

    I wonder if we have here the Judge adopting Queen Victoria’s moral levels whereby if one doesn’t want one’s mind to be sullied by distasteful scuttlebutt, one just doesn’t listen. The Queen is supposed to have said, “I don’t want to know that.” The better secondary schools now probably don’t even study DH Lawrence Lady Chatterley’s Lover.

    ‘We’re better than that’, is the quote of the new century, to be applied to bloody massacres, and derelictions of duty by well-paid government officials. I can say that, without a qualm, that bit about well-paid, because it seems to be an absolute dead cert these days as the anointed move up the line following the well-worn Peter’s Principle Curve.
30. PsyclingLeft.Always 30

    24 September 2020 at 4:56 pm

    "Westpac has agreed to pay a record $A1.3 billion ($NZ1.4b) fine for major breaches of money laundering and terror financing laws."

    https://www.odt.co.nz/business/westpac-cops-record-fine-australia

    I've often wondered….why is westpac our NZ Govt's Bank? Maybe Kiwibank should be…

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