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Open Mike 23/05/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 23rd, 2017 - 185 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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185 comments on “Open Mike 23/05/2017”

    • Ed 1.1

      This is what happens when you offer a socialist alternative to neoliberalism…..
      Will NZ Labour learn from this?
      I doubt it. Too many members of the cargo cult in the party.

      • weka 1.1.1

        Similar dynamic but different circumstances. We don’t have a Corbyn here. It’s not just about policy and kaupapa, it’s about who has the strength to deal with the neoliberals in the party and then in the media. Corbyn did it his way, Little is doing it another way.

    • JC 1.2

      Reuters reports British Prime Minister Theresa May’s Conservatives will suspend campaigning for the national election on June 8.

      “A Tory (Conservative) source speaking to the Press Association (news agency) said that the Prime Minister’s general election campaign was being suspended,” Sky News said.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/331368/live-blog-19-dead-50-injured-in-manchester-explosion

  1. Sanctuary 2

    UK Labour goes from six points behind to ten points ahead in Wales.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/22/voting-intention-wales-labour-44-conservatives/

    The panic in the UK establishment and the right wing media is real, the IRA smear of Corbyn is designed to get the conversation off policy and back onto knee jerk hysteria.

  2. red-blooded 3

    Roman Lord (Labour candidate for East Coast Bays) who’s thrown a hissy fit about his position on the list and claims his position at 72 was at least in part because he’s a white, middle class male, needs to do quite a bit of growing up. The list selection process gives any interested member an input into ranking their local candidates and presumably he wasn’t highly rated. Hey, it’s a competitive process – not everyone can win.

    I thought Little did a good job responding to questions about this on Morning Report, but Lord shouldn’t have put him in this position in the first place. He shouldn’t have put himself forward if he was going to be so fragile and damage the party because his pride got damaged.

    • Ad 3.1

      He’s acting like a … Roman Lord!

    • mickysavage 3.2

      I have never met him and I doubt he has been a member for long. I saw him at the list conference and he gave only an OK speech. His comments suggest he has no idea how the Labour Party works.

      Very good candidates have worked for years to get into a position where they could become MPs.

      • McFlock 3.2.1

        Exactly. You do your time in the blue areas in the arse end of the list, avoid major fuckups or tantys like this, and then you build a political skillset.

        Me, I’m far too unelectable personally (yeah I like to call fuckers “fucko” in real life, too), but I’ve had a couple of friends/acquaintances walk down that path.

    • Anne 3.3

      Rohan Lord.

    • Cinny 3.4

      If Roman really had his heart in, he should have just dismissed his ranking on a list and worked hard to become the MP for East Coast Bays. It wouldn’t have been easy, but it would have been worth it.

      Maybe he’ll have another crack at it next election?

      The next PM of NZ and Leader of the Labour Party is handling this small hiccup beautifully.

      The outgoing governments list is still to come, eleven of their current MP’s are not seeking re-election. Are they having trouble finding candidates?

      • garibaldi 3.4.1

        Why should he be accepted as a candidate next time? I would have no hesitation in telling him to shove off.

    • millsy 3.5

      Didnt Helen Clark contest a safe National seat in her first election. Instead of throwing her toys, it looked like she knuckled down and campaigned instead, learning the ropes. Her hard work would be rewarded in the next election when she got, and won, Mt Albert.

      I think Rohan expected to be parachuted into a safe seat and a high list placing on his first go, presumably because he was a sporting personality.

      • Jilly Bee 3.5.1

        She sure did Millsy – Piako in the Waikato, one of the bluest of seats. I was part of her support team based in Morrinsville in 1975. We had a great time even though we knew it would not be successful

    • DoublePlusGood 3.6

      Wait, he was fortunate enough to get both an electorate to run in and raise his personal profile, and he got a position on the list? Isn’t that a vote of confidence that your party considers you a suitable person to be an MP and they want to give you a chance to get experience so you can be an MP in future?
      I guess he failed that opportunity in spectacular fashion and his unsuitability for any sort of public office has been clearly shown.

    • Chris 3.7

      Labour should be pleased he’s gone after he spoke this morning.

  3. One Anonymous Bloke 4

    Prof. Geddis doesn’t sound very impressed:

    …either Bill English was lying to Susie Ferguson on the radio, or his advisors lied to him about what TPP11 will require, or the Crown’s lawyers are lying to the Waitangi Tribunal. I report, you decide.

    After all, it isn’t like Double Dipton has ever been caught lying now, eh. No, wait…

    • The Chairman 4.1

      Labour should be capitalizing off of this.

      It’s a shame Labour aren’t not more vocal on the matter.

      Yet to see anything on Labour’s website regarding the resurrection of the TPP.

  4. Ad 5

    Thoroughly enjoyed this Israeli military view of Trump’s determination to completely wipe out ISIS:

    Their ideal strategy is to sit back and let Al Qaeda and ISIS duke it out—and work to contain the conflict rather than trying to end it with military force. As the IDF intelligence officer put it, “the battle for deterrence is easier than the battle for influence.”

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172?lo=ap_d1

    • McFlock 5.1

      Well, yeah, but the Israelis have had that policy for decades: encourage their enemies to fight each other.

      Not that Trump is right, but the Israeli “answer” is perpetual war in the Middle East, just not in Israel.

      • garibaldi 5.1.1

        Quite so McFlock. It stands out like dogs balls that Israel is benefitting from all this sunni/shia conflict. What’s the bet that they are involved up to their eyeballs in keeping it this way? No doubt about it.
        The USA- Israel- Saudi Arabia cabal are all ” working ” in the interest of Zionism.
        They just have to keep fomenting conflict upon conflict to keep things going in their direction.

      • I’d go one further. For Israel, a long war of attrition in Syria, combined with a mass exodus of refugees, will make it very easy for them to annex a little more territory on the Syrian side of the Golan heights under the pretext of ensuring ‘stability’ and ‘security’ due to ‘threats’ from Hezbollah. Should Assad survive, he’ll be too weak to take them on; should he fall, they have the ideal pretext for an expanded security buffer.

        Al-Qaeda and ISIS: innit funny that they’ve both focused so heavily in taking on Israel’s enemies in the region, while never quite seeming to get around to any actions of significance against the nation they supposedly hate so much. Almost as if…

        • McFlock 5.1.2.1

          Well, maybe, but I suspect that the Israelis took exactly as much of the Golan Heights as they strategically wanted, given the lay of the land.

          As for your AQ/ISIS theory… yeah, whatever.

          • Cemetery Jones 5.1.2.1.1

            Oh totally, I mean, it would be like if the Soviet Union went to war against everyone except capitalists. Probably totally legit.

            • McFlock 5.1.2.1.1.1

              Not really.
              Israel has been doing domestic security in a high threat environment for 70 years. They make the TSA look like buffoons. It’s a hard target.

              But your competition for recruits, on the other hand… right next to you, competing for the same resources. You’re gonna fight them.

              • Israeli security is legendary – the Brits found in the late 40s that they couldn’t keep a step ahead of them or keep anything from them – I suspect the experiences of the previous decade shaped that aspect. But, that doesn’t quite explain why the most fetishized of Israel’s enemies are the target of two organisations which ostensibly formed to fight them. After all, Palestinians have been smuggling weapons past them just as successfully for every one of those 70 years. It’s not like AQ or IS couldn’t have gotten in there. Additionally, the IAF has flown numerous illegal sorties attacking the SAA, Hezbollah and other Shiite militias at will despite them being exclusively engaged in regime defence. But not so with AQ or IS. I mean, I’ve experienced and observed coincidences in my time, but…

                • McFlock

                  After all, Palestinians have been smuggling weapons past them just as successfully for every one of those 70 years

                  When was the last Palestinian bombing in Israel?

                  • According to Google, a bus in Tel Aviv, April last year.

                    • McFlock

                      Yup. No dead except the bomber.
                      1 in 2015, 1 fatality other than the bomber.
                      And then nothing until 2008.

                      And these are the folks with experience “for every one of those 70 years”.

                      Oh, sure, I suspect AQ/ISIS would love a big statement in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, but they would have extreme difficulty getting it set up and they know it’s be followed by a large can of Israeli whoop-ass, and the Israelis are really good at targeting essential personnel.

                    • That’s ok, we’re talking about Jihadists who look forward to death, aren’t we? Why would jihadists fear death?

                    • McFlock

                      Well, you might as well ask why don’t they just shoot themselves instead of mounting suicide attacks?

                      They have a clear objective they wish to bring about. Fucking off the Israelis is contrary to achieving that objective.

                      There’s irrational, and then there’s incoherent, lol

                    • Actually, for AQ and IS, destroying Israel is part of what they claim their objective is – which brings us back to where we started – how strange it is that they seem to prefer attacking enemies of Israel to proving that they themselves are enemies of Israel.

                    • McFlock

                      Not really strange if you look at their situation and locations.

                      Israel’s on the “to do” list, definitely. But first things first.

          • Bill 5.1.2.1.2

            Clinton’s emails on the subject make interesting reading.

            Israel has a “thing” about Iran (I know, who doesn’t these days 🙄 ) and absolutely wants the support for Hezbollah in the Lebanon ended. That means bye-bye Syria (it being the conduit between Iran and the Lebanon).
            ________

            Then there’s – ISIS and Al Qaeda also want Iran gone (obviously)

            Israel is still technically at war with Syria.

            Israel has been treating ISIS terrorists and has even publicly apologised for killing some of their number.
            ______________

            Fast forward to the potential of Syria ‘gone’. That’s a huge number of refugees fleeing every which way to get away from head-choppers. Then (say the remaining regional powers) the head-choppers must go…so, Turkey cleans out and occupies swathes across its current Syrian border. Israel does likewise. Hell, Iraq or even Iraqi Kurdistan might be given a wee slice of pie.

            And the Saudi’s? What do the Saudi’s do? Do they let the whole Syria thing be carved up with nothing in it for them in return for Iran being placed on tender-hooks? Maybe.

            • Cemetery Jones 5.1.2.1.2.1

              Idlib will be the Saudi slice of the action if it goes that way.

            • McFlock 5.1.2.1.2.2

              Israel apologised for an attack on ISIS? Really?

              I’ve heard it the other way around: that ISIS attacked some Israeli units, were soundly retaliated against, and apologised for kicking the tiger. But I’d really like a link for Israel apologising for killing ISIS fighters.

              • Bill

                Oops. They medically treat, but you’re right on the apology incident – t’was the other way around! My bad 😉

  5. Adrian Thornton 6

    The first hard hitting interview I have seen with Theresa May, definitely worth a watch….if the media had actually been asking her indepth questions like this from the beginning, the Tories would been slipping even worse in the polls than they are now,
    Andrew Neil Interviews Theresa May.

    • greywarshark 6.1

      Looking at Theresa May the question of why females still have to go through the ritual of painting on, wearing make-up, spending the time enhancing eyelashes, defining eyebrows, eyeshadow, lipstick etc. Just simple light powder over the nose and forehead when on screen is all that is needed for image.

      Why not spend 10 minutes in the morning reading something about philosophy and how it is interwoven with economics. That would be the most fruitful piece of thinking of her or any other pollies day.

      • james 6.1.1

        “Looking at Theresa May the question of why females still have to go through the ritual of painting on, wearing make-up, spending the time enhancing eyelashes, defining eyebrows, eyeshadow, lipstick etc. Just simple light powder over the nose and forehead when on screen is all that is needed for image.”

        Who are you to say how she should do her make up or what is “needed”. Do you want ot tell her how to dress as well?

        If she wants to put on makeup and feels good for it – good for her.

        • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.1

          Greywarshark, so far as I can tell, is not speaking to Teresa May, he’s posing a question to us about make up use and offering his view, “Just simple light powder over the nose and forehead when on screen is all that is needed for image”. He doesn’t have to pass your, “who are you?” test to offer his opinion, does he, James?

          • james 6.1.1.1.1

            No s/he is making comment about Theresa Mays makeup – thus the “looking at Theresa May” bit.

            She should be able to put on as much makeup as she likes, for whatever reason she likes or feels without having people comment on it and others deciding “what is needed”.

            Or do you think its appropriate that men can comment on what a woman should wear (makeup or clothes).

            • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.1.1.1

              Theresa Mary May, British politician, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, should expect people, even anonymous posters on a foreign blog, not to comment about how much makeup she uses???

              Are you completely off the planet? A famous person should expect to go un-commented upon???

              Dizzying thinking there, James.

            • The decrypter 6.1.1.1.1.2

              James.Would it be ok for her to appear nude in public “

        • greywarshark 6.1.1.2

          James
          Who are you to tell me what my opinion should be. If I want to say that she would be a better politician if she put in the time reading some publication that expresses new thoughts that’s my right.

          And further I express the opinion that you should do some reading and learning which might benefit TS instead of your kneejerk conformist reactions which you seem to think indicates you are a fair and free thinker. That might make you feel good and it would be something to congratulate you for.

          • james 6.1.1.2.1

            There are places that welcome men who tell women how to dress and what to wear.

            Its my opinion that you may fit in there.

            The fact you ignore all the bits about her makeup and just go to the reading comment is a shallow attempt to justify your comment.

            • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.2.1.1

              “There are places that welcome men who tell women how to dress and what to wear.”

              Fashion Houses?: Gavinchy’s? Christian Dior’s? Alexander Wang’s? Balenciaga’s, McQueen’s, Aquazzura’s; can you see yourself in any of these, Greywarshark, as James sees you, seemingly?
              Greywarshark, fashionista!
              Breathtaking!

    • Bill 6.2

      Very clunky edit at about 6min 48sec. Wonder what that was about?

      Anyway. The woman’s a fucking idiot. No wonder she’s insisted on pre-prepared questions, avoiding the public and bailing from any TV leaders debate.

    • Editractor 6.3

      Forget the makeup. I’d just like to say that that is a strong and stable necklace May is wearing.

  6. greywarshark 7

    Tipping good says Poorer Benefit.
    After all, she thinks, we Nat pollies get tipped all the time for giving good service to those we work to serve, so hey go for it.

    Interesting interview on tipping with academic from USA. He says that it becomes mandatory because of social pressure and norms, and the waiter gets more if they interact with the customer, smile, crouch down to get to eye level etc. And with that in mind, he points out that big-breasted blonde women get more than other women, and interestingly blacks get less than whites. It gives customers a feel of control which they like in the USA.

    Personally I would hate feeling pressured by some hovering waiter. I start to feel that everyone out there is after something from me and my money, by fair means or foul. (Paranoid or a reaction to the reality I encounter?) It is a double pressure as I would then have to tip him to make him or her go away.

    RadioNZ
    To tip or not to tip…
    From Nine To Noon, 20 minutes ago
    Listen duration 7′ :03″
    The Deputy Prime Minister, Paula Bennett has suggested New Zealand should embrace tipping to improve the quality of service for tourists. Ms Bennett, who is also the Tourism Minister, made the comments in a letter to the New Zealand Herald and has been backed up by the Restaurant Association and the Hospitality Association. Kathryn Ryan speaks to Professor Michael Lynn,from Cornell University who’s published more than 50 academic papers on the subject of tipping.

    • Dv 7.1

      Yes, pay pollies a basic wage, then distribute the saving. So we can then tip the pollies for good service.

      AND there is nothing to stop tourists tipping anyway.

    • Whispering Kate 7.2

      As far as I am concerned tipping a service worker is just another way, we the stupid public are sucked into subsidising the employer of that worker and aiding and abetting him keeping the employee’s wages supressed.

      If a service industry has to rely on tips to their workers to keep their business surviving then the business owner shouldn’t be operating in the first place, Why on earth should a service worker need to rely on tips if the company is paying a decent living wage. Keep tipping out of NZ – bosses are bad enough as it is paying a decent wage, don’t subsidise them.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.3

      So long as she can include the tips in the the minimum wage calculation, Paula will be happy.

      …And transfer the balance to the business owner, should the tips exceed the minimum wage.

      Strong and Stable Brighter Future!!

    • I always got tips as a tour guide – i did come to expect them and it really made a difference financially. Waiters and service people not so sure it’s good for them unless it is on top of a good hourly rate.

      • greywarshark 7.5.1

        marty mars
        Yes I agree. A good hourly rate. But going on what NZ legislation and practice has been for the last 30 years, the mean attitude that is prevalent in this country, and the inefficient way that business run which can’t survive without stretching wages thin like rubber bands, I doubt that there would be money other than tips enough to pay transport to and from work.

        Quote from someone who came here after WW2 when he was six and thought NZ was a great place, though opportunity in Europe came up and he returned there. He was here 1948-1963 and visited in the 1990s. He states:

        The almost classless society I remembered had disappeared….On one hand extravagant houses perched on cliffs or set in extensive gardens , on the other, families living in caravans or shacks on cheap campsites or no man’s land.

        In the city centres I saw queues at soup kitchens, people rummaging in litter baskets, and begging in the street. Symbolic of this destitution were the opportunity shops not just in the cities but even in the smallest towns throughout the country.

        His summary – New Zealand society between 1948-1963 didn’t need opportunity shops. New Zealand itself was a real opportunity shop.
        (The Opportunity Shop – Growing up in New Zealand 1948-1963.
        Author Michael Mence)

    • Sabine 7.6

      i waitressed in France and Germany
      fixed minimum wage (FF 5.600 around 1700 NZD per month at the time), tips (up to a full wage if one was light on the feet – a good waitress can manage two lunch services in her corner of table 🙂 ) , accom (ski stations) and food (on full meal per shift plus free non alcoholic beverages/coffee/tea)- no better way to make good money, travel the world a bit all the while working and manage to hold on to your money for the most part.

      the US tipped wage, a lower then usual taxed min wage currently hovering around 2.60 – 2.70 $ per hour plus tips, is a different beast. That is not even substance level, and often these women – and the majority of tipped wage earners are women – are supplemented with Food stamps, Medicaid, and such.

      I am quite certain that Paula Benet is not talking about the first scenario.

      • greywarshark 7.6.1

        Sabine
        Agree. We haven’t had a positive attitude to working people receiving fair wages and being able to work hard and get ahead for decades. We are in a society that screws people down just like every third world one. If we don’t change we will be end up among the lowest corrupt dictatorship.

  7. saveNZ 8

    Interesting research about how Metservice due to it’s government obligation to make money rather than solely provide a public service has a 49% stake in MetOcean, which provides special oceanic weather forecasts for the deep sea oil and gas industry…

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/05/21/so-who-funds-metservice-the-weird-madness-behind-the-20-meter-wave-story/

    Is the National government obsessed with trying to get NZ into the stone age? While other countries are divesting in oil and gas knowing that it’s a dying industry, our government is forcing government services into this industry with public money that should be going for public good!

    • greywarshark 8.1

      Good question saveNZ. Why don’t you send an email to all the Gnashional MPs and Pm just to place the question within their purview, as they will never have confronted such thoughts before.

  8. UncookedSelachimorpha 9

    NZ Labour is going full Brighter Future, planning to use public infrastructure projects to transfer public wealth to rich private owners of capital:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/331349/labour-open-to-private-partnerships-or-overseas-investors

    They have tied themselves in irrational “fiscal responsibility” knots, so they are only left with National’s lame and failed ideas. SAD.

    • saveNZ 9.1

      I agree Sad (some sort of time warp of policy) but the alternative of 3 more years of Natz is even worse.

      I’m just hoping for a 3 way, with Labour, Greens and NZ First with Mana for Maori and hopefully between the lot of them some sort of change and sense prevails. At least the opposition are not corrupt like the Natz.

      We know society will get worse under the Natz – like Theresa May (God help the UK if she gets in), there is an ideology of just disgusting policy and gross stupidity that just emulates from Natz, they have been in power too long.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.1.1

        ” but the alternative of 3 more years of Natz is even worse. ”

        I do agree, I’d much prefer the lesser evil of labour. But so disappointing Labour is not offering anything other than TINA.

        “Natz, they have been in power too long”

        Personally I’m not buying the third term fatigue bit…I thought they were awful from the get-go!

    • The Chairman 9.2

      It would be interesting to know if the vast majority of Labour supporters oppose PPPs? And if so, why would Labour position themselves against their own support?

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.2.1

        Unfortunately their policies reek of trying to follow what they guess public opinion might be, rather than actually showing some leadership and inspiring people to better things.

  9. This explosion – they just said 19 dead – getting a bad vibe from this one. RIP and thinking about all those who have lost…

    • Sabine 10.1

      Ariana Grande is an ex Disney Star and her viewers are generally young teens with parents.

      Sadness everywhere.

      • What kind of ideology would drive someone to do such a thing…

        • Sabine 10.1.1.1

          it appears to be a suicide bomber in an outside area.

          It also appears that most of the death came about by trying to leave the venue. essentially a stampede..

          sadness,
          and you can’t prevent it, and its all kind of ideologies or lack there of that has driven people since eons to do such things.

          • Cemetery Jones 10.1.1.1.1

            It was the IRA when I was a kid – but they didn’t like killing children, or even killing people generally, and with the exception of a few splinter groups tended to tip off the authorities before their bombs went off so that it would cause disruption and property damage, but not death. Can’t recall them ever suicide bombing though, that one’s unique to just a couple groups I can think of. Come to think of it, I can’t recall the IRA repeatedly driving trucks into people, either.

            As for not being able to prevent it ….if they keep it up at the rate they’re going, things are going to change very quickly. Frau Merkel and Monsieur Macron have their European project to protect, after all. And for Britain, May will soon have the kind of super-majority which will allow all kinds of responses. Things are very Weimar right now.

            • Sabine 10.1.1.1.1.1

              ahh, the years of the IRA / Red Army Faction i remember them well.
              Mogadishou Lufthansa_Flight_181, the First Intifada, the Olympic Games of 1972 in Munich,

              just a few that i can remember.

              Must’ave been the good old times.
              .

              • Whispering Kate

                Makes me feel old Sabine, I was on my OE in London when the IRA was playing havoc with the London utilities. Many a time we had to divert from different methods of transport to get our weary bones home at night after work because of bomb scares in the tube stations. It wore my parents ragged worrying about me over there. And the passing a hot potato in a pub joke which went around the drinking classes!!!! It seems radical groups have been doing their damage for years on end.

                • How often did they kill children?

                  • Sabine

                    are random children killed more offensive to you then a random dead women or a random dead man if all had been killed by some random person with a gun or a bomb?

                    • They’re more offensive to me if someone did it because of ideology rather than mental illness or other factors beyond their control, if that’s what you mean? All the more so if it’s the ideology of a pervy sky wizard.

        • gsays 10.1.1.2

          Hi cj,
          The US were indiscriminate about children with both the bombs they dropped on Japan in 1945.
          The carnage from that ideology carries on for generations.

    • McFlock 10.3

      yeah. Fuck.

      Tossers.

    • Bill 10.4

      Why is “terrorism” always the first port of call for western authorities these days?

      It couldn’t have been some terrible accident involving a commercial gas canister or some such – a contained reticulated gas explosion even – given it was in the foyer area?

      • marty mars 10.4.1

        I suppose because gas canisters don’t explode in crowds of innocent people very often and people blowing themselves up or causing attempted megadeath do occur much more frequently.

        • Bill 10.4.1.1

          I’d guess (just a guess mind) that more gas cannisters blow up than people blowing themselves up in England.

          Tend not to hear about the gas cannisters though, unless there’s significant damage or loss of life, whereas a suicide bomber inadvertently ‘kabooming’ their own flat would be major news.

          If I had to choose the likelihood of this incident being between just those two possibilities (and I’m not saying there aren’t others), then I’d pick someone accidentally leaving gas running and it being sparked by someone leaving, lighting up or some such, before I’d pick someone going to a concert, waiting until it finishes and then blowing themselves up on the way out.

          But hell, I don’t even know if a source of gas was in the building…

          • marty mars 10.4.1.1.1

            So many regs around gas bottles all trying to keep them safe and it isn’t a Hollywood movie.

            • Bill 10.4.1.1.1.1

              ..it isn’t a Hollywood movie

              This we agree on. And even though they usually aren’t up to the hype that accompanies them, at least the hype makes sense in terms of marketing.

      • weka 10.4.2

        The first media reports I saw said explosion not terrorism.

        • Bill 10.4.2.1

          And on the reaction of authorities (which is what I was referring to), the police issued statements saying terrorism unless proved otherwise – and apart from Jeremy Corbyn and Andy Burnham (Manchester Mayor), as far as I’ve seen, all politicians are going with some form of terrorism/attack

          Same for this morning’s front pages in the UK.

          edit – just seen that police are reporting confirmation of a dead person and an IED. So…ID and motive of said person…?

          • weka 10.4.2.1.1

            yes, I’m in agreement with you generally on the PR and media handling.

            The thing that interests me is that if the intent of terrorists is to terrorise, why the countries being attacked don’t develop strategies for lessening terror in their people, *whatever the event that’s just taken place. I can only surmise that people in charge are stupid enough to believe they can win and so aren’t too worried about upping the ante.

            • Bill 10.4.2.1.1.1

              Way I look at it, it serves both sides.

              We’re just the meat in the sandwich to be chewed up. Do “our betters” think they can win? Or are they content to have never ending tension they can use in ways that bolsters their own position?

              A frightened population is a population that’s easier to contain and control.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                A frightened population is a population that’s easier for populists to manipulate and control. FIFY

                Hardly a recipe for containment or stability, as the current situation in the USA surely demonstrates.

  10. james 11

    People that do things like this – there are no words I can think of to describe the evil.

    May they rot in hell.

    • weka 11.1

      I think they’re evil too. I also think governments like the US that bomb civilians are likewise evil. It’s not rocket science to figure out what is going on.

      • WOW.

        We’re talking about the same death cult which had one of it’s sex-starved useful idiots drive a truck down a street full of civvies in Stockholm killing kids and even managing to pancake someone’s pet dog which was with them at the time. Just which vast swathes of the middle east or other Islamic lands did Sweden ever bomb, colonise, or otherwise victimise to deserve such activity?

        I’m not exactly Jack W Parsons, so my rocket science is not good, but to suggest that civilians killed during American bombings are adequate cause to inspire someone to suicide bomb kids in Manchester or run children and pets over in Stockholm sounds to me not to be rocket science, but the beginnings of Dhimmitude.

        They’re building a global fucking Caliphate – they’ve said as much. Why not just take them at their word? Mohammed began his first war of conquest centuries before the USA was a nation-state, and these guys believe that they are just finishing what he started. They’ve said as much many a time, so why not believe them? I would assert that this is what a rocket scientist would probably do.

        • weka 11.1.1.1

          “but to suggest that civilians killed during American bombings are adequate cause to inspire someone to suicide bomb kids”

          I didn’t say that. Those are your ideas not mine.

          • Cemetery Jones 11.1.1.1.1

            Alright, I’ll take you at your word. What did you mean when you said, “It’s not rocket science to figure out what is going on.”?

            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.1

              You treat people like shit long enough and bad enough they will act like shit or use it as an excuse to act like shit. It’s not saying it’s a valid excuse or ‘adequate’ cause. But then bombing kids for oil isn’t adequate cause either.

              I also think that there is a mix of pretty repugnant ideology mixed in with treating people badly mixed in with poverty and disenfranchisement. Drop bombs on them and see what happens. I’m not talking what’s right, I’m talking how violence dynamics play out.

              • Ok, that’s …. so wrong I’m kind of stunned. I cited the example of Sweden, for instance. If your comment accurately represents ‘how the violence dynamics play out’, then how did Sweden, which is not a member of NATO, has never colonised any part of the Islamic world, and has welcomed an unbelievable amount of refugees & treated them excellently, end up with children and animals, not to mention civilian adults – run down by a jihadist in a truck? This appears to be in contrast to these violence dynamics and then some. Let’s add Denmark while we’re at it. Again, not a former colonial power, very benign foreign policy traditions and very generous in its welcoming of refugees from the middle east. How did this ‘violence dynamic’ come to see terrorism and extremism on their streets?

                I seem increasingly offside with other leftists for saying this is nonsese. Ascribing this kind of childish moral simplicity to grown adults. For this ‘violence dynamic’ to be true, we’d have to believe that these people have incredibly poor critical thinking skills or moral depth. Do you believe that? That they aren’t capable of forming complex moral judgments? I think my explanation makes far more sense, because it conforms to the historical and cultural record.

                Their beliefs stem from an historic sense of mission. It is a response to religious texts, not other people’s actions. Their prophet took a small band of outcasts and brigands to war and created a vast empire. He died having impressed upon them that this empire should one day rule the world, and it was their duty to see that done. And so these extremists take that to be their duty. Their propaganda and pronouncements make this clear, so why invent theories about ‘violence dynamics’ instead of just believing what they say?

                It’s plain from their own clearly expressed views that how ‘the west’ chooses to act or has done in the past has the square root of fuck all to do with it – they have a very clearly articulated objective, and they think you and I are filth which needs to be cleansed for the world regardless of how we act towards them. We’re dhimmi, or we’re dead. Those are the only options they have for us.

                • weka

                  All that happened was that I said something very briefly. You reacted as if I said something I didn’t. I pointed that out. I haven’t read the rest of your comments because you appear to be arguing with someone who isn’t me. When you get off your high horse I’ll be happy to tell you what I think and you can argue with that if you like. For all I know, you have just as valid a view as me. But if you want to keep arguing with yourself, can you please stop using the reply button to me, thanks.

                  • I welcome anything you have to say which may make clear what I had wrong about your statement, and welcome further debate. But I find the apparent victimhood narrative at odds with the history of political Islam and the extremists who promote it. I will always strongly assert that American bombing, as counter productive as it may be towards the objective which can only be accomplished by ground forces, has not one iota to do with the motivations or objectives of Salafism and its adherents.

                    • weka

                      I think the reason those movements have gained the momentum they have is because of the sympathy they have gained from people who are sick of Western interventions in the Middle East. It’s not that US bombing civilians causes Islamic fundamentalism, it’s that it throws fuel on that fire.

                      I don’t see Islamic fundamentalists as victims, if that’s what you meant. I really think you are misconstruing my view.

                      I also think you are being too reductionist with my point. I’m not talking cause and effect in the way you appear to be. Nor fairness or validity of action. But I see Bush, Tr*mp, Bannon, all that lot, as fundamentalists too, just with bigger guns. That was my original point. Two sides at war, both doing evil things. The West likes to pretend that it’s got the moral high ground, but it really doesn’t.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      American bombing…has not one iota to do with the motivations or objectives of Salafism and its adherents.

                      Whereas captured Iraqi daesh report that their motivation was the chaos of civil war, and the GCHQ says that British jihadis are motivated by the racism they experience.

                      When people are looking for a hateful ideology to justify their vengeance fantasies, they will find one, or how else do you explain the Sensible Sentencing Trust?

                      The point being that they have to be motivated to hate to put on the ideology in the first place. Losing family members to war can do that.

                    • “I think the reason those movements have gained the momentum they have is because of the sympathy they have gained from people who are sick of Western interventions in the Middle East”

                      And that is very effective propaganda for them to utilise towards westerners, I agree – but is it really all that true? It caters to our leftist sense of justice, and adds that sense of victimhood which plays on our rightly held belief in justice for the underdog. But are they really any kind of underdog? They believe in fulfilling prophecy. And the prophecy which was bequeathed to them has nothing good in store for you or I.

                      Even the most dull witted, jingoistic American conservative who wants the rest of the world to bend the knee to the USA and marvel at its power doesn’t want to actually physically rule it – they just want that unchallenged hegemony. I don’t like it, and I look forward to a multipolar world where the USA and the EU can get in among the BRICS and play nice. And a few trillion more debt will probably see that day come. Take the ‘oil war’ thesis; I believed it once myself, and who knows it may have been the objective. Personally I think the Saudis played them for suckers. You know that US oil companies did not end up winning the contracts in Iraq?

                      In the meantime, political Islam will only ever stop for a breather, to weigh its options and assess the field of combat. Their prophecy will always be there, and will always be the lens through which they view the world. Nobody else can conduct themselves in a way which will make them any more agreeable, or any less of a target for occupation and the choice of dhimmitude or conversion.

                    • weka

                      “They believe in fulfilling prophecy”

                      You lost me at that bit. Sorry, but references to a whole geographical region of people believing the same thing strikes me as far more ideology than can be debated.

                    • ‘“They believe in fulfilling prophecy”

                      You lost me at that bit. Sorry, but references to a whole geographical region of people believing the same thing strikes me as far more ideology than can be debated.’

                      You deny that ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other extremist groups (and those motivated by their propaganda) cite prophecy to justify and inspire their activities?

      • james 11.1.2

        Im not even going to get into this with you.

        They are still pulling bodies out – Lets just agree that this is done by the lowest of people and leave politics out of it for the meantime.

        • weka 11.1.2.1

          Suicide bombings (assuming that is what it is) are political. We’re well past the point of being polite about it. If this had happened in NZ, I would agree we would need more tact. But it’s now routine and I’m sick of the whole white people getting bombed by black people needs special treatment when we don’t do that the other way round. All of it is political including your original comment.

          • Psycho Milt 11.1.2.1.1

            There are White fascists deliberately massacring the largest number of innocent Black people they can manage? I guess there was Dylann Roof, but his crime was a multi-day media festival just like the various Muslim fascist ones, so the “special treatment” isn’t obvious.

            • McFlock 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Breivik was pissed about multiculturalism, wasn’t he?

              • Yeah, but he also got massive media coverage. And it was Whitey shooting Whitey, so possibly doesn’t fit weka’s “special treatment” description.

            • weka 11.1.2.1.1.2

              I already said upthread. I think al Qaeda or whoever are evil and so is the US govt or whoever.

          • garibaldi 11.1.2.1.2

            Who is killing children? It is not just the ‘terrorists’.
            We know approximately how many people our bombs etc are killing, many of who are children.
            I doubt that ‘our side’ loses more than one in a thousand of the numbers we kill, and laugh off as collateral damage.
            We are not innocent, in fact we are depraved simply by the condoning of drone warfare, let all alone all the cluster bombs and depleted uranium etc. being used, and the ever mounting weapon sales to both sides.
            As much as it is tragic and shocking we should not be surprised at what lengths people will go to for revenge against us.

            • weka 11.1.2.1.2.1

              This.

              Thanks garibaldi.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.2.1.2.2

              …we are depraved simply by the condoning of drone warfare…

              …and if the use of drones turns out, as some say, to reduce the number of civilian casualties? Which would certainly fit with Pinker’s findings – cf: The Better Angels Of Our Nature.

              What you and Weka are saying about the dynamics of violence is absolutely right, and obviously the best outcome is that all live in peace.

              How’s that going to work with eg: Vladimir Putin or the People’s Central Committee, and their ambitions, or a criminal centre-right dictator like Pinochet? Or areas ruled by the equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Death Cult?

              The USA and their proxies are a long way off Sun Tzu’s humanitarian ethics; that doesn’t mean that democracy isn’t worth defending.

              • weka

                Quite. But itt’s not like the rest of the West is actually more moral than the US. If it were, then we’d have a UN that did the right things, including standing up to the US. As far as I can tell everyone still wants to hold onto their privilege, including economically. I’m probably basically pacifist, but also pragmatic. If we do have to kill people can we at least be honest about our reasons instead of pretending we are the Good Guys. That doesn’t mean we are devoid of goodness, on the contrary, it’s our belief that our good acts make us the good guys that is the problem.

                I suppose what I am saying is that I can’t do much about what people in the Middle East are doing. But I can challenge hypocrisy and warmongering on my own side of the world. I’m not saying we should do nothing.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  …we’d have a UN that did the right things…

                  The USA and Russia/USSR are the worst offenders by a considerable margin.

                  By contrast, Labour and the Greens have a policy of sticking to UN resolutions. So NZ’s record is patchy, because the National Party drags us down as usual. Even so, we have a better record than the US.

                  I like to think that’s in part because people do something.

                  • weka

                    National Party guaranteed to bring us down every time. And the people that vote for them. We’d do so much better if we got rid of half the country 😉

                    “I like to think that’s in part because people do something.”

                    Yes, but do you think that we are better than other places e.g. the US, or that we just have a different set of circumstances that allows us to do better? It’s hard to imagine any US president that wouldn’t bomb other countries or enable the a fucked up foreign policy.

        • mauī 11.1.2.2

          James I don’t find your type of comments compassionate, more inflammatory and reactionary. They lead to bullshit like Bush invading Afghanistan or our troops shooting up a village in the Tiguran valley.

  11. Adrian Thornton 12

    The Manchester bombing will no doubt be very bad for Labour, maybe even the end of their steady rise in the polls?

    • JC 12.1

      Reuters reports British Prime Minister Theresa May’s Conservatives will suspend campaigning for the national election on June 8.

      “A Tory (Conservative) source speaking to the Press Association (news agency) said that the Prime Minister’s general election campaign was being suspended,” Sky News said.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/331368/live-blog-19-dead-50-injured-in-manchester-explosion

      • Bill 12.1.1

        Suspended, not cancelled. Lib Dems have pulled some scheduled Malta visit too.

        Wonder if May could be stupid enough to try rolling the suspension out for a bit and claim that any campaigning by others was insensitive and what not.

        Wouldn’t be surprised if Cosby’s ‘focus grouping’ that one as we speak. 👿

        • weka 12.1.1.1

          Yes. What’s the appropriate length of time to suspend campaigning and how can we best use it to our advantage.

    • weka 12.2

      Unbelievably bad timing.

      • McFlock 12.2.1

        A bit like tha Madrid train bombings. Definitely wanting to skew the election, but who knows which way…

        • james 12.2.1.1

          “Definitely wanting to skew the election, but who knows which way…”

          I dont think we can say what they definitely wanted. Anybody who would do this in unhinged – God knows what goes thru their mind.

          • McFlock 12.2.1.1.1

            Well, if it’s an intentional attack (which seems most likely), the perpetrator(s) might well be irrational. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a plan. Two or three weeks out from an election? Chances are that’s more than just coincidence.

            • Draco T Bastard 12.2.1.1.1.1

              Well, if it’s an intentional attack (which seems most likely), the perpetrator(s) might well be irrational. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a plan.

              And the ones that carried it out aren’t necessarily the planners either.

        • Bill 12.2.1.2

          Why does it have to be anyone trying to skew anything? Why (for the time being) isn’t it being treated as an unexplained explosion that’s being investigated? Why this immediate jumping to “terrorist” conclusions, as though there are no other feasible explanations?

          Nothing ruled out and nothing ruled in would be an appropriate position for authorities to be adopting right now instead of this “terrorism until we know different” approach by police.

          • McFlock 12.2.1.2.1

            If it turns out to have been a gas main that went “bang” just as a concert was emptying out, I’ll stand corrected.

            And the reason police go “terrorism until we know different” is because gas mains and suchlike don’t have a habit of attacking several locations at the same time, and yet terrorists do – e.g. the November 2015 Paris attacks.

            • Morrissey 12.2.1.2.1.1

              And another example: the July 2014 terror unleashed on Gaza….

              http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/israel-attacks-gaza-town-war-crime-20148109292997298.html

              • McFlock

                an example of what? Your desire to rant about Israel at the most random moments?

                • Morrissey

                  So to criticize Israeli terror is to “rant”, is it? What do we call your hyperventilation about the far less lethal Manchester bombing?

                  And, just tell us will you: how is it “random” to mention Israel when terror is a topic under discussion?

                  • Stunned Mullet

                    DNFTT.

                  • McFlock

                    “Timely”.
                    “Relevant to current events”.
                    Hopefully “respectful”.
                    Maybe even, on a good day, “erudite”.

                    Thanks for asking.

                    But I would be disappointed if any of these terms applied to my comments:
                    “delusional”
                    “monomaniacal”
                    “irrelevant”
                    “idiotic”
                    “callous”

            • Bill 12.2.1.2.1.2

              There was or has been more than one explosion?

              • McFlock

                Don’t believe so in this instance.

                Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I meant that if they treated it as a gas main and it turned out to be a coordinated attack, more people would die than if they initially treat it as an attack, correctly or incorrectly as it turns out.

                • Bill

                  Not quite sure of the logic there McFlock.

                  If there’s a plan to hit (say) a football match and a concert, then a suicide bomber at a football match is probably going to detonate themselves if an evacuation order is given due to an explosion at the concert, no?

                  On the other hand, promoting panic could lead to a stampede at the football match when there was no reason to evacuate.

                  Anyway. it’s been (how many hours now?) so I think we can discount the ‘co-ordinated attack’ theory. That doesn’t mean I’m saying that the incident at the concert definitely isn’t the result of a willful act – just to be clear.

                  • weka

                    I can’t see how the police and other authorities can do anything other than treat a lethal explosion that is obviously not a gas leak etc as terrorism, for the reasons that McFlock explains. The media on the other hand…

                    • Bill

                      Obviously? Why is it obviously not a gas leak or etc?

                    • weka

                      I have no idea what happened. What I meant was that the people actually there doing the investigating, when they understand prelimarily that it’s not a gas leak etc it makes sense for them to err on the side of caution and think terrorism. Can’t think of too many other options. I guess old WW2 bomb, something like that. If you think that the police on the ground are making inaccurate assessments I’d be interested to hear that (I’m sure it’s possible).

                      I think what the media do is a different thing. Probably what the police tell the media too.

                    • weka

                      e.g. I seem to remember last time (the guy driving the car into people), there was a really stupid senior police person saying a whole lot of daft stuff in public.

                  • McFlock

                    Ok, so assuming they don’t do an OJ-style evacuation, an orderly evacuation would be much safer than a chaotic one.

                    But even without an evacuation, responding to it as a possible coordinated attack mobilises more cops to public areas, arms them, and could create different casualty handling or fire-fighter logistics. As opposed to assuming that it’s one event and more places are undefended and less emergency services are prepared.

                    So even if it wasn’t a coordinated attack this time, it was still right to respond to it as such.

                    • Bill

                      Now that I’d go with (if I’m picking you up right). Discreet preparedness.

                      So no arm wavy bullshit about terrorism setting off media and the population in general.

                    • David Mac

                      It was easy to immediately identify the probable cause of the explosion as terrorism. As is often the case, the charge was loaded with items of hardware. The floor, walls and victims around the explosion would of been peppered with nails etc.

        • weka 12.2.1.3

          Presumably having a less liberal society is an ideal.

  12. A commenter said:
    “Anybody who would do this in unhinged” – (unhinged means insane?)

    “May they rot in hell.” – May they (insane person) rot in hell.

    Hmmm… Is that what was meant?

    • Stunned Mullet 13.1

      A lot of people are justifiably upset Robert – not surprising they’d write daft things on a blog.

      • Morrissey 13.1.1

        A lot of people are justifiably upset…

        Correction: A lot of people are selectively upset. The likes of James have said little or nothing about the far more numerous daily killings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and Syria.

        • Stunned Mullet 13.1.1.1

          DNFTT

        • james 13.1.1.2

          Im sorry – I have personal ties to Manchester and it does upset me – I will never applogise for that.

          If you find that insincere because Im not upset by the daily carnage in places I have never been, know nobody, and have no linkage to – then, well, to hell with you.

          • Morrissey 13.1.1.2.1

            I have close personal ties to Manchester too. That doesn’t mean I lose all perspective though.

      • Robert Guyton 13.1.2

        I guess it’s that, “They’re killers! Kill them!” thing that gets me. Even worse,
        “They’re insane! Punish them for eternity!” that leaves me flabbergasted.

    • james 13.2

      Robert – You follow me around this blog like a smell.

      Normally I do not mind. You amuse me.

      But even for you – running around trying to ‘score points’ on a subject like this when, kids are targeted to be killed in in the name of “who knows what” is pathetic.

      I hope this kind of tragedy never impacts on your or your families life. But of it ever does I hope that pathetic little men dont go running around trying to get some personal satisfaction from it.

      • Morrissey 13.2.1

        James, what have you got to say about the killing of kids by New Zealand troops in Afghanistan? I can’t find your expressions of outrage; maybe you were busy at the time of the release of Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book?

        • james 13.2.1.1

          Go back and read my comments in there if you are so interested.

          • Robert Guyton 13.2.1.1.1

            He said he doesn’t care.

            • The decrypter 13.2.1.1.1.1

              james is hot and cold.- A swinging voter. Better on my side, than over there, we need all the votes we can get.

              • James’ll never vote Left – he’s hard-boiled ACT, in my estimation, but just in case you’re correct, I’ll give him some more rope room to express himself.

                • The decrypter

                  Robert. 16 weeks to go. Every vote counts. james = 2 votes, not just one. One for Vs one against= two.

          • Psycho Milt 13.2.1.1.2

            Go back and read my comments in there if you are so interested.

            Aw, I was hoping you’d go with “Fuck off with your false equivalence, Morrissey…”

  13. joe90 15

    This, so many times.

    Here is what the coverage will not say: targeting an Arianna Grande concert is targeting young women. This is a violent act of misogyny.— ❄️Jaclyn Friedman❄️ (@jaclynf) May 23, 2017

    • Sabine 15.1

      gotta let them know their place in life.

      yep, this one was somewhat gendered terrorism.

  14. Draco T Bastard 16

    Probing seven promising worlds with NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope

    With the discovery of seven Earth-sized planets around the TRAPPIST-1 star 40 light years away, astronomers are looking to the upcoming James Webb Space Telescope to help us find out if any of these planets could possibly support life.

    And three of them appear to be in the liquid water zone so this is a pretty good candidate to try and detect life on exo-planets.

  15. Sacha 17

    Views for and against privatising Auckland’s port: https://thespinoff.co.nz/tag/storm-in-the-port/

    Quite different tone and credibility there.

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