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Open mike 23/08/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:56 am, August 23rd, 2014 - 143 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

143 comments on “Open mike 23/08/2014 ”

  1. I see the conservative press are telling us that it’s time to stop talking about dirty politics because we should be talking about policy and nobody really cares anyway. We peons should be grateful for such sage advice.

    • yep..!..they are all lined up..and singing from the same songsheet..

      this line from armstrong was particularly gag-inducing..

      “..A clear majority of committed voters still seem to prefer Key’s and Bill English’s brand of moderate and largely painless conservatism…”

      ‘moderate and largely painless’..eh..?

      ..of course the stats/facts on pollution/poverty etc/et al make a total lie of armstrongs’ ‘moderate and largely painless’ claim/bullshit.

      ..i guess that’s one way of looking at how 30 yrs of national/labour neo-lib has driven us as far up shit creek as we currently are…

      ..to ask/advocate for even more of the same..

        • Tigger 1.1.1.1

          Democracy under attack!!! The sky is falling!!!!! Oh noes, people are seeing behind the curtain!

          • Tom Jackson 1.1.1.1.1

            They must have decided that yesterday was getting too dangerous, with Key caught out on video contradicting himself.

            I see that Duncan Garner recovered from his fit of pique at being targeted by Slater and once more has his nose firmly clamped between Key’s buttocks.

            I still think National will win the election, which will leave us in the strange position of having an openly corrupt government by public consent.

            • Olwyn 1.1.1.1.1.1

              I still think National will win the election, which will leave us in the strange position of having an openly corrupt government by public consent.

              That is the thought that horrifies me, especially since such consent would come from a little over half of the voting population. Given the deepening inequality in this country, it would effectively be a vote for the powerful to dominate the powerless, and for constitutional safeguards to be treated as PR measures, and nothing more.

              • In that case withdraw civic co-operation.

              • Kevin Welsh

                And just think how brazen people like Slater will be if that happens. They will think they are untouchable.

                • Well, they will be. By legal means, at least.

                  The nadir will be the courts declaring him a journalist after all this.

                  • yeshe

                    have you read this Tom ? fine analysis and questioning if new materials can be placed before the Court in current proceedings … by Steven Price

                    http://www.medialawjournal.co.nz/

                    • Interesting, but it’s odd that there’s little emphasis on journalistic ethics. You would think that adhering to the four basic principles, or at least attempting to, would be required for someone to be classed as a journalist.

                      Slater hasn’t minimised harm, acted independently or been accountable. Not only has he not been these things, he has actively worked against such standards – the Len Brown case alone is enough to damn him.

                      I honestly would not be surprised if none of this matters to our tedious, tory judiciary.

                • Cancerman

                  If National wins you will see them release all the information they have on the Left. Not just the bits that has been leaked so far.

                • kenny

                  Over the past week they have come to see that they are not untouchable.

                  I suspect this is the beginning of the end for this bunch of criminals (for that is what they are).

                  What price WhaleOil now? Who is going to go anywhere near him now?

              • David H

                If TricKey and co get in then the Megalomania will run rampant, and they will literally sell our country out from under us to their mates.

                • Olwyn

                  The thought is just horrifying, and our best chance is, as Chooky says, to urge all those who would vote left to vote. I don’t think that upper middle class NZ fully appreciates the need for democratic safeguards. National’s TV ad all but dog-whistles to this indifference, featuring white, triumphalist rowers proudly defeating the enemy within. Such hubris encourages the idea that safeguards are for losers, and that winners are unnecessarily hampered by them. We desperately need a strong showing from the left in this election, for democracy’s sake.

            • Chooky 1.1.1.1.1.2

              @ Tom Jackson(1.1.1.1.1) ….Disagree!…It was very close last time when many Labour people did not vote . ( people were still angry with Phil Goff being leader and leading the charge against asset sales when he once supported them under Labour/Roger Douglas…it was too much to swallow)

              This time people will vote! Cunliffe is a good and compassionate leader for Labour. He is well able to stand up against Key!

              ( There are many ‘undecided’ who do not want to declare to the pollsters…I myself refuse to talk to pollsters …there are others who lie…and others who will not disclose ( the ‘undecideds’)…after all we live in a surveillance society under John Key’s NACT…people are paranoid)

              Bugger the POLLSTERS! ( they are too often wrong as Jim Bolger found out!)

              We have to FOCUS on winning!!!… and calling the media to ACCOUNT

              ……we want the TRUTH! This election must be about HONESTY and NOT SPIN!….

              ….we must FIGHT for this Labour /Left coalition WIN!.

              • The Al1en

                “we must FIGHT for this Labour /Left coalition WIN!.”

                Yes Chooky, not fight and smear against it like some are intent on doing until polling day. +1.5

        • phillip ure 1.1.1.2

          roughan is particularly happy/clappy about the outcomes from that national/labour rightwing/neo-lib/fuck-the-poor! ‘consensus’ of the last 30 yrs..

          ..culminating in the current asset-stripping bunch of bastards..

          “..New Zealand has enjoyed a healthy economic consensus for 30 years..”

          ..’healthy’ for roughan and his ilk…

          ..’sick’ for so many others/the environment..

          • Tom Jackson 1.1.1.2.1

            The guy is, like most of these right wing morons, an economic illiterate. Actual economics is much more reasonable and cautious than these clowns think.

          • Paul 1.1.1.2.2

            Remember Roughan was such a poor journalist that his biography of Key mentioned nothing at all about the links with Slater.

          • The Al1en 1.1.1.2.3

            “that national/labour rightwing/neo-lib/fuck-the-poor! ‘consensus’”

            “yrs of national/labour neo-lib”

            What a shame you didn’t have the testicles to use that slogan/anti labour smear and front it to DC when he was on here answering questions.
            Shame you bottled it and went, dear mr Cunliffe instead.

            You’re worse than the right wing nuggets that come on here. Shame on you.

            • Chooky 1.1.1.2.3.1

              +100…have to agree The Allen

              • The Al1en

                On the christmas card list you are 😉

                • Chooky

                  lol…It will be a MERRY CHRISTMAS!….. under a Cunliffe Labour/ Left coalition !

                  Merry Christmas in advance!

              • factcheck 4 u..chooky..

                ..when cunnliffe appeared on here it was made clear to all by the moderator..that such-worded questions would not pass muster..

                ..and as it was..a politely-worded question on poverty…was not answered by cunnliffe..

                ..tho’ he answered the four before it..and the one following..

                ..so..really..you and that idiot can just take yr fake-argument..

                ..and blow it out yr butts…eh..?

                ..every neo-lib-consensus word i said is true/accurate/historical-fact…

                ..and that you and the idiot are in agreement..going on both yr past analytical-records here..

                ..signifies very little..eh..?

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.3

          Oh, you should try Garner’s BS:

          That won’t be easy. Key is punching at shadows – he can’t see his enemy and he doesn’t know what might come next.

          But he has to get on with it. Key’s line this week that the ‘‘cowardly hacker has stolen your election’’ is a good start, but National needs much more than that. Key has looked unsure on television all week – he’s looked unconvincing. The nice guy has gone.

          So, for Key, it all starts tomorrow with the official National campaign launch. He needs a big-bang policy to get people talking.

          These National fanbois in the MSM really seem to have NFI just how much damage that National have done to our democracy and need to be removed to prevent further damage. To them it’s all about winning – no matter the cost to our society.

          • Paul 1.1.1.3.1

            You’ve got to wonder if Slater and his crew have stuff on some journalists.
            Or is it simply that the media is owned by large foreign corporates?

            • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.3.1.1

              Both?

              • Once Was Tim

                Both! Considering that journalists have dirt on each other and play all that stupid ‘what plays in Vegas, stays in Vegas’ game. I’d be bloody surprised if he didn’t.

          • David H 1.1.1.3.2

            “So, for Key, it all starts tomorrow with the official National campaign launch. He needs a big-bang policy to get people talking.”

            His and Collins resignations Now that would get the country talking. Asking who of the toxic’s that are left would be the next ‘Dear Leader’?

            • yeshe 1.1.1.3.2.1

              the horror sub-plot running, according to Gower on The Nation this morning, is the emergence of Paula Bennett as next leader …

              • Well, she does come across now as one of the less pugnacious and authoritarian National MPs, even if that’s not saying much.

              • Hami Shearlie

                I was waiting for everyone to GUFFAW – and they DIDN’T – This world is becoming just too strange to live in!!!

          • Poission 1.1.1.3.3

            Key has looked unsure on television all week – he’s looked unconvincing. The nice guy has gone.

            The day of the Jekyll

    • Awww 1.3

      Herald reveals WO commentor.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&obj
      ectid=11313039

      • Colonial Viper 1.3.1

        And in that same article Slater threatens the reporter, David Fisher:

        “Slater did not return calls. He did send an email saying: “Time for all your emails to come out Fish.”

        Looks like dickheads like Slater are unable to learn.

        • yeshe 1.3.1.1

          Fisher seemed almost self-muzzled on The Nation this morning, as a commentator. Either he is protecting what HOS will publish tomorrow from the person with the docs who is not whaledump, or he is scared. Was very odd to me.

  2. disturbed 2

    Steven Joyce is continuing has black op’s dirty politics regimen even though his leader has said the opposition can’t win on policy and that’s why they continue the dirty political attacks on John Key, Ha Ha,

    On Whaleoil 20th the attack from Joyce was made against Labour candidate and grandson of Sir Walter Nash, the highly successful Stuart Nash.

    On Whaleoil Cameron Slater openly rejects any issue of dirt is being placed against Stuart Nash, with a statement ” he is a good guy” which shows that Joyce is behind much of this dirty Politics campaign all along.

    National contuse their dirty politics and says they are not! Lies, Lies, Lies.

    by Cameron Slater on August 20, 2014 at 9:30am

    Steven Joyce has made allegations that Whaleoil is going to release information about Stuart Nash. Joyce says it is to balance things up. This should be called out for what it is.

    It is an out and out lie.

    Steven Joyce is a disgrace for suggesting this because he has lied to protect his own interests.

    Nash wrote two articles for the Truth and I talk to him occasionally like I do with many on the left. I know nothing at all about Stuart Nash doing anything other than he is a bloody good politician who scares National. Nash is winning a National seat because he is a far better politician that Steven Joyce ever will be, and Joyce is having a sook because he will never be as popular as Nash.

    Steven Joyce should be far more worried about people like Bill English trying to claim the moral high ground when everyone knows what lengths he, Boag and McCully have gone to in political battles over the years. That coming out would be truly damaging.

    Given the last time I spoke to Steven Joyce was several years ago when I sledged him out about Twitter at a National party conference in Auckland it is highly unlikely he’d know what I was up to.

    Doodlehead
    was that on ZB with Hosking ? I thought he said Whaleblog(or whatever it’s called) was going to release it
    Ed for clarity

    Soleman
    That was my understanding as well

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/ Keeping Stock
    Yep; that was what was said. Whaledump would be releasing something about Nash to show how balanced the hackers are; as if…

    Mark
    Ouch!

    Rem
    Whaledump I heard

    kiwibattler
    Yes – I think Cam has jumped the gun on this (unless someone can find a link showing Joyce mentioning it is whaleoil).

    Ross15
    You are both right. I heard the interview and they were talking about whaledump and Joyce said he expected there to be continued releases up until the election. He said he’d heard today there would be a “balance up” with a release concerning Stuart Nash.
    I think Cam needs to do a retraction on what he has said above about Joyce.

    izhoui
    Nah. Game playing.

    Fat Sally
    Nash is a good bloke. He will win Napier comfortably. Well ahead in the polls.

    http://www.shipmodels.co.nz/ Graeme
    I thought he said Whaledump. Now we are all confused!

    THE APE
    thats what i thought to – well according to ZB anyway

    Goldie
    But I thought that Cam Slater was a puppet of the evil Tories? And according to Nicky Hagar, Cam Slater is a tool of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy?
    And here he is publicly bagging Steven Joyce…

    tjb
    And so it goes on, every day until Sept 19 we are going to have this junk news drip fed

    so_ruggef
    Jumped the gun Cam, zb reporting whale dump to release info. But when you say you have nothing on Nash didnt you used to call him a serial rooter back in the day?

    Sir Brucey
    Isnt Joyce also one of those scum list MPs? Why doesnt he test his popularity and support in an electorate battle !!!

    LesleyNZ
    Not in my book. Steven Joyce and Bill English are OK with me.

    Snoop
    Easy to just pull this post … 🙂
    Stuff like this makes me hate Dot.Com even more …
    Becos his “WhaleDump-Dump” is now getting confused with the real Whale …

    Bruce from taihape
    Get your facts right Slater. Paranoia setting in?

    Coffee Connoisseur
    “Get your facts right Slater. Paranoia setting in?”

    • you have to remember that along with the ‘dirty politics’ shitstorm going on..

      ..national is also wracked by internicene-warfare..

      ..over the current/future control of the party..

      ..with joyce leading one faction..and collins the other..

      ..(and with slater/lusk etc firmly in the collins camp..)

      ..and believe it or not..joyce is deemed to be ‘the moderate’ of the two..

      ..i dunno about that claim..to me the shadings seem remarkably similar..

      ..it always pays to keep this in mind when evaluating any statements from one faction about the other..(and any slater musings..)

      ..that there is all this really really ‘dirty politics’ on an ongoing basis..within national..

      ..and that any statement may well be all about that..more than anything else..

      ..’game of thrones’..indeed..!

      ..are we nearing the ‘thrones’ bloodbath-scene within national..?

      • Bearded Git 2.1.1

        Joyce sees the word profit, and nothing else.

      • TE 2.1.2

        The only relevant Slater is KELLY surfing in Tahiti https://www.facebook.com/KellySlater

        Collins backside is all burnt and Joyce cannot contain his glee.
        Key looks really ill, I bet he can’t wait till he and Bronie are lying back sipping pina colada in Hawaii and dirty politics is just a memory.
        We will remember these liars and soothsayers at voting time

    • karol 2.2

      Your comment is quite hard to follow, disturbed. You don’t clearly differentiate between quotes from others and your comments.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.3

      Please read this.

  3. swordfish 3

    From Whaledump

    Cameron Slater (24/2/2011)

    [On National Party delegates]

    “dodgy, lying cheating cunts…firstly at the branch level, secondly at the region and thirdly with Goodfellow”

    Sounds like a fair appraisal to me.

  4. Awww 4

    Stephen Price (Media Law Journal) has some great commentary around Dirty Politics. They are a bit long but it would be great to see them broken into parts and made feature posts here on TS.

    http://www.medialawjournal.co.nz/

  5. Paul 5

    Further unministerial behaviour by Collins.

    ‘Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater got a response to an Official Information Act request from Justice Minister Judith Collins in just 37 minutes.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11313041

    • Tangled_up 5.1

      It’s ok. It wasn’t her, it was her office. /sarc

    • Now look here, the only reasons that justify baying for a politician’s resignation is if they don’t know their Shakespeare, or they are accused of buying a bottle of wine that they didn’t actually buy, or they are named “David Cunliffe”.

      Pull yourself together.

    • disturbed 5.3

      Paul,

      Our NGO placed our IOA at the office of the Prime Minister two days ago for a confirmation list of all the last four years of emails we sent the Prime Minister( all 54) of them. (No response for replies and assistance were ever received from the P.M.)

      Of course we don’t expect our IOA to be received back before a week or two perhaps, (ha ha)

      Thinking back maybe we should also send the request also now to Judith Collins to see if we get them quicker eh?

      What do you reckon?

  6. karol 6

    And a Brownlee staffer named as having commented on WO blog under a pseudonym:

    The press secretary of Cabinet minister Gerry Brownlee has admitted posting anonymously to the Whale Oil blog as the impact of Dirty Politics continues to hit the election campaign.

    Nick Bryant was named in Dirty Politics as the person who had used the pseudonym “Former Hack” to post anonymous comments encouraging blogger Cameron Slater’s campaign against a public servant which resulted in death threats.

    The Herald was able to confirm the use of Mr Bryant’s ministerial computer through details obtained from an individual other than the hacker who also accessed information from Whale Oil during the Denial of Service attack.
    […]
    Mr Hager’s book links Mr Bryant to another anonymous name – but the Herald has found the email account linked to messages from the person is actually registered in the name of yet another ministerial staff member.

    • mickysavage 6.1

      Shesh they were all at it. I bet there are a whole lot of Nat staffers feeling very nervous right now …

      • Kevin Welsh 6.1.1

        Look at the encouragement coming from the top.

      • Te Reo Putake 6.1.2

        This might be why we haven’t much from the usual suspects in recent days. Crawled back under their rocks till the storm passes?

      • Ad 6.1.3

        Mickey there needs to be a good conversation with LPrent about protocols for engaging with a Labour-Green government.

        The schadenfreude and hypocrisy-charges will be significant for upholding the reputation of The Standard.

      • David H 6.1.4

        “Shesh they were all at it. I bet there are a whole lot of Nat staffers feeling very nervous right now”

        And if they all get the Boot Paula will be pissed, as it will screwup her ‘Unemployment is dropping” meme.

  7. Bearded Git 7

    I think Armstrong in the Herald today is right:

    “…Nicky Wagner, who was already facing a real struggle holding her Christchurch Central seat for National. She may as well not even bother campaigning now that citizens of the earthquake-stricken city know they rate as “scum” in the mind of Slater. She will not be the only one cursing Slater. Christchurch was National’s success story in 2011. National’s strong party vote in the city was a tribute to John Key’s unique ability to draw votes from across the political spectrum.

    But Christchurch is gone. It would be rich irony if the city became National’s graveyard in 2014.”

    It’s here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11313037

    Christchurch has gone, and so has Dunedin after Cunliffe’s fine policy announcements yesterday, raptuously received on yesterday’s front page of the ODT

    • Pasupial 7.1

      BG

      There were two articles about the Labour policies for Dunedin in the ODT yesterday, the frontpage was indeed very enthusiastic, while the “election 2014” one consisted mainly of Woodhouse/ Joyce quotes.

      http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/313305/labour-promises-reopen-hillside

      Woodhouse, being the Private Health Industry’s representative in Parliament, was particularly dismissive of the plan to upgrade Dunedin Hospital:

      Dunedin list MP and former chief executive of Dunedin’s Mercy Hospital Michael Woodhouse, was also scathing of Labour’s promise to fast-track the Dunedin Hospital rebuild, calling it ”irresponsible”… ”If there was any neglect it was by the [last] Labour government[“]… ”I’ve run hospitals. I know how hard it is to master-plan for a new facility and I don’t believe it’s appropriate for anyone … to make bold but irresponsible claims about timing.”

      http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/313352/policies-damaging-joyce-says

    • Kevin Welsh 7.2

      Napier is also gone for National and word on the street is Foss is behind in Tukituki

    • veutoviper 8.1

      Well said, Jessica.

      I have not yet read Hager’s book, but have read the Whaledump posts to date, and your blog sums up my feelings far better than I could have.

      I recommend others read your blog post.

      PS – I also skimmed your other recent on your blog, and will be back to read them more thoroughly.

    • veutoviper 8.2

      Oops, edited and ended up with two versions.

      Edit was to PS to read
      PS – I also skimmed your other recent posts on your blog, and will be back to read them more thoroughly.

    • Tigger 8.3

      Nice post, Jessica. Totally agree.

  8. disturbed 9

    Yep Micky

    The staffer’s must have been coached by someone though.

    Maybe Ede, & Lusk?

    Maybe some others too, inside MSM.

    Who were actually steering the dirty politics black op’s and spin doctoring?

    Joyce at the helm like Key no doubt, but cleverly keeping themselves detached as to not be connected, but all coming out now.

    They always looked so smug we instinctively knew they were up to something but had no proof.

    Thank you Nicky Hager Nat’s on longer have the protective secrecy any more, while they are now flying blind into a Kim.com storm cloud, with an on going investigation up their arse opps!

    • Rich 9.1

      I’m just going to make an association. If any of you are familiar with the Jeff Gannon stuff from GWBs days you will recognise the tactics and strategy here. This is a corporate designed strategy to defeat democracy.

    • dv 10.1

      That is a very disturbing read.

    • UglyTruth 10.2

      Excellent article, thank you.

    • Pasupial 10.3

      That is too much grist for my mind mill – I can quite feel my cogs and spindles seizing up as I read. It would take one more familiar with international moneylaundering techniques than myself, to follow all the slippery twists and turns. Difficult to argue with the conclusion though:

      Anyhow, there must, of course, be some reasonably innocent explanation for these very unfortunate recurring Odgers associations with major international white collar crime, other than that Odgers is a crook. Coming up with something else that’s plausible stumps me, I must admit. For instance, Odgers doesn’t appear to be an idiot; not, at any rate, in the formal sense of having a very low IQ. Whatever the explanation is, it will have to be something more complicated than that.

      So, worst case: Odgers is a crook, directly involved in Russian mafia moneylaundering, a $1Billion US Ponzi scheme, and the largest pension fraud in Australian history. If that’s how it is, then Key, via Whale Oil, looks a little too close to her.

      Best case: Odgers is a monumentally oblivious idiot, with an astonishing knack for working with, or for, large-scale fraudsters, again and again.

  9. Sanctuary 11

    Hmmm, Slater seems to have decided to declare war on the media and is trying to blackmail, browbeat and bully them with sinister threats of blackmail.

    What an idiot. Making personal enemies with people who can ask Key questions about Slater from here until September 20th is really, really dumb. Key must now be be furious at how close he personally and his party generally has allowed itself to come to Slater, who is out of control. Slater seems to think he represents some kind of new order in the media, and he and his Brownshirts can use the tactics of street thugs to subvert and supplant the traditional media. Paul Buchanan is right – Slater and his band of thugs represent a existential threat to democracy. Slater and his thugs don’t want contingent consent in a democratic structure – they want to humiliate, delegitimise and smash all opposition to their point of view. Simply, he has to be stopped at all costs.

    There is also now a clear schism within the media itself. The hard right broadcasters like Plunkett, Hoskings, Henry etc etc have clearly cast in their lot with Slater and abandoned any pretense of being journalists. They should be sen for what they are – hard-right propagandists who despise democracy and would welcome a one party state of the right..

    • Ant 11.1

      Yeah #DirtyPolitics has literally driven some of these guys over the edge, Plunkett trying to incoherently accuse Paddy Gower of something (no-one has really figured it out yet…) over the phone was just cringe-worthy.

  10. kenny 12

    Anybody who has read Dirty Politics knows why John Key will not sack Judith Collins.

    She knows where the bodies are buried.

    Through her close friend Cameron Slater, she knows exactly how much John Key is involved in dirty politics.

    If she goes, he goes.

    Both of them are a spent force now; there is no coming back from this one.

    • Once Was Tim 12.1

      …. and if things go wrong at this election, he’s gone anyway – or even if things are so tight we have a Natzi government unable to do anything because the margins are so thin. (I actually didn;t think this gubbamint was going to last this long – it’s been sailing along with Blind Faith)

      Collins is inherently retributive – a nouveau riche, self-entitled, very ugly, holier-than-thou person. She won’t be able to resist. I heard this morning (The Nation I think – with the sage Peddy Gear) that the beneficiary of all this will be Pulla Bent. Let’s hope so, because a competent Cunliffe or even a jack-Russell should be able to put that beast down without too much trouble.

  11. Penny Bright 13

    Check THIS out!

    ‘Naked Capitalism’ blog outs Cathy Odgers ‘Cactus Cate’.

    ‘Chop chop Cathy ……

    Penny Bright

  12. Reddelusion 14

    I am new to this site, but an observation, there is a propensity for many of the contributors to use extreme hyperbole and blame the government, the MSM or any body else for everything There is also a gross use of the “collective we”. Not everybody is unhappy, a great majority of kiwis left or right are just getting on with life, celebrating their good fortune ( not necessarily material) and facing up to the challenges that come their way . Here however many, (not all ) seem to use this site as a medium for their unchallengeable ideology, spew hate or seek to externalise their own failures or jealousy and further seek comfort in this by rationalising that every one else thinks the same and if not god help them. This is not all bad though,such sites be it whaleoiil, the standard, daily blog are entertaining while also acting as a pressure valve for the more extremes in our society, as does democracy I guess, so keep on keeping on

    • Ad 14.1

      Dear Red Delusion,

      If you are an honest and mildly intelligent discussant, you will learn to be discerning in who you engage with, who are worth the time. So focus your judgement.

      If you had read the site policy, you will note that people who make sweeping statements about this site tend to get scorched out. Moderation here isn’t like Kiwiblog or Whaleoil as you will soon discover.

      You will also get to recognize that the commenters are diverse, at least as diverse as those within Labour, and more. Don’t presume any specific politic. Learn the spectrum of those you want to deal with.

      And finally, no one is going to waste time with the drivel you ended with. Stand up, sharpen up, package your facts, and bring your best stuff every day. This is a sport to be played well.

      Ad

    • swordfish 14.2

      If you want to play the concern tr*ll – or whatever the neutral-observer-with-objective-critique equivalent is – , then it might have been an idea to employ a different pseudonym. Rather gives the game away.

  13. adam 15

    Sorry about being reactive but, John Keys office said this today.

    Fewer Kiwis leaving for Australia, more coming home.

    In the year to July, fewer people left for Australia than any time since 1995 – and more Kiwis are voting with their feet and coming home.

    So when the Australian economy and political society turns to shit, National will take credit for it. Wow, what will this guy take credit for next? Higher temperatures mean NZ can grow more tropical crops – A national party initiative?

    • Draco T Bastard 15.1

      So when the Australian economy and political society turns to shit, National will take credit for it.

      National will take credit for anything if they think that they can make them look good. Anything else they’ll blame on Labour.

  14. one of gowers’ worst efforts..to date..(nation interview of robertson/norman..)

    ..all about playing wedge-politics..

    ..and all about trying to show what a clever dick he is..

    ..a fail..on all levels..

  15. tricledrown 17

    Key and Cronies should be in the Dock!
    Collins Slater Lusk Ede Joyce Odgers no doubt others!

  16. Rich 18

    Hawaii. How much time does Key spend there each year and how much time does he spend in NZ. Anybody know?

    • aerobubble 18.1

      He has to spend time aboard, on holiday, else how would his Office get anything done.

      • Rich 18.1.1

        True enough.

        And the media has a go at Cunliffe for taking 3 days off, where a quick look at Key’s schedule over the past 12 months would have probably shown 3 months off.

  17. Reddelusion 19

    Dear Ad

    Fair points, I would argue site is left however agree it is not purely labour

    I also hear your point on the sport aspect of site, that’s why site is so entertaining

    Would argue however that views are well argued, little synthesis goes on, even the more scholarly of contributors simply start with a conclusion, then reference articles that support their line of thought or ideology

    No different on the right, my point is poles would indicate many people don’t think this way, hence views on these type of sites tend to be more extreme and satisfy the needs of contributors, provide entertainment but little else

    Dont get worked up over pseudronym, could easily be blue delusion

    • yeshe 19.1

      why have your brought Poland into your argument ?

      • Rich 19.1.1

        Easy mistake for a person who does not have English as their first language, yeshe. ;~)

        • yeshe 19.1.1.1

          thought maybe it was a right wing thing I didn’t understand … 🙂

        • greywarbler 19.1.1.2

          @Rich 12.36
          The Delusion comment talks about finding entertainment on these sites and talks about poles. I’m so shallow I immediately thought of pole dancing. 😉 I am so glad this person dropped in to put us right in our place.

          By the way I like your face construction, I am going to add it to my group of home-made ones. :>)

  18. Colonial Viper 20

    Labour to “axe secondary tax”

    Well done!!!

    • Rodel 20.1

      Yes Big relief to casual workers with multijobs.
      Casualisation of the workforce is big with National’s unemployment figures.
      During Labour’s government NZ had the lowest rate of unemployment in the OECD, lower even than South Korea.
      What is it now under English & co.?

    • RedBaronCV 20.2

      They’ll need to careful otherwise a lot of people will arrange a primary job that pays sod all and a very lucrative untaxed secondary job. Either that or they are raising unrealistic expectations for some.

    • Murray Olsen 20.3

      Agreed. Axing secondary tax is the first Labour policy I really like. The way it works is a really good initiative to not try different things. They should look at the obscene Key tax on paperboys (paperkids?) as well.

  19. greywarbler 21

    I heard this quote on This Way Up, obviously Churchill, and thought that its warning sounded very appropriate for now. I have taken out some wording to make it more generally applicable. It was given I think on 18 June 1940.

    But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science.
    Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves, that if the [human world and its environment] last for a [further] thousand years, [all people] will still say, This was their finest hour.

    The speech was delivered to the Commons at 3:49 pm,[6] and lasted 36 minutes. Churchill – as was his habit – made revisions to his 23-page typescript right up to and during the speech. The final passage of his typescript was laid out in blank verse format, which Churchill scholars consider reflective of the influence of Old Testament psalms on his oratory style.

    A long speech, so people with a short attention span would have difficulty grasping the precepts. Perhaps we with our short span might have difficulty meeting the challenges Britain did, the first being finding the time and concentration to think about it all.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_was_their_finest_hour
    edited

  20. crocodill 22

    Those Lusk – Slater emails are a little bit interesting – reveals the minds of the men. Parts are almost homo-erotic in their shared effusive enjoyment of guns and money, pushing one or the other on the other. Not that homo’s shouldn’t be homos or effusive, it’s the kind of faux developmental homo you might find in male relationships of an adolescent kind. Kids with guns, might be accurate. I gotta be honest, I don’t know any males like those two. Is it common for guys of that age to be talking like that to each other, and if it isn’t, is it just the political industry that attracts that type? I don’t suppose anyone will confirm. It’d be like asking how often one masturbates. I just though I’d ask in case anyone asks me to a political rally and when politely refusing I can say I have to stay home and wash my hair and not seem odd to them.

    Also the glaringly flippin obvious:

    Covert operations 101 rule 1#
    When discussing evil plans, don’t put it in writing and definitely don’t use electronic medium to send messages. If you can’t manage that, don’t reply to replies of email discussion, start new mail for each reply, so fragmenting the paper trail.

    Even John Key knows that rule. To get that rule wrong shows that a person would have to be under the spell of their own hype and when that happens it doesn’t even matter if you spell it out, they can’t comprehend it.

    • Murray Olsen 22.1

      I am absolutely amazed at their incompetence. They left a trail a dog with a skunk sitting on its nose could follow. I can’t believe their arrogance. They are nasty, incompetent, well resourced amateurs. This is what will save us from them in the end.

  21. Scott1 23

    A key factor that causes disadvantage to the opposition parties is that the economy is “good” in terms of the numbers we hear in the media.

    So why is it good? Because Christchurch had an earth quake and so National got to do the rather dodgy accounting of writing off some assets, then borrowing some money, and building them back again – then taxing the increased activity and then calling the result a GDP increase and a surplus.

    As long as National keeps control of that narrative it is still in a strong position.
    If one of the other parties was to really take them to task on it (exactly how that would be done would depend on the party) things could start to look different.

    I have heard little bits of this sort of argument (around debt going up) but they don’t seem to be framed quite right.

    The good news is I think that the guys actually made this point in the whaledump, so one could highlight that.

  22. Kiwiri 24

    Quick question and please excuse me for yet to come up-to-date:

    Are the Leaders’ Debates taking place and, if so, when?

    If Prime Minister John Key doesn’t want to turn up, please organise for an article to be sent from the Prime Minister’s Office so that David Cunliffe can debate with the said item.

  23. ianmac 25

    Remember that the huge gap in the funding of EQC happened because the Government with held the money.
    Result 1:EQC have had to drastically reduce settlement of claims.
    Result 2: Government can hide the debt so that there appears to be a surplus to crow about. Bill gets away with the fraud. MSM does not touch the issue.

  24. freedom 26

    Not sure Key can keep saying no-one is interested, Blighty seems to be.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/-sp-new-zealand-election-john-key-alleged-dirty-politics

  25. Morrissey 27

    Stephen Franks continues to run amok on The Panel
    
Radio NZ National, Friday 22 August 2014

    Jim Mora, Stephen Franks, Bernard Hickey, Julie Moffett

    Long-time sufferers of the light, not so bright, chat show The Panel will be all too aware of its grim line-up of commentators from the far right. It’s a long list, and extremely depressing to anyone who cares about the quality of our public broadcasting. Those commentators include: Nevil “Breivik” Gibson, Jordan Williams, Chris Wikaira, Barry Corbett, Michael Bassett, Neil Miller, John Bishop, Jock Anderson, John Barnett, and the superficially jolly but deeply nasty Whale Oil lackey David Farrar. They rarely contribute anything insightful or witty; the exceptions are John Bishop, who can string together an intelligent argument occasionally, and Jock Anderson, who has a disarming bonhomie and sharp sense of humor. The rest of them, though, make for a grim and often gruesome listening experience. Jordan Williams is allowed free rein to push his cynical “Taxpayers Union” stunts whenever he is on, and—this is still possibly the single most absurd moment in the history of the program—Michael Bassett croaked with Stygian malice that Nicky Hager was a Holocaust-denier, with not a word of demur uttered by host Jim Mora, producer Susan Baldacci or anyone else in the studio.

    Today, once again, another on this seemingly endless roster of extreme right wing ideologues was allowed the run of the Radio NZ studios for an hour or more. Yes, the great legal scholar and moral philosopher and Sensible Sentencing Trust supporter Stephen Franks was on again, and he did not disappoint. Indeed, he delivered several of his trademark deranged, wandery lectures and topped it off with a blackly humorous paean to the destruction Vietnam—one of the most hilarious, monstrously hypocritical moral homilies I have ever heard, anywhere, and made all the more hilarious by his contention that the Vietnamese think the Americans weren’t hard enough on them.

    Only at the end of the program did anyone—Bernard Hickey, actually—do anything to counter the phenomenal amount of bilge Franks was spouting.

    Franks’s dismal performance began during the pre-show, when host Jim Mora read a letter from a listener expressing concern about how the loss of confidence and trust in politicians is leading to a loss of trust in public institutions in general….

    JIM MORA: Do you think honestly—I know this is a Panelly type situation and we’re getting serious before 4 o’clock—but do you think there is something in this?
    BERNARD HICKEY: I’m a little bit skeptical. People say they don’t respect politicians, but in my experience they do respect them whenever they meet them face to face.
    STEPHEN FRANKS: This is the result of a long stream of very cynical books. It’s very rare to see a politician portrayed as noble. This cynicism seeps into public attitudes. I think most politicians have good motives and there is very little corruption in New Zealand. ….[He continues pretentiously and inanely for a while longer. For a short time after he is finished, there is an uneasy silence….]

    Both Jim Mora and Bernard Hickey were too polite to give voice to what must have immediately occurred to them, i.e., that most non-National Party politicians do indeed have good motives and are not corrupt—with the glaring exception of David (“Grave Robber”) Garrett, Rodney (“The Perk-Taker”) Hide and John (“I donnnnnn’t remember”) Banks, i.e., politicians who made up the grotesque ACT party shambles that Franks represented in parliament.

    But Mora and Hickey said nothing, and Franks got away with another few minutes of pompous drivel, unchallenged.

    After the 4 o’clock news, on The Panel proper, Mora apologetically announced that he was going to talk about Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics again. Mora’s attitude was interesting; I have no doubt that Franks had said something unpleasant and admonitory to him off air about that, which led to Mora’s clear nervousness in broaching the subject….

    JIM MORA: Stephen, um, to what extent do you think the landscape is changing?
    STEPHEN FRANKS: I have genuinely tried to avoid reading it. I defended the News of the World phone hacks, but there’s a good reason why much of this is illegal, and I want to see the law enforced…. [He continues on with a confused, rambling Jamie Whyte-style free-ranging rumination.]

    In his “Soapbox” segment, Franks spoke about some university students he recently met, and expressed his grave concern about their failure to see the merits of America’s destruction of Vietnam. (No, you did not read that wrongly; Franks really IS that deranged)…..

    STEPHEN FRANKS: I’d rather hoped that they might rebel against the ghastly consensus that war can only be spoken about in hushed tones as if it’s all terribly shameful, and there’s a defeatism and a pacifism in our intelligentsia that means our commemorations usually talk about war as failure on all sides. …[Here he pauses to underline that he is thinking seriously]…But, uh, I think we’re in a world where we might need some of the martial values. We look at a man who was beheaded by a culture that sees sacrifice of innocence as just a routine tactic. Ahhhhmmm, if you were a Kurd, or a Yaziri, or a Christian in Iran, or a North Korean, or in the last century a Czech or a Pole or an Ethiopian or anyone who’s been invaded and dominated, ahhhhmmm, you might think that you need to celebrate courage and self-sacrifice and the virtues, ahhhhhmmmm….

    BERNARD HICKEY: But there’s a cynicism about that now because the initial response was to jump in in a martial way. It seemed to make it a lot worse.

    STEPHEN FRANKS: [irate tone] Well, I don’t think that that’s established at all. I mean, one of the things that was interesting in this debate was that the young people all universally condemned the Vietnam War, but I doubt that ANY of them have talked to any of the Vietnamese refugees who have settled here, in fact it sticks in my head that, at the height of the Vietnam War there were 400,000 or 350,000 refugees overseas out of Vietnam, two years later there were FOUR MILLION that had fled, a million probably or no one knows how many PERISHED, and if you spend a bit of time in Vietnam and probe enough because they don’t want to talk about the war, you’ll find plenty of people who will say the only thing wrong about the Vietnam War was that the wrong side was allowed to win. So you know, I think there’s a cultural overlay in New Zealand that just doesn’t WANT to examine the possibility that we’ve had a hundred years reaction to a ghastly First World War like All Quiet on the Western Front, and we don’t celebrate the virtues of Just War.

    MORA: Putting the Vietnam War aside, because, well, we probably don’t have time to talk about it although you’ve raised an interesting point, ahhh, doesn’t increased attendances in recent years at Anzac Day services suggest that we still do appreciate valor, actually?

    STEPHEN FRANKS: Uh, I think it does. I think ordinary people don’t have that kind of syrupy, maudlin regret. I think they ARE wanting to honor some the things that humans have traditionally honored, like courage and self-sacrifice.

    MORA: All right. Stephen Franks, thank you. Bernard Hickey on the Panel, a quarter to five. Miley Cyrus’s forthcoming show in Auckland: pornography and the promotion of substance abuse dressed up as pop music, says Family First. We’ll ask Dita Di Boni about that, but first of all, your opinions please. Does it bother you, the subject matter?

    STEPHEN FRANKS: It seems tawdry to me and I applaud Bob McCroskery for having the courage to be unfashionable and say parents ought to be a bit disgusted.

    BERNARD HICKEY: I’m deeply uncomfortable with it. It just seems like something from another planet.

    MORA: More and more youngsters don’t have the moral framework to condemn it, they don’t have the religion which used to condemn it. So is this a kind of moral degradation or not?

    (Jim Mora, remember, is a man who chuckles at the plight of political dissidents.)

    DITA DI BONI: Well, a lot of people sheet it home to Madonna. But there’s really no comparison. It’s a completely different ball game. She wasn’t marketed to children and she expressed female sexuality to women, which Miley Cyrus says she is doing, but that’s nonsense. She is a product of a marketing system, of an industry, whereas Madonna really tried to make her own way but, I don’t know about you guys, but every straight man I’ve ever talked to does not find Madonna sexy. She’s scary, because it’s a different idea of sexuality. Miley Cyrus is very cynically marketed to very young girls, it’s a nonsense message….

    STEPHEN FRANKS: [speaking very quietly, to convey deep moral seriousness] It’s a very strange thing to have reached this stage. It was so easy to scoff at the slippery slope and ummmm, and the anti-Patricia Bartlett position was just universal.

    DITA DI BONI: Yes.

    STEPHEN FRANKS: But it IS very difficult for a society to cope with this kind of attack on values. Of course this is exactly the dilemma that isn’t a dilemma for Islamic countries…..[continues pompously for another minute or so]

    Just before the end of the program, Jim Mora brought up the subject of Labour’s plan to revive the Dunedin Railway Workshops. The Ayn Rand worshipper’s response was one of instant, dogmatic dismissal: Government has no business investing in any industry, he growled. Bernard Hickey, for once, stirred himself to respond to Franks’s nonsense instead of just ignoring him and hoping he’d stop….

    BERNARD HICKEY: Yet we’ve got $400 million to spend on irrigation problems.
    STEPHEN FRANKS: [snorting] Railway is a sunset industry.
    BERNARD HICKEY: Oooooh, I’m not so sure about that….

    Sadly, the music swelled up and saved Franks from an on-air keelhauling. Maybe next time the comparatively sensible guest, whoever it is, will act sooner….

    I sent the ever jovial Mein Host of the program the following email….

    Why did you not challenge Stephen Franks’ brutal and ignorant raving?

    Dear Jim, 

    During his confused and highly selective broadside against “cultures that sacrifice innocence”, Stephen Franks forgot to mention the Israeli oppression of Palestinians. Maybe he was too busy skiing to take note of the latest onslaught—or does he support their daily oppression and killing?

    I am sure many listeners were also flabbergasted and disgusted by his equally ignorant comments about the “wrong side being allowed to win in Vietnam”.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • you left that student army guy off yr rightie-list..and boag..and ‘neo-liberalism?..y’know yr soaking in it!’ edwards-the-elder..and the guy who lost his his legs on the mountain..

      ..and mccormick is lurching right at some kinda warp-speed…

      ..and there are some new ones..

      ..the other day a hideous rightwing pr-trout smarmed her way thru her first appearance.

      ..she was ghastly in the extreme…

      ..i find increasingly i choose to take the dogs to the park..

      ..rather than endure the likes of franks/the above..

      ..and you are right..mora never challenges him/them..

      ..no matter what hysterical rightwing drivel/outright/easily-disproved lies/propaganda they may spout/spew out..

      ..mora never says boo!..

      • Morrissey 27.1.1

        you left that student army guy off yr rightie-list..and boag..and ‘neo-liberalism?..y’know yr soaking in it!’

        Thanks, Phillip. I would have put them on that list if I’d remembered. I did it off the top of my head. There are several more of them as well.

        edwards-the-elder..and the guy who lost his his legs on the mountain..
        Brian Edwards and Mark Inglis are conservative, but I don’t think they are as blindly ideological or as brutal as extremists like Franks, Bassett, Williams and Farrar.

        ..and mccormick is lurching right at some kinda warp-speed…

        He is, but he’s a right wing Labour supporter more than he is a hard right nutcase like Stephen Franks. In fact, whenever the producers have been careless enough to pair McCormick with one of those cranks, McCormick has forcefully contested his (or her) narrative—much to the consternation of the dithering host.

  26. Dont worry. Be happy 28

    If this corrupt and frightening government gets back in because Kelvin Davis knocks Hone Harawira out of the race I, for one, will never forgive the Labour Party. Never. Anyone else feel like this?

    • Murray Olsen 28.1

      Very much, but I don’t think it’s likely. We need Mana in parliament, and we need Greens, both because of their policies and the fact that they will pull Labour to the left. We need Labour because of their numbers and not a lot else. I’ll never forget 1984, which has culminated in the crooked rubbish that tries to pass itself off as governance today.

  27. monty 29

    Actually Morrissey your ignorance re Vietnam is incredible. You’ve obviously never been there. Any number of private conversations with the locals will convince anyone with an open mind that the wrong side won. But why let your blind ideological animus be contradicted by real people. Much more comfortable to cling to your stupid leftie groupthink.

    • mickysavage 29.1

      Really Monty? I have been there. The locals have forgiven the carnage that the US has caused to their country but they are still in their own unique way in control of their country.

    • Morrissey 29.2

      Something called “monty” seems a tad bewildered….

      Any number of private conversations with the locals will convince anyone with an open mind that the wrong side won.

      No doubt you also think the wrong side won in South Africa in 1994. And the wrong side won in the American Civil War.

      How many million more Vietnamese do you think the U.S. should have slaughtered? Perhaps you don’t have a limit worked out?

      ….blind ideological animus…. stupid leftie groupthink…

      Quick! Somebody get this inarticulate fool a spittoon!

  28. Ad 30

    Labour broadcast totally pantsed National’s talking head.

  29. monty 31

    Really Micky you should be ashamed of yourself -talk about a useful idiot. The way their country is controlled isn’t unique -it’s called a communist dictatorship you dick. Can you think of any more examples? Get back to me if you can’t.

  30. Xtasy 32

    Hallo All, it has been a while, and I took a break, while my mate kept posting a few bits here now and then.

    I admit I deserved a break, which Lprent defined correctly as a “ban”, to sort my mind and soul out a bit, as I got a bit worked up, more than I should have, on Israel, Palestine and the rest of the drama that still goes on.

    But I have been keeping onto things, and one topic is DR BRATT, there will be more on Dr Bratt, a Bratt Attack of sorts, coming soon, that questionable MSD and WINZ Principal Health Advisor they use, to kick sick, injured and disabled off benefits and to urge them into whatever work there may be.

    We are short shifted, shafted, that is us with serious illness, disability and injury, and they add to insult, most the parties, I am ANGRY.

    So I will not blow my top, just hope that lprent will not throw me out too soon again, and I will work on some comments soon, that will inform more about the shit that goes on in welfare, which is rather “warfare”. What many do not realise is, that Paula Bennett is afraid of the election result and her job, so she has instructed her departments to keep calm, not make too harsh decisions, and to keep most lulled into indifference or a false sense of security. Should the Nats get a third term, get a warm jumper, all on benefits, you will get the worst that has happened in this country since Ruthanasia (look that up on Wiki, please).

  31. Xtasy 33

    Apologies, but these are the “fighters” that I respect and will die for, they are the soul of revolution and ground breaking change. You will hate me for past comments and over the top reactions. I apologise, but forget not the purpose of us being here, also the reason of revolution. Who still stands for that cause?

    I stand for that and more, so take your choice and stand please, we will continue to fight on:

    One good piece worth counting and citing:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fayYhdAeYwQ

    I will deliver MORE soon!

  32. Xtasy 34

    Excuse me, please, I post this for the future of the people that CARE, that actually understand history and that is for Europe, UK and South America and also South Africa. We all need to learn and improve, we can all work together and be one, and so, learn and understand, please, this is not a message of division and hatred, it is an attempt to reconnect and be ONE:

    Much more there comes from!

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