Open mike 23/10/2015

122 comments on “Open mike 23/10/2015 ”

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1. Paul 1

   23 October 2015 at 6:33 am

   Vanity project in trouble.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11533644

   Time to find a new distraction?
   • David H 1.1

     23 October 2015 at 9:43 am

     And Bennett responds with a. ” Look over there Filthy HNZ tenants turning down houses, why? Because the birds sing too loudly”

     Fark she is a nasty piece of work, the worst kind of Politician. The pull the ladder up behind me type.
   • whateva next? 1.2

     23 October 2015 at 9:57 am

     Mentioned yesterday, the NON- story deputy Leader, King v Ardern got traction in MSM purely to distract from Key’s flacid flagpole, what will they conjure up next? Be prepared, it will be even more ridiculous….I can’t wait
     • Anne 1.2.1

       23 October 2015 at 10:29 am

       … what will they conjure up next?

       They already have. Their most noxious female minister, Paula Bennett is on the benny bashing trail again. This time it’s state house tenants. That should be good C/T fodder for the Tory media. Let’s give the bludgers a miserable Xmas… it’s all they deserve.

       God, what a truly vile woman.
       • whateva next? 1.2.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 1:41 pm

         I hear people saying they won’t vote National (any more) because of her, so let’s hope she keeps it up. She is all that is National, in fact all those dreadful female National Ministers are from the same “mould”!
2. Paul 2

   23 October 2015 at 6:38 am

   Declining water quality and increasing emissions.
   We have too many cows.

   ‘But there has been a decline in water quality and a 42 percent increase in greenhouse gas emissions between 1990 and 2013.
   It also found damage to land from more intensive dairy farming was a significant problem.
   Prime Minister John Key said farmers needed to continue to work on reducing their environmental footprint.
   “They are doing that – you are seeing them fencing off all of their waterways and by 2017 that will be compulsory, you are seeing dramatic changes in the way they treat effluent playing out so there is clearly more work to be done.”‘

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/287638/environment-report-depressing-opposition

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV04zyfLyN4
   • Paul 2.1

     23 October 2015 at 6:42 am

     New Zealand – beholden to Climate deniers since the 1990s.

     http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/hot-air-2014

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4fOcNiusRg
     • Paul 2.1.1

       23 October 2015 at 6:44 am

       We must gear rid of capitalism if we want to solve cliamte change.
       Naomi Klein.

       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpuSt_ST4_U
       • Paul 2.1.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 6:46 am

         Naomi Klein at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas

         http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5LuIAJEFUc
         • Tautoko Mangō Mata 2.1.1.1.1

           23 October 2015 at 7:14 am

           “It’s just incredible to me. I’ve never seen anything like this before.”

           That’s what Jessica Blunden, a climate scientist with the National Ocean and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), told the New York Times in an interview following the agency’s release on Wednesday of new figures showing that last month was the hottest September since records began and offered further confirmation that 2015 will ultimately be the hottest year experienced in modern human history.”
           http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/10/22/never-seen-anything-2015-set-be-hottest-year-record

           Article shows graphs of monthly temperatures of last few years
           shows list of Billion dollar weather disasters around the world for this year SO FAR.
       • ianmac 2.1.1.2

         23 October 2015 at 9:45 am

         Thanks Paul. Watched all of the first three. Like all big big problems it is not only hard to get our heads around but even harder to figure out what we little unimportant people can do about it. Government will not act on long term solutions because it would upset the business of market forces.
         Deforestation. Dairying. Fossil fuels. Ugh!
         • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2.1

           23 October 2015 at 1:28 pm

           Government will not act on long term solutions because it would upset the business of market forces.

           It’s not that it would upset market forces but that a few people wouldn’t be able to get rich from doing the same thing that they’ve always done. They’d have to actually spend money on developing the industry.
   • Draco T Bastard 2.2

     23 October 2015 at 8:26 am

     The problem with Cowspiracy is that it misrepresents the positions of multiple organisations.
     • weka 2.2.1

       23 October 2015 at 10:23 am

       The more I hear about this film the worse its reputation gets. It’s also apparently plays fast and loose with the facts on many levels.

       edit, just seen that that Greenpeace article is written by a long term vegan. Heh.
       • Rosie 2.2.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 1:14 pm

         Didn’t yourself and Philip Ure have a real humdinger of an argument over this doco? I think thats where I remember the name from……..
         • weka 2.2.1.1.1

           23 October 2015 at 2:44 pm

           Indeed Rosie, although it was more a case of me making an argument and phil posting a series of ad hominems 😉
           • Rosie 2.2.1.1.1.1

             23 October 2015 at 9:20 pm

             Yes, I remember his style well…………………..

             I also remember being put off watching Cowspiracy. Bit of a silly name too
       • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.2

         23 October 2015 at 1:25 pm

         It’s a pity because the points that it raises about livestock being a major problem is a serious concern and we need to address it but telling lies and misrepresenting other peoples actual position detracts from that message. It leaves people asking Well, if they lied about that then what else did they lie about? rather than them taking on the message and working to produce solutions.
         • weka 2.2.1.2.1

           23 October 2015 at 2:59 pm

           Yep. And it’s a real shame to see the promotion it’s getting by people who are unwilling to look at the film critically. This is the problem with starting from a place of dogmatic ideology, it skews one’s ability to assess things.
3. Tautoko Mangō Mata 3

   23 October 2015 at 7:09 am

   1. “TPP sets time limit on corporate suits against states”
   The Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade pact limits the period for foreign companies to file damages lawsuits against host states over sudden regulatory changes to 3½ years, it was learned Wednesday.

   The limit, included in a TPP provision on investor-state dispute settlement, is designed to prevent abuse of litigation by multinational businesses.

   The provision also states that member governments will not be forced to change regulations even if they lose lawsuits from foreign businesses.”

   http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/10/22/business/tpp-sets-time-limit-corporate-suits-foreign-states/#.Vikjln4rLDd

   *The last sentence means that countries can retain their sovereignty- but they might have to pay dearly for it!

   2. Connolly To Press WH For Early 2016 TPP Vote; Fears GOP Defections
   Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-VA) said Wednesday (Oct. 21) that he plans to drive home the message to the Obama administration that it must bring a Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) implementing bill to a congressional vote within the first two or three months of 2016 or risk delaying the vote until the lame-duck session after the November elections. http://insidetrade.com/
   • Tracey 3.1

     23 October 2015 at 7:37 am

     Sorry, no time to read your links at this stage, who leaked it do you think?
     • Tautoko Mangō Mata 3.1.1

       23 October 2015 at 8:21 am

       The political tradeoffs have been done and the text has now been sent to Tokyo to undergo the ‘legal scrubbing’ process. I guess the Japan Times were given the info.
       • Tautoko Mangō Mata 3.1.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 8:57 am

         TPPA . “As we expected there are very few trade benefits, while the deal gives corporates and foreign investors a lot of power to run roughshod over our democracy.”

         But it hasn’t been signed, and the fight continues!
         14 November is another Nationwide Day of Action against the TPPA!”
         Kerikeri – 2:30pm at Kerikeri Library
         Auckland – 1:00pm at Myers Park
         Hamilton – 1:00pm by Cock and Bull Te Rapa
         Tauranga – 11:00am at Red Square
         Rotorua – 1:00pm, location TBC
         Gisborne – 1:00pm, location TBC
         Palmerston North – 1:00pm, location TBC
         Wellington – 1pm at Midland Park
         Christchurch – 1pm, location TBC
         More locations to come
         http://itsourfuture.org.nz/campaigns/its-not-over-14-november-nationwide-day-of-action/
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1.1.1

           23 October 2015 at 10:37 am

           “…while the deal gives corporates and foreign investors a lot of power to run roughshod over our democracy.”

           and widens the door for increased corporate and foreign investor dominance of government funded contracts.

           And why not?

           According to Auntie “kick the ladder” Paula, these are “a “double A rated, Government guaranteed investment product”

           http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11533295

           Contracts loaded and locked, then sue our collective arses when they fail and we try, through democracy, to put them right.

           Housing. Health Care. Disability Care. Child Protection. Early Childhood Education. Work Testing. Mental Health. ACC. Prisons.

           There’s a recurring theme here….

           Thanks TMM for the list of protest dates, times, locations.
   • RedBaronCV 3.2

     23 October 2015 at 7:49 am

     So if you pass stuff that comes into effect in 3 and 3/4 years they can’t sue as they have had sufficent notice?
     • Tracey 3.2.1

       23 October 2015 at 9:10 am

       3.5 years is a long time for a company though. They can get proceedings issued in hours. I wonder what the definition of “sudden” is going to be?
   • ianmac 3.3

     23 October 2015 at 9:48 am

     “The provision also states that member governments will not be forced to change regulations even if they lose lawsuits from foreign businesses.”
     Yes. Devil in the detail.
4. Psycho Milt 4

   23 October 2015 at 7:31 am

   A good read for the blog’s resident Assad/Putin enthusiasts: Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian air strikes began, doctors say.

   Take-home message: Russians much better at getting away with war crimes than Americans.

   Mind you, the Syrian “government” is no slouch:

   Physicians for Human Rights said it had documented 313 attacks on medical facilities and the deaths of 679 medical personnel in Syria since protests against the regime of Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011 until the end of August 2015. “Syrian government forces have been responsible for more than 90% of these attacks,” the organisation said.
   • Tracey 4.1

     23 October 2015 at 7:38 am

     “Russians much better at getting away with war crimes than Americans.”

     History suggest that they both are pretty adept at getting away with them. It’s all a fucking mess. And still the innocent keep dying.
   • northshoredoc 4.2

     23 October 2015 at 8:04 am

     @PM

     What a complete shambles, very depressing we can only imagine how bad it must be for those living there while we continuing to bleat about our lot back in NZ.
     • Tracey 4.2.1

       23 October 2015 at 9:08 am

       Is that the measure we set for ourselves Doc? As long as we are not Syria or India we should shut up and question nothing? I know how lucky I am to be here in NZ Doc, but I also know a number for whom each day is a struggle in NZ.
       • Rosie 4.2.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 9:26 am

         Nothing more irritating than the old “you should be more grateful, at least you’re not living in India/Syria/Afghanistan/ add-any-impoverished- war-torn country- here”.

         A stock standard line for the RWer. Not only does it insult the citizens of that country named, it suggests a person is incapable of standing up to attempt to get their own needs met AND have compassion for others who are suffering in different circumstances from themselves.

         A classic example of dichotomous thinking. The logic behind this kind of thinking is “I struggle week to week, I am depressed and unwell and can’t get help but I should just STFU because there are people in other countries worse off than me.”

         Northshore Doc: It’s possible for a person to consider both their own needs, their country’s needs and the needs of others in other countries while understanding that they differ greatly and all suffering is relative.

         Suffering isn’t a contest.
         • Karen 4.2.1.1.1

           23 October 2015 at 9:36 am

           +1 Rosie
           I shall use your “suffering isn’t a contest” next time I hear someone bleating on about how it is so much worse in other countries. Those of us who are concerned about the poor and disadvantaged in NZ are also the ones who are concerned about injustice and poverty elsewhere in the world.
         • northshoredoc 4.2.1.1.2

           23 October 2015 at 11:16 am

           I think the word I’m looking for in response to you is diddums Rosie.

           Or perhaps 🙄 will suffice.
           • Rosie 4.2.1.1.2.1

             23 October 2015 at 1:22 pm

             Um. What?

             There’s no need to be nasty and I don’t know what you are saying “diddums” too. I don’t know what part of my comment would provoke a “diddums”. Can you please explain?

             You know, sometimes, for someone in the health profession you have some strange ideas about compassion. I hope you don’t tell your patients who are unwell, and struggling to cope with their financial situations “don’t worry, it could be worse, you could be a Syrian refugee”.
             • northshoredoc …

               23 October 2015 at 2:19 pm

               No I usually tell them something like…

               ‘Don’t worry things could be worse you could be a dreary moaner who spends their life on political blogs.”
               • Karen …

                 23 October 2015 at 2:38 pm

                 Are there any moderators out there?

                 This is beyond offensive.

                 Kia kaha Rosie. You are one of the few “must read” contributors on the Standard for me.

                 [lprent: For me as well. However Dr Mengele is actually keeping within the policy bounds for OpenMike. His comment(s) express his opinion even if they are pointed abuse. ]
                 • gangnam style …

                   23 October 2015 at 3:04 pm

                   spot on rosie, thank you.
                   • marty mars …

                     23 October 2015 at 4:49 pm

                     Yep good comment Rosie
                   • weka …

                     23 October 2015 at 5:39 pm

                     I appreciated it too Rosie, well done.
                   • Rosie …

                     23 October 2015 at 9:31 pm

                     Thanks for your comments folks.

                     It’s quite funny, doc’s last comment. I think he spends more time on TS than I do. I don’t know when he spend time with his patients.

                     (Glad I don’t have someone like him for a Doctor. We both went into a mini period of mourning after last years election defeat, during a consult. He knows what harm this govt has done. He see’s it in his surgery)
       • northshoredoc 4.2.1.2

         23 October 2015 at 11:14 am

         Tracey I don’t know why you felt the need to put words in my mouth that I didn’t say ?

         “I know how lucky I am to be here in NZ Doc, but I also know a number for whom each day is a struggle in NZ.”

         Me too …your point ?
   • Grindlebottom 4.3

     23 October 2015 at 10:59 am

     Take-home message: Russians much better at getting away with war crimes than Americans. Mind you, the Syrian “government” is no slouch:

     Very good point. I’ve seen a few reports on tv and in online news articles that Russia and/or Syrian forces have bombed hospitals of late. But they don’t get anything like the days of tv and newspaper reports of follow up interviews, demands for explanations & apologies, calls for independent investigations that the US airforce’s attack on Kunduz did. Curious really, you’d think the Western press would be all over these situations.

     It’s still a situation where Russia and Assad have the initiative and are controlling events there though. The West still has a problem determining how much support they can safely give the “moderate” opposition fighters, because there really aren’t too many “moderates” there from what I can see

     Although all the analysts I’ve read say that win or lose Assad has no future, the sad reality is nobody yet has been able to describe any realistic form of stable unitary government that might succeed him. And ISIS has firmly embedded itself into the communities of the areas it controls. Driving them out must necessarily involve yet more masses of refugees and civilian casualties.
     • Pasupial 4.3.1

       23 October 2015 at 11:24 am

       Assad’s Regime and Putin’s Russia don’t much pretend to be better than they are. Evil bastards doing evil things in the pursuit of power doesn’t have far to go as a story. However, with the hypocrisy of the US claiming to be all for; democracy and human rights, then bombing hospitals and weddings, that story just has more legs for a journalist.

       [edit] Also the rendition of US captives to Assad’s Syria last decade for the purposes of torture just adds to the hypocrisy.
       • Colonial Viper 4.3.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 1:57 pm

         France, UK, USA, Russia have been running military flights and airstrikes into and out of Syria.

         Only one of those countries asked for permission from the Syrian Government – Russia.

         The others just decided to invade the airspace of another country…because they could.
     • Colonial Viper 4.3.2

       23 October 2015 at 1:55 pm

       Very good point. I’ve seen a few reports on tv and in online news articles that Russia and/or Syrian forces have bombed hospitals of late. But they don’t get anything like the days of tv and newspaper reports of follow up interviews, demands for explanations & apologies, calls for independent investigations that the US airforce’s attack on Kunduz did.

       Firstly, Russia has declared that it will not airstrike civilian targets like mosques and hospitals, *even if they are being used as military bases or staging points by Islamists*.

       Secondly, the reason that western media has not been “all over” the reports of such attacks is that most of them won’t stand up to scrutiny.

       Thirdly, the United States and its allies have funded and equipped a destructive, multi-year proxy war against Assad, completely against international norms and international law.

       The West still has a problem determining how much support they can safely give the “moderate” opposition fighters, because there really aren’t too many “moderates” there from what I can see

       Well the US has changed its strategy from “training and equipping” fighters in Syria to simply equipping them – via blind parachute drops of munitions and hoping they don’t fall into the wrong hands. Ridiculous.
       • Grindlebottom 4.3.2.1

         23 October 2015 at 2:29 pm

         Firstly, Russia has declared that it will not airstrike civilian targets like mosques and hospitals, *even if they are being used as military bases or staging points by Islamists*.

         Secondly, the reason that western media has not been “all over” the reports of such attacks is that most of them won’t stand up to scrutiny.Hard to say

         I’m no fan of the US military or its commanders. But I don’t see any reason to believe the Russians aren’t hitting hospitals in the face of reports they have hit hospitals. Physicians for Human Rights doesn’t seem to be the sort of organisation likely to just be making it up:
         http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/press/press-releases/russian-warplanes-strike-medical-facilities-in-syria.html

         And even if the Russians are not deliberately targeting hospitals, you can bet Assad’s forces would have no qualms about doing so.
         • Colonial Viper 4.3.2.1.1

           23 October 2015 at 2:42 pm

           I don’t trust PHR’s statement on this.

           For starters: how exactly does a small volunteer group of medics can tell whether it was an American, French, UK or Russian airstrike which hit a hospital. Especially as Russian planes are staying above 5000m altitude during missions in order to avoid MANPAD fire from infantry.

           Secondly this statement from their press release:

           “Bashar al-Assad’s forces have been relentlessly attacking Syria’s health care system for the past four years and the Russian government is now following in their footsteps,” said Widney Brown, PHR’s director of programs. –

           These are weasel words. Assad and his father *built* Syria’s public health system. The US and its allies Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar have been fuelling a massive war against Assad.

           By the way I have no doubt that Assad’s forces have shelled medical facilities previously – just as I have no doubt that the Islamists have done so. After all, entire towns in Syria have been levelled to roughly 1m high.
           • Grindlebottom 4.3.2.1.1.1

             23 October 2015 at 3:12 pm

             Assad doesn’t have any fighter-bombers. The only bombs his forces have been able to drop have been barrel bombs, dropped from helicopters. If bombs are hitting these hospitals, they’ve come from bombers. And at times when the Russians have confirmed they were conducting air operations in those locations.
             • Colonial Viper …

               23 October 2015 at 3:20 pm

               So describe to me again how medical doctor volunteers for PHR managed to conclusively decide – and then definitively state- that the airstrikes were Russian, but not US, French, or UK?

               Or is it just as you say – the Russians have started bombing, so these bombs must have been Russian?

               To cut to the chase – PHR might very well be an NGO funded by the US Gov. I have not seen any other group corroborate their claims about multiple hospitals being hit by Russian forces.
               • Grindlebottom …

                 23 October 2015 at 3:32 pm

                 This article explains how the people being bombed know that it’s Russian SU-35 fighters doing the bombing. One doctor (now resident in Germany) suggests maybe the Russians aren’t deliberately bombing hospitals but are bombing based on information from the Syrian army.
                 http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/10/05/russians-blamed-for-attack-on-syrian-hospital.html

                 How do they know the strikes were not by US, French or UK aircraft? Because they’re hitting areas where and when the Western coalition’s aircraft are not operating. How do we know they’re not operating there? Because the Russians would be telling everybody if they were.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   23 October 2015 at 3:48 pm

                   The Russians only operate a few SU-35s in Syria; the bulk of their attack force are much older SU-24 and Su-25s.

                   How do we know they’re not operating there? Because the Russians would be telling everybody if they were.

                   ?

                   I’m surprised that you think you know what info the Russians would release about US airstrikes and what they wouldn’t, but OK.

                   By the way the Russians have brought high tech surveillance and recon gear to Syria (via Foreign Policy journal). I agree that if hospitals were hit by the Russians, it would have been a fully deliberate and conscious choice.

                   https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/06/spy-planes-signal-jammers-and-putins-high-tech-war-in-syria/
                   • Grindlebottom …

                     23 October 2015 at 4:17 pm

                     I’m surprised you think the Russians would keep quiet about seeing Western Alliance aircraft in the vicinity of where they were operating, and then not mention it when they were being accused of bombing hospitals. But then, there you go. I suppose if everything is a devious US plot that would be a logical conclusion.

                     (Looks like there were four SU-30SM’s sent to Syria, not SU-35’s. They do look a bit alike.)
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     23 October 2015 at 4:24 pm

                     you’ll notice that Russia doesn’t bother to respond directly to most of the noise in the western MSM.

                     Re: “devious US plot”

                     the US has confirmed CIA backed anti-Assad fighters in the field, and wilkileaks has produced US diplomatic cables detailing how best to destabilise Syria.

                     I presume that counts.
                   • Grindlebottom …

                     23 October 2015 at 4:40 pm

                     Yes, sure, it most certainly does count in your favour in the situation we’re discussing if those diplomatic cables suggest that to destabilise Syria the US and/or allied aircraft should bomb hospitals at the exact same time and location as Russian aircraft are carrying out ground attacks.

                     Do they do that, do you know?
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     23 October 2015 at 4:56 pm

                     I guess we’re going to keep doing this dance?

                     Basically, PHR claims to know for certain that all those hospitals were definitely hit by Russian airstrikes, and not by any US, UK, or French planes. In fact they don’t even mention the possibility.

                     I have a very simple question – where did an organisation of volunteer medics on the ground get that information from?
         • Colonial Viper 4.3.2.1.2

           23 October 2015 at 2:58 pm

           How can you tell a “good” airstrike from a “bad” airstrike?

           From the War Nerd:

           Now for the next accusation, that the Russian strikes are brutal.

           Well, yeah, they are. That’s the general idea. I don’t mean to be flippant here, but air strikes only look neat when you stay up there and watch from the pilot’s angle…

           As a rule, you can tell when the media approve of air strikes by the angle. If it’s all nice clean pilot’s-view of distant explosions, it’s a good strike. If they show you funerals, weeping relatives, blasted apartments, it’s a bad strike. So you can tell, just from the headline—“This Is What the Russian Air Strikes in Syria Look Like from the Ground”—that it’s a bad strike…When the strike is done by our own airforce, you still don’t see them unless you go to foreign or marginal leftist sites. But boy do they start popping up when it’s the Russians playing their air-to-ground video games.

           There are a total of 29 photographs here, and three-quarters of them are of the pity-inspiring variety. First photo, a ruined neighborhood; second, column of smoke; third, weeping old woman; fourth, civilian car covered with rubble; fifth, horrible scythe-shaped cluster munitions; sixth, a wounded civilian being carried to hospital…

           It’s not that there’s anything false about these images. They’re a pretty good montage of the horror of an air strike…Russians are bombing more or less the way all the other foreign air forces in Syria are bombing.

           https://pando.com/2015/10/19/bombed-stupid/1a09532b73281d33b41afae34cc6d8cc1bf58b4c/
         • One Two 4.3.2.1.3

           23 October 2015 at 3:05 pm

           Sounds as ‘legitimate’ as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights’
           • Colonial Viper 4.3.2.1.3.1

             23 October 2015 at 3:21 pm

             That’s what I am thinking.
           • Colonial Viper 4.3.2.1.3.2

             23 October 2015 at 3:37 pm

             Check out this PHR press release on the Kunduz MSF incident where US forces assaulted the hospital for over half an hour.

             1) Count how many times PHR rhetorically attacks the US Government or US military for the incident by name. (None).

             2) Note how the last 1/3 of the PHR press release on the Kunduz MSF incident in AFGHANISTAN somehow manages to turn into an attack on the SYRIAN Government.

             Make your own conclusions.

             http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/press/press-releases/physicians-for-human-rights-condemns-attack-on-clinic-in-afghanistan.html
             • Grindlebottom …

               23 October 2015 at 4:05 pm

               Read it. The fact it came out too soon, bought the original US line about “collateral damage” and was never followed up by another one specifically condemning the yanks once the US admitted it was them, and that they’d attacked the hospital for an hour, doesn’t mean they are wrong about the Russians and Syrian forces attacking Syrian hospitals.

               They’re not so pro-US they don’t criticise them:
               http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/issues/torture/us-torture/reports-on-torture.html

               The US and Western alliance in Syria has been completely stymied which is hardly surprising as they have no idea what they’re doing there or all the forces in play. But Assad and the Russians are going to kill thousands taking back control of people who don’t want to be under his control. The place has become a hell-hole with no discernible satisfactory outcome likely.

               Edit: Putin’s bottom line is that the Western Alliance must stop supporting the opposition forces attacking Assad’s forces before Russia will join them in joint attacks on ISIL forces. He is so far most in control of the situation there, apart from the Kurds in the North.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 23 October 2015 at 4:13 pm

                 Yes, the Russians and the Syrian Army are going to kill a lot of people in the next few weeks. It will be very unpleasant.

                 Worth remembering that perhaps 2/3 of the people who have fled the fighting in Syria have fled to Assad-controlled areas.

                 My view is that Russia/Assad are trying to build a viable coastal Alawite/minorities sector of Syria and that they will leave the inland areas to ISIL/Al Nusra.

                 Read it. The fact it came out too soon, bought the original US line about “collateral damage” and was never followed up by another one specifically condemning the yanks once the US admitted it was them

                 The line in that press release which fingered it as BS was where PHR called on “all parties” in the conflict to show restraint. When the incident could only have been a US airstrike, deliberate or accidental.

                 And the last 1/3 of a press release on Afghanistan pivoting to become an attack on the Syrian Government.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 23 October 2015 at 4:20 pm

                 RE: your edit

                 I will go with the War Nerd’s conclusions around this – only Russia currently has an air campaign which makes any strategic sense. The US/coalition air campaign doesn’t have strategic cohesion which is why it has accomplished so little against ISIL in the last year plus.

                 btw I suspect Putin will not be counting on the West and its allies to stop supporting anti-Assad fighters, and will instead just burn them out, sector by sector, including with heavy weapons such as illegal cluster munitions.
                 • Grindlebottom …

                   23 October 2015 at 4:59 pm

                   Worth remembering that perhaps 2/3 of the people who have fled the fighting in Syria have fled to Assad-controlled areas.

                   Yes, I read that somewhere too a few days ago, but only in one article, and I haven’t been able to find it again. I found it a bit hard to believe to be honest. I’m not saying it’s wrong but I’ve not had much success in finding any source that shows where all the reported 11 million internally displaced refugees have gone.

                   I agree with your btw. I think Vlad the Lad is just twisting the knife there for a bit of fun. He knows he’s on stronger ground than they are.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     23 October 2015 at 5:02 pm

                     A lot to Jordan, Iran, and Lebanon I think…relatively ‘few’ (though several hundred thousand) towards Europe.

                     Most internally displaced.

                     (AFAIK)

                     One presumes the people who have left Syria either had no choice or were mostly anti-Assad in inclination.
       • Psycho Milt 4.3.2.2

         23 October 2015 at 3:06 pm

         Firstly, Russia has declared that it will not airstrike civilian targets like mosques and hospitals, *even if they are being used as military bases or staging points by Islamists*.

         The country that declared it didn’t have any troops in the Crimea or in Ukraine also declares it doesn’t destroy hospitals, despite having bombed four of them? Quelle surprise.

         Thirdly, the United States and its allies have funded and equipped a destructive, multi-year proxy war against Assad, completely against international norms and international law.

         Your tinfoil hat is very fetching, but isn’t really relevant to the fact Assad and Putin have been bombing hospitals and other medical facilities.
         • Colonial Viper 4.3.2.2.1

           23 October 2015 at 3:50 pm

           ?

           The Americans have made very well reported statements officially objecting to Russia hitting CIA backed forces in Syria.
           • Psycho Milt 4.3.2.2.1.1

             23 October 2015 at 4:23 pm

             To see the tinfoil hat, try seeing the American Revolution as “France funded and equipped a destructive, multi-year proxy war against George III” – there’s a way in which you could kind of see the conflict that way, but only if you have a very bizarrely misplaced sense of what’s significant.

             And it remains irrelevant.
             • Colonial Viper …

               23 October 2015 at 4:28 pm

               but only if you have a very bizarrely misplaced sense of what’s significant.

               Correct – history will decide in 20, 50 or 100 years time what is significant out of this Syria issue.
         • Colonial Viper 4.3.2.2.2

           23 October 2015 at 3:52 pm

           The country that declared it didn’t have any troops in the Crimea…

           ?

           Russia had 20,000 to 25,000 based troops in Crimea via treaty agreement with the Ukraine.
           • McFlock 4.3.2.2.2.1

             23 October 2015 at 4:27 pm

             does that include the russian-speaking units who putin reckoned had been equipped by bulk shopping from army surplus stores?
             • Colonial Viper …

               23 October 2015 at 4:31 pm

               Maybe Putin has been reading a copy of Sun Tzu gifted to him by Xi Jin Ping?
               • McFlock …

                 23 October 2015 at 4:41 pm

                 So now you are arguing that Putin is adept in the art of deception.

                 Which makes Russia’s declaration “that it will not airstrike civilian targets like mosques and hospitals, *even if they are being used as military bases or staging points by Islamists*” at best unreliable.

                 It’s something they threw out for gullible little putinestas to regurgitate because if Fox News is bad, RT must be true. The hegemonic enemy of my hegemonic enemy must be the benevolent liberator of the oppressed…
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   23 October 2015 at 4:53 pm

                   McFlock, only one country in the world has “hegemonic” aspirations. Its the one with over 800 military bases (or almost double that number depending on how you categorise a ‘military base’) in over 50 countries.
                   • McFlock …

                     23 October 2015 at 5:13 pm

                     only one country in the world has “hegemonic” aspirations

                     lol

                     So now I’m not sure whether you’re really that naive, or that you’re simply scurrying away from the two contradictory positions you’ve established.

                     Your first counter to the proposition”Russians [are] much better at getting away with war crimes than Americans” was that Russia has declared that it will not airstrike civilian targets like mosques and hospitals, yet a few comments later you are praising Putin’s willingness to deceive in order to further his (absolutely non-hegemonic /sarc) geopolitical interests as being akin to something out of Sun Tzu.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     23 October 2015 at 5:19 pm

                     Neither Russia nor China have global imperial intentions.

                     As I said, only one world power does.

                     It is the one with over 800 military bases in over 50 countries.
                   • McFlock …

                     23 October 2015 at 5:22 pm

                     Neither Russia nor China have global imperial intentions.

                     Then why is China making aircraft carriers? Don’t need those for home waters defense. Why does Russia want to keep its port in the med? Doesn’t need that for home defense.
           • Psycho Milt 4.3.2.2.2.2

             23 October 2015 at 4:28 pm

             We both know I’m referring to the Russian soldiers operating without identifying badges who were involved in the annexation – although, I’m sure that for you they didn’t exist because the Russian government has said they didn’t.
             • Colonial Viper …

               23 October 2015 at 4:29 pm

               oh yeah, the ‘little green men’ were pretty real…
5. Tautoko Mangō Mata 5

   23 October 2015 at 7:59 am

   Here is some reading for Hekia Parata and David Seymour.
   “CHARTER SCHOOL BLACK HOLE: SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
   REVEALS HUGE GAPS IN PUBLIC INFO ON TAXPAYER MONEY SPENT”
   A REPORTERS’ GUIDE by the Center for Media and Democracy

   “:The study attributes this lack of accountability “to the way the charter industry has been built by proponents, favoring ‘flexibility’ over rules.”

   “That flexibility has allowed an epidemic of fraud, waste, and mismanagement that would not be tolerated in public schools,” CMD states, noting that charters “are often policed—if they are really policed at all—by charter proponents, both within government agencies and within private entities tasked with oversight.”

   In fact, that oversight is so spotty that CMD’s investigation turned up dozens of “ghost” schools, where federal grants were awarded to charters that never even opened.”
   http://www.prwatch.org/files/new_charter_school_black_hole_report_oct_21_2015.pdf

   How many more times will the National Govt follow flawed policy from overseas even when the evidence of the failure of that policy is readily available! Why do National wilfully ignore any evidence that contradicts their chosen plan?
   Is it stupidity or deceitfulness …or both?
   • savenz 5.1

     23 October 2015 at 9:38 am

     +1
   • tc 5.2

     23 October 2015 at 12:59 pm

     Parata and Seymour are well aware of this as that’s why this policy exists and it’s pinned to the national subsidary ACT’s donkeys tail for spin and distancing purposes.

     More enrichment of a select few at taxpayers expense and deliberately excluded from the OIA.

     They’re not ingoring the evidence they’re relying on it.
   • Draco T Bastard 5.3

     23 October 2015 at 1:14 pm

     Why do National wilfully ignore any evidence that contradicts their chosen plan?

     Does it contradict their plan? Seems to me that it’s working as National would want it to as it transfers huge amounts of public money into private profit. They don’t seem to care if we get any services from that expenditure.
6. Northsider 6

   23 October 2015 at 8:05 am

   The end of an era.
   The Tories yesterday voted to reduce the voting powers Scottish MPs in Westminster.
   Since 1707, when Great Britain was formed from the Union of England and Scotland, every MP had an equal vote. Yesterday that ended. This will accelerate the campaign for full Scottish Independence.

   “Labour’s Gerald Kaufman, the longest-serving member of the house, declared “a day of shame for the House of Commons”. He decried the debate as “one of the nastiest, most unpleasant I have attended in 45 years”, prompted by “a government with no respect for the House.”
   • Rosie 6.1

     23 October 2015 at 9:29 am

     Interesting piece of news Northsider. Do you have a link/reference for that so we can learn more about it?
     • Northsider 6.1.1

       23 October 2015 at 12:29 pm

       The new laws are called EVEL. English Votes for English Laws.

       http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13890833.Tories_accused_of_driving_wedge_between_England_and_Scotland_with_new_Evel_rights_for_MPs/

       http://beta.scotsman.com/news/politics/english-votes-for-english-laws-evel-passed-by-westminster-1-3925025

       http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11948829/MPs-back-English-only-votes-as-SNP-warns-it-will-trigger-end-of-union.html

       http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/22/commons-passes-english-vetoes-for-english-laws-plan

       https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707
       • Rosie 6.1.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 1:29 pm

         Fantastic thanks Northsider. I’ll take a look when I get a chance this arvo. The Scots political blog Bella Caledonia might have some good commentary on this too, in a few days time:

         http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/
         • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1

           23 October 2015 at 2:06 pm

           This is a win-win for the Tories.

           If Scotland is driven out of the Union, the rest of the UK will be ruled by Tories for decades.
           • Bill 6.1.1.1.1.1

             23 October 2015 at 3:48 pm

             The cynical bit in the whole thing is that if there is a Labour or Labour/ SNP government in Westminster, then said government may well be unable to pass legislation for England and Wales. ie, the Tory opposition in England and Wales might have the numbers to defeat any legislation that falls within the scope of EVEL. Any Labour or SNP/Labour government would essentially need a majority in excess of 59 (the number of Scottish seats).
           • Bill Drees 6.1.1.1.1.2

             23 October 2015 at 5:13 pm

             It is what a number of Tory grandees want. Tim Bell, Thatcher’s AdMan, said as much in an interview during the recent election count. They see Northrn Ireland under joint governance with the Republic and Scotland no longer a source of oil income. Rather than wait for the constitutional reshape that will happen when NI and Scotland finally go, these Tories want to own all the levers of the constitutional process and shape the stand-alone England (including the county called Wales) into a Tory Valhalla.

             The SNP knows this and will play it to their advantage. Many of those who voted to stay in the UK in the Independence Referendum will see this as a betrayal of the “Vow” made to them by Cameron and Brown, the Tories and Labour.
       • ianmac 6.1.1.2

         23 October 2015 at 3:28 pm

         And No Right Turn:
         http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2015/10/a-tory-veto-in-uk.html
7. RTM 7

   23 October 2015 at 8:31 am

   Forgotten history: if New Zealanders remembered the refugees that filled their roads in 1863 & 1933, they might empathise with today’s Syrians: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2015/10/new-zealands-road-of-refugees.html
8. Penny Bright 8

   23 October 2015 at 9:14 am

   WHICH ‘developers, company directors, property valuers and lawyers’ are allegedly involved in this ‘large scale Auckland mortgage fraud’ being currently investigated by the SFO?
   _______________________________________________________
   ‘Large scale’ Auckland mortgage fraud

   Thursday, 22 October 2015
   The New Zealand Herald

   The Serious Fraud Office says Auckland’s property market and the scale of commercial developments is a ‘key environmental risk’.
   The Serious Fraud Office is investigating large-scale mortgage fraud in the Auckland property market involving developers, company directors, property valuers and lawyers.

   “Auckland’s property market and the scale of impending commercial developments represent a key environmental risk,” the SFO said in its 2015 annual report released this week.

   “We have invested significant resources into investigating a large-scale mortgage fraud involving highly organised teams of property developers, shell company directors, property valuers and lawyers.”

   The SFO, which aims to reduce the impact of serious financial crime on both the economy and the public, said the investigation is ongoing and declined further comment.
   ______________________________________________
   Penny Bright
   • Sacha 8.1

     23 October 2015 at 12:29 pm

     Duplicate of your post to Open Mike yesterday http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22102015/#comment-1085517
9. Atiawa 9

   23 October 2015 at 10:57 am

   The Taranaki Daily News reported on Keys visit to New Plymouth yesterday. Having a close involvement in the oil & gas industry I was surprised by the contradictory quotes by our PM. My understanding is that there will be no off-shore “prospecting” activity around NZ this summer and very little land based “prospecting” activity.
   I called the journalist at the newspaper and enquired as to what he believed the PM was referring to when he spoke about “prospecting” activity and how busy the industry would be. Surprise, surprise he couldn’t tell me, although he wrote the story!

   Take a look for yourself and decide if our PM is simply full of it!

   http://WWW.Stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/73296265/no-increase-in-oil-prices-any-time-soon-says-pm
   • Grindlebottom 9.1

     23 October 2015 at 11:23 am

     This probably matches up with this announcement:

     Govt releases new areas for oil and gas exploration:
     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11425029
     • Atiawa 9.1.1

       23 October 2015 at 11:55 am

       The issuing of exploration licences and the time-frame involved to utilise the licence is under review. Explorers – new or established – will not be coming here this summer. Yet Key had this to say yesterday;

       ” This summer is expected to be the biggest season in prospecting we’ve seen around NZ”.

       Where?
       • Grindlebottom 9.1.1.1

         23 October 2015 at 12:04 pm

         Hmmm. Yeah, I dunno now. All I can find in that herald report is a one liner that says “New permits will be announced in December.” I thought maybe they’d be all set up to go on receipt of a licence but doesn’t sound right.

         So, don’t know. Seems an odd thing to do to promise a busy summer of exploration if it’s not happening. PM’s a known fibber. But then, who knows what he said. The reporter doesn’t exactly sound like a bright spark either.
         • Atiawa 9.1.1.1.1

           23 October 2015 at 12:21 pm

           The reporter told me he had it all on tape, hence the quotation marks in his story. I suggested he call PEPANZ the industries lobby group – similar to Federated Farmers I would imagine – to clarify the PM’s comments.
           He promised that he would along with enquiries to the PM’s office.

           Once again a classic example of shoddy journalism.
           The Prime Minister said it so it must be right.
           • Grindlebottom 9.1.1.1.1.1

             23 October 2015 at 12:24 pm

             At least he agreed to chase it up. Be interesting to see if he gets back to you. Did he say he would?
10. Pasupial 10

    23 October 2015 at 11:13 am

    I’ve been accused of being PC often enough when objecting to the more offensive utterences of others (retard, gay, slut, nigger etc). A lot depends on context, but it does seem to come down to basic courtesy, and recognising that others are as human as yourself. This Guardian article is a good examination of that term, though I feel that it is more; defense of privilege, and habit, rather than fear that lies at the heart for most.

    if the antithesis of some dreaded oversensitivity is spewing vile, hateful and venomous rhetoric about people who are leading movements both big and small to strengthen and enhance all of humanity, then, at a bare minimum, we are going to need a little more sensitivity.

    But there is the fear of “political correctness”, and then there is the reality of what’s considered politically acceptable. It is not politically correct to recognize and honor the lives of undocumented immigrants and their children in this day and age…
    It is not politically correct to object to the gender pay gap…
    It is not politically correct to highlight the fact that black and brown people are violently profiled, discriminated against and underrepresented in government and industry…
    It is not politically correct to ensure that transgender people are the arbiters of their own experience, and believe that they should be deferred to on matters of their safety and livelihood…
    We are more interesting and nuanced as a culture and a society when we both recognize and value our variances and seek to include rather than exclude.

    Right now, that feels a little politically incorrect to say.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/22/fear-lies-at-the-heart-of-opposition-to-political-correctness
11. Tautoko Mangō Mata 11

    23 October 2015 at 11:17 am

    Gordon Campbell writes about the retrograde nature of the TPP wrt copyright.
    ” At a time when the US courts are making a case for the defence of “fair use” and “transformative” use” and are loudly re-stating the over-riding “public good” arguments for a limited copyright term, the US entertainment industry moguls – and their political cronies – are headed in the opposite direction, and are intent on maximising their commercial gains and elevating them above all other relevant issues.

    The ‘free trade’ banner is being abused by these US companies to roll back the losses they’ve been suffering in court over the past decade. Regularly, the multinationals have lost even the civil actions they have taken – eg Viacom vs Youtube – over alleged copyright infringement.”
    ……
    “Genius, as the writer Lewis Hyde once said, needs to “tinker in a collective shop”. In the misleading name of ‘free’ trade, the TPP is trying to shut that shop down to new entrants. ”
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1510/S00047/gordon-campbell-on-copyright-the-authors-guild-case-tpp.htm

    TPP is NOT a free trade agreement! March on 14 November!
12. Dazzer 12

    23 October 2015 at 12:01 pm

    Keep up with it guys. It simple shows the left are preparing for an occupation of the opposition benches rather than preparing to act as a government.

    All I’m see is a policy that was effectively the same as Labour’s re the flag being opposed now simply because it’s being promoted by National.

    No wonder the flip flop meme has disappeared.

    [lprent: troll from 2008 repeats comment from 2008 that doesn’t have anything to do with post. Diverted to OpenMikr. ]
13. ankerawshark 13

    23 October 2015 at 12:18 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11532921

    Dribble and spin from Claire Trevitt
    • Grindlebottom 13.1

      23 October 2015 at 12:55 pm

      Gawd what a load of tripe. What an odious individual Trevett is.
    • Grindlebottom 13.2

      23 October 2015 at 2:07 pm

      And more of Jo Moir’s anti-Labour mischief-making, repeating her baseless allegation that Andrew Little “snubbed” Ardern in reappointing Annette King as deputy.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/73319715/jacinda-ardern-responds-to-being-called-pretty-bloody-stupid
14. Peter 14

    23 October 2015 at 12:47 pm

    Modern Union Tactics

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trade-union-bill-unite-is-finding-new-ways-to-compel-employers-to-act-a6704881.html
    • Atiawa 14.1

      23 October 2015 at 2:00 pm

      Good read and ideas around organising, but I fear that unless industry agreements are reached – something along the lines of the old award bargaining system – the union movement will continue to chase it’s tail.
15. Ovid 15

    23 October 2015 at 1:03 pm

    Jacinda Ardern: Breaking Silence. Jacinda responds to Hooton’s recent criticism.
    • McFlock 15.1

      23 October 2015 at 1:20 pm

      interesting.

      Especially the point about the main problem being commentator-led discussion.
    • Grindlebottom 15.2

      23 October 2015 at 1:27 pm

      Well, that puts a much different perspective on Hooton’s snide attack piece, doesn’t it.
      • Rosemary McDonald 15.2.1

        23 October 2015 at 1:57 pm

        As long as Hooten thinks he’s clever…..
16. Dazzer 16

    23 October 2015 at 1:26 pm

    If my comment has been deliberately removed I’m amazed and amused. Clearly only certain types of agitation are acceptable (I will go away and read the about policy too).

    The head post is not about the process but about the failure of the public to accept the PM’s enthusiasm to change the flag.

    I simply pointed out that Labour had the same view that we should review the options. There is no difference except a fierce determination that no such nation(al) building should happen under Key.

    [lprent: It was deliberately removed to OpenMike. We permit diversions. But when you are commenting on a post, then comment on the topic of the post. This one also moved to OpenMike becasue it appears to be all about your habit of self pleasuring while writing. That is the last time I will exert myself to educate a idiot troll. ]
    • One Anonymous Bloke 16.1

      23 October 2015 at 1:53 pm

      Divisive characters tend to have that effect on people (Thirty percent of the electorate is not a consensus.) Your argument ignores other far more substantive concerns.
17. Grim 17

    23 October 2015 at 2:28 pm

    “the Guardian” is that the British world for “Herald”

    Designed to influence not inform.
18. Morrissey 18

    23 October 2015 at 4:34 pm

    Will Jesse Mulligan give this monster the treatment he deserves?
    Or will he let him dominate and chortle complicitly, as Paul Holmes did ten years ago?

    in 2005, the massively over-rated British and Irish Lions coach Clive Woodward appointed Tony Blair’s disgraced hitman Alistair Campbell as manager of the team. At the team’s first training session, in Albany, Paul Holmes dared to ask him about his role in the death of Dr David Kelly. Campbell contemptuously brushed him off.

    Now Campbell is back on our radar. This intriguing little notice appeared on the Radio NZ website recently….

    COMING UP ON JESSE MULLIGAN, 1–4PM
    3:10 pm Tuesday 27 October:

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Alistair Campbell

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Strategy, leadership and teamship. This is the Holy Trinity of winning according to Alistair Campbell who helped Tony Blair win three terms as British Prime Minister as his press secretary His position gave him access to winning business leaders, athletes, artists and politicians. His new book, Winners: And How They Succeed examines the qualities of everyone from Richard Branson and Sir Clive Woodward to Bill Gates and the Queen to identify what it takes to win.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/20151020
19. Neil 19

    23 October 2015 at 4:57 pm

    Key is a traitor to nz

    [lprent: Why? Moved to OpenMike as being irrelevant to the topic of the post. ]
20. stever 20

    23 October 2015 at 5:39 pm

    🙂

    http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/oct/23/tony-abbott-joins-global-speakers-circuit-as-one-of-worlds-greatest-minds

    I guess JK will be there soon enough too!
    • Kiwiri 20.1

      23 October 2015 at 8:02 pm

      In Abbott’s own wording, he is a “suppository” of knowledge.
      • Grindlebottom 20.1.1

        23 October 2015 at 10:23 pm

        Lol. I thought you were joking:
        http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/13/tony-abbott-gaffe-world-stage

        This is funny:
        http://thesuppositoryofwisdom.com/
21. Logie97 21

    23 October 2015 at 10:01 pm

    Trougher group spending up large on taxpayer as their sense of entitlement.
    Key warns of excessive hotel bills coming up for MPs to be able to get to RWC.
    Mmmmm we’re currently travelling around S.E. England and using Booking.com for our accommodation needs and securing Wonderful double rooms breakfast included for around $200 per night. Car hire is very reasonable so staying in the Home Counties increases accommodation choices.
    How did these people manage to secure tickets in the first place anyway?
22. North 22

    23 October 2015 at 10:15 pm

    “Mr Key goes to London for a live wank over Richie !”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11534171

    Prick never ‘packed down’ in his life. Making up for it with a feast of ‘packing off’ now.

    What a piece of shit. This is Marie Antoinette stuff ! Mind you…..he’s a good man……giving us ‘fair warning’. Yeah Yeah Yeah…..Trev’ from the Herald knows…..she’s probably there too, as per…..where there’s a Key there’s always a Trev’.

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