Open mike 24/11/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 24th, 2024 - 51 comments
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51 comments on “Open mike 24/11/2024 ”

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  1. Ad 1
    24 November 2024 at 10:17 am

    As reported by several others including Reuters, and Richard Harman at Politik,Treasury is forecasting that New Zealand's economy is going to go nowhere fast.

    Treasury will cut its economic and fiscal forecasts because of a sustained productivity slowdown in the economy.

    New Zealand Treasury's May budget forecasts had anticipated a return to economic growth in the second half of 2024, but the latest data suggests the recovery will begin later, Treasury Chief Economic Adviser Dominick Stephens said in a speech.

    "Economic growth has proved slower than anticipated. Weaker economic growth means a smaller economy and less tax revenue, increasing the challenge for the government in balancing its books," Stephens said at the Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand conference in Wellington.

    Any Minister of Finance worth their salt would at least come out and say:

    "Look, we know that 2024 is our largest collapse in heavy manufacturing in 40 years, and unemployment is up, and the tax cuts have done nothing, and those 'business confidence' indicators clearly have zero reality to how much money is being spent in the economy, but we have a plan we really do and things will get better soon."

    Or if not a plan, at least get to the launch of something and go 'but look here!'.

    I do not know why this government is incapable of doing most of its economic leadership job.

  2. Tony Veitch 2
    24 November 2024 at 11:05 am

    I do not know why this government is incapable of doing most of its economic leadership job.

    I do – us Kiwis have been sold the myth that Natz are better at business, while in reality the opposite is true!

    But we can always fall back on the "rock star economy" of high immigration and high real estate prices to pretend that things are getting better!

  3. Patricia Bremner 3
    24 November 2024 at 11:44 am

    So much for these hollow men being better managers than the previous Government.

    Their hubris and remove and stop any previous progress is now coming to bite them.

    The people are driven by lower incomes to shop through cheap Chinese portals and to sell their "Toys and even other assets" as Bankers raise interest rates to try to control the fall out of covid pushing home owners mortgage rates higher.

    Meantime CoC are following their usual austerity path of shrinking the Public purse, and are surprised at the lower tax take.

    Their actions have added to a world wide contraction after the pandemic spend, and these supposed managers have ignored Treasury and general economic advice, spurned the science and even sacked scientists as they are so sure of their "snake oil" medicine.

    We have just had a huge Hikoi. According to Luxon, the Maori Party!! The uncomfortable truth is, there is a swell of dissent from all sides. Even their own.

    Will they listen? Will they what!!! This Government is creating a huge tsunami of disgust and disbelief at their high handed deliberate social engineering of a racial divide by attacking the Treaty, removing all things Maori from Public Service, forcing change on Schools and trained staff for ideological reasons.

    They thought the same failed system would work if it was applied more quickly, and far from being "back on track" we are down a long recession valley, with almost every thinking economist seeing the danger.

    When our mills and Maketu Pies fall into the hole, small communities lose hundreds of jobs, and communities die.

    That is the point. They want needy individuals rather than flourishing communities, so now we have a failed group doing school lunches rather than community building. Regions once again losing services, with large employers retracting or going under.

    Councils are buckling under the debt burden, while electricity is becoming very expensive as modern technology needs copious amounts.

    I am old, and in all my years I have not seen such a pig headed bull dozer approach that ignores the science and advice, says they are uniting us when clearly the opposite is true.

    What to do? What that group did who marched waving to all who gathered to support them. Figure out what we want from the grass roots up, instead of having a "big daddy" and his friends lead us to a finacial crash and societal boot camps.

    Atlas requires no obstacles no community push back and the ability to move in and buy up, and smother our hope of togetherness. so the Treaty is a threat to their plans.

    They use individuals like Duplicity Allan and the Platform and other well known folk like M Hoskins and The Taxpayers Union to spread memes and "'talking points"

    Tacky online acting by our current PM is so embarrassing including his hands on greetings of other Leaders. He has been "hands off" for transgressions by his own, while others were hounded for errors. This all points to a PM with a strange moral compass.

    When he was told people were beginning to question it all, he said "I don't care" That was the truth, "He's sorted".

    Any new government is going to get pieces of a torn society, and have to work very hard to mend the hurt caused by this lot.

    • Macro 3.1
      24 November 2024 at 1:35 pm

      👍👍👍

    • Tony Veitch 3.2
      24 November 2024 at 1:41 pm

      Cashed up people – ie those who support the ACT-led CoC, do well in a recession, as small businesses close and home owners are forced to sell.

      So the CoC is serving its base, who gave millions to have a chance of making a quick buck or three – and to hell with the rest of society, bottom feeders, climate etc.

    • ianmac 3.4
      24 November 2024 at 5:26 pm

      Well said Patricia. Your mind is bigger than mine so thanks for covering so much.

      • Patricia Bremner 3.4.1
        24 November 2024 at 7:37 pm

        I refuse to lose heart ianmac. Luxon is out of his depth, Willis is worse than useless and Seymour and Winston are there for division and utu. (revenge)

        Karma is coming, but we need to rally in support and state what we want clearly at all the forums. I felt hopeful when Chris Hipkins said he went to the Hikoi to listen and learn.

        We need to correct Seymour's lie. Equality is not equity.

        Equality for all assumes we all start the race in the same place, but some have inside running and never agree to a staggered start, so they always get the gold medal. Those doing it hard on the outer lane could get thrown off.

  4. SPC 4
    24 November 2024 at 12:22 pm

    It seems the right wing narrative setting on the "bill before parliament" is in development.

    Not by National Party, but by minions of ACT and NZF men.

    First the conflation of Treaty principles being enunciated in an ongoing way, in legislation and via courts, with a permanent fix set in by a referendum.

    And also conflating the attempt to do this, with a past effort to merely remove principles determined by parliament and or courts (by NZ First – 2005-2008 era). This precedent for it now seeking to remove Treaty references in legislation and diminishing the WT.

    This was presumably of some effort to distract from the questionable utility of making an effort to fix a change without the consent of a Treaty partner, when also without parliamentary support. Thus mere grandstanding for party purposes, thus the boasting that this and they were of the future reality.

    With about as much credibility as a governments planning to direct most of its future investment into roads.

    https://archive.li/iWJb0#selection-4801.0-4890.1https://archive.li/iWJb0#selection-4801.0-4890.1

    The man from Uncle ACT, also played the person of a former PM.

    For mine the term "40 Kings Council" does not indicate he has read much of letters.

    See anyone can do it.

    Yet pronounce of matters of law he did and then even to conclude he is the one who is right. How, by crafting a narrative, one entirely based on his own logic. At least, he admits to being petty.

    To edify, the first principle as per there even being a Treaty, is that there is to be an agreement between 2 parties. Once enacted, there is then a relationship/partnership (as indicated in the Treaty terms). This then involves the basis for a process for continuing engagement and where necessary redress.

    To formalise principles by (popular majority) referendum, obstructs the involvement of future parliaments (after it finally acknowledged it had exercised Crown power in breach of the said Treaty), the Crown relationship with Maori and due process.

    As for

    “All New Zealander’s are equal before the law”

    This is not a government declaring a principle, it is stated in article 3, so clearly a lay person with no letters can read it for themself well enough.

    The rest is just a statement of opposition to the concept of any partnership with the indigenous people of the Treaty, for much the same reasons as fast tracking access to conservation areas, despite damage to the environment and habitat.

    The ACT Atlas network man mindset is to bow down to the muscular power of the authority of money and where there is capacity to resist that, take away the right to do so.

    In oligarchy circles known as "lawyering up"

    Expect to see facts and reason prevail over the noise generated by flag waving and outrage

    Mansplaining – gaslighting the victim who dares protest.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360496033/haka-makes-great-theatre-it-isnt-argument

    • SPC 4.1
      24 November 2024 at 12:42 pm

      Mansplaining – gaslighting the victim who dares protest

      Regional Development Minister Shane Jones remains committed to uplifting provincial New Zealand – and won’t be letting native animals or “screeching voices” get in the way of that.

      There was no moa he would not have eaten, no bird he would not strangle, if he woke up drunk and disorderly, hungry and within reach.

      A man open to doing deals with those of the business class.

      “Climate change in my view, over the last regime, has been turned into a religion and when I want a religious experience, I’ve got other ways of enjoying that.

      He might piss on a forest fire, but only if he had a long enough hose.

      To treat the man with the respect, a man of his talents, deserves.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/minister-shane-jones-on-climate-change-regional-development-and-bringing-back-oil-and-gas-the-front-page/C57TVFYB7ZHKTESZBKVO2TYDVM/

      • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1
        24 November 2024 at 7:04 pm

        Please remember the grass roots has the power. We support the Treaty and will through "Unity" vote CoC out in 2026. Start giving a "cup of coffee" donation to your chosen Party of the Left, and register to vote.

        Don't believe the spin. Like the tax cuts it is "smoke and mirrors". We are stronger together, so talk to your local organisers, start supporting those who are keeping us informed. Read Nick Rockel, Gerard Otto Mountain Tiu and Bernard Hickey. If you know of others who interpret the intent put their names out there, support their work by reading sharing and if you can supporting with a few dollars.

    • joe90 4.2
      24 November 2024 at 12:43 pm

      Damo's facts and reason crowd.

      .

      Seymour said the hīkoi had presented no coherent objection to the Treaty Principles Bill.

      His audience of up to 200 were highly engaged on Māori issues even before Seymour arrived.

      One said Māori were like seagulls: if you feed them "more come – and then they start crapping on you."

      Another said that over the years there'd been a "self-serving reinterpretation of the Treaty to benefit the Māori elite".

      Yet another reckoned that before Pākehā brought colonisation and war Māori "were killing each other anyway".

      There was talk of what percentage of Māori ancestry should count, and an assertion that Prime Minister Christopher Luxon wasn't brave enough to investigate Māori organisations with charity tax status.

      Predominantly aged over 60, the audience's biggest applause during Seymour's speech was for the government cutting 6000 public servant roles.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360497069/david-seymour-wont-bow-down-his-hapu-leaders-over-treaty-bill

      • Tony Veitch 4.2.1
        24 November 2024 at 1:35 pm

        to benefit the Māori elite". Maori elite!

        I do like that phrase! What about the pakeha elite? You know, the 300 families who pay half the tax of ordinary people?

        Or the already wealthy who benefitted most from the farcical tax cuts?

        Or the mega landlords who got given extra cash to buy up mortgagee sales?

  5. Reality 5
    24 November 2024 at 12:31 pm

    Patricia, you have described so well the sad state of NZ after just one year of this government. Their jack boot approach dismantling everything Labour introduced, their lack of empathy towards people, their arrogance, their nastiness – it goes on and on, week after week. I see no sign of light at the end of the tunnel. The economy is not good. Wellington is badly affected by the redundancies. A central cafe I frequent which has always been very busy was nearly empty the last time I was there recently. Nicola's landlords will be worried! No wonder she wants people back in the office. The vibe in the city is not good.

    National and Act were upset at the Haka performed in the debating chamber. Erica Stanford personified what what they should be upset about after calling Jan Tinetti a "stupid bitch". Nastiness oozes off Stanford's face. Emotions can run high but that said more about herself than Tinetti.

  6. tWig 6
    24 November 2024 at 12:43 pm

    Here is an interactive map of buildings and resources destroyed in Gaza, created by research group Forensic Architecture.

    It makes very clear the sytematic destruction of Palestinian resources.

    • joe90 6.1
      24 November 2024 at 1:00 pm

      the sytematic destruction of Palestinian resources.

      They're breaking ground.

      Israeli settler leader Daniella Weiss has said she recently visited northern Gaza to scout locations for future Israeli settlements there.

      During an interview on Channel 13 on Saturday, Weiss said she has the support of 740 families to establish settlements in the Palestinian territory and was hoping to grow support from "one to two million Israelis".

      "Yesterday we were on a tour at a temporary site near the Gaza border, where we set up 40 trailers that we will eventually move into Gaza," she said on the evening news programme.

      "The truth is we are still a few steps away from real estate, but yes, I was in the field," Weiss told the interviewer when he questioned if she entered Gaza after 7 October.

      https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-settler-daniella-weiss-claims-settlement-scouting-visit-gaza

      • SPC 6.1.1
        24 November 2024 at 1:19 pm

        The period of using Hamas to justify the settlement continuance and expansion in the WB is over.

        Now it is, use Hezbollah and Iran to justify permanent occupation of the river to the sea.

        The Gaza gas and the Oct 7 2023 attack, seem to be their lithium/raw earth minerals and baddies in Maruipol (south est Donetsk).

        The settlers will want the coast and far north but the IDF is building its watchtower system first (ring road grid pattern surrounding 3 high rise containment areas – thus checkpoints between the 3) and the Minister of Finance will want areas for reserved for the on shore part of gas field development.

        For those wondering about the how of land without a people, they do not intend to. They are moving to deny the right to vote to citizens with views inimical to Jewish state identity and security (taking away to vote from left/secular Israelis and some Palestinian cause identifying Israeli Arabs – thus near all in Gaza and WB from the get go).

        If this prospect does not motivate the Arab League to work to get Iran to recognise a 67 border two state outcome, then nothing will.

  7. SPC 7
    24 November 2024 at 1:50 pm

    Labour conference in Christchurch this week.

    Shane Te Pou …

    https://archive.li/FKtPB#selection-3997.64-4092.1

    A quibble about his comment on the turnout for Harris. She got a lot more than Clinton.

    Harris got less votes from Latino men and black men than Biden, and they did vote, for Trump – because of the (somewhat specious) claim it was better before 2020 and would be after 2024 (yet wages rose faster than prices 2020-2024).

    The vote count was down 4M on the 2020 record turnout (when voting was made easier).

    As per Pennsylvania – the GOP increased the number registered in 2020 by 300,000 (targeting those who did not vote, registering them and helping them with the process).

    Michigan was a state apart because of its large Moslem and Palestinian population.

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/cpsprodpb/aa84/live/4cc89a80-a8ef-11ef-a4fe-a3e9a6c5d640.png.webp

    • Binders full of women 7.1
      24 November 2024 at 2:19 pm

      But I agree with him that Harris offered few policies. Yet $1bn was spent (wasted?) On the Dem campaign…3 x Trump

  9. SPC 9
    24 November 2024 at 2:43 pm

    AUKUS was first declared on Sept 15 2021

    It came into force on Feb 8 2022.

    The invasion of Ukraine was February 24 2022.

    US Intelligence got it right but …

    https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-vladimir-putin-business-europe-8acc2106b95554429e93dfee5e253743

  10. mikesh 10
    24 November 2024 at 3:18 pm

    Apart from Ukraine, which is not part of Europe anyway (though it would like to be), how is Russia attacking Europe?

    • satty 10.1
      24 November 2024 at 4:00 pm

      mikesh, there was an article on the Guardian on Russia’s war on Europe yesterday. It’s a bit vague, because it’s mostly undercover operations…

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/23/the-ukraine-missile-crisis-putins-shadow-war-against-the-west-finally-breaks-cover

    • Obtrectator 10.2
      24 November 2024 at 4:37 pm

      Ukraine is most definitely part of Europe, as is all the part of Russia lying to the west of the Ural mountains.

      • Barfly 10.2.1
        24 November 2024 at 4:55 pm

        yes Thankyou

      • mikesh 10.2.2
        24 November 2024 at 6:14 pm

        Russia is separated from Europe by the Black Sea, as are other countries East of it, including Ukraine . It is also separate ethnically, Slavic as opposed to Germanic; liguistically, the Slavic group of languages as opposed to the Romance or Germanic groups; and religiously, Orthodox as opposed to Roman (and derivatives). Russia is not a member of either the EU or NATO, though I understand she has attempted to join both organisations at different times.

        She is separate historically as well. The east has always been considered different since the days of Graeco-Persian wars.

        • bwaghorn 10.2.2.1
          24 November 2024 at 7:19 pm

          Yeah , sounds like a good reason to go on killing each other for another few thousand years!!

          • mikesh 10.2.2.1.1
            25 November 2024 at 5:09 pm

            Yeah , sounds like a good reason to go on killing each other for another few thousand years!!

            Your words, not mine. I rather it's time the two sides got together and made up their minds to share peacefully the continent that both inhabit. Russia seems to think so, Ukraine doesn't, and Europe is just paranoid.

        • SPC 10.2.2.2
          24 November 2024 at 7:20 pm

          AI Overview

          The Ural Mountains are the traditional line that divides Russia into European Russia and the Asian part of the Russian Federation

          North Asia

          Some international organizations consider North Asia to be part of Eastern Europe because of its colonization by Russia. The region is predominantly influenced by Russian culture, and most of its population is of European descent.

          Siberia

          Geographically, Siberia is part of Asia, but it's considered European culturally and politically because it's part of Russia.

          When did you last look at a map … most of Russia is north of the Black Sea.

          And no part of Ukraine is to the east of the Black Sea.

          https://cdn.britannica.com/82/183782-050-D2CE9388/World-Data-Locator-Map-Ukraine.jpg

          Europe is separate from Anatolia because of some water … and thus is Asia Minor. East of the Black Sea is south Russia and the Caucasus.

          Nations do not stop being part of Eastern Europe, or Asia, because of their language or religion. Iran and India are part of Asia regardless of their Indo-European/Aryan languages.

          • mikesh 10.2.2.2.1
            25 November 2024 at 5:29 pm

            And no part of Ukraine is to the east of the Black Sea.

            The dividing line between East and West seems to run through both Ukraine and the Black Sea: at least as far as ethnic and political groups are concerned.

        • joe90 10.2.2.3
          24 November 2024 at 7:21 pm

          Russia is separated from Europe by the Black Sea

          Russia is the victims of Tsarist and Soviet Russia's imperialism are separated from Europe by the Black Sea

          fify

          • mikesh 10.2.2.3.1
            25 November 2024 at 5:21 pm

            It was only Crimea, at one time part of the Khan empire, that was a victim of Tsarist imperialism (about 300 years ago). Russian Ukraine, which I think did not always include the whole of Ukraine, came about through a treaty between the Cossacks and Muscovy (Russia).

            The Warsaw pact seems to have come about as a side effect of Russia defending itself against the Nazies in WW2.

            • observer 10.2.2.3.1.1
              25 November 2024 at 5:36 pm

              But Ukraine is not in Asia. Not one authority (international organisation, scholar, reference book, anybody at all) has Ukraine in Asia. Literally nobody.

              Therefore it is in Europe.

              Geography lesson ends.

              • mikesh …
                26 November 2024 at 4:19 pm

                But Ukraine is not in Asia. Not one authority (international organisation, scholar, reference book, anybody at all) has Ukraine in Asia. Literally nobody.

                Therefore it is in Europe.

                Your syllogism is invalid. It doesn't follow that if Ukraine is not in Asia it must be in Europe. It may be in neither. It may lie between the two (not that it matters much). Historically, however, it has been part of the Eastern block since Tsarist times.

                When Yeltsin granted Ukraine independence in the early nineties he pointed out that here was a longstanding border dispute, but hinted that Russia would not pursue providing Ukraine remained in the Eastern block.

  11. SPC 11
    24 November 2024 at 4:54 pm

    The Red team is apparently facing the merger of X/Truth Social – most likely Musk buying out the company, neither makes a profit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/nov/17/bluesky-musk-trump-x-twitter-authoritarian-world

    Bluesky, like a dream of rescue, from a Trump presidency.

  12. joe90 12
    24 November 2024 at 6:52 pm

    Wee Davy v almost everyone.

    .

    @LewSOS

    David Seymour vs the All Blacks

    […]

    @LewSOS

    David Seymour vs the All Blacks is just the most recent example in a series that illustrates how far out on a limb David Seymour is. Here's a non-exhaustive selection in a thread Here's David Seymour vs Christianity

    https://xcancel.com/LewSOS/status/1860506372267450375

    • Patricia Bremner 12.1
      24 November 2024 at 7:49 pm

      Seymour is inserting himself in a game of rugby with a righteous attitude of "you are wrong and why can't you see I'm right? It is as if he thinks he is akin to Moses bringing the stone tablet with the 10 commandments." This is indicative of a problem imo

  13. adam 13
    24 November 2024 at 7:54 pm

    Meanwhile in the real world.

    God bless the Aussie protestors.

  14. joe90 14
    24 November 2024 at 7:54 pm

    Bring back the halls.

    .

    What I propose is that liberals and the left organize those who can be organized, and then direct those grassroots foot soldiers toward the goal of establishing a larger social formation: one that has a low barrier to entry but that is also connected by longer-lasting bonds than GOTV.

    […]

    Any organization that seeks to replace the Democratic-leaning Elks Lodge in American public life needs to look more like an Elks Lodge than a DSA meeting. With that in mind, my proposal is that the Democratic Party, along with other liberal and left-leaning organizations, should fund the creation of community centers in priority voting precincts. These centers would be managed by a combination of local volunteers and paid staff who are hired directly from the surrounding community.

    https://resnikoff.beehiiv.com/p/the-party-should-throw-them-a-party