Open mike 24/05/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:55 am, May 24th, 2014 - 115 comments
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115 comments on “Open mike 24/05/2014”

  1. did anyone else go to ‘the spirit level’ lectures in ak this week..?


    ..and i wd urge those in regions south.. go and have defined for themselves..

    ..what actually needs to be done..

    ..(when they come to your town..1200 in ak is the target to beat..c’mon..! know you can see off the

    ..i’m looking @ you..wellington..) made by the authors..(to 1200 people in ak last nite..)..

    ..the case could not be clearer..

    ..(that was my takeaway..)

    (..another sub-takeaway was the pointed comment from one of the authors..

    ..that the evidence clearly shows the last labour govt did virtually nothing to lessen the inequalites engendered by the rightwing-revolution/attack on the welfare state in the 1980’s..

    ..started by labour..and enthusiastically carried on by national..

    ..let’s hope they take all that blinding-evidence on board..

    ..and do better next time..

    • apropos of not much.. 16 yr old dog..(her name is lucy..) lying on her foam squab…just behind me..(within arms’ reach..)..

      ..she is covered by her ‘banky’..and has her head resting on her pillow..

      ..and she is wagging her tail.. i drop pieces of toast smeared with peanut butter and jam – into her mouth..

      ..(it’s a thing we do..and that all cheers me no end..)

  2. karol 3

    Armstrong praisies Labour & Cunliffe – sort of – as ong as they look like National Lite, and don’t, you know, return to its roots, advocate for the poor and struggling Kiwis. Cause according to Armstrong, there is no problem for those on low incomes.

    • ianmac 3.1

      A bit of a twist from Mr Armstrong. There is a positive mood shift. The announcement of Opposition Policies can now go ahead post-Budget and leaves National less time to counter any positive feedback that comes from those policies.

      • karol 3.1.1

        The nats will also be talking up anti-Muslim rhetoric.

        An old guy at a bus stop recently rambled on to me about the carelessness of young people today (litter in the streets). He then kind of back tracked and said his generation got criticised a lot by older people. then he said something about the hard times that are coming. I thought he was going to say something about an economic crash, and/or climate change. So I said, “Really?”. He then launched into a bit of a rant about the reports he’d read of conflict in an Avondale mosque, and how “those people” shouldn’t bring their fights to NZ.

        • Populuxe1

          First of all, do you mean anti-Muslim rhetoric in the sense of al-Qaeda etc, or anti-Muslim rhetoric against Muslim NZ citizens? I doubt they would the latter because there would be nothing to gained from it, and if you had regular contact with the NZ Muslim community you would soon find that, having minds of their own, and depending on whether they are Shia or Sunna, and depending on their country of origin, may very well agree with the newspaper article.

          The author of the Daily piece seems to have an axe to grind with the NZMA that goes well beyond this single event.

          Also I fail to see how desiring to keep foreign sectarian conflict out of New Zealand is in any way racist, prejudiced or even bad. It would be naive in the extreme to ignore what has happened in countries even more liberal than ours like Sweden and the Netherlands.

          • karol

            Well, it can often be hard to tell whether media beatups about (alleged) Muslim Jihads are motivated by Islamaphobia, but it does feed into fairly widely spread Islamophobia discourse.

            The guy I talked to at the bus stop was explicitly anti-Islam.

            Martyn Bradbury also has included in his post today, repsonses from someone else from the Muslim community. It certainly shows that there is a pretty one-sided view being presented in the MSM.

            • Populuxe1

              Yes, that was the story I mentioned before which you had already posted. The author appears to have an agenda against the NZMA.
              I doubt xenophobic old coots are indicative of much – they’ve been around forever.

  3. joe90 4


    . The present dominant affect of anxiety is also known as precarity. Precarity is a type of insecurity which treats people as disposable so as to impose control. Precarity differs from misery in that the necessities of life are not simply absent. They are available, but withheld conditionally.

    • ianmac 4.1

      For many young job-starters the lack of job security and unclear future careers must contribute to this precarity. Being on contracts where you only work when the manager needs you in the unholy name of “flexibility” must hurt.

      • aerobubble 4.1.1

        Hooton believes that we only work well if scared. Well, that’s of course depends, if we are already wealthy then we do best being over paid. And if anyone says otherwise they are mean, raging, envious, and hate filled. So speaks the pure petulant voice of the right.

    • karol 4.2

      Thanks. It’s thought provoking, and I tend to agree with the basic premis: that capitalism stimulates resisistance, then capitalism reacts to neutralise the resistance…. then a new form of resistance forms.

      However, I think the periodised labels for each phase of resistance is pretty superficial – and US-based. Bored people in the 60s, tended to be amongst the more middle classes – and white and male. As they also state, there was always anxiety around sexuality – well that would include most women, and anyone who didn’t conform to sexual norms.

      Anxiety now, would be more likely to be those in the middle incomes/wealth brackets – the most precarious have lives of daily struggle.

      • RedLogix 4.2.1

        I agree karol – and thanks joe for the fabulous linky love as always.

        I’m off to have a long read of that entire planc site. At first glance it’s the most intriuguing thing I’ve seen in ages.

    • just saying 4.3

      Thanks Joe90

      For ages I’ve been trying to put into words what is going wrong with trying to taking any kind of group action – the paralysis of the current age that he describes and the reasons for it. His analysis of this state and how we find ourselves here is an outstanding overview.

      The only collective action that I’ve been involved in that hasn’t been seriously infected with it has been something I’ve been doing with a group of very well off middle-class people who are mostly a long way off precarious compared to people like me (though of course they are affected, just not infected). I’ve felt such a sense of frustration at this project powering ahead while just about every other collective action I’ve tried has floundered or limped meekly along without achieving anything much beyond just continuing to exist. Treading water, yet important causes and outstanding people rendered powerless.

      edit: Embarrassed by my unthinking sexism in ascribing the article a male writer.

  4. TeWhareWhero 5

    On Kim Hill’s Saturday Morning show today Harriet Sergeant was pontificating about the significance of the UKIP vote in local government elections in Britain. It made me feel ill – the more so because of the sycophantic way Hill treated this rightwing ideologue.

    On the RNZ website Sergeant’s self description from her website was reproduced verbatim –

    “a journalist, author and Research Fellow of the Centre for Policy Studies, an independent Think Tank…”

    Instead of simply repeating Sergeant’s self-description, they should have mentioned that the Centre for Policy Studies is a right wing, neoliberal policy think tank which claims to be non-partisan but which has strong historical links to the British Conservative Party.

    Unless, of course, Hill was deliberately trying to present a well known rightwing ideologue as a politically neutral researcher/commentator.

    I emailed RNZ about this and it was not read out but Hill did mention the fact that the CPS has historical links to the Tory Party – having been set up by Thatcher.

    Acknowledgement of having been caught out on sloppy research at best and political bias at worst would have been good but at least the record was set straight to some extent.

    • Paul 5.1

      They do this the whole time.
      Farrar is never described as a National Party pollster.

    • Bearded Git 5.2

      Yes TWW I too thought that the fact that she was from a right wing think tank should have been made clear, though that became obvious when she gave her analysis.

      She lumped Milliband in with Cameron and Clegg, where in fact he is not a public school toff like them but went to a comprehensive.

      I also hated the way she dished public education in the UK (snotty), and the way she made out Farage, a right-wing populist, was a good guy. Show me the policies Farage.

      She also failed to mention that if these poll results were replicated next year Labour would be likely to get elected without the need for a coalition partner. Like the rest of the Tory press she had written her analysis before Labour’s good results in London came in.

      • The Al1en 5.2.1

        Was pleased to see Hammersmith and Fulham won back from the tories, the 11 seats won taking them to a 26 – 20 majority.
        Now at least I have something to cheer about Fulham this year.

        • Bearded Git

          Yes TA great result in H and F-a Tory flagship council.

          As a Burnley fan you will appreciate I’m cheering on two counts.

          • The Al1en

            Cameron’s favourite, so I read. Can Imagine a few being sunk tonight on the broadways.

            Enjoy the ride, ours got us a few minutes away from a penalty shoot out for the ueffa cup, and rid of that bizarre MJ statue.
            I don’t care too much, just as long as Derby beat QPR. Looking forward to an easy six pointer next term 😉

    • aerobubble 5.3

      Its common place to see moderate progressives of the left matched with right-wing revolutionary conservative types who peddle the extremism which their opponents have not the time or language to deconstruct. When growth was assured (cheap energy trending lower) the right got more extreme and stupid. It was easy living for parasites, to argue for more nothing and claim victory when achieved, and so much work kicking the poor, unions, communities.

      We will have high taxes on the rich again, since we cannot afford to leave people in precarity where their time is spent getting by rather than growing the economy.

    • Molly 5.4

      Similar story with the discussion on surgical mesh a couple of days ago – on Radio NZ.

      The rebuttal to the surgeon who is dealing with women who are facing ongoing and debilitating issues, was “Associate Professor Malcolm Frazer – The urogynaecology spokesperson for the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and the immediate past vice chair of the Urogynaecological Society of Australasia.”

      No mention of the fact that he derives income from other sources such as:
      “Declaration of interest
      Malcolm Frazer holds contracts as a preceptor for Johnson & Johnson Gynecare as well as American Medical Systems mesh products for which he receives a fee. He has received financial support from both organisations to attend scientific conferences as an invited lecturer.”

      This declaration of interest can be found on one of his articles on the benefits of surgical mesh that he continues to write, and get income from the company that is undergoing a class action suit.

      That would provide clarity to the discussion. I haven’t listened to the whole interview, but understand that National Women’s have stopped using this mesh because of the complications, and are keeping on the QT. ACC is continuing to refuse payment and treatment to those who have had complications from these mesh implants.

    • Populuxe1 5.5

      Dammit yes, she should have thrown tea cakes at him and set fire to herself in protest

  5. freedom 6

    Seems the NZH only told one side of the story and it appears they even got that wrong

    In reference to the latest sensationalist article in the NZ Herald, no one declared ‘jihad’ at the security guard. What actually happened is that the security guard was smoking inside (which is against the law) and walking in the mosque with shoes on, something that is unacceptable in a mosque (similar to a marae). When someone told him that he shouldn’t be doing that, the security guard made up a story about threats of jihad to take attention away from him disrespecting the mosque

  6. Paul 7

    This will be a litmus test of NZ’s clean green credentials.

  7. moroney seems to have just confirmed that labour will be doing nothing for many of the poorest..

    ..when asked specifically..

    ..she said that labour would give benificiary-families the $60 p.w tax credit..

    ..and raise minimum-wage to $15..

    ..nothing for the poorest/homeless/single unemployed..


    ..and for the very first time.. i had to agree with a part of a sentence from e.t.-impersonter colin craig..

    ..when he advocated tax cuts for the poorest..

    .(.to end the bizarre ritual of taxing the unemployment-benefit..for starters..w.t.f. is the/any logic in that ..?.. taxing benefits for what it is..

    ..cutting benefits..)

    ..moroney shied away from that idea like a startled-horse..

    • The Al1en 8.1

      Meanwhile, as the Immigration Service ordered the deportation of all four nannies employed to look after the couple’s five children, dotcon says “”The nannies are crying. They are completely destroyed,”

      Why did kim not employ NZ nannies? Maybe hone can help find some kiwi staff for the mega mansion as part of the keep it New Zealand campaign. That would be great move to reduce unemployment and show his coalition partner has a handle on poverty in his adopted (for a little bit longer at least) country.

      • millsy 8.1.1

        Or why not look after their own kids instead of paying someone else to bring them up.

        Child neglect is common at both ends of town from the looks of it.

        • ianmac

          I think that the twins are autistic so they need extra care which is what less wealthy parents of autistic would desperately need and wish for.

        • The Al1en

          “Or why not look after their own kids instead of paying someone else to bring them up.”

          Indeed, or better still, government makes it an option to pay one parent to stay at home to raise babies while the other works.

          “I think that the twins are autistic so they need extra care which is what less wealthy parents of autistic would desperately need and wish for.”

          Sad indictment on this country if we don’t have suitably qualified staff to do that good work.
          And right, less well off parents could do with the help. Hope the next government will grant the wish.

      • Populuxe1 8.1.2

        They were probably crying because he pays shit

      • marty mars 8.1.3

        “Why did kim not employ NZ nannies?”

        My gods you sound bitter allen – got your wee jibes into Hone and Mana as well as Kim. How is your status here different to his?

        • Populuxe1

          It’s a fair point. Why import foreign labour to do what local labour is more than capable of doing?

          • marty mars

            You don’t know that “local labour is more than capable of doing” the role at all – you just suppose it – for instance we (generally) only know one language (english) here – could it be that they may have wanted a german speaking nanny? I don’t know but i’d allow for the possibility, certainly before adding this tidbit to the stack of ammunition used to attack dotcom, Hone and Mana.

            I also think that many kiwi nannies around the world wouldn’t be too fussed with your foreign labour angle.

        • The Al1en

          Hello Marty

          No, not bitter, more a black comedy observation on the mismatch in interests here. Only nanny I ever knew was Mary Poppins and my nan, who in fact introduced me to her one Saturday movie matinee afternoon back in the early 70s.

          As for my status, I don’t know for sure. I’ll cheer anything with a lion or a rose on it, but most of the time I’ve assimilated quite well. I bred with a local woman and got married and had a child born here, who holds a NZ passport in her name, just like her mother, her grandmother and her great grandmother.
          Mostly I consider myself, after 13 years on the good waka Aotearoa as one of the crew, but sometimes it’s not just the flow of the ocean lapping at the hull where I find resistance.
          Legally, my 10 year passport with my permanent residency silver dollar stickers ran out 4 years ago, I found out I was a shoe in for citizenship, and though a little affronted at not only being asked to pay near 5 hundy membership fee, despite 14 years of A ok service and going 50% in a fantastic little kiwi chick, I’m comfortable in the knowledge I didn’t sink 50 grand into Bank’s campaign fund after hearing from the horses mouth it was to keep it secret and anonymous, or if believed, 200k, I didn’t get it because I needed a little red box audio interface box of magic (though sadly it hasn’t made my cathatic musical musings any easier to listen to).

          As for Hone, I mean him no ill, and though I’m no politician, robust debate should come as nothing new to him. He even built his career on it, so no harm done. That’s why I’, not bothered by the bitter thing. I wouldn’t read that much into it.
          Happy to concede it could be the delivery and style.

          You’re all good, Mars, eh. See, even talking like you lot now, though you’ll have to imagine it coming in a less put on Michael Caine sort of way).

          • marty mars

            Well I for one am pleased you are here adding your bit to the cause.

            I probably am oversensitive with the comedy – my father was english and, well, to be truthful, we didn’t get on very well – coloured me rotten that did, tainted me.

            • The Al1en

              Half lion heart, that’ll account for the being up for it bit 😆

              Wrong person to speak to about tainted as I’m quite sure there are a few who’s opinion on my place of birth has altered for the negative through meeting me and not always with justification, but then that could say more about them than I. I’m too busy paddling and keeping one eye on the bailing bucket not the life raft to take it all to heart.

              • lol perhaps it does account for me being an obnoxious, argumentative bastard sometimes, perhaps not – we are all made up of many strands of whakapapa, many connections and that is common to every single one of us on this planet (not counting aliens of course)

      • Murray Olsen 8.1.4

        If you really want to know why they didn’t employ NZ nannies, why not send him an email and ask? There could be any number of reasons.

        I also don’t think that Hone acting as an employment agency for the mansion would do much at all to reduce unemployment. Did you make this stuff up yourself, or get it from WhaleSpew?

        • The Al1en

          Thought of it myself and sadsack’s opinions have never interested me one bit. If anything I should be accused of envy politics about how money buys hired help while those without have sod all, and that’s hardly wo material.

          Like stated, a black comedy observation on the bizarre nature of the political union.
          And in an opinion dedicated forum of my peers. How dare I? lol

    • Skinny 8.2

      Hey Phil don’t judge Sue Morony by 5 minutes on the Nation, she is not the enemy my friend.

      Compared to most of the LP MP’s, Sue has the lowest income earners firmly in mind. I’ve known her since we were in our early 20’s when she was fighting the fight as a young Union organiser. She has never faultered from that fight, not once. I credit Moroney for unseating Shearer as Leader and fighting to get Labour back Left. First you have to gain power to make the nessasary social changes. Like many I detest the ‘middle vote rhetoric’ however it’s all about mopping up soft votes. There is enough dog whistling to the low income group from Labour to attract the vote. Remember Matt McCarten is ‘monitoring the noise level.’

      You sit back and relax as you do, the Red Dragon is steady on a Left course. Let us do the hard work and you reap the rewards of our hard toil.

      • phillip ure 8.2.1

        @ skinny..

        ..i am not attacking moroney..

        ..i am just expressing my dismay at no clear policies from labour to help the worst off..

        ..(and i am aware of moroneys’ placement in the ideological-rainbow that is labour..)

        ..and y’know..’once bitten etc..’ the last labour govt..they promised to end neo-liberalism to get elected..then did nothing..’know..! concerns do have some grounding in fact/

        ..and i am just pointing out that there is a vacuum there..

        ..and with mana/internet party offering concrete-policies to deal to inequality/the gross-poverty-stricken society we have become..since that rightwing-revolution in the 80’s..

        .it is to them those missing-million voters will turn.. a mana voter..suits me..

        ..but i have my commentary-hat on when i warn you of this..

        • bad12

          Pity Brendon Who’s insipid smoking gun used against Winston this week was so lacking in substance ae Phillip, if there was a knotted noose evident anywhere in Brendon Who’s allegations we might have seen a repetition of 2008 for NZFirst which would have clarified ‘options’ greatly,

          Specially If as i suspect, an alliance of Mana/Internet would produce a resultant 3–4% of the party vote for that entity…

        • Skinny

          Fair enough Phil. The problem is many Lefties like yourself and I turned off Labour in disgust, dating back to the treachery of Douglas & Prebble. It allowed the Right within the party to hold sway, reflected in their candidate/MP selections. The bottom straw was Goff taking the leadership, I walked in protest (after 4 years) and only came back after his dismissal. I realise you can only make change from within.

          Referring to Mana, I believe they are about to make a huge mistake by aligning with The Inernet Party. Dotcom isstarting to look like the shady character that he is, and lets face it had he not got busted he would probably have been quite happy to be donating to the ACT party.

          How do you defend a man who in a recent interview has the opinion that Government needs ‘less regulations.’ Now how can a political party like Mana entertain forming any arrangement with a Party that’s founder his this neo-liberal ideology.

          Bradford has understandably balked at any suggestion of joining forces. What the heck is Minto thinking? And you for that matter? Hone having got to know him is a alpha male type fuckwit who I can see getting rolled by Kelvin Davis if the merger happens? Outside of Bradford, Annette Sykes I have a fair bit of time for, however she is weak by not fronting the their alpha ape Leader. Sykes has a great chance of unseating Favell, however Labour look like fucking that up by throat slitting the candidate vote. The Left fail to grasp howto play MMP, or should I say refuse to bend and work as a team.

          • phillip ure

            working backwards..

            “..The Left fail to grasp howto play MMP, or should I say refuse to bend and work as a team..”

            i agree..

            “..Now how can a political party like Mana entertain forming any arrangement with a Party that’s founder his this neo-liberal ideology..”

            ..i understand that mana has no problems with the internet party policies..

   they can’t be that ‘neo-iberal’..

            “..Bradford has understandably balked at any suggestion of joining forces..”

            an aspect of bradfords’ objections puzzles me..(in fact i have never heard/seen her actual objections detailed..)

   that she was part of the alliance..a ,mix of 5 parties..including social credit..

   to that..this hook-up looks simple..

            ..and i don’t agree with yr ‘mistake’

            ..and i made a prediction this morning..and the reasons for..


            • Skinny

              Interesting read Phil, 10% way out there on that one. 2.5% is a good result 3% outstanding.

              • skinny..they are getting that result now..

                ..before the campaigning has even started…

       can’t see a good..nay..inspirational..campaign..

                ..(aimed at those non-voters/missing million voters..)

                ..piling 5% on top of that..?

                ..i can..

            • karol

              Really, phil? You haven’t looked very far if you haven’t seen/heard Sue Bradford state her objections.

              And I’m with Bradford on being wary of the Internet Party – which is pretty much KDC’s baby. I need more than a few election-focused policies. I would need to see how the party operates if they gets any MPs.

              My vote will go to the Greens – I have more of an idea of what I’m getting, and more info about the consistency of their underlying values – such values will inform how any MP operates when they are faced with new situations once in government.

              This is my choice, others may make a different choice.

              • @ karol..

                ..i read yr link..

                ..and i am still left with the question..

                ..what are the logical/rational reasons why mana and internet parties should not do an alliance-lite deal to fight this election..?

                ..all i can see is that he is rich..has a criminal record from when young..

                ..that he gave banks some money..

                ..and i am surprised that bradford cannot see the possibilty of the internet party standing alone..getting..say..4.5% of the vote..

                ..and if that happened..those anti-govt votes would be wasted..

                ..i am puzzled that bradford cannot see this:..


                • karol

                  Bradford has string left principles – it’s not about getting votes by compromising on principles.

                  Bradford has also said that it takes longer to build a movement – as she sees Mana – not just as a party. She has said something about linking to the Internet Party as a short cut that, ultimately will not help build a strong movement.

                  I am surprised you cannot see the potential problems of being linked with the Internet Party if they don’t support left wing policies once in the House; that you can’t see the concerns about linking with a pretty unknown quantity politically.

                  But, whatever – I prefer to go with those with a track record that I feel I can trust.

                  • “..Bradford has also said that it takes longer to build a movement ..”


                    it’s been how many years..?

                    ..and the /movement’ wasn’t even registering 1% support..

                    ..i feel the urgencies to fix what is broken/get rid of these rightwing bastards..

                    .. is more important than an individuals niceties about how it ‘should’ be done..

                    ..especially when that way has been so glacial in growth/outcomes..

                    ..we don’t have the luxury of that time to wait..

                    ..seriously..!..i see no rational thought/logic in that argument..

                    ..’tis a nonsense..

                    ..i joined the mana party when it first started..because i saw the mana party as the best vehicle for the changes i want to see..

                    ..i don’t want mana to be one percent..or less..

                    ..i want them in parliament..kicking arse..

          • marty mars

            “by not fronting the their alpha ape Leader”

            What does that mean? – because it sounds quite offensive to me and if my interpretation is correct then you can get fucked you pretend-insider arsehole but I could have it wrong and if so then all the words after ‘because’ can be disregarded.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.3

      (.to end the bizarre ritual of taxing the unemployment-benefit..for starters..w.t.f. is the/any logic in that ..?..

      No, there’s no logic in it but if you take that to it’s logical end then there’s no point in taxing any government employees income.

    • millsy 8.4

      Tax cuts would do a fat load of good for those on low incomes. A lot less then a wage hike would be for? Plus it will leave less for things like health and education.

      And does Craig really favour cutting the MW?

      • phillip ure 8.4.1

        what can you mean..?

        ..a tax-free threshold of..say..$15-$20, part of a multi-faceted ending-poverty program of legislation..

        ..will most certainly ‘help those on low incomes’..

        ..and how to pay for it..?

        ..for starters..treasury did research that showed that a small financial transaction tax on inter-bank interactions..

        ..would raise enough money to be able to do away with gst altogether.. i said..’for starters’..’s all just a matter of changed/different priorities..

  8. an episode of tv so bad it sets a new benchmark..

    ..the guy from the civilian..and gower..trying to do a comedy-routine.. is gobsmackingly awful…

  9. ‘hoots’ hooten sets his own new benchmark..

    ..after scoffing at/scorning any calls to end inequality..

    ..he pleads ‘to end the inequality of our companies paying a higher corporate tax than norway’..(!)

    ..(he seemed quite sincere..quivering lower-lip and all..

    ..he had me reaching for the tissues..on this/heir behalf..)’

  10. Armed only with their bodily fluids, members of a rack Public Films commando unit attacked and successfully desecrated a right-wing monument in South Auckland yesterday:

  11. bad12 12

    The Moot:

    ”My major claims are that 10% of those who have or do use tobacco products and have a Lung Cancer at any time is not a reliable statistic which shows cause and effect when 90% of the users of the same product never have a Lung Cancer at any time”,


    ”IF 50% of those who have ever used tobacco products will die of either Cancer or Heart Disease, SO WHAT, even treated in the most kind manner the statistics show that 49% of people who have never used tobacco products will also die of a Cancer or Heart disease”,

    The reply to the Moot:

    ”As i said, you’ve got no fucken evidence to refute decades of evidence from the actual people who know what they’re talking about”,

    Now that is what i call a really compelling argument that 90% of those who have ever used tobacco products WILL NOT develop Lung Cancer therefor using tobacco products is the cause of 10% of such users developing Lung Cancer,

    An unsustainable suspect ‘statistic i would suggest, and as for have ‘No evidence’, Pfft, theres this,

    ”The Welcome Trust Sanger Institutes cancer genome project is lead jointly by Professor Mike Stratton and Dr Peter Campbell”,

    ”All cancers occur due to abnormalities in the DNA sequence. Cancer affects people at all ages with risks for most cancer types increasing with age”

    That to me simply says that the 10% those who develop Lung Cancer and have smoked have a specific genetic anomaly and the 90% who have smoked and never develop a Lung Cancer do not have that same genetic anomaly,

    The proof of my little assertion there will be when the studies of the genome become advanced enough where they compare the genome of smokers who did not develop Lung Cancer with those that did,(i have yet to come across such a study but such research is still in its infancy),

    Cancers occur when mistakes occur in cell replication at a genetic level, across all cancers, smokers/never smoked there is one point 60–70 years of age that is the commonality,

    Contrary views are that as industrialized tobacco production and therefor higher rates of tobacco use occurred in the previous century rates of all cancers increased does not explain the increase in the rates of cancer for those who never smoked whereas the age at which we live to also increased during the latter part of the previous century,

    In the future genetic science will identify exactly which gene(s) are at the center of the mistakes in cell reproduction which produce cancers and hopefully find a means of stopping those mistakes occurring…

    • well..that’s me convinced..!

      ..i’m off to buy a packet of marlboro..and an ashtray..

      • bad12 12.1.1

        According to the Dr Tashkin you linked us all to last week Phillip, your dope smoking has you well on the way to developing cancerous growths in your airways,

        No need to switch to the ciggies my friend, just roll another spliff…

  12. Clemgeopin 13

    The Nation on TV3 today had a very good segment on Inequality fronted by the authors of the Spirit level. They are well spoken, fair and intelligent experts on the subject, in contrast to the ‘critic’ in the panel, Hooton, who pretends to be some sort of expert on everything with his pretty useless low level comments. Boring and completely biased commentator. Waste of time trying to listen to his ‘expert’ views!

    • aerobubble 13.1

      Indeed. I mean the idea that CEO’s would notice some slashing to their incomes would effect
      them, but their employees who could be paid more would not notice, was totally missed on him.
      Despite being the whole point of inequality at its heart. Hooton is a very smart moron.

    • Skinny 13.2

      Hooton was totally shown up on the subject, and it showed by his usual ‘selective narrative’ I laughed as the interviewer/host quickly shot poor old ‘snake oil’ salesman Matthew down over his 20% company tax claim.

      The highlight was the Hosts introduction of Hooton ‘former National Party staffer’ oh did you see Hooton wince, such pain being described as a ‘has been.’

      I bet poor old Matty is currently sitting at a bar alone in Ponsonby Rd, on the sauce half sozzled by now, after making a nuisance of himself drunkenly rambling of better days gone by when he use to be someone within National.

  13. aerobubble 14

    So what does inequality look like? Well the richest
    would be able to pay their taxes, who pay more of the
    tax base as inequality grows. Housing would become
    scarce as the poorest couldn’t afford new houses
    (leave for OZ, live more to a home, rent in decaying homes), demand
    for decades would fall, and housing prices would rise
    further pushing more people out.

    Of course, no inequality in NZ say Key.

    • yeshe 14.1

      Let’s understand The Rich do not pay taxes, not the way trusts are set up in NZ. One of the highest on the Rich List is wont to boast he owns nothing, earns nothing … all safely taken care of by Queen Street accountants in family trusts. I think it is the greatest rort of them all, and should be challenged and changed.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1


      • ianmac 14.1.2

        Exactly yeshe! I bet a dollar that in spite of being very rich John Key would pay minimal tax. A wage/salary earner cannot avoid but Trusts of the wealthy hide billions.

  14. Tracey 15

    crosby textors tactics against an nz milk brand revealled today by a whistleblower. stuff article very clearly states key and national use and have close links with crosby textor.

    read online at stuff

    • karol 15.1


      The links between Key National and Crosby Textor or have been in the public domain for a long time, and owned by key & National.

      Evidence of this particular campaign is new – and it also reveals something of CT’s strategies.

      Also written about in Aussie’s The Age.

      Edit: BTW, that article says Phillip Morris is one of the corporates that helps pay C-T’s bills. Apparently advising political parties doesn’t bring much money for them.

      • yeshe 15.1.1

        Karol .. the CT/Phillip Morris link might explain the sudden emergence of those new Nat candidates freshly stinking from the smoking lobby.

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.2

        Edit: BTW, that article says Phillip Morris is one of the corporates that helps pay C-T’s bills. Apparently advising political parties doesn’t bring much money directly for them.

        Just for accuracy.

        A strong Tory neoliberal government will always lead to a more permissive environment for corporates and the 1% i.e. the CT client base.

        Thus CT will be very busy advising corporates on how to effectively lobby government, lobby political parties and lobby MPs. In such activities CT can therefore also truthfully claim that they ‘don’t advise political parties very much.’

        It’s just more sophistry and spin of course.

        • Tracey

          didnt a well known professional lobbyist hautily write recently he doesnt work for political parties… as if stating he doesnt influence politics.

          • Colonial Viper

            It’s like a parallel universe where these people think they are so smart and that the rest of us all came down in the last sun shower.

      • Tracey 15.1.3

        hopefully those who feel precious about our diarying, like judith collins (just joking), will see the strategy referred to here and assume they do the same for other clients like key and national. perhaps why fairfax wanted to water down the john key lies, article ahead of this one.

        • The Al1en

          “those who feel precious about our dairying, like judith collins (just joking)”

          I laughed on a couple of levels. The oravida politics bit and because Judith, more and more, looks like the hi-de-hi camp comedian’s butt of the joke, silly old cow mother-in-law.

          Lighten’s a miserable Saturday afternoon with a two for one special.

  15. Draco T Bastard 16

    Autism and Human Rights
    This is the bit that stood out to me:

    At the crux of any prejudice is the idea that “I” am different, separate and, ultimately “superior”. To live with this delusion, we must keep ourselves apart from those we believe “inferior”.

    Because it’s at the centre of the divide between rich and poor.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      And a large part of it is simply a moralistic, self righteous division of self-exaltation.

      BTW both the Right and the Left do this.

  16. RedLogix 17

    At the same time as the Abbott govt and it’s coalition partner are squabbling about how to dismantle the previous Labour govt intitiatives on climate change:

    If Sydney’s balmy late autumn feels unusual, there’s a good reason.

    If the mercury reaches at least 23 degrees on Saturday – 25 is forecast – Sydney will post its longest warm spell in records going back to 1910, says Sarah Perkins, a leading heatwave expert at the University of NSW.

    Sydney’s 25.1 degrees on Friday matched the previous longest heatwave – defined as at least three consecutive days in the warmest 10 per cent for each date – of seven days set in August 1995. Including Saturday, that burst could stretch to at least 14 days.

    ”It’s actually quite scary, especially if it lasts for two weeks – that’s incredible,” Dr Perkins said.
    ”That’s blitzing records.”

    Read more:

    • karol 17.1

      Auckland’s autumn has been pretty balmy this year as well. Hardly need any heating at all, except maybe if I’m still up later at night/early hours.

      Also, this from Bloomberg News, on Stuff.

      Australia’s program to rein in pollution is losing momentum, the latest in a series of setbacks for the international effort to tackle global warming.

      With the highest per-capita fossil fuel emissions among industrial countries, Australia’s participation in United Nations-led climate talks is seen as crucial to sway China and India to step up pollution controls even as conditions in developed nations worsen.

      Now, Australia’s environmental stance is undergoing an about-face as the country’s new coalition government and its political opponents haggle over the best way to dismantle earlier regulations.

      The shift in Australia comes just ahead of a series of global climate talks set for later this year. The UN is aiming to craft an agreement in 2015 that would include 190 nations.

      • RedLogix 17.1.1

        The remarkable thing is how deeply unpopular Abbott has made himself in just 8 short months. It’s almost at the point where the backbench revolt is going to force Joe Hockey into a deeply embarrassing U-turn on some Budget measures.

        But Abbott is a soft-target for my anger and despair. The truth is taking effect action against climate change is not the kind of thing democracies are good at imposing on an unenthusiastic population. If we thought telling them not to spank their kiddies was fraught – trying to take their cars off them (even if just symbolically), and all the other changes implied by real action – is going to be way, way harder.

        JMG has taken a well-earned break from his series of remarkable essays, but the last two are to my mind the climax of the entire body of work:

        We didn’t make that collective choice when it still could have made a difference: when peak oil was still decades in the future, anthropogenic climate change hadn’t yet begun to destabilize the planet’s ice sheets and weather patterns, and the variables that define the crisis of our age—depletion rates, CO2 concentrations, global population, and the rest of them—were a good deal less overwhelming than they’ve now become. As The Limits to Growth pointed out more than four decades ago, any effort to extract industrial civilization from the trap it made for itself had to get under way long before the jaws of that trap began to bite, because the rising economic burden inflicted by the ongoing depletion of nonrenewable resources and the impacts of pollution and ecosystem degradation were eating away at the surplus wealth needed to meet the costs of the transition to sustainability.

        That prediction has now become our reality. Grandiose visions of vast renewable-energy buildouts and geoengineering projects on a global scale, of the kind being hawked so ebulliently these days by the prophets of eternal business as usual, fit awkwardly with the reality that a great many industrial nations can no longer afford to maintain basic infrastructures or to keep large and growing fractions of their populations from sliding into desperate poverty. The choice that I discussed in last week’s post, reduced to its hard economic bones, was whether we were going to put what remained of our stock of fossil fuels and other nonrenewable resources into maintaining our current standard of living for a while longer, or whether we were going to put it into building a livable world for our grandchildren.

        The great majority of us chose the first option, and insisting at the top of our lungs that of course we could have both did nothing to keep the second from slipping away into the realm of might-have-beens. The political will to make the changes and accept the sacrifices that would be required to do anything else went missing in action in the 1980s and hasn’t been seen since. That’s the trap that was hidden in the crisis of our age: while the costs of transition were still small enough that we could have met them without major sacrifice, the consequences of inaction were still far enough in the future that most people could pretend they weren’t there; by the time the consequences were hard to ignore, the costs of transition had become too great for most people to accept—and not too long after that, they had become too great to be met at all. .

        • Colonial Viper

          The remarkable thing is how deeply unpopular Abbott has made himself in just 8 short months. It’s almost at the point where the backbench revolt is going to force Joe Hockey into a deeply embarrassing U-turn on some Budget measures.

          Sweet F.A. people wanted Abbott as PM, and that’s even including Coalition supporters. But Labour made themselves totally toxic, so that’s what you get.

          The truth is taking effect action against climate change is not the kind of thing democracies are good at imposing on an unenthusiastic population

          While true in many ways, Labor/Rudd got voted in on a clear carbon trading scheme/climate change action platform. Giving in to corporate and factional pressure fucked Australian Labor in the eyes of the electorate and their polls dived.

          The lesson being – electorates are often far more progressive than politicians who sound brave and forward thinking on the campaign trail, but rapidly become risk averse and befuddled when under the sway of lobbyists and factional considerations after taking office.

  17. Draco T Bastard 19

    Money creation and the nz economy

    A slideshow showing the illogic and irrationality of our monetary system.

  18. It is really great to use the net to catch up on programs. This Native Affairs program is awesome and covers really interesting subjects that are important in this election year.

    The titford stuff shows the underlying agenda of a few racist, big moneyed men and women. They have an agenda!!!!! It is the same agenda that they use for everything and it is designed to help them gain more influence and money. It is not a coincidence that a lot of them used to be and often still are, ‘in’ political parties. These moneyed people are trying both overtly and covertly to ‘own’ this country, set the agenda and, as I have said, gain influence and money – and with the election coming up they will be and are, up to their usual tricks. They are scum. They create illusion, distrust and division. They are working hard right now to implement their agenda. Be awake and aware – if not, they will trample you, your family and everything/everyone you believe in and hold dear, to make an extra dollar.

    and the follow up

    We had plenty of feedback about this story both for and against Allan Titford. However it’s the people behind him and their political agendas that have come under scrutiny.

    Native Affairs was contacted by several supporters of Alan Titford about our story including Ross Baker from the One NZ Foundation.

    When we invited him to appear this evening he declined because he lives in Australia. Muriel Newman, Mickael John Winkel, and Martin Doutre also declined.

    Joining Mihingarangi Forbes to discuss this is Treaty gate blogger John Ansell and treaty lawyer and Mana Party President Annette Sykes.

  19. bad12 21

    ”28.5 teaspoons of sugar in one jar of ”Chicken tonight” sweet and sour simmer sauce”, Source–Herald online,

    At a time when we as a country are faced with an epidemic of type 2 diabetes the use of such obscene amounts of sugar in products should not be tolerated,

    The world health organization has just lowered its recommended daily sugar intake to 6 teaspoons max and four people dining on a dinner containing the whole jar of the product highlighted by the Herald-online would be already over that recommendation without taking into account anything else any of them had ate during the rest of the day…

    • Draco T Bastard 21.1

      and four people dining on a dinner containing the whole jar

      I seriously doubt if the whole jar would be used. Certainly not in any meal I make – I only use two desert spoons full in each serving of stir-fry that I make.

    • Colonial Viper 21.2

      At a time when we as a country are faced with an epidemic of type 2 diabetes the use of such obscene amounts of sugar in products should not be tolerated,

      Manufacturers use large amounts of salt, sugar and flavour enhancer (MSG) to disguise how poor quality and tasteless the base ingredients in their products are.

  20. fisiani 22

    National’s policy of looking at whole of life spending is reaping huge benefits for those involved. A 20 year old on a benefit at age 20 currently spends another 20 years on a benefit. National have arranged mentors to assist young people to get off a benefit and into employment or training. This is expensive up front but well worthwhile in the long term. There is less crime and thus less imprisonment thus saving incarceration costs. Area by area the public service is looking at ways to reduce spending in future years. Compare this with the lolly scramble mentality of Labour that splashes money without regard to outcomes.

    • karol 22.1

      Compare this with the lolly scramble mentality of Labour that splashes money without regard to outcomes.

      Citations needed.

  21. fisiani 23

    How about spending more money on health and getting less operations.

    • karol 24.1

      Open to debate. And Annette King adds to the criticism. And was behind recommendations that never got picked up.

      And you still haven’t presented any citations about Labour’s policies with respect to getting people into jobs.

      Here’s a clue.

      And another.

      And you haven’t mentioned the Greens or Mana policies, either.

      • fisiani 24.1.1

        I haven’t mentioned Green or Mana policies. I don’t read joke books. The scary thing is that such nutbars would be Ministers in a Cunliffe led government. Sadly a collection of losers can trump the first place getter. That’s why first place has to be over 50%.

        • Draco T Bastard

          I don’t read joke books.

          No, you read delusional ones. That’s why a) you have no sense of humour and b) believe everything that National says.

          • RedLogix

            Don’t bother DtB. fisi is a pet troll we keep around because it’s kind of cute how he cares enough to keep pestering us all these years …..

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  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago

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