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Open mike 24/12/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:21 am, December 24th, 2014 - 190 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Mike SabinThe Authors of the Standard are now in holiday mode. Posting will be less regular and dependant on individual author enthusiasm. Open mike will continue every day and prepare yourself for some year in review posts and some recycling of old stuff. And as R0b has said be nice to each other.

Open mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

190 comments on “Open mike 24/12/2014 ”

  1. mickysavage 1

    For people wondering about today’s choice of picture his first name is Mike although he is not being very open with the press …

  2. “Captured Yazidi girls in Iraq are killing themselves to escape rape and torture at the hands of Isis (Islamic State) militants holding them prisoner.”


    Thank goodness Amnesty international aren’t “using women” as a reason to engage in “imperialist military intervention”.

    • Tracey 2.1

      “…Suspected Boko Haram gunmen kidnapped 172 women and children and killed 35 other people on Sunday during a raid on the northeast Nigerian village of Gumsuri, residents said on Thursday. …”

      Is Key speaking to Obama about this in response to the USA wanting to launch military action to prevent this terrorist group?

    • The Murphey 2.2

      Q. Are you buying into the propaganda or are you trying to point score ?

      • The Al1en 2.2.1

        Q. Do you do anything apart from ask questions you’ve already decided the answer for?

        And Amnesty International is now a propaganda machine. Okay. 🙄

        • The Murphey

          Q. Should your choice to not respond be taken that you were seeking to point score from a few days ago?

          VTO I believe it was you were engaged with.

          • The Al1en

            You’re appear as dense as +100 girl. You believe incorrectly.

            Nb, If you want proper answers, you’ll have to address the leading/framing nature of the question. Hence my original reply.

            As it is, the first part I’ve answered – “And Amnesty International is now a propaganda machine. Okay. 🙄 ”

            The second bit, partly, sort of, but not exactly. If anything, more like rubbing the cats nose in it when it sh1ts in the bath, but mostly to highlight the horrors of the situation and to note I’m on the same page with AI.

            Okay for you?

  3. (are key/joyce complicit/corrupt..?

    ..or just blindingly incompetent..?..

    ..it has to be one or the other..)


  4. Morrissey 4

    Why was Key allowed to do a PR thing on National Radio this morning?
    He’s shown public radio nothing but contempt all year.

    Radio NZ National, Wednesday 24 December 2014, 7:20 a.m.

    Suzy Ferguson has just announced that this is the time of year when we let the politicians, “whom we have spent so much time talking with this year”, to extend season’s greetings to the listeners.

    First up someone, who sounds like he’s slightly alcohol-impaired, starts to say something: “I’d like to take the opportu’ity….”

    That was the Prime Minister, who has NOT spent much time at all talking to National Radio this year. I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard Guyon Espiner or Geoff Robinson or Suzy Ferguson say this year: “And the Prime Minister declined to comment” or “The Prime Minister declined to come on the programme.”

    On Monday’s edition of “From the Left and From the Right”, Matthew Hooton gloated about how Key had been on nearly every commercial FM station over the last week—“because that’s where elections are won, and not by coming on National Radio.”

    Key and the rest of his henchmen have largely avoided talking to public radio; Joyce and Engllsh bail almost as frequently as Key does. Yet the producers—or more likely the management—at Radio New Zealand National have obviously insisted that Key be granted another PR gift.

    I would bet Bill Clinton’s monthly whoring budget that most of the journalists and staff at Nat. Rad. were not happy about this.

    • batweka 4.1

      Maybe Mediawatch will do an analysis of Key’s appearances in RNZ in 2014 👿

    • Skinny 4.2

      Key, Joyce and other National MP’s need not appear on radio NZ when they have their paid consultant, the cheerleading spin merchant Hooton to shovel their horse shit gribble.

      • OncewasTim 4.2.1

        …………. as he did this morning. Ryan me thinks doesn’t quite know how to handle him – despite all her efforts he just ignores her while pumping the spin. About time she stopped viewing him as just ‘a bit of a Hoot’

    • Treetop 4.3

      About a week ago on radio Key made reference to the up and coming cricket world cup, which is being held in NZ, (not sure if some matches are held in Aussie). All I could think was, that this is when more details of the state housing sell off will be announced. I wonder what he has up his sleeve for the rugby world cup later in the year?

      Oh the diversion of sport and the part it plays in politics!

    • Lanthanide 4.4

      Key appeared on National Radio on Morning Report almost every Monday after the new format started. He also came on for a couple of extra midweek interviews as well.

      You may recall guyon’s interview where Key refused to answer the question – that was one of their weekly interviews, and Key *did* appear for the next weekly interview after that.

      It was the old show with Geoff Robinson and assorted co-hosts that Key very seldom appeared on.

  5. philj 5

    RNZ is increasingly under the spell of its masters. Its funding has been frozen for over 5 years. More USA and UK fluff and spin. NZ’ers need a wider perspective. Alt media is the future for those who want to be informed and not dumbed down. Lift your game RNZ, you are failing NZ.

  6. Ad 6

    Got a great job for the GCSB:
    Form a national strategy to protect us from cyber attack.

    Obama calls the North Korean attack against Sony “cyber vandalism”, with legalistic parsing. Probably because his economy is most vulnerable of all to attack. But Pentagon has no strategy on it. Lights go off in Pyontang – daily. Lights go off in New York – global panic and market crash.

    We are great at civil defence for natural disasters. What GCSB could do is change it’s role and roll out a nationwide web defence strategy. Make themselves look useful.

    Apparently it’s a public sector need; Endace are going down the gurgler despite sackful a of public subsidy.

    Go on GCSB; look sharpish.

    • Colonial Rawshark 6.1

      They’re too busy enabling spying on their own citizens to worry about any of that public service BS.

      By the way, the Pentagon has fully integrated cyberwarfare capabilities into its philosophy of ‘full spectrum dominance’. Further, the US are outstanding innovators in the field of cyberwarfare and defends its systems from being hacked by China, Russia, etc on a continuous basis.

      • Tracey 6.1.1

        and working on cyber security for our big companies, another corporate subsidy but one we cant look behind

        • Colonial Rawshark

          Well, one of the biggest intruders into western communication networks (including western commercial networks) are our very own allies the USA and our very own FVEY partners. So what can we do about that. Wikileaks has made it very clear that the US spies on executives of foreign companies in order to gain competitive advantage for its own corporates, for instance.

      • Ad 6.1.2

        Check out ForeignPolicy.com today – they disagree with you.

        • Colonial Rawshark

          They want me to register to access the article by Rothkopf. Can I be bovered…

          Are you sure this is not just another piece encouraging even more US tax payer dollars into the already huge budget for the NSA/cyberwarfare?

          • Ad

            My point was to relocate the attack on Sony on any major NZ film producer.
            Precisely the high value and low mass export industry we need right now. It’s going gangbusters.

            We are still very early in the cyber-economy, and if Sony can’t defend itself, we should pay attention. GCSB can defend their own militarised patch – about the circle of a water tanker in a forest fire. Distance is no defence from attack and we need a GCSB who can show they are defending NZs interests.

            • The Murphey

              Q. Are SONY still releasing the movie?

              Q. Where is the evidence of the ‘hack’?

    • nadis 6.2

      Well, it is allegedly the first thing on their mission statement…….

      GCSB contributes to New Zealand’s national security by providing:

      Information assurance and cyber security to the New Zealand Government and critical infrastructure organisations
      Foreign intelligence to government decision-makers
      Cooperation and assistance to other New Zealand government agencies.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3

      Probably won’t do a hell of a lot of good due to this:

      TiSA is clearly a tool to undermine European data protection laws. The leaked text would allow any transfer of personal information to the rest of the world without safeguards. This is in breach of EU law and would make a whole chapter of the on-going EU data protection reform null and void.

      That’s about the TISA but I suspect that the TPPA has similar in it.

  7. Tracey 7

    What does “success” look like in a Capitalist system?


  8. bloody hell..nine-to-noon gets really interesting for the first time..

    ..and ryan closes it down..cuts to a song..

    ..and then goes to a fluff-story..

    ..hooton and rod oram were going hammer and tongs at each other..

    ..with ryan in the background trying to get them to stop..

    ..and ya hafta ask..’why?’..

    ..what/where was the problem in hooton/oram thrashing that one out..?

    ..hooton was pushing his usual ‘there is no real inequality1′ spin/bullshit..

    ..and oram was calling him on that..

    ..and ryan has just let hooton run that bullshit time and time again..unquestioned..on his platform on her show..

    ..and for once the bullshit that it is is called..

    ..and ryan instantly closes it down/scolds..

    ..and there was an interesting insight into hooton with/from a dog/cat question..

    hooton:..’we had a dog once..it was a labra-doodle..but it just looked too sad..

    ..so we got rid of it’..

    (all said in a disdainful/ennui-drenched-voice..)

    ..make of that what you will..

    • Bearded Git 8.1

      Spot on Phillip. Hooton was really pissed off when Oram shot him down in flames.

      It says eveything about Ryan that she shut the debate down because she “needed to keep her audience”.

      I sent RNZ a text (which Ryan will not read out) saying “you are keeping your audience by having a genuine debate about inequality in the economy and Mike Williams point about luxury car sales and food parcel handouts increasing at the same time was excellent”.

      It seems Williams can only front up to Hooton when he has someone like Oram backing him up.

      • phillip ure 8.1.1

        williams is likely curled up in a corner somewhere..getting a tongue-lashing from hooton..for daring to defy/question him..

        ..as we speak..

        • Bearded Git

          Ha ha but didn’t Hooton hate being called out?…….I really would like to see wealth numbers based on assets owned for the top 2% 5% and 10% of NZ’s versus those for the bottom 50% over the last 6 years of this National government.

          Anyone out there got these numbers?

        • philj

          Thanks for the link. I listened and was shocked that JK wished Linda a happy Christmas and looked forward to continued support. Was this real or a joke.

    • Skinny 8.2

      A happy household a happy dog, a sad household a sad dog. Animals are very intuitive and pick up on bad karma, little wonder their dog was sad.

      Meanwhile at our place (which is a zoo) the budgies screech drunk on seed bell, the lizards smile on their rock under the heat lamp, Mr & Mrs Froggy croak from their pond. The cat & the little min pin dog hoon around the garden table playfully leaping all over each other, joining in the fun is the goat who likes to be included, all be it he plays rough with those horns & loves to charge & bunt his father.. me. Ours is a happy household reflected by our pets crazy behavior.

    • Morrissey 8.3

      Hooton kept shouting: “You’re a Fabian! You’re a Fabian!” It was similar to the behaviour of another right wing stalwart, Roger Kerr (RIP) a decade or so ago. Just like Hooton this morning, Kerr was unable to offer a coherent response—on this occasion to Kim Hill. Kerr kept saying, disruptively, “Kim, are you a Marxist? Are you a Marxist? Are you a Marxist?”

      Hooton’s aim this morning was simply to destroy the conversation. He had nothing intelligent to say, and he was incensed to be contradicted on a forum where he is usually allowed to run rampant. Over the last few weeks, Hooton has denigrated Laila Harré incessantly, whenever he has been given the chance. He’s called her “loser of the year”, and claimed that her reputation has been “irredeemably tarnished”. He’s been doing this on television and on several radio stations. This is because Laila Harré repeatedly got the better of Hooton when she used to be in the “From the Left” seat on Monday mornings—the seat now filled by a robot which repeats: “I agree with Matthew.”

      We can expect a similar campaign of nasty little comments directed at Rod Oram now. Hooton doesn’t like being shown up and humiliated like he was this morning; that’s why he likes to spend most of his time with the respectable but dim types in the National Party.

      • Paul 8.3.1

        Hooton is a total bs artist.
        Rod Oram called him out and showed how Hooton plays with stats.
        Kathryn Ryan clearly a Tory……just didn’t want someone to challenge Hooton’s story.

        • phillip ure

          i understand ryan got a paper-cut the other day..

          ..and she bled blue…

          • Paul

            I find Hooton quite repulsive.
            How he is allowed to propagate his ideas on RNZ beats me, especially after the revelations in Dirty Politics.

            • phillip ure

              aye..!..i thought that wd see him ditched..

              ..if not that..

              ..what wd it take..?

              • Paul

                Nothing, it appears.
                Jordan Williams still gets on doesn’t he?

                • i haven’t heard him since dirty politics..

                  ..maybe he was the panelist thrown under the dirty politics bus..?

                  ..to save hooton..?

                  ..hooton wd have done the actual throwing..

                  ..he wd just think of williams as a (too) sad-eyed dog..

                  ..he/who had to go..

                  • fender

                    Fuck it was funny to read about Jordan Williams being ordered by Slater to ‘get down to the pub Back Benchers and video Winston Peters pissed off his tree’. Williams did as he was told of course only to discover he had got out of bed for nothing because Winston had not been there after all.

      • Rodel 8.3.2

        Just another example of shallow Hooton, voicing his ideologies without facts verses a professional like Oram who know more about real numbers and stats.
        Williams showed a bit of nous for a change.

        It was time someone challenged Hooton’s pre – prepared grandstanding.

        If rnz continues to spend our money on Hooton I hope they pair him with Oram in future. If so I’ll revise my listening habits and maybe tune in to Monday mornings again.

    • OncewasTim 8.4

      @ PU – see above. She doesn’t quite know how to cope eh?
      and btw Phil – a ding dong Merrily on High to you and Season’s Greatings to the rest of youSE

    • OncewasTim 8.5

      I’m in auto-moderation @ Phil (PRESUMABLY because of comments made on that thread relating to Steven Choooooice’s Bugger’s Muddle of a Muntry by Karol (aka MoBIE) – so maybe have a ding dong Merrily on Middle (everything in moderation doncha know) instead of the previous greeting. Could of course be for other reasons and it’s not my intention to offend, nor is it my site to determine the rules. Nor would I be heartbroken or devastated if I was to be sanctioned further.
      Activisim ain’t what it used to be eh? …. but I’m thinking the pendulum is almost at it’s limit

  9. SDCLFC 9

    This one sihts me and has gone somewhat unnoticed –

    Foodstuffs have sold a large block of inner city Wellington land they were planning to develop for nearly 10 years.

    To make way for the supermarket a long established community swimming school was evicted and the building demolished.

    What a bunch of sihtbags.

    • Te Reo Putake 9.1

      Pisses me off, too. I lived on Tasman Street for a few years and the pool was a real focus for the Mt Cook community. It’s still a lovely part of the capital, but a monstrous embassy isn’t likely to add much to the atmosphere. Still, better than yet another supermarket and associated traffic problems, I suppose.

  10. Haven’t seen any comments here about the Dotcom decision.
    Dotcom tweets ‘read the first twenty pages’ of the majority decision that rejects his appeal to the Supreme Court that the search warrant was invalid because it was in effect a ‘general warrant’ that allowed the cops to trawl for anything, and then send it off the the US.

    Kim Dotcom @KimDotcom · 18h 18 hours ago
    Read the first 28 pages of today’s Supreme Court judgement in my case. Chief Justice of New Zealand vs Govt friends.

    That’s Sian Elias’ minority report that backs the High Court Judge, Helen Winkelman that the search warrant was invalid.
    Both outstanding female jurists, in agreement with the Law Commission.
    The male jurists in the majority, follow the shonkey capitalist line that NZ law can be interpreted how they like so long as it is stamped by the US Hollywood stooge AG Eric Holder as ‘valid’.

    • Colonial Rawshark 10.1

      thanks DB.

    • Murray Rawshark 10.2

      What they’re saying is that sloppy police work is fine as long as it’s in the service of the empire. There must be some invisible ink clause in The Bill of Rights that says, Notwithstanding any misbehaviour or breaches of local law and regulations by the New Zealand Police, official American desires will take precedence.

      This is an incredibly dangerous precedent, because ngati poaka already go twice as far as they’re allowed to. This sort of judicial rubber stamping will push that out to three times.

      Free Kim Dotcom and FJK.

  11. batweka 11

    Re the Sony hack.

    Gotnews.com thinks that the hack was an inside job (possibly in Japan). I don’t know anything about that site (other than that they need a better sub-editor). Can anyone more technically minded say if they’re making any sense? I never was clear why the North Koreans were blamed.


      • batweka 11.1.1



      • Murray Rawshark 11.1.2

        “Back in reality where people do not care about the ravings of a multi-chinned lunatic,”
        Johnson sounds a lot like someone much closer to home.

        • Paul

          Here is Johnson’s bio on the got news site.

          ‘He is author of Why Coolidge Matters: Leadership Lessons from America’s Most Underrated President and The Truth About the IRS Scandal. Charles is an award-winning journalist who has also written for Wall Street Journal, New York Post, Los Angeles Times, American Spectator, Daily Beast, National Review Online, PJ Media, and Weekly Standard.
          Charles has appeared on Fox News with Megyn Kelly, Sean Hannity, and Lou Dobbs and numerous radio programs, including Rusty Humphries, Dennis Prager, Larry Elder, and Mark Levin. He is at work on a new book about the researcher community for St. Martin’s Press.’

          Reference to Fox News, Sean Hannity, the Wall Street Journal…ok this guy is Slater on steroids.
          Notice the site claims to be unbiased, just like Fox News claim to be fair and balanced and Slater promises his new site to blue not left or right.

    • joe90 11.2

      Here’s a redditors well sourced time line, in laymans language, of the Sony hack.


      • batweka 11.2.1

        Here’s a better sourced article (via Cory Doctorow). Security issues commentator Bruce Schneier points out why this is not terrorism, and questions the idea that it has to be the NK govt.

        [W]e don’t know these attacks were sanctioned by the North Korean government. The US government has made statements linking the attacks to North Korea, but hasn’t officially blamed the government, nor have officials provided any evidence of the linkage. We’ve known about North Korea’s cyberattack capabilities long before this attack, but it might not be the government at all. This wouldn’t be the first time a nationalistic cyberattack was launched without government sanction. We have lots of examples of these sorts of attacks being conducted by regular hackers with nationalistic pride. Kids playing politics, I call them. This may be that, and it could also be a random hacker who just has it out for Sony.

        Remember, the hackers didn’t start talking about The Interview until the press did. Maybe the NSA has some secret information pinning this attack on the North Korean government, but unless the agency comes forward with the evidence, we should remain skeptical. We don’t know who did this, and we may never find out. I personally think it is a disgruntled ex-employee, but I don’t have any more evidence than anyone else does.

        What we have is a very extreme case of hacking.


        • The Murphey

          Q. In recent times when has SONY been ‘hacked’?

          • batweka


            • The Murphey

              Date: April 20, 2011
              Impact: 77 million PlayStation Network accounts hacked; Sony is said to have lost millions while the site was down for a month.

              This is viewed as the worst gaming community data breach of all-time. Of more than 77 million accounts affected, 12 million had unencrypted credit card numbers. According to Sony it still has not found the source of the hack. Whoever they are gained access to full names, passwords, e-mails, home addresses, purchase history, credit card numbers, and PSN/Qriocity logins and passwords. “It’s enough to make every good security person wonder, ‘If this is what it’s like at Sony, what’s it like at every other multi-national company that’s sitting on millions of user data records?'” says eIQnetworks’ John Linkous. He says it should remind those in IT security to identify and apply security controls consistently across their organizations. For customers, “Be careful whom you give your data to. It may not be worth the price to get access to online games or other virtual assets.”

              SONY has previous

        • Paul

          A simple question and a simple motto for anyone investigating the hack.
          Who benefits?
          Follow the money.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.3

      Talking about Sony, this is an interesting review of their attempt at Annie:

      It isn’t just that the music is crap. It isn’t just that the lines are laboured and seemed to invite eye-rolling, even from the cast who know they had a dud on their hands. No, modern-day ‘Annie’ should be reviled for far darker reasons: it’s a cheerleader for warrantless surveillance, packaged up for primary-schoolers.

      I’ve actually been noticing such happening in TV shows and such quite a lot recently. A case in point would be Person of Interest which is basically a show about how great mass surveillance is and how bad and evil the government is.

      • Colonial Rawshark 11.3.1

        how on earth can they spin that mass surveillance is great while the government which uses it is bad…

        • Draco T Bastard

          It’s a rather involved plot line that has evil government operatives, a group of really nice (and rich) people who use the mass surveillance for good, a foreign corporation that is also evil (and owns large chunks of congress) and, as of the closing episode of the 4th season, two AIs one of which is good and one evil.

      • karol 11.3.2

        Surveillance videos in cop/crime and spy shows are made for the big and little screen – provides a panoramic view from close up for bystanders watching the main action. These days each team of the authorities wants ‘eyes on” the action: from “Criminal Minds” to “Madam Secretary” and ditto from UK and Aussie shows and films.

        But the subtext is how great surveillance technology is with very little in the mainstream films and programmes critiquing such surveillance.

        Person of Interest gets halfway there in showing how surveillance can be used by both the bad and the “good” guys.

        • batweka

          Spooks was the one that opened my eyes to just how far the UK had gone in mass surveillance. Pity someone doesn’t do a version that shows all the times the tech is misused. We need an anti-surveillance genre.

    • Pascals bookie 11.4

      Haven’t read the gotnews clip, but he’s probably recycling what a lot people are saying. Here’s a couple of good links, the first is a bit of a round up, the second is more specific



      • batweka 11.4.1

        ta. Looks similar to the link above, that there’s serious doubt about the NK govt being responsible.

        (don’t bother with the gotnews link, it’s ubertrash)

  12. Skinny 12

    By about now Hooton will be in full cry parroting his ideological views in a bar in some place like Kingsland. By 2pm he will be sitting alone slumped in his chair in a drunken stupor, after having driven off anyone enjoying a bit of pre Xmas cheer.

    • he was on the wagon until the election..

      ..i dunno if he took up the turps again after that self-imposed deadline..

      • Paul 12.1.1

        Are you saying he has an issue with alcohol?

      • Skinny 12.1.2

        I do find Hooton entertaining and at least he is open about his spin. I’m in his area (Epsom) looking after my sisters swanky pad till Jan 10. If he is about & yourself Phil, maybe you chaps may want to come over for a BBQ (you will have to bring your own vegan snarlers) and we can talk politic’s.

        • Colonial Rawshark

          I’ll be in AKL for a couple of days over that time, gives us a yell 😎

          • Ad

            I’ll be back there on the 5th.

          • Skinny

            Why yes of course your welcome Colonial Rawshark, your esteem company may lure Hooton along for some real ideological banter. May even see if the local ACT MP would like to come along and explain the circumstances leading to him running over and killing my old house mate Jeffo the cat. Btw my sister & husband, though filthy rich voted the Greens this election, they finally found a social conscience after watching Mind The Poverty Gap.

            Please Note: No hors d’oeuvre’s, certainly no tapas (Matt & Phil) just the basic thick scotch fillet steak (sorry if offended Phil) & Greek salad, cooked minus the wearing of an apron.

        • phillip ure


          ..i wd be up for that..

    • tracey 12.2

      really? I am no fan of Hooton but your characterisation of him reflects more on you.

      • Skinny 12.2.1

        Oh lighten up Tracey, just poking a bit of fun at him, he’s a big boy and knows when someone is taking the Mickey. Good for him if he checks his drinking from time to time, known to myself after the odd binge. I mix with all sorts and respect each others differences. Many a time I’ve gone hammer & tong with the Bosses during the day, and we have put things behind in the evening and had some outstanding sessions together. Life is too short otherwise sister.

  13. radio new zealand is reporting university research showing that if all the real environmental etc costs are factored into dairy..

    ..that dairying actually costs nz more than it makes in export income…

    ..(the year 2012 was analysed..)



    • b waghorn 13.1

      I’ve heard this one before but don’t understand how ,are they talking real dollar terms or if ets or carbon taxes were involved.(not picking a fight)

      • phillip ure 13.1.1

        @ waghorn..

        ..from the report i understand it wasn’t just environmental costs..

        ..but they were included..

        ..it was also the costs of fertilisers/other overheads/hidden-costs..as well..

        ..i have long thought that..so the/that confirmation is confirming..

        ..but it must be chilling news for those for whom it is news..

    • so..if you add the above to the price-plunge thru glut for the forseeable future..

      ..the impending arrival of muufri..

      ..and that dairys’ exemption from having to pay pollution charges is finite..

      (..they won’t be able to get away with that for much longer..)

      ..and then you add all of that up..

      ..how can dairy(ing) not be fucked..?

      ..and how can anyone unable to see/comprehend that..

      ..not be in total denial..?

      ..the ‘white-gold’ phenomenon..

      ..is really a tottering-wreck of/for an economic-foundation..

      ..and the sooner we all realise that..the better..

      ..’cos big changes have to come..

      ..there is/will be no way of avoiding them..

      ..chew/mull on that one over xmas…eh..?

      • The Al1en 13.2.1

        “..the impending arrival of muufri..”

        I note there’s still no time frame given for frankenmilk, but a google of ‘impending definition’ gives us the following, which although as vague as ever, contains more of a clue than garnered by it’s NZ publicist.

        gerund or present participle: impending
        be about to happen.

        synonyms: imminent, at hand, close, close at hand, near, nearing, approaching, coming, forthcoming, upcoming, to come, on the way, about to happen, upon us,”

        Though of course, given the nature of selling lab grown products to savvy consumers, it’s quite possible impending means something quite different to the cheerleaders.

        (of something bad) be looming.”

        • phillip ure

          pedant of the day award..

          ..medal already dispatched by courier..

          • The Al1en

            noun: pedant; plural noun: pedants
            a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.”

            As previously discussed, a time frame isn’t a minor detail given the consequences to kiwi workers or the economy due to your predicted dairy collapse. Of course you can fill the void any time you you want to by picking a day, year, decade to go with your unsubstantiated claims.

            That doesn’t mean you can’t still refuse to put your money where your mouth is and say when the dairy death by lala milk will come about though.
            So carry on 😉

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Is it made of people?

            • b waghorn

              I’d imagine the big corporate’s like nestle and danone are watching this muufri very closely.

              • @ waghorn..

                ..it’s first big take-up will be as a cheaper/more stable ingredient in commercial products than milk..

                ..much as the first lab-grown meat will appear in burgers and the like..

                • b waghorn

                  Unless humans come up with a way to control our rampant population lab food is our future but I’ll let you go first.

            • batweka

              “Is it made of people?”

              Yeast and cow DNA. Which does produce a dilemma for the hardcore vegans.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                ahhhh thx. Yeeeuch. Like most of these things I will try to avoid for at least the first 10 years after introduction, to see if it gets pulled off the shelves after newborns get delivered with the wrong number of limbs etc…

          • The Al1en

            Right, so when’s the market dominance going to start? And then the death of kiwi dairy?

            • Draco T Bastard

              The death of Kiwi dairy is already under way. It’s even being assisted by Fonterra through their China Farms.

              • The Al1en

                Sure, but as you may or may not be aware, I’m focussing on the oft repeated but as yet unsubstantiated claims related to lab milk and the death of dairy.

                Do you want to respond to that?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Dairy is going the way of the dodo for a number of reasons but mostly the fact that it’s just not sustainable at the levels that we’re producing it. Once we get the farmers to cover the costs of dairying as indicated by the research and cut it back to sustainable production levels the cost is going to skyrocket and that is what will kill off dairy eventually.

                  Replace all those dairy fields with some plants that can easily produce a milk substitute and we get both sustainability and cheaper milk. Go for vertical farms in the cities and we even get to replace those fields with native bush instead.

                  • The Al1en

                    So no, you don’t. Okay, thanks. 🙂

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I did respond – you obviously didn’t understand it.

                    • The Al1en

                      Yeah, that’ll be it then mate. 🙂

                      “Right, so when’s the market dominance going to start? And then the death of kiwi dairy?”

                      “Sure, but as you may or may not be aware, I’m focussing on the oft repeated but as yet unsubstantiated claims related to lab milk and the death of dairy.”

                      “Do you want to respond to that?”

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Well, I pointed out that kiwi dairy was already dying for a number of reasons and then I pointed out that it would be replaced by milk substitutes. Those substitutes are likely to include things like Muufree.

                      You failed to understand this as you were focusing solely upon lab produced substitutes. your rather narrow vision is your problem.

                    • The Al1en

                      Narrow vision is your diversion, but I did ask specifically about monster milk and the time frame as you view it to gain market dominance and then the death of kiwi dairy as frequently foretold because of it. As was the context, as was the discussion you were part of, since you originally provided 2015 as the expected roll out date.

                      All I got was farms in the sky, which may be a great idea, but not really what I was asking.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      but I did ask specifically about monster milk and the time frame as you view it to gain market dominance

                      But I don’t think Muufree will gain market dominance. That’s phil’s point. I think NZ dairying will be killed off by other factors with the major one being unsustainability.

                    • The Al1en

                      Fair enough, and in regards to mumu milk I don’t think you a crackpot wishful thinker.

                      And as sustainability is the key to everything, I sort of agree.

              • b waghorn

                They used to say those things about kiwifruit in late 80s when our experts were travelling over seas but if you discount PSA its still going strong.

          • batweka

            “The synthetic milk is still in development, and the company is aiming for a marketable product by summer of 2015.”

            Following that link, it looks like a health and marketing nightmare.

            It’s a genetically engineered food, so there goes a big chunk of the market for milk alternatives where people are looking for a natural product. Plus it will get slammed by the anti-GE lobby (thankfully).

            It’s also likely to cause health problems (like most industrial food does), so it’s unlikely to attract the people avoiding dairy for health reasons.

            I guess if they manage to make the product cheap enough they’ll be able to sell it to poor people who have less choices 🙁

            • phillip ure

              weka:..i fret..therefore i am…

              ..re ge-food..been to a supermarket lately..?

              ..one of the big pluses of this product is that the ‘health problem’ in cow-milk is fixed..as that the bad things in cow-milk..just aren’t there..(so yr health ‘bullshit’ is just ‘bullshit’..eh..?..)

              ..and yes it will be good for ‘poorer-people’..

              ..it’ll be cheaper and healthier..

              ..(so no need for that little sad face..eh..?..)

              • The Al1en

                “While the goal is to produce a product as good, if not better, than milk, as well as cheaper, Muufri may initially cost twice the amount of cow milk.”

                Without a major uptake, there’s no hope of lower prices, so poor people won’t be catered for at all unless the middle/upper (in NZ read moneyed) classes buy into it – The most apt definition of trickle down economy ever.

                Though it does add to the debate and offer an insight into your thinking that because the poor can’t afford to drink proper milk, they should have to rely on the ‘cheap’ substitute sh1t instead. Nice.

                • batweka

                  Interesting. Looks like another hype the startup story.

                  • @ weka..


                    ..no..muufri has the backing of one of the biggest food companies..

                    ..and frankly..your willful obtuseness/nit-picking-negativity in claiming to be unable to ‘see’ this..

                    ..really does you no favours..

                    ..got any more ‘problems’ you’d like to orifice-pluck and lay before us..?

                    ..c’mon..!..let yr imagination run wild..!

                    ..so far we’ve had..’it’ll make you sick’..’it’s poor-bashing’..

                    ..and now it’s just ‘start-up hype’..

                    ..and all of them orifice-plucked..eh..?

                    ..not a fact/figure behind any of them..eh..?..

                    ..it must be a day ending in a ‘y’…eh..?

                    • batweka

                      still can’t address any of the actual points phil. Just a poorly constructed list of ‘you’re wrong, I’m right’ 🙄

                      And you can’t even answer a simple question like what do you think are the actual problematic things in cows milk.

                    • i’m sorry..you’ve made all this shit up..?

                      ….all of it just orifice-plucked dairy-defending scare-mongering bullshit..

                      ..and you are demanding documentation from me..?

                      ..points for trying..eh..?

                    • batweka

                      No, I’m not even bothering to ask for data. Simply a coherent argument that isn’t just ‘I’m right, you’re full of shit’ would suffice at this stage.

                    • how about looking at the you’re ‘full of shit’-fact..

                      ..you just interviewed yr keyboard..and made all that shit up..

                      ..didn’t you..?

                    • batweka


                      “you’re full of shit fact”

                      Lolz. Still can’t tell the difference between fact and opinion phil. Oh dear.

                    • why can’t yu stop making like p.g..

                      ..and just answer the question..

                      ..did you make that stuff up..?

                      ..yes or no will suffice..

                    • And you can’t even answer a simple question like what do you think are the actual problematic things in cows milk.

                      No, he can’t. He firmly believes there’s a shitload of them, on the basis that exploiting animals is morally wrong therefore the resulting products must be bad for you. I had a similar conversation with a Muslim once, who was convinced that pork, unlike ‘healthy’ meat like lamb, causes cancer. There is no logical argument against religion.

                    • that’s where u r wrong ..again..milty..

                      ..(can i call ya milty..?..for some reason i always want to call you pre-menstrual..y’know..!..that thing that doesn’t exist..?..)

                      ..even if i were not vegan..i wd still be warning/doing a heads-up on this..

                      ..the economic implications are too huge to ignore..

                      ..(meanwhile fonterra predict that sunny days will be here again soon..talk about institutional/corporate-denial..and the farmers are just running on blind hope/belief..

                      ..and of course the first to fall..will be the most highly-geared..)

                      ..but u lack the vision/intelligence to see all that..eh..?

                      ..no worries there..!..eh..?

                      ..and/so clearly..dairy has a clean bill of health from u too..eh..?

                      ..no worries there..!


                      ..have some cheese..!..whydoncha..?

                    • Paul

                      It’s Christmas. Have a great day.
                      Peace and happiness to you.

                    • oh..!..and this..:

                      “.. Because we choose what goes into our product – we can choose to leave out lactose –

                      – which is at least partially indigestible by 75% of adults;

                      – and we can choose to leave out bad cholesterol for a much healthier product.

                      And because our products are made with the same precision as medicines – they’ll be free of all bacteria..”

                      ..have you ever even heard of ‘bad cholesterol’ there..milty..?

                      ..that’s all ‘religious’-bullshit too..?..is it..?

                      ..or is it a fact that milk/dairy is chocka with ‘bad cholesterol’..?

                      ..(there is also ‘good cholesterol in there..)

                      ..and won’t food manufacturers love not having to chill it..eh..?

                      ..can you grasp that concept..?

                      ..or too ‘religious’ for you..?

                      ..should we call you ‘psycho milk’..?

                    • ..have some cheese..!..whydoncha..?

                      Had three different types with lunch, all excellent.

                      [lactose] – which is at least partially indigestible by 75% of adults;

                      You may have noticed that you have to excrete stuff that wasn’t digestible every day, Phil. It’s not a sign something’s wrong. Fact: lactose tolerance spread rapidly through western populations because milk is a fucking shit-hot food that enabled lactose-tolerant people to survive better than those who weren’t.

                      ..have you ever even heard of ‘bad cholesterol’ there..milty..?

                      I have. It’s part of the nutritionist dogma operating since the early 70s, which has delivered an obesity epidemic of staggering proportions. Social science is a really, really crap way of establishing what people should eat and what they shouldn’t, especially when politicians get involved. We really should stop paying attention to them. Still, even if we were to assume ‘bad cholesterol’ was an actual thing, you’d have to be drinking bizarre quantities of milk for it to cause a problem.

              • batweka

                “One of the big pluses of this product is that the ‘health problem’ in cow-milk is fixed, as that the bad things in cow-milk just aren’t there (so your health ‘bullshit’ is just ‘bullshit’)”

                What bad things are you talking about specifically?

                The health issues to do with milk are varied. Some of it is straight out lactose intolerance. For others they find they can eat goat or sheep dairy but not cow. For others they find that raw milk is ok but not pasteurised. Others find whole milk works but homogenised doesn’t.

                Some people who shift from dairy/meat to say soy find they end up with health problems from unfermented soy (esp thyroid issues, sometimes digestive problems). Some of that is the phytates. Some the phytohormones. Some of it is the industrial processing.

                This wasn’t predicted by the soy industry (or at least they weren’t up front about it), so it’s unlikely that the muufri people will have tested for these kinds of health issues because they’re only going to show up over time as individuals figure it out and then eventually someone does some research.

                Plus really who trusts industrial food manufacturers to give a shit? They’ll test their products to make sure there are no scary acute reactions to their food, but chronic ones that are hard to pin down but easy to ignore? yeah right.

                • Paul

                  Milk is not good for humans.


                  From the article.

                  ‘Human Bodies Fight Cow’s Milk

                  Besides humans (and companion animals who are fed by humans), no species drinks milk beyond infancy or drinks the milk of another species. Cow’s milk is suited to the nutritional needs of calves, who have four stomachs and gain hundreds of pounds in a matter of months, sometimes weighing more than 1,000 pounds before they are 2 years old.(29)

                  Cow’s milk is the number one cause of food allergies among infants and children, according to the American Gastroenterological Association.(30) Most people begin to produce less lactase, the enzyme that helps with the digestion of milk, when they are as young as 2 years old. This reduction can lead to lactose intolerance.(31) Millions of Americans are lactose intolerant, and an estimated 90 percent of Asian-Americans and 75 percent of Native- and African-Americans suffer from the condition, which can cause bloating, gas, cramps, vomiting, headaches, rashes, and asthma.(32) A U.K. study showed that people who suffered from irregular heartbeats, asthma, headaches, fatigue, and digestive problems “showed marked and often complete improvements in their health after cutting milk from their diets.”(33)’

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    Sounds about right. Interesting when you reflect that NZ has very high rates of childhood asthma and eczema…

                  • Lactose tolerance is one of the fastest-spreading mutations found in human evolution, exactly because of its enormous survival value. Peta is, as usual, full of shit.

                    • So, what you’ve got there is:

                      1. The valid point that the ‘food pyramid’ is bollocks. Well, fair enough, but that doesn’t mean dairy is bad for you.

                      2. A range of “studies show” bullshit that says calcium intake from dairy isn’t what it’s cracked up to be, to which – meh. That also doesn’t equate to ‘dairy is bad for you.’

                      3. Lots of people are lactose-intolerant. Well, yeah – people who don’t have the genes for it shouldn’t eat dairy. If you’re descended from Europeans, more than likely you have the genes, and if you don’t it will quickly become apparent. If you do have the genes, how is dairy bad for you exactly?

            • Draco T Bastard

              I think soy milk is the better option and it should already be cheaper than cow milk as the top comment in this thread shows.

              • batweka

                It’s not the better option if you can’t digest it or it messes up thyroid function. People aren’t all the same when it comes to health. Some people will do better on soy, others on cows milk, others on no milk at all.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  It’s not the better option if you can’t digest it or it messes up thyroid function.

                  And how many people does that effect?

                  • McFlock

                    how many would you find acceptable?

                    Wikipedia reckons soy can aggravate gout, too. In my experience that’s a bit like saying a stubbed toe can aggravate a T-rex, but never mind 🙂

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It’s not a question of acceptability but of comparison. We know that between 5% and 90% of people (Depending upon human sub-group) are badly affected by drinking milk due to lactose intolerance.

                    • batweka

                      Yes, which is why people should find out which foods work for them and which don’t, instead of being told that x food is good or bad (for everyone).

                      Many people do very well on cows milk. Many don’t. Many fall somewhere in between. It’s not rocket science.

                • @ weka..


                  ..one of the major selling points of this muufri..

                  ..is that it will be able to be drunk by the 30% of people who are lactose intolerant..

                  (..fact-checking weka..it’s more than a part-time job..)

              • Soy “milk” (quote marks because it’s not milk – milk comes from the mammary glands of animals) is a highly-processed vaguely-edible white fluid that should be avoided by anyone who enjoys eating actual food.

                • McFlock

                  Could be worse.
                  Could be tofu.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Soy milk

                  Soy milk, also referred to as soymilk or soya milk, is a plant milk produced by soaking dried soybeans and grinding them in water.

                  A traditional staple of Asian cuisine, soy milk is a stable emulsion of oil, water and protein.

                  Yeah, I really don’t think that qualifies as highly processed.

                  • batweka

                    Not quite. That’s how you would make it at home. Have you ever tasted homemade soy milk? It doesn’t taste anything like what you get in the supermarket. Soy is not a particularly nice tasting food (consider what raw tofu tastes like, which is actually considerably nicer than homemade soy milk), so you have to do things to it to make it more palatable eg add sugar. Or process highly (various methods using high heat can change the flavour).

                    Of course if you want to make money, you want the cheapest methods possible eg,

                    Silk’s Light soymilk, as well as its “Heart Health” soymilk, is made with hexane-extracted soy flour instead of whole soybeans. Hexane is a highly explosive volatile solvent. It is a byproduct of gasoline refining and a neurotoxin. Soybeans used in Silk’s Light and Heart Health soymilk are immersed in this neurotoxic petrochemical to make soy flour, which is listed as the main ingredient in these Silk products.

                    Hexane is classified as a “hazardous air pollutant” by the Environmental Protection Agency and emissions are regulated for their contribution to air pollution. Food processors are the country’s major hexane emitters. When The Cornucopia Institute sent samples of hexane-extracted soy flour to an independent lab for residue testing, residues as high as 21 parts per million were found. The effects on consumer health of repeated and long-term consumption of hexane-extracted soy ingredients have not been thoroughly studied. An extraction process that does not involve hexane is available, but using hexane is cheaper for the processor.

                    Silk’s creamers and Silk Plus Omega-3 DHA contain other minor hexane-extracted ingredients-soy lecithin and algal oil, respectively. Moreover, the Cornucopia Institute has received reports from parents of toddlers and children who experienced diarrhea and stomach upset from the DHA used in Silk (Life’s DHA by Martek Biosciences Corporation). This is the same additive, found in infant formula (extracted from algae and soil fungus), that has been linked to severe adverse reactions in infants. (Cornucopia has obtained adverse reaction reports from the FDA verifying this unfortunate health side-effect.) The FDA has never tested the safety of Life’s DHA, relying instead on safety data supplied by the same corporation that has a financial interest in selling and placing these additives in foods. The FDA did, however, indicate serious reservations regarding the safety of these additives.


                    I’ve just pulled that out of google. I’m reluctant to spend much time finding optimal sources because for me all this is old news, stuff that’s been in the public domain for years. Draco, I’d really encourage you to look further. If you want to go for a plant based protein there are much better sources than soy (eg other legumes).

                    I’m not sure that soy is a traditional Asian staple unless it is fermented (traditional as in used over hundreds of years). I’ve heard contradictory things about this, but fermentation changes the phytate composition making it much more digestible (similar to how fermenting cows milk makes it more digestible for some people).

                    There are questionable links between the push for soy as a food and the soy industries’ need to create demand.

                    Phytates have distinct health problems, the most immediate is digestion, but there are other less obvious ones like the effect on metabolism of minerals and other nutrients.

                    Soy also has chemicals that affect hormones. There is much debate about whther this poses a problem for humans esp babies, but there is empirical evidence from people who have overconsumed soy and ended up with thryoid problems that resolve or lessen once soy is stopped.

                    The industrial production of soy is hard on farmers and the land.

                    Small scale production of soy makes sense, and consumption in moderate amounts appears to be ok for some people, but replacing dairy protein on a daily basis is asking for trouble.

                    Not all soy products are the same, production varies, and many products have unhealthy additives (eg sugar).

                    If you go to look at all these issues you will see huge amounts of contradictory information. A big part of that is the large amounts of money put into PR by the industry (think Fonterra on steroids).

                    But I managed to find this old link which has some useful starting points.


                  • Sounds real home-made, doesn’t it? Suffice to say that when you see it in the supermarket, that shit wasn’t made just by soaking soybeans in water and grinding them. Also: compared to milk that doesn’t need quote marks, any “milk” you might buy counts as highly processed.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.3

      Study puts price tag on dairy

      Not really surprised to hear that either. It’s been obvious for awhile that dairying wasn’t sustainable.

  14. Paul 14

    This is rare to see.
    An article in the corporate media ( and in the UK Daily Mail ) pointing out that it is the west who are the aggressors in the Ukraine.
    The author is Peter Hitchens, brother of the late Christopher Hitchens.

    Here is an excerpt.

    ‘We think we are the heroes, setting out with brave hearts to confront the Dark Lord, and free the saintly Ukrainians from his wicked grasp.
    This is all the most utter garbage. Since 1989, Moscow, the supposed aggressor, has – without fighting or losing a war – peacefully ceded control over roughly 180 million people, and roughly 700,000 square miles of valuable territory.
    The EU (and its military wing, Nato) have in the same period gained control over more than 120 million of those people, and almost 400,000 of those square miles.
    Until a year ago, Ukraine remained non-aligned between the two great European powers. But the EU wanted its land, its 48 million people (such a reservoir of cheap labour!) its Black Sea coast, its coal and its wheat.
    So first, it spent £300 million (some of it yours) on anti-Russian ‘civil society’ groups in Ukraine.
    Then EU and Nato politicians broke all the rules of diplomacy and descended on Kiev to take sides with demonstrators who demanded that Ukraine align itself with the EU.
    Imagine how you’d feel if Russian politicians had appeared in Edinburgh in September urging the Scots to vote for independence, or if Russian money had been used to fund pro-independence organisations.’


    • wyndham 14.1

      EU and NATO egged on all the way by that bastion of democracy and free enterprise – – – USA. Nothing like a bit of biffo to bolster an ailing economy and feed the military–industrial complex that is America.

    • Murray Rawshark 14.2

      I like Peter’s writing much better than that of his pompous drunken idiot neocon brother. I bet Rumsfeld and Cheney don’t have barbecues with Peter.

      • Paul 14.2.1

        I have mixed views on Christopher Hitchens.
        He was a very talented writer and wrote so well about many issues . He was brave about Palestine when few others were.
        Then he got swept away by the neocon invasion of Iraq. I always wondered whether that was because of his love of Kurdistan. Many on the left felt betrayed by his switch at this time.
        It was tragic that he died so early and sad he was so addicted to alcohol.

  15. Murray Rawshark 15

    Factory farming à la Fonterra will not save us.


  16. heads up labour..!

    ..deborah hill-cone..(to a smattering of applause/whoops..)..on nat-rad/panel..has provided her solution to all of labours’ woes..

    ..now..steel yrslves..!..

    ..it is to put josie pagani in charge of labour..

    ..so that she can ‘sort it out’…

    ..got that..?

    ..pass the word..!..prepare yrslves..!..eh..?

  17. Not that anyone gives a sh1t, even me really, knowing your type, but fender and emergency mike, in mocking me as a victim of an assault (alleged if you like), your credibility as part of the caring left wing is shot to bits. I don’t care if you like me or the way I post, but bearing in mind I’ve never had a ban or ever been threatened with one and whether your natural instinct is to vent like a moron or not, your subject matter and method of attack does you no favours at all.
    I bet you wouldn’t dae direct the same victim baiting/bashing rubbish to a female in a similar circumstance. I am tough, as it happens, but what difference does that make? Shame on you.

    “I wish this blog had a blocking facility like Facebook, because I’m getting more than a bit tired of idiots having shit fights over nothing. If your first resort is to abuse people on the left, go and comment on Whalespew. They’d probably agree with most of what you post.”

    Dry your eyes, mate. :boohoo: :jerk: 😆

    • Paul 17.1

      Merry Christmas.
      Hope you have a great day.
      I wish you peace and happiness.

    • fender 17.2

      I used to like most of your comments, but lately you have started flying off the handle and abusing people here that I have over time gained much respect for. I’m sure you can identify and correct this worrying trend. Hope you have a merry xmas Al1en.

      • The Al1en 17.2.1

        Seriously, if you were sincere at all you’d apologise for posting what you did.
        If I were sincere I’d accept it and move on.

        Enjoy your festive season.

        • fender

          Yes it was insensitive of me to point out the disparity between your online abusive bullying behaviour and your RL situation where you suffered violence from an employer. I apologise Al1en.

          :no cheeky face muddying the waters:

    • Murray Rawshark 17.3

      Have a merry christmas and may you get all the help you need.

    • emergency mike 17.4

      “emergency mike, in mocking me as a victim of an assault”

      Sorry what? I have zero knowledge and zero opinion on your assault. I’ve never commented on it.

      I assume you’re refering the ‘One word away from needing food parcels’ thread where you asked me “So what sort of person does it take to mock a victim (or alleged if you prefer) of violence?” in regard to when it was acceptable to swear at someone online. Since you gave me no other clue as to what that was supposed to refer to, I responded along the line that you should be able to make your point towards such a person without swearing at them. That’s all.

      • The Al1en 17.4.1

        You replied to the post by fender at
        Yours being
        To which I sought a response which you quote above.

        Just because you’re feigning ignorance it doesn’t really excuse you. 😉

        • emergency mike

          Wow. My comment at replying to fender at was about your overuse of swearing. Looking again at fender’s comment I see he wrote ” dunno how that guy managed to knock you off your feet” I had no idea what that refered to, and I made no comment on it. So:

          Mocking you for swearing too much on The Standard – yes.
          Mocking you as as victim of assault – no.

  18. Entering in to the spirit of the season, consumerism, what did you buy yourself for christmas?

    I spent the hundy my old dear sent me on a synth plug in. Unlike me I’ve early adopted a product that’s still in early beta, but knowing the company as a quality purveyor of electronic instruments (owning Diva), and knowing they don’t do sales after the intro pricing, the money was burning a hole in my pocket.
    Meant to be all ravey davey sounding, I have no buyers remorse.


  19. philj 19

    Merry Christmas to you all. The Standard is a taonga. Together we have strength. Hope, passion, knowledge and truth will out….. eventually. Kia Kaha.

  20. Colonial Rawshark 20

    Merry Christmas all. Very proud to be a member of a group who stands by all Kiwis through both good times and tough. Go you Standardistas 😎

  21. NOT Grath McVicar 21

    Season’s Garrottings
    from the Sensible Sentencing Trust


    [lprent: don’t ]

  22. Brewer 22

    Hormones in milk can be dangerous
    By Corydon Ireland
    Harvard News Office

    The link between cancer and dietary hormones – estrogen in particular – has been a source of great concern among scientists, said Ganmaa, but it has not been widely studied or discussed.

    The potential for risk is large. Natural estrogens are up to 100,000 times more potent than their environmental counterparts, such as the estrogen-like compounds in pesticides. ..

    One study compared diet and cancer rates in 42 counties. It showed that milk and cheese consumption are strongly correlated to the incidence of testicular cancer among men ages 20 to 39. Rates were highest in places like Switzerland and Denmark, where cheese is a national food, and lowest in Algeria and other countries where dairy is not so widely consumed.

    Cancer rates linked to dairy can change quickly, said Ganmaa. In the past 50 years in Japan, she said, rising rates of dairy consumption are linked with rising death rates from prostate cancer – from near zero per 100,000 five decades ago to 7 per 100,000 today.


    in China and other countries that do not consume much milk or other dairy products, breast cancer rates are much, much lower. Prostate cancer, which affects one in six men in the U.S., affects less than one in 100,000 in China. In our country, most milk is gotten from breeds of cows that have been selectively bred over the centuries to be heavy milk-producers, thus their milk has high concentrations of growth hormones. One of these hormones, called IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Factor –1) is found in high concentrations in the blood of women who suffer from breast cancer and men who suffer from prostate cancer.


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