Open Mike 25/04/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 25th, 2018 - 186 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

186 comments on “Open Mike 25/04/2018”

  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1

    Anzac Day! Thanks guys.

    It seems like each year more stories emerge
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503462&objectid=11991138

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1

      There were just three days to execution for 168 condemned allied airmen facing a Nazi firing squad but Squadron Leader Phil Lamason hadn’t told his men and he was determined they’d survive.

      “When the 168 allied airmen arrived at Buchenwald Concentration Camp, they didn’t know what they were dealing with yet,” Mike Dorsey said.

      “And in Phil Lamason, the Germans didn’t know what they were dealing with yet, either.”

      • Stunned mullet 1.1.1

        ..and like so many of that generation hardly ever spoke of their tribulations, obviously an extraordinary person.

    • Bearded Git 1.2

      Boycotting Herald

    • Sanctuary 2.1

      Boycott the Herald! Even if you read something you want to post, Google it and find the link on another news site.

      • Incognito 2.1.1

        Real news gets rehashed a zillion times within one news-cycle and can be found anywhere on the Web. Opinion pieces are more isolated and unique to one website; I tend to go by author rather than headline (apparently, authors don’t write headlines but I don’t know whether this (also) applies to opinion pieces). I used to be an avid reader of the NZH but rarely read anything there nowadays and usually leave quickly and disappointed. Life is too short to waste on NZH; I want & need enriching experiences!

      • xanthe 2.1.2

        Yes boycott the herald!

        Also boycott herald advertisers and let them know why!

  2. Jenny 3

    Thanks Guys!

    Lost in all the other news of the day

    The Crown has backed down in taking Russel Norman and Sara Howel to court. (for now at least) And have asked for negotiations with Greenpeace.

    The case was set down for two weeks and was supposed to start next Monday, in the Napier District Court.

    The defence case was to rely on expert witnesses on the dangers of climate change most notable among them James Hansen of NASA fame.

    Greenpeace Trial Witnesses Confirmed

    In this standoff between Greenpeace and the Crown, over the right to protest against deep sea oil drilling, in the face of Russel and Sara’s courageous defiance, it appears the Crown has blinked first.

    In these newly opened negotiations, the Crown no doubt, will be offering all sorts of blandishments to try and get Greenpeace to call off these very effective protests.

    And no doubt these blandishments, will be accompanied by threats if Greenpeace don’t comply.

    Because if this case ever does proceed, it threatens to open a whole big ugly can of worms for the government.

    Putting a spotlight on the government’s much publicised opposition to deep sea oil drilling is more sizzle than sausage. Hence the latest back-down.

    I imagine that the Crown’s blandishments will probably include an agreement by the Crown to drop all legal action against Greenpeace and Russel and Sara if they agree to stop their protests against oil prospecting.

    The threats will be probably include legal action to seize Greenpeace’s assets and funds if they don’t comply.

    “Greenpeace protest: Russel Norman committed for trial”

    (Now canceled pending ongoing negotiations).

    • savenz 3.2

      Good news about Greenpeace.

      I also would not describe the government as ‘backing down’, more stopping this stupid show trial that is morally wrong, takes away people’s rights for freedom of speech and protest and confirms to the world that NZ is far from ‘100% pure, clean and green’.

      • Jenny 3.2.1

        Yeah this is great news. Thank you savenz

        I actually wrote, “The Crown has backed down….“.

        A subtle difference I know, but reflecting the fact that the Crown not the government is (or was), taking this highly charged political case against Greenpeace, using repressive holdover legislation passed by the last government.

        The Labour Government, ‘thank the stars’ is not the enemy here.

        If cooler heads in the Government has called on the Crown to back off, is up to others to say.

        The next step for any progressive legislature would be to remove this repressive piece of legislation from the statute books.

        As I have said earlier, if Muldoon in the apartheid era had acted in a similar way to make protesting against Springbok games in New Zealand illegal, tens of thousands of New Zealanders would have been detained and put on trial.

        As Russel Norman said, This law is “Repugnant“.

        It must go.

      • Bearded Git 3.2.2

        Hope Greepeace get costs

        • Jenny 3.2.2.1

          Bearded Git, Greenpeace will get costs and everything else they might possibly want.

          But only on one condition;

          That they agree to give up their highly effective protests in defiance of the Andarko Amendment and against deep sea oil prospecting.

          Greenpeace Aotearoa are at a watershed moment. Do they keep up their defiance against the law, or do they submit?

    • alwyn 3.3

      Is this story anywhere on the MSM?
      Surely something as significant as what you are talking about would have been reported somewhere.

      • Jenny 3.3.1

        You would thinks so wouldn’t you.

        But no. Just like everything else about this case.

        Our media toadies know what to report, and what not to report.

        And this is far too controversial a news story for them to touch.

        Repressive laws that impinge on civil liberties are never enacted on the front pages, but always behind closed doors. This is how democracy is strangled, quietly, with the assistance of the media’s consenting silence.

        And before all the naysayers get up in arms; Democracy if it means anything at all, is more than just having the right to vote, this is demonstrated by the fact that the right to protest is one of the first things to go under a repressive takeover. And even in liberal democracies like New Zealand is always under pressure from the Right.

      • tracey 3.3.2

        And yet alwyn, it is not. What do you make of that?

        • Incognito 3.3.2.1

          🙂

        • alwyn 3.3.2.2

          Where did Jenny get the story from?
          I don’t understand why there is nothing about the story anywhere
          I can’t even find a statement by Greenpeace about the matter, which seems rather surprising as they have had a lot of comments about the case in the past. It is hard to see how they would be cowed about commenting on the topic.
          Is her story really accurate?

          • Jenny 3.3.2.2.1

            Oh, what’ll you do now, my blue-eyed son?

            Oh, what’ll you do now, my darling young one?

            I’m a-goin’ back out ’fore the rain starts a-fallin’

            I’ll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest

            Where the people are many and their hands are all empty

            Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters

            Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison

            Where the executioner’s face is always well hidden*

            Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten

            Where black is the color, where none is the number

            And I’ll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it

            And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it

            Then I’ll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin’

            But I’ll know my song well before I start singin’

            And it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard

            It’s a hard rain’s a-gonna fall

            *(My emphasis. J.)

          • tracey 3.3.2.2.2

            Ah, is jenny lying and making it up you mean?

            • alwyn 3.3.2.2.2.1

              No I don’t. I am asking if there could be a mistake.
              If I thought what you suggest I could merely refer to her as being Dr Clark.

          • joe90 3.3.2.2.3

            I’ve had a good look and the most recent news is that Russel Norman and volunteer Sara May Howell are set to stand trial in the Napier District Court at the end of this month.

            But with two days left there’s not a sausage on the justice/courts websites, so there could well be unreported developments.

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12033399

          • Jenny 3.3.2.2.4

            The mysterious disappearing court case.

          • tracey 3.3.2.2.5

            alwyn, what do you mean by “alot”, I see a few but they put out alot of press releases every year. See what I did there?

            • alwyn 3.3.2.2.5.1

              Perhaps you could tell me where I used “alot”. If so I might be able to advise you.
              What I see here is you are simply making that word up. I don’t think I have ever used it. Where, if ever, did I actually make your mistake?
              https://www.google.com/search?q=alot&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-NZ:IE-Address&ie=&oe=

              • In Vino

                Sneaky and disingenuous, Alwyn. You used the more traditionally correct phrase ‘a lot’. Tracey misspelt it as ‘alot’. Not difficult for you to work out… I think you know damned well what you wrote back in 3.3.2.2 “surprising as they have had a lot of comments about the case in the past.” Trying to evade, as usual when taxed, and projecting wrongfulness onto others, also as usual.
                We need better trolls.

                • alwyn

                  I haven’t the faintest idea what Tracey is talking about. With her that is unusual as she is normally quite clear and to the point.
                  On the other hand your comment is equally opaque. With you it is, of course, the completely normal state of affairs. You never make any sense.

                  • Incognito

                    Odd, I thought she’s been right on the button each time in this thread. Never mind we will never know what Alwyn really thinks or means 😉

                    • In Vino

                      Good Lord, Alwyn. I quoted your own use of ‘a lot’ and pointed out that Tracey had misspelt it as ‘alot’. I showed you which bit of your message at 3.3.2.2
                      If you were an honest commenter, you would have gone back, checked what Tracey’s question was, and honestly tried to answer it. You haven’t. Tracey’s valid question remains unanswered.
                      Your choosing to see ‘nussing’ like Private Schultz from Hogans’ Heroes makes you a poor type of escapist, who runs away from real debate with trite insults. You need to find a healthier pastime.

                  • Incognito

                    Alwyn, In Vino replied to my comment (see link) but it is clearly meant for you 😉

                    @ In Vino 25 April 2018 at 7:59 pm https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-04-2018/#comment-1478568

                    I don’t expect you to answer Tracey’s questions because that’s not your MO, but insulting our intelligence is a new twist in your feeble attempts to refuse answering valid questions. It is also considered rude …

                    • In Vino

                      No, Incognito. The thread had gone past normal ‘reply’ thing, so I went back to the last one hoping to get in at bottom of that lot. But someone else my have been doing the same. You? Meanwhile, reply tabs seem to have caught up. But why is there no ‘reply’ tab under my 7.59pm comment?

                      Murky matters… But standard practice for Alwyn. Always evades when back-footed.

                    • alwyn

                      Perhaps you can tell me what her question means then.
                      She said “See what I did there?”.
                      The only thing I can see that she did was to misspell “a lot”.
                      What do you think she means by that question?

                    • In Vino

                      “Please explain”? Can’t tell what her question means? Here is her question: (I have changed alot to a lot just to help you.)

                      “alwyn, what do you mean by “a lot”, I see a few but they put out a lot of press releases every year. See what I did there?”

                      I see a few dumb people who are so old and out of it that they do not know the expression ‘See what I did there?’ meaning see what trick I pulled – meaning Tracy was aping your trick.

                      Questioning what ‘a lot’ meant. Maybe a few or very few?
                      Are you really so infantile as to need all this alwyn, or are you just a stinking troll?

                    • McFlock

                      Maybe to help relieve your bweilderment, Alwyn, you could go back and look for the comment where you initially used the term “a lot”, and look at Tracey’s comment in that context?

                • Incognito

                  In Vino, you have the patience of a Saint; you would make an excellent teacher 😉

                  • alwyn

                    Careful.
                    Unless he is registered this Government is planning to make it an offence to call anyone who isn’t “registered” a teacher. They might extend it to people like you using the phrase.

                    • Incognito

                      Seems you’re confused about a few things, Alwyn, or deliberately spreading disinformation …

                    • alwyn

                      Really?
                      This bill has been put forward by an MP which is part of the Government.
                      At every vote to date in the house all the Government Parties, Labour, New Zealand First and the Green Party voted for the bill to proceed.
                      National and ACT voted against.
                      Even someone like you would be very hard pressed to make a case that the Government is supporting this bill and its plans to fine people who call themselves a teacher without being registered.

                    • McFlock

                      With the liberties you take with the English language, Alwyn, you’d make an excellent half-rate property investor.

                      I’m not saying you are a half-rate property investor, just that if you did the required training and certification, one day you might be able to con enough people out of their home’s true value that you get a modest amount into your sham family trust before the courts catch up with you.

                    • alwyn

                      McFlock.
                      I presume you think you are saying something meaningful but you aren’t.
                      If you require help with your property speculation I suggest you should approach Ms Ardern. She seems to do very well at it.
                      By the way I hope you got a ticket for tail gating traffic on your moped. It is bloody dangerous and a stiff fine might encourage you to desist from such foolish behaviour.

                    • McFlock

                      It’s meaningful, you just don’t understand it.

                      Incognito said In Vino would make an excellent teacher, not that In Vino was actually a teacher. Your response of bleating about registration is just evidence of the fact that you need a good teacher.

                      I would recommend In Vino, but I’m not sure they’re registered…

            • alwyn 3.3.2.2.5.2

              @Tracey
              A quick trawl through their press releases found about 40 that relate to their protesting about the Amazon Warrior. I didn’t read them thoroughly. I find their literary style distinctly turgid.
              That is “a lot” in my opinion. If they can release that many Press Statements on the subject I would think it rather odd if they weren’t rejoicing if this case was not going ahead. They certainly came out with a release when the case was postponed in May last year.
              http://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/en/press/Government-delays-morally-repugnant-case-against-Greenpeace-activists/
              Hard to believe they didn’t sound off again if the postponement was true.
              Perhaps they are still, as a bunch of loyal Royalists, celebrating the birth of the third Cambridge brat.

              • In Vino

                Thank you Alwyn. It would have been better to do this 5 hours before you did, however.

  3. agora 4

    Would you buy a used car from Boris or Teresa ?

  4. Jenny 5

    Two brothers, Jamil and Ammar, fled Syria in 2012, with their wives and children. After four years waiting in Jordan, they finally received a visa and traveled to the United States as refugees. They arrived on Nov. 8, 2016, which happened to be Election Day. It was, of course, a loaded moment. In effect, the brothers and their families landed in one country and woke up the next morning in another.

    Since then, I have been reporting their stories and creating a “true comic” about their lives in America. I went to their mosques, schools and job-training programs. I was also there when Ammar’s family received a frightening death threat, which ultimately forced them to flee their town. Today the illustrator, Michael Sloan, and I bring you the final installment in their story. — Jake Halpern

    “Welcome to the New World”

  5. Carolyn_Nth 6

    So, it seems the Toronto van suspected killer was a terrorist – advocating violence against women and the men who consort with them: referred to as “chads” and “stacys”. He was part of a group calling themselves “incel” – linked to alt-right forums.

    The man who plowed a van into a crowded Toronto street on Monday, killing 10 people and injuring 15, wrote a Facebook post announcing an “incel rebellion” and hailing the UC Santa Barbara shooter shortly before carrying out the attack. “Incel” is the name adopted by an online community of men who consider themselves “involuntarily celibate” and advocate violence against women. The killer’s Facebook post was first reported by the Canadian news network Global News and has been confirmed as real by Facebook.

    4chan, as you probably know, is a popular message board where alt-rightists and other people with abhorrent political beliefs congregate. “Chads and Stacys” are terms used in the incel community to refer to conventionally attractive men and women who are sexually active.

    • One Two 6.1

      Such events are unlikely to be what they seem…

      The script appears to have shifted towards the so named ‘alt right’ carrying out the act…it’s a change from the more ‘traditional terrorist’ cover story…

      These events are carried out by people with mental health issues…not to mention whichever insidious structure sits behind them…

      Incel…might as well be ISIS…although I suspect the ‘ISIS’ cover has run it’s course…’alt right’ will be the go to…

      • Carolyn_Nth 6.1.1

        Well, yes, they could have mental health issues, but like ISIS, they have a political agenda. Most people with mental health issues don’t advocate violence against those they hate.

        Apparently Incel stands for “involuntarily celibate”

        A guy who claims to have been researching Toronto’s relationship to the alt-right has been tweeting about it: Arshy Mann twitter profile says he’s a journalist reporting on LGBT issues.

        “Incel” refers to “involuntary celibate,” essentially meaning that a person can’t get laid because of their looks/personality. The incels make up one segment of the broader “manosphere”, a collection of online masculinist communities that interplay with one another.

        “Incel” was a term actually coined by a queer Toronto woman in the 90s to give a name to how she was feeling at the time. It morphed into something horrific. “I can’t uninvent this word, nor restrict it to the nicer people who need it.”

        Self-described incels today are almost entirely men who are laser-focused on their inability to have sex & blame women. Of the manosphere communities, incels are the most virulently misogynistic.

        Incels differ in important ways from Men’s Rights Activists. While both movements are misogynistic at their core, MRAs deploy a human rights framework to argue men are oppressed. Incels don’t talk about rights, they just hate.

        The path to radicalization for incels often starts with the Red Pill/Pick-Up Artist communities. They try to utilize the pseudo-scientific/dehumanizing seduction techniques, still can’t get laid & become infuriated. That’s the path Elliot Rodger went down.

        To clarify, the manosphere is a catch-all term that refers to a number of online male communities that overlap, branch off, interface & oppose each other in complicated ways. It includes pick-up artists, men’s rights activists, incels, men going their own way etc.

        An important point: if Minassian was an incel & the author of that Facebook post, his attack should probably be described as terrorism, although the lone wolf variety. Incels have an ideology & the goal is to terrorize women & “normies.”

        Incels & the broader manosphere are an important component of what we’ve come to think of as the alt-right (depending on your definition of that term). Misogyny is the most common gateway drug to other forms of hate.

        More tweets in this thread, and replies, in the link above.

        • One Two 6.1.1.1

          Incels…Manosphere…

          The path to radicalization for incels often starts with the Red Pill/Pick-Up Artist communities. They try to utilize the pseudo-scientific/dehumanizing seduction techniques, still can’t get laid & become infuriated. That’s the path Elliot Rodger went down

          Arshy Mann (man)

          Edit: 6.1.2 your second pararaph…preyed on and used as dupes…yes…the agenda has now changed…to incel…

        • mike s 6.1.1.2

          “Well, yes, they could have mental health issues”

          could??

          Are you suggesting by saying ‘could’ that they might not have mental health issues or in other words that they might be completely normal, rational and sane?

          FFS! I would absolutely guarantee that someone who murders 10 people in cold blood and then begs the police to shoot him in the head has mental health issues. No sane person, regardless of their political leanings, would do this.

          The statement of yours quoted above should read “Well, yes, they obviously have mental health issues”

          • Carolyn_Nth 6.1.1.2.1

            I disagree. I did not know a lot about the alleged perp when I made the comment you refer to, other than that he was linked to Incel.

            I feel it’s important to be cautious about attributing mental illness to all people who commit mass murder, because the evidence so far seems to say otherwise. Most of the research on this is with respect to mass shootings. And psychologists conclude that most mass shooters are not mentally ill.

            https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minding-the-mind/201802/mass-shooting-and-the-myth-the-violent-mentally-ill

            The linked article says that people tend to attribute mental illness to violent acts that most people find incomprehensible. They also say most mentally ill people are not violent – psychologists tend to want to break that connection.

            Associating mental illness with violence is, in a certain respect, a natural reaction to an action that to most people seems unfathomable.

            They argue that it is dangerous to jump to such conclusions, even though it is understandable why many people do make that jump.

            So, I was being cautious in my earlier comment.

      • Carolyn_Nth 6.1.2

        RNZ hs reported much the same stuff about the alleged perp re-Incel. But it also says he had attended a school for special needs students. It seems he was not good at forming social relationships.

        So, like ISIS, this Incel mob seems to recruit some vulnerable people who have been let down by the system, and feeds them a political line of hate.

    • joe90 6.2

      Perhaps he was using his freedom of speech to express himself.

      /

      UPDATE: Facebook confirms to CBC's Matthew Braga @mattbraga that the post from Alek Minassian referencing "The Incel Rebellion" and Elliot Rodger is real, and was posted publicly on his profile before Facebook shut it down.— CBC News Alerts (@CBCAlerts) April 24, 2018

      In an assortment of threads that popped up after the news media began to report on a supposed Facebook post from Minassian announcing that “the Incel Rebellion has … begun,” some of the Incels.me regulars are celebrating the killings and the alleged killer as “life fuel” for them and their nihilistic, misogynistic, misanthropic “movement.” (Click on the pics below to see the comments in context on Incels.me.)

      http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/#more-29754

    • tracey 6.3

      Silly girl Carolyn, advocating and committing violence against women isn’t terrorist activity. If it were, we would have alot less of it 😉

    • tracey 7.1

      I will be interested to see how much uptake this gets in the media and if it will then be taken over by the ” everyone wins” sarcastic, PC screaming element (Hosking, Richardson, Garner come to mind )

      • mike s 7.1.1

        Hopefully none because it’s a non issue. It’s just someone’s opinion.

        As far as I know there isn’t a sport in existence where the aim of the game isn’t to win or get the highest score. That’s what sport is about. Obviously, not winning is not the end of the world and there’s no place for winning at all costs, but you still play to win, even if playing for fun.

        Yes, heaps of people play sport for fun, but the aim when playing for fun is still to win. You can’t not play to win in sport because all sports include some form of winning as the entire purpose of the sport. You can’t play football for fun and not have goals, because scoring goals is the entire purpose of football.

        That’s what sport is, a competition. Either against an opponent or trying to beat your own personal best. training is done to play sport better and so incorporates sport. Everything else, including exercising for health or vanity, is not a sport.

        If anyone can’t understand that, then they’ve never played and enjoyed sports and will never get it.

    • monty 7.2

      It is interesting that comes up. Seems to be a round about.

      Growing up all sport was win or lose, a game of bull rush would happening on the school fields during break time, playing tiggy, hide and seek all forms of winning and losing.

      From memory almost all kids played some form of school sport or club sport it was the done thing.

      But we didn’t have playstations, xboxes we had a say 3 TV channels ollie olson (excuse me if I spelt his name wrong) was presenting the afternoon kids show.

      All the neighbourhood kids you used to get out and play together in the park or a cul-de-sac nearby. There was generally a winning side and losing side.

      A few years back when soccer/football NZ came up with the no score rule for kid’s games. I went with my niece and nephew to a couple of their games toed the party line and said its about getting out and having fun not the score. After the game, the kids were asking what the score was and wanted to know who won.

      I did have to admit chuckling when the coach said ok is ABC’s turn to be player of the day. Which was my niece who made a lovely daisy chain while playing right back.

      Perhaps participation is dropping due to other factors cost or other forms of entertainment and not that kids feel pressured by winning or losing.

  6. Herodotus 9

    A gifted song writer and someone who was ahead of his time. There were some great things from the 70’s.
    Reasons to be Cheerful 1,2 3

    And

    Bit not for everyone !!

  7. Agora 10

    I agree. Efaristo ..

  8. james 11

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/04/government-did-no-cost-benefit-analysis-on-oil-and-gas-ban.html

    “Government did no cost-benefit analysis on oil and gas ban”

    Perhaps its because of the drop in emissions – ahhh nope:

    “There’s also been no estimates on whether global greenhouse gas emissions will fall as a result of the decision.

    “No specific estimate has been provided to me. I have been advised by officials that the effect on global emissions depends on the response of New Zealand’s large gas users.”

    Perhaps we will all save $ at the pump? – not looking good either:

    “”No specific estimate has been provided to me on the price impact on gas of the decision to grant no further offshore oil and gas exploration permits. Officials have advised that gas prices have risen in the past when the supply of gas has been constrained,” Dr Woods said.”

    Consultation with industry? Also – nope.

    “No formal consultation was undertaken with PEPANZ in relation to the decision to grant no further offshore oil and gas exploration permits.”

    Brilliant decision making:

    No idea of the cost
    No idea if it will actually achieve what they want
    No idea of impact
    No consultation.

    • savenz 11.1

      They didn’t do a cost benefit on TPPA either, but don’t recall you complaining then.

      Oil and gas are scum as per the 29 dead Pike river miners whose families did not even get an attempt at a rescue, nor a recovery of bodies or even the compensation for the families. And Mobil weaselled out of paying to clean up after itself in the Tank Farm in Auckland.

      • james 11.1.1

        “They didn’t do a cost benefit on TPPA either, but don’t recall you complaining then.”

        Citation – I believe a lot of financial analysis was done. Link to back up your claim?

        “Oil and gas are scum”

        A nice constructive, insightful analysis backing up your argument.

        I actually believe thats about the level of thought Jacinda and co gave as well.

        All slogans and nothing to back it up.

      • joe90 11.1.2

        even the compensation for the families

        The families split Whittall’s blood money, $3.41 million, between them, the ACC compensation is expected to be anything between $10 million and $20 million in total, and PRC has been ordered by the courts to pay a substantial amount.

    • Bearded Git 11.2

      World 1 Gas Guzzlers 0 James.

      Solar power is halving in cost every 2-3 years.

      • James 11.2.1

        And your comment is based on the same lack of any information as was the governments.

        No estimate on reduction of global emissions was done.

        Because – feelings and slogans !

          • mike s 11.2.1.1.1

            I tried the solar calculator here:

            https://www.energywise.govt.nz/tools/solar-calculator/

            Unfortunately for me, under current conditions, after 25years of solar use I would have lost 200bucks.

            Doesn’t matter anyway because I don’t own a house and probably never will so don’t have any choice about solar or not (currently).

            One thing I don’t get is why would you pay thousands and thousands of dollars to install a solar power solution and then remain connected to the grid? Surely the whole idea is to get off the grid and generate your own power (or a group of neighbours together) so you no longer need to have anything to do with any power company? (Especially since they only pay around 25% of what they charge you per unit you sell them currently) (I think)

            • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.1.1.1

              One thing I don’t get is why would you pay thousands and thousands of dollars to install a solar power solution and then remain connected to the grid?

              To me staying connected to the grid brings the benefits of distributed generation. Not sunny over Westport? Not a problem. The sun over Christchurch will keep the refrigerator going. Or the wind generators over by Stewart Island. Or the solar panels in Auckland. Or the geothermal in Rotorua.

              Surely the whole idea is to get off the grid and generate your own power (or a group of neighbours together) so you no longer need to have anything to do with any power company?

              That’s actually the expensive way. It’s what we’ve been told over the last thirty years as we’ve been instructed to become super-independent individuals but it’s actually a bad idea. Doing that brings more bureaucracy, more costs in advertising and dead-weight loss in profit.

              Much better to have a state monopoly installing and maintaining the power infrastructure across the country including the solar panels on your roof.

              (Especially since they only pay around 25% of what they charge you per unit you sell them currently) (I think)

              Sounds about right.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.3

      There’s also been no estimates on whether global greenhouse gas emissions will fall as a result of the decision.

      No formal consultation was undertaken with PEPANZ in relation to the decision to grant no further offshore oil and gas exploration permits.

      Actually irrelevant.

      We know that we have to stop burning oil and the best way to do that is to leave it in the ground. The industry, having known about global warming for decades, knew that this decision was coming and should have planned for it rather than now whinging about it.

      It’s the only economic decision we could make.

      No specific estimate has been provided to me on the price impact on gas of the decision to grant no further offshore oil and gas exploration permits. Officials have advised that gas prices have risen in the past when the supply of gas has been constrained,” Dr Woods said.
      The pricing system is there to, get this, restrict the use of scarce resources. So, if the price goes up then it’s actually doing its job.

      • james 11.3.1

        “We know that we have to stop burning oil and the best way to do that is to leave it in the ground”

        Of course – you miss the big point that we arnt leaving it in the ground we are just shipping it from the other side of the world.

        “It’s the only economic decision we could make.”
        – citation (as you are fond of asking for) – as there is nothing to back that up at all – its all ideological.

        • Draco T Bastard 11.3.1.1

          Of course – you miss the big point that we arnt leaving it in the ground we are just shipping it from the other side of the world.

          Actually, I’m not. We can, and will, stop shipping it from the other side of the world in time as well as well as stopping extraction from NZ.

          – citation (as you are fond of asking for) – as there is nothing to back that up at all – its all ideological.

          No, climate change isn’t ideological you fool. It’s simple reality and not the delusion that you subscribe to.

          It goes like this:

          We have a set amount of fossil fuels that we can burn. Depending upon which research you mention we’ve either already passed that point or we’re very near to it. Either way, we can’t afford to continue extracting and burning fossil fuels thus we need to decrease the amount being extracted so as to decrease the amount being burned.

          NZ is only a small country and we can only do our part but it is a part that must be done.

          • james 11.3.1.1.1

            “Actually, I’m not. We can, and will, stop shipping it from the other side of the world in time as well as well as stopping extraction from NZ.”

            Wrong – just wrong.

            Anyway – as per the original point – Labour have done ZERO research on this (as per the oia request). Its not thought out either in impact or even if it will achieve what they want it to

            Its armature hour at the beehive and thank goodness National will overturn this as soon as getting back into power.

            • Draco T Bastard 11.3.1.1.1.1

              Wrong – just wrong.

              It’s inevitable. Climate change dictate that we shift to renewables.

              Anyway – as per the original point – Labour have done ZERO research on this (as per the oia request).

              And it remains irrelevant.

              We do not actually have a choice. We must stop burning fossil fuels.

              Its armature hour at the beehive and thank goodness National will overturn this as soon as getting back into power.

              Have you noticed all the reports of damage that National did that are now coming to light?

              Yeah, that the result of a bunch of ideological amateurs known as National.

          • Grantoc 11.3.1.1.2

            Can someone tell me why the government hasn’t treated the coal industry in the same way that it’s treated the oil and gas industry?

            After all the coal industry is a greater contributor to climate warming than oil and gas.

            • Jenny 11.3.1.1.2.1

              Laziness?

              Energy Minister, No work on Coal has been done

              “We have made no announcements about ending coal, and we certainly haven’t done any work,” she [Megan Woods]* told Q+A.

              “What I’m saying is there are no plans to do that. We haven’t done anything.”

              “We haven’t done anything” ?!?

              What the Hell?

              Are we to understand that Megan Woods hasn’t done anything on coal, despite receiving a petition from climate change groups calling on the Energy Minister to take a stand on this issue?

              “SIGN THE PETITION: STOP TE KUHA COALMINE”

              At a time when our government is claiming that climate change is our generation’s “nuclear-free moment,” and has recently said that there will be no new coal mines on conservation land, it must say no to this mountaintop removal. Without access to this precious DOC land, the mine is unlikely to go ahead.

              Hon Dr Megan Woods (Minister of Energy and Resources) and Hon Eugenie Sage (Minister of Conservation), have the power to stop this mine.

              Call on Megan Woods and Eugenie Sage to live up to their words, and pull the plug on this dirty and short-sighted project. Sign the petition here:

              https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/stop-te-kuha-coal-mine

              SHARE THIS:

              http://coalaction.org.nz/petition/sign-petition-stop-te-kuha-coalmine

              *[My annotation], – J.

              • Grantoc

                Thanks Jenny

                So; so much for Ardern’s ‘nuclear moment’; more like expediency and hollow words wins the day – again.

                I don’t recall Lange equivocating in this way when he announced a true ‘nuclear moment’. Then, there was no equivocation – it was sticking to beliefs, principles and values come what may.

                Ardern and her government diminish the ‘nuclear moment’ concept.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  And you’d be complaining even more if they simply shutdown all of the present operating wells and search grids while having a ‘nuclear moment’.

                  • Grantoc

                    Not complaining Draco

                    Just observing.

                    And just wondering if Ardern and company are avoiding addressing the issue of coal production and use in their climate change policy ‘nuclear moment’ because of their historical and sentimental links to that industry. Hence their political expediency and selectivity on climate change policy.

        • tracey 11.3.1.2

          Alt Fact: If we stop producing oil here we’ll just have to import more oil from overseas.

          Truth: New Zealand’s vehicles already run almost entirely on imported oil.

          Alt Fact: Stopping oil and gas exploration will lead to more climate emissions.

          Truth: Any oil and gas we keep in the ground is oil and gas that can’t be burnt and can’t increase global emissions.

          Alt Fact: Exporting New Zealand gas to developing countries will lower global emissions.

          Truth: We’re far better off investing in clean energy and exporting our expertise in renewables.
          Alt Fact: Oil and gas is one of the backbones of our economy and employs 11,000 people, whose jobs are destroyed by the move to stop new offshore exploration.

          Truth: Economies thrive with long term stability. Starting the clean energy transition now means no 80s-style economic shock, and long-term security for the clean energy industry.

          Oil and gas employs around 4,300 people directly and it’s really important that these workers and the communities that depend on this industry are supported to find sustainable livelihoods in other industries. The people with the best gauge of whether a decision is good or bad for workers are the trade unions that represent them. Importantly, the NZ Council of Trade Unions has welcomed the Government’s decision, which provides a long-term signal to the oil industry that they must now wind down and prioritise a transition plan for their workers. They say:

          “The whole point of a just transition is that actually, we know change is coming, it’s inevitable, and we are going to create high-paying sustainable jobs that match people’s skills. You’d almost think from the reaction from the oil and gas industry that the rug was being pulled out from under working people overnight. The Government and the union movement have been very clear that a transition plan, particularly for affected regions is the right way to go.”

          Let’s not forget that the energy transition is also an enormous economic and job opportunity. Clean energy produces four times more jobs than the oil industry. In the US, solar jobs are growing as much as 12 times faster than the rest of the economy. In New Zealand, clean energy could provide 25,000 new jobs. A recent Westpac report found that taking steps to address climate change now will save the New Zealand economy $30 billion dollars, compared to delaying our response.

          Alt Fact: The lights will go out and energy will cost more.

          Truth: Oil and gas cost money – but sunshine and wind are free! Renewable energy is already cheap and has the potential to be much much cheaper.

          Alt Fact: We shouldn’t wind down oil and gas until we have clean energy to replace it.

          Truth: Saying no to future gas is vital to getting more clean energy into the system.

          Alt Fact: Restricting oil and gas supply is a waste of time – we need to tackle at the demand side.

          Truth: We need to address both supply and demand if we’re going to achieve the necessary cut in carbon emissions.

      • tracey 11.4.1

        When James asks for links he means that prove what he is saying. Anything else is not acceptable

  9. alwyn 12

    I wonder if Phil Twyford and his acolyte Genter will reconsider their mad approach of to building cycle tracks and putting trams into Auckland instead of continuing National’s policy of putting safer roads into Northland?
    Another serious crash on SH1 north of Auckland.
    Does the current Government really not give a damn about the people of the North?
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/northland/103375110/state-highway-1-blocked-three-people-injured-after-crash-near-whangarei
    That was the second serious crash in Northland within 12 hours I understand.

    • Andre 12.1

      That crash happened north of Whangarei. So even if National’s fantasies about holiday highways and bridges had been completely fulfilled, that particular bit of road would not have been improved. As far as I can tell, anyway.

      • alwyn 12.1.1

        I suppose you are going to applaud this little fiasco in Auckland itself?
        Never let it be said that this Government and its mates on the Auckland Council aren’t equal opportunity idiots.
        Do you really approve of this cycleway at Browns Bay?
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/103172374/auckland-transport-installs-cycle-lane-worsening-black-spot-north-shore-road-locals-say

        • Andre 12.1.1.1

          That … is a truly awesome non-sequitur you’ve come up with there, alwyn.

          • dukeofurl 12.1.1.1.1

            The cycle way boobs have been happening over the last 2 years alwyn
            https://www.noted.co.nz/life/urbanism/on-yer-bike-how-the-island-bay-cycleway-split-a-community/

            This government was ‘your government’ back then

            • alwyn 12.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m not really sure you can put the blame for the Island Bay fiasco on the National led Government. They certainly put up some money for cycling in urban areas but al least in Wellington the choice of where to put them was done by the Council. This one goes right to the door of the then Mayor, Green Party member (and one time Green List Candidate for Parliament) Celia Wade-Brown and her self chosen Deputy-Mayor and now Mayor, Labour’s Justin Lester.
              However the whole thing has been a disaster. The Council has been encouraging cyclists on hilly, narrow, winding roads that are simply not suitable for them. The Island Bay exercise was merely the most public one.
              There are places in Wellington City that are suitable for cycling. Miramar and Kilbirnie are fine. The CDB and the hill suburbs are not.
              As a pedestrian I have twice been run into on the footpath at Oriental Bay where cyclists travelling at high speed are allowed to share the footpath. They ride up from behind pedestrians at speed and you get no warning. Then they pass very close to people walking. On one occasion I was run into when I was on crutches. Even seeing that the person tried to pass me at a minimum clearance and bowled me.
              Bloody idiots are most of Wellington’s cyclists. Why can’t they treat it as recreation and ride at the weekends on the cycleways along the Hutt River?

    • Sacha 12.2

      Improving safety does not require building a 4-lane motorway from Whangarei as the Nats proposed (but did not plan or set aside any budget for).

      For instance, there was a well-crafted proposal earlier to improve the Puhoi to Wellsford corridor far faster and cheaper than by building the holiday highway: https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2010/08/11/operation-lifesaver-a-better-solution-for-puhoi-wellsford/

      The gold-plated RONS boondoggles have starved the regions of funding for simpler road safety improvements. If you want to blame someone, start with Nat voters.

      • Rosemary McDonald 12.2.1

        Sacha. Having just driven from Cable Bay to Whangarei I can verify your claim that 4 laning doth not necessarily equate to safety on our roads.

        What is needed is a fuckwit test that eliminates such from the driver population. I hazard this could be a simple blood test. Perhaps fuckwittedness is genetic and upon detection of said DNA the same needle could deliver instant and painless demise.

        Serious smash at Kauri just north of Whangarei earlier…do you think it inspired the fwit towing the boat to slow down after he nearly plowed into the traffic management truck controlling traffic around the crash site????

        • Sacha 12.2.1.1

          Imagine if every ten years we all had to re-sit our driving license including proof of defensive driving skills ..

          • Carolyn_Nth 12.2.1.1.1

            Imagine if there was a decent and affordable rail passenger service from Auckland to the north.

            I did 2 road trips to Wellsford in a week, a couple of weeks’ back, to work events. The 2nd one was done at late notice to cover for a staff member who had an unexpected bereavement.

            That drive is wearying in a work day. During the second trip I was musing on how much easier it would have been if there was a passenger rail service between Auckland and Wellsford – and there would be a couple of hours when I could have been working, while sitting on the train.

            The road option is fine for able bodied adults, before they get into old age, but not so great for others, young and old and differently abled.

            The Intercity bus followed me down the Dome Valley to Warkworth on the second return journey – a very big rig to be travelling the Dome Valley: not very frequent, and mostly expensive.

            Priorities?

            • mike s 12.2.1.1.1.1

              When you first said Auckland to the North I thought you meant the North North. Isn’t Wellsford just an outlying part of Auckland..hehe

              That said, I agree there should be passenger rail available from the top of the north to the bottom of the south. Not sure who pays for it but it should be there.. lol

          • alwyn 12.2.1.1.2

            That is a bloody good idea.
            However I would be very unhappy if they took my driver’s license away because the fuel warning light in my car came on while I was doing the test.
            Only about 90 km left before the car runs out.

          • Rosemary McDonald 12.2.1.1.3

            A simple breath test…like the alcohol limit thingy that locks the vehicle if the driver is over the limit…only this one would measure ‘hippocampus clearly functioning’ markers.

            Some roads are not great…but most of SH1 is fine…main problem is folks are simply too impatient.

            The fact that an accident, even if survived, is going to cost more time than just following along is a concept that escapes the gotta pass mob.

            • alwyn 12.2.1.1.3.1

              You know of such a test do you Rosemary?
              A nice simple breath test?
              Pray tell us where it is available. Personally I think that level 4 and level 5 autonomous vehicles will be everywhere long before your proposed test is available.
              By then of course we won’t need your test. Nobody will be driving cars.
              https://www.techrepublic.com/article/autonomous-driving-levels-0-to-5-understanding-the-differences/

              • tracey

                And when no one is driving cars, everyone will do the speed limit and drive tot he conditions. Shame we have to wait til then for some to understand the roads are not the problem, it’s how people drive on them that is fatal.

                • alwyn

                  According to most traffic engineers New Zealand roads ARE the problem.
                  If the current CoL take your opinion as being fact the will probably not make any attempt to fix the roads. This will leave them responsible for many deaths.
                  On the other hand they will have no reason to adopt the recommendation I saw recently that claimed that all undivided roads should have their speed limit reduced to 70 kph. I’m sure the Green Associate Minister is simply itching to bring that in but she won’t have any excuse to do it. Why reduce the speed limit on inferior roads if it isn’t the road that helps cause accidents?
                  Which way do you think they will go?
                  The NZTA certainly seems to think that improving the roads makes them safer. They say
                  “NZ Transport Agency Director of Safety and Environment Harry Wilson says these two roads have been selected for the new limit because they are two of the safest roads in New Zealand, with safety features such as median-barriers, no crossing roads, no tight curves and two lanes in each direction, which significantly reduces the risk of serious collisions occurring.”
                  Does he know less about it than you do?
                  https://nzta.govt.nz/media-releases/new-speed-limits-for-tauranga-eastern-link-and-cambridge-section-of-waikato-expressway/

                  • mike s

                    Most traffic engineers, etc obviously have some agenda when they say roads are the problem. Any good driver can drive a (modern, mechanically sound) car on rural rds in NZ at 100kph with no issues and no danger at all.

                    Our rural (or urban for that matter) are not perfect by any stretch but they’re sealed and signposted. If someone crosses the centreline and crashes into an oncoming vehicle then it will always be the driver’s fault (other than mechanical failure) not the roads. I can’t see how it could be the roads fault unless maybe a yet to be repaired pothole has opened up but even then, the driver should see that sort of thing and adjust accordingly.

                    Are there any stats which tell us what percentage of crashes have the road condition as the primary cause ?

                  • tracey

                    alwyn

                    You know people can do more than one thing at the same time ey?

                  • tracey

                    So there are no accident on good roads then alwyn?

                    • alwyn

                      Of course there are accidents on all roads Tracey. That statement of yours is rather like Genter claiming that her aim is zero road accident deaths. It isn’t going to happen.
                      On the good roads there are generally less of them and they are less serious. That is the difference.
                      Note that in particular circumstances you can improve the road and cause more accidents. They are generally much less serious though. For example on Centennial Highway north of Wellington they put in barriers between the lanes. It increased the number of accidents but reduced the serious injury and fatal ones as it pretty much cut out the head on ones.

            • mike s 12.2.1.1.3.2

              Or you could just pull over and let people pass?

              Whenever some one calls other drivers too impatient, it usually means that they themselves are the problem, they just can’t see it. (too busy toddling along at 70kph in the fast lane admiring the scenery no doubt)

              • McFlock

                I ride a 50cc scooter, and still end up tailgating people on main roads that have a speed limit higher than what my wee machine is capable of, lol

      • Draco T Bastard 12.2.2

        If you want to blame someone, start with Nat voters.

        As per normal with National voters alwyn’s been trying very hard to make all the fuckups by National not his responsibility despite the fact that he voted for them and supported those fuckups.

    • dukeofurl 12.3

      Alwyn your government had around 100 road safety police vacancies as safety wasnt a priority.
      breath testing was no longer a safety priority and the numbers were cut by 40%.

      While ministers cant direct police operations, the Road Transport budget funded $100s of millions of police duty on roads under contract. ( ie specific numbers of breath tests etc)

      Guess who was Transport Minister when the cut to the police road safety budget was done. Simon Bridges.
      *

      • tracey 12.3.1

        And apparently rural cycleways are great cos the wealthy Auckland and Wellington peepes get to go on glamping style cycle tours… but cycle ways in our cities, god forbid

    • mac1 12.4

      Alwyn, you need to look at the statistics.

      A quick look even by a non-statistician like me shows that in 2016 NZ north of Auckland, including the Far North, Whangarei and Kaipara in MoT stats, then there were 199 accidents in the Far North, 185 in Whangarei, and 57 in Kaipara causing injury.

      441 accidents causing injury north of Auckland in 365 days. On average, one accident every 20 hours.

      Two accidents in twelve hours is statistically not unusual.

      How many of these accidents were due to the state of the road?

      How many to excessive speed, alcohol and drugs, carelessness, risk-taking, tiredness, etc?

      • alwyn 12.4.1

        I don’t think my comment implied in any way that 2 accidents was “unusual”.
        However did you notice that, from the statistics you quoted, the ratio for accidents/thousand population is 2.6 for the area north of Auckland but only 2.06 for the country as a whole?
        What causes it is beyond my knowledge but I suspect that poor roads is a major contributor. National was at least planning to help improve that, even if only for SH1. This Government seems far more interested in other things, like trams and cycle tracks in Auckland.

        • mac1 12.4.1.1

          Alwyn, you wrote “That was the second serious crash in Northland within 12 hours I understand.”

          Why did you write that, if not for the purpose of flagging some extraordinary event?

          I cannot explain why north of Auckland is more dangerous. We need more than suspicion, though.

          Which is why I called you on your poor use of stats to try and make a political point.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 12.4.1.1.1

            “I cannot understand why north of Auckland is more dangerous.” – No Bridges?

          • In Vino 12.4.1.1.2

            @mac1 Do not expect alwyn to argue fairly. He dallies but fails to reply when really taxed. If you are winning, he will not reply. He is a troll. He will pop up later with the usual dross.

          • alwyn 12.4.1.1.3

            I confess I am horrified to find that 2 serious accidents in the area north of Auckland within 12 hours is considered to be normal.
            I wasn’t meaning to highlight it as being unusual though. You are always going to get a lot of accidents on second-rate, narrow, busy, undivided roads.
            That was something National was planning to fix up on at least the busiest bit of SH1 in the north. The CoL prefers trams though, even though they will be white elephants before they are even finished.

            • mac1 12.4.1.1.3.1

              Alwyn, since you continue to push the line that National is safer, here is what Minister Twyford intends.

              http://www.radiolive.co.nz/home/articles/the-am-show/2018/04/new-zealand-roads–twyford-and-collins-go-head-to-head-.html

              “Mr Twyford said safety is the Government’s priority, saying that can be achieved through features like passing lands, pull-over bays and median barriers.

              “NZTA [New Zealand Transport Association] advised me if we spend $800m on highly targeted safety improvements (we) save 160 lives every year,” he said.

              “We are spending about the same on roads generally, but we are spending it right across the country. We are not pork barrelling billions of dollars on a few hand-picked projects.”

            • mac1 12.4.1.1.3.2

              Alwyn, “I confess I am horrified to find that 2 serious accidents in the area north of Auckland within 12 hours is considered to be normal.”

              I didn’t say that.

              It is statistically possible.

              What i said was that in 2016, the last year for data I found, there was one injury accident every twenty hours on average north of Auckland.

              As you correctly note, Northland, along with other regional roads, has a higher injury accident rate than the big cities with their separated motorways and urban speed restrictions.

              How would you feel about speed restrictions back to 80km/h on two-lane unseparated country roads such as the French secondary road system will go to on July 1, down from 90km/h?

              “Several previous (French) governments had toyed with the idea as a means of reducing highway deaths, which reached nearly 3,500 in 2016, but backed off in the face of widespread public opposition.

              About 55% of those deaths – 1,911 victims – occurred on the 400,000km of so-called secondary roads across France, two-lane routes with no separating guardrail.”

        • tracey 12.4.1.2

          and poverty, and teachers and health… the bastards

  10. savenz 13

    Brave protest and decisions from young women around the world on this issue. Could there be parallels between sports boycotting that eventually led to the end of apartheid in South Africa?

    “The reaction to Lorde’s issues over her decision not to perform in Israel pales in comparison to the firestorm of fury that has erupted over Natalie Portman’s refusal to accept the $US1 million Genesis Prize aka “the Jewish Nobel” if Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu was to be present at the award ceremony. Her problem? The treatment of Palestinians in Gaza, up to and including the recent shootings of Gaza protesters.”

    from http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1804/S00088/on-why-france-could-become-our-closest-ally-in-europe.htm

  11. Adrian Thornton 14

    The Tories and their pals get so caught up in their own lying (re; Salisbury) that they turn their own propaganda into farce and humiliation….

    BBC – Skripal poisoning: Salisbury clean-up begins in bench area

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43876669

  12. james 15

    What really went down with the Health Minister.

    Lots more of this to come I would guess – esp given that claims made are proving to be false.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/103249836/middlemore-hospital-what-really-went-down-between-health-minister-and-counties-manukau-dhb

    • joe90 15.1

      My reply yesterday to Tuppence, who posted the same link.

      National didn’t give a rats about a hospital with shit all over the shop because, surplus….

      Timeline

      • 2012 – Large cladding panel falls off the Scott Building. Checks reveal weathertightness problems and leaking. Leaks also fund at Manukau SuperClinic

      • 2013 – Leaks found at Kidz First

      • 2014 – Leaks found at McIndoe Building

      • 2016 – Leaking issues outlined to Ministry of Health, according to DHB

      • Mid-2016 Auditor-General’s report shows Counties Manukau reporting it had 89 per cent life left in its buildings

      • 2017 – Sewage and sanitation problems are again raised with the board

      • Feb 2017 – Treasury rates Counties Manukau among top half of DHBs for repairs and maintenance

      • Mid-2017 – DHB commissions first overall expert appraisal of buildings

      • Nov 2017 – Independent surveyor Alexander and Co report for DHB outlines problems with buildings

      • November 22 – DHB Strategic Assessment Case sets out $123m worth of work across multiple buildings. That amount is now known to be an underestimate.

      • Feb 21, 2018 – Counties Manukau DHB appears before health select committee. No mention of specific problems are raised.

      • March 13 – David Clark visits Middlemore, where he says he was told about rot, mould and sewage in Scott Building but no other buildings.

      • March 20 (circa) – Government approves additional $11.5m towards repairs in Scott Building

      • March 22 – RNZ reports based on OIA that four hospital buildings are full of rot and mould. Health Minister David Clark says he knew about only one, the Scott

      • March 23 – Former Health Minister Jonathan Coleman says he was not briefed about extent of problems at Middlemore. Clark says he expects DHB to outline plan for managing the issues. Email from Gloria Johnson to board members say documents handed to Clark and his adviser “spells out succinctly the scale and nature of the facilities issues”

      • March 27 – DHB says it did not do repairs because Coleman wanted it to stay in surplus

      • March 28 – DHB confirms report of sewage leaks in Scott Building

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12036681

      Open Mike 24/04/2018

      • James 15.1.1

        How about a link verifying the “shit all over the shop” as you claim – you know since it has proven to be a lie and all.

        • joe90 15.1.1.1

          The pissing and moaning of former employee, arsed for what can be assumed to be his piss poor performance, ain’t proof, Jimmy.

          • Cinny 15.1.1.1.1

            + 100%

          • james 15.1.1.1.2

            So – you have nothing to backup the claim of ““shit all over the shop” – not one photo – not one report to back it up.

            • joe90 15.1.1.1.2.1

              I don’t need to do zip, because arguing that your mob isn’t responsible for the spread of vancomycin-resistant enterococcus is a such good look, eh.

              The National Party, the party of shit leaks and deadly infections has quite the ring to it, don’t ya reckon, Jimmy.

              .

              Up to 50 people to one toilet, a leaking sewer pipe and an insufficient number of handwash basins – a damning report has outlined Middlemore Hospital’s failures during an outbreak of a contagious and potentially fatal bacteria.

              Documents released to the Herald on Sunday under the Official Information Act identify several “risk factors” that could have spread vancomycin-resistant enterococcus (VRE) through the hospital’s dialysis unit between October 2012 and May last year.

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11351817

              • james

                “I don’t need to do zip, because arguing that your mob isn’t responsible for the spread of vancomycin-resistant enterococcus is a such good look, eh.”

                I was simply asking you to back up your statement – but, yeah you cant – because its not true.

        • tracey 15.1.1.2

          James what about the report Coleman signed off which referred to 2 buildings needing business case for recladding? That seems to suggest he knew something was wrong. A prudent Minister would have demanded follow up information, and given the leaky home debacle he ought to have asked “are there any other buildings? ” “Had we checked all buildings thoroughly”?

          You are not suggesting that document is a lie too are you? Even if there is not sewerage seeping through a wall, that doesn’t make Coleman squeaky clean and innocent on this.

          • james 15.1.1.2.1

            As I said – I would think there is a lot more to come of this.

            May the chips fall where they may – but I think Clark is going to be found out as telling mistruths

            • tracey 15.1.1.2.1.1

              LOL you say that like you think it is a bad thing?

              It will be interesting, if he is, to see how his mistruths are treated as compared to the legend of mistruths from 2008 to 2017

              I note you avoided comment on Coleman’s mistruth.

      • adam 15.1.2

        The last government were absolutely useless, running close to criminal neglect on this issue. All so they could have a surplus.

        Mind you from ideological hacks, and their supporters you just can’t expect much else.

    • Cinny 15.2

      Yes what did really happen at Middlemore?

      I see board members being sacked, then when I do a bit of research on them, I see that they proudly boast to be on MANY boards? What’s up with that?

      Mark Darrow
      Rabin Rabindran
      Lester Levy

      One would think that being on a DHB would keep a person busy enough? Especially being on the board of the largest DHB in NZ.

      Did personal greed get in the way of them doing a good job?

      Some are busy attempting to clear their names in the wake of what I see as incompetence. Too many incidents and coleman did a runner.

      • joe90 15.2.1

        Darrow presided over the Veritas Nosh/Mad Butcher disasters.

      • james 15.2.2

        Im guessing from your comment you have very little idea how boards work.

        • tracey 15.2.2.1

          Not necessarily. Darrow is painting himself as a very interested, active Board member. I am sure with your knowledge of Boards you will know there are oftentimes the diligent and the free loaders and the patsy appointment etc etc

      • Bewildered 15.2.3

        Cinny non executive board members are there for governance, they are not running the show or involved in management therefore it is not unusual for professional directors to be on more than one board, to the contrary it is the norm

        • Cinny 15.2.3.1

          For real? Even multiple boards of large organisations? Crikey.

          Lester Levy the ‘one man band’

          “CONSIDER THIS: one man will be nominally responsible for the healthcare of everyone from Wellsford to Otahuhu (“Waitemata” is misleading: the DHB extends from Te Arai Point to the Harbour Bridge, and across both coasts); buses and trains and ferries and roads and bridges and even cutting the grass on the berm outside homes from Wellsford to south of the Bombays (Auckland Transport, it has been estimated, controls 77 per cent of the Auckland Council’s assets and spends half of your rates.) He will be boss to something in the order of 17,500 public sector employees – as well as his private sector responsibilities”

        • Gabby 15.2.3.2

          They’re really just there for the free money aren’t they bewey.

        • tracey 15.2.3.3

          That’s true and some get to be CEO of Brierley and oversee the diminishment of its share price until the shares are simply wiped from the booked, get a 4.5m handshake and go on to be on Boards to tell them how to run their companies.

          We have certainly started to see some Board members take a much keener interest in operations since they found out they can be personally liable for things like Health and safety shortfalls.

          There are some great Directors out there but there are some negligent ones too, some lazy ones just picking up their cheques and others interfering in operations. To think otherwise suggests a rose coloured view of Boards in NZ. We see some, of political persuasion there for their networks and links rather than proven ability to be on a Board

      • Gabby 15.2.4

        Lester by his own admission is a super modest fellow and would never brag of his skill in facilitating public-private sector weath transfer.

    • Ad 15.3

      It’s not fair I’m sure James but Minister Clark is going to pull National’s health reputation round the farmyard tied behind a tractor for at least the first three years until no National MP is dumb enough to ever, ever claim they ever did anything good in the history of NZ health, to the point that any old duffer with a twinge recoils while holding the voting pen.

      So expect more shock horror, more amplified outrage, a few more laps around the farm behind the tractor. 😁

      • tracey 15.3.1

        Indeed, and maybe some nat voters will start to see that if we keep voting in lying politicians (for labour and national or whoever) they keep lying to us.

        We have to stop thinking lying is only bad when the other team does it.

    • tracey 15.4

      “The real question is why the ministry or the Capital Investment Committee did not advise the Minister on the issues that were raised with them in detail on multiple occasions. The briefings and meeting minutes from the DHB are all on file.””

      It appears Darrow thinks Clark is lying. Yet when Coleman claimed no knowledge of a few things, Darrow stayed quiet.

      I imagine there is way more to this than we have been told, but to think it is all at the door of Labour is disingenuous

      • Sacha 15.4.1

        I am waiting for journalists to delve into the CIC and its reporting lines to Ministers.

        • tracey 15.4.1.1

          This is ALL fascinating given the no surprises policy that stretched way beyond its envisaged remit under national, and presumably that wide remit will continue under this Government.Such a diligent fellow as Darrow seems to have made sure Clark knows, but not when Coleman was Minister. How odd.

  13. phantom snowflake 16

    Oh God, I can’t take any more, I think I’m gonna puke. The hostility and utter bafflement of those who try to sell me poppies. Everyone falling over each other to perpetuate the bullshit myth of “brave young men who fought for our freedom.” The inability to voice my views elsewhere due to political correctness and the shouting down of free speech. (See what I did there.)
    It’s Groundhog Day!
    I guess I’m really disappointed that we are so immature as a nation that we continue to define ourselves by reverence to an old myth which probably originated as British Empire military recruitment propaganda. I also find the degree of conformity we exhibit quite concerning. My own view, obviously an unpopular one, is that it’s time we moved on and pretty much left all this cruelty and slaughter in the past: basically let’s allow ourselves to forget.
    Rant over, I appreciate that I am able to say this here; ahhh I feel better already…

    • Ed 16.1

      Maybe we should listen to what veterans say.

      In November 2013, 91-year-old Yorkshireman, RAF veteran and ex-carpet salesman Harry Leslie Smith’s wrote an article — ‘This year, I will wear a poppy for the last time’

      Harry Leslie Smith closes the case for the proposition ‘This House Would Not Wear The Red Poppy’

    • tracey 16.2

      I had the exact conversation with my partner this morning and expressed ambivalence toward what seems to me to have bceome, over my lifetime, a popular trend or fixation, like a dated reality TV show.

      I wonder how many “celebrating” our military know that many who fought in WWI and II came back avowed pacifists?

      So, I share your hesitation to speak against the current trend. For those wars where our men volunteered for the adventure or the opportunity to shoot people with guns I wonder why I am supposed to regard them as heroes? We are currently seeing huge atrocities in a war today, and ignoring myriad of atrocities on other continents.

      We are in danger of glorifying something that most who served in WW I and II would have us NOT.

      • phantom snowflake 16.2.1

        Thanks, my social world contains precisely no one who supports my stance. We find ourselves currently and recently supporting “other peoples’ wars.” There is a climate in which, for many, our military can do no wrong (in Afghanistan) and have until now seemingly avoided any accountability or governmental oversight. We have some of the characteristics of a military dictatorship. I can’t help wondering if this situation would have been avoided had we not brainwashed ourselves for so long regarding the Gallipoli Campaign.

      • Monty 16.2.2

        I can’t imagine what those young men went through. My father never talks about what he saw or did in WW2. We know he was in some of the biggest European battles. My mom says he lost a wonderful part of him and that something never came back.

        I asked him once if would knowing what he knows now would he have fought. His only answer was yes.

        I have pondered that answer many times.

        All I can come up with is he knew he had to volunteer and fight as they were facing invasion, losing their way of life, losing their freedom.

        Germany was expanding though Europe, Japan through the pacific. Surely they had to be stopped.

        They didn’t want to fight but they did and we live in a world were Japan and Germany are our friends now.

        If they hadn’t fought would we be speaking Japanese or German. What would the world look like. Given the brutal nature of those two countries at that time, what would the world be like now.

        We don’t have glorify war but we should remember those who gave so much even if they didn’t want to.

        • tracey 16.2.2.1

          I have no problem with remembering but it seems in recent times it has become a, trying to find the right words, trendy thing to do and be seen, wearing a poppy, going to a parade and going to Turkey for dawn services, like an experience to be had rather than a moment to reflect. It is like war is something to be celebrated now rather than commemorated. I tip my hat to the veterans and their right to remember and be remembered but I am left with an uneasy feeling that some who know fuck all about being in a war are wearing it as social badge of honour

          I had 2 great uncles who died in WWI and parents who were children in WWII and fully remember the fear of potential invasion etc.

          I am not trying to belittle it, but I wonder at our fixation with Gallipoli, given we learned little from it in terms of our subservience to the brits and need to do it all again in WWII.

          A few weeks ago we discovered that our Defence Force Commander lied to us, as did our former PM when they said Hit and Run got the name of the village wrong. They were wrong about its position but not its name. After some delay there is now a narrow inquiry and so many think it is supporting our military to say “leave them alone, what do you expect?; I expect that people who died in WWI and II died for many reasons including deception and incompetence of military leaders, so we could be free and live in a democracy should be listened to in modern times. And yet, we are supposed to bow down to our MIlitary, to our Secret Services and let them behave as they please (as clearly has happened under the last Government and former govts too). To me, that contradicts what the brave men and women fought for.

          As an aside a day of rememberance and reflection is great unless people learn nothing from that reflection, and frnakly given the state of so many NZ services, I wonder how many really do see the lessons?

          • Anne 16.2.2.1.1

            ….it has become a, trying to find the right words, trendy thing to do and be seen, wearing a poppy, going to a parade and going to Turkey for dawn services, like an experience to be had rather than a moment to reflect. It is like war is something to be celebrated…

            My thoughts too. I'm sure its not a sentiment shared by the actual veterans and their immediate families, but for many others its the 'in thing to do' without them having any real clue as to what the wars were all about.

          • One Two 16.2.2.1.2

            Tracey, this comment is bang on IMO…as are the others who express similar sentiments…

            IMO the theme of commemorations have been turned into a vacuous and dangerous form of worship…

            To your question…Too few are paying attention to contemplate and appreciate the lessons that needed to be learned…

            In an instant gratification world ANZAC day provides a box to tick…and a show of power in case some were unclear on who is actually ‘in charge’…

            I see the events as a twisted form of coersion whereby ‘lessons’ are deliberately ignored…and counter opinions diminished or attacked…textbook…

        • mauī 16.2.2.2

          If they hadn’t fought would we be speaking Japanese or German. What would the world look like. Given the brutal nature of those two countries at that time, what would the world be like now.

          Yeah we don’t know what would have happened, but the way I see it kiwis were fighting as part of the British Empire, they weren’t fighting for their homeland NZ. I find it a stretch to think they sacrificed their lives for us, that’s myth making. Sure if NZ was being invaded you could make that case.

          I had two family members in the wars and they barely mentioned it with their own family members once they returned. If they wanted war to be associated with sacrifice, national identity or national pride or whatever I’m sure they would have made that clear to us. But they didn’t. All the same I’m sure Anzac Day was special for them and a chance to remember and see old friends. The day should be for them, not for the following generations.

          • Monty 16.2.2.2.1

            Not disagreeing. But let’s look at the time.

            Back then things were a lot different and NZ was a lot closer and proud of being part of the British empire the empire offered mutual support in times of conflict. You have to look at things in the context of he times and beliefs.

            Plus we were at threat of invasion. Japan has designs on both Australia and NZ to secure resource and regional control.

        • Patricia 16.2.2.3

          My father was in the Air Force in the South Pacific and would never talk about his 5 years in service. Came back emotionally damaged, self medicated on alcohol and died at 56 years of age.

      • mike s 16.2.3

        It;s not about celebrating our military or glorifying war. It’s about remembering those who died. They believed they were fighting for freedom and were willing to sacrifice themselves for it or suffer horrendous physical and mental trauma for it.

        Even my parents generation believed what they were told by governments and what they heard on the radio news. It was an entirely different world 100 years ago. It was only really once we started to get televised warfare and massive amounts of information getting to the public during the Vietnam war that the younger generations started to understand that wars are not noble causes.

        If we forget those who died then we might in the future make the same mistakes.

    • mike s 16.3

      Yes we know that pretty much all wars are not about defending freedom, etc. But the brave young men who died at Gallipoli for example, almost certainly believed they were fighting for our freedom and for our country.

      That’s good enough for me. Anzac day is about remembering all those who have sacrificed themselves in the belief it was for our freedom.

      I doubt you’d get many young volunteers willing to die if they knew all wars are bankers wars and are usually nothing to do with freedom from evil, so they were obviously fighting for what they believed was a just cause.

  14. I feel love 17

    Same, I actually find it odd that this is the one day the veterans are afforded, I have a picture of my Pop in his WW2 navy uniform and spare him a thought most days.

    • tracey 17.1

      I investigated by Great Uncles and got their war documents and gave them to my dad, he remembers them most days too.

      It isn’t about what we remember about them, per se, but what we learned from them.

  15. adam 18

    Big up’s to Frank for this.

    https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2018/04/24/is-this-the-political-cartoon-of-the-year/

    I agree, it probably is the political cartoon of the year.

  16. Good morning The Am Show Duncan everyone is forgetting one fact with Eco Maoris you will work it out .
    Emmanuel Macron has hit the nail on the head as the saying goes that anger is not acceptable in World politics Eco Maori admires Macron for his speech to the American congress and people .
    Duncan do you want some more tissues would you prefer that national carried on running the country into the ground alot of people have had there feathers ruffled by the new government who is making changes for the mokopunas future to be fair happy and healthy .
    At least you have Amanda who can see past her check book and think logically about the future and not just the NOW.
    With the traffic jams you always have two have 2 heavy traffic lanes merging and this slows the traffic to a stop they just have to come up with innovative ideas to clear these points of heavy traffic merging under passes over passes at these points simple higher fuel prices will help to.
    Ka kite ano P.S Some media hammer the Government on any issue they can

  17. eco maori 20

    https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/EAXJfVuv_De1G9fIyoSf1SVJVPVJBswA8f2KHBVso0olU59DjZ3eLZBy0WAT6UPG_EO2r9U1Np1_psSlg50zzyt4V2onfbeQ5nX9R7uyXpYXc5bjWLXeu63WTA=s0-d-e1-ft#https://avaazimages.avaaz.org/35891_22741_22719_cutebee_3_300x150.jpg

    48 hours to Save the Bees
    Totally ban bee killing pesticides
    France UK GERMANY & 9 other countries are in favour but we need to get four more on board to win the vote This is down to the wire Every signature counts the link is above Kia kaha we need to protect OUR insects & Bees I have already signed Ka kite ano

    • eco maori 21.1

      Newshub Nagti Tama is the only entity that will care for the fresh water springs in Nelson like water should be treated like a treasure a gift from Papatuanuku and Eco Maori says all water should be treated like this now and not just if we run out of water and start to value water then.
      Many thanks to our new coalition government for help our most vulnerable people the disabled with more funding for there extra cost to participate in our society Ka pai
      I see we have a bit of bad weather coming Ingrid Ka kite ano P.S I have figured out more about my advisories Ana to kai

      • eco maori 21.1.1

        The Crowd Goes Wild Mulls and James the League has still a long way to go for the
        Grand final.
        Russel Westbrook is pumping OUR Big Man will find his form I’m backing him.
        They will feel his Thunder.
        Mulls I made sure not to get hooked on Donkey Kong back in the day lol.
        I Tautoko The Crowd Goes Wild to tautoko OUR sports Stars Ka pai Niko Kirwan I still remember your old man cutting everyone up at the first Rugby World Cup
        Ka kite ano

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Membership: Australia and New Zealand Electronic Invoicing Board
    The Governments of Australia and New Zealand have announced the membership of the Australia and New Zealand Electronic Invoicing Board (ANZEIB) today. This is an important step towards implementing e-Invoicing across both countries to help businesses save time and money ...
    2 weeks ago
  • An end to unnecessary secondary tax
    Workers who are paying too much tax because of incorrect secondary tax codes are in line for relief with the passage of legislation through Parliament late last night. The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2018-19, Modernising Tax Administration, and Remedial Matters) ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Chatham Islands pāua plan approved
    Efforts to reverse the decline in the Chatham Islands pāua fishery are the focus of a new plan jointly agreed between government, the local community and industry. Fisheries Minister Stuart Nash says the plan was developed by the PauaMAC4 Industry ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Bill introduced for synthetics crackdown
    The Police will get stronger powers of search and seizure to crackdown on synthetic drugs under new legislation, which makes the two main synthetics (5F-ADB and AMB-FUBINACA) Class A drugs. The Government has today introduced the Misuse of Drugs Amendment ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Blasphemous libel law repealed
    The archaic blasphemous libel offence will be repealed following the passing of the Crimes Amendment Bill today, says Justice Minister Andrew Little. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Coalition Government lassos livestock rustling
    New rules to crack down on livestock rustling will come into force following the passing of the Crimes Amendment Bill says Justice Minister Andrew Little. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Medieval law axed
    The ‘year and a day rule’ rule will be repealed following the passing of the Crimes Amendment Bill, says Justice Minister Andrew Little. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Further steps to combat tax evasion
    Further steps to combat tax evasion Revenue Minister Stuart Nash has announced New Zealand is expanding its global ability to combat tax evasion by joining forces with authorities in 30 countries and jurisdictions. Cabinet has agreed to add another ...
    3 weeks ago