Open Mike 25/06/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 25th, 2018 - 134 comments
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134 comments on “Open Mike 25/06/2018”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    As we all know, the private sector is always better than the public one…

    “…EAST COAST MAIN LINE RETURNS TO PUBLIC OWNERSHIP AFTER ‘TOTAL FAILURE OF PRIVATISATION’…”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/east-coast-main-line-renationalised-public-ownership-rail-virgin-trains-franchise-failure-lner-a8414056.html

  2. Jenny 2

    As we all know, the private sector is always better than the public one… (Sarc)

    The private sector doesn’t seem to being to well in the fight against climate change.

    In the same vein, maybe government’s of the day should have left the private sector to prosecute the war against fascism, instead of nationalising whole tranches of industry for the war effort, like they did.

    • chris73 2.1

      What if you compared western democratic (private sector) countries efforts in climate change and ecology in general against socialist and communist countries (government owned) efforts and see how it stacked up

      • Grey Area 2.1.1

        Why don’t you do your own heavy lifting?

      • Incognito 2.1.2

        A variant of whatboutism: whatifism.

        You left off the question mark at the end of your garbled sentence.

      • mac1 2.1.3

        If countries’ efforts are measured by per capita production of CO2 emissions then, Chris73, go to this website.
        https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2.html#.WzAH8i2B3aY

        You’ll have to allocate each country to your preferred private sector/government owned categories. But the US at 50% more per capita emissions than Russia might give a clue as to how the scenarios might pan out……….

        I don’t know, though. You tell me. Then I can critique your methodology, figures and
        conclusions. 🙂

        You might even find more current world stats. This reference is from 2015.

      • mac1 2.1.4

        Chris73, here’s an interesting comparison.

        US fuel consumption is being trumpeted for achieving its highest economy rate- 24.7 mpg (US) which converts to 9.5 litres per 100 kms.

        In China, they have set a target of 5 litres per 100 km for their new car fleets by 2020, down from the current 6.9 litres.

        Of course my caveat about methodology, figures and conclusions applies to myself. 🙂

        • mikes 2.1.4.1

          “…which converts to 9.5 litres per 100 kms.”

          About the same as NZ’s fleet which is around 9.25

      • soddenleaf 2.1.5

        Given that those western private companies consumed the world into the mess were in….

        • In Vino 2.1.5.1

          And I wonder who on earth Chris73 is yapping on about. The USSR dissolved before the real fight against Climate Change; China remains a dictatorship, but is no longer communist or even socialist. It is simply as authoritarian as it always was, when powerful. Russia is now far from socialist.. So who are these evil powers, Chris73? Cuba?
          Have you any understanding of history and politics?

  3. Herodotus 3

    Why do some businesses expect the govt to “import” answers to our issues, yet offer no long term solutions in response ?
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/104863218/government-set-to-greenlight-skilled-foreign-workers-for-construction-sector
    Did not pre election last year, Labour in return to aiding a shortage of skilled workers “Construction firms will be exempt from applying the existing labour market test to bring in up to 1,500 foreign tradespeople at any one time if employers promise to take on a local apprentice for every migrant under a new ‘KiwiBuild Visa’ proposed by Labour.”
    https://www.interest.co.nz/news/88240/labours-immigration-policy-targets-kiwibuild-workers-and-apprentice-boost-aims-cut-20000

    • soddenleaf 3.1

      Rubbish unrecycleable are best returned directly to shareholders front lawns.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 4.1

      I’m telling you that man missed his calling in film and television.

      A slight hair mod he would be right at home driving The Mystery Machine and eating Scoobie snacks.

  4. Herodotus 5

    Where was the obligations that our Govt was placing on industries (specifically Construction) that in return for allowing overseas workers in to fill a gap in the shortage of skilled workers, to up skill the domestic labour force.
    All it appears to me, that we import short term solutions to fulfil ongoing needs ??
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/104863218/government-set-to-greenlight-skilled-foreign-workers-for-construction-sector
    https://www.labour.org.nz/immigration
    Residential construction firms could hire a skilled tradesperson on a three-year work visa without having to meet the Labour Market Test if they pay a living wage and take on an apprentice for each overseas worker they hire. The number of places will be limited to 1,000 to 1,500 at a given time, which we expect will be additional to the construction work visas issued under the existing rules.
    https://www.interest.co.nz/news/88240/labours-immigration-policy-targets-kiwibuild-workers-and-apprentice-boost-aims-cut-20000

    • saveNZ 5.1

      @Herodotus. Pathetic solution. Shows the government is still firmly in the badly run business pockets and doesn’t understand the problem.

      So 15000 new migrant workers into Auckland and another 15000 apprentices with the migrant workers on $20 p/h and probably the apprentices on less and probably not able to survive with the Auckland costs, taking up 3000 low cost houses immediately, at the age of starting families when there is a major shortage of maternity services in Auckland and teachers, hospitals and congestion on the rise, and all so developers can profit more when they build expensive mansions, hotels, and apartments to sell to the Singapore and other foreign buyers because they know that people on $20 p/h can’t afford them so only non residents or new residents which they need to bring in to buy them can…. driving up house prices and speculation even further and lowering wages while immediately taking up houses…

      What a solution…

      • SaveNZ 5.1.1

        Warning, it’s the social issues and bizarre laws that need to be addressed first, adding more people who will also suffer from the social afflictions and poor workplaces and government attitudes in NZ and take up more social support in the end is not the answer. Solve the exisiting problems, without adding more people to them who need to be helped!

        From gold medallist to homeless: Auckland woman fearing for life
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12076034

      • ropata 5.1.2

        100% correct savenz it’s a scam and developers are only interested in building for top dollar luxury foreign buyers. tax the fuckers to death unless they build proper houses for Kiwis to live in first

    • DH 5.2

      That looks to be at least a half-decent compromise Herodotus, on paper anyway. The housing situation needs to be sorted ASAP so a deal such as this may be an option if the positives outweigh the negatives.

      I expect as usual the devil will be in the details and how employers respond to it. I can’t see (m)any of them being happy with a 1:1 ratio or paying the living wage to a new migrant worker, that’s a bit of a curve ball for them.

      • SaveNZ 5.2.1

        The living wage is unliveable in Auckland. To give you an example one of the luxury hotel developments has just applied for hundreds of painter/decorator/plasterer types into Auckland at $20p/h.

        The price is more like $35 – $50+ p/h for those experienced trades.

        $20 p/h was the rate charged about 15 years ago. Trouble is, we ain’t got house prices from 15 years ago, we ain’t got power and water and food and rates from 15 years ago.

        So all that’s going to happen is that the apprentices if they even last, will not be able to survive on $20p/h so the Ponzi will continue… the foreign worker is coming under false pretences aka human trafficking style being fed a myth they will go home with lots of savings, or they are planning to try and get permanent residency… all in all, the people most benefiting is the foreign hotel billionaire developers and people least benefiting NZ low income workers who are all competing for lower priced rental accomodation in a city that’s not building any but luxury ones, and NZ experienced tradies who might as well throw in the towel and go on the dole and certainly not bother to train anybody – how will they compete for the contracts on that rate!

        • DH 5.2.1.1

          You’re overreacting. $20hr is very livable for a single young person starting out, even in Auckland. That’s $678 per week in the hand, more than enough to get by.

          • SaveNZ 5.2.1.1.1

            @DH, They want to pay $20p/h for experienced people not the apprentices. Generally the experienced people at some point, settle down want to have a family and buy a house, that’s where the problem lies in NZ….

            Rents are $400p/w in Auckland. So that $278 of your livable wage to buy food, transport, power, water, internet, save for a better life… as soon as they have a child they need working for families so the taxpayers are subsidising that and accomodation benefit.

            Same happens for the truck drivers, if you are earning $20 p/h and they hire people at $16 p/h and you will still be on that in real terms in a decade… already happening. Wages are effectively going down hence the decline of social mobility in the west.

            Pandering to it, is making it worse for the working poor and the beneficiaries who are between a rock and a hard place in this country.

            • DH 5.2.1.1.1.1

              $20hr is starting wages and the migrant workers will be single. Yes it’s undercutting local tradesmen but I doubt the migrant’s trade qualifications would be valid here in NZ anyway so they’d likely be virtual apprentices.

              I don’t particularly like it, I’d rather they got off their arse and trained up our unemployed, but this at least is better than what National were offering. For every new migrant worker there will be a new local apprentice. In theory anyway.

    • Hongi Ika 5.3

      Why don’t we train our own people ?

  5. marty mars 6

    the racist Barr has dropped – now she’s the victim – file under cowardly t.rump right wing whiners.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/104972855/roseanne-barr-says-i-made-myself-a-hate-magnet

  6. ScottGN 7

    Not even a squeak in the polls for Malcom after passing his 144 billion dollar tax cuts.
    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/fairfax-ipos-poll-the-pm-s-144-billion-tax-cut-offer-seems-to-have-fallen-flat-20180624-p4zner.html
    Labor still holds a 2 party preferred lead of 6 points over the Coalition, 53% to 47%.

    • Gosman 7.1

      Kind of like what happened to the current NZ Government after the budget then.

      • ScottGN 7.1.1

        Not really alike at all.
        Our recent budget wasn’t intended to set the stage for an election campaign, there are still 2budgets in the term to do that.
        Malcolm’s tax cuts however, are absolutely designed to position the Coalition for an election campaign and there has been talk in Canberra that he might be getting ready to go early depending on the outcome of the 5 by-elections set down for July 28.
        Looks like voters in Australia have twigged to the swindle that Malcolm’s trying to pull over them – 10 bucks a week for workers as a fig leaf for massive cuts to corporate taxes and, learned from bitter experience that tax reductions always mean cuts to social services in order to pay for them.

  7. One Anonymous Bloke 8

    Hannah Gadsby’s Nannette (on Netflicks) is recommended viewing. Just a bit o’locker room banter, lads, don’t get all het up.

  8. Pat 9

    “The Government has been admirably open about the economic impacts of its proposed Zero Carbon Bill, but people haven’t absorbed what the “stark” cost figures mean, says Bell Gully partner Simon Watt.”

    ….and in that he is correct….but then the conflation….

    “The discussion document addresses adaptation and highlights the need for it but it doesn’t feature in the economic modelling, so what people may not appreciate is that the cost of carbon needed to achieve the emissions targets, which the modelling suggests would have 0.2 per cent annual impact on GDP to 2050, on top of that is the cost of adaptation. So adapting to extreme weather events, the cost of relocating and protecting infrastructure, roads, airports, railways, the cost of moving houses inland: those are costs the economy is going to have to bear in addition to adjusting to get to zero emissions.”

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/06/24/128724/zero-carbon-costs-confronting

  9. ianmac 10

    Hard to condemn for its pollution while admiring its McKenzie Basin high tech.

    There’s a curious anomaly in the set up at Simons Pass station. When it begins operation this spring it will be one of the most modern farms in the country – energy efficient, hi-tech. The tractors will be driverless electric ones, the cows will come in to the robotic milkers whenever they feel like it. The fences will be virtual – GPS-controlled collars the animals wear will ensure they stay within allocated boundaries.

    Good question included. Would there be the same concern if the farm was horticultural?

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/06/24/128713/a-curious-anomaly-in-the-mackenzie-basin

  10. saveNZ 11

    I’m guessing the land is not lease held by the government, because if it is not, then isn’t that just giving away free prime land to developers?

    Housing: Auckland getting 23,600 new residences on state-owned land
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12071219

    What a bargain, displace exisiting vulnerable tenants, then build loads of houses of which less than half are actually the state houses???

    Would it be more efficient to just have 23,600 state houses so that they can ensure they are affordable, and actually build them themselves so that they don’t have to pay for a private companies profit margin?

    And adding more people into Auckland and selling the newly build apartments to foreigners and new residents like the select committee recommends , displaces existing poorer residents and displaces those residents to other towns…. like Tauranga for example who then displaces others and the Ponzi continues…

    It’s a Ponzi of slavery so that employers can keep wages below living costs. Seriously, you would not be able to have a family in Auckland on $20p/h! And the fixed costs are rising monthly, from food to transport to power and water and rates, all going up to pay for the infrastructure for all the new housing & transport that people on average wages can’t afford!

    What is the use of a cycle lanes & transport in central Auckland where the houses cost 1.5 million and the apartments cost $650,000+ with rising body corporate costs of $6000+pa and you will probably be in for remedial work within 10 years because our generous bankruptcy laws give shoddy developers and poor workmanship a free ride?

    • AsleepWhileWalking 11.1

      State houses = IRRS which they probably can’t afford the subsidy.

      If they add a nice round 10,000 State Houses as IRRS increases lockstep with market rate that will be roughly 400/WK /house.

      Assumes some tenants have income that reduces the IRRS.

      So 10000 * 400/WK = roughly 4million each week.

      I don’t see IRRS here long term as it is the second most unsustainable item behind pensions. They can’t just keep adding to their forward liability indefinitely.

      And yeah…wtf with gifting? Logic would keep the land and lease back. Fucking corruption.

    • McFlock 11.2

      If you just build 23000 state houses you end up with ghettos of highly deprived (in the technical term) people. Areas that become no-go for everyone else and policed by a hostile force that doesn’t live there. So the current idea is to sprinkle state houses amongst the middle classes.

      • SaveNZ 11.2.1

        That would be all well and good, but the deal seems to involve giving away the land to the developers so they get ‘middle classes’. Wouldn’t care if they kept it, cheap lease hold but nope sounds like they are privatising the land.

        Aren’t teachers and police middle classes, wouldn’t it be easier to just have cheap rents for those people, who can then afford to live in Auckland and save to buy their own house…. The rents pay for the builds over time….

        In other countries they make all the developers have affordable housing as a percentage of the plans in the planning!

        In NZ they give away the land to developers to make houses than most people who live there can’t afford and now they are recommending allowing foreigners to land bank them to keep the developer happy with high prices!

        • McFlock 11.2.1.1

          Thing about the NZ middle classes is that they prefer to have a mortgage than a rent. So if you make rental the rule, you end up with a slightly lower-dep ghetto than if it were just social housing.

          The other thing is that the land is essentially payment for the developers to build. If the government kept the land, they’d have to finance the build some other way. No doubt you have some ideal-world theories on how that could be done, but in the real world what other options are there?

  11. esoteric pineapples 12

    I was thinking upon Trump and kids being taken away from their parents when I thought, hey, don’t we put mothers in prison and separate them from their kids? I remember the Northland woman Kelly van Gaalen who was sentenced to two years in prison for cannabis possession which was later commuted to community service, but it turns out other women end up going to prison and being separated from their children. In some cases they lose contact with their children as the story below highlights

    “Rebecca was a solo mum to five kids. Her youngest was 5, just getting into the swing of school life and her eldest fast approaching 18. Rebecca was their world, their only provider – the only parent they had known properly.And then, she was gone.

    She was arrested, charged with criminal offending and remanded in custody to await a trial. That was a year ago, and Rebecca has only just been able to get contact again with her brood. The youngest four are split between two Oranga Tamariki carers and the now 18-year-old is fending for herself. Until recently, Rebecca had no idea where her little ones were.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12029653

    • Chris T 12.1

      Don’t quite get the point you are trying to make

      You think we shouldn’t have women’s prisons?

      Do you think women with children shouldn’t go to prison?

      If so does this apply to men who are solo fathers?

    • Sabine 12.2

      well its not only women in prison who are separated from their children, so are the men. And in the end it does not matter if one goes to prison for murder, p-cooking or weed peddling. Crime is crime and one goes to Prison. Fact is if she would have not have had weed on her, she would not have gone to prison.

      I agree with you that at some stage it would really be nice if we in this country could have a grown up conversation about drugs, drug use, resulting healthcare needs and decriminalizing of weed. But alas we are not there.

      This is however not the same as in the US where people are told that they babies are gonna go for a bath just to not be returned. Where children are locked up hundreds or thousands of miles away from their parents without the parents even knowing where the children are.
      Where people are told that if they give up their legal right to claim asylum they may get their kids back.
      Where people have been deported without their children.
      Where people have had their non verbal children taken without any ‘receipt’ that would help to re-unite.

      This women here in NZ never lost parental rights, and as you yourself state she is now back with her kids.

      I would not compare this. Rebecca fucked up by herself, she did not loose her children at the border while trying to claim asylum.
      No matter how much we want weed to be legal, atm it is not, and being caught with weed will get you in trouble with the law. She would have known that, she took the risk, and she did not think much about her kids before taking the risk.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 12.3

      There is no better rehab than keeping contact with kids IMHO.

      Glad you brought it up.

      • Sabine 12.3.1

        then why did she offend in the first place, as at that time she was living with the kids?

        Personally i think she should have never gone to prison for weed. But the laws are what they are.
        Did she really think that having kids will prevent her from going to prison? Or did she really think that making her home a prison (home D is effectively making the family home a prison for everyone living there ) is worth it all?

        I don’t get that. Break the law, go to prison, do not collect 200 while passing start.

        • Brigid 12.3.1.1

          Sabine your attitude ‘if you don’t want the time, don’t do the crime’ is fine, but it’s rather simple thinking when there are children of the criminal who will be serving the time just as the parent does.
          That is the issue

          • Sabine 12.3.1.1.1

            I simply responded that the story about the women in prison in NZ is not comparable to the refugee seekers in the US that have their children stolen from them.

            I made it clear that i do not condone anyone going to prison for weed.
            I made it clear that sending someone on home d is equivalent to sending the whole family on home d.

            But i agree with you that the women should have thought first about the well being for her children rather then ‘being cought in possesion’.

            Cause yes, parents have responsabilities, and one of these is to ask yourself what risk you would take and is that risk worth taking if you can loose your children for it.

            So excuse me if my pity train for her and others that find that the law applies to them and is applied to them is a bit short.

            As for home d, one of my partners dumb relatives was on home d in the property we rented for his kids in AKL. He could not leave, he had to have food brought to him, he was inspected by some dudes showing up randomly, drug tests etc, one fail and of to prison you go. And those that live with these guys live with Home D and the lack of privacy that comes with it.

            And every time an Parents fucks up it is generally the kids paying the bills. So what say you, we can’t lock them up cause the children?

            Really?

            Personally for me she would never have been in trouble as I would like to see weed de-criminalized. And i am sure, one day we have a government with guts rather then just pretty words. Alas at the moment, yes she should have thought what would happen if she gets caught, and what would happen to her children. The fact that she did not think about that at all seems to be overlooked.

            • Brigid 12.3.1.1.1.1

              ” So what say you, we can’t lock them up cause the children? ”
              Where did I say that?

      • Gabby 12.3.2

        Depends on just how badly they treated the kids doesn’t it sleepy.

    • saveNZ 12.4

      Apparently there is a massive increase in women going to prison.

      The separation of kids from their parents is a hard one. The best thing is to try to stop the offending before it starts, aka exactly what we are not doing, because in NZ we short change young people and think their education is a commodity and tell them to suck it up when they are expected to compete against 100,000+ new workers being recruited into the country so that employers don’t have to employ new workers (nobody says that employers are the new snowflakes..)

      The other day an article about how aged care in NZ are demanding the right to recruit an overseas low paid care worker, because the 75 people who applied ‘did not have the right fit’. OK then, being a low waged slave who can’t speak much English so less likely to be able to become a whistleblower in the industry then?

      On the Trump side, the latest, in the saga…

      “US quits UN human rights council

      Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and America’s UN envoy, Nikki Haley, made the announcement at a joint news conference in Washington.

      Ms Haley last year accused the council of “chronic anti-Israel bias” and said the US was reviewing its membership.”

      What a bizarre world with bizarre leaders with bizarre policy and bizarre decision making chains we live in!

    • soddenleaf 12.5

      Spanish Portuguese kids have never be taken from their parents and put into American camps without family, like granny, or uncles as they are here.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      I’m actually amazed that they managed to keep those planes flying 60 bloody years. They should have been replaced thirty years ago.

      And I still say that we should be producing our own military equipment including planes. Producing them ourselves from our own resources is part of the national security aspect of the military.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.1.1

        They should have and both parties are to blame on that but hopefully something will now get done

        “And I still say that we should be producing our own military equipment including planes. Producing them ourselves from our own resources is part of the national security aspect of the military.”

        Just how much would it cost to start up the infrastructure need to produce the required items and then what would we do with the same infrastructure once the items are produced

        What would you give up to pay for it

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1

          Just how much would it cost to start up the infrastructure need to produce the required items and then what would we do with the same infrastructure once the items are produced

          Not much really. It’s fairly old tech after all and much of it could be maintained the same way as before:

          The Shot Tower marks the site of the former Colonial Ammunition Company (CAC).

          CAC was formed in 1885, by Major John Whitney and W H Hazard. This was at the time of the “Russian Scare” when Tsar Alexander brought some of his naval fleet into the North Pacific to Vladivostok and it was feared that he was about to expand his empire. Fortifications were built with all haste and the need for ammunition independent of the supplies from Britain became urgent. CAC was the first munitions factory in Australasia and later established a factory in Melbourne.

          CAC prospered and apart from the needs of the military, they provided bullets for hunters and shot gun cartridges for duck shooters.

          Much of it is already in place and needs expanding. This applies to ships and aircraft.

          I’d just have it as fully government owned to supply the military as needed but also providing guns and ammo for hunting.

          And then your question involves a fallacy. That fallacy is that because infrastructure is made it must therefore be used all the time and produce a profit when it doesn’t. Maintained certainly but it doesn’t have to be used and it most definitely doesn’t have to make a profit. This especially applies to military production and R&D. The military should be considered as a necessary expense and its production facilities to go along with it.

      • Exkiwiforces 13.1.2

        Yes the poor buggers had to pull something out of the hat, when the “No Mates Party” slice 25% off the Defence budget in the 90’s and change the Defence Capital Equipment Procurement rules and Defence accounting rules.

        This action by the numptie Neo- Cons in the 90’s has caused long term damage to the NZDF as it toss out any long term planning IRT to equipment replacement and turn it into a ad-hoc Procurement process which in turned seen equipment get used well beyond its use by date or capabilities run into the ground or worse capabilities lost as the NZDF could afford replacements under the “No Mates Party”.

        Which was to rare it’s ugly head during the Bosnia Peacekeeping deployment, later the INTERFET/ Peacekeeping deployment to ET, during the on-going deployments to the MER and it finally blew up in Labour’s face when it did the Re- Capitaliizse of Defence Equipment aka Project Protector, the NH-90’s, Air Strike Wing, LAV’s, the Armoured Pinz’s vehicles, C-130’s, P3 and B757 upgrades.

      • Tricledrown 13.1.3

        DTB making our own planes for the military.
        The last time we built planes fo the airfarce was in the early 1970’s the airtrainer a turbo prop single engine.
        Our manufacturing capabilities don’t exist.
        To build modern war planes we are way out of our depth.
        A plane to replace the Orion p3, will cost up to $400million per plane.
        For an adapted Boeing 737.
        Are their other options out there yes but to work in with the US and Australia we have to have the same equipment.

        • Exkiwiforces 13.1.3.1

          The only real other option that is available to RNZAF is the P1 from Japan and to work within the 5E’s would mean either swapping a few black boxes out or adding a few in. Which is really not much work for erk’s, just pain in ass for them swapping them in and out all the time.

          My Uncle (Ex Strike Wing SNCO Tech and lead SNCO Tech or team member for a number Projects – both A4 and Bunty replacement projects and few minor ones before retirement 3yrs ago) said he would rather have the P1 than the P8 as the Yanks are getting pretty tight on what you can and can’t do IRT upgrades on US built Military equipment as that’s where the money is long term especially when you have smart ass countries like NZ doing some wonderful upgrades over the yrs.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.3.2

          Our manufacturing capabilities don’t exist.

          Except for the fact that they do:

          Airbus in the Pacific operates a one-stop aeronautical design and manufacturing facility. We specialise in delivering ad hoc or short run design and manufacturing solutions in support if major airframe assembly, maintenance and modification programmes.

          That was Safe Air before it got sold.

          Are their other options out there yes but to work in with the US and Australia we have to have the same equipment.

          No we don’t. There would have to be standards for fuel and to be able to communicate but it doesn’t have to be the same equipment.

      • alwyn 13.1.4

        “60 bloody years”.
        Is that all. They are only just out of childhood.
        The B52 has already racked up 65 years in service and is slated to remain operational until about 2050! That is almost 100 years.
        I suspect they must be a bit like my Grandfather’s axe. It is now 80 years old and is as good as new. I have replaced the head twice and the handle four times but it is still his axe.
        http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-b-52-air-force-20180215-story.html

        • Exkiwiforces 13.1.4.1

          Well the yanks aren’t actually short of spare parts for the old B52 bomber and just google the boneyard to understand why. But only problem they facing atm is engines as the design of them are even older and if memory serves me correctly those engines as base around the old Bristol Sapphire engines that were built under license by the yanks in the 50’s. As the Sapphire and RR Avon jet engines while the only good engines the west had at the time apart from the Canadian Orenda Iroquois engine and the British Olympus engines underwhich were under development for the CF-105 and TSR2 Projects.

          Mind if the Kahu 2 Project went a head for the A4’s instead of the F-16’s the RNZAF would’ve needed a new engine as there is plenty of spare fames etc to go around, but bugger all engines.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.4.2

          The B52 has already racked up 65 years in service and is slated to remain operational until about 2050!

          I note a few differences:
          1. The US produces the planes themselves and can probably produce new parts for it at will. NZ can’t (although there was the case a few years ago when SafeAir was contracted to rebuild the centre wings (Hence proving that we can already do this stuff) – massive metal fatigue had made the planes almost unflyable).
          2. Out of 742 built there’s some 75 still in service. I suspect it’s been a case of removing the older ones with more flight time on them as each modification came through.
          3. Unlike us the US doesn’t screw around with their defence forces. Sure, the private sector system is probably a rort of several billion per year but their defence forces are well maintained.

          It is now 80 years old and is as good as new.

          No, it really isn’t. It obviously hasn’t been sharpened every year for 80 years else there’d be nothing left. And sharpening that has be done has removed steel.

          • McFlock 13.1.4.2.1

            No, it really isn’t. It obviously hasn’t been sharpened every year for 80 years else there’d be nothing left. And sharpening that has be done has removed steel.

            Way to miss the point – the axe head has been replaced twice and the handle four times, but it is still his grandfather’s axe.

            I.e. the planes might have been flying for 60 years, but whether any gauge, rivet or spar has been in the plane that long is another matter.

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.4.2.1.1

              the axe head has been replaced twice and the handle four times, but it is still his grandfather’s axe.

              At that point it’s not 80 year old axe.

              Parts can be replaced (We’ve done it) but eventually you need to replace so much at one time that it’s cheaper and better to buy a new one.

              • McFlock

                Really? It’s the same axe been in inventory all that time, with regular maintenance along the way (preventing catastrophic failure), sitting on the same hook in the shed when not being used.

                • In Vino

                  Listen you noddies.
                  I still have a 1970s VW. The dipstick is original.

                  • Sam

                    There’s a reason why we don’t take guns from 80 years ago onto the modern battle field just like we don’t dig trenches like we used to.

                    • Exkiwiforces

                      “There’s a reason why we don’t take guns from 80 years ago onto the modern battle field just like we don’t dig trenches like we used to.”

                      Well you better pop over to Afghanistan and tell the locals that they shouldn’t be using their Martini Henry’s, Lee Mountford’s, Lee Enfield’s, Mauser K98 rifles and god knows what else they are using from the days of British Raj along with all the left over small arms from the Soviet era and current Western Governments.

                      The use of trenches and construction of field fortifications etc are still being taught and use today in modern armies. I’ve dug a few stage 3 pits/ bunker complex’s over the last 19 odd yrs around airfields.

            • alwyn 13.1.4.2.1.2

              @McFlock.
              Well thank goodness somebody got the point of that hoary old comment.
              Do I really have to explain such references in future do you think?

              • McFlock

                I’ve found that allegory doesn’t communicate well a lot of the time. Some folks ain’t in the right headspace at the time, others simply don’t get it or have the time or cultural references to get it in a timely manner, and then some might fixate on it as a means to avoid the actual point.

                Fwiw, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of any particular b52’s airframe and skin is original from its first flight.

        • Tricledrown 13.1.4.3

          Alwynger the p3 orion the p8posiedon have nothing to do with high altitude heavy bombers.
          Have herd of corrosion alwynger.
          Naval reconnaissance and submarine busters.
          These planes fly at low levels picking sea spray.
          The b52s fly at high altitude for mainly carpet bombings
          Foot in Mouth again alwynger.

          • Exkiwiforces 13.1.4.3.1

            The B52 did revert to low level flying once it became known that Soviet SAM base Air Defence was actually quite good, but the B52 had a lot of flex in the aircraft which is not good for it compared to the likes the mighty Vulcan or the Victor which were built like an Aussie outback brick dunny and they could the pounding that comes with low level flying.

            What has saved the B52 from the scrap heap is the use of stand off weapons systems which means it doesn’t have fly low level anymore there by increasing its fatigue life and by using stand off wpns it can stay out of the enemies Intergrated Air Defence System (IADS).

            We have a B52 here in Darwin at the Air museum and where get up close to it you see all the stress ripples throughout Aircraft so this old lady had a fairly hard servcie life before she retired. Also we about 2-3 B52 rotations a year here in Darwin thank to the Brits in 50’s and 60’s when the RAF’s Far East Airforce deployed its V Forces bombers to Darwin.

            • Tricledrown 13.1.4.3.1.1

              Fellow plane spotter the Vulcan is an amazing plane for its era the British were good at developing new technology back in the day.

              • Exkiwiforces

                Yes the Vulcan was an amazing Aircraft along with the Victor from Handley Page which was equally good to the Vulcan if not better apart from it couldn’t really be adapted to the low level flying without destroying it’s fatigue life unlike the mighty Vulcan which took to low level flying like a duck to water.

                It was a shame that some the planned updates for the Vulcan over its service life never happened. As it had few party tricks up its sleeve like it low radar cross section which the crews used it very well when played OFOF in the NORAD Ex’s to a point the Yanks said piss off as we don’t with you anymore. Bolton Paul in the 50’s develop a RAM and they apply it to a Canberra Bomber and it reduced its cross section by 3/4’s. So think if they did apply that to the Vulcan and the HS2 scanner from WW2 was still being use until the Vulcan retired from service.

                It was very useful in a dogfight as a few of the dumb knuckle heads (fighter pilots) found out during the red flag ex’s when they thought they had a kill at low level. Mind you the old F1-11 flew by RAAF did the same thing.

                Would’ve like to seen the Vulcan B2 phase 6 get up and she would’ve a monster and a half with buckets load power to boot. I was in hants Uk called Whitchurch about 10yrs ago when it screamed over a Mates house at low level. The power and noise it made unreal as I almost shit myself and I’ve seen/ been in some low flying in some big aircraft, but this was special.

                The planned updates to the Victor by Handley Page was truly amazing for that era also, but the way the British Labour Government at the time treated the company was quite frankly bloody disgusting as they were aerospace industry leaders in composite fibres before they become trendy and a few other things which I can’t remember atm.

                These three books that are worth the read during a NZ winter:

                Vulcan’s Hammer V-Force Projects and Weapons since 1945, by Chris Gibson.
                Black Box Canberras British Test and Trials Canberras 1951-1994, by Chris Forster
                British Secret Projects No2 Jet Bombers since 1949, by Tony Buttler (get the updated one as it new interesting information on some projects) he also done one onthe Miles M.52 and it’s worth while reading Capt Eric “Winkle” Brown book as well he was the only test pliot that could’ve fitted into the cockpit. To form your opinion if the could’ve broken the sound barrier before the yanks.

                • alwyn

                  “mighty Vulcan which took to low level flying like a duck to water”.

                  Not quite always so successful at low altitudes. Do you remember the one that was at the opening of Wellington Airport in 1959? It hit the end of the runway and almost crashed. Mind you it wasn’t the only near crash that day. A flying boat (Sunderland I think) also managed to hit the runway during a low pass. I was there that day, as a school boy visiting my sister in Wellington. I didn’t see the Vulcan mishap but I did see the flying boat.
                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/capital-life/73052311/Wellington-Airports-1959-gala-opening-a-bumpy-ride-150-Years-of-News

                  • Exkiwiforces

                    I’m a 73 vintage, but I’ve seen footage and photos from the 1959 air show.

                    Ground and low level flying of aircraft don’t mix very well and when my uncle was liney at 75SQN and 14SQN, he some interesting stories of some of knuckle heads bring back bits of trees, plam trees, antenna wire/ signal rope from ships and yes even about 200m of electric fence that a Skyhawk knuckle head picked up from somewhere in the Nth Island which was imbedded into the wing of his A4.

    • Exkiwiforces 13.2

      If old Ronnie manages to get of the stupid Defence accounting rules IRT Defence Capital Equipment procurement that “No Mates Party” brought in with Treasury backing in the 90’s as we are the Nation within 5Eyes and in the OECD to have such stupid/ idiotic accounting rules IRT to Defence procurements.

      And people wonder why the NZDF/MOD have so many cost blow outs over the last two decades, but saying that we are not as bad as the pork barrel politics of Australia or the US and the cost blows are quite small compared to the Canadian and UK MOD. But any cost blow out IRT to Defence Procurement in NZ is bad a enough as it reduces spending in other areas within Defence etc.

      If Ronnie gets the P3 replacement, the C-130 over the line and the Defence accounting rules overhaul IRT Defence Capital Equipment procurements then well done Ronnie as you will make a few people within Cabinet look rather amateurish ATM.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.2.1

        I’m not keen on NZFirst or Ron Mark but if he manages this then yes he’ll deserve all the kudos he’ll get

        • Robert Guyton 13.2.1.1

          This is your core business, Pucky?

        • Exkiwiforces 13.2.1.2

          Ronnie has put a lot of hard yards in to his portfolio unlike a few within Cabinet atm and unlike the last 3 muppets/ numpties of the previous Government who were just seat warmers and he is asking the a lot of hard questions from funding to capability issues/ shortfalls, climate change/ long term tends in the Asia-Pacific region, welfare of all personal- Civilians and uniform.

          My contacts are saying he is up there with Mapp and Roy team before they got dumped, Phil Goff fixing up Burton’s **** ups and if he pulls this off along with few other projects in the couple of years he will be the best MoD in decades.

          • Puckish Rogue 13.2.1.2.1

            Thats way above my pay grade 🙂

          • AsleepWhileWalking 13.2.1.2.2

            That’s good to hear, although they are so run down he’s got his work cut out.

            • Exkiwiforces 13.2.1.2.2.1

              Yes, Ronnie does have has work cut out atm. A mate was having few quite amber ale’s with him late last yr and he said funding/ the way Defence is force to do its accounting and procurements are his biggest headache as we are the only nation to do it that way. ( See above) If he can sort that then a lot of things will full into place rather quickly and for some on left too fast compared to other departments like health, education, housing etc.

              The other thing is he understands the Defence, Foreign Affairs, Aid and Trade go hand in hand with each other especially now with Climate Change and the possibility of the Strategic outlook in the South Pacific/ Antarctic regions slowly changing from the so-called “Benign Environment” that’s including the greater Asia- Pacific Region.

              Once everyone understands that Climate Change and the Strategic Outlook is slowly changing in our sleepy little back water as are they biggest game changers atm facing NZ.

  12. saveNZ 14

    More mush from the economists, I’m surprised he didn’t mention if people didn’t cut out smashed Avocados then they could buy a house…

    “If you want to put more money in people’s pockets, it’s not just about raising wages, we’ve got to find a way of driving a bit more competitive pressure into the economy.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12074444

    Same messages from the same people, government should top up people’s wages with subsidies not expect poor employers to pay higher wages. The results will mean the same results we have in NZ increasing inequality, prisons, Lower and lower OECD outcomes in social areas, more government spending on spiralling social spending rather than improving outcomes and services…

    30 years of competition and now people live in cars and a significant portion need government benefits like WFF to top up their meagre wages…. productivity is flat, but wait it’s not a rip off that our banking sector earn 15% more profits after tax, and our construction sector is way higher, than OZ.

    Just bring in more competition as it’s not about raising wages, it’s about increasing scale and completion (which just happens to help banks to profit more) … trickle down theory one point one still alive and well and our dominant economic discourse.

    • tc 14.1

      NZ has insufficient ‘genuine’ competition due to our small size as a market and the geographic challenges of distribution across that small population.

      Those 30 years have been spent flogging off public assets to mates, consolidating markets via comm comm rubber stamps and pretending there’s competition when in fact it’s a cosy cartel or a few incumbents tossing off market share between each other.

      Power, Telco, Building supplies and supermarkets are just a few where we got reamed as consumers.

      • saveNZ 14.1.1

        Modern forms of competition being beneficial are a construct. People are naturally kind and social, this idea that we are all selfish beings out to profit is creating a reality that is not a nice one and benefiting the worst of society, hence rise of mental illness and health disorders like Obesity…. when profit from food is more acceptable and the goal in modern society than nutritious healthy food… Priorities are skewered the wrong way.

    • mauī 14.2

      How many iconic kiwi companies have moved their production and jobs offshore in the last 30 years?

      • SaveNZ 14.2.1

        @Maui, I think they have found it easier to move the employee’s from offshore here, because the NZ government via local taxpayers pays their health care, benefits and tops up their wages to keep them healthy enough to keep working, while keeping corporate welfare and deregulation going as they strip natural resources…

        There are also great grants to get… Mediaworks got millions from creative NZ as well as that free loan from the Natz, Property development companies getting free and cheap land from the state and local government, even the little companies like Gameloft, which after getting 3.5 million in grants and importing a lot of foreign workers rather than hiring local ones and training them has now popped off to exploit new opportunities in Nigeria… leaving the NZ taxpayers to pay the dole to those left in the lurches. http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/295245/bid-to-'claw-back'-gameloft-grant

        In the Gameloft company, knew one of the people working there who was a migrant, and they said that every time the company advertised a new role, it was at a lower salary than the last, so even though they themselves were a migrant they knew there was no future in working for the company as how can you get ahead as your wages are static (or even being lowered) and you fear for your job security and your expenses are rising yearly?

        Migrants and Kiwis face the same issues in the end. And we can only solve our problems by solving the underlying issues in NZ that have come about by bad government policy and direction in particular around employment and training.

        At present the government seems to be making it worse by giving in to bad employers to prop up a system that will result in a much bigger mess to NZ than address the problems now. And sending the message from the best of the best leaving this country or the workforce who if they stay have a good chance of being exploited or just being considered a replaceable commodity and wages don’t matter.

        • soddenleaf 14.2.1.1

          hey, Key was useless, no PM has become more dated faster, wrong side of history, sure every govt makes concessions. The problem is the same old tired press faces talk blandly around the issues and drop hold govt to account. At the basis of that, is the senatorical system we have, not enough representative each vying forpoint of difference. We’re hindered in nz by the bottleneck of 120 people who are there far longer than elsewhere, chosen by the same people…

          so get your head out… we need change andthe current one is the most progressive we’ve had in long time.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 14.3

      Just a theoretical chap, not someone to take seriously

    • Herodotus 14.4

      Many many years ago, there was a post on this site that contained a graph and supporting text on how the countries GDP share of wages/companies profits had changed with a dramatic lift in what companies share of retained GDP at the expense of the wager earner.
      But I did find this, which covers the same terrain.
      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/02/14/real-wages-the-brutal-truth/

  13. SaveNZ 15

    Of course since MBIE seems to have MAJOR numeracy and truth issues, hot on the treasury getting it’s figures 25% out… you have to wonder, maybe it’s government advisors giving fake and misleading advice, not the government that is the issue…

    MBIE under-reported spending on contractors and consultants by $38m

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/360232/mbie-under-reported-cost-of-contractors-and-consultants-by-38m

  14. saveNZ 16

    Giving away free public land seems to be a trend… like the water, when it comes to educating people though, happy to destroy 40 jobs in a university library which are probably jobs hard to recreate in music and arts, against public outcry.

    “Dodgy as hell

    That’s the only way to describe Horowhenua District Council’s plan to give council assets to a private “economic development” trust:

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2018/06/dodgy-as-hell.html

    • Hongi Ika 16.1

      We really do have a bunch of muppets in Central & and Local Government.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 16.2

      The same council that had that massive blowout in the Levin library.

      If they continue their fiscally irresponsibility Horowhenua is going the way of Kaipara.

      • SaveNZ 16.2.1

        There should be criminal charges for public figures ‘giving away’ land with few conditions… ok, it might fill up the prisons but I’d gladly put a few councillors and politicians away for gross negligence, rather than that women with the kids and a bag of weed.

        Don’t forget a corporation managed to kill 29 people at Pike River and work safe let him get away with a fine and no criminal charges as yet… but a bag of weed sounds like will get you locked up probably if you are the wrong race aka Maori. I think workspace are presently trying to bang up somebody whose tree fell down in a child centre which seems a bit more like an act of god than no safety equipment, no rescue attempt and one exit in a dangerous mine.

        Weird too, the so many people seem to think the treaty was giving away all that land to Maori, yet the councils like Auckland and Horowhenua, seem to be giving it away like hot cakes because they don’t feel they can do a good enough job themselves. If only they would just fire themselves, and let someone else who is competent take over at council not needing a private trust arrangement to give themselves land and salaries under secrecy like pigs in mud!!!

  15. soddenleaf 17

    anti abortionist believes it’s a man’s right to harness a women for pregnancy for 9 months, risk death, psychological harm, infertility, then years of crying, demanding, milk sucking… …only a person who believes women have no life could argue they are pro-life.

    • Gosman 17.1

      At what stage of pregnancy would you make it difficult (if not illegal) to have an abortion?

      • McFlock 17.1.1

        At what stage of pregnancy do you regard it as anything other than a medical decision that’s none of your business?

        • Gosman 17.1.1.1

          Exactly. That is the question. You can’t seriously tell me that a woman at 40 weeks pregnancy should be able to treat her situation as purely a medical condition that has having an abortion as an option outside an extreme life threatening scenario can you?

          • McFlock 17.1.1.1.1

            You’re seriously positing the scenario that a woman will go through that shit for 38 weeks and then opt for a termination through simple lack of impulse control?

            • Gosman 17.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m providing a scenario which is an entirely possible one and therefore which the law needs to take in to account.

              • McFlock

                Entirely possible? Given that an abortion without good reason after 39 weeks of putting up with pregnancy is a logical contradiction, it’s not possible.
                Late term abortions are possible, and always the least-worst medical outcome for a tragic situation that you’re using for political masturbation.

                • Gosman

                  It is entirely possible. You just don’t like to think of the moral consequences.

                  • McFlock

                    Describe, precisely, what you think “it” is, please. Because I think you’re deliberately inventing a bullshit bogeyman in order to deny people urgent, albeit exceptionally rare, medical care. And I really hope there is an afterlife where you can reap the “moral consequences” of that.

            • AsleepWhileWalking 17.1.1.1.1.2

              Lol

          • arkie 17.1.1.1.2

            I can seriously tell you that what your hypothetical woman does with her body is no-ones business but her own and her doctor.

            You’re saying there IS a time in a women’s pregnancy that you would have the State take away her bodily autonomy.

            • Gosman 17.1.1.1.2.1

              Yes otherwise there is all sorts of legal issues around premature babies. Ultimately the State has to decide at which point the Woman has the right to control the life of her baby and at which point it has rights of it’s own.

              • arkie

                So at what point would your State determine that an already living person has their rights ignored because of what they have in their womb?

                • Gosman

                  At the point the fetus becomes viable for life (between 20 -24 Weeks).

                  At which point would you allow an abortion?

                  • arkie

                    I don’t have a womb so I don’t have an opinion.

                    So what would your forced-birthing State do about these ‘viable’ fetus now they are in the world? Would your State support these people to raise their forced-birth?

                • Carolyn_Nth

                  I think the problem starts before the foetus is formed in the womb. It takes 2 to make a baby. If too many men persist in spilling their seed wherever and however they want, the state needs to step in and take away their bodily autonomy.

                  So, I propose a bill requiring men must apply for a fucking permit from their doctor and local council if they wish to have heterosexual sex. They would need to provide medical evidence that their health will be compromised if they do mot have heterosexual intercourse.

                  • arkie

                    Good idea! Long before ‘viability’.

                    and @Gosman it’s a cop-out to not answer my questions.

                  • Brigid

                    I would second such a bill.
                    Lets call it the ‘Men and their needs’ bill.

                  • McFlock

                    I think that, for a rational discussion of that proposal, only female legislators should be on the select committee that examines that legislation.

                  • One Two

                    …it takes 2 to make a baby

                    2 permits would be required for your proposal then eh…

                    Hope you’re ok, C_n…

                    That comment is far below your usual level of insight…

                  • Tricledrown

                    Carylon Nth Gosamers not good enough

  16. Tricledrown 18

    Exkiwiforces Ron Mark will be long gone before these upgrades are delivered if the defence force get all the planes, that’s up to $4 billion cost over 6 to 10 years.
    New frigates $8 billion new patrol boats
    Defence spending to late to order when war breaks out.

    • Exkiwiforces 18.1

      If Ronnie can sort this out then https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-06-2018/#comment-1496937 a lot of the big tickets will fall into place especially if the NZG and future NZG’s are to looking to more involved in the Sth Pacific/ Antarctic Regions.

      These platforms are critical for the South Pacific/ Antarctic reset for MFAT, Aid and the NZDF MAP to the South Nations

      The P3 replacement
      The B757/C-130 replacement
      The third OPV design for the Southern Ocean, as the other two OPV’s have some major design limitations for use in the Southern Ocean.
      A new Dive ship/ Mine Counter Measure/ Hydrographic Ship this Project got can with cost blow out the ANZAC Frigate upgrade, but the British MOD are having a fire sale of RN ships so a suitable one maybe there or a commercial ship from the oil and gas industry which the last dive ship was an Ex North Sea oil/ gas support vessel.
      HMNZS Canterbury’s mid life refit.

      The ANZAC replacements are about 10-15 yrs away at least, but if the Strategic Environment does change for the worst, which I think is going to happen then it may have to be brought forward as NZ economic wealth is export lead which in turn means it needs Secure Sea Lanes of Communication IOT Export and Import of goods to generate its economic wealth without it we are stuff.

  17. Eco Maori 19

    Good morning The AM Show has Winston missed his morning interview with the AM Show Duncan well you have to remember he was at Kororo Wetere tangi .
    Tawhirir has been going hard it’s cold and wet. I don’t think I bullied seenothing ECO Maori just told it like I seen it with the show.
    Ka pai Phil Goff yes we need to fix the Auckland waste water problems it show you how some people treat public putea they just waste it with no concerns at all or is it lining their m8s hip pocket. My point is Auckland water testing of our beaches was a helicopter fly out to the site to take a sea water sample and 2 days later they have there results to late and a waste of public putea. This type of behavior will be happening throughout our public government systems left over by shonky .
    With Prefabricated building the quality will be better than the way we build now there are many innovative ways to save money on these houses. Ka kite ano

  18. Eco Maori 20

    Sara Huckabee Sanders if you have a public profile and the public disagree with yours or your bosses views on his on how the Papatuanukue should behave / treat other human beings well if the public don’t let you know that they disagree with what’s is happening than how will you know what you /he is doing wrong. That’s how a democracy works te tangata let you know when they are not happy with the path that we are heading down Ka kite ano P.S I say we need more people to stand up and voice there consenrns

  19. R.P Mcmurphy 21

    Wairarapa local MP for the nationals party allistair scott says he cannot see why the government is in the business of owning schools and hospitals. well I am sorry if he cant see what is in front of his nose. The people want the government to own them. They do not trust private ownership of these vital parts of society and if scott wants to keep his seat he should pull his head in. even his rural constituency wont wear this sort of nonsense.

  20. Pat 22

    he makes the mistake of assuming the objective of schools and hospitals is to provide private profit not provide a necessary public service, as you note, he appears somewhat confused

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