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Open mike 25/06/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 25th, 2020 - 131 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

131 comments on “Open mike 25/06/2020 ”

  1. Sabine 1

    reading the comments on the daily review about the guy who 'only left his room to take the elevator to go to the smoking box' but he did as he told?

    Question: how can one keep 2 meters distance in an elevator and in a smokers box?

    And how can leaving your room be considered 'doing as i was told' or are we to believe that they were told that mingling in elevators and tiny rooms is akin to 'keeping two meters distance at all times'? (and as an ex smoker myself i spend my fair share in 'smokes cubicles' there is no way he could have maintained safe distance)

    Maybe you know, its not the government so much as really it is entitled kiwis coming back not giving a shit?

    Seriously, i am happy to complain about the government (irrespective of the party who runs it), but this to me is more an issue of people blatantly ingnoring the rules, behaving irresponsibly, and heck i am at this point where really can the government hand the handling and managing of returning kiwis and quarantine requirement over to the Military? They have the resources to build temporary housing (tent stylez i don't care), have cooks and mobile kitchens, have doctors and nurses at hand and so on and so forth and surely no one would manage to leave the premises, not even for a smoke. Granted it ain't the Ibis but it seems that so far they don't seem to be happy with that either?

    Time for some tough love?

    • I Feel Love 1.1

      I'm just amazed at this, during lockdown while shopping people were avoiding each other as best we could, there was no police or army telling us what to do, yet these new arrivals need their hands held. Maybe education needs to be ramped up?

      • Sabine 1.1.1

        yes, that is my issue i have.

        Surely they were given advise on how to behave, they were told to 'self manage' as responsible adults / parents should/ would and they gave no shits, and now are complaining that the government did not lock them into their rooms with a guard on the outside.

        Fuck, build the quarantine tents, put them up, and let the Military take care of them. Then they will have something to complain about.

        But they actually endangered others to get a smoke, a drink or some outside action. Fuck em.

        • Incognito 1.1.1.1

          The way I see it, there are basically three categories of people of unequal size:

          1. People who don’t like to be told asked what to do, who often feel patronised, e.g. by a young(er) woman person, and who will often do the opposite of the request even if it is to their own detriment and/or that of others.
          2. People who need to be given clear guidance what to do and who will do their best to follow that guidance, especially when it comes from an authoritative source.
          3. People who don’t need to be asked and who will use sound judgement and do the appropriate thing under the circumstances with proper consideration of others too.
          4. People who have got their heads stuck somewhere in a deep and dark bubble with weird echoing sounds and a cone of silence and denial to keep out facts and inconvenient information.
          • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.1.1

            I recall being taught in primary school that "four into three doesn't go". 😉 However your fourth category does seem remarkably like National supporters!

            I like the notion that the public can be subdivided into behavioural categories for the purpose of policy implementation. It would make govt operations more sophisticated than the `one plan fits all approach' – if it works in practice.

          • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1.2

            Your forgetting absentminded fools who want to do the right thing but are capable of getting to fridge and have know idea why! So need nice big signs and lots of reminders on what behaviors are needed.

            • greywarshark 1.1.1.1.2.1

              Too true bwaghorn about reverting to default. Ever meant to go somewhere and pick up/drop off something away from the usual route, and go right by the turnoff? What a turn-off. So allowing for reminders to be up and about all the time will be necessary. There is an aspect to my mind which will 'remember' things in a faulty fashion, that suits my preference – the appointment was at 9am not 9.30 etc.

              No. 3 of ianmac needs to include good information and explanation provided then —people use their sound judgment (that is necessary as explained), and do the appropriate thing.

              I like to know why myself, not just to be herded, in the normal way. Thinking about returning kiwis, they probably left with the belief that NZ was backward and they being bright, were leaving for better opportunities. They might want to kick up now they are back, and not at first realise that we have lots of good practices for which they need to be thankful. And then conform to requirements of the country and community where they have returned to seek sanctuary.

              Theyactually need to humble themselves and be grateful and willing to fit into the community, these smart alises/aleks (the letter changed to avoid personal identification). And realise that the cutthroat economic system that they have been operating under overse they will experience here. Most of us will have lost part of our heritage of a decent life in a pleasant country with opportunities for social mobility for all, through the workings of the neolib/freemarket economy that has churned out wealth from its machine-minds at great cost to many.

            • Incognito 1.1.1.1.2.2

              That’s why I highly recommend a separate beer & wine fridge with a big sign: Take Three Times Daily. I usually lose count at three.

          • McFlock 1.1.1.1.3

            There are also the people who will mingle with other smokers for two weeks, knowing thatisolation cohorts are mixing in the smokers room even though the lifts are controlled, but not raise it with anyone that there's a hole in the system.

            Stupidity needs to be accounted for – double-fence accessible exercise areas, with the separation distance between the fences.
            Have a small smoking area for each cohort. Make it a room on each floor if you have to – covid is a far bigger hazard than passive smoking at this stage. No lifts, no excuse to leave the floor without a scheduled appointment or exercise session.

            • Incognito 1.1.1.1.3.1

              Smoking is known to affect brain function and is thought to play a role in cerebral atherosclerosis. There are also studies that have shown an inverse correlation between smoking and IQ although it is unclear whether this points to a causative relationship and, if so, in what direction.

              • McFlock

                lol if only "notice, and bitch about, obvious hazard, but never report it to anyone in a position to deal with that hazard" was restricted to smokers.

                Had that in a security job – folks had to provide their own footwear (we were arguing this with bosses), chap stepped on a board and a nail went through his shoe (just missed his toes). Bitched about it a few days later, I asked "did you file a hazard?" Nope. Guy almost had a nail through his foot, but never told anyone in management or OSH or HR even though he bitched about it in the tearoom.

                They got a bit better after a few months – someone slipped on ice, filed a report, everyone had company-bought yaktraks the next day.

        • aj 1.1.1.2

          But they actually endangered others to get a smoke, a drink or some outside action. Fuck em.

          Absolutely.

          Let's not lose perspective though. Thousands have gone through this process without crying to the National Party, the Media, or anyone else that would listen. So we are left with a relatively small number of complete plonkers who fall into the first and fourth category in Incognito's concise summary at 1.1.1.1

          (which is 1st class in every sense)

          • aj 1.1.1.2.1

            Some in the media are using the term 'hostility' when writing about kiwi's attitude to returning nationals. No, it's not that. It's "Kia ora and welcome home. Please do as you are told and follow instructions to the letter. Don't sweat the small stuff. Do your time and enjoy it. See you on the other side"

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    James challenges Winston's credibility (rather well): https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300041542/james-shaw-says-nz-first-are-breaching-their-coalition-agreement-by-axing-light-rail-plan

    Shaw said it was ironic that a party that supposedly cared so much about contract law – a reference to NZ First pulling its support for a bill on corporate rent – was so happy to breach its agreement with Labour. "I do find it ironic that a party that has been using the cover of the sanctity of contract law to protect property investors from small businesses can't even uphold its coalition agreement."

    Light rail is not included in the arrangement between Labour and NZ First, but there is a reference to NZ First working in good faith to honour the other agreement making up the Government – the confidence and supply agreement with the Greens. "New Zealand First and Labour agree that they will each act in good faith to allow any other agreements to be complied with," the coalition agreement between NZ First and Labour reads.

    Light rail is mentioned in the agreement between the Greens and Labour, specifically a line stating that: "Work will begin on light rail from the city to the airport in Auckland."

    NZ First leader Winston Peters said it was his reading of the clause that his party would act in good faith with the Greens, but did not actually bind his agreement to theirs. "It asks us to act in good faith using our best information to make judgements on matters," Peters said. Pushed on this point Peters asked that the reporter go to the Human Rights Commission to get an interpretation of the clause.

    Weasel words, Winston! Claiming that a contract commitment says something different to what it actually says may be standard practice for a lawyer, but is unlikely to impress the average kiwi.

    Shaw said he was pleased that light rail would be able to progress following the election, as the decision announced on Wednesday didn't change the fact that money had been allocated for light rail through the National Land Transport Fund – something NZ First had voted for. "NZ First themselves voted for the Auckland light rail – it's part of the Government Policy Statement 2018 that they voted for," Shaw said. "They might have forgotten that they voted for it, but they did."

  3. Sabine 3

    diclaimer: i have never voted NZFirst and don't plan on it.

    but from March this year:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12336167

    This week Peters, who is also NZ First leader, seemed to cast the project's future into further doubt just hours after Transport Minister Phil Twyford said the Government was "highly motivated" to progress.

    On Tuesday Twyford said that Cabinet would "soon" decide on its preferred delivery partner – either the NZ Transport Agency or NZ Infra, the joint venture between the New Zealand Super Fund and Canada's CDPQ Infra group.

    But asked about the project, Peters said there had been massive cost blowouts.

    "It's not going to happen in the immediate term," he said.

    "We've always been for heavy rail around this country. Our programme is on target, as you know, and light rail has been suspended in terms of planning for the immediate future."

    Last year Peters also raised concerns about cost blowouts for the project, which has been estimated to cost $6 billion.

    But NZ Infra director Will Goodwin dismissed a costs blowout – though he wouldn't be drawn on specifics.

    "We've seen speculation of costings blowing out to as much as $10b. While we cannot get into specifics about what the cost of our proposal will be, we've previously said this speculation is substantially wide of the mark.

    "Costs incurred to date are commercially sensitive and confidential."

    He would not say how much money NZ Infra had sunk into it so far, but he remained committed to the project and supported Twyford's view that Cabinet would look at the issue soon.

    i mean, heck , a billion here a billion there and sure you are talking about shitloads of petty cash that the taxpayer has to come up with.

    to boot a slow effn train to the airport? there are already trains going to Mangere so essentially we only needed to build an extention to the Airport from Mangere. Or is that too easy and not sexy enough.

    Maybe the issue is not so much Winston Peters and the points that he raised for a while now, but rather that the government over promised on something not too many are keen other then the people who most likely will never use the 'slow train' aka the polititians.

    Also in this current climate where tourists might not be coming anytime soon, and we have different more pressing needs for the money taxpayers can actually raise this is a pure vanity project that serves no one.

    As for the greens, sorry dudes – lets hold a referendum about this – let the people of NZ vote if they want to provide the funds to build a Tram to the Airport at a cost of somewhere 6 – 10 billion plus. Without any added Gummibears.

    added, if a heavy train station / stop at the airport were to be build that could then also service trains coming from Hamilton etc, or are we next gonna build a Tram to the airport from Hamilton? Or is that future thinking and that is also not something we want to discuss right now?

    • SPC 3.1

      I prefer the rail extension to the airport and light rail for Dominion Road where it is needed.

      • Sabine 3.1.1

        That would make sense.

        The ariport needs heavy rail to actually allow others to travel there by train rather then car.

        So maybe Winston has a point, and that is what upsets the others suits so.

    • Foreign waka 3.2

      The issue is: No plan only vested interests. Clear to see if anyone wants to look.

      I actually will vote for Winston this election if he stands as he is at the moment – very surprisingly – the only sane voice I hear.

      Otherwise, a lot of molly cotton political correct BS, or stirring the proverbial is all that is on offer right now.

      No plan, no idea how to get a frame work in place that gets businesses attracted and bound to rules, environmental issues considered, future proof (science, facts) for production, farming implemented and for once haunt this in the same way as remiss beneficiaries. Instead we have major issues such as Auckland running out of water – I am curious, is someone pumping the aquifer for exporting water? This would lower the table and in the end may rise salinity. Now there is a thought.
      As for rail, get all the trucks off the road and onto rail, you will be surprised at the cost factor and environmental positive impact. This is a proven concept, but hay – did I mention vested interests?

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    Toby Manhire's editorial view of David Clark: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/25-06-2020/david-clark-is-not-responsible/

    the principle of ministerial responsibility does not magically exclude “operational matters”. A 2013 Labour Party press release from then shadow leader of the house and now speaker Trevor Mallard welcomed a speaker’s ruling on parliamentary questions with the headline, “Ministers are responsible for operational matters”.

    Jeez, who knew?? We've had years of National/Labour ministers claiming the opposite. Okay, they'd all dismiss Mallard as just being Mallard, but what if he's right??

    Individual ministerial responsibility is a constitutional convention. Members of cabinet are individually responsible in three main ways:

    • they are accountable for decisions that they take in relation to their portfolio responsibilities
    • they are responsible for their own professional and personal conduct
    • they are responsible for decisions and actions (and the consequences that follow) of individuals and organisations for which they have ministerial responsibility, whether or not they were party to or knew of those actions. This is known as vicarious ministerial responsibility. https://teara.govt.nz/en/cabinet-government/page-6

    I suspect that, when he was supposed to attend the training session in which he was to be taught how to be vicarious, he was off mountain-biking.

    • SPC 4.1

      So why has only one PM resigned (Lange) because they have lost confidence in their Ministers ability to do the right thing.

      After all resigning because of vicarious responsibility is really because of loss of trust in those in the ministry to provide operational delivery.

      In this instance Clark had confidence in Bloomfield to sort it (albeit it involving transfer of facility oversight to the Housing Minister – as in procurement of accommodation)

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1

        Perhaps Lange was honourable & the others not? But what the govt web-page neglects is an explanation how those responsibilities are enacted. Elsewhere? Or left to the discretion of the ministers themselves? I suspect the latter.

        So it's just another left/right sham, probably. Traditional establishment collusion to hoodwink the public. Pretend to do the right thing, then evade the necessity…

    • anker 4.2

      I looked at Clark being interviewed and I think he didn't look to be in a good place. Yes he should have taken responsibility but his credit is very low at the moment and he probably fears calls for his head.

      I was the first to denonce his actions when he breached lockdown. But I posted earlier that he has got a lot of gains for health. Cancer agency and new radiology machines, hospital site for Dunedin and project office (after god knows how many years of nothing). increasing budget for Pharmac. And billions of dollars for mental health. Also if he should be taking responsibility for the operational failing, then he must be due some credit for the success of our Covid response………it must work both ways. After I posted the above gains on an earlier postt Ad provided me with some links about health outcomes. Maybe its me but it didn't quite seem relevant. I then looked on the Dept of stats website and I couldnt't see health outcome material that would relate to the vast number of improvements this govt has made. The reality is improving health outcomes has a very, very long tail and things like mental health may not show much improvement at all in the context of Covid and mass unemployment.

      I am sick of the beat up on Clark. He paid his penalty for the lockdown breach. I agree he should have taken responsibility for the stuff up at the border. But he looks to be a man under extraordinary pressure. And if he should take responsibility for the stuff up then he also deserves credit and high praise for how the Covid response has gone.

      I think this govt is carrying a massive burden at the moment and the hysterical attempt by the National Party to wins votes only adds to the pressure. I hope NZders see through them

      • Anne 4.2.1

        I am sick of the beat up on Clark.

        Yes. It is a part of the overall strategy of attack, attack, attack and no matter the consequences or even whether the claims are true. We're seeing it on a daily basis now and its hard to see them being able to keep it up for the next 90 days.

        I watched live the segment of the inquiry where Clark responded to a question from Woodhouse, and I was not left with the impression he was… passing the buck to Bloomfield.

        It could have been better expressed, but all he did was briefly reiterate what happened and pointed out Bloomfield had apologised. Which is true.

        Newshub and O'Brien are doing their usual… playing gotcha politics.

        • Gabby 4.2.1.1

          You can't be responsible for things you can't control, otherwise any bloodyminded pisswit underling could force a resignation by acting like a perverse fukcknuckle.

      • aj 4.2.2

        +1 esp. "And if he should take responsibility for the stuff up then he also deserves credit and high praise for how the Covid response has gone"

    • Enough is Enough 4.3

      I have never seen a politician appear on my twitter feed more than what I saw David Clark last night. The right were ripping into him, but the left were almost as equally outraged with his approach.

      Regardless of the rights or wrongs about what he was saying regarding responsibility, the guy is fucking clueless with how his words were going to play out politically.

      Clark has only been in the headlines during the covid crisis for the wrong reasons. Ashley has been the face that all kiwis tuned into on a daily basis because we all trusted him and his professional, non political, way of dealing with things. Clark humiliating Ashley was a disgrace

      Clark is a political liability and Jacinda needs to remove him.

      • SPC 4.3.1

        Meh.

        He was set up to answer those questions with Bloomfield alongside him.

        Total set up.

        Then the media use Twitter response to this set up to have another go.

        It’s a lynch mob demonstrating their power to manipulate the public.

        It's revenge for being unpopular when Ardern and Bloomfield were the go to people. Now they are leveraging support for Bloomfield to get people angry at Clark – a National target. To take the PM down a peg or two, and glorify themsleves as the new heroes of the peoples safety. Just as National is doing. Talk about a corrupt alliance of glee club with dirty tricks reboot.

        It's going to be hard to mistake MSM pretentiousness for responsibility after this. Maybe the future of the media estate should be with new start ups.

        PS The whole scandal/operational failure issue is that officials did not apply it to those arriving before June 9. So the whole story is about how the media and government became aware of this – and so it was ultimately applied from June 16th, rather than the June 23rd track officials were on.

        • Enough is Enough 4.3.1.1

          The old vast right wing conspiracy – riiiight got ya.

        • Anne 4.3.1.2

          Well explained. Thanks SPC.

          The "scandal" is the despicable attempt by the Opposition to use the pandemic as a political football without a jot of consideration for the people caught in the middle. I refer to the health workers and all the other sectors in society doing their best to keep Covid 19 out of the community, as well as the vast bulk of citizens doing their best to follow the rules and keep themselves safe.

          Those in the media who are aiding and abetting the Nats are equally as obnoxious.

          Personally, I would like to see Jacinda Ardern and co. deliver blistering attacks on their modus operandi and expose them for the self seeking irresponsible assholes they are proving to be.

        • Chris T 4.3.1.3

          The bloke is completely clueless and it makes the govt look weak he still has portfolios.

          You just have to look at his interviews.

          It is like Twyford on steroids.

  5. mauī 5

    Interesting to hear the odious Gyles Beckford on RNZ this morning…

  6. SPC 6

    The Herald's early story is about 1000 people leaving managed isolation after their 14 days without being tested. This between June 9 and June 16.

    And they add from yestersays Radio with Mike the agreement of Gorman with the Husk's own agreement with Muller their might be community transmission.

    Be afraid is the mantra, feel threatened because the officials on the ground essentially at first interpreted the change from June 9, to only to apply to those who arrived after June 9.

    However around 1000 people also left isolation between June 1 and June9 – when no testing was required and in those days Muller was saying go to Level 1 now there is no community spread.

    • Ed1 6.1

      On 8 June, the Prime Minister announced we were going to level 1:

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/418524/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-reveals-move-to-level-1-from-midnight

      "She said the country was ready, now 40 days since the last recorded case of community transmission, 26 days after entering alert level 2, 17 days since a new case, and less than 24 hours since having zero active cases recorded.

      Ardern said New Zealanders did something "remarkable" by uniting in the fight against Covid-19, and had achieved one of the lowest rates per capita in the world.

      "Now under level 1 you can if you want go back to your place of work." "

      On that basis, the last recorded case of community transmission was on 29 April, now 57 days ago.

      Now as I understand it, the aim of our border controls is to ensure that we do not get any further cases of community transmission.

      Given that, do I care if over-worked and stressed employees of the Ministry of Health cannot tell me within an hour the number of visa holders in different categories who have entered New Zealand in the last 10 days, do I care if the taxpayer Onion have published Mullers master plan for the National Party under the heading of a Covid plan?

      57 days of success? Yes I do care about that, but it would be nice to know that is is a valid number.

      Are there any other key measures of success we have forgotten to tell people about?

      • anker 6.1.1

        Ed 1 key measures of success. I think the real evidence re community transmission is no one popping up in hospital/ICU. Even more than testing in the community this is where Covid in the community would appear……..I did a bit of research and the figure given was 20% of people with Covid need hospital care. Of course this can't be a definitive figure, but a useful guide. If NZ has community transmission we should have seen or will be seeing very soon hospital admissions

        • Ed1 6.1.1.1

          anker, I see community infection as not being the same as someone arriving with an infection, or catching the infection from their "bubble" while in quarantine. Yes some will need to be hospitalised, but I believe a key goal is to make sure that no-one catches covid19 from a person out in the community. There is a clear danger for staff and guards at quarantine properties – Victoria in Australia has apparently suffered from that, but if we get community transmission we may well have to go back to Level 2 (as Melbourne has done). So no, someone being admitted to hospital is almost expected from the thousands arriving in New Zealand from countries with infections at a higher level that here.

          My question is whether we can celebrate 57 days without community infection?

          • anker 6.1.1.1.1

            Hi Ed 1 …..I meant no one in the hospital from the community. Eventually some of the border cases will need hospitalization

  7. Adrian 7

    There is no community spread, we are two weeks into Level 1 if it was going to happen considering half the country went to the pub and a million went to sporting events and farmers markets and the movies victims would have presented by now.

    • I Feel Love 7.1

      I liked your comment last night Adrian, you are so right, NZ has (so far) successfully fought the spread of covid, people are scrambling to get back here because of this, the rest of us sucked it up for weeks, these newcomers should too.

      • Adrian 7.1.1

        Thanks IFL, but its just me reflecting the opinions of others I have spoken to recently from surprisingly, both sides of the political spectrum and as a long time arsehole it doesn't take much to arc me up when others arseholery becomes evident. I think it is going to quieten down pretty soon when the media realises they are on the wrong side of the Oh Woe Is Me faction.

        • ianmac 7.1.1.1

          The poll out tonight on TV1 will probably show a swing downwards for the Government but the Nat/media must take "credit" for any loss of confidence. Arseholery indeed.

          • mango 7.1.1.1.1

            I was just getting used to not dreading the next poll after about 11 years of depressing polls. I wonder how many people have forgotten over the last week what has been achieved and who by.

            • Herodotus 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes achieved by THE Team of 5m. I hope you were not referring to a smaller sub team ?👍

          • lprent 7.1.1.1.2

            For the Nats, any way that isn't straight down is a win right now.

            I'd expect a few points up, below 35%, and Labour close to and probably no longer over 50%.

            I'm mostly interested in what it does for the other party support.

          • Chris T 7.1.1.1.3

            What utter pants.

            Any down swing with the Labour coalition will be through incompetence.

            The whole country made a huge sacrifice for where we are only for the officials to cock-up their end.

            And no amount of throwing workers under the bus with blame, changes the fact ultimately it is the coalitions responsibility.

        • aj 7.1.1.2

          both sides of the political spectrum

          eg a friend, Southland farmer, retired, union-hating blue-blue-blue through and through, full of praise for govt response and will probably vote for Jacinda this time round. Scathing of the behaviour of some returnees and constant bagging of Bloomfield et al

          • lprent 7.1.1.2.1

            What is interesting at present (from the people I've been talking to) is that it feels like voters are making their minds up a whole lot earlier this election cycle.

            Lots of time to reflect during the lockdowns? More interest in what is going on. The example of Trump, Johnson and other leaders dithering and blundering badly when under load.

            I suspect that the reality that covid-19 brought is going to do nasty things to some kinds of populists. Those poll figures in the US are brutal (looks them up)

            https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/us/politics/trump-biden-poll-nyt-upshot-siena-college.html

            Drat the numbers didn’t show
            Biden 50%, Trump 36%, Other 14%

            • Cinny 7.1.1.2.1.1

              Dang, that's a helluva lead at this stage in their cycle.

            • SPC 7.1.1.2.1.2

              Trump prophecy and statues to dead white people – and the reckons of white men who did not go to college. Too many of one and not enough of the other to save the Donald

            • Stuart Munro 7.1.1.2.1.3

              The Economist has done some work on this too:

              • lprent

                I think that it is 4-5 months out from the election there (November 3rd). Ummm here. 131 days.

                I'm pretty sure that the probability of Clinton winning was pretty damn high then as well.

                Look at the interactive chart from 538 down a bit on this page.

                Not even going to mention the US Senate. The US system is seriously broken, ineffective, and just damn archaic.

                • Stuart Munro

                  "pretty sure that the probability of Clinton winning was pretty damn high"

                  True.

                  Much depends on whether much of Trump's support, which was previously off conventional radar, has since been identified.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.2.1.4

              Lots of time to reflect during the lockdowns? More interest in what is going on.

              I've been saying for years that the biggest problem with our democracy is that most people just don't have enough time to engage in it as they're too busy/tired from going to work. So, perhaps you're right. The lockdown has given more people the time to engage, time to think.

              • Incognito

                With some people, no matter how much time they’re given, it never lifts the quality of their thinking, as Chris Penk demonstrated with exquisite clarity.

        • I Feel Love 7.1.1.3

          I agree regarding opinions of others, just listening in to others in the staffroom people are pissed off with the people breaking the rules and whining, not the Govt.

          • Cinny 7.1.1.3.1

            people are pissed off with the people breaking the rules and whining, not the Govt.

            That's the feeling around these parts too, some tory work colleagues share the same sentiment.

            One of mum's tory friends even told her they are with-holding their annual generous donation this election because of the lack of leadership in the national party. Mum almost fell off her seat, because her friend is blue to the core.

  8. SPC 8

    The Herald and Newshub are gunning for the Health Minister Clark for stating a fact they do not like.

    He said that the head of the Health Ministry Bloomfield had accepted responsibility for the release of people from managed isolation without testing post June 9 (as he has as head of the ministry). Apparently saying this in front of Bloomfield was supposed to be brutal – Tova O’B and spineless according to some anonymous Herald headline writer (now that is cowardly).

    Then the intellectual affront to the left Chris Trotter says the PM has 24 hours to rid herself of the Minister – why because we are in a post truth age?

    It seems Trotter is the go to guy for backing up every media beat-up going round, Hooton will be loving his stooge brother in arms.

    • SPC 8.1

      Stuff is no better

      Instead, he’s shifted blame to director-general of health Ashley Bloomfield. On Wednesday, Clark continued to blame Bloomfield, even while Bloomfield was in the room.

      How exactly, the head of the ministry had already taken repsonsibility for it himself (the accusation in the quote is unattributed – no name to the story).

      Do we have a MSM or just National attack blogs?

      Was any National Minister asked to resign for the P homes lying empty and the cost of mitigation that was totally unneccesary?

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300041875/david-clark-throws-ashley-bloomfield-under-the-bus-while-bloomfield-looks-on#comments

      FFS, the MSM have yet to work out the reason why the officials were not testing those who arrived before June 9.

      • SPC 8.1.1

        This

        Instead, he’s shifted blame to director-general of health Ashley Bloomfield. On Wednesday, Clark continued to blame Bloomfield, even while Bloomfield was in the room.

        should have been quote form.

        • aj 8.1.1.1

          MSM have yet to work out the reason why the officials were not testing those who arrived before June 9.

          I think Bloomfield has explained this in recent pressers but it's too complicated for the reporters to understand and/or doesn't fit their narrative.

      • greywarshark 8.1.2

        This is what Trotter says. He is not into being kind to Labour Ministers who can help to lose the election. We do want Labour to get in don't we or are some of us not up to facing truth and hard political reality (how many days till the election?)?.

        Left-wing leaning political commentator Chris Trotter told The AM Show that the border bungle had hurt the Government.

        "The one thing they had, the one shining moment in three years, was their handling of the COVID crisis and the last week, I cannot see how that hasn't put a massive dent in their public standing," he said.

        Trotter then hit out at Clark and said Ardern shouldn't simply stand by.

        "I thought the behaviour of David Clark in relation to Ashley Bloomfield was just shameful, absolutely shameful. I am sorry Jacinda, but if you let that stand for the next 24 hours, then it's going to come back on you, because a person like that should not be in his job."

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/06/health-minister-david-clark-s-behaviour-shameful-jacinda-ardern-needs-to-act-commentators.html

        • SPC 8.1.2.1

          Trotter's judgement is unreliable.

          Anyone who is so easily manipulated like an ordinary joe by that sort of media set up is way out of their depth on matters of political advice.

          • AB 8.1.2.1.1

            Chris is given the opportunity to appear on these shows because he will bag the left. Sure, he will try to nuance it in a way that suggests he wants Labour to do more and be more radical – but the the only thing that survives his flowery over-elaborations is the initial bagging. A truly left commentator with an uncompromising analysis of how money power actually works, won't get near these shows.

          • new view 8.1.2.1.2

            SPC

            If you don’t get the whole of NZ is laughing and Clark and his gutless incompetence you and others here never will. Trotter is a realist not a blinkered fool. His political honesty is welcome after the politically blind comments as seen here.

            • SPC 8.1.2.1.2.1

              Some of us are more easily manipulated than others.

              Personally I regard Muller as auditioning for a role as a commentator on the Muppets – 4 weeks of people leaving their managed isolation without being tested under Level 2. His opinion then – there was no evidence of communty transmission so why are we not at Level 1 already.

              One further week of people leaving without beign tested, and his belief is that there is community transmission.

              He is no longer credible.

              Pretending to believe there is suddently some sort of risk, to pander to crisis climate is not the service to the public but to himself and his party.

              If he was a decent man, he is now Hooton's creature.

    • tc 8.2

      If Clark gets moved it gives the repeaters a win. Coming in after 3 terms of national was always the proverbial hospital pass even before covid.

      Geez it's gonna be a fugly campaign based on the bs people are swallowing out there in godzone.

    • tc 8.3

      Granny has an uncredited piece which refers to Tova, Twitter and is clickbaited with 'stabbed in the back'.

      Grans new role in the social media spectrum.

  9. Adrian 9

    During the covid lockdown or other health emergency the Director of Health outranks even the Minister as he has more power at the behest of Government/Parliament not the minister directly. That is the understanding that I heard when he was elevated.

    Dr Bloomfield and his team did a brilliant job.

    As an aside, if you want to know who the arsehole is leaking bullshit and innuendo to the Opposition look no further than whoever it was who thought he/she was entitled to the job when Ashley was appointed DoH. Unfortunate acronym that.

  10. Ad 10

    Great to see Caruso-Cabrera get smashed by AOC for the 14th Congressional district.

    All that big Wall Street money got glug-glugged by massive popular support.

    Wake up and liberalise, Democrats!

    Hang tough AOC.

  11. 40 000 tested No community transmission. All those resources used and overloaded roads parking and laboratories. Thanks Muller and Woodhouse, yelling "Wolf" did that.

    I wonder what the next "Urban Myth" from Woodhouse will be? "Baited breath!!" NOT!!
    Someone could draw Muller’s attention to “We don’t know how lucky we are” by John Clarke.

    • tc 11.1

      Let's hope labour grows a pair and takes woodhouse and the nats games apart here…nice and methodically.

      Show the NZ public the value they're creating in these challenging times. Fit for govt material ?

    • Just Is 11.2

      Yes Patricia, and not a single word from the 2 main media outlets, stuff and The Herald who made the loudest noise over the homeless person, $100k spent on the investigation by the tax payer with no evidence of any homeless person being in the hotel, Woodhouse looked embarrassed on the TV when asked for some evidence to support the allegation and then Muller says he stands behind his minister, Woodhouse, so Muller disagrees with the outcome of the $100K investigation yet has zero evidence to discredit it.

      This is a much bigger story than anything else circulating in the media today, yet, crickets.

  12. observer 12

    On a lighter note …

    With the TVNZ poll out tonight, let's look back at the last one, from May. Just for fun, here's a Quick Quiz:

    10 people got 0.1% support (the lowest possible to be recorded in the poll) as preferred PM. Can you name any of these people (without looking them up)?

    Clues: 4 of them are not in Parliament. 3 women, 7 men. Any guesses?

  13. greywarshark 13

    How's Julian Assange getting on I wondered?

    https://www.axios.com/julian-assange-wikileaks-anonymous-fdf2f45a-06e3-4743-b685-97d9984ba2da.html

    The Justice Department announced on Wednesday that WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has been charged in a superseding indictment for recruiting and conspiring with computer hackers, including those affiliated with the hacking groups LulzSec and "Anonymous."

    Why it matters: The new indictment does not add new counts to the 18-count indictment filed against Assange under the Espionage Act last year, but it does "broaden the scope of the conspiracy surrounding alleged computer intrusions with which Assange was previously charged," according to the DOJ.

    (Sounds as if they are trying to treat Assange as a nuisance, commercially motivated, hostile hacker against nation/s, rather than for revealing wrongs done – important difference.)
    .

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-issues-new-indictment-against-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-2020-06-24

    https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2020/06/21/julian-assange-fiancee-plea/

    Assange didn’t appear via video link for his most recent court matter in London’s Westminster Magistrates’ Court in early June.

    His defence team had emailed court that their client had “had respiratory problems for some time”, the court heard.

    WikiLeaks confirmed Assange had been advised against going to the video conferencing room in Belmarsh prison by his doctors and was at high risk of contracting COVID-19 due to an underlying lung condition.

    Assange is next scheduled to appear in court on June 29 for a routine call over.

    “He’s very unwell and I’m very concerned about his ability to survive this,” Ms Moris said.

    He’s not a criminal. He’s not a dangerous person. He’s a gentle intellectual, a thinker.”

    Ms Moris, 37, said Assange was being kept alone in a tiny room and was “very depressed.

  14. greywarshark 14

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/419793/hawke-s-bay-water-rules-watered-down-despite-disagreement

    Shades of Flint and money before public service. Decisions influenced by advancement for whom?

    On Flint's fight for decent government provision and the dire response to obvious problems and health damage because of bad water policies.
    See my earlier – https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-23-06-2020/#comment-1722123 from 23 June.
    .

    Recent 4 June 2020 developments from adam, thanks. https://statuscoup.com/category/people-planet/flint-water-crisis/

  15. ianmac 15

    I was hoping that those who have daily connections with a cross-section of people might be able to tell me what the feeling for Government's handling of the crisis is. I have read all the comments above thanks everyone. Any others?

    • I Feel Love 15.1

      My staffroom is always interesting, broad cross section of ages and backgrounds, I mentioned above, but I had a giggle listening in they were livid about Woodhouse (I'm in Dunedin) & someone mentioned how Hosking is all over the place, "he just says any old crap".

  16. joe90 16

    FB lunacy is winning.

    • ianmac 16.1

      Terrifying Joe!

      • joe90 16.1.1

        These clowns are prepared to exploit one of the very few concessions an able world grants to those with disabilities.

        Says it all, really.

        The SLO County Public Health Department is warning residents that various cards claiming to exempt the holder from California’s face covering ordinance are fraudulent and not endorsed by the U.S. Department of Justice.

        In a “rumor alert” posted to the department’s Facebook page on June 22, county staff linked to a recent press release posted by the U.S. Department of Justice, which says that various printouts of face covering exemption cards, many of which include the U.S. Department of Justice seal, are floating around the internet.

        click to enlarge EXEMPT? Fraudulent cards claiming to exempt the holder from California’s face covering ordinance are floating around SLO County Facebook groups. - SCREENSHOT FROM FACEBOOK

        • SCREENSHOT FROM FACEBOOK
        • EXEMPT? Fraudulent cards claiming to exempt the holder from California’s face covering ordinance are floating around SLO County Facebook groups.

        “These postings were not issued by the department and are not endorsed by the department,” the press release reads. “The department urges the public not to rely on the information contained in these postings and to visit ada.gov for ADA [Americans with Disabilities Act] information issued by the Department.”

        https://www.newtimesslo.com/SLOthevirus/archives/2020/06/23/slo-county-public-health-department-warns-of-fake-face-covering-exemption-cards

  17. observer 17

    Covid Update:

    Over 10,000 tests conducted yesterday. Community transfer: zero. Not one case. After 16 days at level 4.

    Dr Todd Muller was not available for comment.

    • Dennis Frank 17.1

      Community transfer: zero

      I support your emphasis on this important point because Nats & media aren't acknowledging it sufficiently. They need to get real asap. Valid to expose the quarantine shambles, but we're moving on from that. If they keep banging the drum regardless, it will piss everyone else off big-time.

      • I Feel Love 17.1.1

        That's how I see it DF, let the media bleat on, eventually they'll be ignored because they're plain wrong and delusional.

    • greywarshark 17.2

      Dr Todd Mull er – is he doc of anything?

      Incidentally I am thinking we need a change in honorific/title treatment – and Doctor should be followed by two letter code ie MD. Well they do it elsewhere I think. I think of doctor as being medical doctor, so I would like to know what sort of professional I am listening to. Could have a Dr PR and that would be very useful to know.

    • Barfly 17.3

      You mean level 1?

  18. dv 18

    US covid new cases 39k yesterday Thats a record i think

    31k and 36k in the 2 days before that.

  19. Fireblade 19

    33 new cases in the Australian state of Victoria today.

  20. xanthe 20

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/25-06-2020/david-clark-is-not-responsible/

    This is one very good summation of the clark stumble

    It’s by Toby Manhire and is correctly labeled “opinion”

    altho as usual the sub heading is false (toby makes no reference to creating “a problem for Jacinda Ardern”)

  21. ianmac 21

    Surprised that Tuesday 30 July is the last day of the House sitting.

  22. Cinny 22

    Crikey, Qtime is a bit meows today.

    Dr custard aka nick smith was kicked out, for his usual problem… out of line interjecting.

    Unfortunately for him he had a question to ask later on.

    " Hon Dr NICK SMITH to the Minister of Justice: Is his Electoral (Registration of Sentenced Prisoners) Amendment Bill, as passed through its third reading under urgency last night, good law? "

    Then ole entitled gerry wanted Dr custard's question to be reinstated and asked by another MP. A bit of argey bargey later with Trevor; because, let's face it, ole entitled gerry won't back down even if he is wrong. Nek minute, ole entitled gerry was kicked out too.

    Good job Mr Speaker yes

    It's around 3.22 on this clip

    https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=213438

  23. Just Is 23

    The results of the Colmar Brunton Poll tonight will be a very good indicator of just how influential the media is.

    With relentless attacks on the Coalition, everything from bungling incompetence to conflicts within the Coalition, none of which are supported by any substantiating evidence apart from media releases of which are headed with 'Opinion'.

    A very large swing against the Govt will give everyone something to be concerned about.

    • Incognito 23.1

      No point of opinion polls if no media megaphone to opine on public opinion.

      • Just Is 23.1.1

        Correct, but there's always an extent of influence, something that can be guaged, which is a good indicator of wether the public agree with the media sentiment or have personally chosen to disagree.

        In the end the only poll that matters is in 88 days, a lot water to go under the bridge yet though.

        • Just Is 23.1.1.1

          The Poll result doesn't appear to have been influenced by the last few days of hyperbole, Muller was expected to get high support after his predecessor and the rusted on supporters, Nat voters showing their support, NZF though, are probably the biggest losers but we know that at election day they usually do much better.

          Labour could govern alone on 50%, the Greens back at 5%, NZF on 2%

          National on 36%, Act on 4%

          Pretty much the result you would expect after the removal of Bridges, restoration of support from the party faithfull.

  24. Just Is, A great deal depends on how people react to Woodhouse's "story".

    I think everyone found that a "Stretch'

    Muller will appeal to old time National more than Bridges did, but people won't thank him for playing on their fears. We live in interesting times.

    As you say, the media have played this like a violin chorus, wailing in the pits, becoming a little too shrill…… waiting….. Just hope people recognise genuine mahi.

    • Just Is 24.1

      "We live in interesting times"

      Yes, the era of Fake News, sadly, people believe the News, corporate owned media outlets manipuate opportunities that suit there narrative.

  25. Gabby 25

    Lisa Owen has a bit of an apology fetish apparently. She seems to feel obliged to reorganise the Cabinet as well.

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