Open mike 25/11/2024

13 comments on “Open mike 25/11/2024 ”

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1. Jenny 1

   25 November 2024 at 9:44 am

   Israel's international legal impunity is coming to an end.

   In the light of the ICC's recent decision to issue arrest warrants for Israeli leaders, our opposition MPs need to be asking the government what the government policy on these warrants is? And what the government intend to do, if further, (possibly sealed), arrest warrants are issued against any other Israeli citizens?

   Owen Jones interviews Dr. Alonso Gurmendi (London School of Economics)

   "Why Israel Is RIGHT To Panic Over ICC Arrest Warrants"

   (And why NZ should too)

   Well maybe not "panic" so much, as scramble to get our country's international legal responsibilities in line with the ICC's international rulings that end Israel's legal impunity.

   We need to have our act together.

   The magnitude of Israel's genocidal extermination of Palestinians in Gaza, that is being live streamed, in real time, in full view of the whole world, means that Israel's international legal impunity, to do whatever it likes to the indigenous Palestinian population is coming to its inevitable end.

   Dr. Alonso Gurmendi explains why the arrest warrants could be a game changer, not just for Israel and Palestine, but for the entire global order.

   No more will NZ armed forces be legally able to attend war games where they train beside the IDF, without the risk of attracting condemnation from the Global South and even possible boycotts and law suits.

   No longer will Israeli citizens with links to the IDF, or the Israeli government, be able to enjoy the visa free entry privileges to this country, (that are not reciprocal), that they currently enjoy, without attracting the scrutiny of our Security Services to make sure that they have not be named as having been involved in committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, which could open up this country to legal risk.

   Further arrest warrants may not be publicly disclosed.

   @10:06 minutes

   Owen Jones;

   …..the other point is as well, arrest warrants don't need to be made public. So you could have further arrest warrants, on further charges, but they may not be publicly disclosed.

   Alonso Gurmendi;

   …..I'm sure it was a very big debate for the prosecutor.

   'What do I do?',

   'Do I announce publicly, I am requesting these arrest warrants? And then any kind of political or legal pressure that he his team would face would need to also be public. um. or 'do I do it under secrecy, hoping that Israel never finds out?' um. And so clearly he decided to go for the public option.

   He doesn't need to do that again. He can now. you know. I don't know the expression, the rabbit is out of the hat.

   I guess um so he can keep on um doing it now…..

   [AI generated transcript, lightly edited for clarity. J.]

   Presumably this means our security and police and border protection services will be handed an ICC watch list of suspected war criminals to be apprehended if they try to enter this country.

   Will the government instruct our security and legal enforcement services to adhere to this legally binding international requirement?

   Questions for answer.

   Reply
   • Mike the Lefty 1.1

     25 November 2024 at 12:05 pm

     I was reading a British history book recently and it talked about the Anglo-Saxon custom of the King and/or his council declaring someone as "nithing", which means pretty much "nothing". Such a person was like an outlaw except that it was indefinite and could only be revoked by the King. Being nithing meant that no-one would (or should) aid you in any way, believe anything you say, and would not be accused of murder if they killed you. Nithing effectively meant you were worthless and had no rights.

     That's what Netanyahu should be, nithing.

     Reply
     • Jenny 1.1.1

       25 November 2024 at 2:23 pm

       Are you saying that medieval nithings wouldn't have diplomatic immunity?

       Because that has already gone.

       The modern legal equivalent of nithing, especially in diplomatic cireles, would be Persona Non Grata

       Persona non grata is a Latin phrase that means "unwelcome person". It has multiple meanings, including:

       • In diplomacy

         A foreign diplomat who is asked to return to their home country by the host country. If the diplomat does not return, the host country may not recognize them as a member of the diplomatic mission…..

       We will be spared the unedifying spectacle of Netanyahu ever taking the podium at the UN again to lecture the whole world that we are 'Anti-Semitic', Because the United Nations is technically not on United States soil, my other guess is that Netanyahu won't be stepping foot any time soon on the legally defined grounds of the United Nations in New York, where he doesn't enjoy the protection of the US.

       Generally political leaders have diplomatic immunity while visiting the UN, but according to international law, war criminals do not have diplomatic immunity under any circumstances. Accordingly countries must waive the diplomatic immunity of wanted war criminals if they leave their territory, for any other.

       The United Nations is technically not on United States soil

       Just like the Vatican in Italy has sovereignty over the land it occupies in Rome, the UN has sovereignty over the land it occupies, in New York. The UN has its own sovereign police force, fire department, and post office.

       Kevin O'Hanlon is the Deputy Chief of Security for the United Nations. The United Nations Security officers are responsible for the security of the UN Headquarters. They are armed with handcuffs and weapons, and are sometimes mistaken for New York City Police Department (NYPD) officers because of their similar uniforms.

       Kevin O'Hanlon answers to Chief Administrative Officer of the United Nations.

       António Guterres is the current Secretary-General of the United Nations and the head of the United Nations Secretariat.

       The Secretary-General also holds the position of the Chief Administrative Officer of the United Nations.

       It seems that O'Hanlon and his team will not arrest Netanyahu, but they will bar him from UN grounds, if he comes near the UN.

       ("Hypothetically" if Netanyahu pushed the issue he would be arrested. But that is not likely to happen.
       I suspect that states like New Zealand will act the same way. Individuals subject to ICC arrest warrants trying to enter New Zealand will not be arrested but banned from entry and turned away at the border.)

       UN chief 'respects' work of ICC after arrest warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant issued

       'The rule is that there should not be any contacts between UN officials and individuals subject to arrest warrants,' says spokesman

       Merve Aydogan |21.11.2024 – Update : 22.11.2024

       …..Spokesman Stephane Dujarric said at a news conference that "the Secretary-General (Antonio Guterres) respects the work and independence of the international criminal court," when he was asked about the warrants.

       ….. Dujarric refrained from commenting on "hypothetical" incidents and said the security personnel of the headquarters are there to "keep the building safe. They're not here to arrest people."

       …..He noted that "the rule is that there should not be any contacts between UN officials and individuals subject to arrest warrants."….

       ….."As I've said, there are clear guidelines that have been agreed to between the International Criminal Court and the United Nations on ways for the secretary general or senior officials to continue to do their work," he added.

       https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/un-chief-respects-work-of-icc-after-arrest-warrants-for-netanyahu-gallant-issued/3400609

       • International Law Commission

         The International Law Commission's draft articles remove immunities for war crimes, genocide, torture, crimes against humanity, and forced disappearance.

       • Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations

         The Vienna Convention's purpose is to ensure that diplomatic missions can perform their functions efficiently, not to benefit individuals. Article 31, paragraph 1 of the Vienna Convention states that diplomatic agents are immune from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving state. However, the international community has made efforts to strengthen accountability for war crimes through international conventions and tribunals.

       • Diplomatic immunity and accountability

         Diplomatic immunity is a necessary tool for diplomatic relations, but it should not shield diplomats from accountability for serious crimes.

       The level of diplomatic immunity depends on rank. The sending state is responsible for the immunity of its diplomats, and must waive it. [in the case of grave crimes]

       Reply
2. Mike the Lefty 2

   25 November 2024 at 10:01 am

   TJ Perinara's references to the Treaty in the All Blacks' pre-match haka against Italy are significant in more than more way.

   We can all remember how All Black rugby was a staunch supporter of the establishment, conservativism, you know the "keep sport out of politics" agenda; although arguably this was before the true professional era.

   New Zealand players even went ahead with a secretly planned unofficial tour of South Africa during the apartheid era, with the tacit support of National and most of the NZ Rugby boards.

   But that seems to have all changed, the All Blacks and their female counterparts the Black Ferns feel no longer constrained to hold their thoughts on what is happening with the Treaty Principles Bill. There have always been many Maori and (more recently) Pasifika players in the national teams but until the last few years they have largely kept their own counsel on politics, possibly because they felt it would go badly with their careers if they didn't.

   Now they realise they can be outspoken and another big difference is that in the past they would have been denounced as loudmouth hotheads and warned with being dropped from the playing squads, but now they are widely applauded for having the moral courage to speak up, and seemingly it is helping rather than hindering their professional careers.

   Reply
3. koina 3

   25 November 2024 at 10:13 am

   Yeah but TJ is retiring. Hes 30 years old.

   Why did he not speak up when he was 20?

   Made all the money first then decides to become political when it wont hurt his career or his bank account.

   Reply
   • Jilly Bee 3.1

     25 November 2024 at 10:43 am

     The Treaty Principles Bill wasn't on the drawing board 10 years ago –

     What Mike the Lefty said: 'Now they realise they can be outspoken and another big difference is that in the past they would have been denounced as loudmouth hotheads and warned with being dropped from the playing squads, but now they are widely applauded for having the moral courage to speak up, and seemingly it is helping rather than hindering their professional careers.'

     Reply
   • gsays 3.2

     25 November 2024 at 10:52 am

     Time to pull your head in koina.

     You are an anonymous keyboard warrior, Perenara is a high-profile prominent athlete.

     Park yr cynicism and celebrate the rare occasion an All Black has the courage of his convictions.

     "Perenara hasn’t been shy of speaking out on various issues throughout his professional rugby career, including advocating for LGBTQ+ rights and supporting the Black Lives Matter movement. He’s also used his platform to speak against racism and discrimination.

     In March, the halfback stood up for the Hurricanes Poua after the team used an altered haka which used the phrase “karetao o te Kāwana kakiwhero” or “puppets of this redneck Government” before their Super Rugby Aupiki season opener against the Chiefs Manawa."

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/maori-all-blacks-advisor-te-wehi-wright-calls-for-unity-after-tj-perenaras-final-haka/ZKVXXGEL3ZDBLGFQOKCPE2SVAE/

     Reply
   • Mike the Lefty 3.3

     25 November 2024 at 11:49 am

     TJ is not the only one, he is just a very recent example.

     The point is that players don't seem to be constrained to the old boomer National-voting conservative ethic anymore, plus the old-guard boomer National-voting club officials are either retired, deceased or very old now so changes much surely happen.

     Reply
     • tWig 3.3.1

       25 November 2024 at 5:36 pm

       Take a look at the skin colour of the 1970s team versus the allblacks today. Could be a big clue as to why attitudes have changed with time…

       Reply
   • bwaghorn 3.4

     25 November 2024 at 12:00 pm

     I reckon you're being unfair, he's always shown his moari freely

     Reply
   • observer 3.5

     25 November 2024 at 5:26 pm

     Helpful hint:

     It takes 10 seconds to Google and check before posting. A lot less time than it takes to post nonsense. Saves embarrassment. Try it next time.

     Just one example of many from 5 years ago (on page one of a search, with Wikipedia links to original source):

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/rugby-world-cup-2019/2019/09/rugby-world-cup-2019-all-blacks-tj-perenara-s-proud-stand-for-social-justice.html

     Perhaps you could apologise, or more importantly, take the trouble to check next time. Just 10 seconds.

     Reply
4. Subliminal 4

   25 November 2024 at 12:57 pm

   Kamal Adwan hospital is now under continual attack from Israel. Its director, Dr Hussam Abu Safia, has now been seriously wounded. He has repeatedly refused to leave his work in the hospital and considers it an honour to be struck while still attending to the dire need of the Palestinian people.

   Dr Hussam Abu Safia has already lost his son in an attack on the hospital and may now lose his own life.

   Infection is rampant with no ability to sterilise nor prescribe antibiotics, any infection quickly becomes a death sentence. Super bugs are running rampant and E. coli have been found attacking bone. This is something never before found in medical literature.

   The UN reports that 80% of registered deaths have occurred through the deliberate targeting of residential buildings.

   Well over 100,000 Palestinians have been expelled from northern Gaza in nearly two months. Fifty-one days have now passed since the Israeli army began unofficially implementing the Generals’ Plan in northern Gaza, which aims to expel or kill all of the area's remaining residents.

   https://thecradle.co/articles/kamal-adwan-hospital-director-in-worsening-condition-after-being-hit-by-israeli-quadcopter

   https://x.com/RamAbdu/status/1859477567641661917?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1859477567641661917%7Ctwgr%5E77f47f5c1bec8743b756dfee6263f535d56ce1f0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nakedcapitalism.com%2F2024%2F11%2Flinks-11-23-2024.html

   Reply
5. ianmac 5

   25 November 2024 at 1:36 pm

   Kennedy Warne spoke this morning on Nine to Noon, about how Norway/Sweden have also been giving apologies to indigenous people. In each case it was the extreme right like ACT who voted against the Bill. The wronged parties were compensated for the historical wrongs against their language for instance.

   Starts just after 6:30.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018965655/off-the-beaten-track-with-kennedy-warne

   Reply

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