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Open Mike 25/11/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 25th, 2016 - 206 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

206 comments on “Open Mike 25/11/2016 ”

  1. Andre 1

    What do you do if you have a few actual principles and a bit of moral integrity, and Trump asks you to serve in his administration?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mitt-romneys-dilemma_us_5836376be4b050dfe61879e7?section=us_politics

    You could almost feel sorry for the guy. Almost.

    • Puckish Rogue 1.1

      From a purely personal pov of course he should take it if offered, if nothing else if he does a good job then it strengthens his case if he takes another run for the presidency and if he doesn’t he can probably blame Trump for it and half the people would probably believe him

      • Andre 1.1.1

        But both those points are just about Romney advancing his future. Neither addresses his likely need to maintain his self-respect while he tries to do the job.

        • garibaldi 1.1.1.1

          Trump has been strongly advised not to trust Romney ( over on zerohedge).

          • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1.1

            And very interestingly, and very disturbingly, Kellyanne Conway has been implying over Twitter that Romney would not be a good pick.

            Tensions in the Trump transition team over this seem to be running high.

  2. Paul 2

    Neo-liberalism creates a precarious society.
    If anything goes wrong , the safety net does not exist.

    Closed businesses and evacuated buildings have left possibly thousands of workers in the lurch, following the Kaikoura earthquakes.
    Part-time workers, casuals and temps in Wellington have been left unable to get to their jobs, and without a safety net.
    Unite Union National Secretary Gerard Hehir estimated there would be tens of thousands of casual workers in Wellington alone who are now out of work.
    “Look it’s huge. A huge number of people just don’t have any job security from one week to another.
    “And when something like this happens, an earthquake or a major event, that doubly affects them because often their hours go to zero. They’re left with no income at all.”
    Hehir said the issue would affect workers in hotels, hospitality, and even retail stores.
    “In the central city particularly, there’s a lot of people working in hospitality.
    Wellington Citizens Advice Bureau manager Mary O’Regan said the centre was already dealing with many people from fast food, cafes, and even Government departments.
    “Most Government departments have quite a few people who are employed by temp agencies. And some of them are employed for quite a long time in their roles, and probably should be permanent employees.”
    She said there’s little that can be done for those people on flexible work contracts.
    “Our advice to them is to document the impact on them. It’s really up to them to negotiate with either the agency or the place where they’re employed. But there’s no guarantee that’s going to work.
    “Given the situation in Wellington, in future make sure you have a contract that covers these events. But that’s for the future.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11754532

    • Paul 2.1

      And what created this neo-liberal nightmare?

      A cadre of traitors who sold this country to corporate interests ( mainly foreign) in the neo-liberal coup d’etat from 1984 to 1993.

      David Lange, Roger Douglas, Mike Moore, Geoffrey Palmer, Richard Prebble, David Caygill, Ruth Richardson, Bill Birch, Jenny Shipley and the rest of the quislings turned New Zealand from a country with governments which cared for its people to one that is reflected

      The 4th Labour government’s acts of treason
      Floating the New Zealand dollar.
      Removing farming subsidies.
      Introducing GST (Goods and Services Tax).
      New banks were allowed.
      Reducing income and company tax.
      Removing controls on foreign exchange.
      Abolishing or reducing import tariffs.
      Corporatising many State owned enterprises such as the Post Office, Telecom and Air New Zealand to be more like private businesses. Some of these were later privatised.
      Enabling the Reserve Bank to autonomously pursue an inflation target.

      The 4th National government’s acts of treason
      The corporatisation of the health system and hospital closures
      Sale of state-owned enterprises
      The Employment Contracts Act

      • James 2.1.1

        Acts of treason ?

        Yeah – Nah.

        Just because you don’t agree with something it didn’t make it treason you know.

        They were our elected officials doing their jobs.

        • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1

          They were elected officials who let in the neoliberal Trojan Horse. They were elected officials who fucked over the very constituents who voted them in. They were elected officials who hollowed out the Labour Party into a rigid brittle shell of its old self.

          • swordfish 2.1.1.1.1

            Yep, and certainly the voters of 1984 (voters of all stripes) weren’t expecting the extreme Neo-Liberal revolution that ensued.

            The most relevant poll of voters carried out in 84 found that, on the question of attitudes to the Muldoon Government’s Economic Interventionism, “responses were notable in that despite the unpopularity of the Muldoon style of intervention (except among 1984 National voters), the principle of intervention was generally endorsed and the size of the “misdirected” category – particularly with respect to Labour and Social Credit voters – was unexpectedly high.”

            The Question was: “In your opinion, has government intervention in the New Zealand economy under National in the 1980s been ‘about right’, ‘excessive’, ‘misdirected’ or ‘too little’ ?”:

            1984………..All Voters……Lab Voters

            Excessive………….33……………39
            About Right………31……………4
            Too Little……………1…………….1
            Misdirected……….35…………..57

            Hence, only a third of all voters in 1984 and less than 40% of Labour voters thought Muldoon’s interventionist policies ‘excessive’. Significant interventionism of one sort or another was endorsed by two-thirds of all voters and more than 60% of Labour voters at the time of the 1984 Election.

            • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Plenty of Labour establishment types still secretly wonder where their hundreds of thousands of dedicated party members and union affiliate members have gone.

              But of course it can’t have anything to do with the 1980s.

        • Clump_AKA Sam 2.1.1.2

          James. What’s your position on the death penalty for government officials who share state secretes with transnational corporations ?

        • ropata 2.1.1.3

          How else do you define an act of war against your own nation and people?

          Whereby the people who elected you to defend the nation, are then betrayed and lose their jobs, their democracy, their rights, their public assets, their natural resources, and their territorial sovereignty?

          We are now a colony in thrall to the whims of transnational corporations.

      • stunned mullet 2.1.2

        Measured and rational as always Paul.

      • Cinny 2.1.3

        Paul … who will do what to change this so called neo-liberal nightmare? And what do you feel we should do to change/fix things?

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.4

        A cadre of traitors who sold this country to corporate interests ( mainly foreign) in the neo-liberal coup d’etat from 1984 to 1993 and ongoing.

        FTFY

        Floating the New Zealand dollar.

        Actually, that’s a brilliant move. They just did it the wrong way by having ‘The Market’ set the value of the dollar rather than setting it via the actual terms of trade. If we import more than we export from a country then our currency should go down against that currency.

        ‘The Market’ just sets it via interest rates which means that as our trade imbalance increases more money comes into the country for the higher returns increasing the imbalance. And it’s a cumulative imbalance.

        As of now, our currency should be far below that of China meaning that we wouldn’t be importing from China at all now as nobody could afford to.

    • save nz 2.2

      @Paul – UBI – UBI – UBI

      Does anyone else think that we should have a referendum on UBI in NZ?

      • mauī 2.2.1

        Yeah, but would it have any chance of a yes? I don’t think so.

        • save nz 2.2.1.1

          I disagree and don’t see why we can’t have a referendum on it. At the end of the day people both rich and poor now have a precariat life (apparently 3/4 of American’s have less than $1000 in the bank and I’m sure Kiwis are worse) so losing a job, having an earthquake or climate related effect, being on contract or zero hours are all reason why many Kiwis would want a safety net.

          NZ is not Switzerland – much worse run as a country, less savings and so forth. With only 25% voting Trump being able to secure his victory, now is the time for the opposition to put forward something new that would get people out voting rather than same old 20th century ideas.

          This is a beneficial and uncomplicated payment not a punishment tax like the usual efforts that don’t work for the left.

          Who the hell doesn’t want the idea of free money?

          It could be the left ‘tax cuts’.

      • Ch-ch Chiquita 2.2.2

        Yes, but there needs to be a discussion about it first and the public needs to be informed properly and not via slogans and propaganda. Does anyone else think this will not happen?

        • save nz 2.2.2.1

          The beauty of the UBI is that it is a simple idea – it can be a slogan and also discussed in depth. It could be a way for Labour to lead a discussion not framed for once by National.

          • gsays 2.2.2.1.1

            Hi save, I’m in for a ubi.
            $300 a week each funded by a ftt.

            Bring in all those (currently) untaxed $.
            Mostly from those foreign banks and rich pricks, what’s not to vote for?
            If there are concerns that it the ubi isn’t enough for some, then raise the ftt to .1%.

            I also like the idea of national not controlling the narrative.

            • save nz 2.2.2.1.1.1

              If Labour, Greens, opportunity party, Mana are all discussing a UBI funded by a robin hood tax, the Natz start to look like they are on the outer and the scrooge party just wanting more perks for the banks and multinationals…

  3. Ad 3

    Could Donald Trump shit or get off the pot already?

    He clearly had and has zero transition plan in place, and obviously no idea who wants to help out, so he’s got nothing coherent in his 100 day plan other than ban TPP that was dead anyway, and is running around the lowest political has-beens trying to get anyone on his team.

    He is reeking of having no political plan.That stuff that comes with experience.

    Mr President-elect needs to figure this out fast or he will figure out what a backlash looks like.

    • Andre 3.1

      Aw c’mon it’s all gd. Here, Seth Meyers explains it for ya.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcuvB7RtAt4

    • Incognito 3.2

      He is reeking of having no political plan.That stuff that comes with experience.

      No, you got that wrong I’m afraid.

      With experience you can make it look like you have a plan, that you know what you’re doing, while in fact you still don’t and never will.

      With experience you can appear to manage an economy towards a brighter future for all while in fact you’re watching things crumbling to pieces and dust.

      With experience you can pretend to be doing and saying (!) the right things and actively pursuing the opposite behind the scenes, willingly and knowingly.

      With experience you can fool almost all the people almost all the time – experience has shown us.

      An experienced politician is a menace to mankind.

    • Colonial Viper 3.3

      He clearly had and has zero transition plan in place, and obviously no idea who wants to help out

      Trump’s transition is currently weeks ahead of Barack Obama’s. After a gruelling campaign and election, I think he’s taking his first full day off transition activities today.

      The Obama transition didn’t even start naming Cabinet picks until days before Christmas day.

      • lprent 3.3.1

        It looks rather rushed and the anointed cabinet lack both cohesiveness as a cabinet and appear to be short of experience in the cabinet roles to my eye. To be precise, the ones who have some experience look like they lack the experience of running large government departments. In particular, someone like Flynn looks like complete dickhead with a proven track record of being sloppy at managing staff.

        I think that Trump and his advisers have been picking them for the reporters and an eye on the headlines rather than the actual work.

        Obama was putting in place people with investigated backgrounds capable of standing up the close scrutiny and many of the appointments were known before the election to the public. It doesn’t appear that Trump and his team have done the same diligence, so what we are seeing is a hopeless mishmash of the barely competent.

        Have you been sucking on the RT again?

          • Ad 3.3.1.1.1

            Far be it from me to critique the HuffPost Bubble (and I do personally inhale there), but they need to get the point:

            His job is to deliver the policies that people voted for.
            To do that he needs the team that will do that.
            He’s doing his shoulder taps ‘live before a studio audience’, which makes for great story and crap momentum.
            He needs to show he can do the deals, quick.

            He’s beginning to less like ‘draining the swamp’ and a whole lot more like just another alligator among a great pack of them.

            • Andre 3.3.1.1.1.1

              “His job is to deliver the policies that people voted for.”

              But what are those policies? It was hard enough to figure out what they might be even before we started getting told to “take him seriously, but not literally”.

              I dunno, he’s been pretty good at conning people so far. Maybe he’ll be able to con people into thinking whatever steaming pile he produces is what they really did vote for.

              • Colonial Viper

                Trump’s campaign team somehow even managed to con the superior intellects and highly educated group of Clinton Preferrers that Hillary would win.

                Basically, if you don’t know what policies Trump campaigned on, you haven’t been paying attention.

                Making NATO pay its way, dumping bad trade deals like the TPP, building the wall, ending regime change foreign interventions, massive infrastructure spending, law and order, deporting criminal illegals, charter schools, huge military spending, improving the economic and educational situation in inner cities, anti jihadist co-operation with Russia, a protectionist approach to trade, containing Iran, protecting social security and medicare, putting conservative constitutionalist judges on the Supreme Court, etc.

                Also Trump copy pasted wholesale a whole lot of policy material from the Heritage Foundation. A fav establishment of all lefties.

                • He campaigned on policy and is now backtracking on many of them and he ain’t even in yet. A great com.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    The fact that The Donald is softening his policy stances, backtracking on shit and heading to the middle ground should make you Clinton Preferrers happy.

                    But apparently it doesn’t.

                    TL/DR he’s going to be a serious politician. Clinton Preferrers should have taken him as such.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.2

          When the systems broken then putting in place people who will maintain the system isn’t what you want to do.

          Of course, Trump isn’t there to change the system to make it better for anybody but himself and that probably applies to those he’s appointing which means that the system he puts in place will be even more broken than the one already there.

        • Clump_AKA Sam 3.3.1.3

          Dont listen to IPrents BS. Steve Bannon has huge intellect, understands Americas problems & is motivated for change: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LNwf1B0qNMs

          • rhinocrates 3.3.1.3.1

            If you define America’s problems as “too many Jews” (or women, of POC…), yes. Otherwise…

            http://www.jta.org/2016/11/14/news-opinion/politics/trumps-chief-strategist-5-things-jews-need-to-know-about-stephen-bannon

            • Clump_AKA Sam 3.3.1.3.1.1

              Why did you mention Jews? Not once during the campaign did Jews come up, I could be wrong, am happy to be corrected. It’s my recollection that Mexicans and Muslims featured heavily in trumps rhetoric.

              Besides that I take anything the Jewish lobby says with huge amounts of salt. Mainly because the Jewish state kill woman and children.

              Greed, was around during the American Revolution, greed was around during WW2, greed was around in 2008, and greed is a feature in Trumps career. Denying greed exists is like denying gravity exists. All you are really saying is, it’s kinda like blaming air crashes on gravity.

              • rhinocrates

                Bannon and Breitbart are notoriously antisemitic – Breitbart is the public mouthpiece of the ‘alt right’ and is a channel for explicit NeoNazism in America and your claim to ignorance of its prominence in the campaign is difficult to credit.

                Trump spent plenty of time dog-whistling, especially in his later adds, using common NeoNazi code language. Eric Trump was much more explicit in appealing to the ‘alt right’.

                Besides that I take anything the Jewish lobby says with huge amounts of salt. Mainly because the Jewish state kill woman and children.

                No thanks for lumping in the policies of Israel as representative of Jews, sorry, the “Jewish lobby” overall. Jews are not the Borg or a vast unified collective. Most in America would call themselves liberal and are appalled by Netanyahu’s barbarity. You demonstrate your prejudice.

                Your last paragraph is nonsensical. I wasn’t denying greed exists, I was pointing out that you’re shilling for an antisemite misogynist racist who has been responsible for ‘normalising’ extreme NeoNazi rhetoric.

                I’ll assume that you’re ignorant – that would be generous.

                • Clump_AKA Sam

                  You’re crazy

                  • rhinocrates

                    Care to elaborate?

                    • Clump_AKA Sam

                      No. I can’t take you seriously. If you want to continue your ramblings. Throw me a private message. And I’ll get back to you right away

                    • rhinocrates

                      If you want to comin Ture your ramblings.

                      Please use English.

                      Also, I have no desire to use private messaging with someone who shills for fascism. You should have the courage to follow up your public statements in public.

                      Look at the links to the material on Spencer, whom Shannon so deeply admires and promotes. Pay attention to the “Heil Victory, Heil Trump” and the salutes. If you want to tell me what you think of them, you can tell everyone.

                    • Clump_AKA Sam

                      Americans themselves have bigger issues at play. The figurative Eliot ness is coming for them, millions of Americans are with out proper legal representation or financial means. Have you considered that or are you waiting for the right set of comments.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Bannon and Breitbart are notoriously antisemitic

                  Nah, just more anti-Trump noise from the shell shocked liberal media.

                  Instead, why don’t you listen to the Israeli ambassador to the USA:

                  The Israeli ambassador to the United States on Thursday praised President-elect Donald Trump as a “true friend of Israel” and said that Israel looks forward to working with the administration — extending a specific mention to incoming top White House adviser Steve Bannon.

                  http://www.politico.com/blogs/donald-trump-administration/2016/11/ron-dermer-israeli-ambassador-praises-trump-bannon-231578

                • Colonial Viper

                  People tired of the neo-McCarthy smear by association tactics that the Clinton camp has been running in the media for months, and is still running, rhinocrates.

                  That’s one big reason why she lost.

        • alwyn 3.3.1.4

          “many of the appointments were known before the election to the public”

          You may be correct with this statement but I cannot think of any of the Cabinet Secretaries in Obama’s first cabinet whose proposed nomination was announced prior to the 2008 election.
          Can you provide a link to back-up this claim? I can’t find anything using Google.

  4. In August Andrew Little dissed Nick Leggett off as a right winger.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/labour-mps-forbidden-from-associating-with-right-ring-wellington-mayoral-candidate/

    Last month Little wound that back, saying Leggett would be “welcome back in the Labour fold “He is a talented guy and he has got a big future ahead of him. But he has got to work with people who can organise for his success.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11725623

    On Tuesday Leggett said “I want to live in a country that’s open, its borders are open, it’s open to migrants, it’s open to trade. Unfortunately Labour seems to be going in the opposite direction to that, and I think it’s very sad.”

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/nick-leggett-labour-has-changed-and-im-not-going-back/

    Today Newshub repoirts “Rumours are circulating that former Porirua mayor and ex-Labour stalwart Nick Leggett could be standing in the Mana electorate at next year’s election for the National Party.”

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/from-labour-to-national-is-nick-leggett-jumping-ship-2016112423

    Labour needs to be rebuilding, but dissing people off is going to make that difficult.

    • James 4.1

      Excellent – I’m sure national will be happy to have him.

      Looks like he found people who can organise for his success.

    • The Chairman 4.2

      If Leggett jumps ship to National doesn’t it highlight he was never really a Labour man?

      Thus, no loss.

      • Pete George 4.2.1

        Not at all. Labour have changed. National have changed. Allegiances change. Political support need not be a lifelong commitment.

        Voting pattern changes show that many people who have previously supported Labour switched to supporting National.

        I’ve seen a lot of people commenting here saying that they used to support Labour but don’t now, and won’t until they change again. And abuse directed at ex-Labour voters is not going to help switch them back.

        • The Chairman 4.2.1.1

          I don’t believe Leggett has changed. He has always been a bit of a centrist.

          The suggestion he may jump ship to National merely reaffirms my belief.

          Labour require people who are committed to the cause. Clearly, Leggett isn’t.

          Thus, no loss.

          • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.1.1

            Labour require people who are committed to the cause.

            Uh, what “cause” might that be, exactly? Have you seen much evidence of this so-called “cause” in action over the last few years/decades?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.2.1.1.1.1

              You’re a Labour Party member aren’t you.

              • Colonial Viper

                Yet another cheap personal attack OAB? Figures.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  I can’t help it if your personal circumstances undermine your rhetoric.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Distracting from the failure of NZ Labour to have a “cause”.

                    • he does have a good point though – seat warmers always moan when they have to leave their comfort.

                      Labour is what labour is and it is made up of members and supporters – about time some of them took responsibility instead of always blaming the parliamentary team. For Labour members and supporters the question isn’t, “What did Labour do?” it is, “What did I do?” but those who have become bitter can never see that distinction – too much responsibility needed, imo they prefer to ride the coat-tails of those who actually do it and take responsibility for it – but some aren’t mature enough to even see that.

                      For a personal example, as a Mana Movement member and supporter I don’t berate Mana for what happened at the last election, I say,”what did I do or not do to contribute to that situation and what can I improve to make it more in alignment with my ethos and values.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The people I know who attended your last conference came back quite energised about the cause. I suppose you had to be there.

                      It’s my impression that so far as you’re concerned, what Labour “lacks” is a list place for you.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What a joyous work life that would be, having to hang out with backstabbing low energy free market faithful careerist Labour MPs for 60 hours a week.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Especially considering that you’re a better fit for the National Party Front.

            • The Chairman 4.2.1.1.1.2

              The party’s core principles.

              But yes, I agree, Labour seldom lives up to them. Hence, their ailing support.

              Leggett is far from the only one in Labour that needs to go.

          • Jenny Kirk 4.2.1.1.2

            Leggett a centrist, or rightwing ? I’d say rightwing, The Chairman – so the National Party is really his home ground.

          • Wayne 4.2.1.1.3

            Well, at least you accept that National is home to many centrists, and not just the usual fascists, extreme right wingers, sociopaths, RWNJ etc, that seem to be the usual characterisation of National supporters and activists by many on this site.

            Though a moments reflection should indicate that a party that was made up of such people would not get enough votes to form a govt. Unless of course you think a large number of voters also fall into this category or are simply dupes.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.2.1.1.3.1

              Neuroscience has the answer. There may be a spectrum of false beliefs between Judith Collins and Bill English, and so what?

            • The Chairman 4.2.1.1.3.2

              National is good at putting on a soft public front.

            • framu 4.2.1.1.3.3

              aww jees wayne – youve never looked at a maccas burger and compared it to the pics on the menu?

            • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1.3.4

              I’m pretty sure that many in National are centrists. Same as I’m pretty sure that most of them aren’t psychopaths.

              That makes no difference to the fact that National is actually a hard right-wing, psychopathic party due to it’s leadership and the fact that all those centrists are authoritarian followers that simply do as they’re told rather than holding their leadership to any sort of ethical standards.

        • james 4.2.1.2

          Regardless – the man on the street is just going to see Ex Labour person moving to National saying the reasons are that Labours bad because they are anti immigration, anti migrants and anti free trade.

          So – its not going to look good for Labour in the news.

          I doubt many call be calling him a traitor to the cause or a neo-lib – because 99% of people dont care about that.

          As for him never being a “labour man” – well labour obviously thought so. Its just that labour is getting less and less popular with people – citation- election results.

      • Sanctuary 4.2.2

        Leggett sounds like JAFB – Just Another Fucking Blairite. Thus, no loss.

        • swordfish 4.2.2.1

          Yep, absolutely a Blairite. Along with his good chum, Phil Quin, Leggett’s a core member of the extra-Parliamentary wing of the old ABC brigade, very close to Shearer, Goff and Shane Jones, has written for the on-line presence of the lavishly-funded Blairite ginger group, Progress, and so on. Utterly opposed to anything resembling true Social Democracy.

          The Tories will love him.

          • Pete George 4.2.2.1.1

            There’s no mention of England.

            Just as well Labour can afford to give ex members and voters a kick up the bum as they slam the door on them.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.2.2.1.1.1

              Your bile is showing, regurgitated unoriginal spin-boy.

              (For Bill’s benefit) – the right wing line that anyone who leaves the Labour Party to join National must be right and it’s all Labour’s fault for not listening to them, wasn’t dreamt up by this loser from Dunedin, he’s just astroturfing again. Do you need me to spell it out more clearly?

              • Not many of those deserting Labour going to the Greens. Probably not helped by so much repeat Green supporter dirty politics.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  I hacked your emails, but fell asleep every time I tried to read them, so I’m marketing them on Ebay as a cure for insomnia. Sales are good, mostly from satisfied customer referrals.

                  I’m not sure where you get your precise knowledge of party-swapping statistics. Did you pull it out of your nose or your armpit?

                  Weka has already comprehensively rebutted your unoriginal regurgitation of right wing attack lines about DP. So I don’t have to.

                • lprent

                  Huh? What green dirty politics. I kept track on the fuckwits in nz. I haven’t heard if any. Perhaps you are imagining it?

    • millsy 4.3

      If you want to join a political party, you have to have some sort of commitment to it principles, and Leggett didn’t.

      Also, I want to live in a country that where the government puts it’s own people first. Not those from overseas.

      • james 4.3.1

        What if its principles change – do you follow it blindly?

        • reason 4.3.1.1

          There is a global war war taking place in the world economic system …….. Its driven by greed and corruption ……… and built by deeply dishonest, criminally inclined and the very worst among people involved as Politicians, Bankers, Lawyers and Accountants.

          Corporate media is involved and profits from this ‘legalised looting’ …….mainstream reporting has been muted, poorly informed and often non-existent ……. our so called NZ news media are solely to blame for citizens being confused as to why John Key received special mention from the panama money laundering and tax haven whistleblower.

          Keys and nationals grubby fingerprints in turning us into a tax haven/secrecy jurisdiction were all over Hansard, “Stuff interviews”, Nicky Hagers reporting on nationals long tax haven connections , wine box etc etc etc…..

          This stealing by the most powerful and richest amongst us involves more than just Billionaires and corporations being greedy …………….. It is behind nearly every ill inflicting modern humanity and the earth …..Its driving climate change, It creates mass poverty and kills children , it spreads and grows pollution, war, corruption and every other sickness or abuse that the sociopaths and criminalized financial professions who build and run the off-shore wealth extraction networks have poisoned societies with.

          John Key has a long career and made a lot of money helping American corporations and companies scam their way out of paying tax when Ireland set up as a tax haven centre back in the 1980’s when white collar criminality was rampantly growing ….. the virus of corruption spread through there corporate world and the bent bankers, accountants and Lawyers set the new scam standards.

          Recently with Cameron PM in Britain , Harper in Canada Turnball in aussie and our own bent key we have had a quadrant of arrogant yet sneaky evil…. they have been building. Expanding and aiding the “offshore/ secrecy jurisdiction /tax haven networks ……….. on the quiet.

          In the U.s.a Obama talked a good game against the wholesale fraud ….because politically the richest stealing from everyone is indefensible but he did nothing …. and he played golf with our bailout boy PM …..

          As our ‘normal’ media does not educate us about this vicious wealth extraction and criminal enabling network through which half the worlds money flows …..I’ll be posting up information and links on its relevance to certain subjects ………. and probably john key 😉

          http://ctj.org/pdf/offshoreshell2015.pdf

          http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2015/10/offshore_shell_games_2015.php#.WDd9hMno1_k

      • Draco T Bastard 4.3.2

        If you want to join a political party, you have to have some sort of commitment to it principles, and Leggett didn’t.

        Actually, you don’t. No political party tests a members principles against its own and then says yay or nay. A party may remove you later if they find out that you blatantly don’t support their stated principles.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.4

      More stale second-hand astroturf. (For Bill’s benefit) This particular bit of fake grass is the long-running drivel that says Labour has to become the National Party, a perennial theme that right wing trolls love to return to from time to time.

      It’s a pity this boring derivative crap is welcome here.

    • Cinny 4.5

      Rumours… rumours via newshub.. mhmm.. raises an eyebrow. Entertainment attempting to be disguised as news?

    • Puckish Rogue 4.6

      Leggett didn’t leave Labour, Labour left Leggett 🙂

      • Muttonbird 4.6.1

        I’ve heard this song before…

        I’ve always voted Labour,
        My father voted Labour,
        My father’s father voted Labour,
        I grew up in a Labour household,
        But, Cunliffe.

    • inspider 4.7

      I was picking that he would do a deal with Peter dunne and take over Ohariu with a nod and a wink from national

    • One Two 4.8

      Leggett said “I want to live in a country that’s open, its borders are open, it’s open to migrants, it’s open to trade

      Politics attracts the narrowest of ‘thinkers’

      The above statement barely qualifies as thinking…in fact given it was an interview that makes it prepared sloganerring…

      Given as notes to repeat in the interview….so no thinking at all

      Where do they manufacture these ‘people’

    • DoublePlusGood 4.9

      Leggett has for ages been clearly and obviously a right wing politician working for property developers. His logical party is National, and the sooner he buggers off to them the better.
      I look forward to him losing Mana horribly.

  5. Morrissey 5

    If there were any sense of decency and morality in the political system, this guy would be U.S. President in 2020.

    As the United States observes its great national holiday, let’s give thanks that there are Americans like Edward Snowden….

    “Segregation, slavery, genocides, these have all been perpetuated under frameworks that said they were lawful, as long as you abided by the regulations that were sort of managing those activities.

    “A lawful abuse of surveillance could also be more difficult to spot, not something that is as obvious. Or how about a restriction on who and how you can love someone, that’s enforced by violence. Or something as simple as an intentional tax loophole. Or discrimination. Lawful abuse.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP-qHI4ioRQ

    And here’s the transcript of the talk….

    http://www.actvism.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/160724_Edward_Snowden_Transcript.pdf

    • Colonial Viper 5.1

      Welcome back Morrissey

      • Morrissey 5.1.1

        Thanks very much, Viper. I was banned for a week for posting something which was more of a boast about my own prescience than it was to do with the U.S. election.

        I guess it’s safe to repost it now, so here goes….

        Three years ago this writer, i.e., moi, predicted
        Donald Trump would become U.S. president.

        In late December 2013, after witnessing the appalling spectacle of Barack Obama’s antics at Nelson Mandela’s funeral, I was moved to speculate on who would speak at Hopey-Changey’s own funeral in the year 2050….

        So, the question has to be asked: is there anyone in the entire world who would be shameless enough to deliver a mealy-mouthed, utterly insincere eulogy for the late President Obama, just as President Obama delivered a mealy-mouthed, utterly insincere eulogy for the late Nelson Mandela.

        Well, it so happens that there is someone who is just perfect for the job of leading the show of mourning for Barack Obama in the tradition, laid down by Obama himself, of eulogizing a person one would have persecuted and imprisoned if one had had the power to do so.

        He is getting long in the tooth: in 2050 he will be 104 years old. But, thanks to the miracle of daily monkey gland injections, the drinking of gallons of Amrit Ras and the yearly blood sacrifice of a mewling sycophant on the world’s longest-running TV series The Apprentice, this world leader, and former president (2020-4), is still going strong.

        Yes, step forward LORD DONALD TRUMP (May God Bless His Holy Name)…..

        Ex-President Lord Trump’s Eulogy for Barack Obama
        December 11, 2050

        To Michelle and the Obama family; to President Bieber and members of the government; to heads of state and government, past and present; distinguished guests – it is a singular honor to be with you today, to celebrate a life unlike any other. To the people of Kenya – people of every race and walk of life – the world thanks you for sharing Barack Obama with us….

        Read more….

        Open mike 31/12/2013

    • millsy 5.2

      You do know that Snowden is a affiliated to the Libertarian Party and gave money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign in 2008 don’t you?

    • save nz 5.3

      +1 Morrissey, Snowdon’s smart, white, male, knows where Aleppo is, able to collaborate with other world leaders, computer savvy, been persecuted, is a world wide name and is a former defence forces contractor – they should be cuing up for Snowdon as President!

      Oh, he’s got too much integrity…

  6. DH 6

    It’s disappointing to see Tim Hazeldine sidling across to the dark side….

    “Tim Hazledine: Panicky housing policies may be missing target”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11754601

    His references are a bit vague but from what I can make out he’s using the income data from 100% of households to calculate the (real) housing inflation of only 31% of households. When calculating the rental index I’d think it obvious one should only use the incomes of renters as a reference or at least make note of the caveat.

    He’s also missed the point that households can have multiple tenants while a household can have only one owner-occupier. The ratio of renters must obviously be far higher than the 31% he’s quoting.

    Another point is that rising rents lead to crowded housing and crowded houses will increase the average household income which would in turn create misleading statistics on relative housing costs.

    IMO a graphic reminder of the old saying about lies, damned lies, etc…

    • Siobhan 6.1

      “Many stand to inherit, and need to show a little patience – just give us over-entitled baby-boomers a few more dignified years to shuffle off this mortal coil.”…that particular argument gets my goat.
      Baby boomers are expected to (generally) live longer and healthier lives than their parents. What good is it, as a Gen Xer to inherit money for your first house when you’re only 10 years off retirement yourself?? I know of many BB’s who were helped into their first home by their folks, but will not pass on the favour as they expect to enjoy active and secure life styles and endless kitchen renovations.

      But far more importantly “…so long as families are able to live in warm, dry, sanitary accommodation, with just about enough space, what does it matter who is paying the mortgage?”..the man clearly has no idea about the realities -financial, emotional, physical- of renting your whole life.

      Intellectuals Really Are the Shoeshine Boys of the Ruling Elite .

      • DH 6.1.1

        “Intellectuals Really Are the Shoeshine Boys of the Ruling Elite .’

        IIRC Hazeldine used to be quite the socialist, was one of the few academics who stood up for the poor with any kind of sincerity. Leopard seems to have changed its spots there though.

      • Ad 6.1.2

        Those damnable things you call ‘intellectuals’ are the remaining people in society who read. I’m sure you can find a little space in your bookshop-loving heart for them.

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.2.1

          How many true intellectuals are around these days? Educated people who are willing to stick it to the establishment whenever the establishment deserves it? (Which is every day).

          As opposed to the Intellectual Yet Idiot class who owe their comfortable middle classness on justifying, perpetuating and protecting the establishment.

          Hedges describes this very well in his book Death of the Liberal Class.

  7. The Chairman 7

    Are the negotiations between the Māori Party and Mana a consequence of Labour’s treatment of the two?

    And will this result in biting Labour in the ass?

    • james 7.1

      That would be hilarious !!!

    • b waghorn 7.2

      Hone trusting a maori party that’s being run by tuku morgan would be dumber than him teaming up with dot com

      • james 7.2.1

        I have to disagree with that – Kim Dotcom was the worst mistake anyone could make.

        • reason 7.2.1.1

          But national are dirty politics sweetness… https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/doing-the-business-with-john-key-heres-how-part-rua/

          5 October 2009: Crafar Farms placed into receivership, owing $216 million to creditors.

          2 December 2009: KIWI DAIRY CORPORATION LIMITED registered. (Then changes to ORAVIE LIMITED, 20 December 2010. Then changes to ORAVIDA LTD, 20 January 2011. Then changes to ORAVIDA NZ LIMITED, 13 May 2011. ) Shareholders: Jing Huang, Julia Jiyan Xu, and Deyi Shi. (Source)

          11 June 2010: National Party receives $50,000.00 donation from Susan Chou. (Source)

          30 July 2010: National Party receives $150,000 donation from Susan Chou. (Source)

          18 November 2010: MILK NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION LIMITED* registered. Directors: Terry Lee and Jiang Zhaobai. (Source)

          22 December 2010: Government blocks bid by Natural Dairy to buy the 16 Crafar farms on ‘good character’ grounds.

          27 January 2011: KordaMentha accepts offer from Shanghai Pengxin International Group Ltd to buy Crafar Farms.

          31 May 2011: National Party receives $100,000 donation from Susan Chou. (Source)

          22 July 2011: ORAVIDA LTD registered. Shareholders: Jing Huang, Julia Jiyan Xu, and Deyi Shi. (Source)

          27 July 2011: ORAVIDA PROPERTY LTD changes name to KIWI DAIRY INDUSTRY LTD. Shareholder: Deyi Shi (Source)

          13 April 2011: Shanghai Pengxin lodges application with the Overseas Investment Office (OIO) to buy the Crafar farms.

          26 September 2011: Crafar farms receiver KordaMentha rejects a conditional NZ$171.5 million offer for 16 central North Island dairy farms from a group led by controversial former merchant banker Michael Fay.

          22 November 2011: National Party receives $50,0000 donation from Citi Financial Group. Shareholders: Yan Yang and Qiang Wei. (Source) (Source)

          22 November 2011: National Party receives $1,600 from Oravida NZ. (Source) (Source)

          26 November 2011: NZ General Election

          30 November 2011: National Party receives further $55,000 donation from Oravida NZ. (Source) (Source)

          27 January 2012: Government ministers approve Shanghai Pengxin’s application to purchase 16 Crafar farms.

          15 February 2012: High Court delays sale of Crafar farms to Shanghai Pengxin.

          20 April 2012: Government ministers , Land Information Minister Maurice Williamson and Associate Finance Minister Jonathan Coleman approve the Overseas’ Investment Office’s (OIO) new recommendation to allow the sale of the 16 Crafar farms to Shanghai Pengxin.

          * “Milk New Zealand Holding Limited” is the official applicant and purchaser of the 16 Crafar farms. It is supposedly a subsidiary of Shanghai Pengxin

        • save nz 7.2.1.2

          @ James – Hone’s tie up with Dotcom made him a household name outside being a Maori MP. Losing his seat after the dirty politics gave Hone a lot of sympathy with the public. And I think if Hone runs again he will regain his seat – the public is turning more towards those who are not mainstream.

          • james 7.2.1.2.1

            Yeah – but not to people like Hone.

            edit – and being a household name can be a good and a bad thing.

            ie – Fred and Rosemary West are household names – dosnt mean that people like them.

            Hones popularity is a very small number of people and hardly likely to ever increase outside of this.

            • save nz 7.2.1.2.1.1

              I don’t think your right James. The worst thing Hone could do is to go with the Maori party, have people abuse him for selling out and then push the dying Maori party through next election and the Maori party knife him in the back and suck up to whoever in power gives them the most bribes aka the Natz.

              • james

                We will just have to agree to disagree – but thanks for doing so politely.

                But yep – I see him ending up on the Nats side of the fence as well – which is good for him and National.

      • save nz 7.2.2

        +1 b waghorn

  8. Andre 8

    An interesting suggestion for how Obama could fill some of the free time he’s got coming up.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/11/23/barack_obama_could_run_for_congress_become_speaker_of_the_house.html

  9. Muttonbird 9

    Big data.

    This is the road farmer, failure, and corrupt politician Bill English wants to take us down…

    http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/weapons-of-math-destruction-the-problem-with-algorithms

  10. Interesting analysis

    “President Donald Trump is set to give America’s richest 1% an average annual tax cut of $214,000 when he takes office, while more than eight million families with children are expected to suffer financially under his proposed tax plan.

    On the eve of the election, Trump promised to “massively cut taxes for the middle class, the forgotten people, the forgotten men and women of this country, who built our country”. But independent expert analyses of Trump’s tax plan show that America’s millionaire and billionaire class will win big at the expense of struggling low- and middle-income people, who turned out in large numbers to help the real estate billionaire win the election.

    Experts warn that Trump’s tax plan will exacerbate America’s already chronic income inequality and herald in a “new era of dynastic wealth”.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/23/trump-tax-plan-cuts-wealthy-low-income-inequality?CMP=share_btn_fb

    I always thought his plan was a folly designed to help him and his mates and I so wished I was wrong, but alas…

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      Many of the policies on his current website are straight out of the Heritage Foundation portfolio. There will be plenty of changes to them over the next year.

      • marty mars 10.1.1

        back downs and turn arounds you mean – yeah I am not surprised.

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1

          And there are going to be far more to come. He’s going for the centre ground and he’s taking the knees out of the Democratic Party in the process.

          It seems like Trump is going to be far more middle of the road, than the New Hitler liberal lefties have been crying about.

      • marty mars 10.1.2

        he is making all his supporters look like chumps

        “The newspaper was one of Trump’s prime targets for ridicule and attack during his campaign rallies.

        Trump then: “No media is more corrupt than the failing New York Times.”

        Trump now: “I will say, The Times is, it’s a great, great American jewel. A world jewel.””

        http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/23/politics/donald-trump-changes-since-election/index.html

        Can. Not. Be. Trusted.

        where is vto haven’t seen a comment from him for a while

        • Bill 10.1.2.1

          Pretty obvious that Trump Can. Not. Be. Trusted.

          And the NYT also Can. Not. Be. Trusted.

          How long did that take them (both parties) to build bridges where they could meet and indulge in mutual back slapping? A few days? A week?

          This piece on their recent ‘on the record’ meeting kind of lays out some disturbing stuff quite nicely. Trump’s now ‘open minded’ duntya know? And the NYT? Well, back on board just as every other ‘news’ outlet is or will be.

          https://thinkprogress.org/trump-fools-the-new-york-times-on-climate-change-180323fa5980#.kxew80qlh

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.2.1.1

            You can trust him to do his best on bringing jobs back, securing the southern border, trashing the TPP, building up the US military machine, making massive infrastructure investments and bringing major change to run down inner city neighbourhoods.

            You can also trust him not to hold grudges if he sees an advantage in not doing so.

            Which seems to always surprise the hell out of Clinton Preferrers who insist on continuing to paint him as a vindictive villain and thus not understanding him at all.

          • marty mars 10.1.2.1.2

            My point with the article and comment was about what trump said and how he blatently changed his view. This shows a lot about the guy, none of it good imo. It wasn’t really about the merits of the nyts.

    • Anne 10.2

      But independent expert analyses of Trump’s tax plan show that America’s millionaire and billionaire class will win big at the expense of struggling low- and middle-income people, who turned out in large numbers to help the real estate billionaire win the election.

      As the saying goes… you get the government you deserve. No sympathy from me.

  11. ianmac 11

    To Rosemary McDonald after mentioning the effort National is going to, to avoid payments to Carers of the Disabled , Andrew Geddis has a column pointing to: “The Nation this weekend is telling the story of family carers of disabled adult relatives and the pretty shabby way they’ve been treated over the years.”
    http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/a-little-something-for-the-weekend
    TV3 at 9:30am this Saturday, repeat at 10:00am on Sunday.

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.1

      Hah! This is a genuine expression of delight…any hint of my usual sarcasm is sincerely unintended.

      ianmac…that answers the question my ‘networks’ were asking yesterday…’why now?’ Andrew has been a staunch supporter on this issue. Also, from the Pundit team, is Brian Easton who did a cost analysis for paying family carers back when the case went to the Human Rights Review Tribunal in 2008. Even though he was starved for data (by the Mystery of Health) his costing was a million times closer to accuracy than the Miserly of Health’s $17-590 million. Better data is available now…although I will never trust Misery of Health sources…and the ridiculously low uptake of the shitty Funded Family Care scheme supports the point of view that there were NEVER tens of thousands of disabled people with high and very high care needs who were being totally supported 24/7 by unpaid family carers.

      And to try and present this issue in the narrative of this site….

      NZ cut its neoliberalism teeth on disability support services. (Labour did it too!) When the Miserly of Health was given the cripples to look after, on the back of the Public Health and Disability Act back in 2000 (Annette King?), they almost immediately contracted the whole shit and shebang out to various non profits and profit making organisations.

      These businesses have done VERY well out of these contracts and are almost NEVER held to account when disabled people are neglected, even to the point of death.

      Many of these Contracted Providers where paying resident family members as carers. Even against the Misery’s policy. I was offered such payment from a Contracted Provider back in 2002…I was offered $17 per hour to care for my partner…way above the minimum wage at the time, but still allowing the CP to make a profit from the funding from the Mystery of Health.

      I have a suspicion that many of these CP would not have done so well had they not have been paying family carers through these backdoor payments.

      NO…I did not take up the offer…dodgy deals not our style…but when we spoke of this to Ruth Dyson back in early 2013…she asked why we didn’t take up one of these backdoor deals. “It was only a policy, not the law.” she said. (She looked at us if we were fuckwits for not doing this dodgy deal.) She had no answer when we asked why on earth Labour did not sort this shit out before it went to the HRRT in 2008. No answer.

      Thanks ianmac for putting this up.

      AND…I’m told that Sunday on TV1 is also going to feature this issue.

      Looks like I’m going to have to commandeer a telly…

      • Cinny 11.1.1

        You can watch on line Rosemary when it streams 9.30am saturday if you prefer. Here’s the link.
        http://www.newshub.co.nz/Video/NewshubLiveStream

        Will def be watching too, a friend works in that sector, I’m so hearing what you are saying. Thanks IanMac for the info

        • Rosemary McDonald 11.1.1.1

          When we are not traveling, we are ‘home’, out in the country west of Hamilton.

          Because we are more than 5 kms from the nearest exchange (or whatever its called) our broadband can be slow and unstable. We get a lot of buffering (if that’s the correct terminology) when trying to view program live. We’ve tried to watch a couple of livestreamed events…very frustrating.

      • Sacha 11.1.2

        Great news. But the transfer of disability support from Social Welfare to Health happened as part of Ruthless Richardson’s economic reign of terror in the early 90s.

        • Rosemary McDonald 11.1.2.1

          “But the transfer of disability support from Social Welfare to Health happened as part of Ruthless Richardson’s economic reign of terror in the early 90s.”

          Didn’t the PHDAct formalise that? During Ruth’s rule, we have the CHEs and HFAs and other alphabeticised devolutions….muddied the waters a little bit.

          The Hill case in 2000 was against IHC and the RHA. Same issue after PHDAct was against MOH.

          As an aside Sacha, I’ve been trying to find the founding document/s for the NASCs. Any idea where I might source these? The recent Service Specs for all the Providers (including the NASCs) are up on the Mystery’s website…but these are fairly recent (post 2000).

          For my own interest, I’m trying to find the point at which the rot set in, and I suspect this was in the early 90s.

          • Sacha 11.1.2.1.1

            Can’t recall which law/s governed the changeover but yes it was to the old RHAs which by design were not able to directly provide services, only to fund them via contracted providers.

            When Labour changed the structure to DHBs and MoH, those local rationing/funding functions got transferred to NASCs. The underlying libertarianism won out despite the change of govt.

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.2

      For those who need sound and vision to capture your interest…

      On Saturday, our reporter Mike Wesley-Smith takes an in-depth look at the plight of family carers. Are they being paid enough? And is the process fair? Tune in at 9.30am on Saturday.

      Posted by Newshub Nation on Wednesday, 23 November 2016

      Reporter to Sam Lotu Iiga….”how long does it take you to go to the toilet?”

  12. Puckish Rogue 13

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11754816

    Interesting ramifications for the next election

    • ianmac 13.1

      And “Erica Stanford will be contesting the safe National seat being vacated by replace Murray McCully in East Coast Bays in the 2017 general election.”
      A safe seat so Erica will be tossing her hair at Mr Key next year.
      Note that McCully will resign from Parliament when his stint as Foreign Minister ends- soon?
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11754852

      • Macro 13.1.1

        Yep! After the last sheepgate debacle it’s clear that he has been informed that his presence is no longer required.

    • Muttonbird 13.2

      Hone working in a John Key government?

      Yeah, right.

      • The Chairman 13.2.1

        Well, it seems Labour don’t want to work with him.

        • Muttonbird 13.2.1.1

          According to who – the Maori king? He who has the National Party aligned Maori Party president’s hand shoved up his arse to do his talking for him.

          It would be interesting to know what monies flow from the coffers of the National Party to the Maori elite of the Maori Party and then on to Mr Tuheitia himself…

          • The Chairman 13.2.1.1.1

            According to the way Labour has treated him (Hone).

            And Little was clear, Labour don’t see the Māori Party as a party willing to change the Government, hence ruled them out at this stage.

            • Muttonbird 13.2.1.1.1.1

              You’d prefer Labour told Kelvin Davis to stand down in TTT and gift Hone the seat in 2014?

              Labour aren’t in the business of doing that.

              • save nz

                I think Hone can win the seat back on his own. Who can rely on the Maori party?? Nobody especially the .1% elite Maori who profit from the relationship.

              • The Chairman

                Willow Jean ring any bells.

                Labour were more willing to accommodate Peters than they were Hone.

                Kelvin Davis could have been placed high on the list.

                • Muttonbird

                  Eh? Willow Jean Prime didn’t stand down in the Northland by-election.

                  • The Chairman

                    I didn’t say she stood-down.

                    But Labour made accommodations, signaling to her supporters to back Peters.

                    They could have done the same for Hone was the point I was making.

                • Muttonbird

                  Also, Kelvin Davis has done an immense amount of work for New Zealand inmates both here and overseas. The Australian government is under immense pressure to change its detention policy and close centres such as Christmas Island in no small part because of the work done by Kelvin Davis.

                  Kelvin Davis got Sam Lotu Iiga fired from his portfolio, and is no doubt going to do the same with Judith Collins.

                  And you want him to have stepped aside and let Hone win? You would prefer that Davis was emasculated by Labour, with no mandate to force such change?

                  I ask you, what would Hone Harawira have achieved at the same point?

                  • BM

                    Kelvin Davis works for canz, he has no credibility.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Christian Accomodation NZ?

                      Composers Association of New Zealand?

                      Celebrants Association of New Zealand?

                      Aha! Corrections Association of New Zealand.

                      He’s involved with a union therefore has no credibility according to a right winger.

                      As I said on this thread, Davis’ work has directly contributed to the increased focus on the Australian government policy on detention of NZ citizens and indirectly on the increased pressure on the Australian government to close offshore detention centres.

                      His work is directly responsible for the holding to account of Serco’s mismanagement of MECF and has brought to bear increased scrutiny of Wiri. The current government would have done neither of these things if they were allowed to get away with it. Davis forced the sacking of one of John Key’s pet, token, brown projects in Sam Lotu Iiga. He forced Key to reinstate the corrupt trout, Judith Collins.

                      These are major achievements in just two years, but then you say he has no credibility?

                  • The Chairman

                    Hone would have brought Laila in. And she is left wing gold.

                    Ask yourself what have the left missed out on by keeping them out?

                    As for Davis, he could have achieved those same goals if he was placed high on the party list.

                    • Muttonbird

                      They weren’t good enough. How do you think they’d perform in front of the media and in parliament if they’d been gifted the seat?

                      Kelvin Davis has proven to be a tenacious and committed fighter for the vulnerable and one of Labours best performers. As I said, he wouldn’t have the mandate to do what he’s done if he’d rolled over for Hone Harawira.

                    • save nz

                      Totally agree Chairman!

                  • The Chairman

                    Supported not gifted. Showing the left can also utilize MMP.

                    They would have got on with the job, adding to the good work Davis has done. Tripling the bang for the left’s buck.

                    The work Davis has done didn’t require a voter mandate.

              • Colonial Viper

                You’d prefer Labour told Kelvin Davis to stand down in TTT and gift Hone the seat in 2014?

                Labour aren’t in the business of doing that.

                Indeed. It suited Labour perfectly to keep Hone and Laila out of Parliament.

                Both would have been true left wing voices in Parliament.

                • Muttonbird

                  Can’t see how it suited them. I’m sure Labour would have welcomed Hone and Laila as voices representing Maori, the left, the disenfranchised, and those who want change.

                  Labour also would have wanted them to have got there on their own steam rather than weakening Labour by giving them a leg up as you and The Chairman wanted.

                  They couldn’t.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Doesn’t matter to me; just means that Labour has one less MMP ally next year to try and form a coalition with.

                    Also, try this perspective.

                    Hone clearly got more votes in 2014 than he did in 2011.

                    But he lost by around 700 votes because National, Labour and NZ First each instructed their voters to choose Kelvin Davis.

                    • Muttonbird

                      I remember why I don’t converse with you.

                      You are all strategy, and no conscience. That’s what happens to the politically tragic.

  13. The Chairman 14

    Nicola Willis has launched a challenge against incumbent candidate and list MP Paul Foster-Bell (National’s Wellington Central candidate) for the party’s nomination, which opens in January.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/prime-minister-recruits-corporate-high-flyer-for-2017-2016112415

  14. Andre 15

    Oh jeez. Looks like education in the US is about to try a whole bunch more craptacularly bad ideas that no doubt our local clowns will be falling over themselves to copy.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2016/11/how_trump_and_education_secretary_betsy_devos_could_gut_public_education.html

  15. The Chairman 16

    Open for business?

    It seems nobody is ensuring surrounding buildings don’t pose a risk when buildings have been cleared to open.

    Has commonsense and public safety gone out the window in the rush to get back to business?

    • Morrissey 17.1

      This is nothing more than a mean-spirited attack on Andrew Little’s appearance and way of speaking. This is by no means the first time Trotter has had a go at Little like this.

      Ironically, just to the left of that hatchet job, Trotter has listed the “Bowalley Road Rules”….

      The blogosphere tends to be a very noisy, and all-too-often a very abusive, place. I intend Bowalley Road to be a much quieter, and certainly a more respectful, place. ….

      Courtesy and Respect.
      Comments which are defamatory, vituperative, snide or hurtful will be removed, and the commentators responsible permanently banned.

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.1

        You conveniently ignored the substance of Trotter’s criticism which has zero to do with the way Little looks or sounds:

        Labour’s policy proposition in 2017 isn’t 50 – but 64 – shades of grey.

        The worst thing is, Little and his advisors flatly refuse to see this as a problem. They have only the coldest disdain for the sort of wild-eyed populism which has swept across the United Kingdom and the United States in 2016, and which, in 2017, threatens to wreak equal havoc among the political classes of Italy and France. It’s simply not the way the shell-shocked party pulled together by Helen Clark, Michael Cullen and Steve Maharey cares to do business. When asked whether he would have voted for Jeremy Corbyn, the present, British-born, President of the NZ Labour Party responded curtly: “No.”

        In morbid conformity with the limp “Third-Way-ism” which still engrosses them, Little and his people – like Hillary and hers – have placed all their eggs in one technological basket. The mysterious algorithms of their data-manipulating, voter-identifying wonks will do what thousands of committed followers – apparently – cannot. They will locate all the shy, centrist voters Labour needs to win. That these same mysterious algorithms singularly failed to deliver the White House to Hillary has not shaken their confidence in electoral mechanisation.

        • Morrissey 17.1.1.1

          Fair comment, Viper. I actually agree with most of his criticisms of Little, but the fact remains that it begins as a personal attack on his looks and his lack of “charisma.” I find that offensive, and—when you consider his pious little admonition against “snide or hurtful” comments—hypocritical in the extreme. I was also unimpressed by Trotter’s vacuous enthusiasm for Justin Trudeau’s “wit and movie-star good-looks”.

          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1.1

            I think it’s important to look at the Trotter piece in totality, and to me the implicit message is clear: if he is somewhat short of charming good looks and lens fixating charisma, Little better have a whole lot of political courage and policy chutzpah going for him in his favour.

            But he doesn’t.

        • Jenny Kirk 17.1.1.2

          Just to remind people, and Colonial Viper, Chris Trotter is not a friend of Labour – he has some sort of snitch scratching at him with Labour which goes back years.

          And I’m not sure where he found the comment re If Andrew Little would have voted for Jeremy Corbyn – because AL’s response to Corbyn winning the UK Labour leadership was positive.
          http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/andrew-little-corbyn-brings-refreshing-style-2015091320

          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.2.1

            Although it’s sort of politic to say nice things about a fellow Labour Leader once they have become the Leader.

            My question would be what positive remarks did Little make about Corbyn in the months before that.

          • Red 17.1.1.2.2

            Freiend or friend not the article rings true. you could argue been left and not a labour cheer leader his view has more weight Where I disagree if he thinks labour going Corbyn left is the answer, “tell em he’s joking”

  16. Morrissey 18

    Gary McCormick announces: “I would rather trust the experts.”
    But have a look at how he treated an expert five years ago.

    The Panel, RNZ National, Wednesday 23 November 2016
    Wallace Chapman, Alan Blackman, Gary McCormick, Megan Whelan

    humbug n., a willfully false, deceptive, or insincere person

    For a change there was, briefly, something resembling an earnest discussion on Wednesday’s edition of Jim Mora’s pisspoor chat show. This one was about whether or not it was safe to go back into Wellington buildings closed down after the earthquake. The most earnest of all the Panelists was regular guest Gary McCormick, who told how the people of Christchurch had gone through all of this before, and after an earthquake was no time to take chances. “I would rather trust the experts,” he intoned.

    No doubt more than a few long-time listeners to this show would have snorted to hear McCormick talk like that. Back in March 2011, Gary McCormick embarked on a demeaning, philistine attack on Professor Nick Wilson, a world-renowned expert on tobacco epidemiology. Also ganging up on the Professor were Jim Mora and Raybon Kan…..

    GARY McCORMICK: Yeah I know Nick, we get this a lot from health professionals! Do we have any EVIDENCE that second-hand smoke HARMS PEOPLE?

    PROFESSOR WILSON: The World Health Organization has presented reams of evidence that even a low level of second-hand smo—-

    JIM MORA: Look, Nick, uhhh, you’re the medical professional and, uhhhh, I don’t want to argue the science with you but, uhhhhh, I’ve seen those Scottish statistics and they were heavily disputed and refuted!

    McCORMICK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re right, Nick, but we ordinary citizens keep hearing this scientific research which isn’t that sound. So Nick, tell us: is it that important?

    PROFESSOR WILSON: Four hundred deaths is not trivial.

    JIM MORA: But that’s an extrapolation as well, isn’t it!

    RAYBON KAN: Nick, you seem quite hung up on this science thing. Ummmm, how does smoke compare with the threat of sunlight?

    McCORMICK: A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Good one, Raybon!

    PROFESSOR WILSON: It’s not really the same thing.

    McCORMICK: Yes it is, actually! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    JIM MORA: Doesn’t this come back to John Stuart Mill, that unless we can PROVE harm, then we have no right to ban something. It’s all about rights, surely?

    PROFESSOR WILSON: Non-smokers have the right to breathe clean air.

    McCORMICK: Yeah Nick, I’m concerned about the rights of people to experience direct sunlight. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    RAYBON KAN: He he he he he he he! Nice one, Gary!

    JIM MORA: Doctor Nick Wilson, from the Otago University School of Medicine and Health Science. Nick, THANKS for being with us! It’s time for the News.

    Following the news break of five minutes, the panelists are still flushed with the triumph of their mauling of Professor Wilson…

    McCORMICK: That was lovely, Raybon, what you said about the sun. We really need to go after people like that. We often get put in a situation where we BELIEVE the experts. It’s good to challenge them!

    RAYBON KAN: What ISN’T a carcinogen? Sun is a carcinogen. Sugar is a carcinogen. LIFE is a carcinogen! Being BORN is a carcinogen! This science is vaguely interesting, like vegemite, so move on!

    McCORMICK: Ha ha ha ha ha haha! Well put, Raybon!

    JIM MORA: Ha ha ha ha ha haha! Well said, Raybon. You’re very clever! Okay, onto our next topic: Sara Palin.

    McCORMICK: Sara Palin? She’s too STUPID to be true!

    More of McCormick’s unfunny display of contempt for an expert…

    Open mike 11/03/2011

  17. Red 20

    What do we read into Telegraph science article re Antartica sea ice is no different than 100 years ago I ask in serioness not as a wind up, No one denies climate is changing but if true this must raise some question of models and forecasts ?

    • b waghorn 20.1

      With out you linking it’s hard to tell, i do believe though that it has something to do with the polar winds swirling the antarctic keeping the warm air at bay,

      • BM 20.1.1

        I believe it’s something to do with the hypotheticals.

      • DoublePlusGood 20.1.2

        It is exactly the antarctic vortex, combined with such a massive area of ice can shed an awful lot of mass while not really being super noticeable. Shrinking ice area in Greenland is much more obvious.

    • Anne 20.2

      @ Red
      What the article is reporting is that the effect of Global Warming on the Antarctic ice shelf is not as great as first feared. That is not to say there is no effect, just that it is not occurring at the same rate as the Arctic Circle. Not surprising because the Northern Hemisphere is far more densely populated so one would expect more rapid man-made atmospheric warming causing the temperature of the northern seas to also rapidly rise.

      • Red 20.2.1

        Thank you. One news ran with story tonight without much explanation of why or what is potential ramifications of these findings to climate change models. You think they could have gone ask some experts for an opinion at least. You do wonder if we over play what we understand in science I was reading an article the other day from NASA re the impossible engine, a NASA developed engine that defys classical laws of physics in thatt every action has an opposite reaction, In essence Nasa has developed and engine that propels and object without a propellant. Most scientist rubbished the idea but it does seem to work and while most still hold newtons third law they believe something is going on that we dont understand. My long winded point is you sort of wonder that understanding and predicting climate change is similar, not prejudging if human driven climate change is under or overstated either way, we just don’t no re the accuracy and predictability of our models. In this regard a safe bet probably makes acting in caution a sensible option, even though it may be pointless

        • b waghorn 20.2.1.1

          that engine thing is exciting ,everything is lining up for space travel shame we may have cooked ourselves before we get there.

        • Anne 20.2.1.2

          You also have to take into account the media tendency to over-hype for the purpose of creating click baits etc. Where Climate Change is concerned, only the most ignorant and uneducated still deny it’s existence [eg. Donald Trump]. Yet the media continued to give the deniers equal space long after their ‘scientific rebuttals’ had been debunked. All in the name of a good story… and the planet be dammed.

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