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Open Mike 26/08/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 26th, 2018 - 183 comments
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183 comments on “Open Mike 26/08/2018”

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  1. Ed 1
    26 August 2018 at 7:34 am

    Dan Rowe nails it.

    Why you should give a damn about feedlots

    …. the lifespan of a beef cow on a feedlot is decided by two metrics: how fast we can fatten them up, and how long their body can survive the process.

    This is, ethically speaking, fucked up. And most people don’t even know it’s going on in New Zealand.

    The government has signalled they will step in by the first quarter of next year to provide national guidance to councils on feedlots. In the Herald, Rachel Stewart warns “a storm’” of animal cruelty allegations is coming.

    To read his brilliant article, click here.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/food/23-08-2018/why-you-should-give-a-damn-about-feedlots/

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1
      26 August 2018 at 7:43 am

      Bring on the lab meat alternatives.

      • Ed 1.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 7:53 am

        Even more animal cruelty.

        Fish and Game last night released footage of cows udder-deep in mud, struggling to walk around a saturated South Island farm. A recent rise in intensive winter grazing has been met with increasing damage to waterways and animal welfare, the group said.

        ….Fish and Game executive Martin Taylor said the rise of intensive winter grazing has had immediate environmental impact.

        “Fish and Game has been watching this practice and what we have seen is deeply disturbing. You can see animals knee deep in mud and dirty water, with sediment washing unchecked into nearby waterways,” he said. “This mud washes into drains, streams and rivers, choking the environment and smothering insect and plant life.”

        ….New Zealand Veterinary Association chief veterinary officer Helen Beattie said cows in these conditions are at increased risk of lameness and mastitis, and are unable to exhibit natural behaviour like lying down to chew cud – a crucial part of rumination.

        ….Fish and Game says local councils are complicit in the continued degradation of lakes and waterways

        “Unsightly plumes of discoloured water can be seen billowing downstream from winter feeding sites, yet the councils responsible for monitoring seem to be turning a blind eye to the damage being caused,” Taylor said.

        “Some councils like Southland are using their so-called environmental plans to make it even easier for farmers to use this destructive practice.”

        https://thespinoff.co.nz/food/24-08-2018/action-promised-on-intensive-farming-after-distressing-images-released/

        • Ed 1.1.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 8:08 am

          And even more.

          Thanks to Kirsty Johnston for uncovering this monstrous practice.
          This barbaric………

          Pregnant cows ‘suffering’ for calf blood industry

          Heavily pregnant cows are being slaughtered and the blood drained from their unborn calves’ hearts to be sold for export – where it’s used to produce vaccines and fake meat.

          While the practice is legal, an industry whistleblower says it frequently causes unnecessary suffering, as the pregnant cows are confined in trucks or left standing for long periods.

          The Herald on Sunday’s source, who did not want to be named to protect their job, said while some farmers may legitimately have miscalculated a cow’s pregnancy, others were acting out of greed.

          ” Some will leave the cow pregnant as long as possible to get a bigger foetus to get more blood, to get more money,” the insider said.

          “And that cow has already given her life to produce milk, I just don’t see how they justify it. I think it’s an appalling practice.”

          …Until now, the industry has gone largely under the radar. The Herald on Sunday’s source decided to come forward in the wake of the mycoplasma bovis outbreak, accusing farmers who said they didn’t want to kill pregnant cattle of being hypocritical.

          Marcelo Rodriguez Ferrere, a senior law lecturer in the field of animal law and welfare, said there was no necessity to impregnate cows that were going to die.

          ” One has to consider that we’re not talking about non-sentient beings. We’re talking about animals that can feel pain and distress, and also have the capacity to feel positive emotions,” he said.

          “That seems to be lost in the most graphic of ways here. We’re treating the cow as it’s seen in the law as a commodity – butjust because law recognises that as being acceptable doesn’t make it morally acceptable.”

          Read the whole article here.
          And do something!

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12113527

          • Ed 1.1.1.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 9:09 am

            Scum.

            “”Some will leave the cow pregnant as long as possible to get a bigger foetus to get more blood, to get more money,” the insider said.”

          • bwaghorn 1.1.1.1.2
            26 August 2018 at 9:36 am

            I m not a fan of killing pregnant cows and I noted they use foetal blood for the fake meat industry.

            • Ed 1.1.1.1.2.1
              26 August 2018 at 9:44 am

              I saw that.
              I don’t eat fake meat.

            • joe90 1.1.1.1.2.2
              26 August 2018 at 9:54 am

              Odds are yourself, or one of your own has benefited from diagnose using bovine foetal serum in laboratory cultures, too.

              • bwaghorn …
                26 August 2018 at 2:28 pm

                I should have clarified , I’m not a fan of deliberately getting cows in calf to kill or waiting till they are right on the drop to send them . We send plenty of in calf cows to slaughter for ligitamate reasons

        • Ed 1.1.1.2
          26 August 2018 at 4:10 pm

          So the sum of the arguments made thus far against three horrific examples of animal abuse are:
          1. Some people like eating meat.
          2. It’s never going to change. People have always eaten meat.
          3. People will lose their jobs.
          4 You are too black and white about issues.
          5. Your message is too blunt.

          Let’s look at slavery in the eighteenth century.
          Some people liked having slaves.
          Many people said it couldn’t change.
          It was argued that jobs in the cotton factories would disappear.

          And slavery was abolished.

      • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1.2
        26 August 2018 at 8:01 am

        Well not this lab meat.

        Heavily pregnant cows are being slaughtered and the blood drained from their unborn calves’ hearts to be sold for export – where it’s used to produce vaccines and fake meat.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12113527

        • Ed 1.1.2.1
          26 August 2018 at 9:07 am

          The gulag is being exposed.

          • joe90 1.1.2.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 9:15 am

            You’re equating the collection of animal byproducts to the millions, including members of my own family, who suffered the most terrible deprivations and died in forced labour camps, you POS.

            Go fuck yourself.

            • Ed 1.1.2.1.1.1
              26 August 2018 at 9:23 am

              I am deliberately comparing the systematic torture, degradation and slaughter of sentient beings.

              To quote Marcelo Rodriguez Ferrere, a senior law lecturer in the field of animal law and welfare, on the matter.

              ” One has to consider that we’re not talking about non-sentient beings. We’re talking about animals that can feel pain and distress, and also have the capacity to feel positive emotions,” he said.

            • greywarshark 1.1.2.1.1.2
              26 August 2018 at 10:20 am

              Slow down Joe 90. We are all helpless animals at times, it isn’t awful to consider both human animal and field animal suffering. It actually is an indication of reaching higher sensitivity and respect for all of us.

              • Ed …
                26 August 2018 at 11:15 am

                Exactly my point.

                • marty mars …
                  26 August 2018 at 11:34 am

                  You devalue your argument. You’re a wanker for bringing that in especially as you’re a born again vegan.

                • joe90 …
                  26 August 2018 at 11:45 am

                  You don’t have a point. You have a sanctimonious, rotating grievance schedule of whatever issue of the month that you happen latch yourself on to, and then you spam the bejesus out of it.

                  • veutoviper …
                    26 August 2018 at 12:33 pm

                    He actually does far more damage than good with his over the top black and white approach. I was involved in the animal welfare/animal rights area on a voluntary basis for several decades and even some of the hardcore animal rightists cringe at the type of approach Ed uses. I still totally support getting rid of any form of animal cruelty etc but react quite the opposite to Ed’s dictatorial one dimensional lectures.

                    Ditto I have many highly qualified friends in the professional drug and alcohol counselling field. When I showed a couple of them Ed’s comments last Sunday, they had apoplexy as his approach is the exact opposite to the approaches that are proven to get results in that area. I actually wonder about his age – maturitywise rather than physical – as most people reach the realisation that the real world is not black and white but has many shades of grey by their late teens/early 20s.

                    • Grey Area …
                      26 August 2018 at 1:39 pm

                      …his approach is the exact opposite to the approaches that are proven to get results in that area.

                      So if Ed’s “shock, horror” approach doesn’t work what will to get people to acknowledge the inherent cruelty of breeding animals, often in inhumane conditions, so they can be slaughtered so humans can choose to eat animal flesh.

                      It’s a serious question.

                      What do your friends say does work in drug and alcohol counselling?

                      I’m genuinely interested because I was in a cafe this morning ordering a flat white (non-dairy of course) and looked in the food cabinet to find two vegetarian options (one being the ubiquitous, imagination-free frittata) while several other options had bacon in them when they would have been fine without it.

                      Why? Consumer expectation and habit I guess. So many people seem to think they haven’t eaten food unless it has meat in it.

                    • joe90 …
                      26 August 2018 at 1:54 pm

                      Dude’s clueless.

                      More then a thousand families in my community rely directly on the meat processing industry for their livelihoods and occasionally, I’ve relied on the industry myself.

                      Over the years I’ve got to know lots of skilled and unskilled people who work at the plants and despite being a laborious, uncomfortable and at times, rather unpleasant job working for the likes of Talleys, they’re proud of their work and most give an actual fuck about the animals they’re processing.

                      They’re the ones attending to the animals welfare by using holding, herding, kill and stunning methods accurately, doing the huge days to get them through plants in a timely manner and following delays and breakdowns, doing the early calls and unscheduled OT

                      The folk operating the knock box are the ones reporting broken tails and the those doing the evisceration are reporting parasites and animal health and the bunging, singing, and pelting crews are the ones reporting udder and hock injuries.

                      And I’ve heard of breakdown saw operators reporting bruised, maltreated carcasses, too.

                      That’s not to say it’s all sweetness and light in the meat industry and that there aren’t some dodgy AF farming practices.

                      But rather than harangue, lecture, and threaten livelihoods, newly minted sensitives souls like Eddie have realise that despite their sentient being shtick, the meat industry is here to stay and if they give a rat’s arse about animal welfare, begin advocating for better practices.

                    • Ed …
                      26 August 2018 at 2:16 pm

                      What is grey about industrial factory farming like this?

                    • Grey Area …
                      26 August 2018 at 3:28 pm

                      Still can’t see relevant reply buttons (on two different browsers) so this one is for James lower down in the thread because I’ve restrained myself for long enough:

                      Most people eat meat

                      So f…n what? It doesn’t make it right.

                      Do you ever stop and consider for a second that the small, quiet voice might be the voice of reason, the voice of mercy, the voice of justice?

                      Or do you never hear it?

                      Far easier to come on hear and say “I love beef”. I was waiting for you and sure enough you appeared. And you accuse Ed of being a broken record.

                  • Ed …
                    26 August 2018 at 2:04 pm

                    You come over a real bully boy in your manner, joe.
                    I will not be silenced by your abusive tone.

                    People once said slavery was ‘there to stay.’
                    People argued that they’d lose jobs if slavery went.

                    Thanks to the courage of people like William Wilberforce it was abolished.

                    • joe90 …
                      26 August 2018 at 2:18 pm

                      Oh look, Eddie thinks he’s the Willy Wilberforce of his day.

                      Conceited twit.

                    • James []
                      26 August 2018 at 2:37 pm

                      I love beef – although don’t eat as much as I used to – I prefer pork and chicken.

                      However the beef I do eat is with homekill for first light farms – they put out an amazing product.

                    • Ed …
                      26 August 2018 at 2:23 pm

                      It would be nice if you could debate the issue and not attack the messenger.
                      Your bullying style is abhorrent to many.

                      There are significant issues with the industrial farming in New Zealand
                      Feedlots.
                      Winter grazing.
                      The killing of pregnant cows for profit.

                    • James []
                      26 August 2018 at 3:00 pm

                      Most people eat meat.

                      You are the ones who attacks people and their morals because they eat meat.

                      What is an issue for you might not be an issue for the majority.

                      But you are like a broken record.

                    • joe90 …
                      26 August 2018 at 2:53 pm

                      abhorrent to many

                      Who are these many?

                    • Ed …
                      26 August 2018 at 3:05 pm

                      I agree.
                      Most people do eat meat.
                      However, I very much doubt that most people realise how their meat is processed.
                      The stories about feedlots, the killing of pregnant cows and other horror stories will mean more people will stop believing the fantasy they are told about animal farming.

                    • James []
                      26 August 2018 at 3:48 pm

                      You make a lot of assumptions that people are ignorant of facts if they think different to you.

                      People are still going to eat meat and enjoy it.

                      Roll on bbq season.

                    • Grey Area …
                      26 August 2018 at 3:10 pm

                      The Reply button seems to be inconsistent today so this is for Joe 90.

                      But rather than harangue, lecture, and threaten livelihoods, newly minted sensitives souls like Eddie have realise that despite their sentient being shtick, the meat industry is here to stay and if they give a rat’s arse about animal welfare, begin advocating for better practices.

                      Ah, no. The meat industry is here to stay? Good luck with that.

                      There is some huge cognitive dissonance going here Joe with someone who is concerned about how an animal was treated before they kill it. You sound like James.

                      Killing less cruelly is still killing. Humans do not have to eat meat to survive and if we didn’t, a huge number of other sentient beings with whom we share this planet would not have to die in distress. Or they would simply not be bred as food for humans in the first place.

                      Do you think even sheep with their more limited intelligence don’t know what’s going to happen to them as they are pushed up the race? I’m sure they smell it in the air.

                      And as for pigs, they would have an even better idea.

                      And don’t think I haven’t experienced the reality. Many years ago in another life I worked in a freezing works. Interesting we called them “freezing works” not killing sheds, although they are referred to as slaughterhouses. Nowadays they are referred to as meat processing plants. Call them what they are I say.

                      I was lucky I guess to work in the freezers but at times we went up to the top floor to see how the frozen carcasses got to us and I know it’s not pretty.

                      But despite my misgivings about Ed’s approach when I watch some of those clips I cry – literally. Because I know it’s wrong.

                    • David Mac …
                      26 August 2018 at 3:53 pm

                      How do you spot a vegan at a party?

                      Just wait, they’ll tell you.

                    • Ed …
                      26 August 2018 at 3:54 pm

                      To James
                      It is clear many people had no idea about feedlots in NZ from Checkpoint’s coverage.

                    • Ed …
                      26 August 2018 at 3:57 pm

                      @David Mac
                      Do you actually have an argument in defence of feedlots and other horrific examples of animal cruelty exposed in the past 3 weeks – or is your contribution just to join in the name calling led by joe90 and James?

                    • David Mac …
                      26 August 2018 at 4:06 pm

                      Ed, I don’t really want to get into a conversation about wolves with someone that comes running down the hill every morning shrieking ‘Wolves’. I think you’re obsessed and incapable of entertaining anything resembling a balanced view Ed.

                      Does your poo smell?

                    • Ed …
                      26 August 2018 at 4:17 pm

                      @David Mac
                      What is a ‘balanced view’ on feedlots?
                      What is a ‘balanced view’ on killing pregnant cows?
                      What is a ‘balanced view’ on the industrialised killing and torture of 65 billion animals?

                    • greywarshark …
                      26 August 2018 at 5:05 pm

                      Oh give us a break Ed. This isn’t meant to be a soapbox for endless stuff from anyone. Make your point then shut up. Stop hitting us over the head with your superior ideals. You are becoming a troll. Are you in the USA did you say in one of your comments? Related to Trump perhaps?

                    • One Two []
                      26 August 2018 at 7:07 pm

                      GW

                      Leave the insults out of it..as you request others to do…

                      Are you ok?…your comments are becoming increasingly angry by your previous measures..

            • Ed 1.1.2.1.2.1
              26 August 2018 at 9:52 am

              • Andre …
                26 August 2018 at 4:07 pm

                There’s a pack of ravioli in the freezer that kinda had tonight’s dinner written on it. With tomato sauce, olives, capers, maybe some artichoke hearts.

                But after those videos I’m in the mood for something with a bit more protein and texture. Burgerfuel’s special for this month with a couple of thin-sliced steaks is looking mighty appetizing rightabout now.

                • Ed …
                  26 August 2018 at 4:12 pm

                  Making a smart comment does not equal a cogent argument against cruelty to animals.
                  Feedlots are an abomination.

                  • Andre …
                    26 August 2018 at 4:22 pm

                    I’m very unlikely to get any more cats after I needed to call time on my dear old buddy, at least until I move somewhere where cat-like creatures are part of the local ecosystem. Because Gareth Morgan actually happens to be mostly right on the topic of cats in NZs natural places.

                    But if Gareth Morgan happened to be my neighbour, I’d be absolutely sure to get a couple more. Can you possibly think why, and how that applies to the way you present your views here?

                  • joe90 …
                    26 August 2018 at 4:26 pm

                    Waitatapia Station, west of Bulls, bring cattle down from the central plateau to overwintering feedlots to keep them dry and warm and feed them locally cropped fodder.

                    Are they an abomination?

                    • Ed …
                      26 August 2018 at 4:34 pm

                      The thread I started was about feedlots, winter grazing and killing pregnant cows.
                      The purpose was to highlight some of the cruellest practices going on in the industrial farming model.
                      If the feedlots near Bulls have the same environmental impact and treat cows like 5 Star do,yes it is an abomination.
                      Do you approve of the industrial farming model as highlighted by the 3 stories I highlighted?

                    • greywarshark …
                      26 August 2018 at 5:06 pm

                      It is pointless debating here. Real truth from you Ed. Go somewhere else and enlighten them.

                      Ed gives an example of why I think that there should be a stop on any one thread of say five comments. If a person can’t make his or her point in that time then they are just a waste of space.

                      My five are about up so I will withdraw.

                  • Andre …
                    26 August 2018 at 7:56 pm

                    BTW Ed, the burger I ended up getting was really gooooood. An absolutely delightful combination of the holy trinity of well-done beef mince, bacon, and cheese, with some extra trimmings you wouldn’t want to know about.

                    Thanks for inspiring me out of my last few days of meat-free eating to go get it.

    • greywarshark 2.1
      26 August 2018 at 10:45 am

      A tenant story I have heard. The tenant knew that the owners wanted to return and take possession of the house later in the year and was waiting for advice giving a period in which to search for another rental.

      Recently a phone call was received asking were they ready to be shift out so that occupation could be taken up in a week. Apparently an email had been sent months ago and hadn’t been seen by the tenant. The tenant looked through the various folders but no record of any message. In the end an extra week was allowed. But what a shock and upset to be so near to being homeless, and with children and furniture to have shelter for.

      The point here reinforces my own feeling, that turning away from paper to the ephemeral world of the net, is going to be a huge disadvantage to communication.
      Both systems are helpful, and using both will be wise. Perhaps a letter with a follow-up internet confirmation, or vice versa. It would have been a great thing for this tenant to have received a confirmation in the mail.

      The good news is that with a little time off work, and a short search on the internet and a bit of travelling by car, a new place that is rather small but suitable for about a year was found. Big relief. But the stress for people unable to get time off work, to have public transport at suitable times and then time to tramp the streets to visit the advertised offerings for suitability, the shifting of furniture, the final cleaning to the required level for bond return, as well as looking after the children, thinking also about school and how to access it.

      A big burden. Can we decide to love all our families in NZ please, and give them much more support that they can call on when needed?

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 1:53 pm

        The point here reinforces my own feeling, that turning away from paper to the ephemeral world of the net, is going to be a huge disadvantage to communication.

        Wrong.

        Shifting to digital will improve communication. Email can even force a reply.

        Paper takes longer, costs more and can simply get lost.

        It would have been a great thing for this tenant to have received a confirmation in the mail.

        No, they should have had an agreed date for the end of the lease.

        • McFlock 2.1.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 3:56 pm

          A fixed-term lease doesn’t suit everyone.

          Dunno what you mean by email being able to “force a reply”. Request read-receipt can be declined.

          Personally my feeling is that unless the service is documented officially (and who’s to know if an email went to an unchecked or wrong address), the end of lease doesn’t count.

          In the world of Captain Hindsight, the landlord should have called the tenant and confirmed the receipt of the notice.

        • greywarshark 2.1.1.2
          26 August 2018 at 5:07 pm

          DTB
          You are so sure of yourself. Pity that you don’t live in the real world.

          • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.2.1
            26 August 2018 at 6:27 pm

            I do live in the real world.

            It is you who are refusing to change with it.

            • Ed 2.1.1.2.1.1
              26 August 2018 at 7:01 pm

              Yes, he attacks me for challenging the present farming model.

              • joe90 …
                26 August 2018 at 7:38 pm

                Seems you’re wanting an alternative to the use of covered feed pads to extend pasture rotation, control nutrient run off, effluent and leachate, manage soil structure, and during/after wet conditions, prevent pasture damage, reduce the pugging of paddocks and prevent lameness/mastitis, manage animal health and nutrition, and keep the damned beasties warm and dry.

        • One Two 2.1.1.3
          26 August 2018 at 7:10 pm

          Shifting to digital will improve communication…

          WRONG!

          Yes DTB, you have a digital fetish, I get it…

          The ‘real world’ you claim to live in…tell me all about it…genuinely interested how you see the digital world , ‘as real’..

          • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.3.1
            26 August 2018 at 8:09 pm

            It’s not the digital world that’s real.

            It’s how it changes the way we interact with the world.

            How it allows us to accept reality the way it is rather than through the delusional ideologies of yesteryear.

  3. Observer Tokoroa 3
    26 August 2018 at 7:52 am

    Simon’s Denials

    Simon Bridges has blamed the Labour Party for Leaking his disgusting over expenditure of Tax Payers money in his cocky little jaunt through New Zealand.

    Even though he already knew that was not the case.

    Why do the Leaders of national lie about virtually everything. Housing crises; they lie about the Poverty affecting thousands of kiwis; lie about the so called Drug abuse of kiwi youth who apply for jobs; Lies lies Lies

    Simon, like Paula, like Sir John Key, like Sir Billy English – is ignoring reality and tarring himself with the same outrageous dishonesty that defines the National Party and its followers.

    It is an utter shame that nearly 42% of our Parliament is totally untrustworthy. Not only incompetent – but deliberately slippery and crooked.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1
      26 August 2018 at 1:55 pm

      Why do the Leaders of national lie about virtually everything.

      They have to else no one would ever vote for them.

  4. Ed 4
    26 August 2018 at 8:32 am

    Robert Fisk: Israel is building another 1,000 homes on Palestinian land and nobody is saying anything

    In the week that Uri Avnery, the scourge of colonialism, died in Tel Aviv, the Israeli government announced a further enlargement of its massive colonial project in the occupied West Bank. Plans were now advanced, it said on Wednesday, for a further 1,000 “homes” in Jewish “settlements” – still the word we must use for such acts of land theft – and final approval had been given for another 382. Today, 600,000 Jewish Israelis live in about 140 colonies constructed on land belonging to another people, the Palestinians, either in the West Bank or east Jerusalem.

    There is a state of normalcy about all this, the world’s last colonial conflict; a weariness with the figures, a lacklustre response to the huge construction enterprise on Palestinian territory. Charting the spread of red roofs across the hilltops of the West Bank, the swimming pools and the lawns and smart roadways, the supermarkets and orchards – all encircled by acres of barbed wire and now also by the grotesque Wall – has become not so much a “story” for us reporters covering the Middle East, but a tired routine, a tally, a scorecard of land theft, a tale to be updated with each new “settlement” announcement and subsequent protest from Palestinians whose land is taken from them, and from the woeful and corrupt Palestinian Authority. The same is true of the small Israeli activist and leftist groups – B’Tselem, for example and Avnery’s own Gush Shalom – who have bravely fought on, when even Israel stopped listening, to tell the truth of this unique form of aggression.

    Never in the field of human rights has so much been owed by so many, to so few.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/israel-settlement-expansion-1000-new-homes-palestinian-land-robert-fisk-wheres-the-outrage-a8504471.html

  5. Rosemary McDonald 5
    26 August 2018 at 8:49 am

    Great to see our PM continuing the the Key tradition of post match locker room hobnobbing with a professional sports team who exploits the occasion to plea for ( more) corporate welfare $$$ from an already pressured new government.

    SSDD.

    • Philj 5.1
      26 August 2018 at 9:00 am

      ” … plea for ( more) corporate welfare…” Please elucidate, with references.

      • Cinny 5.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 9:19 am

        Philj, I think this maybe the article Rosemary is referring too.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12113673

        This bit… ‘”I said (Steve Hanson) to Grant Robertson they should be our biggest sponsors because we’re their biggest brand, and could she find some money to help us compete against the likes of England and France to help us keep our players. So there wasn’t a lot said after that.”

        • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 9:40 am

          Thanks Cindy, can’t link from my phone.

          Seriously, footage of Ardern in the locker room should have come with a trigger alert for those of us still traumatized by such images of Key similarly fawning over these well paid sports people.

          Though I guess is noteworthy in these times that such professionals have actually done their job to an acceptable standard.

          • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 10:00 am

            I. Of course I meant ‘Cinny’, damn predictive text and fat fingers! 😉

            • Cinny 5.1.1.1.1.1
              26 August 2018 at 10:08 am

              Hehehe sweet as Rosemary,

              Had another chuckle, re national this week when our local weekly paper came out. A wonderful photo on the front page, of our Motueka protest for the teachers strike.

              Was so happy our local rag didn’t crop my sign….hehehehe…. you’ll have a giggle when you see it, it’s hard to miss… Lmao 🙂 It’s the sign in the middle with a ‘blue logo’ 😉

              • greywarshark …
                26 August 2018 at 10:51 am

                You get top of the class for the most effective and readable sign Cinny.
                I could see Value the children And Then Value their Teachers too. Stand outs.

        • Gabby 5.1.1.2
          26 August 2018 at 2:28 pm

          I’d’ve thought Fonterra would be a bit bigger. They pay their execs as if they were.

        • Philj 5.1.1.3
          26 August 2018 at 7:45 pm

          Thanks Cinny, the link does provide an insight into how corporate and government relate, a bit like a PPP.Cheers.

    • Cinny 5.2
      26 August 2018 at 9:16 am

      national party supporters are going to lose their minds about her being in the AB’s locker room.

      Last years election win is the gift that keep on giving 🙂 loving it.

      Hehe.. never heard comments from the players like this when key was grandstanding….

      Hurricanes players Perenara and Ardie Savea and Chiefs midfielder Anton Lienert-Brown gave Ardern a kiss after the on-field presentation, with Perenara later telling the media of his gift:

      “She’s special to my family and to my community so that’s something that was important for me to do.”

      Congrats to the AB’s last nights game was outstanding.

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.2.1
        26 August 2018 at 9:48 am

        The Black Ferns/Wallaroo game was much more exciting.

        Both teams played with enthusiasm, competency and flair.

        The win to the recently professionalised Black Ferns was richly deserved.
        I confess to having dozed off in the first half of the men’s game…despite the raucous company at the RSA.

        • Cinny 5.2.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 10:02 am

          Hey Rosemary, they didn’t show the Black Ferns game on Prime, as far as I know 🙁 Hope you had a great night out, RSA is a fantastic venue for watching sport, lucky lady 🙂

          Didn’t catch the first half of the AB’s.

          I’ve a long standing date at 8:30pm on Saturday nights…. addicted to The Listening Post 🙂 Excellent episode this week.

          https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/listeningpost/

          • Carolyn_Nth 5.2.1.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 10:17 am

            They showed the Black Ferns game on prim AFTER the ABs match, even though the women’s match was played first. It was getting to be past my bed time, having been up fairly early for work yesterday.

            I only watched the beginning of the women’s match, and having recorded it, was planning to watch the rest today (thanks, Rosemary, now I know who won before I watched it 😁)

            Anyway, I’m with Rosemary in that I’m not happy about a Labour-led government following the Nats’ PR strategy of locker room attendance, and related photo ops.

            The thing I did pick up at the beginning of the recording of the women’s game, which showed the latter part of the cup presentation, was seeing Robertson lurking in the background. (I usually switch off the recording immediately a match ends)

            I think Ardern’s media presentation does have a lot to do with Ardern’s personal style. However, I have also wondered how much Robertson was in the background providing guidance. Media presentation is in his realm of past experience. And he is also a big Union fan.

            I had hoped that locker room PM attendance, and celebrity PM stuff, would have gone with Key. But it seems Ardern’s government is continuing this aspect of the neoliberal consensus, at the point when neoliberalism is passing its end date.

            I DO think the PM of the day should attend the matches, by sitting in the stands, in support of teams representing NZ. However, the celebrity locker room stuff does not fit with left wing values, IMO.

            • Wayne 5.2.1.1.1.1
              26 August 2018 at 10:34 am

              carolyn_nth

              To call a PM visit to the All Black locker room an example of “neoliberal consensus” is truly ridiculous.

              Sure, it was not done in the past, but that is because our society is more informal with more social media these days. Not neoliberalism.

              Modern PM’s are much more popular media driven than was the case, and the personalities who get the role reflect that. Evident with both Key and Ardern. Both are very different to Bolger or Clark, to take their precursor PM’s from both parties.

              The PM does after all have a degree in communications, so she knows exactly what popular expectations are. Most people will like the fact that she visited the guys in the dressing room. Another way of demonstrating her connectedness.

              • Tricledrown …
                26 August 2018 at 10:38 am

                At least she didn’t do a 3 way handshake.

              • Carolyn_Nth …
                26 August 2018 at 6:24 pm

                Sure, it was not done in the past, but that is because our society is more informal with more social media these days. Not neoliberalism.

                It’s a mixture of both neoliberalism, and the current state of communications technologies. The form social media, and media has taken in recent times, has been strongly guided, even at times controlled, by neoliberal principles.

                And the end result is the likes of Donald Trump gaining a very powerful political position, and current concerns about “fake news”. There’s too much spin and propaganda influencing voters, and this is very bad for democracy.

                So, we get some political leaders who are a bit nicer than Trump, or John key e.g. Obama and Ardern, but it does not fix the deep-seated structural problems, and it is a cause for concern about the future of democracy.

            • David Mac 5.2.1.1.1.2
              26 August 2018 at 10:50 am

              The Labour Party will be aiming to equal the National Party vote next time at the polls.

              There will be some on the left side of politics that won’t be happy to see Jacinda locker-room schmoozing. She doesn’t need to win their votes.

              • veutoviper …
                26 August 2018 at 11:42 am

                Jacinda was not only in the All Blacks locker room but also at the earlier Black Ferns match and in the locker room with the team. Earlier in the day she had spoken at the first NZ Rugby Women In Governance conference and made some pretty strong statements on the need for greater equality in the support etc of women’s rugby to that of men’s rugby.

                That is a ‘first’ for those many people who have been smarting at the male domination of the sport and related money distribution for many years. I really hope Ardern’s locker room attendance at both matches is seen in light of her statements in the morning and will not go amiss with too many people.

                What she said and links etc at 5.5 below.

        • Morrissey 5.2.1.2
          26 August 2018 at 10:14 am

          The Black Ferns/Wallaroo game was much more exciting.

          ????

          Rosemary, the score in the women’s game was even more lopsided than the men’s game. How exactly was it “much more exciting” than the men’s game?

          Both teams played with enthusiasm, competency and flair.

          Really? Both teams? Then why did one get thrashed?

          I am amazed at the speed and skill of women’s rugby, but to say that they are “more exciting” than the All Blacks is just ridiculous.

          • Carolyn_Nth 5.2.1.2.1
            26 August 2018 at 10:22 am

            I must say, at the point when I switched off the recording, I had thought the Black ferns were the likely winners as they seemed head and shoulders above the Wallaroos.

            (I record the Prime matches, and wait about 20 minutes after the game starts showing before watching, so I can FF through the ads).

          • mauī 5.2.1.2.2
            26 August 2018 at 10:39 am

            The women’s game is more dynamic and interesting have to say. When their star players are there its like watching the early days of Cullen and Lomu.

            While the men’s can be like watching an arm wrestle sometimes..

      • Morrissey 5.2.2
        26 August 2018 at 10:17 am

        Key was like an alien presence in the All Blacks’ dressing room. I suspect he was foisted on them by that horrible old Steve Hansen and that cheat non-pareil Richie McCaw.

      • NixSaved 5.2.3
        26 August 2018 at 11:44 pm

        This from New Zealand (reserve) Halfback TJ Perenara. “The values that she (Jacinda Ardern) stands by, and my family’s always been strong Labour and I’m proud to be strong Labour as well.” Its a rare thing to hear an All Black endorse the Labour party-especially a current player. (I believe Graeme Thorne and Tony Steel were All Blacks that were part of the National Party-even MP’s-at one stage.) I think Chris Laidlaw-former AB halfback-was part of the Labour Party once upon a time. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/tj-perenara-gave-all-blacks-jersey-jacinda-ardern-after-last-nights-test-before-snapping-photo-together

    • mauī 5.3
      26 August 2018 at 10:21 am

      Steve would rather the government spend money on a bidding war over pro sports players than a bidding war to keep medicines affordable for kiwis.

    • mauī 5.4
      26 August 2018 at 10:28 am

      Hes in a professional game with an amateur mindset, there’s nothing stopping him from selecting overseas All Blacks players earning tons of other peoples money.

    • veutoviper 5.5
      26 August 2018 at 11:06 am

      Rosemary, I did not see either of the two matches yesterday but late last night I did read a number of media reports on the the two matches. Jacinda Ardern attended both matches – AND also a conference earlier in the day, the first ever Women in Governance conference.

      At that conference she made some very relevant comments about rugby, reported by several media.

      From the RadioNZ report (almost all of it):

      Rugby needs to be more inclusive, particularly of women, to be fully deserving of the title of New Zealand’s national sport, the Prime Minister says.

      Talking to a packed conference room at New Zealand Rugby’s first ever Women in Governance Conference in central Auckland this morning, Jacinda Ardern said rugby needs to “be a game for everyone, and that includes women”.

      “For me if rugby is going to include us as women it should represent us equally, and have a relationship with us equally, both as players and spectators, and that means, as it does with every area of life, including women fairly, giving women the opportunity to excel, paying them appropriately, and providing leadership opportunities,” Ms Ardern said.

      Ms Ardern said, when asked for clarification, she believed rugby does currently deserve to be called New Zealand’s national sport, ” but with that title we need to make sure we’re striving to lift the outcomes for women in sport as well”.

      She was at the conference, articulating her vision for sporting gender equality, ahead of the Black Ferns and All Blacks double header against Australia at Eden Park tonight.

      She called on rugby to use its “power, influence and reach” to promote inclusiveness of and respect for women across New Zealand – not just in sport – and said she hoped for a day when women’s sport was just called sport.

      “[The Black Ferns] are incredible rugby players, they are incredible athletes, they are not incredible women rugby players, they are not incredible women athletes, they are just incredible rugby players and athletes,” Ms Ardern said.

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/364912/rugby-needs-to-be-more-inclusive-to-deserve-title-of-national-sport-pm

      There are also some good comments on the different way that male and female rugby is treated are also in this piece this morning on RNZ News.
      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/364950/eden-park-double-header-crowds-tries-and-the-pm

      In my view, I doubt that Ardern will give in to more money going the All Blacks’ way. If anything, she may well use her power to lever a much more equal distribution of any government money towards the Black Ferns. I understand that in the past Grant Robertson has also expressed similar views to the PM’s re the equality issue in relation to rugby.

      In a lighter vein the Black Ferns doing a haka for Ardern.

      • veutoviper 5.5.1
        26 August 2018 at 11:55 am

        And another related link I have just seen which gives more information about the Conference which was inaugurated and held by NZ Rugby.

        http://www.voxy.co.nz/sport/5/319206

        An excerpt:
        NZR Chair Brent Impey said: “The objective was to bring together women who hold governance roles across rugby to create a strong network of Directors and support the growth of more women in governance and leadership roles across rugby in New Zealand.”

        “The Board has prioritised diversity as part of its sucession planning and has already made important strategic commitments to women’s rugby including the appointment of former Black Ferns captain Dr Farah Palmer to the NZR Board, the appointment of NZR Head of Women’s Rugby Cate Sexton, increased funding for the women’s game, an historic first agreement that introduced professional contracts for Black Ferns, and a bid to host the 2021 Women’s Rugby World Cup.”

        Additional actions taken to date to grow the diversity at a governance level in rugby include the implementation of the Diversity Report, three women are now seconded onto NZR Board sub-committees, the Constitution has been changed to ensure at least one female is a member of the Board Appointments Panel, and the number of appointed board positions has increased from three to six.

        NZR Board Member Farah Palmer said: “NZR is committed to gender equity and is actively supporting the growth of women and girls through the Women’s Rugby Strategy.

        • Carolyn_Nth 5.5.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 12:16 pm

          Thanks, veuto. That’s very interesting.

          It’s also interesting that RNZ seems to have been the main media platform where that has been reported, while Stuff focused on Ardern at the ABs. It is dangerous to be playing the cooperate media game, albeit, trying to skew it in a different direction. I would rather see a whole different approach, away from neoliberal style propaganda, to an approach that fits more with left wing values.

          Women’s rugby has also been getting increasing coverage in the media, and now Prime seems to be showing their matches. When I set up to record the Black Ferns last night, was given the option to record the whole series of Black Ferns matches. This seems to be a new initiative from Prime.

          But also, I recall a public talk I attended recently by an Auckland Uni professor of politics (Jennifer Curtin), about Ardern’s representation and style as PM. The biggest take-away I got from the talk was in the area of policy. It’s something that’s going on a bit below the radar, and Ardern’s initiatives around women’s rugby fits with that.

          Apparently Ardern is requiring that all new policies and legislation include a gender component – ie include a report on how women’s concerns can be addressed with the policy/legislation.

          I will be interested to see more of how this works out. I’d also like to see something similar with respect to income and wealth inequalities included with all policies.

          • veutoviper 5.5.1.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 1:01 pm

            Carolyn I only did a quick search so did not necessarily pick up all items on JA’s attendance at the conference or at the Black Ferns match, but RNZ was not the only one to report the earlier engagements. There were more – eg TVNZ. Did see a photo of Jacinda with Kendra Cocksedge and Lorde after the BF game but that seems to have disappeared. There seem to be more media reports on the All Blacks game. As an aside, a pretty full Saturday for JA yesterday.

            I actually worked for a short time on a cross-government policy project with JA years ago when she was a fresh greenhorn in Helen Clark’s office and I was very impressed (as a much older woman) and convinced that she would eventually make it to where she is now. I just did not want to see it too soon, but I am really noticing her growing in the role.

            The approaches you mention in relation to policy are well in line with the depth and breadth of her thinking etc that I saw back then and I am sure that we will see her expand these requirements for consideration of gender to other inequalities such as income, wealth, disabilities. It may not be quick enough for some here and elsewhere but she also showed maturity back then – and does now imo – in realising that Rome was not built in a day and often mistakes, backlash etc can come with doing too much, too quickly.

            I was impressed with her statements etc re Curran on Friday and understand why she did not pull the plug completely at that time. There is an urgent review now underway into the appointment process for the CTO position Handley has applied for, and I suspect that if there is any hint whatsoever that Curran has muddied that, the hammer will fall again. There is a lot of steel in the Ardern psyche as well as compassion, equality etc. She is playing it careful on a lot of fronts in the situation.

            • Carolyn_Nth 5.5.1.1.1.1
              26 August 2018 at 6:31 pm

              I do understand that policy development is a a major strength of Ardern. However, i am still not clear on her underlying left wing values, or whether she is a soft neoliberal like Robertson. I would like to see Ardern ditch Robertson as one of her key advisors.

              But also, I am concerned that Curran still has the media portfolio. It seems to indicate that Ardern (and probably Robertson, too) don’t see the re-vitalisation of public service media as being urgent. And to me that is a major problem.

              But I will be watching where the policy and legislation direction goes with this government. It would be very good if it turned out Ardern is strongly left wing, and not a soft neoliberal centrist.

              • veutoviper …
                26 August 2018 at 7:12 pm

                Carolyn, I do see where you are coming from. But you also need to understand where Ardern is coming from and who are her besties within the Labour caucus/Cabinet.

                Her besties are Grant Robertson and Chris Hipkins, both of whom came into the parliamentary area of Labour with the common link between the three being Helen Clark. MS is probably much more knowledgeable of the relationships than I am. So I do not see her ditching Robertson – or Hipkins – as advisors.

                Re Curran, I have seen claims that Ardern and Curran have been flatmates in Wellington. I have no idea if this is correct but as I said at 5.5.1.1.1 I believe that Ardern is being a little cautious for employment law and other legal reasons so that if she has to pull the plug completely she is covered legally in doing so. As I said, I think she is quite capable of doing so.

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.5.2
        26 August 2018 at 12:07 pm

        I can report that the women’s game commanded just as much attention from the cosmopolitan company at the FFN RSA last night as did the blokes’ game.

        Being an earlier game the volume of ale consumed was low, and the informal commentary as a result was enthuastic and respectful.

        Not do much for the later showcase game, as the ‘arm wrestling’ in the first half led the assemblage to resort to discussing the Australian prime ministeral shennanigans.

        No booing from the RSA when Ardern went on the field to congratulate the Black Ferns.

  6. Morrissey 6
    26 August 2018 at 9:41 am

    The bumptious, barely articulate Greg Newbold stinks up the airwaves.
    The Panel, RNZ National, Wednesday 22 August 2018,
    Jim Mora, Joe Bennett, Rebekah White, Emil Donovan

    First topic for today’s program: the Crime and Justice Summit. Serious topic, and one which attracts some thoughtful and brilliant minds. Professor Greg Newbold was what Mora likes to call “the talent” in this discussion…..

    JIM MORA: Andrew Little’s Crime and Justice, uh, Summit looks, ah, set to recommend have fewer people in prison, you would infer, and the pulling of other levers, as the Prime Minister puts it, to both keep New Zealanders safe and better treat and rehabilitate those behind bars. And as we’ve discussed before, doing both at the same time will be the trick. But, Panelists, you are all for this?

    REBEKAH WHITE: I really—

    JOE BENNETT: All for what?

    REBEKAH WHITE: You go, Joe.

    JOE BENNETT: No sorry, I just want to clarify, what am I “all for”?

    JIM MORA: Okay. All for both the extra rehabilitative approach and getting prison numbers down.

    REBEKAH WHITE: Sounds great in theory. How do you DO that?

    JIM MORA: Yes, we do ask that as well.

    REBEKAH WHITE: Ha ha ha.

    JOE BENNETT: Heh, heh, heh, heh….

    MORA: Joe, do you have an opinion on it?

    JOE BENNETT:Ummm. I’m no criminologist. It’s, it’s, it’s very hard, isn’t it. Ummmm, the, I remember going to a prison once, visiting a prison, ahem, Christchurch Men’s Prison, um, for, with regards to some columns that I had written, and I went there a couple of times. And it was an appalling place. Ummm, just the bottled testosterone there, it bristled, it was, it was, you felt soiled and horrible and horrid to be there, and you couldn’t imagine that it was rehabilitative. Ah, but I remember the Governor there saying to me, and he had far more reason to know than I would, he said that only two things rehabilitated the inmates in his prison, and one was they got God, and the other one was they got the love of a good woman. And I throw that out there for what it’s worth, I can’t verify it, I can’t vindicate it, but he sounded as though he knew what he was talking about.

    MORA: Memorable.

    JOE BENNETT: Mmmm.

    MORA: Memorable. Criminologist, uh, Professor Greg Newbold isn’t at the Summit. We’ll seek his views on it shortly, but first actually we want to ask him something else from a listener. Greg, good afternoon.

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Hi. G’day.

    MORA: Here’s the question for you, ahh, first up, uh. “Jim, at this summit are lots of people with all sorts of ideas on how to reduce recidivism. Lots of them make a living from this sector. Has anyone sat down and asked the criminals and prisoners what their ideas are as to what would motivate them to change their behavior and their lives? Is there any research like this?” asks Chris Malcolm. Greg, what’s the answer? What do prisoners want, what do they think will work?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Aww, they wanna get outa jail. Mo– heh!— mosta them, ahhm, they would come up with ideas, they’re not criminologists, I mean, I was in jail myself, as you know—

    MORA: Mmmm.

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: —for five and a half years, and um, awww, everybody had different ideas about what they’d do when they got out. The problem was that a lot of guys in prison say, when they’re in jail, they say, Ohhh, I’ve ruined my life, I shouldn’ta done this and I shouldn’ta done that, and when I get out I’m not going to make the same mistake, and then they get out and make the same mistake. You got 86 per cent recidivism in New Zealand over five years. So, ahhhhmmm, y’know, what prisoners say and what they actually do are two different things.

    JOE BENNETT: Can I ask a question?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yeah. Please.

    JOE BENNETT: Is there anywhere in the world which has, say, half that recidivism rate?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Ah, no, not that I know of. The United States has got pretty much the same as us. Ummm, we’ve got a pretty high recidivism rate, I’ll tell you, the United States is around seventy-FIVE per cent—

    JOE BENNETT: What about Scandinavian countries?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yeah I mean people talk about Sweden and so on but you never see any real data from it. I went to a prison in Sweden once, and it was a pretty nice jail, but you know, you’ve got a different social situation and a different demographic makeup over there, so you can’t compare them. You’ve got to compare apples with apples.

    MORA: When you were IN jail—

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Mmm.

    MORA: —did you get an inkling of, if not what they wanted when they got out, which was to get out, but of what they needed, Greg, of what other fellow inmates needed to make them, ah, better citizens afterwards?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Ahhhh, not really, um. Most of the guys—I was in maximum security for most of my time—most of the guys up there had had horrific backgrounds, really terrible family backgrounds and childhoods, and that’s where the problem lay. A lot of them were very damaged before they came to prison and had histories of offending going back to when they were in school, absenteeism, neglectful parenting, abusive parenting, no parenting at all in some cases, and when you have a kid who’s been brought up in those circumstances, you’ve got a person who’s very very difficult to do anything with. It’s a problem which begins in childhood and is very difficult to turn around in adulthood. Quite often these guys wake up once they reach their forties and fifties, but between that age of seventeen to, say, 35 to 40 they can be pretty dangerous and pretty crazy.

    MORA: And I know there are intentions, I’m sure they were voiced at the summit today and yesterday, about turning it round far earlier on in life, and that’s been discussed a lot.

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Oh yeah.

    MORA: Anzac Wallace, at the Summit yesterday: “If we are 52 per cent of the prison population”—meaning Maori—“why aren’t we 52 per cent of the people speaking?” Is he right, that we need the Maori voice louder here, Greg?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Well it’s no good just having—just ’cause you’re a MAORI on, uh, on, on crime or prisons. Ahhhhmmm, so I don’t think, uh, ahh, ahh, y’know, there’ll be Maoris at that thing that have got backgrounds, but ah, um, it, that’s not going to solve a problem, having a whole lotta people speaking who don’t know what they’re talking about. Um, you got seven hundred people there, and most of them won’t have any real background in criminology or corrections at all, they’ll just be people who’ve got nothing better to do for two days.

    JOE BENNETT: Ha ha ha ha ha!

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: And you’ll have a big talk fest there, and everyone will come up with their own personal plans and bright ideas, but it’s not really going to make any difference.

    JOE BENNETT: If you were Minister of Corrections what would you do?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: This isn’t the first one, there’ve been heaps of these bloody summits in the past. The reason I’m not there is that I’ve been to so many, and that’s all they are, talk fests, and so I didn’t bother going, I’ve got better things to do.

    MORA: Were you invited, out of interest?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yeah yeah, I was invited to, uh, to, uh, apply to go up, which was essentially an invitation to go there, but I didn’t respond to it because I thought it would be a waste of time.

    JOE BENNETT: Can I ask a question? Greg, if you were suddenly appointed Minister of Corrections today, what would you do?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: I’d start building prisons.

    MORA: Seriously?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: I’d build a, I’d stop, uh, double bunking, and um, I’d set up a program for inmates who self-identify. A lot of prisoners aren’t really that interested in reforming, and I mean, where Maori are concerned, for example, 70 per cent are gang affiliated. Well, if you’re gang affiliated, um, then, uh, your chances of actually going on to a crime-free lifestyle when you get out are pretty limited. So I’d get guys who self-identify, who want to get out of gangs and don’t wanna go to jail, and I’d make things available to THEM, and the others I’d say, well get on with your lag and get out and good luck to you when you get out.

    MORA: One obvious question, and I mean, I don’t really want to get into the Scandinavian model again today, because we’ve talked about it a bit on the Panel but there ARE places overseas, and countries overseas, with lower recidivism rates than ours and, getting back to the original question that Chris asked about getting into the minds of prisoners, and it was interesting to hear your viewpoint on that, and also what Anzac Wallace said, uh, isn’t it necessary to get better acquainted with the minds of Maori prisoners if we’re going to get that terrifically high number of people in prison down?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Y-y-yeah, well they talk about the Maori mind, Corrections talk about it. I don’t think Maoris have got different minds than Pakehas, quite frankly. I know lots of Maoris, they don’t think any differently to me, I was in jail with them, we all thought the same. I don’t think there’s such a thing as a Maori mind. And, ummmm, as far as that, you know, these recidivist rates, you can’t compare them internationally because they don’t ha—, there’s no standard measure for recidivism. They have different criteria and different follow-up periods, and unless you have the same follow-up period and the same criteria, you can’t compare different countries with their recidivist rates because you’re comparing apples with pears.

    MORA: So you’re saying that when we hear about the success of individual overseas rehabilitative treatments, and someone says we’ve got the recidivism rate down from 49 per cent to seven per cent and measured that—

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Oh yeah, well they’re—BLOODY rubbish, absolute rubbish. AB-solute bloody nonsense. You look at that, you could look, I guarantee you, you give me that, that report and I’ll have a look at it, and I’ll find all the flaws in it. RUBBISH.

    MORA: Heeeee-e-e-e! [chortling] We’ll assemble them all and present them for your, um, perusal! Ha ha!

    JOE BENNETT: Ha ha!

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yeah yeah, give me—

    MORA: Okay—

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: I’ll critique the bloody lot.

    MORA: So you think nothing works. I mean, people are sending in ideas on the text, uh, “a low rate in Utah of recidivism, where prisoners are adopted by families.—Paul.” I mean, we hear all the time if you can connect prisoners with whanau for example more efficiently in prison, they are far less likely to go back to prison, so I mean, there’s a lot of pretty impressive anecdotage about this Greg.

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yeah it is, it’s all anecdotal, that’s all it is. You could get, y’know, I mean, they talk about, they talk about strengthening family ties, Christ, most of the guys in jail come from GANGS. If you, if you, heh heh, if you strengthen family ties, specially whanau ties with Maori, all you’re strengthening is the GANG association. So, um, y’know, ya gotta be pretty careful about what you’re talking about with your, with your, ahhm, when you, when you talk about strengthening whanau [chortling] whanau links. A lot of them come from intergenerational crime families [chortling]

    MORA: Well the same applies—

    REBEKAH WHITE: You go.

    MORA: Sorry Rebekah, I was just going to say the same applies to intergenerational Pakeha crime families you would think.

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, it does. It does, it does. And they—

    MORA: Rebekah you were going to say something.

    REBEKAH WHITE: Go.

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: But the Maori problem is particularly bad because whereas about 30 per cent of all inmates have gang association, where Maori’s concerned it’s SEVENTY per cent. It’s a HUGE problem.

    REBEKAH WHITE: So going back to those families and those associations, is there research around what kind of interventions are successful at, um, correcting the course of life that someone might be on?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Can you repeat that please?

    REBEKAH WHITE: So is there research around what kinds of interventions can be, um, carried out?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah yeah there’s a whole lot of Canadian—

    REBEKAH WHITE: What are the most effective ones?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yes there’s a whole lot of Canadians which have done this very complicated regression analysis and they’ve got these programs which they say work. See, the problem is that most programs, and Integrated Centre Management, which we adopted in New Zealand in 2002, tried to emulate it. But the problem is: most of these programs that work take place in highly structured laboratory type situations where they’re fully resourced, they’ve got specialist Ph.D.-qualified people applying them, and they do have some effect on some people. But you can’t apply that across the board in a prison population of a hundred—where you’ve got ten thousand five hundred people in prison.

    REBEKAH WHITE: So we haven’t researched this in New Zealand?

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, they TRIED it, they tried it with Integrated Centre Management, they tried to apply it. But they couldn’t apply it in the real world context. It’s okay to apply these things in a laboratory context but if you try and apply them in the real world they don’t work ‘cos you don’t have the resources. Unless you’re going to spend millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars, ahhhmm, you’re not going to succeed in these things. So you’ve gotta be realistic about it. In New Zealand the Integrated Centre Management program didn’t alter recidivism rates one bit.

    MORA: It’s interesting hearing the contrarian voice on this, from outside the Summit, as it were, Greg, but you’re painting a pretty grim picture of a New Zealand where our only successful strategy will be to build the mega-prison and lock more people away.

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: Yeah, well I think you’ve gotta, we’ve gotta improve prison conditions. I mean you can’t even HOPE to get the kinds of achievements, the kinds of outcomes that are desired if you’ve got people crowded up in multi-cell situations. I’m writing to a bloke at the moment who’s doing a degree at the private prison in Wiri and he’s having a hell of a lot of trouble studying because he’s got a cell-mate who wants to play the guitar all the time, while he’s trying to study. You know, if you’ve got, you do get people in prison who really do wanna get out and they’re taking realistic steps to stop themselves from reoffending, but if they’re stuck in an environment where achieving their goals is impossible, then they’re bashing their head against a wall.

    MORA: All right, understood, and thanks for your—

    PROFESSOR GREG NEWBOLD: We’ve gotta create good prisons, with plenty of room and well resourced, and the first thing you need to do is start building capacity.

    MORA: All right. Professor Greg Newbold, thank you for joining us today on The Panel.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018659262/will-justice-summit-achieve-anything

    • OnceWasTim 6.1
      26 August 2018 at 4:46 pm

      Greg N was always a bit of a priveledged right winger @ Morrissey.
      He probably should have spent his time studying gender and sexuality (not that he’s let his schooling interfere with his education in that regard).

      He has however been through a bit of near death experience in recent times. So I imagine that has made him even more grumpy towards his former peers who’ve not managed to make as much good as he has.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if an acceptable solution (in Greg’s mind) to recidivism would be to pump prisoners regularly with a dose of oestrogen

  7. Alan 7
    26 August 2018 at 9:45 am

    Don,t get too excited Cinny, i was there and she got booed by the crowd

    • Cinny 7.1
      26 August 2018 at 9:56 am

      reals? Lucky you Alan. hope you had a great night. Couldn’t hear any booing via the TV.

      • Bewildered 7.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 1:59 pm

        Can back that up Cinny sorry to pop your ballon there was clearly booing Really who cares rugby as the national game and its fans span across the political spectrum, Just enjoy the game for what it is

    • te reo putake 7.2
      26 August 2018 at 10:04 am

      I was in my local, a big sports bar. When the PM was on screen one of the kitchen staff grabbed another by the arm and pointed to the screen and yelled ‘Look, Jacinda!’

      If a few sad Tories in the crowd booed, it’s says nothing about how the rest of the country feels about Jacinda Ardern.

    • Morrissey 7.3
      26 August 2018 at 10:09 am

      Liar. She was cheered. The only politician to be booed at Eden Park was John Key.

      • Alan 7.3.1
        26 August 2018 at 10:28 am

        you weren’t there were you

        • Morrissey 7.3.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 10:44 am

          I’ve been to more football games than YOU, I would bet. I wasn’t there last night, no, but I know that most people there would have cheered for her. As everyone else here has attested, there was no audible booing for her, but there was applause for her.

          So there were a few National-voting drones and boors sitting near you—that’s your problem.

          • Ed 7.3.1.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 10:51 am

            Yes Alan and his mates booed.
            So that equates to the crowd booing.

          • Alan 7.3.1.1.2
            26 August 2018 at 10:59 am

            so you weren’,t there, confirmed

            • Morrissey 7.3.1.1.2.1
              26 August 2018 at 11:10 am

              What’s confirmed is that you live in your own little hateful world. Why did you boo her, by the way?

            • Bewildered 7.3.1.1.2.2
              26 August 2018 at 2:02 pm

              I was there and she was definitely booed, not to Len Brown or Jk standards late in his last term but definitely audible undertone of booing, sorry if any balloons popped

              • Incognito …
                26 August 2018 at 2:09 pm

                … but definitely audible undertone of booing …

                The funniest comment thus far!

                Was there also an “audible undertone” of “any balloons popped”?

              • Ed …
                26 August 2018 at 2:57 pm

                You must been sitting next to Alan and heard him.

    • Gabby 7.4
      26 August 2018 at 12:12 pm

      That was you wasn’t it Ally.

      • Ed 7.4.1
        26 August 2018 at 2:58 pm

        It may have been bewildered.

        • Bewildered 7.4.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 3:14 pm

          Nup not that exercised about Jacinda. Actually quite like her just not her politics Rugby fans span across the political spectrum. I find trying to claim a political victory from it fkn rediculous. It’s just Just fact there was no booing for jacinda at black ferns presentation but definitely booing but also cheering at ab presentation Most of it is light hearted so no need to get to exercised about it I also think it’s mostly about politics intruding into a national past time than any thing else

          And ed I doubt you ever watched a game of rugby in your life so with respect dear Fuck off back to your lentil patch and Galloway cat porn

          By the way Ed before game enjoyed a hearty few beers a big fat juicy steak 😀

  8. Morrissey 8
    26 August 2018 at 10:05 am

    Has Chris Trotter modified his brutal views in the last five years?

    I note that the leading philosopher Chris “Haw Haw” Trotter is contributing his two cents’ worth to the discussion about the Crime and Justice Summit.

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-summit-of-folly-why-middle-new.html

    We wonder if he has abandoned his support for Deep South lynch law….

    NOELLE McCARTHY: Now you have something about this Florida verdict, and Juror B-37?

    …A long, rambling discussion ensues, with most of the participants clearly disgusted with the verdict. But not everyone….

    CHRIS TROTTER: [very slowly, mustering all the pomp and gravitas he can] I think all this talk about the jury is most unfortunate. You have, even in this case I think, to trust the jury. In any trial, there are always items of evidence that we do not know about, even in this case I think.

    ….Long, extremely uncomfortable pause….

    NOELLE McCARTHY: [doggedly positive] One thing the whole world is talking about, Zoe Ferguson, is the royal birth!

    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/chris-trotter-reckons-zimmerman-jury.html

    • Sanctuary 8.1
      26 August 2018 at 10:27 am

      I have no idea what the fuck is going on in Trotter’s head these days. It seems he is absolutely convinced that there is some sort of bogeyman called “middle New Zealand” that is utterly reactionary, vindictive and constitutes some sort of impassive and monolithic electoral majority.

      Trotter is an ideological coward who is terrified at the thought of any reform that might upset his imaginary bogeyman who has crossed over to the territory occupied by out of touch and fearful old men.

      • Morrissey 8.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 11:18 am

        He’s a coward and a scoundrel. I’ll never forgive him for his expression of glee at the suffering of Julian Assange….

        https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/an-unusually-inane-and-depraved-edition.html

      • greywarshark 8.1.2
        26 August 2018 at 1:17 pm

        Sanctuary
        You don’t like Chris thinking about hard, uncaring middle NZ. Sounds like you might turn into one of their advocates.

        And same goes for Morrissey
        This blog shouldn’t be a place of attack on people who are airing the thinking of different groups in a way that you don’t agree with. Chris opens up subjects to discussion from differing viewpoints and should not be chastised for it. I don’t agree with all he says. But it is good to look at his opinions and have the right to disagree. I found this sort of carpet bombing when discussing anything that related to rape culture here.

        Just lay off the vicious attack stuff please. It doesn’t help in the effort to understand the mindsets of major players in our present society.

  9. Cinny 9
    26 August 2018 at 10:16 am

    With all the political news this week, I’ve forgotten to post something that is very dear to my heart.

    THANK YOU COALITION GOVERNMENT FOR MAKING GOOD ON A PROMISE.

    This news is huge and it brings so much hope to some very vulnerable girls and their families. Salisbury School saves lives.

    Salisbury School tips roll increase after Government announces wider access

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/106496222/salisbury-school-tips-roll-increase-after-government-announces-wider-access

    • The Chairman 9.1
      26 August 2018 at 10:54 am

      Speaking of schools.

      Corinna School in Waitangirua, Porirua is the first in New Zealand to be fully accredited as a living wage primary school.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106536924/meet-the-porirua-people-working-at-new-zealands-first-living-wage-primary-school

      • Nic the NZer 9.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 6:48 pm

        Christ the number of comments claiming schools must pay staff sub-acceptable wages are depressing.

        I especially liked that the school thought about it enough to setup how cleaners and janitorial staff could be included in that (by taking the cleaning contractor out of the picture). Of course the cleaning contractor would never have paid the living wage.

        • The Chairman 9.1.1.1
          27 August 2018 at 8:59 am

          “I especially liked that the school thought about it enough to setup how cleaners and janitorial staff could be included in that (by taking the cleaning contractor out of the picture).”

          Perhaps it will be something we will see other schools emulate.

          If the Government genuinely supported the Living Wage, no Government related (directly or indirectly) contract/tender would be considered unless companies vying for them paid a living wage.

    • veutoviper 9.2
      26 August 2018 at 11:22 am

      Fantastic, Cinny.

      I was thrilled when the new government moved quickly to lift the closure hammer from over the head of the school last December, and this news of the new direct-access pathway to enrolment should make things so much easier for families and lead to more eligible students being able to access this very special school.

      • greywarshark 9.2.1
        26 August 2018 at 1:15 pm

        Yes great news Cinny – so close to being sent down the road. Good, practical help to young females, such a good resource with experienced, caring people.

  10. joe90 10
    26 August 2018 at 11:25 am

    Loves Trump, hates POC, feminists, reproductive autonomy, and LGBTI folk, eugenicist, reckons the juntas of the past were the bomb, on a mission from Dog to save the country from socialism, and he could be Brazil’s next President.

    On the wall of Jair Bolsonaro’s office in a modernist annex of Brazil’s Congress hang five faded black-and-white portraits. They are memoirs of a time many Brazilians would prefer to forget, when military generals ruled the country from 1964 until 1985 and the cost of insurrection was kidnap, torture and secret execution.

    Bolsonaro, the de facto front runner for the Brazilian presidential election that begins on Oct. 7, is the foremost apologist for that era. He has made a career eulogizing its abuses and–for a decade after the return of democracy in 1989–calling for its reinstatement. Today he is proud of his support of the regime he served as an army captain.

    http://time.com/5375731/jair-bolsonaro/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jair_Bolsonaro#Political_views

    • dukeofurl 11.1
      26 August 2018 at 12:10 pm

      That was funny
      “It’s no accident that Bernie Sanders is from Vermont. Hope leftists like six-month winters.”

  12. greywarshark 12
    26 August 2018 at 1:11 pm

    Thinking of Denis O’Reilly a regular spokesperson about and for gangs in NZ and particularly Black Power. Here is a piece about him, The NZ Herald has often published about and with him.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11602653

    He has spiritual and humane thinking and also looks at how to bring these into policies and practices that take Maori out of the valley they are in to heights of personal achievement and satisfaction.

    I came to the Black Power as an act of community service.
    I had trained to be a priest and was imbued with the whole Paolo Friere South American liberation theology, social justice, worker-priest, servant-leader thing. When I presented myself at the door of the whare of the Black Power they accepted me unconditionally even though I am Pakeha. I experienced a sense of belonging, whanau, and unconditional love. I didn’t stop being anything – a son to my parents, brother to my siblings, a member of my faith, a Treaty partner, a committed New Zealander. Mind you, later, it has cost my whanau dearly in terms of being labelled and having suffered prejudicial treatment by officers of the Crown, especially the police.

    The greatest myth about gang life is that it’s all about crime. I can’t talk about all gangs but for the Maori gangs it is essentially an association that creates a sense of whanau as an antidote to social alienation….

    True leadership is a contextual concept and within that a behaviour. Take a natural exemplar, the kuaka or bartailed godwit, which at this very time of the year, is contemplating a long flight, in a flock, from Aotearoa back to China and the Siberian steppes. The lead bird, the kahukura, takes the brunt of the wind, but the dynamics of the overlapping wings in the flowing formation creates an updraught and the leader is buoyed.

    That’s a lovely notion that leadership is defined by followship, and the act of followship creates an uplift. After a time the kahukura drops back and another takes its place. So this intimates that we all have a responsibility at times to lead and at others to follow. As humans we all have feet of clay so I won’t curse someone by identifying them as a living embodiment of leadership but, as his spirit is still around us, could I nominate the late Dr Ranginui Walker as a kahukura exemplar?

    I think he has become ‘the apple of my eye’ after reading about his work.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12032153
    Denis O’Reilly offers solution to Hawke’s Bay apple picking crisis

    On the NZ Edge blog Denis has put up a few items of importance each year.
    There is a memoriam on the death of friend Ranga Tuhi. He was an artist and carver and this link shows some of his work.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoD_1PLGTLQ

    http://www.nzedge.com/news/
    NZ Edge.com
    The global life of NZ
    Aotearoa Whanau Whanui Ki Te Ao Nui

  14. marty mars 14
    26 August 2018 at 1:20 pm

    RIP John McCain. You were who you were and whilst we hardly agreed I wish you well on your journey.

    • One Two 14.1
      26 August 2018 at 2:32 pm

      Your comments are often less than flattering to commentators here , MM…

      McCain is responsible for an unfathomable amount of human misery….

      • marty mars 14.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 3:48 pm

        Looked in the mirror lately?

        • McFlock 14.1.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 4:09 pm

          [whispers] there is no mirror…

        • One Two 14.1.1.2
          26 August 2018 at 7:26 pm

          No mirror required for self reflection, Marty…

          Less than flattering was an understatement, in case you didn’t pick that up…

          So in being abusive to others here, yet well wishing to JM for his journey…confused ?

          • marty mars 14.1.1.2.1
            26 August 2018 at 8:00 pm

            So you fall again. Try to keep your eyes open for the obvious next time eh?

            • One Two 14.1.1.2.1.1
              26 August 2018 at 8:34 pm

              I did consider the eulogy to JM may have been sarcasm…but there was no conclusive evidence in your initial comment, or follow up to mine…

              Was it sarcasm ?

              • marty mars …
                26 August 2018 at 8:36 pm

                Fail again. Not good enough. End.

                • One Two …
                  26 August 2018 at 10:03 pm

                  Brilliant, Marty…Nothing to learn here…

                  • marty mars …
                    26 August 2018 at 10:08 pm

                    Sadly you’re not ready to learn – that’s a question you should ask yourself – why the self sabotage? When you remember the answer come back for the second lesson. Let go of ego – you know you can – remember?

                    • One Two …
                      26 August 2018 at 10:16 pm

                      Marty, your comments in this specific exchange tell a very clear tale…

                      See if you can learn about yourself…as I have done…through your commentary over the years…

                      We’re all at various stages of our journeys…different levels…different understandings…

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2018 at 10:39 pm

                      Indeed we are. Most of us get out of the “pretentious pseudo-gnostic arse” stage of the journey by our early twenties.

                      I remember stoners saying “red pill or blue pill” and “there is no spoon” when the movie was first released. Must be a retro movie that pretentious hipster teen stoners watch these days lol

                    • marty mars …
                      27 August 2018 at 10:14 am

                      Oney you have much to learn – sorta remind me of a much younger me – ha – the road will not rise until you fall – get it now? You seem a bit stuck on this – try your breathing exercises after all that’s what they are there for. Focus on the rise and fall – hopefully things will move for you now – keep at it.

    • joe90 14.2
      26 August 2018 at 2:32 pm

      Vale John McCain.

      Interesting thread.

      I have written many critical things over the years about @SenJohnMcCain; you can easily find them. But not in this thread. Instead, I wanted to share a few observations of possible interest that I’ve accumulated over the years following this fascinating American character. 1/— Matt Welch (@MattWelch) August 25, 2018

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1033152993649209344.html

    • McFlock 14.3
      26 August 2018 at 4:27 pm

      He was a man of integrity and respect.

      He also disagreed with people without painting them as evil or whatever. He could agree to disagree, without treating the other person or the issue flippantly.

      He was a conservative, but not to the point of being corruptly partisan. And he had gravity and dignity.

      I wouldn’t want to be exactly like him, but he did have a few qualities we can’t go too far wrong cultivating in ourselves or our leaders.

      • David Mac 14.3.1
        26 August 2018 at 7:33 pm

        I agree McFlock, unlike many from his side he didn’t seem primarily motivated by the $. I believe in his own way he was out to create a better world and if we all felt that way, regardless of our political stripe, we’d end up with something half decent.

      • RedLogix 14.3.2
        26 August 2018 at 7:58 pm

        Well expressed McFlock.

        Any radical can convince those who already agree with them; the mark of a truly effective politician is persuading those who might normally oppose you.

        • joe90 14.3.2.1
          26 August 2018 at 8:09 pm

          The saltiest obit you’re likely to to ever read.

          http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/08/mccain

          • McFlock 14.3.2.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 8:37 pm

            Yeah, there’s a lot in that which is true.

            But some of it is a bit harsh – he didn’t just “not go along with the worst” of the anti-Obama stuff, he publicly opposed it. A Republican having an interest in foreign policy is quite exceptional these days. Putting more troops into Iraq initially might have actually enabled them to maintain order and stop the decay into sectarian violence (although there were many other issues, not just numbers. The yanks had the mindset to win the war, but winning the peace wasn’t ever on their radar).

            But, yeah – he wasn’t all good. He was a conservative, after all.

  15. adam 15
    26 August 2018 at 1:20 pm

    Shame I liked John, for a right wing politician he was always gave us a bit of a giggle. He did bring us the laugh factory that was Sarah Palin. And his attacks by trump were at times, priceless in their comedic effect.

    Rest in peace John.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/us-senator-john-mccain-dies

  17. Bewildered 17
    26 August 2018 at 5:41 pm

    For my dear friend Morrissey and other conspiracy theorist on Venezuela and socialism from the economist

    “Mr Maduro says this is the fault of “imperialist” powers like America, which are waging “economic war” on Venezuela. In fact, the catastrophe is caused by the crackpot socialism introduced by Hugo Chávez and continued by Mr Maduro after Chávez’s death in 2013. Expropriations and price controls have undermined private firms, depressing production. Corruption has subverted the state. Mismanagement of PDVSA, the state-owned oil company, has caused oil output to drop by half since 2014. Just as the regime has asphyxiated democracy, by rigging elections and governing without reference to the opposition-controlled legislature, so it has strangled the economy”

    • David Mac 17.1
      26 August 2018 at 7:48 pm

      John Key couldn’t of saved Venezuela. Chavez chucked Maduro a hospital pass and up and died.

      What we’re seeing in Venezuela is not a model of left vs right politics. It a tragic scene brought on by fairweather loaning greedy men with scant regard for the future or their responsibilities.

      People like this come from all walks of life. No matter if it’s a politician milking a cash cow until it’s dead or a BOP orchardist hiring a gang of Tongan slaves. Assholes come in all colours.

      • Bewildered 17.1.1
        26 August 2018 at 8:19 pm

        Tend to agree David Mac but Venezuela never less is one of a long list of countries who have applied socialism in regard to nationalisation of the means of production that has led to misery and gross human rights abuse I do agree adopting socialist policies but maintaining a capitalist economy is a different story But surely now any pretext to full on socialism, communism is totally discredited but some in nz and on this site incredibly still back it

        • Ed 17.1.1.1
          26 August 2018 at 8:31 pm

          For and different perspective, independent of the corporate media.

          • Bewildered 17.1.1.1.1
            26 August 2018 at 9:28 pm

            Not sure RT acolyte is a step up on so called corporate media I gave it 10 minutes just got silly capitalism this, neo liberalism that ( yawn) I believe The Economist has more credibility as an independent voice

            • adam 17.1.1.1.1.1
              26 August 2018 at 10:00 pm

              ” I believe The Economist has more credibility as an independent voice”

              That would make you a useful idiot then. There are so many who haunt this site.

            • Morrissey 17.1.1.1.1.2
              27 August 2018 at 12:13 pm

              Idiot. You know nothing.

        • David Mac 17.1.1.2
          26 August 2018 at 8:37 pm

          I think we’re essentially socialists here in NZ bewildered. In it’s rawest form: I believe in you and what is important to you and in return you do the same for me.

          Nice.

          I think this has come about for a wide range of reasons. Starting with trying to scratch out livings in land that belonged to people that quite liked eating us. Moving on to the lording mine owners with sensational British Navy purchase orders that wanted to create a little Britain on the westcoast.

          We’ve got plenty of reasons to have socialist roots.

          I think the left have lost their way a bit….I’m old, I pine for the old days….You used to be able to tell you were meeting a man from the left from the callouses in his handshake, these days leftishness is determined with the speed that a racist can be identified.

          I think being left is about aspiring to see a fair go for everyone. Far from what we see in Venezuela and I think it’s an aspiration most Kiwis would subscribe to.

    • Morrissey 17.2
      27 August 2018 at 12:22 pm

      “Conspiracy theorist”? That’s exactly what that dolt Key and his doltish cronies called Nicky Hager.

      I presume you will provide something to support your claim that I am a conspiracy theorist. If you fail to do so, you have furnished us with yet more evidence that you do not have a clue about anything.

  18. Ed 18
    26 August 2018 at 7:07 pm

    Thought provoking stuff, as ever , from Craig Murray.

    “Air transport is simply far too cheap for the damage it causes and the resources it consumes. You cannot cause more damage to the Earth’s atmosphere with £30 worth of resources, than by buying a £30 Ryanair ticket to Barcelona. If you spend that £30 on fuel for your diesel car, or on coal and burn it in your garden, you will not come close to the damage caused by your share of emissions on that Ryanair flight.

    The fundamental reason air travel has expanded to be so harmful is the international understanding that tax and duty is not charged on aviation fuel – unlike vehicle, train or maritime fuel. Even citizens of Saudi Arabia or Venezuela no longer can access fuel as cheaply as you do in effect when you fly.

    ….The question has become mixed with notions of democratisation of leisure. This should be tackled head on. There is no human right to go by air and have a sun soaked holiday on the Med dirt cheap. The Earth cannot afford to indulge the pollution caused by massive air tourism. The unpopularity of saying this means that few people in politics ever do, but it is nonetheless true. In view of climate change, for the public to expect Ryanair fare levels is obscene.

    Mass air travel for leisure needs to be stopped. Maritime, rail and other more eco-friendly means of international communication need to be encouraged. As mankind has not even the political will to tackle these most straightforward of measures on climate change, I really do begin to despair for the future.”

    Read it all here.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/time-to-end-cheap-flights/

    • David Mac 18.1
      26 August 2018 at 8:11 pm

      The person spending their £30 Barcelona ticket money on diesel for their car may well be creating way fewer nasties but their drive is going to fall way short of Ibiza.

      I like our Pacific Islands, I like visiting them. I’d sail there.

      Last time in the UK I was passing through. The bus transfer, Heathrow to Luton, about 35 kms? was 22 pounds. The Easyjet flight to Amsterdam was 16 pounds.

      I can’t think of anything that has been less subjected to inflation than air travel. I went to Sydney with some mates in the late 70’s. For us to go again tomorrow, the tickets are about the same price. If air travel had been subjected to the same inflationary forces as houses, taxi rides, beer, shoes and speedboats it would cost us $20k to get to Sydney and back.

    • joe90 18.2
      26 August 2018 at 8:43 pm

      According to Mr Google, London to Barcelona air and road is about the same distance and a short haul Airbus A319Neo would burn 1.93 L/100 km/passenger.

      VOLKSWAGEN Golf Estate diesel would burn around 5 L/100 km.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Short-haul_flights

      http://www.fuelmileage.co.uk/list-manufacturers/VOLKSWAGEN

      • Ed 18.2.1
        26 August 2018 at 9:02 pm

        Well researched.
        Thank you.

      • Bill 18.2.2
        26 August 2018 at 10:41 pm

        The point is that you ain’t gonna jump in that there “Golf” and pop down to Barcelona for a long weekend. So the fuel comparisons are a bit pointless.

  21. corodale 21
    27 August 2018 at 1:19 am

    Look how the bears are celebrating sep11.
    When the Mongolians are participating, ya know things are humming.
    https://themoscowtimes.com/news/russia-prepares-largest-war-games-since-1981-with-combat-readiness-drills-62576

  22. eco maori 22
    27 August 2018 at 8:46 am

    Good evening The Am Show Myanmar should be shamed into treating there people with humane care 2 wrongs don’t make it right San Suu Kyi has to be pressured into see reality that the world does not like the way people.
    I think we should give some support to the AllBlacks we have to compete with nations that have huge audiences couch has seen the money on offer for our players getting out of hand .
    That’s the problem in Amecia the goverment has to protect its people before its business interest.
    Ka kite ano P,S one reason one should have good manners with that ladys interdict with Nassa

  23. eco maori 23
    27 August 2018 at 9:57 am

    Here you go 1 million electric cars sold in Europe ka pai Norway know’s a good thing when they see it clean cheap to run low maintenance electric vehicles link is below ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/26/electric-cars-exceed-1m-in-europe-as-sales-soar-by-more-than-40-per-cent#top.

  24. Morrissey 24
    27 August 2018 at 12:16 pm

    Talk about inappropriate! I wonder what the great Theodore Dalrymple
    would say if he realized he’d been cited by Stephen Franks.

    Who said satire is dead?

    http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/theodore-dalrymple-profiles-a-notable-nz-murderer/comment-page-1/#comment-901474

    • eco moari 24.1
      27 August 2018 at 5:17 pm

      Muppetissey I warned your sandfly m8 that every time they throw there lies and corruption at Eco Maori it will burn there—— and what I have said has come true you and the sandflies are out of your League so shooo away ana to kai

  25. eco moari 25
    27 August 2018 at 6:44 pm

    Good evening Newshub If some one is cutting hole’s in my waka and causing a massif leaks I would find the person and throw them out and that’s what Simon is doing .
    That’s real shocking what’s happening in Myanmar these people who are causing this un humane disaster should sort there —– and help there tangata whenua out.
    That dental trainee campus in Auckland that will provide half price dental care is awesome many thanks to Otago university.
    Yes I believe that te mokopuna’s time on computers should be moderated and controlled they need sleep so they can learn at school I would buy learning games for my tamariki half of them did not work my tamariki are all competent computer users now thought .
    Well said Ted Ka kite ano

  26. eco moari 26
    27 August 2018 at 7:21 pm

    The Crowd Goes Wild James & Mulls You are correct Mulls Lisa is one of the greatest athlete’s of Aotearoa ka pai.
    Australia need to revamp the local Rugby game copy others embrace there tangata whenua players is what I say they should do I have heard that its hard to find a Rugby Union competition in some places.
    You know your long in the tooth when te tangata are retiring and they are the same age as ones tamiriki ka pai Simon.
    All the best to the Tuatara .
    Should have known you are a Westie James Ka kite ano

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