Open Mike 26/11/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:58 am, November 26th, 2018 - 158 comments
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158 comments on “Open Mike 26/11/2018”

  1. Ed 1
    26 November 2018 at 6:20 am

    Time for New Zealand to assert its independence from foreign superpowers.

    “Twenty-nine academics, researchers and human rights advocates have written an open letter to Jacinda Ardern in support of China critic and Canterbury University politics professor Anne-Marie Brady.
    “We have been shocked and disturbed by the reports of intimidation and harassment suffered by Professor Anne-Marie Brady,” the letter said.
    “Attempts to intimidate and harass one academic in New Zealand have implications for freedoms of all the others – and indeed, for the freedoms of all who live here.”
    The group also urged the prime minister to “make a clear statement in defence of academic freedom” in light of the case and to be “very clear that any intimidation and threats aimed at silencing academic voices in this country will not be tolerated”.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/376782/shocked-and-disturbed-by-alleged-chinese-govt-intimidaiton

    • Dennis Frank 1.1
      26 November 2018 at 7:49 am

      Damn right. Prof Brady: “The Education Act requires all political leaders and government agencies to protect and defend our academic freedom and uphold the critic and conscience role of the academic. So I do my job, and I expect the government to do their job.”

      A spokesperson for the prime minister said she supported and defended the legal right to academic freedom, as set out in law. “The matters contained in this letter are under investigation by the police and it is not appropriate to comment on them before the investigation is finished.” But Prof Brady said the investigation was over, and the issue was now in the government’s hands. [RNZ]

      So another Schrodinger’s Cat situation. The police investigation is over and is not over simultaneously. Truth lies somewhere between the two? Could be the PM’s spokesperson is misrepresenting the situation?

      Perhaps someone will open the box and report whether the Cat is really alive or dead. And if the truth is that a police report must be written and obtained by the PM before the truth can be ascertained by her, the slowly-grinding wheels of public service bureaucracy will probably ensure that she goes to the xmas break none the wiser. Her relief at not having to do her job will probably be considerable! Will Chinese agents successfully eliminate Professor Brady while we wait?

    • cleangreen 1.2
      26 November 2018 at 8:40 am

      Yes I agree Parliament needs to be cleanned up pronto!!!!!

      Fix the beehive and get rid of the National party clingon’s Jacinda Ardern firstly please.

      These “anti-Government sypathisers are stopping your voters from communication with your Government ministers.

      This we have discovered during our research.

      So if you want “inclusion” in your Government please remove all National Party sympathizers from being in MP,s offices and in Government agencies.

  2. Ad 2
    26 November 2018 at 6:21 am

    Great to see Labor absolutely creaming the Liberals in Victoria on the weekend.

    Not long before they clean them out in next years Federal elections.

    • cleangreen 2.1
      26 November 2018 at 10:21 am

      Good news Ad.

    • ScottGN 2.2
      26 November 2018 at 12:49 pm

      Andrews actually went into the campaign beset by a number of controversies in his Victorian Labor Party but voters seem to have responded to his plans for major infrastructure spending across the state. And of course, all those Labor campaign billboards of state Liberal leader Guy hanging out with Peter Dutton, Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison helped.

  3. WeTheBleeple 3
    26 November 2018 at 6:57 am

    Wastewater being dumped in the ocean is still an issue, and now AK’s richer tenants are making noise, something might get done.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12165591

    There is a new game in town. Well, in America. Combining both waste and storm water for treatment, treated waters are redirected to spreading basins where they can percolate into the land and recharge aquifers.

    https://phys.org/news/2017-08-tool-parched-regions-replenish-aquifers.html

    While these methods are land intensive, they bring up some points worth noting.

    We have done nothing towards recharging aquifers, despite corporate entities showing it is liquid gold.

    2. We have significant wastewater resources in both rural and urban settings that contain revenue streams, we have not tapped these, namely: water for irrigation, composts for agriculture, biogas for power.

    The resources are right there waiting for some government body to wake up. NZ water revenue should be returned, 100%, to NZ. The revenue generated can pay for improvements to water treatment and storm water diversion. Here we need to think big, but on a catchment by catchment basis.

    In 2017 391 billion litres of bottled water were sold.

    Billions, that’s what we are giving away. Take it back and get NZ on track.

    • Robert Guyton 3.1
      26 November 2018 at 7:29 am

      There is an aquifer-recharge project being “scoped” in Southland, at Five Rivers, where it is proposed river water be “directed” into a depleted aquifer. In theory, the water will be taken at high flow, but I’ve concerns about the mixing of previously seperate “waters”, especially in light of their bacterial (and nitrogenous) make-up; natural filtering and time can clean surface water before it gets into an aquifer and this “direct injection” through reverse bore, will result in an “unnatural” introduction of pathogens, potentially. Of course, it may be that there’s no problem, but if successful there, other farming operations might see potential to fill their own aquifers with flood water, say, and be able to irrigate at a greater rate and thereby, intensify their farming operations. Mike Joy wouldn’t be a supporter, I’m guessing. I know there’s a lot of natural river/aquifer interaction in many cases, but it seems to me these geo-engineering jobs don’t always pan out well (if ever). All in my opinion, naturally 🙂

      • Kevin 3.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 3:21 pm

        Seems like insanity to me Robert.

        Aquifers are generally pristine for the very reason that it takes a very long time for water to filter down to them.

    • Robert Guyton 3.2
      26 November 2018 at 7:33 am

      “Spreading basins” could be elegant…or revolting. The American feed lots for cattle show how appalling some of their “great ideas” can be.

      • WeTheBleeple 3.2.1
        26 November 2018 at 8:21 am

        Wetlands are spreading basins. They could also be for tourism, aquaculture, ornithology, duck season, boating, walking, education…

        The idea of topping aquifers from river flow is insane. We get our highly polluted shit and run it into our pristine sources. Then our potential for $ per litre goes down to parts of a cent per litre for shitty irrigation. How is that a good thing?

        We need to stop falling over ourselves to accommodate farmers. Why build such an obviously shitty system? Farmers… that’s all.

        Farmers should be playing a large part in recharging groundwater, but no, they merely take it. Imagine if we were to do something as simple as put floodgates at storm culverts letting the drainage systems of the country fill before overflowing (same flow capacity as it is governed by diameter of pipes under roads). All of a sudden the entire countryside is holding and percolating water after storm events. And that’s just getting started. Add swales and ponds…

        Those stormwater drains, it makes no difference if they’re full or empty, except, when full they replenish the land, and are vast potential aquaculture infrastructure.

        Who is it ‘scoping’ five rivers? They need a boot up the ass.

        • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 8:38 am

          Well now, I couldn’t have said it like that, could I 🙂
          Because there was such a hue and cry about “visible” dammed/damned water storage proposed by farmers in, especially North Canterbury, the industry has looked for hidden opportunities and aquifer recharge occurred to them. Have you done any work on the biology of aquifers? There’s living creatures down in them cold, dark waters! They probably won’t enjoy a dose of what their surface-dwelling cousins have to put up with .

          • WeTheBleeple 3.2.1.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 8:40 am

            A subterranean cave was explored by Charles Mitchell and some peers. They discovered sixty year old kokopu that had no food source. They’d lived purely through minerals ingested from water. Blind, albino kokopu.

            • WeTheBleeple 3.2.1.1.1.1
              26 November 2018 at 8:48 am

              One ‘silly idea’ I’ve had for Canterbury is to follow the Hawaiian example and run a tunnel through the mountain range taking west coast excess water to Canterbury.

              Who was opposed to water bodies in Canterbury? Was it a large dam, or on farm ponds? I reckon turning the region into a monoculture desert is ugly enough, and ponds and plantings would improve the place. But what do I know.

              • Robert Guyton …
                26 November 2018 at 10:07 am

                Ponds and plantings, yes, but the driver was increased intensification of dairying. Jaded greenies kicked up a stink 🙂

              • DJ Ward …
                26 November 2018 at 10:27 am

                You have pretty much covered the solution.

                Years ago “think big style” with electricity it was decided to redirect high flow water going into other waterway systems into the Taupo water system. So it’s gravitational potential energy could best be utilised.

                There is no reason why your idea, that has been proposed for many rears, cannot be a reality.
                Tunnel boring machines in the 1meter diameter range are cheap and you could create a little team of people running a site, creating a tube from one side to the other. The rock waste can be used in civil engineering.

                If a big earthquake happens and the tube gets ruined, you accept it as part of reality, you then go in and fix it.

                Making farms more productive because of water supply, because they become more drought resistant, or crops get water at the correct time of their life cycle. When farmland produces more from increasing the efficient use of sunlight everything is a benifit.

                They absorb more CO2.
                The farms Eco systems benifit.
                If the farm is more efficient, profitable, it can invest in projects were fence to drain distances increase, a small area of trees and a wetland can be added, etc.
                They can invest in environmental solutions. A farm of 100Ha doing mainstream farming can decide to try a few Ha in some radical new way, with the intent of lowering urea use, or improving production due to animal health benifits rather than off farm inputs. Diets creating less methane, plants that result in less nitrate leaching, etc etc.

                The no to everything for farming is the wrong approach, and bringing water from the west coast as part of solving water issues should have happened decades ago.

                Auckland city steals the Wiakato systems water for example. That happened because it was a good idea.

                • OnceWasTim …
                  26 November 2018 at 3:01 pm

                  Are you on the turn @DJ?
                  Not too many days/weeks ago, you were coming in here as just another pompous trolling git.
                  These days……reading your thoughts and contributions is worthwhile

                  • greywarshark …
                    26 November 2018 at 6:53 pm

                    I saw something interesting by DJ the other day. Looked like real thought and not knee jerk stuff. Mmmm. You can’t be sure about anything these days. Grizzle.

            • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1.1.2
              26 November 2018 at 10:05 am

              That’s too far-fetched for me to believe 🙂
              That said, we discovered a dog who’d been trapped in a glasshouse for 6 weeks over winter (hail and snow) without food, seemingly, who lived, though very thin (she went in plump). Curiously, there was no dog poo on the ground 🙂

    • cleangreen 3.3
      26 November 2018 at 9:06 am

      100% WeTheBleeple

      Labour promised to stop water bottling before the election remember that!

      How quickly people forget?

      Labour need to review their broken promises and explain why these promises have not been kept here before the end of this year.

      As a careful thought review of their performance in their first year of service to the community.

      Those promises all need to be kept.

      • WeTheBleeple 3.3.1
        26 November 2018 at 9:15 am

        Obscene profits being made (taken off NZ for private concerns).

        A rich asshole I know was jizzing over these profits a decade ago as National came in. The Nats and their donors were in there like a shark feeding frenzy.

        • cleangreen 3.3.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 10:27 am

          Yes wethebleeple

          “Money talks truth walks” is these rich lazy pricks only thought.

          No care for well being of the community.

          Toxic Leeches they all are.

        • cleangreen 3.3.1.2
          26 November 2018 at 10:31 am

          Yes wethebleeple

          “Money talks truth walks” is these rich lazy pricks only thought.

          No care for well being of the community.

          Toxic Leeches they all are.

          Labour had better send them away in a leaky boat.

      • McFlock 3.3.2
        26 November 2018 at 10:08 am

        Labour promised to stop water bottling before the election remember that!

        Nope.
        I do remember a policy to do a commercial water levy. NZ1 scotched that.

    • Herodotus 3.4
      26 November 2018 at 9:45 am

      We have the Central Inceptor at a cost of $1.2b
      Yet in a time of where “user Pays” still exists where greenfield developments have to provide infrastructure at the cost of the new locals and when these developments will have additional rates applied to pay for their infrastructure https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12159099
      https://www.watercare.co.nz/About-us/News-media/Central-Interceptor-one-step-closer-to-start-date
      Why do these wealthy inner city areas expect the rest of Auckland to pay for solutions to THEIR waste water issues ?
      They already have the best public transport service available, subsidised by all rate payers. And as they are increasingly serviced e.g. new rail link, the value of their properties increase, yet they make no additional contributions for this.

      • WeTheBleeple 3.4.1
        26 November 2018 at 10:03 am

        Thanks for that heads up.

        “During wet weather the central wastewater network currently overflows to local waterways and the Waitematā Harbour at more than 100 locations and to the north-eastern Manukau Harbour at 14 locations. The Central Interceptor is expected to reduce the volume of overflows by over 80 per cent.”

        Sounds really good. Not comprehensive but it is a large improvement.

        I’m guessing actinobacteria are still the major issue in biological treatment (clumping), however, am very pleased they’ve not gone the silly chemical sanitation route, which produces treated yet unusable water. The clumping could be used for solids removal and processing as solid compost making the water treatment a lot easier. I’ve seen similar on a farm where solids were taken out before effluent ponding, the solids becoming compost. The Farmer could not get enough of the compost though it sat for a year and let the worms have at it to finish.

        The composts from these processes can then feed non-edible crops to make them removed from human consumption/western sensibilities e.g. timber crops.

      • SaveNZ 3.4.2
        26 November 2018 at 12:55 pm

        Exactly Herodotus, are the developers in particular those that are contributing the most to wastewater pollution with large high rises, are not being charged a new levy for ‘user pays’ with new builds for pollution and wastewater, as because as you rightly say, they are also getting the cream of public transport money too.

        And often the inner city apartments are not good options for Kiwi families who sound like they are one of the poorest demographics now. But new builds and in particular apartments are open to be speculated on by the world’s wealthy as they are exempt from the OIA.

        Meanwhile the poor on the outer city limits with no or few public transport options are forced to pay the petrol tax that the mostly inner/central city folks are largely exempted from for commuting to work or university.

        Of course getting to the airport is a priority for work and holidays which is why that is PRIORITY number one for public transport. We can’t let the politicians get stuck in traffic going to Wellington or Phil Goff’s trip to China or expect them to pay an airline levy for the public transport link that Auckland ratepayers are expected to pay for.

        • SaveNZ 3.4.2.1
          26 November 2018 at 1:17 pm

          Rampant development around beaches and more and more run off from roads are having a horrible effect.

          Long Bay (rampant development) was the only beach to experience a more extreme red alert last summer with a reading of 810 enterococci/100ml taken on New Year’s Day after heavy rainfall.

          Apparently…

          “Recent historical data for the water quality of our swimming beaches is not available for comparison.

          North Shore City Council stopped routine monitoring in 2008 because it was confident of its ability to identify water quality issues after analysing the previous 10 years worth of data.

          Auckland Council resumed water quality testing on the North Shore last November because it felt there was an inconsistent approach to water safety across the city.”

          • SaveNZ 3.4.2.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 1:19 pm

            I think the shell fish has also been effected around Long Bay regional park area, but any media about the pollution is quickly pulled. The developer seems to be able to keep it out of the media, surprise surprise.

            • SaveNZ 3.4.2.1.1.1
              26 November 2018 at 1:22 pm

              Dirty water: Raw sewage flowing into Auckland Harbour will increase with new housing projects

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11785299

              P>S> hope those that once believed that the new housing was necessary for affordable housing for Kiwis, are now able to comprehend that allowing new builds to be sold and speculated around the world, firmly puts a stop to that idea and they are instead a way to do a Natz and keep the lazy economy moving within the Ponzi, while making the Kiwis who are rate payers pay for it and the residents and future generations pay for it with increased pollution and loss of quality of life, and new charges being dreamed up, for anything from petrol to wastewater around the city .

            • WeTheBleeple 3.4.2.1.1.2
              26 November 2018 at 3:57 pm

              I can affirm that (Long Bay) having heard it directly from a marine biologist investigating the site.

              • WeTheBleeple …
                26 November 2018 at 3:59 pm

                If we use this new diversion drain (central interceptor), AND capture roof water for gardens, we might actually cope in Auckland. Road runoff could be diverted more creatively too. Some to wetlands, some to industry…

  4. Cinny 4
    26 November 2018 at 7:50 am

    Took the girls to the Santa Parade over in Richmond yesterday.

    What kind of flag is that mum? They asked as a ‘redneck’ float went past.

    That’s the confederate flag, it’s a symbol of white people using black people for slaves in the USA.

    Woah, why is it in the parade mum?

    Because, it was on the roof of a popular ‘redneck’ race car in a 1980’s TV series, which made a whole generation relate that flag to nothing else but two men and a Chrysler.

    Some might say people are going PC mad, others might say we need to learn about real history rather than the Dukes of Hazard.

    Was wondering if anyone else noticed….. looks like they did…PS the beer cans were tacky as.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/108856953/richmond-santa-parade-features-redneck-xmas-float-sporting-confederate-flag

    • mauī 4.1
      26 November 2018 at 8:21 am

      That is so bad, its supposed to be about the kids!

      What idiot would think, I know let’s advertise alcohol and bring in some racist overtones for the kids this year.

    • Chris T 4.2
      26 November 2018 at 8:41 am

      “Because, it was on the roof of a popular ‘redneck’ race car in a 1980’s TV series, which made a whole generation relate that flag to nothing else but two men and a Chrysler.”

      I think you kind of nailed it on the head here

      I would think there are quite a lot of people who just aren’t aware of the fairly recent controversy around it, as they just don’t take a huge amount of interest in current US cultural issues.

      They do just associate it with TDoH and that is what they got brought up as to what the flag represents. Personally I don’t actually put any blame on them, US events can sometimes be exceedingly dull and have zero relevance to NZ

      Slight side point

      Pretty sure the car was a Dodge Charger. Chrysler was the Aussie version.

      Chrysler was owned by Dodge and the Dodge shared some structure, but it was a different shape etc.

      • Cinny 4.2.1
        26 November 2018 at 9:20 am

        Yes that’s the one, a Dodge Charger, you are correct, Chrysler was the Aussie version. Is Mopar the umbrella for all of them?

        I think you are correct in saying that many don’t pay much attention to current events in the USA, and as a result may not know any better.

        • Andre 4.2.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 10:26 am

          The parent company was Chrysler right from the beginning in the 1920s up until the merger/bailout/buyout by Fiat a few years ago. The Dodge name was acquired not long after startup, and a bunch of other brands like De Soto, Plymouth, Imperial etc were acquired/created, used for a while, then killed/sold. Chrysler also got involved in various games of Big Boy’s Monopoly in buying and selling other car companies around the the world, such as the Rooted Group that was responsible for atrocities such as the Hillman Scavenger …

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler

          • Cinny 4.2.1.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 11:50 am

            Thanks Andre 🙂

            The Hillman Scavenger?

            I’ve heard of a Hillman Avenger and Hillman Hunter, but not a Hillman Scavenger.

            • In Vino 4.2.1.1.1.1
              26 November 2018 at 3:02 pm

              And what about the Hillman Shrimp?

              • Andre …
                26 November 2018 at 3:44 pm

                I learned to drive in a Humbug 80 (along with a left hand drive series2 Landy that I took my license test in).

                But I always figured the Hillman Minx couldn’t become a bigger object of derision no matter what you did to the name.

                • In Vino …
                  26 November 2018 at 4:19 pm

                  Yep, Minx is hard to ‘upgrade’..

                • OnceWasTim …
                  26 November 2018 at 5:18 pm

                  mmmm @ Andre.
                  I saw you more in a black Super Snipe.
                  It had that really really huge bonnet ahead of its steering wheel and some serious straight in-line cylinders. It was mainly driven by those that had reason (such as a J Toebes – gone but not forgotten).
                  But then it had many others who could only pretend and tryhard jobbie jobbie to emulate

          • Chris T 4.2.1.1.2
            26 November 2018 at 1:22 pm

            Aah

            Wrong way round, sorry

            Cheers for that info’

      • I feel love 4.2.2
        26 November 2018 at 9:21 am

        Chris T is correct, and to give some context to the Dukes Of Hazard the car was named the General Lee and the thing they were celebrating was Lee being a “rebel”, and so were the Dukes. There’s also Billy Idols song Rebel Yell which refers to the shouts of the confederate army when going into battle. Of course we know better now, I see trucks with the flag all the time, either that or a Jim Beam flag, I doubt they put much thought into it other than it “looks cool”. Watch the TV series Atlanta which cleverly takes the piss out of southern racists.

      • mauī 4.2.3
        26 November 2018 at 10:19 am

        I don’t think there is a “fairly recent controversy” over it. There’s been negative connotations surrounding that flag for decades.

        I also find it difficult to reconcile that a bunch of people would openly parade around with that flag looking nothing like DoH and not have a second thought about how they come across.

        • Chris T 4.2.3.1
          26 November 2018 at 10:39 am

          Yes there have been connections to slavery etc for decades, but the flag was largely put up with.

          They even had it on the car in that dire movie version in 2005 with no controversy

          It has only really got as massive as it is now since Charleston in 2015.

          It fact they actually removed production and sales of their General Lee toys straight after because of this.

          https://ew.com/article/2015/06/24/dukes-hazzard-general-lee-confederate-flag/

        • greywarshark 4.2.3.2
          26 November 2018 at 2:45 pm

          The USA is our default godfather don’t you know, just listen to the news from RadioNZ every day, what other country gets the same coverage? And their citizens are a dime a dozen around the country. Free to enter almost at will and probably easy residency though few would give up their own States citizenship. They like having the best of both worlds, maybe ‘to have their cake and eat it too’.

          • OnceWasTim 4.2.3.2.1
            26 November 2018 at 3:20 pm

            Ain’t that the truth @ Greywarshark.
            They’re probably the lowest of the low on that demographic immigration spreadsheet – oops, I meant ‘best practiced risk analysis’ immigration criteria reference’, just next to mother Britain and slightly above a Canadian.
            I’m not exactly sure of the weightings or where the Okkers rank.
            As for giving up their own States citizenship, I have a close relative who has now lived far more of his life in NuZull than the Greatest Nation on Earth. He even has one of those ONZ or Merity trinkets. Trying to renounce US citizenship was like being placed on a charge of treason.

            • greywarshark 4.2.3.2.1.1
              26 November 2018 at 3:25 pm

              Are you saying he wanted to give up USA citizenship, or can you become dual under NZ law? And they didn’t like him wanting to be in Godzone??

              • OnceWasTim …
                26 November 2018 at 3:58 pm

                I’m saying yes, he wanted to renounce his US citizenship. He no longer felt any sort of affinity with the place and had become more than disillusioned with its policies overseas (not that he ever publicly stated them). Most of his US based relatives had already karked it.
                I think he retains dual citizenship to this day – the threats of tax audits and various other hurdles meant renouncing it just wasn’t worth it.
                Oh, and to clarify…..I meant that non-US, non-Canadian, non-Brit dontcha know immigrants figure on the best practice risk analysis reference crib sheet whilst, as you suggest, the US citizen is automatically an asset and due for a rubber stamp on the PR application.

    • SaveNZ 4.3
      26 November 2018 at 11:12 am

      Were their any float’s from Hawera?

      Anyway if you want people not fly those flags then a start, is to get people of NZ to understand history.

      Because at present there is a dumbing down the NZ education system for arts and reducing tertiary departments for the arts, discouraging people to study the arts in NZ (apart from Law of course when we have all manner of fascists operating because they have no understanding of history, let alone morals), removing resources for the arts aka libraries, undermining history of western and local history at government and council level in real terms apart from surface representation with no real deep understanding of history, art and culture from different view points.

      If this is the standard https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/11/students-launch-petition-after-confusion-by-word-trivial-in-nzqa-exam.html we might have a lot more flags flying whether confederate or CCP or who know who else we can sell out to or start a race war over.

      • Cinny 4.3.1
        26 November 2018 at 11:45 am

        No floats from Hawera, far out those ‘lions’ really did my head in.

        Am pretty sure both of those float theme’s came from similar generations.

        There is a lack of diversity in Richmond, which results in a lack of understanding especially when it comes to different cultures. Tunnel vision as. Spot the brown person. You get the picture.

        I know at the local school here in Motueka, they do learn about many different cultures. This is in part due to such diversity within the students and families here. And it’s awesome. It makes a huge difference, it really does, one of the reasons this white girl moved her little family here.

        Absolutely get where you are coming from SaveNZ re history/culture/arts knowledge of different view points etc.

  5. Adrian Thornton 5
    26 November 2018 at 7:57 am

    Western MSM expose their own total lack of integrity and pretense of being institutions of fair and balanced reporting through their own deafening silence in the defense of the creator of the most effective whistle blower delivery system the world has ever seen..

    ON CONTACT: CRUCIFYING JULIAN ASSANGE
    Chris Hedges and Joe Lauria, journalist and editor-in-chief, Consortium, discuss efforts to force WikiLeaks publisher, Julian Assange, out of the Ecuador Embassy in London and extradite him to the USA to stand trial.

    • Ed 5.1
      26 November 2018 at 8:01 am

      Chris Hedges discussed the Death of the Liberal Class back in 2011.
      Very prescient of him as it is only now that most commentators have noticed this.

      • Adrian Thornton 5.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 8:55 am

        Yes it is a very sad indictment on western ‘liberial’ media including our own RNZ that nearly all the (now former) heroes of western reportage Robert Fisk, John Pilger, Seymour Hersh, Glenn Greenwald etc are all now effectively barred from having a voice on any of the outlets that used to champion them, we really are living is a Orwellian period of, half truths and out right lies.

        • gsays 5.1.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 1:51 pm

          love him or not, bomber bradbury being banned (alliteration!), from rnz the panel is another example.
          i heard the segment when it was broadcast, and yes, twas bombastic.
          i couldn’t disagree with him and found it refreshing to hear that attitude put so forthrightly.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    26 November 2018 at 8:16 am

    Evidence-based public policy often uses science as basis, and science often uses stats. Don’t assume stats are reliable. Those commissioning research are inclined to try to leverage the outcome:

    “A stunning report published in the Annals of Internal Medicine concludes that researchers often make “inappropriate requests” to statisticians. And by “inappropriate,” the authors aren’t referring to accidental requests for incorrect statistical analyses; instead, they’re referring to requests for unscrupulous data manipulation or even fraud.”

    “The authors surveyed 522 consulting biostatisticians and received sufficient responses from 390. Then, they constructed a table (shown below) that ranks requests by level of inappropriateness. For instance, at the very top is “falsify the statistical significance to support a desired result,” which is outright fraud. At the bottom is “do not show plot because it did not show as strong an effect as you had hoped,” which is only slightly naughty.”

    How prevalent is the coercion? Quite prevalent: “a whopping 24% — nearly 1 in 4 — said they were asked to remove or alter data. Unequivocally, that is a request to commit scientific fraud.” https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/10/30/1-4-statisticians-say-they-were-asked-commit-scientific-fraud-13554?fbclid=IwAR2K2vQwDeiso_lEA5U3Z_G3b3nh7E2mI62n-LcTlk5_ouSVikR9tqjpm0Y

    • WeTheBleeple 6.1
      26 November 2018 at 8:30 am

      My supervisor was dead set against me removing data that could be dubious in case it also removed the result. I did it anyway as science idealistically is about getting to the truth of a thing, not a convenience. Had to argue black and blue to get things done ‘properly.’

      This was UoA, 2016.

      The result was that my result was that much stronger, even with a smaller data set. It really annoyed me when he tried to stifle my enthusiasm for getting to the crux of things. I’d prefer no result to a BS result, any day.

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 8:46 am

        Yeah, me too. Doing college science in the sixties, we were taught never to eliminate anomalous data points, always put them on the graph even if miles away from the trend line makes them look wacky. Authenticity.

        So you can imagine how I felt when reading the Climategate emails, seeing actual professors agreeing to remove outliers so they could defeat climate deniers more convincingly!! They say the end justifies the means. History shows that everyone slides down a slippery slope into evil if they use that attitude.

        • WeTheBleeple 6.1.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 8:52 am

          The most interesting discoveries are often the outliers.

          One salt tolerant species of Taro – do not report Taro are not salt tolerant – cultivate that superstar!

        • mpledger 6.1.1.2
          26 November 2018 at 1:21 pm

          Sometimes outliers should be clearly taken out (a female in an all male dataset on muscle power) and some should be left in (Bill Gate’s income clearly belongs to a dataset about American incomes) … or not, depending on the point of the analysis.

          Sometimes the answer is clear about what to do and sometimes it’s not clear which way to go (Does Peter Thiel’s income belong in a dataset about NZer’s incomes?). Usually, if you’re stuck not knowing what to do then analyse with and without outliers and see what difference it makes (and present both answers if there are clear differences).

          Unfortunately, people want clear cut answers and sound nibbles – equivocation is taken as a weakness.

      • OnceWasTim 6.1.2
        26 November 2018 at 12:54 pm

        Very pleased to hear/see you stood your ground!

    • Adrian Thornton 6.2
      26 November 2018 at 10:05 am

      Reminds me of the Stanford prison experiment, which as far as I can see had no real concret ‘scientific’ results to speak of , but nonetheless was ( and probably still is) used as some sort of meaningful insight to human behaviour under certain conditions.

      • Dennis Frank 6.2.1
        26 November 2018 at 10:22 am

        That was a doozy, indeed. They even made a movie about it: “The 2015 film The Stanford Prison Experiment is based on the experiment.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

        I just went to remind myself, and the wiki account has a bunch of interesting nuances. Critics make valid points, but I still agree with Zimbardo’s thesis. Human nature is indeed context-driven. Warping via context can be designed.

        • Adrian Thornton 6.2.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 11:41 am

          ” but I still agree with Zimbardo’s thesis. Human nature is indeed context-driven. ”

          I too agree completely with that thesis, this was the point I was trying to make with a producer from RNZ during an email exchange earlier in the year, her position was, we give people the stories they want to hear, so (according to her) people are more interested in peoples stories/lives from France or the USA than they are of people in Africa/Asia or the Middle East, to which I responded, people would be concerned or interested in other peoples lives and interests of any country in the World if those peoples lives were contextualised, given form and substance, a privilege that RNZ rarely gives to these ‘other’ people…so in fact the editorial decisions of RNZ becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

      • greywarshark 6.2.2
        26 November 2018 at 2:13 pm

        Stanford been debunked according to a report I heard recently.

        And Bertrand Russell (I think) comes to mind on fools being quick in decision making while wisdom takes longer.

        • Adrian Thornton 6.2.2.1
          26 November 2018 at 4:24 pm

          Russell was the first thinker I stumbled across and liked ( probably because of his support of Muhammad Ali ) when I was a angry young 14 or 15 yo punk, I somehow found an audio of his debate with Father Frederick C. Copleston, it was a pivotal moment for me, there was something about the way these two thinkers with completely opposing concepts of reality sparred with an intellectual grace that greatly impressed me at the time, and still does.

          • greywarshark 6.2.2.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 6:46 pm

            Oh for intellectual grace Oh Lord.

            • Adrian Thornton 6.2.2.1.1.1
              26 November 2018 at 9:58 pm

              not quite sure what the problem with good manners and a bit of grace in a debate is…

              • Incognito …
                26 November 2018 at 10:16 pm

                I think Grey’s point was that good manners and a bit of grace in a genuine debate between intellectually mature people is as rare as a flying Dodo and a flying Moa doing air-acrobatics in your backyard.

              • greywarshark …
                26 November 2018 at 10:55 pm

                That remark wasn’t being sarcastic or pointed at you Adrian – it was a great phrase that I liked the sound of and would like to aspire to. So there is no problem at all. We have enough already without misunderstanding each other. Sorry about that.

                And ianmac you have also expressed yourself well. Very funny. The blog has been very interesting lately.

    • Incognito 6.3
      26 November 2018 at 9:38 pm

      The data are unreliable, the stats are unreliable, the scientists are unreliable and thus so-called evidence-based public policy is unreliable? Is that your message, Dennis? So, we might as well flick a coin to make important decisions? An almost 50% chance of getting it right?

      • Dennis Frank 6.3.1
        27 November 2018 at 8:14 am

        Things aren’t that bad. Yet. I think it signals a trend that has serious implications for public policy formulation. Reliance on stats is no longer a good idea. There’s still quite a prevalent tendency for folks to have blind faith in scientists. Sceptical appraisal makes more sense now.

        The other thing to learn from this study is the extent to which motivation is likely to warp the findings of scientists. Climate science has exposed that too, but admissions from so many researchers that they had been offered inducements to produce suitable results indicates the likelihood of a proportion of acceptance.

        Since those who take the money are unlikely to admit doing so, we can only speculate on that proportion. The bottom line is that truth and reality are not the only factors incentivising scientific discoveries: we now have good reason to suspect that some such are fake news. Which is where the scientific discipline of replication comes in. Such discoveries become reliable when confirmed by other researchers operating independently. Initial discoveries ought to be regarded as provisional. Of course, the media will ignore that need for caution.

        • Incognito 6.3.1.1
          27 November 2018 at 10:28 pm

          Good reply, thanks.

          I do struggle a little with the ambiguous term “scientific discovery” but can’t formulate a decent argument for discussion right now except to say that provisional findings make for poor public policy or (better) not at all. Maybe another time.

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    26 November 2018 at 8:39 am

    White women are a conservative force in the USA: “white women voters overwhelmingly threw their support behind conservative Republican male candidates. Again. They did it for President Trump, who won an estimated 53 percent of the white female vote in 2016. And they did it with Roy Moore, accused of sexually predatory behavior, in Alabama’s special Senate election last year.” https://www.vogue.com/article/white-women-voters-conservative-trump-gop-problem

    ““Our perception that white women are going to vote the way ‘we’ think they should has been proven false over and over again,” Elizabeth Gillespie McRae, historian and author of Mothers of Massive Resistance: White Women and the Politics of White Supremacy, tells Vogue. She points to white women’s historic role in upholding racial segregation, from campaigning against the United Nations (on the grounds that it would upend the racial divide) to rallying against school integration after Brown v. Board of Education, including leading the charge against busing black students to new districts. The Confederate monuments that have caused so much modern-day controversy, McRae adds, were often funded by white women’s organizations, prior to the 19th Amendment.”

    “The latest gut punches, courtesy of CNN polling: In the Georgia governor’s race, an estimated 75 percent of white women—more even than white men!—voted for Republican Brian Kemp, who is passionately pro-life, over Stacey Abrams, a staunch protector of women’s reproductive rights, while 97 percent of black women supported her. In Texas, 60 percent of white women cast their ballots for Republican Sen. Ted Cruz, a supporter of alleged assaulters President Trump and Brett Kavanaugh, over Democrat Beto O’Rourke, who is dedicated to improving women’s health care. (Ninety-four percent of black women backed O’Rourke.)”

    • SaveNZ 7.1
      26 November 2018 at 10:17 am

      @ Dennis Frank. Interesting juxtaposition between your post on 6, showing how statistics are being manipulated with your post 7 suggesting that an estimated white women voted 53% in 2016 for Trump (also suggests that estimated 47% white women did not vote for Trump). Then add in voters who did not vote, any statistical error and based on who identifies as ‘white’ and who identifies as a ‘women’. Not sure what the point of your post of 7 is, actually? would be more interesting if you had the entire estimated voting gender/ethnicity.. otherwise what is the point of it especially as it seems like your selected demographic of ‘white women’ is actually pretty even between Trump and not voting for Trump (if that was the point of the statistic).

      It actually shows that relying on identity politics in politics is probably not a good idea.. people are voting on their perception of who they think is the better candidate.. and going on about reproductive rights aka abortion, to christians might not be a good idea..

      • greywarshark 7.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 2:18 pm

        Is there a correlation between white women’s numbers who are linked to religious groups and churches with a patriarchal bias, and Republican voting?

        • WeTheBleeple 7.1.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 3:28 pm

          75% identified as Christian in US in 2015. But the number is dropping fast.

          107:100 boys:girls, so close to half of them female.

          > 60% white.

          > 325 million Americans.

          325 x 0.6 x 0.5 x 0.75 = approx 73 125 000 white christian women voters in US.

          Churches with patriarchal bias = pretty much all of them.

          1 Timothy 2:12 “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent.”

          Or this gem

          Ephesians 5:22 “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.”

          Anyone with half a heart only has to read that cursed book to reject it.

          Brainwashing in US however, runs very deep. All that patriotism doesn’t leave much room for grey matter. Republicans, like our own right w(h)ingers, love repugnant rhetoric espousing them as natural leaders. Here’s another pearl of wisdom from the ‘good book’.

          1 Peter 2:18 “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.”

          Here’s some breakdown of beliefs and political affiliation. Actual proportions of each religion would be nice to have as well.

          http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/party-affiliation/

          the scary one is “Sources of guidance on right and wrong”

          Republicans use religion to guide them 44% of the time, science 6%. Religion to guide them in their sexist racist homophobic genocidal ways. Science because Space Force!

          • greywarshark 7.1.1.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 10:59 pm

            Thanks WtB. I thought you were green, but you come in many colours like Josephs coat I see. The saying religiously-related applying to me:
            ‘The Lord loves a tryer’. Thanks for the help with the maths.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.2
        26 November 2018 at 3:00 pm

        I was just reporting the Vogue writer’s framing (women voting against their common interests) but I agree with you that identity politics is unreliable. Stats are equally so. One could likewise argue that the conservative women identify with their husbands, their class interests, their skin colour etc…

  8. SaveNZ 8
    26 November 2018 at 9:10 am

    Nice poem by poet Essa May Ranapiri

    ​HOW COULD I MISS YOU WITH KUMARA IN THE OVEN

    started reading the book backwards
    to get through the 25 minutes

    from notes to final section
    to the middle to first line of first
    poem to
    acknowledgements to
    isbn
    every last word so brand new

    i don’t need to be afraid of what comes next
    if i’ve already looked at where the monster ends up

    splotching plate with aioli
    spearing each chip with the fork
    i rinsed clean in the sink
    after it lay in the sink
    for about a week

    i’m reminded our people travelled so far
    and how far we’ve come coz
    i’m scared to leave the couch

    https://www.maoriart.org.nz/blog/how-could-i-miss-you-with-kumara-in-the-oven-a-poem-by-essa-may-ranapiri?fbclid=IwAR2KuVmSxqtrMzvrFLWzLHNM39i9XsOoxxRLYXMqwcMPQnqPOtKph2L_rI4

  9. Ad 9
    26 November 2018 at 10:01 am

    Next May’s European elections will be pretty interesting as a real stress test for anti-immigration populism.

    Here comes Yanis Varoufakis for EU Parliament, proposing to represent …………. Germany.

    Yesterday he accepted the nomination on behalf of the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 (DiEM25), which he launched in 2016 to “democratize” the continent. He calls it the European Spring, after the Arab Spring.

    • Adrian Thornton 9.1
      26 November 2018 at 10:10 am

      Ha, that’s funny, wonder what those gangsters at Deutsche Bank make of that?

    • cleangreen 9.2
      26 November 2018 at 10:38 am

      Ad,

      My son is leaving to work again in Germany so I will report to you what the mood is over there now as when Sam (my Son) was in Germany working last during 2005 to 2006 he said then that Arabs/Turks and others were coming in and locals were fearful then to walk the streets at night so interesting times indeed.

      • OnceWasTim 9.2.1
        26 November 2018 at 12:57 pm

        BTW @ CG – what happened with that visa situation you mentioned a few days ago?

      • Bruce 9.2.2
        26 November 2018 at 1:59 pm

        Not unusual or recent my wife and I took a stroll in Southern French city in early 90s and began to notice we were in an area of group’s of men standing about, a lady pulled over in her car and suggested we hop in as the area was not safe for us and as we were feeling intimidated by the looks we were recieving we did.

        • greywarshark 9.2.2.1
          26 November 2018 at 11:02 pm

          That’s interesting. A boy on a bicycle in some USA city suburb was stopped by a large man with the Orthodox Jew hat and curl on. He was refused entry.
          He felt quite uneasy.

      • greywarshark 9.2.3
        26 November 2018 at 2:22 pm

        nd who were afraid? It can be important for women in any town and city to know they will be safe at night, and if they have fears, they may hesitate to try but the fear may be unjustified.

        • Bruce 9.2.3.1
          26 November 2018 at 5:00 pm

          I can’t say who we we afraid of but the looks we recieved from these men was not of welcome and the feeling was not good. On the same trip we arrived early in the morning from an overnight train and found ourselves in the midst of many homeless and rough sleepers with smiles we felt quite comfortable to sit take coffee and a bun. As a traveller I find it’s best to trust your feelings. In Sth East Asia I poke my nose into most situations but found in Cambodia stepping outside the tourist areas was quite uncomfortable. But seeing the horror museums and reading that to survive meant being able to smash your mother’s skull with a hoe I understand how the locals might feel less socially inclusive.

  10. Sabine 10
    26 November 2018 at 10:05 am

    comments from friends in the US, Mexico closed its side of the border, and the US are firing tear gas into Mexico?

    still waiting for something official well at least more then twitter,

    https://twitter.com/annie_rose23/status/1066782639007232001?s=21

    oh well, surely he is gonna make America great again, and bring freedoms and peace to some if not many, or something something something,

    • Sabine 10.1
      26 November 2018 at 10:17 am

      totally unrelated of course,

      https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/world/the-latest-ukraine-russia-opens-fire-on-ukrainian-vessels/878291999

      “The European Union has called on Russia and Ukraine to “act with utmost restraint to de-escalate” the situation in the Black Sea.

      Ukraine says that three of its ships have been seized by the Russian coast guard, including two that were fired upon, and two crew members were wounded. Russia has blamed Ukraine for preparing and orchestrating “provocations.”

      The EU, in a statement from foreign affairs spokeswoman Maja Kocijanic, also said that it expected Russia to “restore freedom of passage” through the Kerch Strait after Moscow blockaded it.”

      nothing happened, nothing to see, move along citizen

      • francesca 10.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 2:10 pm

        Hmmm
        Interesting timing, just as Kiev launches a move occupying village in buffer area between the front lines in Eastern Ukraine. , and as Poroshenkos ratings hit an all time low(7.8%) with elections coming up and Yulia Tymoshenko looking set to win
        Poroshenko now has the consent of his national defence and security council to declare martial law , which would suspend parliament and elections , can be used to ban protests and activities by political parties, and allows for media, TV stations and newspapers to be shut down.
        Russia has called for an emergency meeting of theUN SC scheduled in about 9 hours.
        Poroshenko has scheduled a meeting with Stoltenberg.
        Basically a squabble over whether Ukraine gave advance notice of intention to move through that Kerch area, which they say they did. The Russian coastguard says they didn’t.
        Previously Ukraine has obeyed that protocol

        • Sabine 10.1.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 2:45 pm

          poor russia, so hard done buy the big angry heavily armed superpower Ukraine, who always goes walkabouts invading in Russia, seizing Russian ships n just. Luckily Russia is calling for the help of the UN. Cause what would Russia do otherwise. Cry a bucket?

          • joe90 10.1.1.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 2:58 pm

            TBF, poor Russia has a few problems of her own.

            A day after Russia’s massive PD-50 drydock suddenly sank underneath the country’s only aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, as it was receiving a long-awaited overhaul in frigid Murmansk, just how big a deal this may end up being for the Russian Navy is becoming clearer. The dry dock, which is the largest of its kind in Russian hands, appears to have sunk at first on a steep incline before it disappeared totally beneath the water’s surface. Russian officials are now saying that it could be many months before it is raised from the seabed 160 feet below and that doing so would be a very tedious and delicate operation. That’s if they decide to salvage it at all.

            Regardless, PD-50 services all types of vessels that make up Russia’s most powerful fleet, including its largest submarines. So leaving it out of action for years, or even losing it altogether, would be a major hit for the Northern Fleet and the Russian Navy’s overall readiness.

            http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24572/russias-dry-dock-accident-could-have-far-larger-repercussions-than-a-damaged-carrier

          • francesca 10.1.1.1.2
            26 November 2018 at 3:19 pm

            Whooosh!
            Such malice Sabine and Joe90, aint good for your liver.

          • greywarshark 10.1.1.1.3
            26 November 2018 at 3:53 pm

            Ukraine is seen as in the USA oriented nations, and which country knows what they will do next. White the USA surrounds itself with defensive sites. Didn’t help with September 2001 though.

    • gsays 10.2
      26 November 2018 at 2:01 pm

      malcolm gladwell has a great podcast series.
      one of the episodes was looking at the movement of people across the mexican/u.s. border over 40 or so years.

      the surprising conclusion was that when movement was less stringently controlled (up till the last 10 years), mexicans were far more likely to return and stay home, (not be aliens/illegal), than when the border got tightly controlled.

      i thoroughly recommend revisionist history podcast.

      i am not sure what this episode was.

      another goodie was looking at french fries and how much better they tasted when they were cooked in beef fat compared to vege oils.
      vege oils that are not good for you…

      • Sabine 10.2.1
        26 November 2018 at 3:04 pm

        there are whole familys that are almost nomadic, they travel the various states for the harvest seasons and once done go back home. Rinse repeat every year.

        but hey, what ever gets one elected as the candidate not beholden to corporate interest, self funded, and only worried about the economic anxiety of the white male working class.

        After all, all mexicans are rapists and drug peddler. So said the Orange Saviour in 2015. In front of a camera and people and everyone just nodded and said: It is good.

        • WeTheBleeple 10.2.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 3:42 pm

          This happens in Queensland too. I met a few Thai couples who came over each year to pick tomatoes then went back.

  11. Chris T 11
    26 November 2018 at 10:20 am

    Bridges weighs in on the great 2018 Santagate controversy.

    Good to see him talking about the “important” issues

    https://en.brinkwire.com/news/santa-claus-is-a-man-and-thats-how-it-should-be-simon-bridges/

    “I think it’s just PC gone – I don’t know if it’s mad, but too far. You guys this morning are telling me that man didn’t walk on the moon, now you’re telling me Santa’s a woman – I just want a few things I can believe in.”

    “…….We’ve got discrimination rules and they’re absolutely right, you know, whether it’s gender, whether it’s ethnicity,” said Mr Bridges.

    “But I think the truth is on Santa, this is a traditional thing. Mary Poppins is a woman, Santa Claus is a man. That’s how it should be……”

    • Sabine 11.1
      26 November 2018 at 10:25 am

      Saint Nicolaus was a man, Santa Claus is a fat made up american bloke in costume created to sell coca cola.

      gosh that man is tedious.

  12. Antoine 12
    26 November 2018 at 10:29 am

    My point is that you begin by a personal attack on AM Brady, with the intention of diminishing her credibility, as a preamble to dismissing whatever she has to say.

    It seems like a shabby way to argue.

    A.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Bill 12.1
      26 November 2018 at 10:51 am

      No Antione. You don’t have a point. I was quite explicit in saying “some may”, and gave another possibility too before writing that I wasn’t offering an opinion on either or either way.

      I listened to what she said. Have you? I put up opinion and thoughts you could have engaged with.

      You’ve chosen not to engage and to splatter a post with bullshit. So your comment’s now over here on Open Mike.

      • Antoine 12.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 10:57 am

        Oh, come on.

        If I say “some may say X is a swivel-eyed loon but I couldn’t possibly comment”, then everyone will understand this as a coy way of saying “X is a swivel-eyed loon”.

        Well, comport yourself as you like but don’t expect the rest of us to be impressed.

        A.

        • Bill 12.1.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 11:08 am

          Sure. My bias was stated. And then there was substantive opinion and thought to read and commented on in light of that bias.

          You want to spend a day engaged in stirring up vacuous personal bullshit in lieu of engaging with substantive content? That’s what bullshit message boards and facebook are for.

          • Antoine 12.1.1.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 11:10 am

            I don’t have a response to the remainder of your comment. Don’t know enough about the case and wouldn’t comment on here if I did.

            A.

  13. patricia bremner 13
    26 November 2018 at 10:51 am

    Hospital Workers get rises of 24% to 40% on their hourly rate, some back dated 6 mths and this over 2 and a half years. A piece of good news in the Herald today.

  14. cleangreen 14
    26 November 2018 at 11:01 am

    Sabine at 11.1

    “Saint Nicolaus was a man,Santa Claus is a fat made up american bloke in costume”

    He was a man; – yes – and Saint Nicholas was not Santa Claus either!

    According to this German historical record of the two men, known as “Santa Claus and Saint Nicholas.. – No mention of Coca cola though, sarc’.

    https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/holidays-and-celebrations/christmas/saint-nicholas/

    Christmas Customs: St. Nicholas – der Heilige Nikolaus
    Wer ist Sankt Nikolaus?

    – Who is Saint Nicholas?

    For a long time in Austria and some regions of Germany, particularly in Bavaria, St. Nicholas was the main character in the Christmas celebration.

    But he was not Santa Claus, and he arrived earlier – on the 6th of December. His usual, less friendly escort went by different names in different places: “Belsnickle,” “Niglo,” “Pelznickel,” and others. Santa Claus or Father Christmas is a more recent tradition. Since the Germans (and the Dutch) brought many of their customs to America directly or indirectly, we need to look first at Europe in order to understand the American and worldwide Christmas celebration of today.

    • Sabine 14.1
      26 November 2018 at 2:58 pm

      I am german, i am bavarian. Thanks for the history lesson. We only have St. Nicolaus on the 6th of December, on the eve of the 24th we give pressies, go to midnight mess if so inclined, and that was that. No one crawling through the chimney or anything. 25th and 26th are Christmas Holidays without any importance other then visiting family and eating way to much food, and drinking way to much booze.

      Santa Claus is if anything dutch in nature, and then co-opted by Coca Cola. The dutch would have called him Sinter Claas, and his helper is generally refered to as het swarte piet. The black pete.

      Hence my comment in the first place about the gender and the reality of Saint Nicolaus, Bishop of Bari whom the legend says went out during a particular hard winter and left overings of food, clothes and toys for the children in front of the houses of the poor.

      He should not be ‘played by a women’ cause he was a man, in saying that in the convent that i grew up and lived in for many years it was Nuns who played the part of St. Nicolaus and Kramperl (his helper) was also played by a Nun. They came with the book of good deeds and bad deeds, scared the small children witless and us older ones running down the halls of the convent screeching trying to figure out who played whom. However we never did. The Nuns always outsmarted us. Such are nuns, what can i say.

      However, fat Coca Cola Santa can and should be played by whomever applies for hte role and is best suited.
      That is what my comment relates too.

      As for those that like this bit, St. Barbara is held on the fourth of December, Patron Saint of miners. I have her in mind, while the bodies of the pike river miners are recovered. She is often depicted with a lantern in her hand, surrounded by praying/crying women and children at the entrance of a mining shaft.

      yeah, i am very bavarian, and i like my little customs. So light a candle on the 4th Dec, for all the miners everywhere. And give sweets to the kids on the 6th of december thanks to Saint Nicolaus.

  15. Robert Guyton 15
    26 November 2018 at 11:21 am

    I’m not so interested in who “Father Christmas” was . I like to think about who he can be, from this moment on. This year, courtesy of my now-convincingly festive white beard, I’m going to play “Father Christmas’s ” dad, Grandfather Christmas and give out to children, hope and encouragement along with packets of vegetable seeds 🙂

    • Puckish Rogue 15.1
      26 November 2018 at 2:38 pm

      I found an educational video on Santa that might give you some ideas

    • gsays 15.2
      26 November 2018 at 5:53 pm

      Mihingarangi Forbes had a good idea on RNZ this arvo.

      Having a kiwi character be the equivalent.
      I think her suggestion was Rongo Ma Tane, God of cultivated plants and food.

  17. cleangreen 17
    26 November 2018 at 12:25 pm

    Natioal Party may be behind these sudden vehicle liciencing issues being stirred up tas both Davaville and westland are both Labour strongholds we now await to see if a “Garage in a National stronghold is also pulled up” as the whole NZTA handling of vehicle licieces debate hots up.

    Seocond garage found is “Westland tyre and Autos” is clearly a laour strondhold whom the NZTA agency has targetted now who has had that garage in Westland WoF licience evoked.

    Will NZTA now target the National strongholds of West and north Auckland,,hamiton, Tauranga, Otago, and Southland?

    We await for this with interest.

    National Party seems to be causing trouble and friction among communities, only in labour held areas. it seems to be the new game of National politics.

    So watch their ‘dark ops’ of “dirty politics” as time goes by.

  18. cleangreen 18
    26 November 2018 at 12:55 pm

    Yes SaveNZ

    you hit the mark there with the ‘Bridges issue’ here in your article see this statement made in the article https://www.noted.co.nz/culture/arts/how-to-make-auckland-city-of-the-future-give-it-back-to-artists/?fbclid=IwAR1PAjjOSuzW2bEys2T–1zb7PgQfkAppDMf6rZiEafZUHSstTi01Mgx8iI

    Go to this site inside your article,

    https://www.noted.co.nz/currently/politics/simon-bridges-9-months-of-disaster-management/

    Quote;
    “It’s a reasonable bet that when Simon Bridges took on the job as leader in February he didn’t expect it would mostly involve wall-to-wall disaster management of National’s problems that would overshadow his attempts to harass the coalition government for its failings.”

    As my bolg suggested; – National is trying now quietly to find as your article says; –
    “problems that would overshadow his attempts to harass the coalition government for its failings.”

    The Wof issue is one of those I suggest, as we already had this over the truck trailer issue last wanter when a Nelson enginerering shop signed off many truck trailers with false certificates, so now Bridges is causing further unrest amost the private vehicle liciencing now too.

    Watch for this slimy Bridges character as he is a very slippery character.

    So we do womder if he can dinger a Garage in his seat of Tauranga now for licience breaches of Wof’s?

  19. joe90 19
    26 November 2018 at 1:55 pm

    The United States of America is firing chemical agents at women and children.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds4MbkzU4AENr_m.jpg

    Border Patrol fired off shots at a group trying to go through the fence. We ran and hid under train. They sent in CS gas. Babies are scared and crying. pic.twitter.com/FCM1DcG2o8— WendyFry (@WendyFry_) November 25, 2018

    • greywarshark 19.1
      26 November 2018 at 2:02 pm

      Shocking. What is the international game plan as signed up with UN about this?
      Or has USA lost every sense of appropriate behaviour, decency, respect for humanity? Time for a Billy Graham mass Christian campaign calling all the sinners back to the fold, and also making America great again in one package. At present there is an evil message being absorbed under a false flag.

      • joe90 19.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 2:17 pm

        Billy Graham mass Christian campaign calling all the sinners back to the fold

        The warmongering, anti-Semitic piece of shit’s memory should be rendered damnatio memoriae.

        http://www.nypress.com/billy-graham-war-criminal/

        • greywarshark 19.1.1.1
          26 November 2018 at 2:35 pm

          I was short of anybody with that pulling power to ‘USA Christians’. So I picked the wrong guy did I. But is there a new, better sort of preacher that would turn this tide of negativity, racism, hate and bellicose scapegoating that mixed together looks nasty.

          • joe90 19.1.1.1.1
            26 November 2018 at 2:41 pm

            Anyone, as long as they take their damn fool book seriously.

            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+14%3A13-21&version=NIV

            • greywarshark 19.1.1.1.1.1
              26 November 2018 at 2:53 pm

              You came up with a doozy of a link. So interesting and relevant to the voting for the Republicans and the connection with religion.

              Also this on North Korea. I didn’t know the history and see why they have ‘ambivalent’ attitudes to the USA.

              Graham lent his imprimatur to this recommendation. Thus Graham was advocating a policy to the U.S. Commander-in-Chief that on Nixon’s own estimate would have killed a million people.

              The German High Commissioner Seyss-Inquart was sentenced to death at Nuremberg for breaching dikes and other crimes in Holland in World War II.

              (His execution did not deter the USAF from destroying the Toksan dam in North Korea, in 1953, thus deliberately wrecking the system that irrigated 75 percent of North Korea’s rice farms.)

            • greywarshark 19.1.1.1.1.2
              26 November 2018 at 2:57 pm

              You came up with a doozy of a link with that nypress one. So interesting and relevant to Republicans and voting and religion; this time anti-Jewish. And Billy Graham is very anti – doesn’t come across as a decent Christian for sure.

              Also this on North Korea. I didn’t know the history and see why they have ‘ambivalent’ attitudes to the USA.

              Graham lent his imprimatur to this recommendation. Thus Graham was advocating a policy to the U.S. Commander-in-Chief that on Nixon’s own estimate would have killed a million people.

              The German High Commissioner Seyss-Inquart was sentenced to death at Nuremberg for breaching dikes and other crimes in Holland in World War II.

              (His execution did not deter the USAF from destroying the Toksan dam in North Korea, in 1953, thus deliberately wrecking the system that irrigated 75 percent of North Korea’s rice farms.)

    • Sabine 19.2
      26 November 2018 at 3:13 pm

      and a useless fat ugly man is feeling all powerful, probably sexually aroused by the fear he creates and while watching fox news, eating literal shit sandwiches from MacDo gets off every time another canister gets shot across the border.

      Cause nothing says powerful man more then crying mothers and children.

      And this is how it starts. And this is how it always started. Some useless sadistic piece of shit supported by people cause……economic anxiety. T’was thus in Germany, and now we get to watch the sequel.

  22. bwaghorn 22
    26 November 2018 at 3:00 pm

    Holy shit I just got all the way to the bottom of open mic. And not a single thread was a complete waste of time scrolling paste petty bullshit. . I don’t even think I read a single pointless slogan.
    Take bow people. 😏

    • Sabine 22.1
      26 November 2018 at 3:14 pm

      and you came along, and said nothing much of importance.

      Take a bow. 🙂

      • greywarshark 22.1.1
        26 November 2018 at 3:22 pm

        Can we step back from little comments that add nothing. I did one yesterday and I promise not to do it again for a while. Could we all step back and let it go, unless having a rare poke whn the time is appropriate.

      • bwaghorn 22.1.2
        27 November 2018 at 6:20 am

        True

  23. ScottGN 23
    26 November 2018 at 4:04 pm

    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has started trolling Fox News in Spanish…

    https://mashable.com/article/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-fox-news-shoes/#pnwtiu3sCqqf

  24. Cinny 24
    26 November 2018 at 4:11 pm

    Anyone else splitting their sides laughing with simon bridges and nationals…. no new taxes announcement?

    Was simon asleep during the johnkey years of government?

    I’m pretty sure key promised the same then nek minute….. it’s a levy, it’s a fee, it’s not a tax, don’t forget raising gst.

    No new taxes…. dosen’t mean we can’t increase the current ones.

    Oh and if a CGT is introduced he is going to get rid of it, to help the poor (sarc)

  25. ScottGN 25
    26 November 2018 at 4:18 pm

    Possibly as many as 3 binding referendums at the next election? Our ballot papers will look like those enormous long ones they have in America.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/11/triple-header-referendum-looms-for-2020.html

    • Cinny 25.1
      26 November 2018 at 4:25 pm

      Quite like the idea of referendums being included in the election. Cheaper than doing them separately. And possibly will make for a greater turn out of voters.

    • gsays 25.2
      26 November 2018 at 7:02 pm

      I don’t mind a referendum but the binding bit sticks in the craw.

      It all depends on the wording of the question.
      E.g. marijuana. I am all for decriminilising the weed.
      That would also go hand in hand with restrictions and decent education.
      Not the DARE type, Mr Mackey “drugs are bad mmkay?”

      I have no care for legalisation, i.e. handing pot over to big business a la alcohol.

      Plus it might mean celebrity survivor fans have a large influence.

  26. eco maori 26
    27 November 2018 at 7:48 am

    Kia ora Newshub These helicopter are crashing often.
    The virus outbreak up In North Land condolences to anyone who has lost love ones.
    It a big mystery around Whale stranding 145 stranded down South have died that’s sad. The worst thing one can do is give the issue publicity
    The NZ CEO over half don’t use twitter ???????? Equality half Wahine CEO is needed to fix most of our problems.
    I agree the addiction needs to be treated so the people doing dump things will be able to straighten up there act that’s a smart way to a positive solution to a bad problem.
    I back welcoming Refugees they are people in need we can not ignore there suffering
    and ha the west has cause most of these Refugee problems.
    With the Smoking tax debate its a addiction tax’s don’t treat the addiction they just rake money from poor people who can’t beat the addiction billions should be invested to find better treatments for the smokers addiction not higher TAX.
    Ka kite ano

  27. eco maori 27
    27 November 2018 at 8:27 am

    Eco Maori encourages all the WORLDS CHILDREN to protest about the inaction of the
    Worlds Governments to do everything in there POWER’S to mitigate Climate Change as it is there FUTURE we are poisoning and turning into hell for all as it is our children who have to clean up there MESS.
    And if teachers really care about there children they will tau toko/support there STAND.
    Scott Morrison has been labelled “out of touch” for angrily condemning a national student strike to protest government inaction on climate change.

    The prime minister implored children to stay in class rather than protesting things that “can be dealt with outside of school”.
    Everything you want to know about climate change in #MyClimateQuestions
    Read more

    “Each day I send my kids to school and I know other members’ kids should also go to school but we do not support our schools being turned into parliaments,” Morrison told parliament on Monday. Ka kite ano Links Below

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/26/scott-morrison-tells-students-striking-over-climate-change-to-be-less-activist
    This Swedish girl is protesting about the MESS the WORLD GOVERNMENTS are making of her future KA PAI /GOOD

    When school started in August this year, I decided enough was enough. Sweden had just experienced its hottest summer ever. The election was coming up. No one was talking about climate change as a crisis.
    Advertisement

    So I decided to walk out of school and sit on the ground outside the Swedish parliament to demand our politicians treat climate change for what it is: the biggest issue we have ever faced.

    Because if climate change has to stop, then we must stop it. It is black and white. There are no grey areas when it comes to survival. Either we continue as a civilisation or we don’t. One way or another, we have to change. Countries like mine and Australia must start reducing our emissions dramatically if we believe in equality and climate justice.Australia is the world’s biggest exporter of coal, one of the leading cause of climate change. Your politicians want to help Adani build one of the biggest coal mines in the world. Right now, there are no policies to change this. There are no rules to keep coal in the ground. We can no longer save the world by playing by the rules because the rules have to be changed

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/26/im-striking-from-school-for-climate-change-too-save-the-world-australians-students-should-too

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YQIaOldDU8
    P.S I was just thinking that I did not see Paddy on the show Maui Dolphins are my favorites Tangaroa Mammal

  28. eco maori 28
    27 November 2018 at 8:29 am

    Video for the above post

  29. eco maori 29
    27 November 2018 at 9:03 am

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute

  30. eco maori 30
    27 November 2018 at 12:52 pm

    Here you go he does not care about the billions of lives his ignorance is going to harm
    donald trump has told reporters he doesn’t believe his own government’s climate change findings that the US economy will suffer substantially with continued warming from greenhouse gas pollution.

    “I’ve seen it, I’ve read some of it, and it’s fine,” he said outside the White House on Monday. “I don’t believe it.”
    From Facebook to climate change: how to bury bad news
    Read more

    The report, called the National Climate Assessment, was quietly released the day after Thanksgiving. Also last Friday, the government slipped out another environment internal report with bad news about emissions from oil and gas drilling on federal lands. Link below ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/26/trump-national-climate-assessment-dont-believe

  31. eco maori 31
    27 November 2018 at 12:56 pm

    Eco Maori music

  32. eco maori 32
    27 November 2018 at 6:48 pm

    Kia ora Newshub Tova Bulling is not acceptable and should be stamped out of all organizations.
    That virus in North Land is shocking and in a place with high Maori population this tell me that we are a second class people .
    The closing off Queen’s st to all but the essential vehicles is a really good move there are quite a few city’s around the world doing this with big success clean air.
    Our children always have there faces in there Ph not I . I just do a lot of research for my mission I will be doing Eco Maori influencing for a long time.
    The health supplements is not regulated.
    Condolences to all the people who lost there houses in the big fire in Australia .
    Everyone is buying Tesla cars A with GM lay off and some ones trade war is hurting the poor.
    I have a consumers complaint every time I go to buy some thing some how they have not got the product I want so they say they will ring back but know O that’s just the bulling sandfly being muppets trying there best to try and upset me but no they are just small fry in Eco Maoris Papatuanuku.
    Ka kite ano P.S some people think they know my whapapa but there is one line no one knows about.

  33. eco maori 33
    27 November 2018 at 7:23 pm

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Mulls James & Wairangi Wild fingers crossed for the Black Caps.
    The League dramas that move will get the punters out.
    Yes Its cool that Joe Schmidts is stepping aside for his whano .
    At the Bowls guys the Crowd is growing thats the way Tau toko them not to much cups of teas tho A.
    That Hand glider person was lucky he only broke his wrist he would have had to change his ——
    That was a good UFC KO kick the ref in the teeth lol we no what’s really in the water bottle mulls Ka kite ano

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