Open mike 27/07/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, July 27th, 2019 - 152 comments
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152 comments on “Open mike 27/07/2019”

  1. johnm 1

    "If We Don't Protect Nature We Can't Protect Ourselves" Harrison Ford | Extinction Rebellion

  2. vto 2

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/114542552/former-civic-creche-worker-peter-ellis-last-bid-before-he-cancer-takes-him

    Peter Ellis… an injustice on him? An injustice on our nation? A witch hunt? How would The Standard audience have approached these accusations, the trials, the everything back in the early mid-90's?

    Our society suffers a lack of men in ece and elsewhere – is it any wonder? No it isn't…. reaping and sowing ….

    This case needs re-doing. 

    • Pat 2.1

      a case study in mass hysteria

      • Anne 2.1.1

        I remember TV interviews with some of the mothers who had levelled the allegations against Peter Ellis. To put it bluntly, they were bitches who were out to get Ellis come hell or high water. Lack of evidence didn't bother them. It seemed to me the kids were mere putty in their hands and repeated what their Mums essentially told them. They destroyed an innocent man's life and no doubt are responsible for shortening it. I would like to see them named and shamed.

        • JanM 2.1.1.1

          So would I !

          • greywarshark 2.1.1.1.1

            But what got into them to do that?   It seems to me group-think.    And people who mouth platitudes about fairness and rightness but are basically amoral, but ready to roll on a wave of 'hysteria' as Pat puts it.     It is interesting that burlesque performers in NZ just lately have had to complain about people in the audience bringing under-age children to the performances, though they are R16 rated, down from R18 apparently, but it appears some have taken it to mean that any old thing can be lampooned in front of the children.    They tone down their show, can't be as risque as they would, because children aren't able to understand the content.

            These are the same mindless people who are anti-vaxxers, would vote for Trump, even though they say they are Christian, and have plenty of his misdemeanours to overlook.  

            The emotional response to anything, has to be tempered and controlled, so a reasoned decision can be made.    Some people cannot be trusted to run their response to anything past their own mind control.

      • francesca 2.1.2

        Absolutely. It was a global thing too. Children were being separated from their parents  in the UK ,because the authorities held the kids were being abused…with rectal damage being the evidence. Turns out the kids had constipation, and the "abuse" kept happening even when the" pedophile" parents were absent

        There was an unshakeable mind set that kids never lied about this stuff, that all men were rapists and pedophiliac satanic cults were widespread. How many families were ripped apart because of this madness. "A City Possessed" by Lynley Hood is a masterpiece and should be required reading for media studies, social workers, hell, high school students.

        Perhaps then we'd be developing a bit of critical thinking to set against the endless  media "outrage" campaigns

        • Pat 2.1.2.1

          have never read the book but can recall reading some transcripts of the 'interviews' that were published and the recall the fact that 5 women were also originally accused …..a disgraceful witch hunt that should have been remedied decades ago and all involved censured 

          • Anne 2.1.2.1.1

            That's correct. After exhaustive questioning they were released without charges being laid. I also remember them being categorical about Ellis' innocence. The words I recall being said is that it was "all a complete nonsense". My recollection is those women couldn't get jobs as kindy teachers after that affair.

        • Anne 2.1.2.2

          Yep. I guess they were the latter-day boomers who had everything handed to them on a platter and were able to buy homes with State Advance loans at very low rates of interest. They developed a sense of misplaced superiority on the back of their good luck.

          It was also the era where Enid Blytons books were banned and a whole generation missed out on her wonderfully imaginative stories. That was a bad thing apparently. Noddy was banned because he was supposed to be – to quote terminology of the day – a homosexual. OMG that's terrible they said to one another. Did it ever occur to them that children don't think like adults and they wouldn't have known what a homosexual was if they fell over one? It was complete bollocks anyway.

          That was the background that allowed this crazy stuff to prosper which, in this case, caused a decent young man to spend seven years in prison for crimes he never committed. 

    • A 2.2

      I feel for the guy. Entire story sounds batshit crazy.

      • Morrissey 2.2.1

        We should be used to it. Have you followed the similarly rigorous witch hunts against Assange and Corbyn?

        • McFlock 2.2.1.1

          Is there nothing you won't use to push your imaginary barrows?

          • Sacha 2.2.1.1.1

            Shameless.

          • One Two 2.2.1.1.2

            How does Morrissey suggesting similarities in treatment between Ellis, Corbyn and Assanage  become pushing an imaginary barrow….in your head?

            • McFlock 2.2.1.1.2.1

              Because in only one case was pretty much the totality of the evidence thoroughly documented as having been distilled from a myriad of stories actively encouraged from young children.

              as opposed to Assange (two clear statements from the women and the facts put forward by Assange's UK legal team).

              No idea what Moz thinks Corbyn's been accused of. I'm only familiar with accusations that Labour has done fuckall about antisemitism within its ranks, despite numerous complaints from a variety of levels of party membership.

          • Morrissey 2.2.1.1.3

            "Imaginary barrows"? Like those giraffes under the basement and that murdered child at the Civic Creche? Like those absurd allegations that Jeremy Corbyn is an "antisemite"? Like that bizarre Soviet-style campaign against the man who published evidence of U.S. soldiers murdering civilians in Iraq?

            What's "imaginary" about those barrows, exactly?

            • McFlock 2.2.1.1.3.1

              Only one of those things was based purely on the invention of children, though.

              The other two had some reference to actual events (whether those events were then misinterpreted to suit the narrative or not).

        • greywarshark 2.2.1.2

          Morrissey

          You should stop bringing that up.    It is more than mischievous of you and you will lose any cred you have built up.    Some of the cynics might keep you as a pet, but you aim to be a respected commenter and critic I think.

          • Morrissey 2.2.1.2.1

            You should stop bringing that up.  

            Bringing what up?

            It is more than mischievous of you and you will lose any cred you have built up.

            Sorry, you're a bit obscure here, Mr Shark. What was "mischievous" in what I wrote?

            Some of the cynics might keep you as a pet,

            Hmmm. Interesting thought, that. Think I might run away if McFlock was my owner.

            but you aim to be a respected commenter and critic I think.

            Well, some people out there respect moi, but there are some I have yet to win over, such as the esteemed thinker Leighton Smith…

            “Morrissey from Northcote Point, you’re a N-N-NUTCASE!!!! Go away and DON”T bother me again!!!! Go and get a job! The world is made up of some STRA-A-A-A-A-ANGE people! Strewth!”

            https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2019/01/how-this-writer-ie-moi-goaded-leighton.html

             

    • gsays 2.3

      I thoroughly recommend 'A City Possessed' by Lynley Hood.

      Amongst the disturbing reading is the main complainant's mother was involved in an 'intimate relationship' with the head investigating officer.

      When evidence is as heavily redacted as the children's testimony was, it becomes highly dodgy.

      Peter Ellis has not changed his stance and at the height of the witch hunt, his concern was for the children. When confronted with their allegations, he said 'if they believe these things happened to them, what help are they getting now?'

    • Gabby 2.4

      A certain mayor of a certain city, how she can look at herself in the mirror I do not know.

  3. johnm 3

    On Contact: UK alternative media with Kerry-Anne Mendoza

  4. Sacha 4

    Interesting interviews with (anonymous) Nat MPs about their party's mindset: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114535570/simon-bridges-chance-to-reunify-national-party-after-a-bloody-year

    Other MPs think the caucus needs to look at itself more closely. Electorate MPs are hearing party members are angry with the way the 2017 election ended. Members knocked on doors, donated, and eventually delivered National a crushing victory in the 2017 election, only for party leaders to squander it in negotiations with NZ First.

    To make matters worse, party grandees looking to save face suggested they’d never really wanted to go with NZ First anyway.

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.1

      I'd seriously recommend reading this…https://www.bwb.co.nz/books/marilyn-waring-political-years

      What struck me was the massive amount of political capital raised within the electorate through hours spent driving between venues and actually engaging with locals. Local Party members clearly did a huge amount to ensure 'their' girl made it to Wellington and was supported when she got there.

      Sadly, Wellington was a toxic battleground, and the other thing that stood out from the book is that today we are still struggling to make progress on some of the issues Waring and other female MPs from both sides of the house were raising back then.

      One issue was abortion, and the other was better support for families living with disability.

      Irony overload.

    • …delivered National a crushing victory in the 2017 election…

      Er, parties that win a crushing victory in an election become the government.  Still a very high level of delusion and denial among Nat members, by the look of it.

      • Dukeofurl 4.2.1

        Yes its laugable .

        Look at the other Labour Party in Australia and their  'crushing victory'

        Labour  68 seats 

        Liberal 44 seats 

        Liberal National  23

        National 10 

         

        The Liberals were the second biggest party and they too needed a coalition to become government

        • Bearded Git 4.2.1.1

          Duke…as I posted just after the Oz election

          Australian Election-

          Labor plus Greens 43.5% 68 seats

          Coalition 41.8% 78 seats

          Thank goodness for MMP in NZ.

          Scomo didn't really win at all.

          (I think it ended up 77-69 in the end because Labor ended up winning Macquarie. There must be 4 independents?)

  5. marty mars 5

    what a joke – those naughty young people. so young, so young – protesting as young people, so young. ffs most are over 20 – check out the thousands arriving today – young? I don't think so. The framing is stupid and won't work – it's up there with the foreshore and seabed bullshit.

    • Dennis Frank 5.1

      "As RNZ has noted, a generational divide exists between SOUL and the kaumatua from Te Kawerau a Maki and representatives of the Kiingitangi movement who have given Fletchers the green light to proceed."  http://werewolf.co.nz/2019/07/gordon-campbell-on-the-ihumatao-dispute/

      Not saying you're wrong.  I expect the protest to pull an attendance that is pan-generational.  Yet hard to argue against the perception that niece & uncle are stuck in a generational stand-off, eh?

      • marty mars 5.1.1

        imo it's a simplistic understanding – really just another argue from authority approach, like the outsiders coming in lines

      • Brigid 5.1.2

        "Yet hard to argue against the perception that niece & uncle are stuck in a generational stand-off, eh?"

        For the simpleton maybe, for those with more than a few functioning brain cells the notion is outrageous.

        The SOUL  movement is backed by hundreds and hundreds, and Te Kawerau a Maki is but one interested party.

        The land was stolen ffs by that bastard Grey and his english forces and simply given to english settlers.

        If there is no law that governs the return of this land  to its rightful owners Jacinda needs to get her arse into gear and enact  one.

        The fact that the Waitangi Tribunal cannot make judgements on privately "owned" land is why Maori have had so little of it returned to them.

        • Muttonbird 5.1.2.1

          This. The Treaty process is no longer fit for purpose, if it ever was.

          One of the right wing hacks today said JA still has her training wheels on. Well, this country still has its training wheels on.

          We suck at this stuff.

          • JohnSelway 5.1.2.1.1

            " The Treaty process is no longer fit for purpose, if it ever was. "

            Same as the United States Constitution. Basing laws on documents 100 years old is a stupid idea. Laws, politics and expected outcomes need to move with the times

            • greywarshark 5.1.2.1.1.1

              John S   It has slipped your attention that Maori have insisted that te Tiriti is a living document and needs to be viewed and negotiated in those terms,

            • Stuart Munro. 5.1.2.1.1.2

              The US constitution is a pretty enlightened piece of work in fact. That contemporary politicians choose not to live up to enlightenment principles is a problem of society at large – corrupt leaders are not supposed to be tolerated, the demos is supposed to rise and oust them if their colleagues lack the mettle.

        • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.2

          So you think dodging the issue is the best way to deal with it??  You really believe that an uncle and his niece refusing to reach agreement for four long years and holding the nation to ransom is a non-issue??  Jeez, what planet you come from?

          • Brigid 5.1.2.2.1

            Dennis, if you think an uncle and his niece refusing to reach agreement is the crux of the matter, then it must be declared that you know so very little of said matter.

            The reason for SOUL's being is to bring the issue into the lime light. Therefore it is not being dodged.

            I recommend you read Chris Trotter's article

            http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2019/07/colonisation-in-action.html

            • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.2.1.1

              We all know the origin of the problem.  Focus ought to be shifting to the solution.  The generational stand-off is obviously preventing the solution.  Has been doing so for four years!  What part of that is so hard for you to understand??

              • marty mars

                lol sounds like you should go there and broker the deal dennis lol

                • Dennis Frank

                  Huh.  I'm about as non-Maori as you can get.  Expertise & track record in achieving consensus isn't sufficient in this situation, so you'd be better off nominating a Maori with that eh?

                  Assuming you want a solution that is.  You could be one of those people who think protesting forever is a lot more fun than solving problems.

  6. bwaghorn 6

    Are the greens with their support of the  ihimatao protests gunning for a Maori seat ,? 

    It wouldnt be a bad thing imho maybe labour should consider a very gentle pulling back from one or two Maori electorate. 

    • Pat 6.1

      you might want to look at previous Maori seat voting patterns to determine if thats a likely proposition

      • Dukeofurl 6.1.1

        Yes. Greens have small support in Maori seats and  low support in low income seats generally. Their base is well off urban areas mainly women.

    • solkta 6.3

      No, the Greens are just being consistent, doing what they have always done.

      • bwaghorn 6.3.1

        So its ot green policy for the government to buy private land to return to Maori?

        • marty mars 6.3.1.1

          you are just extrapolating to cause fear and anguish for others – why generate race hatred when it isn't there now? Maybe it is there, underneath all the bullshit the hard dirty truth sits like a malevolent eye of sauron

        • Dennis Frank 6.3.1.2

          Utopianism?  Not many left doing that, even in the Greens.  Realpolitik prevails.  Peacemaking would be their primary motivation, I presume.  Non-violent conflict resolution is a Green Charter principle.

          "Earlier this year though, Fletchers did indicate its willingness to consider any serious offer to buy the 33 hectares in dispute. For the government, buying it back would be chicken feed. In dollar terms, the site has been valued by Auckland Council at $35.7 million for the land, and $36 million all up." http://werewolf.co.nz/2019/07/gordon-campbell-on-the-ihumatao-dispute/

          No reason the Greens ought not to lobby the govt on this basis.  Feed those chickens, as Gordon suggests.  Make the problem go away.  Too many other big problems for this govt to focus on.

          • Dukeofurl 6.3.1.2.1

            What about the houses for the iwi under the Fletcher plans.

            Lots a green space for Auckland doesnt give them anything.

            The cash amount is small but it would cause a huge financial headache in relativity payments for the large iwi who have settled previously.

            There has been two top ups already last one being   something like $500 mill.

            This little iwi getting so much  if the land is returned would mean large iwi  would be in line to get so much more

            • Dennis Frank 6.3.1.2.1.1

              Yeah, I get all that.  Coalition faces a big negotiating challenge.  Has to create win/win all around the table.  Willie & the local MP ought to focus on how to get both niece & uncle what they want, and if their conversations today don't have that focus, they're wasting time.

              Me, I’m waiting for Winston to take a position. Even if the Labour Maori caucus agrees a resolution based on local negotiations succeeding, the govt needs him to endorse it.

              • Dukeofurl

                Niece and uncle?

                Its a small iwi , not one with dozens of marae.  Im sure they have spent many  days of meetings over the years in discussions involving the whole iwi over this. Its seems a few are against the majority consensus. It happens but most iwi dont have the Green party using the issue as a political tool

                • mauī

                  Purely guess work on your part unless you've been privy to the discussions.

                • Dennis Frank

                  I see their relationship as key – since they lead the two parties involved in the lack of consensus.  It is unusual for family members to be politically divided in this particular way.  If niece and uncle had been able to agree, I doubt they'd have spent the past four years as leaders of the opposed factions.

                  I respect their respective principled positions, of course.  But the two Labour MPs have to try forging a consensus position by breaking that four-year long process log-jam.  If they can't, it's up to the minister (Mahuta), and if she can’t the PM and/or Winston will have to have a go.

            • Brigid 6.3.1.2.1.2

              "This little iwi getting so much redress if the land is returned would mean large iwi  would be in line to get so much more also seek the return of their land"

              Fify

          • Stuart Munro. 6.3.1.2.2

            There's nothing realpolitick about neoliberalism – it simply doesn't work. It's a splendid vehicle for corruption but worse than useless for service delivery. Pragmatism of any kind requires measures that work, neoliberalism doesn't qualify.

            • CHCoff 6.3.1.2.2.1

              If you're really keen……. a NZ citizen dollar that when spent on participating NZ owned and operating businesses, who are part of business associations that rate, grade and hold to account standards in their respective industries (with oversite by political party parliament to that), helping to elect such association representatives in the third of parliament seats that is allocated to the citizen dollar, would go an awful long way to replacing the rorting with value driven business lobbying, thus removing the neo from liberalism/conservatism & going a long way to taming that problem you mentioned, & ultimately bring markets more up to the level of the intelligence of modern technology that is omnipresent in daily life.

        • mauī 6.3.1.3

          That wouldn't be a bad policy if they were to head down that track. 

          What's better… land in the hands of dispassionate people whose goal is to see a profit in 5 years or land in the hands of people who are interested in community and what it might achieve across generations.

  7. Cinny 7

    Am recovering from gales of laughter.  simon is on The Nation touting his new message… 'it's all about you'.

    • Trey 7.1

      Even better than that he has regurgitated the George Bush statement from 2000 on the "soft bigotry of low education" that Bush used in a speech to the NAACP that marked the launching of the No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act.

      The phrase tried to blame the difference of various racial groups on "standardised tests" solely on teacher expectations whilst ignoring the structural inequities within schools and society as well as ignoring the racial bias evident in the examinations themselves.

      The term was quickly taken up by white supremacists groups and is thrown around whenever someone makes any link to inequity in society being related to inequity in education.

      Either Simon is as ignorant as he looks or the use of the phrase is the start of a push even further towards the right.

      • Stuart Munro. 7.1.1

        There's been an unhealthy trope on the right of borrowing things from the US instead of determining what is causing problems for local constituencies. Because the US is already much further to the right than NZ such borrowings tend to be extreme in our context, and of course they fail to resolve local issues because they have no relevance to them.

      • trey 7.1.2

        Sorry. Soft bigotry of low expectations was the line stolen from Bush, not education. I was thinking of it's impact on education 

    • AB 7.2

      It was funny – but there was something darker going on that I found sobering. Simon's stance on the response to CC is that 'something must be done', but it must not cost business anything. Using taxes as price signals was 'lazy'. Instead he was pushing 'research' (presumably taxpayer funded) to come up with magic techno-fixes which would be made available to industry. The whole existing landscape of wealth, power and dominance would be maintained as we dynamically worked through this mere blip in the road. 

      So it's pretty clear what the RW response will be to any climate crisis if/when one actually bites – protection for the few, and austerity for the many.  

      • gsays 7.2.1

        Heh, that would be research usually done by companies that had their R&D tax rebates nullified by Keys National crowd.

        You can not take these Tories seriously, the inconsistencies and obvious polling dependant stance on any issue, defies logic. 

    • Dukeofurl 7.3

      His PR people have told Bridges that he personally isnt popular so cant be used as the central character in  National advertising -like John Key was.

      2nd choice was an anoymous 'You' as Spot the Dog is no longer with us  ( last used by Telecom when their name was complete shit)

    • JohnSelway 7.4

      It's all about me Simon?! Wow, thanks man

    • Aka "It's all about me"!!    Lol lol I agree Cinny,  bloody funny.

  8. A 8

    The best thing anyone can do for our housing market is to let it fall. 

    Endless subsidies are now seen as a right by landlords when they were originally meant to allow low income earners a choice between HNZ/council housing and private market. 

    Two billion a year and counting has only made the situation worse.  NZ doesn't have a lack of housing it has a lack of AFFORDABLE housing.  Subsidies have driven up prices and required middle income earners to become beneficiaries (Accommodation Supplement) to afford rents.

    I happen to know a few people homeless (all disabled and in need of specific housing to meet their needs).  I'd rather people live in caravans etc until the price is driven down by loss of demand then perpetual funding of this bubble.  We need to seriously consider facilitating trailer park type living and give money to disabled to buy their own place.  That's where the money should be going.

     

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.1

      I happen to know a few people homeless (all disabled and in need of specific housing to meet their needs).

      And how many Kiwibuild houses  meet the Lifemark standard?  How many of the new state houses?  https://www.lifemark.co.nz/

      I'm not so sure about trailerparks A. The few Peter and I occasionally stay at (we much prefer wild parkingwink) that have a number of permanents can become miserable little toxic Peyton Places.  You only need two or three forming a clique and they can make life unbearable for those who just want to live quietly.  I know of one elderly caravan dweller who was targeted by the self appointed camp commandants who decided her practice of feeding the birds around her site was an offense to all.  These were other caravan /motorhome dwellers with nothing better to do than be arseholes.  Folks living cheek by jowl and having to share ablution blocks and kitchens….?  Crucible living.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.2

      Agree with letting it fall, but prefer mass investment in state housing rather than trailer parks etc.

      The banks and successive governments have allowed our entire economy to be redirected towards bank profits via mortgage credit, with no concern for the social cost.

  9. Incognito 9

    In law he [Simon Bridges] could help and effect change for small groups of people.

    As a Crown prosecutor, how many people did he ‘help’?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114554275/simon-bridges-opens-national-conference

    • Dukeofurl 9.1

      His job for the local prosecutors was the  run of the mill criminal cases.

      His wife introducing him  and speech was an intriguing showing of her  work as his  media  minder.

      • Incognito 9.1.1

        Ta

        So, his job was to put criminals behind bars of prisons run by Serco? He wasn’t working for the UN fighting for Human Rights or anything like that?

        I suppose putting the baddies behind bars is ‘helping’ the goodies, to make them feel safer in their over-valued homes. What I have read of the rhetoric of the opening speeches so far is predictable BAU and another pathetic pitch to middle NZ. It’ll be interesting to see if any blue-green flavours or vapours will be wafting through the conference or more religious-conservative stuff; after all, they are in Christchurch (cf. 15 March).

        You deserve better!

      • Sacha 9.1.2

        Run of the mill sounds right. What an untalented little man.

  10. Fireblade 10

    Clap, clap.

  11. Dennis Frank 11

    Still sharp sometimes…  "Politically speaking, the government cannot hope to continue to play the role of Pontius Pilate in this dispute. After all, the Crown was the agent of the original chain of events that eventually delivered this land into Fletchers’ hands. Leadership would start from a recognition of the basic historical injustice."

    "Moreover, a Crown re-purchase from Fletchers would not necessarily become a millstone, much as the government may fear landing themselves in the middle of another Ngapuhi-style dispute. There would also be fears within government of setting a precedent for intervening in any business development that hasn’t been validated by a prior Treaty settlement. Tough. Them’s the breaks if New Zealand is serious about regarding the Treaty as a living document."

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2019/07/gordon-campbell-on-the-ihumatao-dispute/

    So I'm tempted to predict that the PM will return from her Pacific sojourn intent on resolving the issue.  Hands off didn't work.  Urgency will be paramount if the protest leader's prediction of upward of ten thousand arriving this weekend comes true.  Dithering in the face of such numbers would cost this govt the next election.  Why?  It would create the perception that they are no better than National.

    • Dukeofurl 11.1

      Yes , the worlds problems can all be solved by just turning back the clock and 'europeans going back to where they came from'

      • SPC 11.1.1

        The Maori land was given by the government to the Wallace family to farm – which they did for over a 100 years. Fletchers then bought the land when it was recntly zoned for housing. 

        Equating the idea of the government buying the land, and establishing a permanent reserve on some of the land (given its historic significance) and otherwise matching the housing deal offered iwi, with a threat to the presence of Europeans speaks to a sense of threatened privilege of Trumpian proportions.

    • Ad 11.2

      Prime Minister has opened her mouth to form a trap where Fletchers can now demand pretty much any price they want, valued at whatever keeps this out of a massive High Court judicial review which pulls apart this moronic political intervention.

      Top work from the Greens for propping up Fletchers, throwing their own Minister Sage under a bus, and stopping houses being built in a suburb that needs it most.

      Jackson and Sage will dish out a deal in a big fat envelope, and the traveling white-guilt factory will move on to another town.  

      It will consign the iwi to no house built anywhere near their marae for multiple decades, while inside that marae the young ones shaft their elders again and again and again.

      • Dennis Frank 11.2.1

        Gosh, I thought I was the cynical one.  Let's hope for a better outcome, huh?  If it pans out like that I'll be just as caustic as you…

        • Ad 11.2.1.1

          Can you see any houses being built in Mangere now?

          Or anywhere else in the country near Maori title?

          • Dennis Frank 11.2.1.1.1

            I see no point in jumping too quickly to such conclusions.  I do understand that the signal sent will be alarming many though.  People will just have to adapt to whichever changing circumstances get produced by any resolution produced.  I'd advise caution in regard to extrapolating from this case.  Just as likely to be unique as one of a bunch…

            • Ad 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Nothing is unique in law, because it all comes down to precedent. Everyone except the protesting bunch is now working to keep this out of the High Court. I hope you can see that.

              All you have to do is put yourself in the shoes of two entities: Crown Law, and Fletcher Residential's legal team. What are their strategies? It's not hard to plot them out.

              The first is the Foreshore and Seabed bill, and protest, and political reaction. PM held firm, took the political consequences, achieved the policy outcomes that enabled the stability of New Zealand and, still did 3 terms of good for us. 

              The second is the entire northland iwi settlement process, and many other incomplete land claims, compared to the other major tribes. On this case now rests the full reputation of Andrew Little. All it takes is Marama Davidson and a busload of Usual Suspects and you can fuck up anything you like, and ensure nothing happens that will benefit Maori for generations.

              And then there's all the Crown-iwi housing partnerships that will never start or develop now.  I don't have any shares in Fletchers and don't work for them, but they built more state houses that housed generations of young New Zealanders than any other company. There's no more Maori partnerships after this unless there’s a miracle that pulls the government out of immolating. Which company will now trust Maori to have a mandate for any housing deal with a commercial partner? And the silence coming from Tainui and Kingitanga to rescue their own sub tribe is deafening.

              Every unique instance stands on a mountain of history.

               

              • Dennis Frank

                All good points, but.  I'm impressed by the demeanour of Pania, and the thousands she has pulled in to support her group.  So despite my inclination toward the deal being respected, and the seemingly ephemeral basis of the protest, I'm feeling the need to reserve judgment and give consensus a chance.

                If it was just Marama & co being idealistic, I'd be critical.  I get the impression there's more to the situation than that.

                • Ad

                  You have calmer judgement than the PM, the two trusts, and the Council put together. 

              • SPC

                1. The government was narrowly re-elected in 2005 (lost the majority of Maori seats and have only now reclaimed them). 

                2. Iwi are usually only involved in land deals if iwi land is involved (this case is not a common one). 

                3. And arguing that the young generation of Maori need to get out of the way for their own good because their old people/and Labour government know what's best for their future/the country as a whole …would not just hurt Labour with young Maori voters and re-energise the Maori Party it would also alienate other youth (given government for the baby boomer policy). 

                And then there's all the Crown-iwi housing partnerships that will never start or develop now. … There's no more Maori partnerships after this unless there’s a miracle that pulls the government out of immolating. Which company will now trust Maori to have a mandate for any housing deal with a commercial partner?

                Preaching, TINA to the regime for any other course leads to chaos and ruin. The rule of heaven, or hell. A block to any development is the end of all development mantra is religious in its zeal. 

      • Pat 11.2.2

        Doubt Fletchers are in a position to demand too much…what did they pay for the site?

        • Ad 11.2.2.1

          Buying directly off Fletchers by the Crown is the only way Ardern can get out of this now, because it's the only way of getting the land for anything any version of Maori are seeking. 

          The process is the same as any other white grievance in a rich suburb:

          BANANA: Build Anything Nowhere Anywhere Near Anything, and pay the rich what they want.

          • Pat 11.2.2.1.1

            Fletchers are going to want out of this…esp after their performance over the past few years they cant afford another losing proposition nor can they afford to piss the gov off too much ….a deal will be done and one that saves face all round

            • Ad 11.2.2.1.1.1

              There's more pressure on other parties now. 

              Fletchers can just wait and double their price after every foolish media release by the protesters.

              • Pat

                Fletchers can wait…and watch their costs rise and projected returns disappear and risk being left with an almost impossible site…not to mention any inside running on future contracts

                • Ad

                  Oh sure there's pressure. They own their own supply chain, and the land, so there's no worries there. They have plenty of other blocks to get on with.

                  But there's now far more on the government, and Auckland Council, and the two trusts. 

              • Dennis Frank

                My guess is Fletchers won't play it like that – they'll want to preserve goodwill & their reputation.  A modest profit on their investment is likely & appropriate.  They've been signalling they're willing to sell at a reasonable price for quite a while.  Media reports have made that clear.

                But that is secondary.  Primary is Maori agreement on how to use the land.  The family divide has to be bridged over first, and since they have a track record of four years of failure to do that, someone decisive must break that impasse.  That's why Pania appealed to the PM.

                • Ad

                  No, Fletchers are primary as they have title. Mandated Maori already have agreement on how the land will be used. Fletchers can sit back, let the iwi fight it out in court inevitably, and make sure they get paid well.

                  There's no good will left on this site now. At minimum any housing deal with unstable Maori iwi will attract massively increased risk premiums for the following: 

                  – insurance

                  – access to site

                  – stakeholder management and communications

                  – completion bonds

                  – commercial risk

                  – government relations

                  – Maori consultation

                  – marketing

                  … and more, but you get the idea.

                • Wayne

                  Most of the land won’t go to iwi. It will mostly go into the existing public reserve with iwi co-governance. The major reason is that the government won’t want this to become a precedent for other treaty settlements, especially Ngapuhi.

                  The iwi (actually a hapu) will get the 25% of the land promised under the Fletchers deal.

                  • SPC

                    Sure. At times like this, one remembers it was Graham and Bolger who began the settlement process not the Rogernomics fan boys in Labour. 

              • SPC

                If you cannot talk sensibly about it, it is better to be say less than more. 

  12. Adrian Thornton 12

    and so it goes..



  13. millsy 13

    From the dark caverns of the right Twitter comes the idea that George Soros is funding the SOUL protestors.

  14. Morrissey 14

    "We found, ah, ah, insufficient evidence, ah, ah, of the President's culpability."

    The desperate DNC masterminds—Jerrold ("Pearl Harbor") Nadler, Adam Scheff, Charles Schumer, and the rest of that sorry bunch—made a major mistake when they put all their rotten eggs in the basket wielded by poor old muddle-headed Mueller. Thanks to their incompetence, we have five and a half more years of Trump to endure.

  15. David Mac 15

    It’s high time we stopped getting wealthy shuffling our addresses around. It serves so few of us well. Gutting my rental house and installing Euro appliances, Indonesian teak floors and Home & Garden bathrooms is adding false value. It’s still just a place to live.

    I win financially, I can up the rent to more than cover my renovation loan repayments. But does New Zealand win? I fear not.

    Genuinely adding value is not as simple as making my rental worth twice as much a week. My flash flat adds next to no value to our nation beyond a couple no longer having to wash their dishes by hand and my fat wallet. It’s shallow value.

    Our energies and efforts should be better placed.

    • David Mac 15.1

      Few of the 9 million are desperately searching for a comfortable affordable home in Sweden, they turn their efforts to Volvo, Swedish Match, ABB, Ericsson, Husqvarna, Saab, H&M, Alfa Laval, Electrolux, Ikea, Sandvik, Hasselblad, Koenigsegg, Scania instead.

      Shafting each other over a place to live is a crap way to make our country better.

    • Ad 15.2

      What policy and from whom are you complaining about?

      • David Mac 15.2.1

        Hi Ad, I just grabbed the mike and mouthed off, no policy.

        No complaints here, I lead a Huckleberry life. I'd like to see the chap that lives over behind my place presented with a few promising opportunities.

  16. joe90 16

    Focusing on the big things.

    *counsellors*

    • Sacha 16.1

      eh, squire?

      #prat

    • Ad 16.2

      I'd hope they apply the same discipline to Cabinet papers and briefings, as Prime Minister Helen Clark and Heather Simpson did. No paragraph ever started with 'however', for example.

      • Andre 16.2.1

        Come out of this office environment?

        • Ad 16.2.1.1

          Aye, well, but plenty of our laws fuck up over misplaced commas.

          Entire legal industries rise and fall like a breath on the weight of paragraph indents.

          Tax, and RMA, for example.

      • David Mac 16.2.2

        'However' is one of those stupid inclusions that indicates that all you've stated prior has the potential to be bullshit.

        It is the language of the buck passer.

        The wriggle room of "Well I didn't actually endorse the findings."

        It is a sanctuary only offered to those that are plugged into the Mother Ship.

        Others go broke.

    • Pete 16.3

      M.P. = Member of Parliament

      M.P.s = Member of Parliament.s?

      Ms.P. = Members of Parliament?

      It's all arbitrary. You do what God says, well Mogg anyway. I'd heard some of the speech from Johnson with the excitement of how they're going to make Britain the greatest place on the planet. Mogg's clearly shown his priorities and is onto one of the most critical issues facing the nation. Other stuff might take a while but at least they're going to write proper like. 

      • greywarshark 16.3.1

        Such a load of BS from Johnson and ilk.   He is all screwed up with the excitement of being determined to make a decision, which nobody else has been able to do.   Leave the EU with a hard Brexit.  

        As a well educated chap he would know The Charge of the Light Brigade – glory and death showing the valour and the colours and the stupidity of Britain.  And the story behind it, of a botched message, or a deliberately misunderstood one.   But NZ showed how you can bamboozle most of the people all of the time.

        Death or glory is Toad's watchword as he battles (with the help of his supporters) to make Toad Hall great again in Wind in the Willows.  Toad is so reminiscent of Boorish.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErxdKKurIDg

    • Poission 16.4

      The put downs ,the put downs.

      Such an arriviste.

      I’m told his grandparents bought their own furniture.

  17. CHCoff 17

    Wonder if it would not be best if the All Blacks lost everything this year (traitor!).

    Yes, some recent successes get all the accolades, hyperbole and wall to wall coverage, and while for the most part it is not the players fault, i wonder if it is not sometimes making heroes out of all other things being equal, 'also rans', when it comes to the way NZ rugby has been run & governed.

    I wonder if behind it, NZ rugby is in abit of a pathetic state to the strong almost shared birth right culture that it provided and enjoyed in society. Although for many folks it was the radio for the most part, the Great Black Caps cricket world cup, that was the type of value in sport that rugby near use to provide to NZ annually. Although the wheels started to fall off gradually when the new model was introduced, it was still mostly obvious to everyone the strong health of the NZ rugby culture in a way that was a societal resource & recreation like no where else in the world.

    And that's one thing that was so great about the NZ Black Caps cricket world cup run, there was an unmistakable NZ way/reflection in the approach and play of the game. And despite the relatively thin coverage, and for a notable part, skeptical media coverage, the NZ public knew it and responded in kind. Win or lose, New Zealand was winning and won.

    It may be impossible to get the old All Blacks postion in world sport back now, but it's still possible to get the NZ game of rugby back. But it can not be obliterated at the top and grown on the ground at the same time i'd say.

  18. Morrissey 18

    Wonder if it would not be best if the All Blacks lost everything this year…

    Flashback to 1998! Flashback to 1998!

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