Open mike 27/07/2022

103 comments on “Open mike 27/07/2022 ”

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1. Incognito 1

   27 July 2022 at 9:02 am

   Was Andrea Vance a little liberal with the truth or did she ‘research’ just enough to suit her narrative?

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/ex-collins-staffer-queries-vance-book-on-nats
   • observer 1.1

     27 July 2022 at 9:28 am

     That's a very good read, and appears disarmingly frank, and credible (though of course the writer has axes to grind).

     In particular, this confession should be sent to every journalist, and anyone else who wants to talk up National's economic credentials in future …

     Many people in National Leader's Office, the leader, other MPs and the campaign team privately agreed with criticisms of National’s debt target. More than one MP and senior staff said that we had a real issue with over economic narrative and credibility.
   • Belladonna 1.2

     27 July 2022 at 12:47 pm

     While the details change a bit – I think that both pieces outline a profound lack of trust between the senior leadership team in Parliament (and by extension their staffers), and really, really poor communication – both skills and the ability to actually talk to each other.
   • Chris 1.3

     27 July 2022 at 3:05 pm

     There's nothing in Johnson's piece that shows Vance was wrong. At best she merely highlights a difference of opinion; at worst there's nothing contradictory between what Johnson and Vance say.
     • Incognito 1.3.1

       27 July 2022 at 4:50 pm

       An insider gives a different account of events inside the tent and says the following about an outsider who was not even near the tent at the time:

       I believe there is much to challenge in Vance’s book.

       …

       There is only light coverage of the fiscal plan issue in the Vance book but what is said, […], completely misrepresents what actually happened.

       …

       This is totally wrong.

       …

       To suggest, as Andrea Vance does, […], is ridiculous.

       That’s more than a difference of opinions, it is a different set of accounts that make for quite a different story.

       This raises many questions about Vance’s version of accounts of what may or may not have happened inside the National Party tent and suggests, at least to me, that nothing should and can be taken at face value when it comes to political pundits writing political novels “packed with incident and drama, meanness and madness”, as Steve Braunias says.
2. Molly 2

   27 July 2022 at 10:52 am

   No impact on women they said when changing legislation.

   #NoDebate was successful in framing questions for clarity and discussion on possible impacts as harmful 'debate'.

   Reported as "distasteful and repugnant" "concerns about the transgender community", rather than requests for confirmation of women's single-SEX spaces:

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dunedin-mayor-slams-concerns-about-transgender-people-at-swimming-pool-as-repugnant/OGPQSUV7PPYKAK2AEZMN7UDJSM/

   Dunedin mayor Aaron Hawkins has called a woman's concerns about the transgender community "distasteful and repugnant" after her submission to the city council.

   Dunedin nurse Jennifer Scott was concerned about transgender women using the female changing rooms at Moana Pool.

   She asked for the council to ensure designated gender-based private areas, such as changing rooms and toilets, would be upheld in all facilities funded or owned by the council.

   After her submission, Hawkins, who appeared shaken, told Scott her submission was "hard to listen to, and it was at very least distasteful, if not repugnant".

   Lack of discussion and clarity has lead to inconsistent practice in the council owned facility.

   Councillor Jules Radich told Scott he was unaware Moana Pool staff were directing "anatomically male" patrons to use the female-designated changing rooms, and said he agreed the use was inappropriate.

   He asked how long the practice had been happening.

   Scott said transgender women were being directed to the family changing areas, but if a staff member was not aware of the situation, patrons would sometimes enter the women's changing room.
   • weka 2.1

     27 July 2022 at 11:11 am

     is the family changing area already mixed sex?
     • Belladonna 2.1.1

       27 July 2022 at 12:31 pm

       Usually yes – so that Dads can help their small children get changed at the pool.

       Although it’s not always issue free – some women don’t like men in family changing areas (e.g. to change a nappy).
       https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/106167488/wellington-dad-barred-from-parents-room-at-queensgate-mall-by-another-parent

       A good mate who was a SAH dad found it really tricky to navigate. On the one hand – if he needed to change a nappy – he needed access; on the other, he didn’t want to make anyone feel uncomfortable.
       And our local pool doesn’t have a family changing area – just mens/womens – so he had to help his toddler daughters get changed into togs in the passageway – which wasn’t exactly ideal.
     • Sabine 2.1.2

       27 July 2022 at 4:06 pm

       Not sure about dunedin, but yes in Henderson pools and wave pools in Tauranga it seems allow entire males – who knows about their ID – into family changing areas. My friend takes her grandson swimming in Tauranga when he is there for a visit or Akl when she is there for a visit. Both have decided that changing at home is a better option. It seems that they were not impressed the last time they were at the Wave Pool, left a comment at the reception, but hey……….things complaining about men in their changing rooms should just get some re-education about how marginalised and vulnerable men are in the mens changing rooms.
   • weka 2.2

     27 July 2022 at 11:12 am

     Aaron Hawkins shaken, imagine what 15 year old girl who's a rape survivor might feel if there was a Wi Spa like incident. Or a man self IDing and bringing a camera into the room. Don't know how liberal men became so illiterate in feminism.
     • Puckish Rogue 2.2.1

       27 July 2022 at 12:03 pm

       Want something horrific to watch on a similar subject?

       The German Green party don’t come out of it very well but I’m sure it was more widespread

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XfKwxUoRI0
       • Anker 2.2.1.1

         27 July 2022 at 2:07 pm

         Pretty hard to watch PR. But needs to be exposed.

         Its about safeguarding.
         • Joe90 2.2.1.1.1

           27 July 2022 at 3:02 pm

           There's been quite a bit written about Helmut Kentler and his depravity since this first came to light.

           https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/past-pedophile-links-haunt-german-green-party-a-899544.html

           https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/07/26/the-german-experiment-that-placed-foster-children-with-pedophiles

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Kentler
           • Sabine 2.2.1.1.1.1

             27 July 2022 at 4:10 pm

             PIE (Paedophile Information Exchange )in England comes to mind too.

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange#:~:text=One%2Dtime%20treasurer%20of%20PIE,in%20British%20schools%20in%201996.

             in fact it seems Stonewall is an extention on that, what with their believe that 2 year old can be 'trans' and of course 'consent' to being trans.

             https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/25/stonewall-forced-clarify-tweet-said-two-year-olds-could-transgender/

             What else do you think little kids could possibly consent too?
           • Anker 2.2.1.1.1.2

             27 July 2022 at 4:56 pm

             Thanks Joe 90 for the links
       • Sabine 2.2.1.2

         27 July 2022 at 4:23 pm

         Yes, the German government did not care much about child abuse. Can confirm.
     • Anker 2.2.2

       27 July 2022 at 12:11 pm

       As someone who experienced an attempted sexual assault in a change room, it would terrify me. Even hearing that spaces such as change rooms may be open to male bodied people would make me think twice about entering such change rooms. But who would care about women and girls and their feelings eh? Just like the female swimmers who had to put up with Lia Thomas a trans women in their change room.

       We just need to bunch up and be kind and make way for these people who believe that their gender trumps biological sex.

       BTW FSU are reporting the case of a mortician who is in trouble with his employer for mis gendering a cadaver.
3. Poission 3

   27 July 2022 at 11:48 am

   US vice president emancipates the pronoun.

   https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1551988896426328064
   • Sabine 3.1

     27 July 2022 at 4:12 pm

     Oh please let the 'assigned female at birth' in our government do the same every time they have an interview. Just for shits n giggles.
4. Robert Guyton 4

   27 July 2022 at 12:14 pm

   James Shaw – candid, honest.

   "If I’m honest, I’ve found it hard to get the mix right between being a minister and a Co-leader and, quite clearly given the vote last weekend, I haven’t quite nailed it."

   https://www.facebook.com/JamesShawMP/posts/pfbid0U4SousyvYLe3szGfNyECnBP9YktsYi5BbiXJefiX74BBdyqyUZutK3p1si3aANB4l

   https://www.facebook.com/JamesShawMP/posts/616637403162496

   [non-embedded link added for those that can’t see the embed]
   • Sacha 4.1

     27 July 2022 at 12:16 pm

     link?
     • weka 4.1.1

       27 July 2022 at 1:06 pm

       it's there now.
       • Sacha 4.1.1.1

         27 July 2022 at 2:30 pm

         I'm not seeing it
         • Incognito 4.1.1.1.1

           27 July 2022 at 2:46 pm

           Neither can I, in the front end, but I know the link is there reading the comment in the back end. This is something weird I’ve come across many times and it seems to only affect FB links. Many times I wanted to growl people here for not linking when in fact the link is there but invisible to me!?
           • arkie 4.1.1.1.1.1

             27 July 2022 at 2:51 pm

             What appears to be an image is an embedded facebook post not unlike twitter embeds. If one clicks on the 'read more', the time stamp or facebook logo one can follow the link to it's origin on FB..
             • Incognito …

               27 July 2022 at 2:56 pm

               Nothing ‘appears’, there’s absolutely nothing to suggest even that there’s a link or whatever. All I can see is the comment text. As I said, it’s weird but I can live with it 😉
               • arkie …

                 27 July 2022 at 3:03 pm

                 Ah, that is very weird. Apologies.
               • Sacha …

                 27 July 2022 at 3:06 pm

                 I too can only see text, no image or link or placeholder.

                 Do not have a FB account so chances are it would show me nothing when I clicked through anyway.

                 Ah, can see and read the FB embed on the mobile theme of this site.
                 • Incognito …

                   27 July 2022 at 3:15 pm

                   You don’t need to have a FB account to see & click on FB links, same as you don’t need a Twitter account to click on links to Twitter/tweets. Worst thing that can happen is that you run into a login wall or something. I suspect it is something to do with browser and/or device security settings.
                   • Sacha …

                     1 August 2022 at 2:31 pm

                     Depending on the FB customer's privacy settings, some/many posts load blank for non-customers.

                     Whether the embed shows may/not be related to this.
                   • Incognito []

                     1 August 2022 at 2:37 pm

                     IIRC, I tested 2 different browsers on 2 different devices (PCs) and only 1/4 showed the FB link in the front-end. In the greater scheme of things I don’t rate this as a critical an important issue for TS.
                 • weka …

                   27 July 2022 at 3:18 pm

                   Ah, can see and read the FB embed on the mobile theme of this site.

                   What OS are you using?
           • weka 4.1.1.1.1.2

             27 July 2022 at 3:10 pm

             I could see it on my laptop earlier, can’t see it now on my phone.

             the embed of FB posts in comments is new yeah?
             • Incognito …

               27 July 2022 at 3:18 pm

               IDK if it’s new because I tend to read almost everything in the back-end and I tend to not click on FB links. I find it hard enough as it is to keep up here some days …
               • weka …

                 27 July 2022 at 3:21 pm

                 when I was helping Robert the other day to copy and paste FB links I saw it embed and tbought, oh FB is embedding now. Don't think I'd seen that before.
                 • Incognito …

                   27 July 2022 at 3:23 pm

                   I can’t even remember what I had for breakfast this morning 🙁
                   • weka …

                     27 July 2022 at 3:25 pm

                     lol, I have that trouble too.
                   • weka …

                     27 July 2022 at 3:26 pm

                     I remember the FB embed because it's quite elegant, I was surprised that it wasn't the overblown embed that's happened in the past (in posts?)
                 • weka …

                   27 July 2022 at 3:27 pm

                   test

                   https://www.facebook.com/JamesShawMP/posts/616637403162496
                   • Incognito …

                     27 July 2022 at 5:29 pm

                     My test:

                     https://www.facebook.com/JamesShawMP/posts/616637403162496
                   • Sacha …

                     1 August 2022 at 2:34 pm

                     I see nothing but the word 'test' for your post but also get clickable link text in Incognito's post. Noi images/previews in either.

                     FF on MacOS.
                   • weka []

                     1 August 2022 at 2:57 pm

                     ta. Incog’s is a link in the clear. Mine is the embed. Lynn has said that the front end viewing problem is on the user side. I will try and add a clear link as I see FB embeds, but feel free to ask the commenter to that as well. They need to use the link tag in the comment box. People may or may not know how to do that.
                   • Sacha …

                     1 August 2022 at 3:09 pm

                     Would be the problem on the user side be script-blocking all things FB in my browser? If so, shouldn't there be some graceful degradation that shows a missing element rather than nothing?
             • weka …

               27 July 2022 at 3:20 pm

               correction, I can see it on my phone on the Mobile version but not the Desktop version.
   • AB 4.2

     27 July 2022 at 3:11 pm

     Maybe Robert, though it could be difficult to convince people of that. They are perhaps more likely to misinterpret transparency as dysfunction – as CH Smith notes today:

     Nassim Taleb of Black Swan and Antifragile fame recently noted the critical role of transparency in systemic resilience. He observed that "a system seems all the more dysfunctional when it is transparent."
     In other words, when we see all the petty squabbling, the clash of competing self-interests and the conflicts arising from advocacy, we reckon that system is dysfunctional and doomed.
     But that is the healthy system, for what's at stake is visible to all, as is the process of all the stakeholders negotiating some agreement on how to proceed.
     Corruption requires opacity … Opaque hierarchical systems appear tranquil and well-managed because the conflicts, self-interest and corruption are hidden. But opacity and rigid hierarchies are systemic weaknesses…
     • Robert Guyton 4.2.1

       27 July 2022 at 3:23 pm

       That's right, AB and you are right to say, "it could be difficult to convince people of that" – that's the nub of the problem faced by any organisation. Discretion is the answer but not easy to employ successfully. Word-smithery helps also.
       • weka 4.2.1.1

         27 July 2022 at 3:30 pm

         it's a good post from Shaw. I fully expect people to interpret it with ill intent. Shaw being weak and acquiescing to the children etc.
   • Ad 4.3

     27 July 2022 at 3:45 pm

     Tuiono is the last not withdraw.

     Week could still get interesting.
     • weka 4.3.1

       27 July 2022 at 3:59 pm

       Has JAG said anything?
     • Robert Guyton 4.3.2

       27 July 2022 at 4:50 pm

       He visited our home recently and I showed him around the forest, then off to the cafe for lunch.

       I think we're in for a calm week.
   • Jimmy 4.4

     27 July 2022 at 4:49 pm

     Seems like Teanau Tuiono cant make up his mind! Does he seriously think he could beat James Shaw in a vote? As a centre right voter, I would laugh my ass off if he did.

     Green Party MP Teanau Tuiono 'considering' a tilt at co-leadership – NZ Herald
     • Incognito 4.4.1

       27 July 2022 at 5:00 pm

       Nothing wrong with a contest of opinions unless they want to create an echo chamber filled with group-think, i.e., a group-think tank.
     • Jester 4.4.2

       27 July 2022 at 7:25 pm

       Don't be stupid Jimmy, Tuiono won't stand against Shaw.
5. pat 5

   27 July 2022 at 1:43 pm

   GRRRRR…..

   "The Government is forging ahead with its income insurance scheme despite concerns about a lack of transparency and the impact on low-income earners, hiring senior staff to move ahead with its delivery."

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/govt-hires-for-income-insurance-scheme-despite-timing-concerns

   Time for a workers party
   • Poission 5.1

     27 July 2022 at 1:55 pm

     Treasury projected a transfer to the government of 1.1 billion in the first 1/4 and 4.3 billion in the first full year for this new tax.

     They will remove the jobseekers benefit and there is a limit of sixth months in the insurance.
     • pat 5.1.1

       27 July 2022 at 2:01 pm

       I doubt even this lot would be suicidal enough to remove Jobseeker in the initial implementation (I dont discount it in the future however)…but its not about employment in any case…yet more deception from the bloody politicians.
       • Poission 5.1.1.1

         27 July 2022 at 2:06 pm

         Jobseekers is still there,what is the 4.7 billion for?.
         • pat 5.1.1.1.1

           27 July 2022 at 2:22 pm

           More fodder for the financial markets….all pyramid schemes need ongoing buy in.
           • Poission 5.1.1.1.1.1

             27 July 2022 at 2:32 pm

             Newsroom says 3.5b,treasury budget update says 4.7b

                                                           2025 2026
             

             ACC levies 4,073 4,463
             Income insurance levies – – 1100 4,700

             Also looks like a 10% increase in ACC levys (increased admin for insurance levy)
             • pat …

               27 July 2022 at 3:10 pm

               2.77% of wages and salaries (aggregate) comes in at a touch over 4 billion…am guessing the 3.5 accounts for the upper cap.

               https://figure.nz/chart/1WBMWhdK83UkwktV
     • weka 5.1.2

       27 July 2022 at 3:12 pm

       There will be people not eligible so that can’t remove JS.
       • pat 5.1.2.1

         27 July 2022 at 3:17 pm

         They could…its only existed for less than a decade.
         • weka 5.1.2.1.1

           27 July 2022 at 3:26 pm

           let me rephrase. Labour won't remove JS because the insurance scheme won't cover everyone.

           Nact on the other hand…
           • pat 5.1.2.1.1.1

             27 July 2022 at 3:34 pm

             The details are yet to be announced….but the insurance scheme COULD cover unemployment and an alternative benefit(s) could cover illness/disability…as in days gone by.

             …but as said, this isnt about (un)employment.
             • weka …

               27 July 2022 at 3:38 pm

               from memory, the only people that would get it are those that pay into it and lose their jonb. So if you are a student and then you graduate and can't get a job, you would get JS, not the insurance.
               • pat …

                 27 July 2022 at 4:53 pm

                 As said the details are still unknown, but one of the concerns is also the possible ineligibility of the self employed.

                 These are the reasons I say if you are concerned about the impacts of unemployment this is NOT a scheme to address it….and that is because its not about unemployment.
                 • weka …

                   27 July 2022 at 6:19 pm

                   totally. It's Labour's plan to stop more people from slipping into the underclasses, while they leave a big chunk of people in the underclass.
                   • pat …

                     27 July 2022 at 6:28 pm

                     And remove the government (any government) one step away from pressure over unemployment implications…..meanwhile the investor class have their investments supported by worker inputs.

                     Neoliberalism writ large.
                   • weka …

                     27 July 2022 at 6:38 pm

                     yep. Will help with the neoliberal vote I guess.
           • arkie 5.1.2.1.1.2

             27 July 2022 at 3:42 pm

             I too feel that Labours seeming commitment to this income insurance scheme along with the two-tier COVID payments, does signal a lack of real concern for those on low incomes. How long have they had to action the WEAG recommendations?

             Child Poverty Action Group has expressed fears it would bake in pre-existing inequality and act as a regressive tax on lower-income families, while also undercutting any move towards long overdue reform of the welfare system.

             ‘A two-tier welfare system established under a social unemployment insurance scheme would likely exacerbate poor mental wellbeing among welfare benefit recipients and strengthen stigma for benefit recipients,’ CPAG social security spokesman Mike O’Brien said.

             https://www.newsroom.co.nz/robertson-looks-back-to-the-future-with-income-insurance-scheme
             • weka …

               27 July 2022 at 4:03 pm

               yep. Slap in the face for people that lost their jobs for health reasons and are subsisting on SLP, or worse, on JS. Five years and they can't even bring themselves to name those people outloud.
   • Sabine 5.2

     27 July 2022 at 4:17 pm

     Interesting. In Germany we have this system since ever.

     You pay x amount of your income into the unemployment tax. Your boss does the same. When unemployed one is entitled to 60% of their last net income for 6 month, then a review in which one has to prove that they did not find a job despite search and another 6 month is granted, after that it is Hartz 4 which is the equivalent of social welfare.

     This unemployment scheme is for all income groups. But it would make totally sense in NZ to only apply it to those that last need it. It would also make sense for Labour to create something that can very easily be perverted by National.
     • pat 5.2.1

       27 July 2022 at 5:12 pm

       Since Bismark apparently….and it has a number of differences from what has been outlined here (to date)….

       The Hartz laws represented the most important structural reforms since 1969. They were implemented between 2003 and 2005 and introduced the following measures:

       Hartz law I (2003) Required the salaried employees to register as job-seekers as soon as they became aware of the date of termination of their employment agreement; Established job recovery assistance measures, as well as the requalification measure mechanism intended for the older job-seekers; Enabled the job-seekers who hadn’t worked long enough to be entitled to the unemployment benefits to receive continuing training aid; Created temporary placement offices; Enabled the employment offices to entrust, by way of contract, the management of back-to-work jobs to third parties; Softened the regulation relating to dismissals; Required from the job-seekers a greater mobility, considered as appropriate.

       Hartz law II (2003) Established business start-up aid (creation of the self-employed status); Created service vouchers for domestic employment jobs; Amended certain provisions relating to mini-jobs and midi-jobs; Set the conditions for creating the future Job-Centers.

       Hartz law III (2004) Reorganized the employment public service

       Hartz law IV (2005) Reformed the unemployment benefit payment system: reduction of the length of time during which unemployment benefits are paid to 12 months (unemployment benefit I); Merged the long term unemployment benefit and the social aid into a single unemployment benefit II; Established a social aid reserved to the job-seekers unable to work.

       https://www.unedic.org/sites/default/files/2020-01/Insight_Germany-unemployment-insurance-system-ENG_decembre_2019.pdf

       Im unclear where the German premiums end up in that system…here the proposal is an ACC type investment fund.
       • Sabine 5.2.1.1

         28 July 2022 at 8:01 am

         Hartz IV was the final and most radical of these laws. It bound together all social welfare allowances – from day-to-day requirements, to school books to clothing, all of which had to be applied for separately – into one flat sum, and named it "Unemployment Benefit II." This became the allowance an unemployed person receives after their official "Unemployment Benefit I," an allowance based on their previous income, ran out after a certain period.

         Hartz IV centralized both these benefits through the Bundesagentur fuer Arbeit (Federal Labor Office), rather than separate regional offices. Its intention was to prioritize getting people back to work, in whatever form: temporary, part-time or full-time.

         https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/social-security/unemployment-benefits-germany-arbeitslosengeld#:~:text=Your%20benefit%20will%20be%2060,just%20like%20a%20regular%20wage.

         And of course what one gets today under Hartz4 as a lumpsum is less then what it was when one individually applied for 'fringe benefits'. Maybe that is what made that reform so 'important'. The reduction of services and pay out.

         Disclaimer: I have a disabled brother on HArtz4 who will every now end then be invited to the unemployment office to prove he is still disabled. Something he did not have to do before Hartz4.

         However unemployemnt pay outs in Germany are capped:

         ow much unemployment benefit I (Arbeitlosengeld I) will I get?

         The amount of benefit you receive is based on your average net pay in the 12 months before you became unemployed (known as the “assessment period”). Your benefit will be 60% of your previous average wage (or 67% if you have children), up to a maximum of 7.050 euros per month in West Germany and 6.750 euros in East Germany.

         Your benefit payments will then be subject to taxes and social security contributions, just like a regular wage. These will automatically be taken from your benefit by the employment office before it is transferred to your bank account at the end of each month. This includes deductions for:

         • Statutory health insurance (7,3 – 8,2% of your benefit)
         • Pension insurance (9,35%)
         • Unemployment insurance (1,2%)
         • Long-term care insurance (1,525%)
         • Income tax

         vs here in NZ were it on the surface seems that he only ones benefitting from this payout are the very well to do people in Government, NGO, Charities and the likes that may or may not lose jobs in the future if the government were to change. I am not sure as are many others here that it will benefit that Janitor or Service person from Poorland NZ.

         Both unemployment benefits and Hartz4 are granted by the Unemployment Agency, whilst there was a Socialwelfare Agency to deal with those that needed different aid in the past.
6. Poission 6

   27 July 2022 at 2:15 pm

   Australia cpi comes in at 6.1 (the quarter at 1.8 down from 2.1)

   Food was 7.3.

   The next 1/4 will have the large electricity increases in it.

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-27/inflation-figured-to-be-released/101269692
7. Anne 7

   27 July 2022 at 3:54 pm

   Congratulations to Dr Ashley Bloomfield.

   He has announced that he has sent a directive to 14 Local Body Councils to fluoridate their water supplies. Great news. As a former School Dental Nurse this is a special concern for me.

   Through stupidity – and once again listening to disinformation – many councils have badly failed their communities and their children in particular. The rate of decay in children's teeth has skyrocketed in recent decades and that can lead to all manner of on-going health problems. Contrary to the claims of the nay-sayers, fluoridation is totally safe and the process is carried out under strict protocols.

   I expect the "Freedumb Crowd" to holler and shout. Let em scream. Sometimes for the health and safety of everybody, such directives and indeed legislation if required have to be made.
   • In Vino 7.1

     27 July 2022 at 7:06 pm

     Fully agree, Anne.

     In 1970 as a 1st-yr teacher, I asked a 3rd-form class who had a filling in their teeth. Only 2 or 3 raised a hand. My town had been adding fluoridating water for some years. When I was in the 3rd form, we all had mouths filled with amalgam..

     But since then my perception is that the great evil of SUGAR has doubled its input, and now even fluoride cannot cope.

     To take away the fluoride is idiotic.

     But to do nothing about excessive sugar everywhere is even more idiotic.

     Where is the reduce sugar campaign? Worn down by unfavourable coverage in capitalist media controlled by big companies like sugar manufacturers?
     • Anne 7.1.1

       27 July 2022 at 7:17 pm

       Where is the reduce sugar campaign? Worn down by unfavourable coverage in capitalist media controlled by big companies like sugar manufacturers?

       Another ugly side effect of neoliberalism. Money grubbing corporates and their equally grubby media counterparts dominating the discourse. I venture to suggest there is also a link to the internet which is awash with batshit crazy conspiracy theories.
   • Molly 7.2

     28 July 2022 at 8:39 am

     Anecdotal, but relevant.

     Rural water, so definitely no fluoride.

     All four children no fillings. Oldest now 26 years.

     Are there any downsides to universal fluoride in drinking water that people should be aware of?
     • Incognito 7.2.1

       28 July 2022 at 8:54 am

       Some people who drink and smoke all their lives live to a grand old age.

       https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2019/11/how-some-people-live-to-be-110-despite-smoking-and-drinking-their-way-through-life.html

       Are there any downsides to drinking and smoking that people should be aware of?
       • Sanctuary 7.2.1.1

         28 July 2022 at 8:58 am

         I plan to take up pipe smoking on my 90th birthday.
         • Robert Guyton 7.2.1.1.1

           28 July 2022 at 10:19 am

           Will you inhale?
           • Sanctuary 7.2.1.1.1.1

             28 July 2022 at 10:37 am

             Absolutely. And smooth that rough throat with a nice whisky.
             • Robert Guyton …

               28 July 2022 at 10:41 am

               As they fasten the bungy-rubbers to your ankles?
       • Molly 7.2.1.2

         28 July 2022 at 4:01 pm

         My FIL started smoking at 6, and kept on doing so till 93.

         His sister, adult smoker, developed throat cancer in her 70s.

         We used to joke about his lungs being leather bellows. When he died, we gave his almost full tobacco pack to his smoking buddy at the home – a grateful 92 yr old.
     • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.2

       28 July 2022 at 10:08 am

       Are there any downsides to universal fluoride in drinking water that people should be aware of?

       Thing is…such is the extremely polarised nature of the issue, any discussion of potential 'cons' is going to elicit the usual reaction from the 'pro' group. All is binary dontcha know.

       Wiki has a very good page on the issue…bearing in mind that only a 5.7 % of the human race has access to the benefits of artificial fluoridation through water supply. Some countries have naturally high levels of fluoride in the water and it has to be removed to make it safe.

       This page explores water fluoridation in various countries in some depth and is well worth a read. The one that caught my eye was what happened in Israel. From 2002 water fluridation was required by law…but this was repealed in 2014 on the grounds that…

       "Only some 1% of the water is used for drinking, while 99% of the water is intended for other uses (industry, agriculture, flushing toilets etc.). There is also scientific evidence that fluoride in large amounts can lead to damage to health. When fluoride is supplied via drinking water, there is no control regarding the amount of fluoride actually consumed, which could lead to excessive consumption. Supply of fluoridated water forces those who do not so wish to also consume water with added fluoride."[19] Many in the medical and dental communities in Israel criticized the decision as a mistake

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country

       All very well putting fluoride in the water…but are you going to get your target demographic to drink it?

       Interestingly…our very own Mystery of Health has a flyer on Vitamin D during pregnancy.

       https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAQQw7AJahcKEwjgtIOIiZr5AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.health.govt.nz%2Fsystem%2Ffiles%2Fdocuments%2Ftopic_sheets%2Fvitamin-d-factsheet-dec20.pdf&psig=AOvVaw3h3EHtKN8FuQVBY36ZPXEH&ust=1659045640611031 (Sorry for the ugly link..but following the directive not to embed.)

       Low Vitamin D levels during pregnancy can lead to poor bones and teeth in the child. Is the checking of maternal Vitamin D SOP in New Zealand for all pregnant women?

       Its complicated…not binary at all.

       (Anecdotally Molly…three kids…youngest 30…rural raised on unfiltered tank water and bugger all fillings. While we didn't have a sugar ban…fizzy drinks were special occasion only and I most definitely never had them sucking on bottles of anything other than water. Likewise I ensured I ate healthy when pregnant. )
       • Robert Guyton 7.2.2.1

         28 July 2022 at 10:20 am

         "Thing is…such is the extremely polarised nature of the issue, any discussion of potential 'cons' is going to elicit the usual reaction from the 'pro' group. All is binary dontcha know."

         Thought you were going to talk about vaccines 🙂

         There's a pattern in your thinking, Rosemary!
     • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.3

       28 July 2022 at 10:46 am

       You might also be interested in comparing the % of public supplied fluoridated water in various regions with the % of 5 year olds with 0 fillings.

       https://www.ehinz.ac.nz/indicators/water/drinking-water-quality/access-to-fluoridated-drinking-water/

       https://www.ehinz.ac.nz/indicators/water/drinking-water-quality/oral-health-of-children/

       For instance, Counties/Manukau has 90-100% access to fluoridated water but the lowest % of 5 year olds with no fillings.

       It'd be handy if chucking a bunch of chemicals into the town supply would provide a universal fix…but it is not that simple.
     • Anne 7.2.4

       28 July 2022 at 10:59 am

       There was a section of rural NZ that had sufficient natural deposits present in their drinking water to be effective. I think it was somewhere in the South Island but have long forgotten the details. Whether it is still the case I don't know.

       High natural deposits are present in parts of Europe and at a high level of concentration. High concentration can cause white spots to appear on the enamel surface of teeth but that is not going to occur in NZ as the specified level of fluoride deposits are low by comparison.

       https://www.health.govt.nz/publication/code-practice-fluoridation-drinking-water-supplies-new-zealand#:~:text=The%20Code%20of%20Practice%20specifies,chemicals%20to%20drinking%2Dwater%20supplies

       It should be pointed out that fluoride exists naturally in streams and water ways. Its not some kind of man-made chemical.

       Edit: some people have naturally healthy teeth and gums. Good genes. Sounds like that was the case with your children Molly and no doubt they were brought up on a healthy diet too which is a big help.
       • Incognito 7.2.4.1

         28 July 2022 at 11:44 am

         I’ve heard of some rural folks cleaning their teeth with a handheld tool or device and some kind of white paste …
         • Poission 7.2.4.1.1

           28 July 2022 at 5:16 pm

           Yes but fluoride is a commie plot that robs you of your bodily fluids.

           https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J67wKhddWu4
           • Incognito 7.2.4.1.1.1

             28 July 2022 at 5:36 pm

             The pure white paste is fine, of course. However, you must watch out for the ones with a red stripe; only use the ones with a blue stripe according to my dentist Dr Morpheus.
             • Poission …

               28 July 2022 at 6:00 pm

               Do the spectral regimes transform under rotation from the western hemisphere to the southern hemisphere ?
           • pat 7.2.4.1.1.2

             28 July 2022 at 5:43 pm

             Spicy Sweet Homemade Mouthwash

             On November 4, I wrote that I had finished up my last bottle of Act fluoride rinse and had decided not to replace it. Several dentists told me they didn’t think I needed it. However, I wasn’t just using the rinse for the fluoride; it had also served as my mouthwash for the last couple of years, leaving my breath minty fresh. Without it, I needed to find a plastic-free alternative, and since there are apparently no mouthwashes sold plastic-free these days, I decided to make my own.

             I found the following recipe on Mother Earth Living and tried it:

             Spicy Sweet Mouthwash

             This mouthwash requires a couple of weeks for the spices to steep in the alcohol.
             • Poission …

               28 July 2022 at 6:10 pm

               And the hangover?
               • pat …

                 28 July 2022 at 6:12 pm

                 Hair of the dog
         • Robert Guyton 7.2.4.1.2

           28 July 2022 at 5:52 pm

           Twig and baking soda – I know those people!
8. left for dead 8

   27 July 2022 at 4:49 pm

   I'll bite (Freedumb)You may well be one of them,and/or it's been a very long time since you practiced. Fluoride is very good at killing "good bacteria",that is the problem needing addressed.

   Sorry can't/not linking,Google or any search engine will help.
   • Barfly 8.1

     27 July 2022 at 5:26 pm

     I was in High School in Tauranga when fluoride was added to the Tauranga water supply (around 50 years ago). I used to see the dentist every 6 months and every time I needed multiple fillings – after fluoride was added I needed One filling in the next two years. I believe it's lunacy that some local bodies still haven't adopted it.
   • Anne 8.2

     27 July 2022 at 6:44 pm

     "Fluoride is very good at killing "good bacteria"…

     Course “you're not goin to link”. Comes from some wingnut conspiracy theory to be sure!

     And why do you think you know more about dentistry than me? Are you a dentist?
     • weka 8.2.1

       28 July 2022 at 4:57 pm

       15 sec google.

       • Kills bacteria which cause cavities & gum disease – Fluoride doesn’t just help prevent cavities. It’s also antimicrobial, which means it can kill the bacteria in your mouth which contributes to issues like cavities and gum disease.

       https://www.knightpediatricdentistry.com/post/how-does-fluoride-help-oral-health

       The issue is whether the concentrations in town supply water are sufficient to have an effect. Or what effect they have when the water is being drunk every day.
   • dv 8.3

     28 July 2022 at 11:23 am

     Are you sure it was fluoride AND not Fluorine?
     • weka 8.3.1

       28 July 2022 at 4:57 pm

       • Kills bacteria which cause cavities & gum disease – Fluoride doesn’t just help prevent cavities. It’s also antimicrobial, which means it can kill the bacteria in your mouth which contributes to issues like cavities and gum disease.

       https://www.knightpediatricdentistry.com/post/how-does-fluoride-help-oral-health

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