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Open mike 27/12/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 27th, 2021 - 116 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

116 comments on “Open mike 27/12/2021 ”

  1. Patricia Bremner 1

    A big thank you to all who run the site. smileyyes much appreciated.

    • Jenny how to get there 2.1

      Got the message of Desmond Tutu's passing on facebook this morning from political activist and leading Ratana leader, Apotoro Takiwā Kereama Pene.
      Pene recollects Desmond Tutu's testimony at Hone Harawira's trial for assaulting the Auckland University Engineers racist haka party.

      Kereama Pene

      2021 is still not quite finished with us… what a loss to the people of South Africa and the whole World.

      The legendary story of Patu Squad 1981 and how the Archbishop over turned the case.

      Hone Harawira tells the story and laughs at the memory of the stunned faces of the judge, prosecution and jury as the Archbishop Desmond Tutu, in his signature dark suit and purple cleric’s shirt, walked into the courtroom.

      “And then I’m thinking, ‘What the fuck, now what do I do?’

      “So he takes the stand and I go, ‘Could you please tell the court your name?’ And then I said, ‘Can you please tell the court your address?’ And he gave an address in Soweto. Instantly, if the room wasn’t already charged, everyone was completely wide-eyed now.

      “And then I said, ‘Can you please explain to the court what apartheid is?’. And away he went. He must have spoken for 20 minutes. It was absolutely stunning. You could have heard a pin drop.”

      He says that after Tutu had finished, neither he nor the prosecution could think of any more questions.

      He Tangata Tutu-ru ki te mahi o te Rangimaietanga… I waenganui o Africa ki Te Tonga me Te Ao Katoa.

      What a wonderful soul the World has lost. Mangai Ae.

    • aom 2.2

      Worth a read. Probably no NZer was closer and more attuned to the morality of Desmond Tutu than John Minto.
      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/12/27/archbishop-desmond-tutu-friend-of-aotearoa-new-zealand-and-champion-of-palestinian-human-rights-dies-aged-90/

    • arkie 2.3

      Let us also not forget he was a champion of the working class:

      All my experiences with capitalism, I’m afraid, have indicated that it encourages some of the worst features in people. Eat or be eaten. It is underlined by the survival of the fittest. I can’t buy that. I mean, maybe it’s the awful face of capitalism, but I haven’t seen the other face.

      My political position is really quite simple. My own position is one that is due not to a political ideology. My position is due to my faith, my Christian faith and anything that I believe is inconsistent with the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ I will say it is wrong and has to be condemned.

      Any infringement of human rights anywhere in the world is something that I deplore. All I long for is a society that would be compassionate. A society that would be sharing. A society that would be caring. Now you can say to me, and I will admit it, that we have not seen an incarnation of that kind of society, the kind that you talk about. But we are ministers, we leave it to others to try to put flesh onto the dreams that we try to dream . . .

      Washington Post, 1986

  2. joe90 3

    Perhaps the pro-pla****s are right: the official tolls are wrong.

    /

    In Cape Girardeau County, the coroner hasn’t pronounced a single person dead of COVID-19 in 2021.

    Wavis Jordan, a Republican who was elected last year to serve as coroner of the 80,000-person county, says his office “doesn’t do COVID deaths.” He does not investigate deaths himself, and requires families to provide proof of a positive COVID-19 test before including it on a death certificate.

    Meanwhile, deaths at home attributed to conditions with symptoms that look a lot like COVID-19 — heart attacks, Alzheimer’s and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease — increased.

    “When it comes to COVID, we don’t do a test,” Jordan said, “so we don’t know if someone has COVID or not.”

    https://missouriindependent.com/2021/12/22/uncounted-inaccurate-death-certificates-across-the-country-hide-the-true-toll-of-covid-19/

    • Pete 3.1

      “When it comes to COVID, we don’t do a test,” Jordan said, “so we don’t know if someone has COVID or not.”

      Now why didn't the previous President not come up with that strategy. Instead of 815,000+ deaths from Covid in the US there would've been next to none.

      Jordan would seem to have all the credentials to be the first black Republican President. In real life he seems to be an assistant funeral director.

      Despite his best efforts his county with a population of nearly 82,000 has still managed 204 covid deaths.

      https://www.thecash-book.com/news/features/hometown-pride-wavis-jordan/

  3. vto 4

    So those among us who staunchly defend our environment from the clutches of 'market forces' do a great job but are always chasing their tail… always waiting until an applicatin is made and then opposing it.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/127357334/quarry-company-wants-to-extract-thousands-of-tonnes-of-gravel-from-canterbury-riverbed

    How about front-footing it instead. For the above one, apply for your own resource consent to leave the gravel in the river. Make the application cover the entire river. First-in-first-served and all that (so common in our nation…).

    Sure there would be 'technicalities' and things, but fundamentally use the RMA to claim the use of resources for the betterment of society and the environment. Apply to use the gravels by leaving them in the river and letting them pass naturally down the bed for recreational purposes and for gull and tern purposes.

    I have had this idea for a couple decades. Have mentioned it to the occasional person (dont mention these things to "yes, but.." types, only to "yes, lets.." types). Applications are cheap. The report would be pretty simple with little 'effect's to include. I imagine 'industry' would be all up in arms. I imagine, if it gained traction that the application would be replicated very quickly around the land. I think it is overdue to attempt. Who's keen?

    • Pat 4.1

      "Sure there would be 'technicalities' and things, but fundamentally use the RMA to claim the use of resources for the betterment of society and the environment"

      .Isnt that effectively what a Regional Council is supposed to be?

      Democratic administration of publicly owned assets for the betterment of society?

      • KJT 4.1.1

        Which is why the need for three waters and other reforms.

        Though I think the model proposed could be improved.

        • Pat 4.1.1.1

          Id suggest that what is needed is a better understanding (and engagement with) of democratic institutions…..never has the saying 'we get the government (or governance) we deserve' been better displayed.

        • Graeme 4.1.1.2

          Can you please point me to the part of 3 Waters that deals with resource allocation reform.

          My understanding is that 3 Waters is the amalgamation of District Council water infrastructure provision, not Regional Council resource allocation responsibilities.

          • KJT 4.1.1.2.1

            Water supplies and where it drains to, are resource management issues, are they not.

          • weka 4.1.1.2.2

            3 Waters should be a resource issue, but we're too stupid to understand the water cycle as it passes through humans. That we still think of some water as waste instead of part of the flow of nutrients and energy through natural systems is why we’re in such a mess.

        • Ad 4.1.1.3

          You mean RMA reform.

          3 Waters is a governance shift and asset management plan tilt.

    • Ad 4.2

      There's a hint in there: neither you nor anyone else has executed your idea in 20 years.

      It took the Whanganui people more than that and through multiple different processes, into a global first.

      Apart from noise, dust, traffic and vibration, my bet is a Notified process would have all the neighbours agreeing pretty quick. Many of the north Canterbury floods this year were caused by streams and rivers that had built up over time and were now at or above the level of the settlements around them.

      Technicalities. OMG.

      • weka 4.2.1

        Many of the north Canterbury floods this year were caused by streams and rivers that had built up over time and were now at or above the level of the settlements around them.

        Can you please explain that a bit more? Built up how and why?

        • Ad 4.2.1.1

          Moraine, boulders and silt building in the river bed of north Canterbury streams for multiple years, not cleared out, fills higher than the surrounding settlements, then a big flood like this year comes and overtops … lots of houses and surrounding farmland taken out.

          • weka 4.2.1.1.1

            natural cycle build up? Lower water flows due to less rain or irrigation take?

            • Pingao 4.2.1.1.1.1

              It is both natural cycle build up of sediment and drought (low flows) and water extraction and abstraction for irrigation. The sediment builds up and has fewer and lesser high and medium flows to wash the sediment downstream.

              There is a piece by Andrea Vance that is a good starter – mainly about river ecology of Canterburys braided rivers.

              Headline is – This Is How It Ends: ‘We take staggering amounts from our waterways’

              • weka

                Thanks! That would have been my guess. Probably some earthworks and structures to prevent flooding as well, and the inherent conflict between the river needing to flood and the humans building their houses in the way.

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/300422378/this-is-how-it-ends-we-take-staggering-amounts-from-our-waterways

                • RedLogix

                  A good story about water mismanagement but I don't see anything on gravel extraction.

                  For what it's worth I'd agree that our current use of irrigated water is very inefficient and I'm not impressed at the encroachment of farmland over obvious braidplains – that's just dumb. Basically water is just too plentiful in NZ and our agriculture industry has not had much incentive to use to more effectively.

                  The logical path forward is to follow much of the next gen agricultural technology that Australia is starting to adopt.g, that is moving operations away from large tracts of crude irrigation, to much more sophisticated, intensive and more compact operations.

                  1. Produce created differently using new techniques. Think hydroponics, algae feedstock, bioplastics, desert agriculture and seawater farming.
                  2. Using new technologies to bring food production to consumers. Increasing efficiencies in the food chain with vertical and urban farming, genetic modification and cultured meats, and applying 3D printing tech to food.
                  3. Incorporating cross-industry technologies and applications. Think drones, the IoT, nanotechnology, AI, food sharing, crowd-farming and blockchain.

                  Crucially all of these trend toward needing less land for farming as we're already seeing in Europe and North America. And not using the land means it can revert back to the more natural condition we would all wish it to be in.

                  • weka

                    or, regenerative agriculture and horticulture, relocalise food growing and supply, and adopt known techniques for holding water in the landscape. All of that is already being done in New Zealand, and is by its very nature sustainable (more or less).

                    What you are suggesting isn't.

          • Matiri 4.2.1.1.2

            The braided rivers of Canterbury have been heavily modified – when a big flood comes, the dead branches of a river get revived – woe betide the human infrastructure built there. Rivers don't forget!

            https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2021/06/rewilding-project-nz-braided-rivers/

            • weka 4.2.1.1.2.1

              Best times in my life have been living on the banks of rivers. Seen some impressive floods, and how nature manages that. Huge respect.

          • Pat 4.2.1.1.3

            Not to forget stop banks, infrastructure/ activity placed in areas of risk and the expectation that we can control nature…..and that when we fail someone will make good the loses.

          • weka 4.2.1.2.1

            which bit explains what Ad is talking about?

            • weka 4.2.1.2.1.1

              very cool website though.

            • joe90 4.2.1.2.1.2

              The consequences of human activities.

              Losing coastal lands

              “The conventional wisdom is that you harvest flood water in the winter and store it until it’s needed in the summer. However, floods are required to carry gravels to the coastal zone and if there’s not enough gravel, the waves get hungry and start eroding the land.” – Dr Scott Lanard, NIWA

              Most of this sediment was once spread across coastal deltas, building the coastline outward. However, the rivers have now been confined by stop banks and levees. While this prevents them from flooding, it also stops them from wandering over the coastal lands and adding thousands of tonnes of sediment as they go. Now, instead of building up our coast, most of this gravel and sediment is carried out to sea. Except in Kaikoura where earthquakes have lifted the coastline in places, the Canterbury coastline is now eroding. Soon, long stretches of it will be inundated by rising sea levels.

              https://braidedrivers.org/rivers/

              • KJT

                Those sediments are also, topsoil!

              • weka

                thanks Joe.

                I also understand the boundary where the seawater meets the underground fresh water water table in parts of Canterbury is moving inland. Related to irrigation take I think, but I wonder if the geology is part of it.

                Apparently damming the Clutha River is part of why there are erosion problems with the Dunedin beaches. Might be issues with rivers closer to home too.

        • vto 4.2.1.3

          Apologoes for not being around to respopnd yesterday – the day went sideways…

          All rivers need to spread across plains to spread the gravel load. Since about 100 years ago we have confined them to a single bed due to bridges mostly – bridges which were mostly built where the river;s leave the hills. As such, the gravel builds up and up and up until the bed is higher than the surrounding land.

          Then it finally spills over and covers the plains again. This is such an obvious thing when seen, which is everywhere on the west coast where this process moves at speed in light of the rainfall and erosion. Check the Waiho in Franz – go to the bridge and look down river, the bed is way higher than the town and the farmland each side, contained within the stopbanks. Just last month it was finally acknowledged by those who seem to think a bulldozerer can do anything that it has reached its end-point. The suyrrounding land is doomed completely. Check it out. Then see it in every part of NZ. Every part. Particularly the gravel braided types. Same in the slow meandering mud rivers, but much slower.

          Check how high every riverbed is when you drive over it this summer.

          • weka 4.2.1.3.1

            Thanks for the explanation vto. Will keep this in mind next time I'm driving through the east draining river country.

            Check how high every riverbed is when you drive over it this summer.

            High relative to what? The surrounding land? The bridge?

            • vto 4.2.1.3.1.1

              Relative to what it used to be… which is difficult to nut out of course…

              but one way it to try and suss by checking the piles and supports… they were generally built with deep straight piles on the bottom part and then a bracing (criss-cross, or beefier straight) structure on the top part. That top part was generally built quite a chunk above the original gravel bed… if you can't see the deep straight piles and the criss-cross part is already getting covered by gravels then it is over-full and in trouble.

              also sussable by the banks… most old riverbeds have a bank down to the bed.. but nowadays most of the old banks are non-existent as the bed has filled up… if there is no deep bank down to the bed then it is getting really full of gravel…

              this is happening everywhere

              in the same way slips and landslides are affecting roads everywhere…. all our civil works at 50-100 years old are at the end of their time… nature has caught us up

    • weka 4.3

      this is a brilliant idea vto. I would say that the resource consent could be made for the river itself, as well as the local natural and human communities. The river is part of the water cycle and the recharge of both the aquifer and the surrounding land. Then the ecosystem, then specific species like the gulls. Then recreation and other ways that humans interact.

      Resource, as re-source. Make the case for sustainability, actual sustainability.

      I don't know the RMA so don't know if this would be possible, but either it is and it's a precedent setting process, or it isn't and it's an excellent piece of activism to wake people up.

      Getting local buy in would be good, and having an established organisation that does activism to back it or run it. Forest and Bird? Or one of the scrappier ones who can go out on a limb.

      Or just do it as an couple of individuals who can run the thing and see it through.

      I'd be into putting a post up about this.

    • RedLogix 4.4

      Exactly why are we objecting to the removal of gravel from a riverbed?

      • weka 4.4.1
        1. it's not sustainable. We're taking gravel out faster than it's being created.
        2. it destroys habitat for living species (water, bank, plant communities)
        3. it messes with the mauri of the river

        Some of that is about how stone is extracted (so theoretically at least, it's not a blanket no). But we're such a long way from being able to take small amounts respectfully with regards to the river itself and the other life that has needs and relationships with the river.

        • weka 4.4.1.1

          I would hazard a guess that it affects the local water cycles and flows as well, but don't know the rivers in question.

          We need to look at extraction of stone in the whole system too. How much water is being extracted, how much deforestation, how much mitigation to prevent flooding of human spaces, how much pollution from farming are some of the pieces.

          • woodart 4.4.1.1.1

            you also need to look at each river individually. for instance, rangitikei river rock is volcanic, very hard, much sought after for road building. much of the rock used in the new transmission gulley road was actually rafted over from nelson area. farms around the centre of the island are having huge rocks bought and trucked to the end of the welly airport runway. huge volcanic boulders(over two tonnes each, get two on large dumper) are worth their weight in ??? as longterm seawall foundations. most river rock is not particulaly sought after for serious rd work, its mostly taken for flood prevention. when I was involved with large scale river extraction we couldnt go below normal river height to extract and also couldnt change the course of the river. a large flood did more change(damage? you decide) than any manmade works.

            • weka 4.4.1.1.1.1

              fuck, that's depressing. Thanks though, I can feel a post coming on.

              • woodart

                perhaps you should read the last sentence a few times…..

                • weka

                  I did. I disagree that floods cause more damage. It's not that humans can't make changes to rivers, but these rivers flood, that's how they have evolved. It's a cycle that's been going for long history, and the geology an living systems are adapted to that. How humans can fit into that sustainably is still to be determined.

                  the depressing bit is moving such materials over distances without thought for the whole systems.

                  • woodart

                    if you can find a better, cheaper, longer lasting solution to seawall building, road building, general construction, etc, Im sure every civil engineer on the planet will be eager to hear from you. no engineer from pyramid builders, stonehenge builders up to anybody working today WANTS to haul construction materials any distance. but as the chinese found out, if you use any old rubbish sourced locally, your wall suffers…..as for you disagreement that floods cause less damage than metal extraction, I say (with years of actually doing it, not just being a keyboard expert)baloney. since NZ civil engineering began , there would be less material extracted from rivers than what cyclone bola washed out to sea in a week. since volcanic rock comes from only two or three rivers,(and ,as I said, is preferred for roading, seawalls etc) more is actualy being dug out of quarrys away from waterways, as local river authorities are well aware of its value and keep a close eye on river extraction. play fast and lose with your permitted take and you lose the entire extraction permit, and nobody with a gravel extraction permit wants to do that.

                    • weka

                      Extracting to protect current infrastructure makes some kind of sense. Extracting to build new roads doesn't. And maintaining seawalls needs urgent analysis in the context of climate change (everything does in fact). At what point do we look at managed retreat? Doesn't have to be now, but we should be thinking about it.

                      What's the damage done by rock being washed to the sea? When they dammed the Clutha, they changed not just the flow of the river, but also the flow of the ocean along the south coast westwards, which has impacted the Dunedin beaches.

                      And how much of the rock going out to sea now is due to deforestation and other land changes?

                      I'm arguing here to look at the whole system. Obviously floods do a lot of damage to human infrastructure, but how much of that is due to us ignoring how rivers actually work and working with them?

              • joe90

                And now there's a five hectare yards worth all the way from Ruatiti.

        • RedLogix 4.4.1.2
          1. Are you sure of this? Having spent a fair amount of my earlier life scrambling over the scree fields of the Southern Alps and seen just how much material is moved downstream during a massive flood event – I'm a tad skeptical that there is any shortage of gravel.

          2. Flood events have a massive impact on the riverbeds, orders of magnitude greater than any extraction humans might achieve. And our impact would be purely local to the operation, while a flood hits the entire watershed.

          3. Can you be more specific on what 'messing with the mauri of the river' actually means in pragmatic terms here?

          • weka 4.4.1.2.1
            1. Are you sure of this? Having spent a fair amount of my earlier life scrambling over the scree fields of the Southern Alps and seen just how much material is moved downstream during a massive flood event – I'm a tad skeptical that there is any shortage of gravel.

            Not sure, making an educated guess. Have also spent a fair amount of time in the mountains but in intact ecosystems, not ones like the Canterbury Plains rivers, which have been hugely altered by humans. In terms of sustainability, it's not just the x volume of rock relative to time and weather, it's about the whole system. If we just measure the one thing, we're missing the point.

            However, you are the engineering and science person 🙂 so perhaps you can more easily find the research on the rock to time/weather ration?

            2. Flood events have a massive impact on the riverbeds, orders of magnitude greater than any extraction humans might achieve. And our impact would be purely local to the operation, while a flood hits the entire watershed.

            Local extraction wrecks local ecosystems. Nature has a process evolved over very long time that humans can't even fully comprehend or study. How would we know what the impacts are? I trust nature, because the regenerative essence is observable. I'm not seeing any regenerative essence in our extractive industries but I live in hope.

            3. Can you be more specific on what 'messing with the mauri of the river' actually means in pragmatic terms here?

            Think about the river places you love the most and imagine them being straightened and flattened and the banks planted in pine trees. The water still runs, there are trees on the bank, and birds in the trees. What's changed apart from the various individual elements? Do you think it's only how you feel about it that has changed, or was there something instrinsic to the place that exists whether you know about it or not?

            Pragmatically, humans are part of nature and we harm ourselves when we intervene in landscapes that mess with the mauri. This is the underlying principle of why we are hurtling ourselves toward climate and ecological catastrophe.

      • Pingao 4.4.2

        Canterbury Regional River Gravel Management Strategy October 2012 has a summary on the adverse effects effects of gravel extraction around page 8.

        It includes effects on river ecology (disturbance of river bed, water quality, pool and riffle sequences, breeding places for fish and birds etc), coastal processes (deposits of sediment/erosion) and also impacts on human health.

        There are pluses too of course.

        • RedLogix 4.4.2.1

          Yes I do understand that gravel extraction has a big impact locally as does any human activity. (Even the house you are living in as you type right now, has impacted the prior local ecology; everything humans do has an impact of some sort.)

          But the localised impact of gravel extraction needs to be understood in the context of the entire river ecology over time – and that's the case that needs to be made.

          • weka 4.4.2.1.1

            yes, but that doesn't mean that if the river can replace the gravel every 200 hundred years that local extraction that has negative impacts will be ok. Which is the general mindset behind extractive industries if they are even thinking about such things.

            • RedLogix 4.4.2.1.1.1

              • weka

                Cool video.

                That's a creek that's had its natural ecosystem very disrupted by humans. See how the creek sits within cleared land/pastoral farm? The original landscape would have been forest, scrubland, some wetland and the perpetual regenerative river edge ecologies that are a feature of mountain rivers.

                Up catchment, there should be bush on all those hills and when it rained, that bush would have both slowed the water running into the creek, and would have sequestered water into the land itself. With deforestation you basically create a fast track of rain water into creeks.

                If you look at the googlemaps on satellite you can see it's big catchment and it's pretty much all deforested. You can also see the amount of erosion happening on those hills.

                https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glenfalloch+Station+Todhunter/@-43.3207149,171.2261542,2389m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!3m7!1s0x0:0xc61fb1613df19d9d!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d-43.3057886!4d171.2191594?hl=en

                I'm guessing, because I don't know that rohe. But this is a very common pattern in NZ. One could say that conventional sheep farming there is also a gravel factory. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

                I don't know the Canterbury Plains very well, but elsewhere in the South Island, when floods move rock like that, it stops at some point and becomes the next round of the cycle as the first colonising plants come in that are then followed in succession. That's habitat for insects, skinks, birds. If the river shifts, eventually trees will grow.

                Taking all or a lot of that gravel out changes the river. Changes its mauri, it's physical structure, its ecology.

                This is the industrial mindset. Gravel is just physical stuff lying around that humans can use.

                Whereas what's really going on is a set of complex and intricate relationships between all the things (many of which we don't know about), and which as a whole are more than the sum of the parts.

                Once we step into that mindset (the interconnected nature of all the things) how we relate with all the things changes. We can still do human building things, but how we do it becomes sustainable rather than primarily extractive. This is the core of sustainability principles and it's why almost nothing we are doing currently is actually sustainable. It could be, but it requires a different kind of thinking.

                • RedLogix

                  Up catchment, there should be bush on all those hills and when it rained, that bush would have both slowed the water running into the creek, and would have sequestered water into the land itself.

                  I'm not sure if you've looked at the eastern side of the Southern Alps – in it's natural form there are scree slopes and gullies just like this creek everywhere. I've spent whole days of my life trudging over them.

                  The main part of the Alps is a sedimentary schist that both uplifts via the tectonic plate movement very rapidly – and erodes very rapidly. It's been doing this for millions of years – long before humans were even thought of. It was never 'stable'.

                  All we're doing here is tapping into a tiny fraction of a massive cycle.

                  • weka

                    those hills in the google maps aren't the high central mountains in the alps. They should have subapline then bush on them.

                    If you look at the mountains on the west of the divide where there's been no farming it's more obvious. Yes, scree slopes are a feature, but so are plant ecologies.

                    The main part of the Alps is a sedimentary schist that both uplifts via the tectonic plate movement very rapidly – and erodes very rapidly. It's been doing this for millions of years – long before humans were even thought of. It was never 'stable'.

                    I didn't say it was stable. I'm saying that it's in constant change, and the ecologies have adapted around that. The whole system is a regenerative system.

                    All we're doing here is tapping into a tiny fraction of a massive cycle.

                    This is like saying the water cycle is massive and irrigation take is a tiny fraction of it. Still not sustainable.

                    Or the carbon cycle is massive and our wee bits of coal are a tiny fraction of it.

                    • RedLogix

                      Or the carbon cycle is massive and our wee bits of coal are a tiny fraction of it.

                      Not a very compelling analogy. All we're doing is shifting a tiny fraction of the gravel from one place – where it is rapidly replenished – and putting it somewhere else for a useful purpose. There is no meaningful impact comparable to climate change involved.

                      Yes we do run into resource constraints – and invariably what successful societies do is innovate our way around them. This idea that humans must never do anything 'extractive' is both arbitrary and self-defeating. If we had applied this rule for the whole of our evolution, you and I would not be here having this conversation.

                    • weka

                      reread my comments RL. I repeatedly said that we can still make use of resources.

                      If you want to know why I stop talking to you, it's exactly this. I'm making a clear and coherent argument and you just pick out sound bites and respond to them out of context and end up misrepresenting what I am saying.

                      It's pretty clear you don't understand what I am talking about. That's ok, but I won't have it misrepresented.

      • vto 4.4.3

        There are myriad reasons that relate to that particular application. But I didn't object to it Red, I pointed a different approach out to those who object to it.

        Most rivers are clogging up with gravel due to our confinement of rivers by bridge and farm and need gravel to be pulled out to prevent man-induced 'flooding'…

        … think about it though… pull all gravel out of a braided river where it leaves the hills and where do you put it? Nature naturally spreads it evenly over the plains steadily raising them. Man would put such quantities where? In one big hill? haha.

        This is one of those logic things which requires thinking through to logical conclusions redlogix. One logic conclusion is that it is impossible to confine such rivers and they must be left to swing across plains, devastating farms every millenium or so…

        • RedLogix 4.4.3.1

          Most rivers are clogging up with gravel due to our confinement of rivers by bridge and farm and need gravel to be pulled out to prevent man-induced 'flooding'…

          Agreed. This is a common problem in many places – in some infamous instances the riverbed is often metres higher than the surrounding plains. This is an ancient trade-off riverine based agricultural societies have faced for millennia.

          In the case of Cantebury it's not reasonable to demand the rivers should run unconstrained wherever they will, nor that we can control forever the immense amounts of sediment involved – over 400 million tonnes per annum. We have to pick a path in between.

  4. arkie 6

    Police 'concerned at prevalence of firearms' in society

    Police say the issue of gun violence is not just confined to a single region.

    RNZ

    No discussion of how a re-introduction of a registry of guns, like our vehicle registration system, would make the tracing of the origin of these illegally-obtained weapons easier, while also allowing another avenue of prosecution for the criminal use/distribution of firearms.

    • Blade 6.1

      Meanwhile, the public of most commonwealth countries have been stripped of their right to bear arms for self defence because we have no Second Amendment like legislation to protect our lives. Even our police are denied the right to carry a side arm as standard kit. That has cost some policemen and members of the public their lives.

      Next time you are at a boring dinner party, liven things up by saying you support the right to bear arms for self defence. The incredulous looks you receive will be a sight to behold. That's how brainwashed society has become.

      • bwaghorn 6.1.1

        You'd get incredulous looks because it's a fucking stupid idea , register every gun to the owner, absolutely nail anyone with illegal firearms to the wall,

        I own a couple of rifles just incase your wondering.

      • fender 6.1.2

        "…..support the right to bear arms for self defense "

        Yeah wouldn't that be just wonderful. Best everyone carry arms 24/7 because one never knows where the next threat is coming from. What could possibly go wrong with that eh

        The American second amendment thing was originally meant for protection in the case of an invading country, not for Rambo wannabes to strut around imitating special forces.

        • Gezza 6.1.2.1

          Last sentence not quite correct.

          The Second Amendment’s primary justification was to prevent the United States from needing a standing army.

          Preventing the United States from starting a professional army, in fact, was the single most important goal of the Second Amendment. It is hard to recapture this fear today, but during the 18th century few boogeymen were as scary as the standing army — an army made up of professional, full-time soldiers.

          By the logic of the 18th century, any society with a professional army could never be truly free. The men in charge of that army could order it to attack the citizens themselves, who, unarmed and unorganized, would be unable to fight back. This was why a well-regulated militia was necessary to the security of a free state: To be secure, a society needed to be able to defend itself; to be free, it could not exist merely at the whim of a standing army and its generals.

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/02/22/what-the-second-amendment-really-meant-to-the-founders/

          • fender 6.1.2.1.1

            Interesting, thanks. So with the situation being much different today, there's no longer a need for citizens to stockpile the arsenal that many in the US have. Having said that I'm sure there must be some nutters over there who believe they need nukes at home just in case their military plan to use them on the people!

            • Gezza 6.1.2.1.1.1

              Well, in the minds of the gun nuts, the survivalists, the multiple-conspiracy freaks, the Deep State intending “resisters”, the OTT Democrat haters, & the New Conferderacy separatist adherents they need their guns because their “tyrannical government” is either already here , or it’s coming to get them very soon.

              The gun lobby, gun manufacturers & gun retailers, & bent broadcasters like Alex Jones feed these kinds of folk a constant load of BS mixed with truth to keep them fearful, hate-filled, & armed up to the eyeball.

              Gun control in the USA is a lost cause. Too many politicians in both parties are compromised by gun lobby donations & there are now so many guns out there in the community that people who wouldn’t a few years ago are now buying guns to protect themselves from armed burglars, nutters, angry neighbours, & rogue Rambo militia types, just in case.

          • Macro 6.1.2.1.2

            Exactly Gezza. But you try to convince the NRA and the 1m odd gun nuts in the US of this reality. 🙁

            The 2nd Amendment is perhaps the most misunderstood and most abused amendment in the whole US constitution. The 5th comes a close second IMHO.

        • Blade 6.1.2.2

          Happy new year to you to, Gezza.

        • Blade 6.1.2.3

          ''Yeah wouldn't that be just wonderful. Best everyone carry arms 24/7 because one never knows where the next threat is coming from. What could possibly go wrong with that eh.''

          Hyperbole, and you know it. Given the reaction on this blog, how many would take the option up?

      • RosieLee 6.1.3

        "right to bear arms in self defense"?

        FFS this is American BS. We do not need it here. If we want to go hunting we get a hunting licence for hunting weapons. NOBODY needs anything else.

      • Sacha 6.1.4

        It's outrageous how ancient rights like beating your slaves have been taken away from us. Snowflakes will get us all killed.

      • Gezza 6.1.5

        @ Blade

        1. Happy Christmas. Hope you have a great 2022.

        2. Still the best ever commentary on US citizens' 2nd Amendment right to bear arms…

      • KJT 6.1.6

        Where police are routinely armed.

        A lot more police and innocent civilians get killed.

        "Arms" for "self defense" is a daft idea. As the USA so graphically illustrates.

        • Blade 6.1.6.1

          That's a knee jerk reaction – one I'm familiar with. But it's a shallow argument. For starters the size of our countries are different. The lax control of guns in the US is a problem. New Zealand would have a far different right to bear arms protocol. Police in the States are among the worst trained in the world.

          Find the Wiki page showing genocide in countries stripped of their rights to bear arms – if I remember correctly it was well over 100 million.

          Look, I have no problem with you or your loved ones accepting your fate at the hands of thugs. But I would prefer the right to shoot someone trying to take the most precious thing in my life – my life!

          • KJT 6.1.6.1.1

            One based on facts.

            Not your reckons.

            • Blade 6.1.6.1.1.1

              Exactly.

            • Blade 6.1.6.1.1.2

              Here's an educated guess – 3 police officers to die in 2022… followed by the arming of all police officers as a matter of course. Everyone seems quiet on the arming of police officers.

              • KJT

                "Everyone seems quiet on the arming of police officers".

                Maybe in your circles!

                Plenty of us don't want a US style arms race between cops and criminals, where to quote a former police union official. "The public will just have to get used to more people being shot by police".

                Where police carry guns, and civilians "arm themselves for self defense" the number of violent incidents, injures and deaths increase markedly.

                Fortunately the delusional idea that you need weapons for "self defense" has never caught on in NZ.

                Apart from a few delusional fools!

                • Blade

                  ''Plenty of us don't want a US style arms race between cops and criminals,''

                  I agree. I think it will be a VERY sad day when our cops become armed. No doubt public interactions with police may change.

                  'Where police carry guns, and civilians "arm themselves for self defense" the number of violent incidents, injures and deaths increase markedly.''

                  I assume you are using the USA as an example to back your claim? If so, as I have stated above, NZ would never have to follow that example when implementing guns as a legal form of defence.

                  ''Fortunately the delusional idea that you need weapons for "self defense" has never caught on in NZ.''

                  That's true. And there's a reason for that – there was never a need to have weapons for self defence in NZ. Our culture, for all its bloodshed, evolved in a different manner to the States.

                  However, times have changed. And when you tackle a problem to fit with your personal views and ideology, while refusing to take a rational and tactical approach to a situation that's costing lives… then ''delusion fool'' is a moniker that fits well.

                  Let's explore this issue further when the next batch of victims to gun violence happens.

                  • KJT

                    The fallacy that you need "weapons for self defense" in the USA, is the reason why they have such a huge gun problem.

                    • Blade

                      No genocide in the States ( apart from native Americans). Have a look at all those countries that removed the right to owns guns. and what followed. While it is fair to call America a police state, their government would never dare cross a certain threshold. They know if that line was crossed, everyone from a Wall Street huckster to a toothless hillbilly would fight back. We have no such protection in New Zealand. We are sitting ducks if anarchy breaks out.

                      Incidentally, across the States, they have interment camps ready to be used.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Three police officers killed in the line of duty in one year (2022) would be an aberration, although there were four tragic deaths in 1963, and one death (Constable Matthew Hunt; 2020) in the last 10 years. Time will tell.

                List of New Zealand police officers killed in the line of duty
                As of 2020, 33 police officers have been killed by criminal act, and about 17 have died from accidental causes, during the execution of duty.

                • Blade

                  Yes, its a big call DMK. It's predicated on the following.

                  1- The P trade exploding as more people turn to drugs as the hopelessness of our countries predicament becomes apparent to many Kiwis.

                  2-Gang numbers continue to increase markedly.

                  3- The breakdown of social order as NZ becomes fractionalised.

                  4- The lost generation of school kids not going to school.

                  5- Unending economic pressure on the middleclass.

                  6- Maori using Covid as an excuse to implement exclusion zones.

                  7- The break down of our health system.

                  8- Police losing respect for their job.

                  To me it's really frightening that there's so many flash points in society at the moment.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    To me it's really frightening that there's so many flash points in society at the moment.

                    Sorry to read that, Blade. Yes, we face many challenges, and there's plenty for some to be fearful of – just not convinced that taking out the 'trash' is the best long-term path to making society safer.

                    We (society) are either all in this together, or we're not.

                    Tasman deathtrap: the brutal toll of Australia’s deportation policy [15 October 2018]
                    In the past three years, at least four New Zealand citizens have died in Australian custody or immediately following deportation, and researchers believe there are almost certainly more. The New Zealand government has no estimate of the total number of deaths, and Minister of Justice Andrew Little says his office is powerless to force a change in Australian law. “We don’t have any control over what the Australians do. We don’t have a great deal of leverage.

                    Gang Intelligence Centre (GIC)
                    The Gang Intelligence Centre (GIC) is a multi-agency unit supporting the Government’s strategic response to the harm caused by Organised Crime in New Zealand Communities with a specific focus on New Zealand Adult Gangs (NZAG).

                    The purpose of the Gang Intelligence Centre is to provide a holistic understanding of the harm being caused by, to, and within our New Zealand Adult Gang community, with a particular focus on the social structures and behaviours that underpin this harmful behaviour. A holistic understanding enables the identification of prevention and intervention opportunities which will enable these communities to achieve better outcomes and reduce harm.

                  • KJT

                    If you choose to ignore the fact that violent crime is not rising…..

                    Just the publicity around it.

    • Sacha 6.2

      Tis the season where crime and gun headlines get louder as people head for the beach, and with a resourced movement involved again this time. Facts merely whisper in the shade.

      (click on table in tweet to expand)

      • Blade 6.2.1

        One whisper gets louder… 501, 501, 501!

        • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.1

          You're onto it mate, problem is most people on this site won't listen to reason on this subject

          • Gezza 6.2.1.1.1

            I’m listening. And probably so are people who watched 1ewes at 6 last night:

            Detective Superintendent Greg Willams runs the National Organised Crime Group. He agreed to sit down with 1News for an extended interview on the state of the city.

            “It’s a challenging environment out there, there is no doubt about it,” he said, adding that untangling the current situation in the city was complicated, with many elements in play.

            “You’ve seen a revamping of the Rebels, an expansion of the Comancheros, you’ve got existing gangs like the Head Hunters here, you’ve seen an expansion of [King Cobras]… you’re seeing that expansion and with that you’re seeing tension.”

            The attraction for many was methamphetamine, he said, with New Zealanders still paying some of the highest prices in the world for the drug, which was getting cheaper for gangs to buy at a wholesale price.

            It was the prevalent drug in New Zealand, according to wastewater testing.

            “A lot of the violence you are seeing here is about market control.”

            Williams also spoke about Australia’s 501s deportation policy.

            “The percentage of gang members that are actually coming out of that number are not massive, but they are influential, they were leaders in Australia, and they’ve really changed the whole gang scene here,” he said.

            “We would [not] have seen gangs like the Comancheros if not for that process.”

            He said the traditional New Zealand gangs would often resolve violence before it escalated. But, with the new players, that was not always the case anymore. “You do something, I do something bigger, you do something,” he said. “You are consequently seeing stuff here that you have never seen before.

            “The firing of multiple shots into a family home, even the firepower we are seeing now is concerning. AR-15s, AK-47s, we have even seen seizure of 50 calibre machine guns… so that’s naturally concerning to us.”

            https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/12/26/gangs-and-guns-seeing-stuff-here-that-you-have-never-seen-before/

            Also this, in yesterday’s Herald, mentions the 501 gang deportees’ influence in organised crime & the proliferation of gun crime that is deeply concerning police AND ordinary citizens.

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/auckland-shootings-australian-501-policy-blamed-for-rise-in-gang-violence/EQ26GY2ZJDUPGPUHVLD4HL2YM4/

            I had siblings come & stay for Xmas, & other rellies dropped by & visited us all here at Pookden Manor on Boxing Day. This topic came up in the conversations. Everybody was concerned about the number of shootings we hear about every week nowadays, about the number of armed offenders who’ve started shooting at police, & about the now well-reported influence of Aussie 501 deportees on escalating gang violence & firearms use by gang members in Kiwiland.

          • KJT 6.2.1.1.2

            Most people on this site like evidence.

            Not Gossip!

  5. Dennis Frank 7

    Had an xmas call from my ex-partner (now aged 70), mentioned her sister (aged 68) gave her a xmas gift that morning. A mask-wearing exemption certificate, with my ex's name on it. Since my ex has happily worn a mask the past couple of years, and sis has been a fervent Trump supporter for twice as long, ex told sis about seeing on tv news Trump informing his rally crowd that he'd just had his booster shot, and getting booed. "Ah, so that explains it! Trump must be the Antichrist!" said sis excitedly. Only extremely mentally-agile people can spin on a dime like that. My ex was vastly amused.

    Needless to say, she won't be using the cert. However sis is compulsive in denial. Ex told me that blocking her sister's emails a year ago had no psychological impact whatsoever. She still gets conspiracy theories from the true believer every phone call & visit despite years of disconnecting & telling sis she's not interested.

    Both women became spectacularly successful in business in the 1970s as designers & owners. Both now live mortgage-free in their own homes. Their family dynamic is friendly & enterprising. The psycho thing is regarded as eccentricity…

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