Got the message of Desmond Tutu's passing on facebook this morning from political activist and leading Ratana leader, Apotoro Takiwā Kereama Pene.
Pene recollects Desmond Tutu's testimony at Hone Harawira's trial for assaulting the Auckland University Engineers racist haka party.
2021 is still not quite finished with us… what a loss to the people of South Africa and the whole World.
The legendary story of Patu Squad 1981 and how the Archbishop over turned the case.
Hone Harawira tells the story and laughs at the memory of the stunned faces of the judge, prosecution and jury as the Archbishop Desmond Tutu, in his signature dark suit and purple cleric’s shirt, walked into the courtroom.
“And then I’m thinking, ‘What the fuck, now what do I do?’
“So he takes the stand and I go, ‘Could you please tell the court your name?’ And then I said, ‘Can you please tell the court your address?’ And he gave an address in Soweto. Instantly, if the room wasn’t already charged, everyone was completely wide-eyed now.
“And then I said, ‘Can you please explain to the court what apartheid is?’. And away he went. He must have spoken for 20 minutes. It was absolutely stunning. You could have heard a pin drop.”
He says that after Tutu had finished, neither he nor the prosecution could think of any more questions.
He Tangata Tutu-ru ki te mahi o te Rangimaietanga… I waenganui o Africa ki Te Tonga me Te Ao Katoa.
What a wonderful soul the World has lost. Mangai Ae.
Yes, that story should be better known than it is. As so often, and especially with both Tutu and Mandela, time erodes the memory of who really was on the right side, and who only joined in the praise once the cause had been won.
Another link for the Tutu/Harawira court case, for anyone interested (scroll down to end):
Let us also not forget he was a champion of the working class:
All my experiences with capitalism, I’m afraid, have indicated that it encourages some of the worst features in people. Eat or be eaten. It is underlined by the survival of the fittest. I can’t buy that. I mean, maybe it’s the awful face of capitalism, but I haven’t seen the other face.
…
My political position is really quite simple. My own position is one that is due not to a political ideology. My position is due to my faith, my Christian faith and anything that I believe is inconsistent with the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ I will say it is wrong and has to be condemned.
…
Any infringement of human rights anywhere in the world is something that I deplore. All I long for is a society that would be compassionate. A society that would be sharing. A society that would be caring. Now you can say to me, and I will admit it, that we have not seen an incarnation of that kind of society, the kind that you talk about. But we are ministers, we leave it to others to try to put flesh onto the dreams that we try to dream . . .
Perhaps the pro-pla****s are right: the official tolls are wrong.
/
In Cape Girardeau County, the coroner hasn’t pronounced a single person dead of COVID-19 in 2021.
Wavis Jordan, a Republican who was elected last year to serve as coroner of the 80,000-person county, says his office “doesn’t do COVID deaths.” He does not investigate deaths himself, and requires families to provide proof of a positive COVID-19 test before including it on a death certificate.
Meanwhile, deaths at home attributed to conditions with symptoms that look a lot like COVID-19 — heart attacks, Alzheimer’s and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease — increased.
“When it comes to COVID, we don’t do a test,” Jordan said, “so we don’t know if someone has COVID or not.”
“When it comes to COVID, we don’t do a test,” Jordan said, “so we don’t know if someone has COVID or not.”
Now why didn't the previous President not come up with that strategy. Instead of 815,000+ deaths from Covid in the US there would've been next to none.
Jordan would seem to have all the credentials to be the first black Republican President. In real life he seems to be an assistant funeral director.
Despite his best efforts his county with a population of nearly 82,000 has still managed 204 covid deaths.
Now why didn't the previous President not come up with that strategy.
He tried.
@realDonaldTrump Cases are going up in the U.S. because we are testing far more than any other country, and ever expanding. With smaller testing we would show fewer cases!
So those among us who staunchly defend our environment from the clutches of 'market forces' do a great job but are always chasing their tail… always waiting until an applicatin is made and then opposing it.
How about front-footing it instead. For the above one, apply for your own resource consent to leave the gravel in the river. Make the application cover the entire river. First-in-first-served and all that (so common in our nation…).
Sure there would be 'technicalities' and things, but fundamentally use the RMA to claim the use of resources for the betterment of society and the environment. Apply to use the gravels by leaving them in the river and letting them pass naturally down the bed for recreational purposes and for gull and tern purposes.
I have had this idea for a couple decades. Have mentioned it to the occasional person (dont mention these things to "yes, but.." types, only to "yes, lets.." types). Applications are cheap. The report would be pretty simple with little 'effect's to include. I imagine 'industry' would be all up in arms. I imagine, if it gained traction that the application would be replicated very quickly around the land. I think it is overdue to attempt. Who's keen?
"Sure there would be 'technicalities' and things, but fundamentally use the RMA to claim the use of resources for the betterment of society and the environment"
.Isnt that effectively what a Regional Council is supposed to be?
Democratic administration of publicly owned assets for the betterment of society?
Id suggest that what is needed is a better understanding (and engagement with) of democratic institutions…..never has the saying 'we get the government (or governance) we deserve' been better displayed.
Can you please point me to the part of 3 Waters that deals with resource allocation reform.
My understanding is that 3 Waters is the amalgamation of District Council water infrastructure provision, not Regional Council resource allocation responsibilities.
3 Waters should be a resource issue, but we're too stupid to understand the water cycle as it passes through humans. That we still think of some water as waste instead of part of the flow of nutrients and energy through natural systems is why we’re in such a mess.
There's a hint in there: neither you nor anyone else has executed your idea in 20 years.
It took the Whanganui people more than that and through multiple different processes, into a global first.
Apart from noise, dust, traffic and vibration, my bet is a Notified process would have all the neighbours agreeing pretty quick. Many of the north Canterbury floods this year were caused by streams and rivers that had built up over time and were now at or above the level of the settlements around them.
Many of the north Canterbury floods this year were caused by streams and rivers that had built up over time and were now at or above the level of the settlements around them.
Can you please explain that a bit more? Built up how and why?
Moraine, boulders and silt building in the river bed of north Canterbury streams for multiple years, not cleared out, fills higher than the surrounding settlements, then a big flood like this year comes and overtops … lots of houses and surrounding farmland taken out.
It is both natural cycle build up of sediment and drought (low flows) and water extraction and abstraction for irrigation. The sediment builds up and has fewer and lesser high and medium flows to wash the sediment downstream.
There is a piece by Andrea Vance that is a good starter – mainly about river ecology of Canterburys braided rivers.
Headline is – This Is How It Ends: ‘We take staggering amounts from our waterways’
Thanks! That would have been my guess. Probably some earthworks and structures to prevent flooding as well, and the inherent conflict between the river needing to flood and the humans building their houses in the way.
A good story about water mismanagement but I don't see anything on gravel extraction.
For what it's worth I'd agree that our current use of irrigated water is very inefficient and I'm not impressed at the encroachment of farmland over obvious braidplains – that's just dumb. Basically water is just too plentiful in NZ and our agriculture industry has not had much incentive to use to more effectively.
Produce created differently using new techniques. Think hydroponics, algae feedstock, bioplastics, desert agriculture and seawater farming.
Using new technologies to bring food production to consumers. Increasing efficiencies in the food chain with vertical and urban farming, genetic modification and cultured meats, and applying 3D printing tech to food.
Incorporating cross-industry technologies and applications. Think drones, the IoT, nanotechnology, AI, food sharing, crowd-farming and blockchain.
Crucially all of these trend toward needing less land for farming as we're already seeing in Europe and North America. And not using the land means it can revert back to the more natural condition we would all wish it to be in.
or, regenerative agriculture and horticulture, relocalise food growing and supply, and adopt known techniques for holding water in the landscape. All of that is already being done in New Zealand, and is by its very nature sustainable (more or less).
The braided rivers of Canterbury have been heavily modified – when a big flood comes, the dead branches of a river get revived – woe betide the human infrastructure built there. Rivers don't forget!
Not to forget stop banks, infrastructure/ activity placed in areas of risk and the expectation that we can control nature…..and that when we fail someone will make good the loses.
“The conventional wisdom is that you harvest flood water in the winter and store it until it’s needed in the summer. However, floods are required to carry gravels to the coastal zone and if there’s not enough gravel, the waves get hungry and start eroding the land.” – Dr Scott Lanard, NIWA
Most of this sediment was once spread across coastal deltas, building the coastline outward. However, the rivers have now been confined by stop banks and levees. While this prevents them from flooding, it also stops them from wandering over the coastal lands and adding thousands of tonnes of sediment as they go. Now, instead of building up our coast, most of this gravel and sediment is carried out to sea. Except in Kaikoura where earthquakes have lifted the coastline in places, the Canterbury coastline is now eroding. Soon, long stretches of it will be inundated by rising sea levels.
I also understand the boundary where the seawater meets the underground fresh water water table in parts of Canterbury is moving inland. Related to irrigation take I think, but I wonder if the geology is part of it.
Apparently damming the Clutha River is part of why there are erosion problems with the Dunedin beaches. Might be issues with rivers closer to home too.
Apologoes for not being around to respopnd yesterday – the day went sideways…
All rivers need to spread across plains to spread the gravel load. Since about 100 years ago we have confined them to a single bed due to bridges mostly – bridges which were mostly built where the river;s leave the hills. As such, the gravel builds up and up and up until the bed is higher than the surrounding land.
Then it finally spills over and covers the plains again. This is such an obvious thing when seen, which is everywhere on the west coast where this process moves at speed in light of the rainfall and erosion. Check the Waiho in Franz – go to the bridge and look down river, the bed is way higher than the town and the farmland each side, contained within the stopbanks. Just last month it was finally acknowledged by those who seem to think a bulldozerer can do anything that it has reached its end-point. The suyrrounding land is doomed completely. Check it out. Then see it in every part of NZ. Every part. Particularly the gravel braided types. Same in the slow meandering mud rivers, but much slower.
Check how high every riverbed is when you drive over it this summer.
Relative to what it used to be… which is difficult to nut out of course…
but one way it to try and suss by checking the piles and supports… they were generally built with deep straight piles on the bottom part and then a bracing (criss-cross, or beefier straight) structure on the top part. That top part was generally built quite a chunk above the original gravel bed… if you can't see the deep straight piles and the criss-cross part is already getting covered by gravels then it is over-full and in trouble.
also sussable by the banks… most old riverbeds have a bank down to the bed.. but nowadays most of the old banks are non-existent as the bed has filled up… if there is no deep bank down to the bed then it is getting really full of gravel…
this is happening everywhere
in the same way slips and landslides are affecting roads everywhere…. all our civil works at 50-100 years old are at the end of their time… nature has caught us up
this is a brilliant idea vto. I would say that the resource consent could be made for the river itself, as well as the local natural and human communities. The river is part of the water cycle and the recharge of both the aquifer and the surrounding land. Then the ecosystem, then specific species like the gulls. Then recreation and other ways that humans interact.
Resource, as re-source. Make the case for sustainability, actual sustainability.
I don't know the RMA so don't know if this would be possible, but either it is and it's a precedent setting process, or it isn't and it's an excellent piece of activism to wake people up.
Getting local buy in would be good, and having an established organisation that does activism to back it or run it. Forest and Bird? Or one of the scrappier ones who can go out on a limb.
Or just do it as an couple of individuals who can run the thing and see it through.
it's not sustainable. We're taking gravel out faster than it's being created.
it destroys habitat for living species (water, bank, plant communities)
it messes with the mauri of the river
Some of that is about how stone is extracted (so theoretically at least, it's not a blanket no). But we're such a long way from being able to take small amounts respectfully with regards to the river itself and the other life that has needs and relationships with the river.
I would hazard a guess that it affects the local water cycles and flows as well, but don't know the rivers in question.
We need to look at extraction of stone in the whole system too. How much water is being extracted, how much deforestation, how much mitigation to prevent flooding of human spaces, how much pollution from farming are some of the pieces.
you also need to look at each river individually. for instance, rangitikei river rock is volcanic, very hard, much sought after for road building. much of the rock used in the new transmission gulley road was actually rafted over from nelson area. farms around the centre of the island are having huge rocks bought and trucked to the end of the welly airport runway. huge volcanic boulders(over two tonnes each, get two on large dumper) are worth their weight in ??? as longterm seawall foundations. most river rock is not particulaly sought after for serious rd work, its mostly taken for flood prevention. when I was involved with large scale river extraction we couldnt go below normal river height to extract and also couldnt change the course of the river. a large flood did more change(damage? you decide) than any manmade works.
I did. I disagree that floods cause more damage. It's not that humans can't make changes to rivers, but these rivers flood, that's how they have evolved. It's a cycle that's been going for long history, and the geology an living systems are adapted to that. How humans can fit into that sustainably is still to be determined.
the depressing bit is moving such materials over distances without thought for the whole systems.
if you can find a better, cheaper, longer lasting solution to seawall building, road building, general construction, etc, Im sure every civil engineer on the planet will be eager to hear from you. no engineer from pyramid builders, stonehenge builders up to anybody working today WANTS to haul construction materials any distance. but as the chinese found out, if you use any old rubbish sourced locally, your wall suffers…..as for you disagreement that floods cause less damage than metal extraction, I say (with years of actually doing it, not just being a keyboard expert)baloney. since NZ civil engineering began , there would be less material extracted from rivers than what cyclone bola washed out to sea in a week. since volcanic rock comes from only two or three rivers,(and ,as I said, is preferred for roading, seawalls etc) more is actualy being dug out of quarrys away from waterways, as local river authorities are well aware of its value and keep a close eye on river extraction. play fast and lose with your permitted take and you lose the entire extraction permit, and nobody with a gravel extraction permit wants to do that.
Extracting to protect current infrastructure makes some kind of sense. Extracting to build new roads doesn't. And maintaining seawalls needs urgent analysis in the context of climate change (everything does in fact). At what point do we look at managed retreat? Doesn't have to be now, but we should be thinking about it.
What's the damage done by rock being washed to the sea? When they dammed the Clutha, they changed not just the flow of the river, but also the flow of the ocean along the south coast westwards, which has impacted the Dunedin beaches.
And how much of the rock going out to sea now is due to deforestation and other land changes?
I'm arguing here to look at the whole system. Obviously floods do a lot of damage to human infrastructure, but how much of that is due to us ignoring how rivers actually work and working with them?
Are you sure of this? Having spent a fair amount of my earlier life scrambling over the scree fields of the Southern Alps and seen just how much material is moved downstream during a massive flood event – I'm a tad skeptical that there is any shortage of gravel.
2. Flood events have a massive impact on the riverbeds, orders of magnitude greater than any extraction humans might achieve. And our impact would be purely local to the operation, while a flood hits the entire watershed.
3. Can you be more specific on what 'messing with the mauri of the river' actually means in pragmatic terms here?
Are you sure of this? Having spent a fair amount of my earlier life scrambling over the scree fields of the Southern Alps and seen just how much material is moved downstream during a massive flood event – I'm a tad skeptical that there is any shortage of gravel.
Not sure, making an educated guess. Have also spent a fair amount of time in the mountains but in intact ecosystems, not ones like the Canterbury Plains rivers, which have been hugely altered by humans. In terms of sustainability, it's not just the x volume of rock relative to time and weather, it's about the whole system. If we just measure the one thing, we're missing the point.
However, you are the engineering and science person 🙂 so perhaps you can more easily find the research on the rock to time/weather ration?
2. Flood events have a massive impact on the riverbeds, orders of magnitude greater than any extraction humans might achieve. And our impact would be purely local to the operation, while a flood hits the entire watershed.
Local extraction wrecks local ecosystems. Nature has a process evolved over very long time that humans can't even fully comprehend or study. How would we know what the impacts are? I trust nature, because the regenerative essence is observable. I'm not seeing any regenerative essence in our extractive industries but I live in hope.
3. Can you be more specific on what 'messing with the mauri of the river' actually means in pragmatic terms here?
Think about the river places you love the most and imagine them being straightened and flattened and the banks planted in pine trees. The water still runs, there are trees on the bank, and birds in the trees. What's changed apart from the various individual elements? Do you think it's only how you feel about it that has changed, or was there something instrinsic to the place that exists whether you know about it or not?
Pragmatically, humans are part of nature and we harm ourselves when we intervene in landscapes that mess with the mauri. This is the underlying principle of why we are hurtling ourselves toward climate and ecological catastrophe.
Canterbury Regional River Gravel Management Strategy October 2012 has a summary on the adverse effects effects of gravel extraction around page 8.
It includes effects on river ecology (disturbance of river bed, water quality, pool and riffle sequences, breeding places for fish and birds etc), coastal processes (deposits of sediment/erosion) and also impacts on human health.
Yes I do understand that gravel extraction has a big impact locally as does any human activity. (Even the house you are living in as you type right now, has impacted the prior local ecology; everything humans do has an impact of some sort.)
But the localised impact of gravel extraction needs to be understood in the context of the entire river ecology over time – and that's the case that needs to be made.
yes, but that doesn't mean that if the river can replace the gravel every 200 hundred years that local extraction that has negative impacts will be ok. Which is the general mindset behind extractive industries if they are even thinking about such things.
That's a creek that's had its natural ecosystem very disrupted by humans. See how the creek sits within cleared land/pastoral farm? The original landscape would have been forest, scrubland, some wetland and the perpetual regenerative river edge ecologies that are a feature of mountain rivers.
Up catchment, there should be bush on all those hills and when it rained, that bush would have both slowed the water running into the creek, and would have sequestered water into the land itself. With deforestation you basically create a fast track of rain water into creeks.
If you look at the googlemaps on satellite you can see it's big catchment and it's pretty much all deforested. You can also see the amount of erosion happening on those hills.
I'm guessing, because I don't know that rohe. But this is a very common pattern in NZ. One could say that conventional sheep farming there is also a gravel factory. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing.
I don't know the Canterbury Plains very well, but elsewhere in the South Island, when floods move rock like that, it stops at some point and becomes the next round of the cycle as the first colonising plants come in that are then followed in succession. That's habitat for insects, skinks, birds. If the river shifts, eventually trees will grow.
Taking all or a lot of that gravel out changes the river. Changes its mauri, it's physical structure, its ecology.
This is the industrial mindset. Gravel is just physical stuff lying around that humans can use.
Whereas what's really going on is a set of complex and intricate relationships between all the things (many of which we don't know about), and which as a whole are more than the sum of the parts.
Once we step into that mindset (the interconnected nature of all the things) how we relate with all the things changes. We can still do human building things, but how we do it becomes sustainable rather than primarily extractive. This is the core of sustainability principles and it's why almost nothing we are doing currently is actually sustainable. It could be, but it requires a different kind of thinking.
Up catchment, there should be bush on all those hills and when it rained, that bush would have both slowed the water running into the creek, and would have sequestered water into the land itself.
I'm not sure if you've looked at the eastern side of the Southern Alps – in it's natural form there are scree slopes and gullies just like this creek everywhere. I've spent whole days of my life trudging over them.
The main part of the Alps is a sedimentary schist that both uplifts via the tectonic plate movement very rapidly – and erodes very rapidly. It's been doing this for millions of years – long before humans were even thought of. It was never 'stable'.
All we're doing here is tapping into a tiny fraction of a massive cycle.
those hills in the google maps aren't the high central mountains in the alps. They should have subapline then bush on them.
If you look at the mountains on the west of the divide where there's been no farming it's more obvious. Yes, scree slopes are a feature, but so are plant ecologies.
The main part of the Alps is a sedimentary schist that both uplifts via the tectonic plate movement very rapidly – and erodes very rapidly. It's been doing this for millions of years – long before humans were even thought of. It was never 'stable'.
I didn't say it was stable. I'm saying that it's in constant change, and the ecologies have adapted around that. The whole system is a regenerative system.
All we're doing here is tapping into a tiny fraction of a massive cycle.
This is like saying the water cycle is massive and irrigation take is a tiny fraction of it. Still not sustainable.
Or the carbon cycle is massive and our wee bits of coal are a tiny fraction of it.
Or the carbon cycle is massive and our wee bits of coal are a tiny fraction of it.
Not a very compelling analogy. All we're doing is shifting a tiny fraction of the gravel from one place – where it is rapidly replenished – and putting it somewhere else for a useful purpose. There is no meaningful impact comparable to climate change involved.
Yes we do run into resource constraints – and invariably what successful societies do is innovate our way around them. This idea that humans must never do anything 'extractive' is both arbitrary and self-defeating. If we had applied this rule for the whole of our evolution, you and I would not be here having this conversation.
reread my comments RL. I repeatedly said that we can still make use of resources.
If you want to know why I stop talking to you, it's exactly this. I'm making a clear and coherent argument and you just pick out sound bites and respond to them out of context and end up misrepresenting what I am saying.
It's pretty clear you don't understand what I am talking about. That's ok, but I won't have it misrepresented.
There are myriad reasons that relate to that particular application. But I didn't object to it Red, I pointed a different approach out to those who object to it.
Most rivers are clogging up with gravel due to our confinement of rivers by bridge and farm and need gravel to be pulled out to prevent man-induced 'flooding'…
… think about it though… pull all gravel out of a braided river where it leaves the hills and where do you put it? Nature naturally spreads it evenly over the plains steadily raising them. Man would put such quantities where? In one big hill? haha.
This is one of those logic things which requires thinking through to logical conclusions redlogix. One logic conclusion is that it is impossible to confine such rivers and they must be left to swing across plains, devastating farms every millenium or so…
Most rivers are clogging up with gravel due to our confinement of rivers by bridge and farm and need gravel to be pulled out to prevent man-induced 'flooding'…
Agreed. This is a common problem in many places – in some infamous instances the riverbed is often metres higher than the surrounding plains. This is an ancient trade-off riverine based agricultural societies have faced for millennia.
In the case of Cantebury it's not reasonable to demand the rivers should run unconstrained wherever they will, nor that we can control forever the immense amounts of sediment involved – over 400 million tonnes per annum. We have to pick a path in between.
No discussion of how a re-introduction of a registry of guns, like our vehicle registration system, would make the tracing of the origin of these illegally-obtained weapons easier, while also allowing another avenue of prosecution for the criminal use/distribution of firearms.
Meanwhile, the public of most commonwealth countries have been stripped of their right to bear arms for self defence because we have no Second Amendment like legislation to protect our lives. Even our police are denied the right to carry a side arm as standard kit. That has cost some policemen and members of the public their lives.
Next time you are at a boring dinner party, liven things up by saying you support the right to bear arms for self defence. The incredulous looks you receive will be a sight to behold. That's how brainwashed society has become.
You'd get incredulous looks because it's a fucking stupid idea , register every gun to the owner, absolutely nail anyone with illegal firearms to the wall,
I own a couple of rifles just incase your wondering.
"…..support the right to bear arms for self defense "
Yeah wouldn't that be just wonderful. Best everyone carry arms 24/7 because one never knows where the next threat is coming from. What could possibly go wrong with that eh
The American second amendment thing was originally meant for protection in the case of an invading country, not for Rambo wannabes to strut around imitating special forces.
The Second Amendment’s primary justification was to prevent the United States from needing a standing army.
Preventing the United States from starting a professional army, in fact, was the single most important goal of the Second Amendment. It is hard to recapture this fear today, but during the 18th century few boogeymen were as scary as the standing army — an army made up of professional, full-time soldiers.
By the logic of the 18th century, any society with a professional army could never be truly free. The men in charge of that army could order it to attack the citizens themselves, who, unarmed and unorganized, would be unable to fight back. This was why a well-regulated militia was necessary to the security of a free state: To be secure, a society needed to be able to defend itself; to be free, it could not exist merely at the whim of a standing army and its generals.
Interesting, thanks. So with the situation being much different today, there's no longer a need for citizens to stockpile the arsenal that many in the US have. Having said that I'm sure there must be some nutters over there who believe they need nukes at home just in case their military plan to use them on the people!
Well, in the minds of the gun nuts, the survivalists, the multiple-conspiracy freaks, the Deep State intending “resisters”, the OTT Democrat haters, & the New Conferderacy separatist adherents they need their guns because their “tyrannical government” is either already here , or it’s coming to get them very soon.
The gun lobby, gun manufacturers & gun retailers, & bent broadcasters like Alex Jones feed these kinds of folk a constant load of BS mixed with truth to keep them fearful, hate-filled, & armed up to the eyeball.
Gun control in the USA is a lost cause. Too many politicians in both parties are compromised by gun lobby donations & there are now so many guns out there in the community that people who wouldn’t a few years ago are now buying guns to protect themselves from armed burglars, nutters, angry neighbours, & rogue Rambo militia types, just in case.
''Yeah wouldn't that be just wonderful. Best everyone carry arms 24/7 because one never knows where the next threat is coming from. What could possibly go wrong with that eh.''
Hyperbole, and you know it. Given the reaction on this blog, how many would take the option up?
That's a knee jerk reaction – one I'm familiar with. But it's a shallow argument. For starters the size of our countries are different. The lax control of guns in the US is a problem. New Zealand would have a far different right to bear arms protocol. Police in the States are among the worst trained in the world.
Find the Wiki page showing genocide in countries stripped of their rights to bear arms – if I remember correctly it was well over 100 million.
Look, I have no problem with you or your loved ones accepting your fate at the hands of thugs. But I would prefer the right to shoot someone trying to take the most precious thing in my life – my life!
Here's an educated guess – 3 police officers to die in 2022… followed by the arming of all police officers as a matter of course. Everyone seems quiet on the arming of police officers.
"Everyone seems quiet on the arming of police officers".
Maybe in your circles!
Plenty of us don't want a US style arms race between cops and criminals, where to quote a former police union official. "The public will just have to get used to more people being shot by police".
Where police carry guns, and civilians "arm themselves for self defense" the number of violent incidents, injures and deaths increase markedly.
Fortunately the delusional idea that you need weapons for "self defense" has never caught on in NZ.
''Plenty of us don't want a US style arms race between cops and criminals,''
I agree. I think it will be a VERY sad day when our cops become armed. No doubt public interactions with police may change.
'Where police carry guns, and civilians "arm themselves for self defense" the number of violent incidents, injures and deaths increase markedly.''
I assume you are using the USA as an example to back your claim? If so, as I have stated above, NZ would never have to follow that example when implementing guns as a legal form of defence.
''Fortunately the delusional idea that you need weapons for "self defense" has never caught on in NZ.''
That's true. And there's a reason for that – there was never a need to have weapons for self defence in NZ. Our culture, for all its bloodshed, evolved in a different manner to the States.
However, times have changed. And when you tackle a problem to fit with your personal views and ideology, while refusing to take a rational and tactical approach to a situation that's costing lives… then ''delusion fool'' is a moniker that fits well.
Let's explore this issue further when the next batch of victims to gun violence happens.
No genocide in the States ( apart from native Americans). Have a look at all those countries that removed the right to owns guns. and what followed. While it is fair to call America a police state, their government would never dare cross a certain threshold. They know if that line was crossed, everyone from a Wall Street huckster to a toothless hillbilly would fight back. We have no such protection in New Zealand. We are sitting ducks if anarchy breaks out.
Incidentally, across the States, they have interment camps ready to be used.
Three police officers killed in the line of duty in one year (2022) would be an aberration, although there were four tragic deaths in 1963, and one death (Constable Matthew Hunt; 2020) in the last 10 years. Time will tell.
To me it's really frightening that there's so many flash points in society at the moment.
Sorry to read that, Blade. Yes, we face many challenges, and there's plenty for some to be fearful of – just not convinced that taking out the 'trash' is the best long-term path to making society safer.
We (society) are either all in this together, or we're not.
Tasman deathtrap: the brutal toll of Australia’s deportation policy [15 October 2018]
In the past three years, at least four New Zealand citizens have died in Australian custody or immediately following deportation, and researchers believe there are almost certainly more. The New Zealand government has no estimate of the total number of deaths, and Minister of Justice Andrew Little says his office is powerless to force a change in Australian law. “We don’t have any control over what the Australians do. We don’t have a great deal of leverage.”
Gang Intelligence Centre (GIC) The Gang Intelligence Centre (GIC) is a multi-agency unit supporting the Government’s strategic response to the harm caused by Organised Crime in New Zealand Communities with a specific focus on New Zealand Adult Gangs (NZAG).
The purpose of the Gang Intelligence Centre is to provide a holistic understanding of the harm being caused by, to, and within our New Zealand Adult Gang community, with a particular focus on the social structures and behaviours that underpin this harmful behaviour. A holistic understanding enables the identification of prevention and intervention opportunities which will enable these communities to achieve better outcomes and reduce harm.
Tis the season where crime and gun headlines get louder as people head for the beach, and with a resourced movement involved again this time. Facts merely whisper in the shade.
I’m listening. And probably so are people who watched 1ewes at 6 last night:
Detective Superintendent Greg Willams runs the National Organised Crime Group. He agreed to sit down with 1News for an extended interview on the state of the city.
… “It’s a challenging environment out there, there is no doubt about it,” he said, adding that untangling the current situation in the city was complicated, with many elements in play.
“You’ve seen a revamping of the Rebels, an expansion of the Comancheros, you’ve got existing gangs like the Head Hunters here, you’ve seen an expansion of [King Cobras]… you’re seeing that expansion and with that you’re seeing tension.”
… The attraction for many was methamphetamine, he said, with New Zealanders still paying some of the highest prices in the world for the drug, which was getting cheaper for gangs to buy at a wholesale price.
It was the prevalent drug in New Zealand, according to wastewater testing.
“A lot of the violence you are seeing here is about market control.”
Williams also spoke about Australia’s 501s deportation policy.
“The percentage of gang members that are actually coming out of that number are not massive, but they are influential, they were leaders in Australia, and they’ve really changed the whole gang scene here,” he said.
“We would [not] have seen gangs like the Comancheros if not for that process.”
He said the traditional New Zealand gangs would often resolve violence before it escalated. But, with the new players, that was not always the case anymore. “You do something, I do something bigger, you do something,” he said. “You are consequently seeing stuff here that you have never seen before.
“The firing of multiple shots into a family home, even the firepower we are seeing now is concerning. AR-15s, AK-47s, we have even seen seizure of 50 calibre machine guns… so that’s naturally concerning to us.”
Also this, in yesterday’s Herald, mentions the 501 gang deportees’ influence in organised crime & the proliferation of gun crime that is deeply concerning police AND ordinary citizens.
I had siblings come & stay for Xmas, & other rellies dropped by & visited us all here at Pookden Manor on Boxing Day. This topic came up in the conversations. Everybody was concerned about the number of shootings we hear about every week nowadays, about the number of armed offenders who’ve started shooting at police, & about the now well-reported influence of Aussie 501 deportees on escalating gang violence & firearms use by gang members in Kiwiland.
Had an xmas call from my ex-partner (now aged 70), mentioned her sister (aged 68) gave her a xmas gift that morning. A mask-wearing exemption certificate, with my ex's name on it. Since my ex has happily worn a mask the past couple of years, and sis has been a fervent Trump supporter for twice as long, ex told sis about seeing on tv news Trump informing his rally crowd that he'd just had his booster shot, and getting booed. "Ah, so that explains it! Trump must be the Antichrist!" said sis excitedly. Only extremely mentally-agile people can spin on a dime like that. My ex was vastly amused.
Needless to say, she won't be using the cert. However sis is compulsive in denial. Ex told me that blocking her sister's emails a year ago had no psychological impact whatsoever. She still gets conspiracy theories from the true believer every phone call & visit despite years of disconnecting & telling sis she's not interested.
Both women became spectacularly successful in business in the 1970s as designers & owners. Both now live mortgage-free in their own homes. Their family dynamic is friendly & enterprising. The psycho thing is regarded as eccentricity…
Introduction Computer-Assisted Translation (CAT) has revolutionized the field of translation by harnessing the power of technology to assist human translators in their work. This innovative approach combines specialized software with human expertise to improve the efficiency, accuracy, and consistency of translations. In this comprehensive article, we will delve into the ...
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“You talking about me?”The neoliberal denigration of the past was nowhere more unrelenting than in its depiction of the public service. The Post Office and the Railways were held up as being both irremediably inefficient and scandalously over-manned. Playwright Roger Hall’s “Glide Time” caricatures were presented as accurate depictions of ...
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Rob MacCulloch writes – In 2022, the Curriculum Centre at the Ministry of Education employed 308 staff, according to an Official Information Request. Earlier this week it was announced 202 of those staff were being cut. When you look up “The New Zealand Curriculum” on the Ministry of ...
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Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.State of humanity, 20242024, it feels, keeps presenting us with ever more challenges, ever more dismay.Do you give up yet? It seems to ask.No? How about this? Or this?How about this?Full story Share ...
Determining the hardest sport in the world is a subjective matter, as the difficulty level can vary depending on individual abilities, physical attributes, and experience. However, based on various factors including physical demands, technical skills, mental fortitude, and overall accomplishment, here is an exploration of some of the most challenging ...
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Abstract: Soccer, the global phenomenon captivating millions worldwide, has a rich history that spans centuries. Its origins trace back to ancient civilizations, but the modern version we know and love emerged through a complex interplay of cultural influences and innovations. This article delves into the fascinating journey of soccer’s evolution, ...
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Graham Adams writes about the $55m media fund — When Patrick Gower was asked by Mike Hosking last week what he would say to the many Newstalk ZB callers who allege the Labour government bribed media with $55 million of taxpayers’ money via the Public Interest Journalism Fund — and ...
Note: this blog post has been put together over the course of the week I followed the happenings at the conference virtually. Should recordings of the Great Debates and possibly Union Symposia mentioned below, be released sometime after the conference ends, I'll include links to the ones I participated in. ...
The following was my submission made on the “Fast Track Approvals Bill”. This potential law will give three Ministers unchecked powers, un-paralled since the days of Robert Muldoon’s “Think Big” projects.The submission is written a bit tongue-in-cheek. But it’s irreverent because the FTAB is in itself not worthy of respect. ...
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Buzz from the Beehive A few days ago, Point of Order suggested the media must be musing “on why Melissa is mute”. Our article reported that people working in the beleaguered media industry have cause to yearn for a minister as busy as Melissa Lee’s ministerial colleagues and we drew ...
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Jack Vowles writes – New Zealand is said to be suffering from ‘serious populist discontent’. An IPSOS MORI survey has reported that we have an increasing preference for strong leaders, think that the economy is rigged toward the rich and powerful, and political elites are ignoring ‘hard-working people’. ...
Chris Trotter writes – MELISSA LEE should be deprived of her ministerial warrant. Her handling – or non-handling – of the crisis engulfing the New Zealand news media has been woeful. The fate of New Zealand’s two linear television networks, a question which the Minister of Broadcasting, Communications ...
TL;DR: The podcast above features co-hosts and , along with regular guests Robert Patman on Gaza and AUKUS II, and on climate change.The six things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the ...
Policymakers rarely wish to make plain or visible their desire to dismantle environmental policy, least of all to the young. Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s the top five news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, and a discussion above between Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent ...
I like to keep an eye on what’s happening in places like the UK, the US, and over the ditch with our good mates the Aussies. Let’s call them AUKUS, for want of a better collective term. More on that in a bit.It used to be, not long ago, that ...
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Foreign Minister Winston Peters is understood to be planning a major speech within the next fortnight to clear up the confusion over whether or not New Zealand might join the AUKUS submarine project. So far, there have been conflicting signals from the Government. RNZ reported the Prime Minister yesterday in ...
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The absolute brass neck of this guy.We want more medical doctors, not more spin doctors, Luxon was saying a couple of weeks ago, and now we’re told the guy has seven salaried adults on TikTok duty. Sorry, doing social media. The absolute brass neck of it. The irony that the ...
Buzz from the Beehive Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones relishes spatting and eagerly takes issue with environmentalists who criticise his enthusiasm for resource development. He relishes helping the fishing industry too. And so today, while the media are making much of the latest culling in the public service to ...
Having written, taught and worked for the US government on issues involving unconventional warfare and terrorism for 30-odd years, two things irritate me the most when the subject is discussed in public. The first is the Johnny-come-lately academics-turned-media commentators who … Continue reading → ...
Eric Crampton writes – Kainga Ora is the government’s house building agency. It’s been building a lot of social housing. Kainga Ora has its own (but independent) consenting authority, Consentium. It’s a neat idea. Rather than have to deal with building consents across each different territorial authority, Kainga Ora ...
Muriel Newman writes – The Coalition Government says it is moving with speed to deliver campaign promises and reverse the damage done by Labour. One of their key commitments is to “defend the principle that New Zealanders are equal before the law.” To achieve this, they have pledged they “will not advance ...
Chris Trotter writes – The absence of anything resembling a fightback from the public servants currently losing their jobs is interesting. State-sector workers’ collective fatalism in the face of Coalition cutbacks indicates a surprisingly broad acceptance of impermanence in the workplace. Fifty years ago, lay-offs in the thousands ...
Mariupol, on the Azov Sea coast, was one of the first cities to suffer almost complete destruction after the start of the Ukraine War started in late February 2022. We remember the scenes of absolute destruction of the houses and city structures. The deaths of innocent civilians – many of ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – Ten years ago, I wrote the following in a Listener column: Every year around one in five new-born babies will be reliant on their caregivers benefit by Christmas. This pattern has persisted from at least 1993. For Maori the number jumps to over one in three. ...
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Hi,A friend had their 40th over the weekend and decided to theme it after Curb Your Enthusiasm fashion icon Susie Greene. Captured in my tiny kitchen before I left the house, I ending up evoking a mix of old lesbian and Hillary Clinton — both unintentional.Me vs Hillary ClintonIf you’re ...
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The schools are on holiday and the sun is shining in the seaside village and all day long I have been seeing bunches of bikes; Mums, Dads, teens and toddlers chattering, laughing, happy, having a bloody great time together. Cheers, AT, for the bits of lane you’ve added lately around the ...
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More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s newly announced review of methane emissions reduction targets hints at its desire to delay Aotearoa New Zealand’s urgent transition to a climate safe future, the Green Party said. ...
The Government must commit to the Maitai School building project for students with high and complex needs, to ensure disabled students from the top of the South Island have somewhere to learn. ...
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey and his Government colleagues have made a meal of their mental health commitments, showing how flimsy their efforts to champion the issue truly are, says Labour Mental Health spokesperson Ingrid Leary. ...
Māori are yet to see anything from this Government except cuts, reversals and taking our people backwards, Māori Development spokesperson Willie Jackson said. ...
The Coalition Government’s refusal to commit to ongoing funding for social housing is seeing the sector pull back on developments and families watch their dreams of securing a home fade away, says Labour Housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
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The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector. "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
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April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
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With submissions closing today, Macassey-Pickard says groups around the country have been supporting a huge range of people to make their submissions. ...
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A big thank you to all who run the site. much appreciated.
And ditto from me
☘❤️🐧
Desmond Tutu, now there's a life lived for good to the full.
Anti-apartheid hero Archbishop Desmond Tutu dies aged 90 | Desmond Tutu | The Guardian
Got the message of Desmond Tutu's passing on facebook this morning from political activist and leading Ratana leader, Apotoro Takiwā Kereama Pene.
Pene recollects Desmond Tutu's testimony at Hone Harawira's trial for assaulting the Auckland University Engineers racist haka party.
An activist of great strength indeed.
Yes, that story should be better known than it is. As so often, and especially with both Tutu and Mandela, time erodes the memory of who really was on the right side, and who only joined in the praise once the cause had been won.
Another link for the Tutu/Harawira court case, for anyone interested (scroll down to end):
https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/22-07-2021/three-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-1981-springboks-tour
Worth a read. Probably no NZer was closer and more attuned to the morality of Desmond Tutu than John Minto.
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/12/27/archbishop-desmond-tutu-friend-of-aotearoa-new-zealand-and-champion-of-palestinian-human-rights-dies-aged-90/
Let us also not forget he was a champion of the working class:
Washington Post, 1986
Perhaps the pro-pla****s are right: the official tolls are wrong.
/
In Cape Girardeau County, the coroner hasn’t pronounced a single person dead of COVID-19 in 2021.
Wavis Jordan, a Republican who was elected last year to serve as coroner of the 80,000-person county, says his office “doesn’t do COVID deaths.” He does not investigate deaths himself, and requires families to provide proof of a positive COVID-19 test before including it on a death certificate.
Meanwhile, deaths at home attributed to conditions with symptoms that look a lot like COVID-19 — heart attacks, Alzheimer’s and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease — increased.
“When it comes to COVID, we don’t do a test,” Jordan said, “so we don’t know if someone has COVID or not.”
https://missouriindependent.com/2021/12/22/uncounted-inaccurate-death-certificates-across-the-country-hide-the-true-toll-of-covid-19/
“When it comes to COVID, we don’t do a test,” Jordan said, “so we don’t know if someone has COVID or not.”
Now why didn't the previous President not come up with that strategy. Instead of 815,000+ deaths from Covid in the US there would've been next to none.
Jordan would seem to have all the credentials to be the first black Republican President. In real life he seems to be an assistant funeral director.
Despite his best efforts his county with a population of nearly 82,000 has still managed 204 covid deaths.
https://www.thecash-book.com/news/features/hometown-pride-wavis-jordan/
He tried.
@realDonaldTrump Cases are going up in the U.S. because we are testing far more than any other country, and ever expanding. With smaller testing we would show fewer cases!
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-26/donald-trump-tweet/12391270?nw=0
So those among us who staunchly defend our environment from the clutches of 'market forces' do a great job but are always chasing their tail… always waiting until an applicatin is made and then opposing it.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/127357334/quarry-company-wants-to-extract-thousands-of-tonnes-of-gravel-from-canterbury-riverbed
How about front-footing it instead. For the above one, apply for your own resource consent to leave the gravel in the river. Make the application cover the entire river. First-in-first-served and all that (so common in our nation…).
Sure there would be 'technicalities' and things, but fundamentally use the RMA to claim the use of resources for the betterment of society and the environment. Apply to use the gravels by leaving them in the river and letting them pass naturally down the bed for recreational purposes and for gull and tern purposes.
I have had this idea for a couple decades. Have mentioned it to the occasional person (dont mention these things to "yes, but.." types, only to "yes, lets.." types). Applications are cheap. The report would be pretty simple with little 'effect's to include. I imagine 'industry' would be all up in arms. I imagine, if it gained traction that the application would be replicated very quickly around the land. I think it is overdue to attempt. Who's keen?
"Sure there would be 'technicalities' and things, but fundamentally use the RMA to claim the use of resources for the betterment of society and the environment"
.Isnt that effectively what a Regional Council is supposed to be?
Democratic administration of publicly owned assets for the betterment of society?
Which is why the need for three waters and other reforms.
Though I think the model proposed could be improved.
Id suggest that what is needed is a better understanding (and engagement with) of democratic institutions…..never has the saying 'we get the government (or governance) we deserve' been better displayed.
You are assuming councils are "democratic organisations" rather than self perpetuating old boys clubs
Councils are democratic organisations in that their members (and their actions) can be endorsed or rejected by popular vote.
ECan
Yes….and who did Cantabrians elect in the following general elections?
Not the brightest
In your opinion…..however we have a social contract that says we accept majority decision making.
Can you please point me to the part of 3 Waters that deals with resource allocation reform.
My understanding is that 3 Waters is the amalgamation of District Council water infrastructure provision, not Regional Council resource allocation responsibilities.
Water supplies and where it drains to, are resource management issues, are they not.
3 Waters should be a resource issue, but we're too stupid to understand the water cycle as it passes through humans. That we still think of some water as waste instead of part of the flow of nutrients and energy through natural systems is why we’re in such a mess.
You mean RMA reform.
3 Waters is a governance shift and asset management plan tilt.
There's a hint in there: neither you nor anyone else has executed your idea in 20 years.
It took the Whanganui people more than that and through multiple different processes, into a global first.
Apart from noise, dust, traffic and vibration, my bet is a Notified process would have all the neighbours agreeing pretty quick. Many of the north Canterbury floods this year were caused by streams and rivers that had built up over time and were now at or above the level of the settlements around them.
Technicalities. OMG.
Can you please explain that a bit more? Built up how and why?
Moraine, boulders and silt building in the river bed of north Canterbury streams for multiple years, not cleared out, fills higher than the surrounding settlements, then a big flood like this year comes and overtops … lots of houses and surrounding farmland taken out.
natural cycle build up? Lower water flows due to less rain or irrigation take?
It is both natural cycle build up of sediment and drought (low flows) and water extraction and abstraction for irrigation. The sediment builds up and has fewer and lesser high and medium flows to wash the sediment downstream.
There is a piece by Andrea Vance that is a good starter – mainly about river ecology of Canterburys braided rivers.
Headline is – This Is How It Ends: ‘We take staggering amounts from our waterways’
Thanks! That would have been my guess. Probably some earthworks and structures to prevent flooding as well, and the inherent conflict between the river needing to flood and the humans building their houses in the way.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/300422378/this-is-how-it-ends-we-take-staggering-amounts-from-our-waterways
A good story about water mismanagement but I don't see anything on gravel extraction.
For what it's worth I'd agree that our current use of irrigated water is very inefficient and I'm not impressed at the encroachment of farmland over obvious braidplains – that's just dumb. Basically water is just too plentiful in NZ and our agriculture industry has not had much incentive to use to more effectively.
The logical path forward is to follow much of the next gen agricultural technology that Australia is starting to adopt.g, that is moving operations away from large tracts of crude irrigation, to much more sophisticated, intensive and more compact operations.
Crucially all of these trend toward needing less land for farming as we're already seeing in Europe and North America. And not using the land means it can revert back to the more natural condition we would all wish it to be in.
or, regenerative agriculture and horticulture, relocalise food growing and supply, and adopt known techniques for holding water in the landscape. All of that is already being done in New Zealand, and is by its very nature sustainable (more or less).
What you are suggesting isn't.
The braided rivers of Canterbury have been heavily modified – when a big flood comes, the dead branches of a river get revived – woe betide the human infrastructure built there. Rivers don't forget!
https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2021/06/rewilding-project-nz-braided-rivers/
Best times in my life have been living on the banks of rivers. Seen some impressive floods, and how nature manages that. Huge respect.
Not to forget stop banks, infrastructure/ activity placed in areas of risk and the expectation that we can control nature…..and that when we fail someone will make good the loses.
https://braidedrivers.org/rivers/
which bit explains what Ad is talking about?
very cool website though.
The consequences of human activities.
Losing coastal lands
“The conventional wisdom is that you harvest flood water in the winter and store it until it’s needed in the summer. However, floods are required to carry gravels to the coastal zone and if there’s not enough gravel, the waves get hungry and start eroding the land.” – Dr Scott Lanard, NIWA
Most of this sediment was once spread across coastal deltas, building the coastline outward. However, the rivers have now been confined by stop banks and levees. While this prevents them from flooding, it also stops them from wandering over the coastal lands and adding thousands of tonnes of sediment as they go. Now, instead of building up our coast, most of this gravel and sediment is carried out to sea. Except in Kaikoura where earthquakes have lifted the coastline in places, the Canterbury coastline is now eroding. Soon, long stretches of it will be inundated by rising sea levels.
https://braidedrivers.org/rivers/
Those sediments are also, topsoil!
thanks Joe.
I also understand the boundary where the seawater meets the underground fresh water water table in parts of Canterbury is moving inland. Related to irrigation take I think, but I wonder if the geology is part of it.
Apparently damming the Clutha River is part of why there are erosion problems with the Dunedin beaches. Might be issues with rivers closer to home too.
Apologoes for not being around to respopnd yesterday – the day went sideways…
All rivers need to spread across plains to spread the gravel load. Since about 100 years ago we have confined them to a single bed due to bridges mostly – bridges which were mostly built where the river;s leave the hills. As such, the gravel builds up and up and up until the bed is higher than the surrounding land.
Then it finally spills over and covers the plains again. This is such an obvious thing when seen, which is everywhere on the west coast where this process moves at speed in light of the rainfall and erosion. Check the Waiho in Franz – go to the bridge and look down river, the bed is way higher than the town and the farmland each side, contained within the stopbanks. Just last month it was finally acknowledged by those who seem to think a bulldozerer can do anything that it has reached its end-point. The suyrrounding land is doomed completely. Check it out. Then see it in every part of NZ. Every part. Particularly the gravel braided types. Same in the slow meandering mud rivers, but much slower.
Check how high every riverbed is when you drive over it this summer.
Thanks for the explanation vto. Will keep this in mind next time I'm driving through the east draining river country.
High relative to what? The surrounding land? The bridge?
Relative to what it used to be… which is difficult to nut out of course…
but one way it to try and suss by checking the piles and supports… they were generally built with deep straight piles on the bottom part and then a bracing (criss-cross, or beefier straight) structure on the top part. That top part was generally built quite a chunk above the original gravel bed… if you can't see the deep straight piles and the criss-cross part is already getting covered by gravels then it is over-full and in trouble.
also sussable by the banks… most old riverbeds have a bank down to the bed.. but nowadays most of the old banks are non-existent as the bed has filled up… if there is no deep bank down to the bed then it is getting really full of gravel…
this is happening everywhere
in the same way slips and landslides are affecting roads everywhere…. all our civil works at 50-100 years old are at the end of their time… nature has caught us up
this is a brilliant idea vto. I would say that the resource consent could be made for the river itself, as well as the local natural and human communities. The river is part of the water cycle and the recharge of both the aquifer and the surrounding land. Then the ecosystem, then specific species like the gulls. Then recreation and other ways that humans interact.
Resource, as re-source. Make the case for sustainability, actual sustainability.
I don't know the RMA so don't know if this would be possible, but either it is and it's a precedent setting process, or it isn't and it's an excellent piece of activism to wake people up.
Getting local buy in would be good, and having an established organisation that does activism to back it or run it. Forest and Bird? Or one of the scrappier ones who can go out on a limb.
Or just do it as an couple of individuals who can run the thing and see it through.
I'd be into putting a post up about this.
Thanks weka, it has been on ,my mind for years and I might just take it up as some time has freed up this next period…
would love to hear how you get on.
Exactly why are we objecting to the removal of gravel from a riverbed?
Some of that is about how stone is extracted (so theoretically at least, it's not a blanket no). But we're such a long way from being able to take small amounts respectfully with regards to the river itself and the other life that has needs and relationships with the river.
I would hazard a guess that it affects the local water cycles and flows as well, but don't know the rivers in question.
We need to look at extraction of stone in the whole system too. How much water is being extracted, how much deforestation, how much mitigation to prevent flooding of human spaces, how much pollution from farming are some of the pieces.
you also need to look at each river individually. for instance, rangitikei river rock is volcanic, very hard, much sought after for road building. much of the rock used in the new transmission gulley road was actually rafted over from nelson area. farms around the centre of the island are having huge rocks bought and trucked to the end of the welly airport runway. huge volcanic boulders(over two tonnes each, get two on large dumper) are worth their weight in ??? as longterm seawall foundations. most river rock is not particulaly sought after for serious rd work, its mostly taken for flood prevention. when I was involved with large scale river extraction we couldnt go below normal river height to extract and also couldnt change the course of the river. a large flood did more change(damage? you decide) than any manmade works.
fuck, that's depressing. Thanks though, I can feel a post coming on.
perhaps you should read the last sentence a few times…..
I did. I disagree that floods cause more damage. It's not that humans can't make changes to rivers, but these rivers flood, that's how they have evolved. It's a cycle that's been going for long history, and the geology an living systems are adapted to that. How humans can fit into that sustainably is still to be determined.
the depressing bit is moving such materials over distances without thought for the whole systems.
if you can find a better, cheaper, longer lasting solution to seawall building, road building, general construction, etc, Im sure every civil engineer on the planet will be eager to hear from you. no engineer from pyramid builders, stonehenge builders up to anybody working today WANTS to haul construction materials any distance. but as the chinese found out, if you use any old rubbish sourced locally, your wall suffers…..as for you disagreement that floods cause less damage than metal extraction, I say (with years of actually doing it, not just being a keyboard expert)baloney. since NZ civil engineering began , there would be less material extracted from rivers than what cyclone bola washed out to sea in a week. since volcanic rock comes from only two or three rivers,(and ,as I said, is preferred for roading, seawalls etc) more is actualy being dug out of quarrys away from waterways, as local river authorities are well aware of its value and keep a close eye on river extraction. play fast and lose with your permitted take and you lose the entire extraction permit, and nobody with a gravel extraction permit wants to do that.
Extracting to protect current infrastructure makes some kind of sense. Extracting to build new roads doesn't. And maintaining seawalls needs urgent analysis in the context of climate change (everything does in fact). At what point do we look at managed retreat? Doesn't have to be now, but we should be thinking about it.
What's the damage done by rock being washed to the sea? When they dammed the Clutha, they changed not just the flow of the river, but also the flow of the ocean along the south coast westwards, which has impacted the Dunedin beaches.
And how much of the rock going out to sea now is due to deforestation and other land changes?
I'm arguing here to look at the whole system. Obviously floods do a lot of damage to human infrastructure, but how much of that is due to us ignoring how rivers actually work and working with them?
And now there's a five hectare yards worth all the way from Ruatiti.
https://twitter.com/HorizonsRC/status/1459021393887178754
Pretty sure them rocks are coming from under the mountain by ohakune, not down the ruatiti,
Yeah.
Near the viaduct on Old Coach road?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/whanganui-chronicle/news/company-chosen-to-supply-rock-for-whanganui-river-mole-repairs/74K6KO6BC2XUF7DX3IB6R67EDA/
2. Flood events have a massive impact on the riverbeds, orders of magnitude greater than any extraction humans might achieve. And our impact would be purely local to the operation, while a flood hits the entire watershed.
3. Can you be more specific on what 'messing with the mauri of the river' actually means in pragmatic terms here?
Not sure, making an educated guess. Have also spent a fair amount of time in the mountains but in intact ecosystems, not ones like the Canterbury Plains rivers, which have been hugely altered by humans. In terms of sustainability, it's not just the x volume of rock relative to time and weather, it's about the whole system. If we just measure the one thing, we're missing the point.
However, you are the engineering and science person 🙂 so perhaps you can more easily find the research on the rock to time/weather ration?
Local extraction wrecks local ecosystems. Nature has a process evolved over very long time that humans can't even fully comprehend or study. How would we know what the impacts are? I trust nature, because the regenerative essence is observable. I'm not seeing any regenerative essence in our extractive industries but I live in hope.
Think about the river places you love the most and imagine them being straightened and flattened and the banks planted in pine trees. The water still runs, there are trees on the bank, and birds in the trees. What's changed apart from the various individual elements? Do you think it's only how you feel about it that has changed, or was there something instrinsic to the place that exists whether you know about it or not?
Pragmatically, humans are part of nature and we harm ourselves when we intervene in landscapes that mess with the mauri. This is the underlying principle of why we are hurtling ourselves toward climate and ecological catastrophe.
Canterbury Regional River Gravel Management Strategy October 2012 has a summary on the adverse effects effects of gravel extraction around page 8.
It includes effects on river ecology (disturbance of river bed, water quality, pool and riffle sequences, breeding places for fish and birds etc), coastal processes (deposits of sediment/erosion) and also impacts on human health.
There are pluses too of course.
Yes I do understand that gravel extraction has a big impact locally as does any human activity. (Even the house you are living in as you type right now, has impacted the prior local ecology; everything humans do has an impact of some sort.)
But the localised impact of gravel extraction needs to be understood in the context of the entire river ecology over time – and that's the case that needs to be made.
yes, but that doesn't mean that if the river can replace the gravel every 200 hundred years that local extraction that has negative impacts will be ok. Which is the general mindset behind extractive industries if they are even thinking about such things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AwFSSX34Wo
Cool video.
That's a creek that's had its natural ecosystem very disrupted by humans. See how the creek sits within cleared land/pastoral farm? The original landscape would have been forest, scrubland, some wetland and the perpetual regenerative river edge ecologies that are a feature of mountain rivers.
Up catchment, there should be bush on all those hills and when it rained, that bush would have both slowed the water running into the creek, and would have sequestered water into the land itself. With deforestation you basically create a fast track of rain water into creeks.
If you look at the googlemaps on satellite you can see it's big catchment and it's pretty much all deforested. You can also see the amount of erosion happening on those hills.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glenfalloch+Station+Todhunter/@-43.3207149,171.2261542,2389m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!3m7!1s0x0:0xc61fb1613df19d9d!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d-43.3057886!4d171.2191594?hl=en
I'm guessing, because I don't know that rohe. But this is a very common pattern in NZ. One could say that conventional sheep farming there is also a gravel factory. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing.
I don't know the Canterbury Plains very well, but elsewhere in the South Island, when floods move rock like that, it stops at some point and becomes the next round of the cycle as the first colonising plants come in that are then followed in succession. That's habitat for insects, skinks, birds. If the river shifts, eventually trees will grow.
Taking all or a lot of that gravel out changes the river. Changes its mauri, it's physical structure, its ecology.
This is the industrial mindset. Gravel is just physical stuff lying around that humans can use.
Whereas what's really going on is a set of complex and intricate relationships between all the things (many of which we don't know about), and which as a whole are more than the sum of the parts.
Once we step into that mindset (the interconnected nature of all the things) how we relate with all the things changes. We can still do human building things, but how we do it becomes sustainable rather than primarily extractive. This is the core of sustainability principles and it's why almost nothing we are doing currently is actually sustainable. It could be, but it requires a different kind of thinking.
Up catchment, there should be bush on all those hills and when it rained, that bush would have both slowed the water running into the creek, and would have sequestered water into the land itself.
I'm not sure if you've looked at the eastern side of the Southern Alps – in it's natural form there are scree slopes and gullies just like this creek everywhere. I've spent whole days of my life trudging over them.
The main part of the Alps is a sedimentary schist that both uplifts via the tectonic plate movement very rapidly – and erodes very rapidly. It's been doing this for millions of years – long before humans were even thought of. It was never 'stable'.
All we're doing here is tapping into a tiny fraction of a massive cycle.
those hills in the google maps aren't the high central mountains in the alps. They should have subapline then bush on them.
If you look at the mountains on the west of the divide where there's been no farming it's more obvious. Yes, scree slopes are a feature, but so are plant ecologies.
I didn't say it was stable. I'm saying that it's in constant change, and the ecologies have adapted around that. The whole system is a regenerative system.
This is like saying the water cycle is massive and irrigation take is a tiny fraction of it. Still not sustainable.
Or the carbon cycle is massive and our wee bits of coal are a tiny fraction of it.
Or the carbon cycle is massive and our wee bits of coal are a tiny fraction of it.
Not a very compelling analogy. All we're doing is shifting a tiny fraction of the gravel from one place – where it is rapidly replenished – and putting it somewhere else for a useful purpose. There is no meaningful impact comparable to climate change involved.
Yes we do run into resource constraints – and invariably what successful societies do is innovate our way around them. This idea that humans must never do anything 'extractive' is both arbitrary and self-defeating. If we had applied this rule for the whole of our evolution, you and I would not be here having this conversation.
reread my comments RL. I repeatedly said that we can still make use of resources.
If you want to know why I stop talking to you, it's exactly this. I'm making a clear and coherent argument and you just pick out sound bites and respond to them out of context and end up misrepresenting what I am saying.
It's pretty clear you don't understand what I am talking about. That's ok, but I won't have it misrepresented.
There are myriad reasons that relate to that particular application. But I didn't object to it Red, I pointed a different approach out to those who object to it.
Most rivers are clogging up with gravel due to our confinement of rivers by bridge and farm and need gravel to be pulled out to prevent man-induced 'flooding'…
… think about it though… pull all gravel out of a braided river where it leaves the hills and where do you put it? Nature naturally spreads it evenly over the plains steadily raising them. Man would put such quantities where? In one big hill? haha.
This is one of those logic things which requires thinking through to logical conclusions redlogix. One logic conclusion is that it is impossible to confine such rivers and they must be left to swing across plains, devastating farms every millenium or so…
Most rivers are clogging up with gravel due to our confinement of rivers by bridge and farm and need gravel to be pulled out to prevent man-induced 'flooding'…
Agreed. This is a common problem in many places – in some infamous instances the riverbed is often metres higher than the surrounding plains. This is an ancient trade-off riverine based agricultural societies have faced for millennia.
In the case of Cantebury it's not reasonable to demand the rivers should run unconstrained wherever they will, nor that we can control forever the immense amounts of sediment involved – over 400 million tonnes per annum. We have to pick a path in between.
Present for Robert G.
https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p09m0v4x/extinct-tree-from-the-time-of-jesus-rises-from-the-dead
very cool, thanks.
Thanks for that short video, HS. Really interesting.
What an absolutely stunning achievement❗️
Well done, Dr. Sarah Sallon and Dr. Elaine Solowey!
More info:
https://rootandvinenews.com/from-extinction-to-resurrection-the-judean-date-palm-tree/
Thank you, HS – that's very encouraging!
Shared that with family. A real Christmas tree. Life is tenacious.
RNZ
No discussion of how a re-introduction of a registry of guns, like our vehicle registration system, would make the tracing of the origin of these illegally-obtained weapons easier, while also allowing another avenue of prosecution for the criminal use/distribution of firearms.
Meanwhile, the public of most commonwealth countries have been stripped of their right to bear arms for self defence because we have no Second Amendment like legislation to protect our lives. Even our police are denied the right to carry a side arm as standard kit. That has cost some policemen and members of the public their lives.
Next time you are at a boring dinner party, liven things up by saying you support the right to bear arms for self defence. The incredulous looks you receive will be a sight to behold. That's how brainwashed society has become.
You'd get incredulous looks because it's a fucking stupid idea , register every gun to the owner, absolutely nail anyone with illegal firearms to the wall,
I own a couple of rifles just incase your wondering.
Yes.
"…..support the right to bear arms for self defense "
Yeah wouldn't that be just wonderful. Best everyone carry arms 24/7 because one never knows where the next threat is coming from. What could possibly go wrong with that eh
The American second amendment thing was originally meant for protection in the case of an invading country, not for Rambo wannabes to strut around imitating special forces.
Last sentence not quite correct.
The Second Amendment’s primary justification was to prevent the United States from needing a standing army.
Preventing the United States from starting a professional army, in fact, was the single most important goal of the Second Amendment. It is hard to recapture this fear today, but during the 18th century few boogeymen were as scary as the standing army — an army made up of professional, full-time soldiers.
By the logic of the 18th century, any society with a professional army could never be truly free. The men in charge of that army could order it to attack the citizens themselves, who, unarmed and unorganized, would be unable to fight back. This was why a well-regulated militia was necessary to the security of a free state: To be secure, a society needed to be able to defend itself; to be free, it could not exist merely at the whim of a standing army and its generals.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/02/22/what-the-second-amendment-really-meant-to-the-founders/
Interesting, thanks. So with the situation being much different today, there's no longer a need for citizens to stockpile the arsenal that many in the US have. Having said that I'm sure there must be some nutters over there who believe they need nukes at home just in case their military plan to use them on the people!
Well, in the minds of the gun nuts, the survivalists, the multiple-conspiracy freaks, the Deep State intending “resisters”, the OTT Democrat haters, & the New Conferderacy separatist adherents they need their guns because their “tyrannical government” is either already here , or it’s coming to get them very soon.
The gun lobby, gun manufacturers & gun retailers, & bent broadcasters like Alex Jones feed these kinds of folk a constant load of BS mixed with truth to keep them fearful, hate-filled, & armed up to the eyeball.
Gun control in the USA is a lost cause. Too many politicians in both parties are compromised by gun lobby donations & there are now so many guns out there in the community that people who wouldn’t a few years ago are now buying guns to protect themselves from armed burglars, nutters, angry neighbours, & rogue Rambo militia types, just in case.
Exactly Gezza. But you try to convince the NRA and the 1m odd gun nuts in the US of this reality. 🙁
The 2nd Amendment is perhaps the most misunderstood and most abused amendment in the whole US constitution. The 5th comes a close second IMHO.
Happy new year to you to, Gezza.
''Yeah wouldn't that be just wonderful. Best everyone carry arms 24/7 because one never knows where the next threat is coming from. What could possibly go wrong with that eh.''
Hyperbole, and you know it. Given the reaction on this blog, how many would take the option up?
"right to bear arms in self defense"?
FFS this is American BS. We do not need it here. If we want to go hunting we get a hunting licence for hunting weapons. NOBODY needs anything else.
I have been resisting the tempation to point out all men/women have the right to 2 arms!!
But i won't.
Would you roll with grizzly or panda?
Im not going to panda to that!!!
It's outrageous how ancient rights like beating your slaves have been taken away from us. Snowflakes will get us all killed.
@ Blade
1. Happy Christmas. Hope you have a great 2022.
2. Still the best ever commentary on US citizens' 2nd Amendment right to bear arms…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0
And Part 2
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4
Where police are routinely armed.
A lot more police and innocent civilians get killed.
"Arms" for "self defense" is a daft idea. As the USA so graphically illustrates.
That's a knee jerk reaction – one I'm familiar with. But it's a shallow argument. For starters the size of our countries are different. The lax control of guns in the US is a problem. New Zealand would have a far different right to bear arms protocol. Police in the States are among the worst trained in the world.
Find the Wiki page showing genocide in countries stripped of their rights to bear arms – if I remember correctly it was well over 100 million.
Look, I have no problem with you or your loved ones accepting your fate at the hands of thugs. But I would prefer the right to shoot someone trying to take the most precious thing in my life – my life!
One based on facts.
Not your reckons.
Exactly.
Here's an educated guess – 3 police officers to die in 2022… followed by the arming of all police officers as a matter of course. Everyone seems quiet on the arming of police officers.
"Everyone seems quiet on the arming of police officers".
Maybe in your circles!
Plenty of us don't want a US style arms race between cops and criminals, where to quote a former police union official. "The public will just have to get used to more people being shot by police".
Where police carry guns, and civilians "arm themselves for self defense" the number of violent incidents, injures and deaths increase markedly.
Fortunately the delusional idea that you need weapons for "self defense" has never caught on in NZ.
Apart from a few delusional fools!
''Plenty of us don't want a US style arms race between cops and criminals,''
I agree. I think it will be a VERY sad day when our cops become armed. No doubt public interactions with police may change.
'Where police carry guns, and civilians "arm themselves for self defense" the number of violent incidents, injures and deaths increase markedly.''
I assume you are using the USA as an example to back your claim? If so, as I have stated above, NZ would never have to follow that example when implementing guns as a legal form of defence.
''Fortunately the delusional idea that you need weapons for "self defense" has never caught on in NZ.''
That's true. And there's a reason for that – there was never a need to have weapons for self defence in NZ. Our culture, for all its bloodshed, evolved in a different manner to the States.
However, times have changed. And when you tackle a problem to fit with your personal views and ideology, while refusing to take a rational and tactical approach to a situation that's costing lives… then ''delusion fool'' is a moniker that fits well.
Let's explore this issue further when the next batch of victims to gun violence happens.
The fallacy that you need "weapons for self defense" in the USA, is the reason why they have such a huge gun problem.
No genocide in the States ( apart from native Americans). Have a look at all those countries that removed the right to owns guns. and what followed. While it is fair to call America a police state, their government would never dare cross a certain threshold. They know if that line was crossed, everyone from a Wall Street huckster to a toothless hillbilly would fight back. We have no such protection in New Zealand. We are sitting ducks if anarchy breaks out.
Incidentally, across the States, they have interment camps ready to be used.
Three police officers killed in the line of duty in one year (2022) would be an aberration, although there were four tragic deaths in 1963, and one death (Constable Matthew Hunt; 2020) in the last 10 years. Time will tell.
Yes, its a big call DMK. It's predicated on the following.
1- The P trade exploding as more people turn to drugs as the hopelessness of our countries predicament becomes apparent to many Kiwis.
2-Gang numbers continue to increase markedly.
3- The breakdown of social order as NZ becomes fractionalised.
4- The lost generation of school kids not going to school.
5- Unending economic pressure on the middleclass.
6- Maori using Covid as an excuse to implement exclusion zones.
7- The break down of our health system.
8- Police losing respect for their job.
To me it's really frightening that there's so many flash points in society at the moment.
Sorry to read that, Blade. Yes, we face many challenges, and there's plenty for some to be fearful of – just not convinced that taking out the 'trash' is the best long-term path to making society safer.
We (society) are either all in this together, or we're not.
If you choose to ignore the fact that violent crime is not rising…..
Just the publicity around it.
Tis the season where crime and gun headlines get louder as people head for the beach, and with a resourced movement involved again this time. Facts merely whisper in the shade.
(click on table in tweet to expand)
https://twitter.com/pattisonian_nz/status/1475205249337942017
One whisper gets louder… 501, 501, 501!
You're onto it mate, problem is most people on this site won't listen to reason on this subject
I’m listening. And probably so are people who watched 1ewes at 6 last night:
Detective Superintendent Greg Willams runs the National Organised Crime Group. He agreed to sit down with 1News for an extended interview on the state of the city.
…
“It’s a challenging environment out there, there is no doubt about it,” he said, adding that untangling the current situation in the city was complicated, with many elements in play.
“You’ve seen a revamping of the Rebels, an expansion of the Comancheros, you’ve got existing gangs like the Head Hunters here, you’ve seen an expansion of [King Cobras]… you’re seeing that expansion and with that you’re seeing tension.”
…
The attraction for many was methamphetamine, he said, with New Zealanders still paying some of the highest prices in the world for the drug, which was getting cheaper for gangs to buy at a wholesale price.
It was the prevalent drug in New Zealand, according to wastewater testing.
“A lot of the violence you are seeing here is about market control.”
Williams also spoke about Australia’s 501s deportation policy.
“The percentage of gang members that are actually coming out of that number are not massive, but they are influential, they were leaders in Australia, and they’ve really changed the whole gang scene here,” he said.
“We would [not] have seen gangs like the Comancheros if not for that process.”
He said the traditional New Zealand gangs would often resolve violence before it escalated. But, with the new players, that was not always the case anymore. “You do something, I do something bigger, you do something,” he said. “You are consequently seeing stuff here that you have never seen before.
“The firing of multiple shots into a family home, even the firepower we are seeing now is concerning. AR-15s, AK-47s, we have even seen seizure of 50 calibre machine guns… so that’s naturally concerning to us.”
https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/12/26/gangs-and-guns-seeing-stuff-here-that-you-have-never-seen-before/
Also this, in yesterday’s Herald, mentions the 501 gang deportees’ influence in organised crime & the proliferation of gun crime that is deeply concerning police AND ordinary citizens.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/auckland-shootings-australian-501-policy-blamed-for-rise-in-gang-violence/EQ26GY2ZJDUPGPUHVLD4HL2YM4/
I had siblings come & stay for Xmas, & other rellies dropped by & visited us all here at Pookden Manor on Boxing Day. This topic came up in the conversations. Everybody was concerned about the number of shootings we hear about every week nowadays, about the number of armed offenders who’ve started shooting at police, & about the now well-reported influence of Aussie 501 deportees on escalating gang violence & firearms use by gang members in Kiwiland.
Most people on this site like evidence.
Not Gossip!
What about Hot Gossip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hVq-XwsAOY
Had an xmas call from my ex-partner (now aged 70), mentioned her sister (aged 68) gave her a xmas gift that morning. A mask-wearing exemption certificate, with my ex's name on it. Since my ex has happily worn a mask the past couple of years, and sis has been a fervent Trump supporter for twice as long, ex told sis about seeing on tv news Trump informing his rally crowd that he'd just had his booster shot, and getting booed. "Ah, so that explains it! Trump must be the Antichrist!" said sis excitedly. Only extremely mentally-agile people can spin on a dime like that. My ex was vastly amused.
Needless to say, she won't be using the cert. However sis is compulsive in denial. Ex told me that blocking her sister's emails a year ago had no psychological impact whatsoever. She still gets conspiracy theories from the true believer every phone call & visit despite years of disconnecting & telling sis she's not interested.
Both women became spectacularly successful in business in the 1970s as designers & owners. Both now live mortgage-free in their own homes. Their family dynamic is friendly & enterprising. The psycho thing is regarded as eccentricity…