Open mike 27/05/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 27th, 2013 - 144 comments
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144 comments on “Open mike 27/05/2013”

  1. Morrissey 1

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    No. 13: Barack Hussein Obama

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —President Hopey Changey defends the use of unmanned drones in Pakistan, Yemen, Iraq and Afghanistan.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/obama-drones_n_3327094.html

    See also….
    No. 12: UK Min. of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of …the UK’s top priorities.”
    No. 11: Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”
    No. 10: Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    No. 9: NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    No. 8: Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question” 

    No. 7: Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633295

    No. 6: NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”

    No. 5: Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.” 

    No. 4: Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”

    
No. 3: John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
 

    No. 2: Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.” (TV3 News, 24 April 2013)
    No. 1: Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

    • Lanthanide 1.1

      Once again, where is your evidence that the drones have not saved lives?

      Obviously, killing people is costing a life. But on the flip-side, if you don’t kill a terrorist, they may go on to kill many many other people later on. Obviously the US believes they have evidence that this is the case.

      Now, you’re free to call him a liar, but equally I am free to call you on that and ask for the evidence upon which you make that accusation. Without any evidence provided on your part, myself and others will have to judge your claim as simply a matter of “he-said she-said”.

      Finally, I see that you use Barack Obama’s full name, including his middle name Hussein, when you have not done so for anyone else on your list, including the previous mention of Obama. I can only presume you’re trying to highlight his surname for the same sorts of reasons that nutbag righties do in the US.

      • vto 1.1.1

        .
        terrorist

        guerilla

        freedom fighter

        resistance

        opposition forces

        defence forces

        attack forces

        coalition forces

        who is which and who is what? Who kills the most people? Who kills the most civilians? Who has the biggest bombs? Who has the most weapons? Who has set off the most and biggest bombs? Who is an occupying force? Who has let off nuclear bombs? Which countrys populations are most at risk?

      • Professor Longhair 1.1.2

        One “Lanthanide” is indulging herself, and no doubt irritating the rest of us, with her vile little games of cod-logic….

        “Obviously, killing people is costing a life.”

        But that is not so obvious, according to what you go on to assert, as you obediently channel the president of the United States.

        “But on the flip-side, if you don’t kill a terrorist, they [sic] may go on to kill many many other people later on.”

        You mean, if you don’t kill a Pakistani child, it may go on to kill many many other people later on. Following your logic, when these remotely operated drones kill an entire wedding party, as they have on several occasions in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, they are saving (using your obscene multiplier) hundreds, maybe thousands of lives. Ergo, the more of them we kill, the more of us (times five or six) we save.

        The math is irrefutable! Madam, you are a cut-price A.C. Grayling! You are a Kiwi Christopher Hitchens! You are an Antipodean Alan Dershowitz! You should join the Sensible Sentencing Trust immediately; they think just like you.

        “If you don’t kill a Pakistani, he or she may go to kill many many other people later on.” You could, of course, say the same thing about killing an American child. So why don’t you?

        • ghostrider888 1.1.2.1

          Grayling. sigh
          Dershowitz. deeper sigh.

        • Populuxe1 1.1.2.2

          ““If you don’t kill a Pakistani, he or she may go to kill many many other people later on.” You could, of course, say the same thing about killing an American child. So why don’t you?”

          Ah you sad, straw man manipulating boobie – Lanth said “terrorist”, not “Pakistani”. Most of us understand those to be separate categories even if the sets overlap.

          • Morrissey 1.1.2.2.1

            Ah you sad, straw man manipulating boobie – Lanth said “terrorist”, not “Pakistani”.

            The Professor made it clear that he was translating Lanthanide’s weasel words into plain English.

            Most of us understand those to be separate categories even if the sets overlap.

            The sets overlap far more substantially and far more obviously when they are sets labelled “Terrorists” and “Americans”; using Lanthanide’s way of thinking, we should be sending unmanned drones into the mountains of West Virginia and the poorest parts of Texas, from where many of the young men carrying out things like the following are drawn…..

            http://morallowground.com/2012/04/18/us-82nd-airborne-soldiers-posed-for-photos-with-body-parts-of-dead-afghan-resistance-fighters/

            • Lanthanide 1.1.2.2.1.1

              So no evidence then, Morrissey. You’re making a habit of this.

              Also no hint as to why you suddenly changed tradition and mention Obama’s middle name.

              • Morrissey

                So no evidence then, Morrissey.

                “No evidence”? “No evidence” of WHAT? Are you saying there is “no evidence” that the United States has killed, and continues to kill, civilians in these countries with unmanned drones?

                You’re making a habit of this.

                I make a point of correcting your silly and invalid complaints. That’s a chore, not a habit.

                Also no hint as to why you suddenly changed tradition and mention Obama’s middle name.

                Ahhhh…. we have a conspiracy theory! The ol’ “Mention the Middle Name” trick! Do you think I’m working for the Tea Party folks, perhaps? Or is it Donald Trump? Maybe I’m a Mossad operative! Whatever, it’s sinister, all right. No doubt about it….

                • Lanthanide

                  Evidence that he is lying, obviously.

                  I mean duh. You called him a liar, where’s the evidence that he’s lying. Where is the evidence that him saying “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.” is a lie?

                  Ahhhh…. we have a conspiracy theory! The ol’ “Mention the Middle Name” trick! Do you think I’m working for the Tea Party folks, perhaps? Or is it Donald Trump? Maybe I’m a Mossad operative! Whatever, it’s sinister, all right. No doubt about it….

                  So no explanation as to why you did it then. Obviously you must have had a reason, or you wouldn’t have done it. Unless you just do things for no reason at all, like call people liars.

                  • Morrissey

                    Poor, desperate Lanthanide is choking on conspiracy theory overload. Better watch yourselves, fellow Standardistas, for we have a master of semiotics on the case, deconstructing every suspicious move we make….

                    Obviously you must have had a reason, or you wouldn’t have done it.

                    Let us know when the Space Shuttle returns to Planet Earth, will you, Lanthanide? Then we can send you off on your next assignment: parsing the suspicious way that John Key dresses….
                    http://static.stuff.co.nz/1233108507/577/246577.jpg

                    That exceptionally dark charcoal suit. That eggshell blue necktie—and did you notice how it’s suspiciously off-centre? Just a little bit, but there’s obviously a reason for it. And you’re JUST THE PERSON to ferret out the ugly truth!

                    • Lanthanide

                      🙄

                    • felix

                      Morrissey why won’t you put Lanth’s criticism to rest by putting up your evidence?

                      Until you do, the criticism stands.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Agree, felix. I saw Moz’s comment this morning but ignored it because it was so dull and obvious. But I’m really glad that Lanth pointed out the Tea Partyish use of the middle name, which I hadn’t spotted. Says a lot about Morrissey that he’s too chicken to defend himself for using a right wing meme. Because I’m charitable, I imagine it was an unthinking use of that tired old racist dog whistle.

                      And accusing others of conspiracy theories? Pot, meet world’s most self deluded kettle. That’s almost as funny as Moz saying the other day that he takes care to be accurate in his contributions.

                      Anyhoo, Moz. I’m keen to hear the answers to Lanth’s perfectly reasonable questions. Over to you.

                    • Morrissey

                      Morrissey why won’t you put Lanth’s criticism to rest by putting up your evidence?

                      You and Lanthanide both know there is ample evidence that U.S. drones, operated in perfect safety by young men sitting in air-conditioned offices in Colorado, have killed and continue to kill, hundreds of civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Yemen. You say I can “put Lanth’s criticism to rest” by posting up evidence of something she and everybody else on this forum knows is widespread and irrefutable. Has she heard of the word “Google”, perchance?

                      Anyway, since I always like to be obliging, even for people trying to irritate and fluster me, I’ll provide her with a few links. I know you’re already on top of this one, felix, but you might like to refresh your knowledge of this scandalous issue as well….
                      http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mit-s-noam-chomsky-obama-s-running-global-assassination-campaign
                      http://tribune.com.pk/story/555117/unhcr-chief-profoundly-disturbed-on-use-of-armed-drones-in-pakistan/

                      As a bonus, here’s a clip on the issue by one of the few rock bands with any conscience or intelligence….

                      And, not that they count, of course, but here’s what those towel-heads think about their country being targeted by remote-controlled robot planes….
                      http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/24/how-pakistanis-reacted-to-obamas-speech-on-drones/
                      http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57586008/angry-pakistanis-fight-to-end-u.s-drone-strikes/

                      Until you do, the criticism stands.

                      Filibustering is not criticism. Our dear friend is merely trying to take some control of this exchange by having me waste my time looking up links which are known and understood. Her tactic is as ridiculous as it is reprehensible.

                    • Morrissey

                      Agree, felix. I saw Moz’s comment this morning but ignored it because it was so dull and obvious.

                      Good, you recognize that reminding people that Pres. Hopey Changey is a liar was a reiteration of the obvious. The rather mean “dull” slur is a matter of opinion; I’ll leave others to judge how much they respect yours on this matter.

                      But I’m really glad that Lanth pointed out the Tea Partyish use of the middle name, which I hadn’t spotted.

                      “Hadn’t spotted”!?! Oh, come ON, Te Reo! Is it drink? Have you been “mixing your medications”? Oh my God, please tell me you’re not experimenting with that marihuana!

                      While we’re on the topic of you not spotting things, you also failed to spot my use of a Sarah Palin zinger. Come ON, Te Reo!

                      Says a lot about Morrissey that he’s too chicken to defend himself for using a right wing meme. Because I’m charitable, I imagine it was an unthinking use of that tired old racist dog whistle.

                      Yep, as I pointed out to Lanthanide yesterday, I might be a Mossad spy as well. Be very afraid, Te Reo. And Lanthanide, I’d change my daily routine for the next fortnight or so, just to be safe….

        • Lanthanide 1.1.2.3

          himself*, his*, etc.

          • North 1.1.2.3.1

            L, forgive me, but you’re a bore. A Beltway bore. Dispositionally you and Morrissey are light years apart. Don’t let it worry you so. Seems Morrissey don’t give a fuck. Emulate that.

            • ratesarerevolting 1.1.2.3.1.1

              more Morrisey sock puppets … fuck you Breen you turd.

              [lprent: nope, and don’t speculate. Next person I see doing it gets a weeks ban, and I will double it for each successive instance. I am tired of writing these notes. ]

            • Lanthanide 1.1.2.3.1.2

              Not sure how I’m a beltway bore, living in CHCH and having nothing more to do with politics than posting on this blog and voting in elections…

              And yes, I realise Morrissey is much better in the words and thoughts department than I am – I freely admit it. But that doesn’t mean he gets to spout nonsense wherever he likes and then get away without backing up any of this thoughts or words with a skerrick of evidence.

              • Morrissey

                Not sure how I’m a beltway bore, living in CHCH and having nothing more to do with politics than posting on this blog and voting in elections…

                I don’t think you’re a bore, Lanthanide. In fact I find your posts to be interesting and very well argued, usually.

                And yes, I realise Morrissey is much better in the words and thoughts department than I am – I freely admit it.

                Actually, I don’t think you are being fair on yourself. I have never, ever thought that I am superior to you; if I had thought that, I would not bother to argue with you like I occasionally do.

                But that doesn’t mean he gets to spout nonsense wherever he likes and then get away without backing up any of this thoughts or words with a skerrick of evidence.

                I think you should look at my posts again, and then think again about whether I don’t back up what I write. I’m sure that what you say holds true in many instances, but in respect to what we’ve been disputing over the last few days, I think you’re being a little harsh.

  2. Jenny 2

    Congratulations to Hone Harawira and the Mana Party are due. They have wrung a major concession from the Nacts.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8719431/Food-in-schools-programme-imminent-PM

    Mana has shown the way small parties can successfully operate in government. Building a large campaign about an issue that they care about, both inside and outside parliament to pressure the main parties.

    This pattern of operation is one that the Green Party has followed in their campaign against the partial privatisation of state assets. Which in my opinion has put the Nats programme under a lot of pressure.

    National, in introducing their programme to “Feed the Kids”, were forced to address the question of childhood poverty under pressure from Mana and their allies, inside and outside parliament.

    It is not a state run programme that Harawira outlined in his private members bill, (due to come up in July), being instead based on private and corporate charity rather than government aid. But still it is a major concession.

    This is how with few MPs and little money, Rod Donald’s campaign for MMP won through, against a powerful and well funded conservative lobby with millions of dollars behind them.

    The other strategy that small parties can adopt. Is the one followed by the Alliance and the Maori Party. That is trading principals away for influence, and so called, “seats at the top table”.

  3. Boadicea 3

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    Albert Einstein

    What is Labour doing differently under Shearer that is any different from what it did under Goff?

    National 48% on average between Colmar Brunton and Reid Polls.
    Labour 33%.
    No change.
    Since 2008.

    • Te Reo Putake 3.1

      Your fundamental mistake is believing that CB and Reid reflect reality. They don’t, they reflect Tory wishful thinking (and in the last two elections, wish fulfilment). Labour and the Greens will be the next Government.

      • Boadicea 3.1.1

        Tedium: TRP saying the same thing over and over again and hoping the polls are wrong.

        • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1.1

          It’s not hope, it’s fact. Reid and CB always overestimate the right and minimise the left. The intention is to convince voters that elections are a ‘done deal’ so they don’t threaten the status quo. Sorry to see you buying in to it. The only poll that is even close to correct is the Roy Morgan and in recent months that has shown that a change is coming. Over to you now. Are part of the movement for change or are you just concern trolling?

          • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1.1

            “The intention is to convince voters that elections are a ‘done deal’ so they don’t threaten the status quo. ”

            Hmm, I don’t really think so. You’re basically saying that these media outlets go out of their way to commission a dodgy poll. I don’t think they do.

            Also, the latest Roy Morgan is in line with the current results from Reid and CB, yet was taken before the budget.

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Hmm, I don’t really think so. You’re basically saying that these media outlets go out of their way to commission a dodgy poll. I don’t think they do.

              It doesn’t have to be blatant or outlandish manipulation. Anything from wording of the questions, to time of day calls are made, to areas called, will skew poll results. Also changing criteria for which responses might be kept and which might be discarded.

              Notice how none of these polling companies release a detailed methodology of how each poll was actually conducted.

              • Elizabeth Bourchier

                CV & Co,
                Forget the semantics.
                Stop the nit picking who/how of Pollsters.
                Labour is doing no better under Shearer and Robertson that they did under Goff and King.
                Labour cannot get over 33% with the current leadership coterie.
                Many gigs people in the party are working hard on the policy and organisation change plans.
                The public, the active voters and the lapsed voters will “like” some of our policies but never vote for Labour or vote at all al long as the leadership is seen to be playing a safe centrist “beltway” strategy rather than being strong gutsy leaders of the PAYE worker, the Maori, the Islanders, the new immigrants, the alienated and dispossed and the environmentalists.

          • Boadicea 3.1.1.1.2

            http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll/new-zealand/voting-intention-summary

            You naughty Roman TRP, the Roy Morgan figures show how National has been consistently on 44-47% while Labour has been between 30% and 33%.

            You seem to take a Cosby-Textor approach to reiterating a false statememt hoping it will become an accepted “fact”.

            Naughty boy.

      • Rhinocrates 3.1.2

        Solipsism: do not adjust your perception, reality is at fault.

      • bad12 3.1.3

        Reid polling in particular gives all the impression of simply reflecting the wishes of the National party acolyte that owns that particular polling organization,

        National will have the numbers to govern alone is the ongoing constant message from Reid, the underlying ‘massage’ being that for those not wanting a National Party Government it’s a waste of time turning up at the polling booths on election day,

        How well such ‘messaging’ works in the minds of those subjected to such ‘conditioning’ via their televisions is a matter of opinion,

        I would this far out from November 2014 dare suggest that National’s chances of a third term of Government will be reliant upon the whim of NZFirst who themselves are hardly guaranteed 5% of the vote in 2014…

        • McFlock 3.1.3.1

          Pretty much – like their graph of poll results.
          All through 2010/2011Reid put National at well above 50%. But for me the indicator of intentional bias is the chart itself – stops in feb 2013 as nats raise just above 50% on a slow decline since the election.

          The last couple of results have been below 50%, haven’t they? Yet the chart on their website looks like they’re on an upswing. And the page has been like that for a while.

    • Jimmie 3.2

      Lots of things different.

      Shearer is lurching to the left to appease party activists (and keep his position) and is trying out a political civil union with a red headed Aussie.

      The net effect of this you have Labour, Greens, Mana dancing around in the far left corner chasing the same votes.

      This leaves the soft left and center voters drifting back into the Nats camp and keeping the Nats consistently high in the polls.

      If Shearer wants to head further left that is fine. It is the same sex marriage with Norman that is killing Labour – every fruit loop pronouncement by Norman and Turei is seen as being automatically endorsed by Shearer.

      This is scary for voters who are looking for economic stability and growth not a lurch to the luddite left.

      Clark didn’t keep the Greens in a far and distant corner for no reason.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.2.1

        Careful. When the “far Left” win the election and the sky fails to fall on our heads, and in fact people start to prosper more (you must have heard that Labour-led governments always make a better job of the economy, according to the facts that is – debt down productivity up etc etc), they’ll start to say to themselves “this far Left business isn’t the hell Jimmie said it would be”.

        And bang! Your bubble bursts and it’s empty. 😀

        • Jimmie 3.2.1.1

          The same sentiments were made prior to 2008 & 2011 – didn’t affect the outcome.

          2014 looks to be heading the same way as the left can’t acknowledge that their policies are irrelevant to the current world economic climate.

          Voters will vote for parties that cut their cloth to economic reality – not a harking back to a perceived golden yester year or uncontrollable social spending.

          This is what is shown in the polls and Shearer would be better off to present an alternative policy platform that reflects this.

          The GFC was to political economics what 9-11 was to the military – terrorist outlook, a game changer that needs to be factored in by political parties.

          • Suitably Clueless 3.2.1.1.1

            Aaah the right, constantly trying to make the GFC into a war type conflict, if that is the case, where are the war criminals that allowed it to happen?

          • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.2.1.1.2

            No, Jimmie. You don’t get to change the reasons people vote one way or another. People (for the most part) vote for the party they feel will leave them better off. That’s why NZPower is such a vote winner: it will leave the vast majority better off – and the boost to the economy will even lift dullards like you.

            Oh, and reality check, Labour = lower public debt, so blithering about “cutting the cloth” or whatever witless excuse for austerity you’re pushing this week won’t help you.

            National are shit economic managers and the lying Prime Minister is dead meat.

          • McFlock 3.2.1.1.3

            2008?

            I think your mind is playing tricks on you.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.4

            The GFC was proof positive that mainstream economists have HFI WTF they’re talking about. Hell, the idiots couldn’t even predict excessive debt while it was happening in front of their eyes.

          • millsy 3.2.1.1.5

            Can you how spending more money on health, and keeping hospitals open is uncontrollable social spending?

            What hospitals do you want to close?

            Would you close hospitals to cut taxes?

            What do you think of the US health system?

      • Bill 3.2.2

        The ‘far left’, as you label the politics you fear, doesn’t ‘do’ parliamentary politics Jimmie. And last time I looked, the Greens, Labour and Mana were all making a tilt at being parliamentary representatives.

      • bad12 3.2.3

        You are amusing, ”economic stability and growth”???, you mean the game of smoke and mirrors that the Member from Dipton is currently playing with the Government accounts is economic security,????, borrowing billions of dollars of monies in fiscal year 2011/2012 which will be spent into 2015/1016 is your view of ‘economic stability’,???

        The only growth in the system is brought about by the earthquake recovery and the ongoing Auckland housing inflation which despite all the Member from Dipton’s weasel words is set to continue unabated and the blind among us have their heads buried in the sand over this National Governments ‘growth’ of an 80 odd billion dollar debt mountain…

      • Draco T Bastard 3.2.4

        … not a lurch to the luddite left.

        LOL

        All the changes that we’ve seen has come from the left. The conservatives want what was in the past.

        It’s not the political-left that are the Luddites, it’s the political-right.

        • ghostrider888 3.2.4.1

          yes, that is what ‘conservatism’ is about. Lord, we need new stripped nuts!

  4. tc 4

    Spot on, its all about keeping people out of the booths in 2014, a tactic that allowed them a very narrow victory in 2011 using a cup of tea and plenty of consistent MSM themes run by granny, tvnz and joyces former employ mediawonks radio live and tv3.

  5. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5

    Time to question the up-until-now unquestioned assumption that nationalising the power is electoral gold?

    http://www.reidresearch.co.nz/TV3+POLL+RESULTS.html

    • Gormless you missed the results when that specific question was asked.

      According to Paddy Gower when asked “Do you support the Labour/Greens policy to reform the power market?” a clear majority, 54 percent, said yes. Thirty-nine percent said no. The rest didn’t know.

      http://www.3news.co.nz/Poll-Labour-Greens-close-gap-on-National/tabid/1607/articleID/299191/Default.aspx#ixzz2UQssagj6

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5.1.1

        Well, it won’t matter if they never get elected.

        • weka 5.1.1.1

          But it will if they do. What is your point exactly?

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5.1.1.1.1

            My point, exactly, is that people do not like Labour and, therefore, will not vote for them.

            • Clockie 5.1.1.1.1.1

              I see you’ve ignored the result I’ve referenced below that nearly a third of National supporters think NZ power is a good idea.

              • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                But what does that matter, Clockie if, as a result, this will not induce them to vote for the Labour Party?

                • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                  You’re absolutely right. The Left will implement the policy only after winning the election.

                • Clockie

                  Early days. See how it plays out. Getting all excited or despondent about polls in the middle of an electoral cycle is a fools game. But you asked a rhetorical question above: “Time to question the up-until-now unquestioned assumption that nationalising the power is electoral gold? “, in reply to which I pointed out that nearly a third of Nationals own supporters thought that, actually, NZ Power is electoral gold..

                • Clockie

                  Oh and by the way Gormless I left a reply on OM26/5 re your comment about Act and Mana.

                  Open mike 26/05/2013

            • weka 5.1.1.1.1.2

              “My point, exactly, is that people do not like Labour and, therefore, will not vote for them.”

              And some people do like Labour, and do vote for them. What was your point again?

      • Jimmie 5.1.2

        So isn’t that a damnation on Shearer that voters still prefer National despite supporting Shearer’s flagship policy?

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.1.2.1

          Seen the Pundit poll of polls? Familiar with the concept of a “trend”?

          Keep up the smug confidence Toryboys, but get ready to spend election night sobbing in a corner.

    • Clockie 5.2

      Here is a lift from Gowers commentary on the poll you reference.

      Asked “Do you support the Labour/Greens policy to reform the power market?” a clear majority, 54 percent, said yes. Thirty-nine percent said no. The rest didn’t know.
      But out of National voters, 29 percent said yes, supporting the Opposition’s policy.

  6. vto 7

    So with these silly house value increases that are going on……

    where has all the extra money come from to pay for this?

    … let’s say 500,000 houses in Auckland alone, average value $500,000, equals $250,000,000,000 (that’s $250billion). And let’s say they have increased 10% in value = $2.5billion.

    Where has that $2.5 billion come from?

    • vto 7.1

      oops, me numbers are a bit up the buhai…

      10% increase in value equals $25 billion (not 2.5). Let’s say 10% of houses sell each year. That equals $2.5 billion extra – where has all of that come from?

      • Colonial Viper 7.1.1

        It’s mostly all mortgage debt created money. The amount of money released into the community is the same as the debt generated in the same instant. Of course, that debt starts accumulating interest immediately…basically we have a monetary system that our economy can never keep up with, and which we have to continuously grow just to keep still.

        • vto 7.1.1.1

          Yep. The world’s largest ponzi scheme.

          If it is unsustainable, which it is, then where and when will it all end? And what happens to our savings? And what happens to our assets?

          And why do our politicians never ever address this fatal flaw in our system, driving itself straight off the cliff?

          • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.1.1

            Just keep kicking that can down the road…with more money printing, bail outs, austerity for the poor, monetizing of debt, raising debt ceilings, treating debt as collateral you can loan more against, etc

      • MrSmith 7.1.2

        The banks simply print it then lend it to you, as they hold an asset against it, your house is collateral.

        Of-course they can only now lend out 5 times the money they have on deposit, so they must attract deposits, increasing the amount of money in circulation will work as people will cash up assets and put money in the bank later in life, around and around it goes, what a scam.

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1

          Of-course they can only now lend out 5 times the money they have on deposit, so they must attract deposits

          Almost…my understanding is that they can lend as much as they want NOW, but have to go out and find the reserves required by regulations to sustain that lending within a month or two.

          Hence occasionally you get the banks putting up posters saying Limited time only 90 days term deposits special rates!!! Because they are meeting some short term reserves shortfall.

          • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2.1.1

            The Reserve Bank is the lender of Last Resort.

            What this means in practical terms is that if the private banks are short then the reserves are made up by the RB. That’s what the Overnight Rate (OCR) is all about. The banks will never be short on reserves ergo there is no limit to their lending.

  7. Because anything with QE2 in it is suspect:

  8. captain hook 9

    So national party fixer Simon Lusk in yestrerdays SST has only just discovered the sort of people he is dealing with.
    Lowbrow atavistic thugs. People with no ethcis, morals, principles or scruples.
    Nobodies with money who want to be somebody.
    People who need money to beat up on others.
    They would prefer it if the law allowed them free reign with no comebacks but fortunately we live in a society governed by the rule of law.
    Lusks cronies whaleoil and feeder hav self evident personality disorders such as avarice, gluttony and projecting their own foul desires on to others.
    Its time to get shot of them and their party and the sooner the better.

  9. Colonial Viper 10

    UK “6 hours of gas left in the country” shortage was artificial: corporates held back gas inventories and let prices double

    Who would’ve thought eh.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/may/24/energy-suppliers-held-back-gas-uk

    • vto 10.1

      No, surely not.

      The free market is always self-correcting and equilibrialising. Isn’t it?

      Or is this yet another example of free market deregulation religious orthodoxy being completely blown apart?

      Like Pike River, dairy farming, the NZX, housing, leaky housing, financial system, … what else is left?

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1

        It’s capitalism producing monopolies and oligopolies and cartels that remove power from the people and put it in private hands.

  10. Draco T Bastard 11

    More proof that Labour is right-wing:

    Labour leader David Shearer said providing breakfast to children was ultimately a parent’s responsibility and any programme must be targeted.

    Pretty sure I’ve heard similar from National and National supporters as well, definitely heard it from Dunne.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      FFS. Basically it’s Labour and National in lockstep. Same perspective, same framing, same assumptions.

    • prism 11.2

      Put dear DS up on a roof with a paintbrush and let him find out what real work is about. And make it a beneficiaries house he is painting but first clean the rust and old paint off by hand and brush, not high pressure water, and then he will have personally done some real good work in this world. The UN stuff was mainly for m-t-a (more than adequate) pay.

    • TheContrarian 11.3

      I think there is something wrong with your brain, Draco.

      Thinking that the first place, the first opportunity, for children to be feed is at home during breakfast time is a right-wing position? Wow.

      • felix 11.3.1

        I agree.

        Or at least I would if your comment bore any relation whatsoever to what Draco quoted.

    • Dear David Shearer

      You should have said “there may be dead beat parents out there but FFS we are talking about 5 and 6 year old kids. We owe it to them to make sure they have enough food to at least be able to get an education at school. And if they are not being fed at home then we will get their home situation checked out. But how could you refuse to feed a 6 year old kid? What have they done to deserve this?”

      Triangulating on bigots will not work Labour.

      • Colonial Viper 11.4.1

        Must…convert…National voters…must…

        On a more serious note, as lprent has alluded to…every soft Nat voter you gain this way, you’ll get a hardcore Labour voter stay at home or go to Greens/Mana.

        It’s the leaking sieve strategy of electoral math.

      • ratesarerevolting 11.4.2

        Len Brown is a fucking cunt !

        [lprent: make a point to explain the abuse. Otherwise I tend to start making a moderators point about pointless abuse. ]

  11. Anne 12

    Credit where credit is due:

    Listening to RNZ radio political spot this morning. Matthew Hooton expounded, clearly and succinctly, the concerns expressed by many here re-the new GCSB legislation. He is now on record calling for an independent investigation as per that requested by Labour and the Greens.

  12. vto 13

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8719374/Couples-800-debt-spirals-into-70-000

    Money lenders are exactly like drug dealers – get people hooked and when they can’t keep up move in and take all their shit.

  13. karol 14

    What has happened to RNZ’s website?

    Looking more like an MSM website…. curious.

    • ghostrider888 14.1

      ‘choo not pleased with the ‘new look’ karol?

      • karol 14.1.1

        I’m pleased with the access to content. The bright colours are a bit hard on my eyes – a bit tacky looking on my monitor.

    • Lanthanide 14.2

      I found their old website hard to navigate and confusing, and I’m a long-time netizen. I guess there’s a reason MSM websites look the way they do – because it’s functional.

      • karol 14.2.1

        Yes. The navigation has improved on the new look site. I also like their bit on transparency about audience research.

        • weka 14.2.1.1

          hmmm, I think it’s less accessible, but maybe I was just used to the old site. To get to today’s Nine to Noon audio takes how many clicks? And having to manualy search through a whole page of programmes A to Z is pretty daft.

          Why are they not using drop down menus?

          Their search engine still sucks majorly.

          Don’t mind the actual look though 🙂

          • Lanthanide 14.2.1.1.1

            Drop down menus (especially hover-over ones) suck for touch-based devices.

            • weka 14.2.1.1.1.1

              Do you mean the drop down is not user friendly, or that they get in the way (so you can’t just ignore them)?

              I thought ipads, phones etc accessed different versions of websites.

              • Lanthanide

                “I thought ipads, phones etc accessed different versions of websites.”

                Only if the website designer has specifically made alternative versions of their websites (many cut-down ‘automatic’ mobile sites are terrible and people prefer to use the full site). This can add quite a bit of expense. It’s easier just to design a site that is mobile-friendly up-front and then not have the added expense of having to make a whole different one for mobile.

                • lprent

                  This site works fine on a iPad and my nexus7 in normal mode. But it is bloody difficult to make it work on any phone smaller than those oversized samsungs. I think that currently for anything with high text content, you do need a two modes.

            • lprent 14.2.1.1.1.2

              Yeah. Drop down menu are kind of dead in a touch based world. I get irritated with the ones in the back end of WordPress.

              • weka

                But does that mean you can just ignore them? Or do they get in the way?

                • Lanthanide

                  If the site is designed so that you *must* use the drop-down menus to do anything, then it basically becomes unusable with a touch-screen device.

                  If the drop-down menus simply speed things up, then if you can’t use them, you must logically do things the ‘slow way’ instead – which is irritating.

          • lprent 14.2.1.1.2

            They should use sphinx search. That really works well for search…

    • Tim 14.3

      ‘Re-imaging’.
      Nothing wrong with the old format – actually I preferred it. And the redevelopment was necessary (not) at a time when they’re tight on funds.
      Sometimes I wonder who is running the place these days.

  14. Once again the polls have shown, that parties that move to far from the centre will lose every election, labour and the greens are digging their own grave by playing the type of politics that they have over the past few months.

    National must be grinning ear to ear.

    • McFlock 15.1

      you wish.

    • weka 15.2

      “Once again the polls have shown, that parties that move to far from the centre will lose every election,”

      How do you explain the current government then?

      • Brett Dale 15.2.1

        This is the most centred National government there has been in my life time. Labour and the greens are moving more to the left every day. They are making the same mistake the gop did in the usa election, trying to appeal to the extremists.

        They should leave all extremist crap to united and act and TeMana.

        • Morrissey 15.2.1.1

          This is the most centred National government there has been in my life time.

          IDIOT.

          • Colonial Viper 15.2.1.1.1

            The guys an emotional infant, so maybe he’s speaking the truth.

    • Naturesong 15.3

      Once again the polls have shown, that parties that move to far from the centre will lose every election, national are digging their own grave by playing the type of politics that they have over the past few months.

      Labour and the greens are grinning ear to ear.

      FIFY

    • Morrissey 15.4

      Why do I get the feeling, on every single Brett Dale post, that he knows nothing about ANYTHING?

  15. ghostrider888 16

    “pay rates rising slower than a year ago, job growth still down” etc etc
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8722531/Wages-up-job-down-growth-still-down

  16. McFlock 17

    THE NEXT CANDIDATE for King Johnkey’s “Fuck you, I do what I want” dictatorial legislation?

    Can they resist the urge to simply validate unlawful Legal Aid practises with a “nga nga nga can’t take me to court” act under urgency? Is anyone dumb enough to take bets on that?

  17. North 18

    TV3 poll shows that 66% of National supporters are in favour of the Mana Movement precipitated Food for Kids programme the government is introducing, ShonKey Python cares to deny that Cabinet was split over the move. But good on that 66%.

    34% of National Party supporters are OPPOSED ON PRINCIPLE.

    Shonkey Python – “I can understand………that point of view” – or words to that effect.

    Say that again – opposed to feeding starving kids – ON PRINCIPLE !

    Karma, karma, karma, please, please, please deal to those bastards and their FUCKING PRINCIPLES in the cruellest fashion !

    I wonder how many of the 34% delight in turning up at church on Sunday for their weekly wank ?

    • ghostrider888 18.1

      Overall, 74% say yes to Breakfast in Schools.

      meanwhile, we have a massive crisis with suicide rates, youth suicide rate highest in the developed world.- Peter Dunne.

      and, with the dollar climbing against the Aussie, our export sector relatively weak (Ganesh Nana) and interest rates on the rise to 7%…

      they better be on their knees.

      as OAK reminds us, “careful what you wish for”. 😎

    • marty mars 18.2

      Yes North I agree – they have principles all right the bastards – the principle of moaning when something affects them otherwise everyone else can just fuck off.

  18. North 19

    In short, fuckwits, hardheads, no brains, “done well” white trash, scum really notwithstanding their ludicrous pretensions to style and class.

    I so well recall a glowing sense of satisfaction, a sense that it was all so poetic, a sense that it was so just, when the Ceaucescus got theirs.

    And this 34% are the societal apes who mouth cruelly against beneficiaries, denying this “underclass” human status. History has their travel well mapped.

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