Open mike 27/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:52 am, June 27th, 2014 - 348 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

348 comments on “Open mike 27/06/2014”

  1. Tiger Mountain 1

    Cry me a river/injured innocence dept:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11282539

    “We regret having reported inflated and conflated dollar figures.”

    • Colonial Viper 1.1

      Firstly. The NZ Herald screwed up in terms of basic journalism i.e. to “report” a story is to have fact checked its basis and your sources before running the story. The Herald didn’t do that, and its clear that just 3 months before a General Election the paper should have been more thorough than ever.

      Secondly, its attempt in this rather terse and strained editorial to equate the seriousness of what Maurice Williamson did or the interference in our political system perpetrated by the Exclusive Brethren, to Cunliffe forgetting an old form letter, etc. is as ludicrous as trying to pass chalk off as cheese.

      Bias is the claim, and bias is the appearance.

      • ianmac 1.1.1

        The Herald could claim that they were just reporting on a statement received.
        I have written to the Herald asking if they would print a statement I could write claiming bad stuff about John Key. Would they print it before close checking or just go ahead and print it? What if I supplied a photo of John Key frowning? Would the reprint the content of the statement in spite of JK’s denial?
        Doubt it.
        Lprent has a great post up summing up the whole shambles.

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

          The Herald could claim that they were just reporting on a statement received.

          Nope, that is neither reporting a story* nor is it journalism. Either would require fact checking of assertions and context, it would require independent assessment of multiple sources, it would have required giving Cunliffe 24 hrs to comment and reply. It would have required actual basic leg work and integrity to identify and convey the truth to the public, in other words.

          Instead, what the Herald played at was “gotcha” style ambush-oriented tabloid gossip.

          *Where reportING is the activity of a professional reportOR i.e. journalist or news correspondent around checking and relaying the truth of a matter. Not acting as a gossip columnist.

          The fact that these concepts seem so odd now is that neither our TV news or our print news does much actual journalistic “reporting” nowadays, instead preferring to relay tabloid style “he said/she said/he agreed/she disagreed” gossip-mongering.

    • Grumpy 1.2

      [deleted]

      [lprent: I see you haven’t responded to my note on http://thestandard.org.nz/reverse-ferret-bites-pm-on-arse/#comment-838047. Bad idea. Banned 3 months. ]

      [lprent: Apologies. OAB pointed to the comment that I missed. Ban rescinded. ]

      • Colonial Viper 1.2.1

        oh fuck off grumpy you want close to home, someone get Pansy Wong Jenny Shipley and Judith Collins here.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.2

        In Grumpy’s defence:

        “lprent is correct, my memory was clearly deficient.”

        [lprent: Ok I missed that. Rescinding ban. I was bit grumpy this morning after reading the Herald’s editorial. ]

        • Pasupial 1.2.2.1

          As much as I despise Grumpy; OAB defense is accurate, and LPrent’s ban might have been inappropriate in this instance. I don’t mind him being banned, but it should be for what he says rather than merely being an incompetent and incoherent commenter.

          Of course, he could have returned to his old trick of passing of unsubstantiated conjecture as fact in the deleted comment above; which is what he was warned about. If so, then his previous admission of fault doesn’t amount to much.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.2.1.1

            If it please m’Lud, Grumpy’s ban was for an alleged failure to respond. If further charges are pending may we see the evidence? 😈

            • lprent 1.2.2.1.1.1

              It was. He dropped off the site for a few days after I asked it. But as people are aware if I ask a question as moderator, especially about an assertion of fact, then I expect to get a reply.

              Just at present my default action is to give anyone I have to ban, a 3 month ban. That is because my moderating workload goes up dramatically prior to an election, and I prefer to remove problem commenters while the workload is high.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Please see my comment at 1.2.2

                ‘In Grumpy’s defence:

                “lprent is correct, my memory was clearly deficient.”’

      • vto 1.2.3

        dang, I always quite like mr grumpy. What did he say?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.3.1

          Check above the comment I linked to.

        • thecard 1.2.3.2

          I believe it was in relation to this piece at Kiwiblog with a statement from Stephen Ching in relation to the ongoing Liu saga.

          http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/06/ching_says_now_me.html

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.3.2.1

            Liu, the National Party donor with a limited understanding of what constitutes “The Labour Party”?

            • thecard 1.2.3.2.1.1

              Liu the National and Labour party donor whose donations to each of those parties haven’t been worth the angst they have caused.

              Still surprised we haven’t seen more of Winston during this ongoing saga – thought it would be mana from Heaven for him leading into an election.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                No. Desperation over Maurice and Judith and John and Cabinet Club caused the angst.

                The knowledge of what happens when you put Steven Joyce up against David Parker caused the angst.

                Running away from legitimate questions like whiny cry-babies caused the angst.

                • thecard

                  Wow that Labour kool aid is good stuff !

                  More potent than Winston’s smile and latest hair style at a Grey Power meeting !

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    😆

                    I’m a Green voter.

                    • thecard

                      But shilling for Labour……….. #Heyclint is that you ?

                      [lprent: No it isn’t. And as an advisory. Fishing for peoples identities is a really bad idea around here. ]

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Is that what ‘shilling’ means to you: challenging your false assertion that Liu is the source of this angst, as opposed to the low types you’re cheerleading for?

                      That’s part of the smear: throw Liu under a bus because we don’t want the lying Prime Minister to look vicious as well as deceitful.

                      The market is flooded with unused personal responsibility.

                    • thecard

                      oh I don’t think it’s the Nats throwing Liu under the bus maybe some ankle tapping after Labour propelled towards the wheels though.

                      And you don’t think Lui is a source of angst to both National and Labour ?

                      I think you’d better consult a thesaurus ASAP.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The sources of National’s angst are things National have done. The sources of Labour angst likewise.

                      Liu is reponsible for Liu. National is responsible for National. Labour is responsible for Labour.

                      Why does someone (like yourself) with a vaunted philosophical commitment to personal responsibility have to have that spelled out for them?

                      Desperation? Stupidity? Ignorance? Dishonesty?

                      Has to be one of those.

        • grumpy 1.2.3.3

          ….not much, I like you too vto – but you were better before Stockholm syndrome took hold.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.4

        Saving Grumpy somehow lacks that winning feeling.

      • grumpy 1.2.5

        Thought you must have seen it when you removed me from moderation…….

  2. chris73 2

    Well things just got worse for the left:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10205192/Key-wants-to-stick-around-for-fourth-term

    Don’t worry though I reckon he only wants three terms

    • Pasupial 2.1

      Christie

      John Key has moved to silence speculation he could quit in his third term if National looked like losing, after admitting he considered stepping down when things got tough in 2012.

      He will be gone when the right block loses in September, and things get tough for him again. But even if he does scrape together enough MPs to cobble together a coalition (including Labour defectors, with maybe Mallard as speaker); why would anyone take him at his word (refer to BliP list)?

      • Kiwiri 2.1.1

        “He will be gone when the right block loses in September, and things get tough for him again.”

        Drum it into progressive voters and those who did not vote last time/are giving up voting that John Key is presenting the country with an opportunity to throw him out.

        v.t. lying b.o.

      • McFlock 2.1.2

        the funny thing is that a while back some folks here were saying key looked disinterested and obviously bored with the job, and tories responded by saying it was wishful thinking.

        And yet, in his bio-suck-advertisement, apparently he did consider quitting. And only hangs about because he doesn’t like to quit. So nah, he doesn’t even really want the job.

    • karol 2.2

      And by the end of that term, NZ will truly be a 3rd world country – with a wealthy comprador class, and a big bunch of the poor, the disenfranchised, and those who have given up all hope of a liveable life.

      Glad you find that something to hope for and prematurely celebrate.

      • chris73 2.2.1

        [deleted]

        [lprent: I see that you are continuing to astroturf. And I’m before my first coffee and feeling intolerant after reading the herald ‘editorial’. How unfortunate for you. Banned 3 months. Bye – see you after the election. ]

        • karol 2.2.1.1

          Nats lead the negative campaigning with support of Herald.

        • Will@Welly 2.2.1.2

          Wow. The day just gets better. I am just picking myself off the floor, after laughing my head off – first grumpy, now chris.

        • Chooky 2.2.1.3

          lol…bye …see you after the election with Labour running the country in coalition…look forward to hearing what you have to say then!

      • Wreckingball 2.2.2

        Have you seen the polls? There is no hope for Labour. National are running away with it.

        New Zealand will not be a third world country, I don’t know where you get that idea from. New Zealand is going well, the economy is booming.

        [lprent: you are astroturfing. If I see a comment again like that that displays no intelligence and instead display slogans, I will ban you until after the election. This is your warning. ]

        • millsy 2.2.2.1

          Not for those in the shithole camping ground in Ranui..

        • Wreckingball 2.2.2.2

          You can’t consider my comment (that NZ will not be a third world country after another national term and that the economy is going well) as astroturfing when you let people say – “NZ will truly be a 3rd world country – with a wealthy comprador class, and a big bunch of the poor, the disenfranchised, and those who have given up all hope of a liveable life.”

          I don’t think that statement is true so I replied with my opinion..

          [lprent: If that was a considered opinion, then I’d have to ask how shallowly you think. It looked like a couple of unthought out slogans bashed together. I look for people writing slogans in comments because I call them “trolls”. I’d suggest that if you want to use them, then add some intelligence to them.

          Incidentally: If the economy is “booming” then why isn’t unemployment going down. The reality is that construction in ChCh is booming. Dairy exports have been booming. The rest of the economy is not booming and so jobs aren’t being created. ]

          • nadis 2.2.2.2.1

            lprent – I think you need to check the figures.

            Here’s what I see:

            Unemployment Rate 6.0% lowest since Q4 2008
            Employment Rate 65.1% highest since Q4 2008
            Participation Rate 69.3% highest since at least 1999 (it did touch 69.2% in q4 2008 but that was a one off, the average since 2007 has been 68.4%

            And just to help with definitions:

            unemployment rate is #unemployed/#labour force
            employment rate is #employed/# working age population
            participation rate is (#employed+#unemployed)/#working age population.

            When all three of those stats are trending in a positive manner I think it is a disingenuous to say that the employment situation is not improving.

            http://www.stats.govt.nz/~/media/Statistics/Browse%20for%20stats/HouseholdLabourForceSurvey/HOTPMar14qtr/HouseholdLabourForceSurveyMar14qtrHOTP.pdf

            Can you please explain more carefully “why isn’t unemployment going down” (when it is) and “jobs aren’t be created” (when they are)?

            • lprent 2.2.2.2.1.1

              I tell you what,

              a. Change the reference date to 2004. A decade ago prior to the GFC and the excessive exuberance preceding it.
              b. Use the household survey for people un-employed and under-employed rather than the number of people on benefits.
              c. Run it in units of fulltime jobs.

              Basically what you have demonstrated it is that it is easily possible to easily lie with numbers.

              Even you can do it.

      • thecard 2.2.3

        Gosh Karol if that’s a considered opinion, then I’d have to ask how shallowly you think.

        It looks like a couple of unthought out slogans bashed together.

        Assuming National lead the next government not much will change we certainly won’t be anywhere near a third world country as we’ll still have a very sizeable safety net and publicly funded health and education and a myriad of other services. Agreed not much will change for those at the top or bottom of the heap but in my experience that’s the case regardless of whether National or Labour are running the show.

        • Lanthanide 2.2.3.1

          +1

        • karol 2.2.3.2

          And this is deep thinking?

          we’ll still have a very sizeable safety net and publicly funded health and education and a myriad of other services.

          Such services being continually cut back under Key’s watch.

          “Third world” is a term that doesn’t have a clear cut definition.

          I used it to denote NZ’s position as subservient to more powerful countries, with a ruling elite supporting those countries, and marked inequalities within NZ.

          To me, people living in garages, camp sites, and on the streets is not what I expect of a country with a “rockstar economy”. It is more like a third world within an (allegedly) developed country. Actually NZ is generally inbetween being having a fully “developed” economy and an “underdeveloped” one. NZ has a strong primary sector, and less strong secondary and tertiary sectors. That is something often found in so-called “third world” countries.

          The wages for the working poor are not livable, without some extra support from charities or state funding.

          That is not what I would expect of a “developed” country.

          Edit: actually, I recall hearing a lecture a few years back about how NZ’s economy is somewhere in between a third and first world economy. Compared with a first world economy, NZ had a weak tertiary sector and an inflated tertiary (service) sector.

          With the way Key’s government is skewing and entrenching inequalities, cutting back on the public sector and failing to strengthen the manufacturing sector, I would expect NZ to move further towards being like a third world country.

    • Once was Tim 2.3

      Key only wants 4 terms to outdo Helen – part of his competitive nature. Besides, he’s got to wait around long enough to get a “Sir” in front of his name – as in Ssssjonkey. Aside from which he’s come to like that prostate tickling from the likes of Joyce, Jamie Lee-Ross, and Pants on Fire. (Going Forwid)

  3. pictures on telly of the launch of roughans’ hagiography on key..

    ..and in the background/audience..

    ..a cavalcade of ‘the looters’..

    ..yoo-hoo..!..shipley..!

  4. riffer 4

    So… got a response from Tim Murphy. I’m going to publish this on the assumption that, despite what his email signature says, he has nothing to hide.

    Dear Simon
    Thank you for your letter which is similar to some others we have received quoting the unsourced Journalism Code of Ethics.
    Your complaint might not have taken into account the nzherald.co.nz story published from midday on Wednesday June 25 which outlined Donghua Liu’s correction of his previous statement reported on June 22. This was run prominently and immediately to provide the latest and fullest facts on this matter. The story remains on the site and was also published in our print edition today. The Herald on Sunday will publish a clarification of Liu’s claims in its edition this weekend.
    We have no interest in advancing any political party – and our reporting since March of donations to National from Donghua Liu before his citizenship was approved, the involvement of National minister Maurice Williamson in the Liu domestic violence case, and Labour’s donations from Liu, David Cunliffe’s hurry-up letter for his permanent residency, and MP Rick Barker’s close associations shows we are being rigorously exacting of all political hues.
    Yours sincerely
    Tim Murphy
    Editor-in-chief, Herald titles

    So, what happened to journalistic ethics eh? That deserves another question:

    Hi Tim,

    thanks for your email. I am surprised you are unaware of the Journalism Code of Ethics, although perhaps the Herald journalists do not have the union affiliation they used to. The Code of Ethics was developed by EPMU members, which many journalists used to belong to. Perhaps with the decline of union membership in your paper there has been a corresponding decline in journalistic ethics and standards also.

    Can you confirm that The Herald no longer supports the Journalism Code of Ethics, as developed by journalists in conjunction with their union, or could you please direct me to the new list of ethical standards that have overtaken the original ones?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      Dear Mr. Murphy,

      How does telling the truth about the National Party justify telling lies about the Labour Party?

    • Ant 4.2

      My god, they still can’t admit they have no proof of Liu donating to Labour and run his claims as facts.

      • Once was Tim 4.2.1

        And what’s amusing about these hacks is that they’re the first to advise politicians who fuck up – to just fess up and apologise. Masters of the double standard.
        PLEASE Tim (and Jared – who appears to be in charge of the wheel barrow dumping the dirt) – keep digging that hole

      • Once was Tim 4.2.2

        And what’s amusing about these hacks is that they’re the first to advise politicians who fuck up – to just fess up and apologise. Masters of the double standard.
        PLEASE Tim (and Jared – who appears to be in charge of the wheel barrow dumping the dirt) – keep digging that hole

    • bad12 4.3

      The Herald online has an editorial on this subject today, More Songs About Absolute Bullshit should be its title,

      Now the Herald claims have been deflated to Liu having donated to Labour $38,000, and, the Editor just cannot seem to grasp the point,

      These are unfounded/unproven allegations and, in my opinion, everytime the Herald publishes such allegations as fact without adding the disclaimer that these are unproven allegations from Liu that sordid rag is in fact defaming the Labour Party,

      Relying upon ”a statement” from Liu as ”fact” cannot in my opinion protect the Herald from such charges of defamation as the changing nature of Liu’s claims removes from the Herald any defence of ”honest opinion”

      The Herald editor need answer to the question of where is a shred of ”proof” from Liu that any such donations were actually given, as has been repeatedly pointed out here anyone can make such a claim,

      The sooner this Whore Voice of International Capital hides itself away behind a paywall will be in my opinion all the better and simply ensure that the scum that publish this rag are one large step closer to having it collapse in on its debt laden pile of bullshit of its own making…

    • Bearded Git 4.4

      “Hurry up letter” from Cunliffe. What bollocks. Polite enquiry maybe.

  5. karol 5

    Time for a broad left, massive demo outside the Herald office, as a show of strength of all the positive things the left has to offer.

    • Pasupial 6.1

      LOL

      Utter rubbish but may get you out of a jam if you run out of toilet paper.

      Proceeds from sale go to fighting poverty.

    • bad12 6.2

      Lolz, beaten to it, i have been waiting for the bloke from the DomPost to come around again whoring for subscriptions to that particular piece of trash,

      Last time, after having given our Street a freebie for a week, sort of like training the dogs, His arrival was treated with great humor here at the Mansion as i gleefully pointed out that i didn’t need a hard copy newspaper as i had the Herald online up on the screen,

      If the bloke had a skirt on i am pretty sure the ”flounce” of it as He departed would have created enough wind to blow me outta the chair,

      My plan for His next visit is to tell Him to print the thing on toilet paper grade newsprint and i will happily buy it…

      • amirite 6.2.1

        Unfortunately, the quality of the Herald is such that if it was a toilet paper your finger would go right through it when used.

      • Once was Tim 6.2.2

        Eastern Subs @ bad12? My ex wife had to suffer a similar visit.
        His approach was somewhat mormon-like in manner apparently. Poor bastard! I hope he’s not on sole commission based on sales (shit – uphill – push). Actually I’d put my money on Mormons having greater success than I would Herald salespersonages.

        BTW (anyone) – this Tim fella – is he the same Tim that was producer of “The Vote”? under the aegis of 3’s 3rd Degree?
        It’d fit I guess if so.

        • bad12 6.2.2.1

          Yep Tim, you have the ‘burb’ right, i had the sneaking suspicion that this particular head was actually from the DomPost itself,

          He didn’t smack of the usual desperation that i sense from the likes of those who arrive at the Mansion touting for power or phone companies,

          Most days here, unless the place is in the grip of a screaming Southerly, the door is open, and if i am on the computer i don’t even bother getting up to talk to the ‘sellers’ of this that or the other which has lead to some interesting conversations,

          One which involved the direct selling clothing truck, which leaves the unsuspecting or desperate who purchase their rubbish in a permanent prison of ongoing repayments ended up much to my amusement involving the plods after the seller informed me i ”must” get up from the table and look at the glossy product portfolio He was lugging from door to door,

          He then became offended when i told Him if His legs were no longer capable of carrying Him off of the property i would be more than willing to assist, even throwing in a generous offer of a free flight,

          Such a simple word No, and its surprising to find many who have no knowledge of its simple connotations…

          • Once was Tim 6.2.2.1.1

            Funny (strange) state of affairs those Eastern burbs.
            My preference of area for Wellington living – BUT for the fact(s) that
            – Wellington Airport/Infratil’s hegemony
            – Jackson the Peter’s hegemony and Divine Right to occupation whilst – well, effectively (even IF unintentionally) treating his peons like shit, and traditional residents even worse
            – my ex-wife lives there, and whilst we share two common interests, the nature of her work would stress the staunchest of tough guys.
            – There’s a bitter old queen living in the higher regions who currently seems to have more influence than he deserves (maybe when National finally wake up and dump her – I’m sure my ex will be at hand to rescue him from the devastation)
            – The extremely high rates of cancer amongst residents that once lived in certain parts around an old paint factory
            – One or two of Jonkey’s, and his security ‘team’s’ protectors have an interest there. I imagine one of his chauffeur’s Stone Street bathroom that fell of the back of a Hospital Board truck has long gone – but the sense of his entitlement and double standards still pervade.

            Actually – there’s a few reasons when I think about it. Shame really – the sun shines over there more than anywhere in Wellington.
            Revolution maybe @ Bad12? It wouldn’t actually take much to put the proverbial spanner in their adjustable bits

            • bad12 6.2.2.1.1.1

              Lolz how did the conversation descend or ascend so quickly from the bad behavior of door to door people to a question of revolution,

              i have been revolting in so many ways over such a long period such a question seems immaterial…

      • McFlock 6.2.3

        My plan for His next visit is to tell Him to print the thing on toilet paper grade newsprint and i will happily buy it…

        That’s probably not a bad idea for newspapers – find an additional use to warrant the cost.

    • srylands 6.3

      Yep I’ll join in.

  6. (this is funny..)

    http://www.alternet.org/video/viral-video-if-black-people-said-kinds-things-white-people-do

    ‘i hear you’re going out with a white guy..does he have a small dick..?’

  7. 1200 nz’ers die each year from bowel cancer..

    ..imagine if bowel-cancer were a road..?..what would we do..?

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/bowel-cancer-scheme-faces-staff-shortages/

    ..and funny story..!

    ..the cancer most associated with a diet high in animal-flesh/dairy..?

    ..bowel-cancer..!

    ..’would you like some bacon and cheese with that burger.?..’

    • bad12 8.1

      Mmmm, yummy, Bacon and Egg Burger, when i reach the ‘target weight”, with the loss of another 5-7 kilo’s i am going to celebrate with one,

      The more of the fat,fat,fat i lose the greater the craving becomes,

      News out today is that there is a new means of rating the ”health” content of food being rolled out which gives a star rating for all foods, the voluntary code gives five stars for the healthiest stuff and zilch stars for the unhealthiest,

      It will be amusing to see how the manufacturers of stuff such as ”simmer sauces”, many of them loaded with enough sugar to blow the whole families daily sugar loading in one meal ”choose” to rate their products…

      • phillip ure 8.1.1

        but then again..you do delight in being a contrarian..eh..?

        ..and yep..!..i am looking forward to the debate on how various cancer-causing/sugar/salt-laden-crap foods will be graded..

        ..and exactly who will be making those calls..?

        • bad12 8.1.1.1

          A contrarian Phillip???if i were to be such a creature why would i not take delight in having such a nature,

          Should i perhaps read ”the group-think” if any is apparent on a particular issue, and go along with it…

          • phillip ure 8.1.1.1.1

            “..why would i not take delight in having such a nature..”

            ..but you do..

            ..i am a member of contrarians-anonymous..(motto:..’just nod along’..)

            ..i will send you the link..if you like..

            • Once was Tim 8.1.1.1.1.1

              fuck – here we go! Bad12 and PU. Ya love each other really eh! Just get a room (joke)

              @PU Generally I go along with your politics and your commitment to commonsense and leftish belief. I just wish it didn’t come with all that US Southern State style preacher-man bullshit. It really doesn’t serve your own purpose very well – let alone getting everyone’s backs up.
              (Hark at me tho’ for preaching – I’ve got a Greywarbler – and probably others – who I generally agree with telling me I shouldn’t be mean to the work-life/portfolio-balanced Rinny and her enterage of a cast of hundreds – well maybe 40 or 50). I’ve obviously got egregious isssyoos, I don’t have a luvly Chardonnay in the cellar, and I don’t dive (darling))

              @Bad23 minus 11 (on account of fat fingers) – ya love winding him up yea?
              Shame he’s (or you’re) the wrong sex – you could marry and live in eternal bliss (sort of – shacked up, arguing like fuck and making each other cups of tea till one of you karks it) :p

              Still Big Huey Greg could provide counsel – he’s even got the establishment (including Polis Inspectors and other sages) on his ‘side’ these days (I mean really really really sociologically credible, and the ticket clipping could support the lot of us).

              I wish you two would kiss and make up – even tho’ PU is a pain in the ring piece

        • Once was Tim 8.1.1.2

          how about Bad goes the 3rd way Phil? A Bacon and Egg burger with a few lettuce leaves, and maybe an antichoke ( or whatever it’s called ) – he’ll shit it out soon enough

      • The Al1en 8.1.2

        First thing I’ll do on pay day when I get a new job is go to burger king. I’m having everything on everything with everything, mega upgraded to include half a cow and the best part of a pig…. And a coke zero.

        • phillip ure 8.1.2.1

          and yr a ‘green’..eh?

          ..fucken oxymoron on steroids..

          ..is the party still holding bb’s..?

          • The Al1en 8.1.2.1.1

            Are you saying Green voters have to be vegetarian? Because that’s just silliness in action.

            I don’t know what bb’s means, but I wouldn’t really know, not being in the party.

            • phillip ure 8.1.2.1.1.1

              calling yrslf ‘green’..and celebrating the torture/killing/eating of animals..and the attendant fucking over of the environment/contribution to global-warming etc etc….as you do..

              ..makes you..and those ‘greens’ like you..like i said..

              ..’fucken oxymoron on steroids’..

              ..how can u not be..?

              ..it is like claiming to be a ‘labour’-person..

              ..and running a sweatshop on the side..

              ..or a mana-person..

              ..and running a white-power newsletter on the side..

              ..(and ‘bb’..should have been bbq..)

              • The Al1en

                “calling yrslf ‘green’”

                I would better describe myself as voting green in 2014.

                “and celebrating the torture/killing/eating of animals” “as you do..”

                Never celebrated torture of any one or any thing. So in the spirit of the standard, citation needed.

                “..and the attendant fucking over of the environment/contribution to global-warming etc etc” “as you do..”

                Aside from the fact I’ve propagated thousands of trees and plants in my time, that’s quite a silly point. Using your logic, every time you fart you’re contribute to global warming, so shame on you. But if you’re slagging me off for being anti environment for eating a burger, care to comment about KDC and his luxury car collection?

                So upshot, are you saying Green voters can only be vegetarian?

                • hilarious..!

                  ..an opinion piece from slate from a defensive/self-justifying carnivore..

                  ..and a tofu-is-bad piece from 2010..(!)

                  ..from that bastion of quality journalism..

                  ..the fucken ‘telegraph’..(!)

                  ..that was the best/all you cd find..?

                  ..and it proves exactly what..?..in yr mind..?

                  ..fill yer boots with some real ‘evidence’..eh..?..

                  http://whoar.co.nz/?s=vegan

                  • The Al1en

                    “Are you saying Green voters can only be vegetarian?
                    If you’re slagging me off for being anti environment for eating a burger, care to comment about KDC and his luxury car collection?”

                    Yeah, thought not.

                    And that post above to Stephanie has got to be a wind up, surely.
                    Self justifying, bastion of quality journalism and you end up linking to your own site 😆

                    • you seem to be equating a general ignoring of/boredom with yr mindless drivel as some sort of ‘victory’..?

                      ..but then..you do seem to specialise in false-equivalences don’t you..?

                      ..with that groin-stretching kdc/car reference..

                      ..whoar..!

                      ..and a resource with years of hard evidence vs..anti-tofu article in ‘telegraph’..?

                      ..heh..!

                      ..and emoticons…the shorthand of the illiterate…

                    • The Al1en

                      You write “the attendant fucking over of the environment/contribution to global-warming etc etc….as you do” because I’d buy a burger, yet say “groin-stretching kdc/car reference” about a man with 18 performance gas guzzlers. How do you expect to retain credibility with such bs?

                      “and emoticons…the shorthand of the illiterate…”

                      And now a lecture about illiteracy from the bloke who can’t/won’t construct a proper sentence.
                      Rest assured, if there were a knob stroking emoticon, I’d use it to describe that effort, right about now.

                      Now if you will, answer the question. In your opinion, do you have to be a non burger eater to vote green?

                    • just on kdc..

                      ..which is a larger environmental footprint..?

                      ..one person has 18 cars..able to drive only one at a time..

                      ..or 18 people owning 18 cars..and driving them daily..?

                      ..and i’ve never actually heard kdc claim to be a green’..

                      ..unlike yrslf..

                      ..yr false-equivalence is double-false..eh..?..heh..!

                      ..and you do know the inventor of emoticons hates the fatuous little smiling faces they have become..?

                      http://whoar.co.nz/?s=emoticon

                      oh..!..and link has an emoticon for ‘turd’..

                      ..that could increase yr limited-vocabulary..eh..?

                    • The Al1en

                      🙄

                      Like I say, such bs equals limited credibility Philip, and that’s why your opinion means very little. What a pity.

                    • and i will treat yr simplistic/linear/stoopid-vote-green question with more seriousness than it deserves..

                      ..of course anyone can vote green..

                      ..but to claim to be ‘a green’..(usually said in smug-self-congratulary-tones..)

                      ..and to support/enable the wholesale torture/abuse/killings of animals..

                      ..just so you can eat their flesh/fat/bye-products..wear their skins on yr body..

                      ..and stil claim to be living a ‘green-life’..to being ‘a green’..

                      ..is hypocrisy/denial of epic fucken proportions..

                      ..and i haven’t even gone near the environment-footprint from that wholesale-torture of those animals..

                      ..then there are those skins you like to wear..eh..?

                      ..like a fucken barbarian/caveman..

                      ..there is the real/true cost of them..

                      http://whoar.co.nz/2014/environmental-film-of-the-year-2014-the-toxic-price-of-leather-video/

                      ..the above vid should be mandatory viewing for norman/turei..

                      ..and any other animal-flesh eating/skin-wearing ‘green’..

                    • The Al1en

                      “..of course anyone can vote green..”

                      Awesome.

                      “the rest of your post”

                      Just shows the nasty behind the caring mask, with a little peek of nuts.
                      Get a grip of yourself man.

                      Edit:

                      Is there a wackjob icon?

                    • yeah..i can get ‘nasty’ when i think of what you do to defenceless animals..

                      ..and that is the really ‘nasty’ stuff..eh..?

                      ..what you do to them..

                      ..i’m only hurling words..there are no screams/spurts of blood/killings from that..eh..?

                      ..and more on emoticons for you..

                      ..said better than i cd say it..

                      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/18/adults-emoji-grow-up-emoticons-teenagers

                      “..Adults who use emoji should grow up..

                      Not only do they lack the wit and imagination of memes-

                      • emoticons also typify an annoying persistence among adults to act like teenagers..”

                      ..sound familiar..?

                    • bad12

                      Go Phillip, all those trendies should be appearing in the Parliament dressed in suits made of sack-cloth, you tell em,

                      Fucking sack-cloth tho requires heavily polluting industrial production so that wont do will it,

                      Looks like acceptable wear in Phillips world is down to fig leaves, then again imagine the ecological damage to all those trees with large leaves that would have to provide the human race their foliage as clothing…

                    • nah..!..just use the hemp u don’t smoke..

                      ..close down the dairy-farms/cow-gulags..

                      ..and start planting seeds..

                    • bad12

                      And of course you are sitting there while you type Phillip, dressed from head to toe in clothing made form Hemp that you grew yourself right,

                      Of course the fact you type at all is down to industrial production which comes with its own production of CO2 right across the chain along with the extraction of petroleum products and at the end of its life the machine you type upon will probably be sent off to the Sub-continent to be deconstructed by child labour who will suffer the injuries of pollution from doing so while being paid a few cents a day,

                      Hypocrisy is all relative isn’t it Phillip, it’s as easy as hell to sit their in your Ware House fashion clothing produced from the sweatshops of Pakistan typing upon your industrially produced device decrying the actions of other’s whilst being supremely unaware of your own activity…

                    • The Al1en

                      “what you do to them..”

                      I only eat them, though if I had to, I’d be quite capable of getting my hands bloody, if it were ultimately either me or them, I’d eat fluffy wuffy kittens and puppy tail stew if I had to.
                      I do respect farm animals, but they are my food. You getting all militant and vindictive won’t end that, but fair play to you for your commitment to the cause.

                      As for using a smiley every so often, I’m not worried about a perceived lack of wit and imagination of memes by you.
                      I expected more, so be better, not bitter 😉

                    • i think i am pretty aware of the contradictions in my own life..vis a vis the environment..

                      ..and yes..all those you listed..

                      ..but i don’t have to be party to the wholesale abuse/torture/killings of animals..

                      ..and nor should anyone else purporting to be ‘green’..

                      ..it’s as simple as that..

                    • The Al1en

                      And you did so well up to line four.

                    • bad12

                      Right Phillip, you show your solidarity with the animal kingdom in all its glorious hypocrisy with little care for the human victims enslaved in the manufacture of your clothing of choice,

                      Your little diatribe against the leather wearing Greens is little better and probably worse in the vein that you should know better than the attacks upon Metiria for Her clothing and abode conducted recently by National Government Ministers,

                      Such personal attacks show us all how shallow your thinking really is and you should stick to attacks, if you must, on the Green Party over its politics or its political policy,

                      As soon as you delve into the shallow personal attack you are inviting as i have done a comparison with your own personal choices and are rightly then seen as a hypocrite…

                    • meh..!

                      ..see 32.1.2…

                    • bad12

                      By the way Phillip, your hypocrisy also extends to your income which i assume comes directly from the Government and thus is largely funded directly through the taxation on all this animal slaughter/torture you rail against,

                      So while you sit there pretending to be all holier than thou you are in fact living in the middle of a delusion,

                      Everything you eat, from carrots to soy milk, not only require the pumping of tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere, your very existence, every dollar or cent you spend on being ”i am a holier than thou Green”, is in part derived from the killing/torture/extraction of farm animals,

                      That simply, in light of your idiotic attack on ”leather wearing Greens” doubles the hypocrisy inherent in such an attack

                    • so..i take it you think it is ‘green’..to eat animals..?

                      ..a ‘green’-lifestyle must include charred bits of animals..?

                      ..and there must be no criticism of that..?

                      ..and are you trying to take allens’ false-equivalence crown off him..?

                    • so..to summarise:

                      ..the animals are abused/tortured/killed..

                      ..it fucks the environment..

                      ..and it gives you cancer..

                      ..i can see why you are so vehement in defending it..

                      ..anyway..later..!

                    • bad12

                      Laughable, Phillip removes himself from the guilt of dining out every night from the monies gained from the slaughter/torture/extraction of animals and their products by claiming that i have used a ”false equivalence”,

                      Fact Phillip, we are here dealing in Facts, the fact that you eschew the direct use of all animal products, and good on you we all should have choice, in no way removes from a factual discussion that every night you dine upon part of the profits derived from Government taxation of those you claim torture these animals,(and to a certain extent i agree with your prognosis thaat such animals are at times tortured),

                      However, you are no better than the shareholder of the meat works that slaughters such animals and derives an earning from that shareholding, you may not directly live off of the flesh of such animals but indirectly that’s exactly what you do,

                      So next time the milk tanker goes by, or the fucking god awful smell of one of the trucks off to the slaughterhouse offends your nostrils Phillip, know and admit to yourself that You live off of those animals despite choosing not to directly partake in their flesh,

                      You might then stop being such a fucking hypocrite…

  8. swordfish 9

    Latest 3 News Reid Research Poll

    If nothing else, the latest 3 News Reid Research Poll confirms what already seemed very likely – that the latest Fairfax/Stuff-Ipsos (with its extraordinary headline-grabbing plunge for Labour and the Left and its suggestion that National is “soaring”) was very much a rogue.

    Now, I know this will upset our very close Tory chums but let me explain (albeit briefly)…The three polls conducted either immediately before the Fairfax (ie the Roy Morgan and Herald-Digipoll) or immediately after (3 News Reid Research) recorded very similar results to each other – the Nats around 49-50%, the broader Right Bloc 52-54%, Labour 27-30%, Lab+Green 40-41%, Left Bloc as a whole 42-43%.

    In stark contrast, the Fairfax had Labour down on 23, Lab+Green on 35, the Left on 36, the Nats soaring on 57 (unprecedented since 2011) and the broader Right up on 59.

    And yet, of course, it’s the rogue Fairfax that got all the headlines and has been shaping the narrative.

    I’ve outlined it here at http://sub-z-p.blogspot.co.nz/ ….. although – as you can see – it’s still very much a work in progress.

    • ianmac 9.1

      Swordfish. Intriguing stats on your blog.
      But very very hard to read. The black pages and especially purple text I cannot manage. Very off putting I am afraid.
      But I get your point about the significance of the undecideds and that the National block has changed very little. I could not see/find anywhere on your blog to comment?

      • swordfish 9.1.1

        Cheers, Ian.

        I do acknowledge the severe lack of legibility in a comment at the top of the blog. It’s just that – as far as I’m concerned – it looks so damn good ! Very Space-Age, very Futuristic, almost as if we’re living in the year 1999. Tragically, I’m gonna have to transform it into something easier to read with a white background. And, I mean, where’s the fun in that ?

        • blue leopard 9.1.1.1

          How about just changing the darker text to lighter colours? It is only the dark colours that are problematic. Personally I think it is pretty good to have a different style to the bog standard white background.

    • Skinny 9.2

      Floating around 27% in this polls is solid and looks like the Left bloc are still on target. In reality Labour don’t need to lift much in the polls (3%) to pull off the win. There is 7% to 10 % to come in from previous non & new voters. I see why Key is happy to throw McCully under a bus in favour of Colin Craig.

  9. It seems that National would loose 1/3 of its votes if John Key where to leave early after the election according to today’s vote on the stuff.co.nz site

    • swordfish 10.1

      Geez, that wasn’t too pleasant. I had to wade through various Stuff stories on the vile Jimmy Savile possibly having sexually abused dead bodies, serial killer sentenced to die again, something about ‘Raining Maggots in Dunedin Flat Shocker’ and, worst of all, a story on Sally Ridge and Best-Dressed Celebrities – all in order to find what turns out to be a thoroughly unscientific on-line poll.

      • phillip ure 10.1.1

        heh..!

        ..that’s stuff for ya..!

        ..about the nearest we get to the trashiest british rags..

        ..i look at it early each morn to see if there is anything worth linking to..

        ..and more often than i should..i can’t even find one that makes the grade..

      • Lanthanide 10.1.2

        Evidently the FairFax ipsos poll had an additional question asking if people would vote for National if Key wasn’t the leader. 36% said no, ~24% said yes and the rest said it depends who the leader was. They then asked the same question in their online poll.

        It’s unclear if they asked people who said they would vote national only, or everyone.

        • swordfish 10.1.2.1

          Yeah, I saw veutoviper’s comment on yesterday’s Open Mike (incidently, isn’t it endearing that some commenters still preserve that vestige of last year’s solidarity-with-CV campaign. I find it quite touching). But not sure I agree with veuto’s suggestion that the results show a high percentage would not vote National if Key wasn’t leader.

          The Fairfax-Ipsos Question: “Would you vote for the National Party if John Key announced he would not serve for a third term as Prime Minister /”
          No 38.9%
          Yes 22.3%
          Yes, but it would depend on who would replace him 35.5%

          All depends, of course, on whether, as you say, the question was restricted to National supporters only. But I suspect it was either the entire sample or all except the Undecideds/likely non-voters. I find it hard to believe that as much as 39% of current National supporters would say No off-hand, without a moments hesitation. That 39% comes awfully close to the percentage currently telling pollsters they’ll be voting for one of the parties of the Left – 42% in most recent polls / 36% in the Fairfax-Ipsos in question.

          National are on 57% (and the Right Bloc 59%) in this (as I’ve argued, rogue) Fairfax-Ipsos – that’s if you include only the Decided and Likely Voters OR it’s on 43% (and the Right – 45%) if you include the entire sample. That suggests somewhere between a little over a third and a little over a half of current National supporters answered “Yes” to the question (depending on whether or not the Undecideds/non-voters were excluded). Note that those saying either “Yes” or “Yes, but depends” = 58% (about the same as the Nats inflated poll rating (57%) – so probably exactly the same sample as for the Party Support stats – ie the entire Decided sample). In which case,, roughly 61% of Nats essentially answer “It Depends” and the other 39% – the hardcore Nats -give an unequivocal “Yes”.

          All premised on the assumption, of course, that the question wasn’t restricted solely to our good chums and former sparring partners, the Nats.

      • ianmac 10.1.3

        Will there be a by-election in Mr Key’s electorate before the end of the year when he loses the election?

        • Kiwiri 10.1.3.1

          Like the Member for Karori, this Member for Merrill Lynched should also put himself as a list-only candidate.

          When both bugger off, no by-election would be triggered to give the electorate an opportunity to signal their dissatisfaction with the Nats.

          Btw, has the nuts list been released? Or are deals still going on behind the scenes?

          • Lanthanide 10.1.3.1.1

            They’re still dealing and sorting out exactly how they’re going to persuade East Coast Bays to vote for Craig.

            • yeshe 10.1.3.1.1.1

              Yes Lath …. sub-titled: “How To Insult and Lose Your Majority Constituents” must be workshop for this weekend’s conference.

              Could there be anything more demeaning and insulting for a voter in this situation than to be told and inveigled in to how to vote? Chemtrails and creationism anyone ? I hope they fail Key. I hope they return the insult to him; sheet it home directly to him.

              This is the most despicable prime minister we have ever known and one day, yes one day, the teflon will scratch and the toxins will leach out for all to see. May it be soon.

            • Kiwiri 10.1.3.1.1.2

              And the seagull minister is being readied by the Prime Assassinator to go on the list?

              http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/1501412150-pm-says-mccully-would-forego-east-coast-bays-seat-if-asked

              “The Prime Minister says Foreign Minister Murray McCully would step aside from his East Coast Bays seat if it was in the National Party’s best interests.”

              Friday June 27 2014 16:02

          • Penny Bright 10.1.3.1.2

            No – the National Party list has yet to be announced.

            I suspect that John Key will do a Bill English and stand only on the list.

            Hopefully, I am wrong because I REALLY would like to give him a run for his money, when I stand as an Independent Anti-Corruption Public Watchdog in Helensville.

            Imagine if supporters from ALL other parties standing in Helensville voted strategically –
            Penny Bright for the Helensville electorate vote, and focused on their respective Party votes?

            The decent ‘Public Watchdog’ vs the shonky ‘Wall St poodle’?

            PM (Penelope Mary ) Bright vs PM John Key?

            Given that the Helensville electorate boundaries are within the Auckland Supercity boundaries, I suspect that a number of the nearly 12,000 votes obtained in the 2013 Auckland Mayoral campaign, came from there?

            Nothing like a bold and cheeky campaign!

            What do you think folks?

            Whether or not Key bails from Helensville – that’s where I’ll be standing, on this very clear and simple ‘ACTION PLAN against ‘white-collar crime, corruption and corporate welfare’:

            http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ANTI-CORRUPTION-WHITE-COLLAR-CRIME-CORPORATE-WELFARE-ACTION-PLAN-Ak-Mayoral-campaign-19-July-2013-2.pdf

            As Miranda’s mum would say – “such fun!”

            PS: I’ve checked the information provided on the Parliamentary website on the current 121 MPs – seems that there is no one who has listed ‘Tradesperson’ on their ‘career’ background?

            Time for the NZ House of Representatives to be a little more ‘representative’?

            Cheers!

            Penny Bright

            Advanced Trade – Sheetmetal Engineering (http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/qualifications/)

      • greywarbler 10.1.4

        @swordfish
        I thought the Editor’s Picks on stuff were revealing of the gravitas of journalism these days.
        One item that is possibly informative – effluent – and the rest basically useful to that end.

        Effluent checks stress linked to rural suicides

        Dog derby on ice slippery challenge
        Dozens hospitalised after some DJ show
        Mensa match online dating for smart people
        BDO something
        Sport Refs
        Sport? Maraotter
        Sport NZ 3rd test

    • Wonderpup 10.2

      My entirely gut-feel prediction: he’ll be gone months after the election, win or lose. If they win, and that is no surety, then the angling for the leadership internally, and the public antagonism towards the government that follows their win, will make things really quite personally unpleasant for him. If they lose, he’ll step aside almost immediately, in Clark style.

      Without his genuine charisma, the National party will devolve into a cannibalistic orgy, and a caretaker will oversee the wreckage. The next leader of a national government knows its a long time away, and won’t go for it immediately. I know he looks like a bit of a buffoon now, but Woodhouse is the man for dismantling the state health system – and big medicine have very very deep pockets.

      OK. On that cheery thought, its time to back to work and undermine capitalism from within.

      • The Lone Haranguer 10.2.1

        I can see how you would come to those conclusions, but you need look at the likely candidates for leadership before trying to predict a departure date (I would pick mid the election cycle).

        Of the three names usually bandied around, two are suffering from self inflicted injuries – Collins and Bridges. So that leaves a clean run for Joyce if there was an early departure.

        So if Key wants Joyce, then he leaves early. If he wants either of the other two, or some other unnamed outsider, then hes got to go 18 months to give them time to catch up on Joyce.

        My pick is they will be looking for fresh meat who can get approval ratings like Key and that Collins and Bridges are toast, and that Joyce just isnt “the millionaire that you want to invite to a family BBQ”

      • Pasupial 10.2.2

        Wonderpup

        Woodhouse is a piece of work alright. From his involvement in facilitating Lui’s citizenship processing, and subsequent involvement with that businessman, to his “mistaken” claiming of an ANZAC ancestor during his Gallipoli visit to get press coverage:

        Woodhouse told a reporter while he was in Turkey for the 99th anniversary of the Anzac landings last month that he had seen the name on a memorial there and after checking online found it was his great uncle. But a spokesman for the aggrieved family, Gareth Woodhouse, said the man was his great uncle, not the minister’s…
        said he had not intended his comments to the reporter to be on the record… The minister had put a picture up on his website of him looking at Frank’s name on the memorial

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10065941/Minister-apologises-for-Gallipoli-relative-gaffe

        You can’t be taught that level of sleaziness, it has to come naturally. So you may be right to say that Woodhouse has all the makings of a Nat PM, it’s not really a compliment though.

        But at least he does David Clark look good by comparison (and I very rarely have a good word to say about Parker’s ex-treasury lackey). My own preference is for; Turei as Dunedin North electorate MP, but the Green campaign is too tightly focused on the party vote. All three should be high enough on their respective Party lists to get back in anyway. Rob Stewart of the Internet Party (no Mana candidate as per IMP agreement) will be interesting to watch, he won’t get in this time; but has access to the funds that the Greens lack, and may end up positioned well for 2017.

        Hmm, drifting off topic here. Woodhouse is almost as much a self-serving sociopath as Key, so I imagine he’ll have a bright future with National. Unless of course he gets a better offer, in which case he’ll take the money and run.

        • Bearded Git 10.2.2.1

          I heard somewhere a couple of weeks ago that Woodhouse is tipped as a future leader .

          • phillip ure 10.2.2.1.1

            that was that rightwing/reactionary beer-pimp neil (someone) on nat-rad-panel..a few weeks ago..

            ..he had me falling off my chair with the hilarious contention that ‘woody’ is a future national party leader..

            ..(i guess they know each other..what else cd excuse/explain such nonsense..?..)

          • Lanthanide 10.2.2.1.2

            Damn. Bridges needs to be their future leader.

            • The Lone Haranguer 10.2.2.1.2.1

              Bridges showed a level of incompetence that was breath taking.

              The Nats have it figured that the next leader needs to be a folksy millionaire bloke who can cook a BBQ.

              All Bridges has cooked is his goose.

      • greywarbler 10.2.3

        Key’s charisma is waning, more whining. He sounds harrassed really,only to be expected when there are so many lies to remember. He may be extraordinary at that but it is a telling pace he keeps, and very enervating. There probably feeding him vitamin pills and viagra to keep him going and upright.

      • Skinny 10.2.4

        I have a feeling Gerry Brownlee is going to take over after John Key slivers back to the States

        • phillip ure 10.2.4.1

          not meaning to be picky here..

          ..but how does one ‘sliver’..?

          ..(it sounds painful..)

          • yeshe 10.2.4.1.1

            phillip … maybe it’s to do with word association .. like slivers prick and all that ? 🙂 completely understandable viewed that way imho !

          • Skinny 10.2.4.1.2

            Ha ha quite right *slither
            Not much good at multi tasking on the hoof or spelling. Was in a cue at Boom Fuk Palmerston North airport. Great got an early flight the hell out of here back up North.

  10. Sable 11

    Looks like the TPP is still alive and well. Those wishing to help quash it can add there names here:

    https://openmedia.org/facetoface?src=156425

  11. Martin 12

    Why the hell would a labour party oppose the logging?
    is Matt McCarten a union man or a far left greenie

    • bad12 12.1

      Possibly to stop the creeping destruction of our forest parks and DOC estate…

      • Martin 12.1.1

        whatever, conspiracy eh?

        • bad12 12.1.1.1

          If you see a conspiracy Dick, use your Head, and tell us all about it wont you…

          • Martin 12.1.1.1.1

            You a the one suggesting conspiracy
            Any other reason that you can come up with?
            Are you suggesting that National caused the storm too?

            • bad12 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Thanks Dick, now that’s really using your Head, i would bother asking you to point out where i have suggested ‘a conspiracy’ or that National created this particular storm,

              But,

              Playing tic tac toe with dullards isn’t anything i find amusing at this time of day, so, wont bother,

              i would suggest that your time would be better spent in a 4 year old’s remedial writing class concentrating on comprehension and sentence structure…

              PS, the site contains an ‘edit’ function for a reason, that being so as to allow contributors,if they so choose, to not look completely fucking dull by editing their ‘work’ even after the ‘submit’ icon has been pushed…

              • Martin

                Hey heres your conspiracy comment 9.15am
                Possibly to stop the creeping destruction of our forest parks and DOC estate…

                Please respond if you can, although im sure all you would be capable of is using the word Dick.

                • blue leopard

                  Without knowing much of the background I tend to approve of the idea of logging some of those trees – however the ‘creeping destruction’ is a worthy concern. It is a bog standard approach to ‘get the foot in the door’ and then extend activities, no conspiracy, totally common method of pushing at boundaries, and therefore a solid concern worth addressing at the outset.

                  Both the Greens and Labour made some very good arguments re not logging – or having a cautious approach – not least the issue that this logging could undermine the market that already exists re Rimu – which is what O’Conner said is the majority of type of wood that would be recovered if I recall what he said correctly.

                  Calling that concern ‘conspiracy’ is simply a lame way of not addressing very real issue in relation to this idea. Cavalier attitudes are fine by people commenting here, but I seriously hope this isn’t the attitude that the government is going to take – these issues need addressing if it is going to be something that has good results.

                  • Martin

                    But theres no evidence that this is going to creep anywhere. If that did start happening then raise all hell but dont go finding some way out reason of which there is no proof its going to happen to not vote for it.
                    Its poor politics as the general public see them as being for rotting trees and not jobs.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      No evidence apart from the actual evidence, that is.

                    • blue leopard

                      @ Martin.

                      No. Ensure the legislation protects from creep propensities and other negative consequences, such as collapsing the existing market and having the profits from the ‘windfall’ go directly offshore and then proceed. This is exactly the approach Labour are taking all that is required is some cooperation on National’s part.

                      Will National cooperate? Probably not.

                      Creating bad legislation and refusing to compromise with parties coming up with good suggestions on how to make the legislation better is bad governing and something that we have come to expect from this National government.

                      If only the general public would be informed of this behaviour of National – fat chance with the current disheveled and government-dictated state the media are in.

                      +1 OAB

                    • McFlock

                      Well, apparently there are no restrictions on the bulldozong roads, contaminating waterways, or ‘accidentally’ damaging live trees to get at the windfalls. Nor is there a transparent process for granting contracts.

                      In a national park. 🙄

                      Or were prosser’s concerns addressed in the bill?

                    • Martin

                      McFlock i think the legislation says it cant happen in a national park, only on conservation land etc

                    • McFlock

                      McFlock i think the legislation says it cant happen in a national park, only on conservation land etc

                      You are correct, my mistake.

                      Amended:

                      There are no restrictions on the bulldozong roads, contaminating waterways, or ‘accidentally’ damaging live trees to get at the windfalls. Nor is there a transparent process for granting contracts.

                      In any conservation area and reserve within the West Coast region that is owned by the Crown and administered by the Department (other than an ecological area or Te Wāhipounamu (the South West New Zealand World Heritage Area) or Waitangiroto Nature Reserve or any national park). 🙄

                    • Martin

                      McFlock yep i agree with you there.
                      The DG will be under pressure to make sure his consents dont create a mess.
                      Hard to get away with making a mess with todays covert survelliance technology

                    • McFlock

                      The DG will be under pressure to make sure his consents dont create a mess.
                      Hard to get away with making a mess with todays covert survelliance technology

                      You’re missing the point there.
                      A decent piece of legislation wouldn’t leave it solely to the competence and goodwill of the DG.
                      It’s easy to get away with polluting waterways, bulldozing untouched bush and so on when you have a specific exemption from any responsibility or penalties.

                      And even if forest & bird snapped a contractor clearfelling live trees and damming waterways to make roads, nothing could be done to stop it and the damage would already have been done, anyway

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Martin, you have failed (miserably) to offer any argument as to how Bad’s comment constitutes a conspiracy theory.

                  Creeping destruction is merely a statement of fact. Nibbling around the edges reduces the size of the biscuit. This is far beyond that, though, the provisions of the bill having been succinctly outlined by Richard Prosser, of all people.

                  If you are ignorant of the value of fallen timber to the forest ecology are you also ignorant of the meanings of the words “road” and “culvert” too?

                  Whether the wind damage can be described as “natural” is debatable, but this is disaster capitalism at its most grasping.

                  • Martin

                    “Whether the wind damage can be described as “natural” is debatable, but this is disaster capitalism at its most grasping.”

                    If it wasnt natural what was it?

                    Please do tell me how all these downed trees add to the forestry ecology? Are you saying that a small percentage removed for logging is going to harm this system?
                    The way i see it is that all the downed trees are going to rot then spawn a lot of insects and thus a lot of rice and rats. Yes it will provide a lot of nutirents for new trees but only so many trees can grow in a certain area so why waste this wood to feed saplings which are never going to get mature anyway?

                    Id assume that Bad does not live on the West Coast and is unemployed as his/her risk reward analysis seems totally weighted towards a risk that does not have any evidence of actually going to happen.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      So, now we’ve established that you are as ignorant of forest ecology as you are of the contents of the bill.

                      “The way you see it” is evidence of little else.

                      I said debatable because weather (in this case wind) is affected by climate (no shit Sherlock), and this is, after all, the Anthropocene.

                    • Martin

                      So are you saying climate pulled them down?
                      hows it do that without wind?
                      yes im not a forest ecologist so please please explain how removing a small percentage of trees is going to lead to the creeping destruction of the forests and doc estate

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      I think you’ll find ‘creeping’ anything usually starts with ‘a small percentage’.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      English comprehension problems too? You poor thing.

                      If you want to understand what I’m saying I can recommend a dictionary and some remedial tutelage, because you’re struggling on your own.

                      I doubt this will help, but perhaps it may be of some use to other readers.

                      The answer to the oft-asked question of whether an event is caused by climate change is that it is the wrong question. All weather events are affected by climate change because the environment in which they occur is warmer and moister than it used to be….

                      Kevin E. Trenberth, senior scientist, National Center for Atmospheric Research.

                    • Martin

                      So is your point that since climate change has brought them down they shouldnt be harvested?
                      You may be more of an expert on climate change than me but doesnt rotting wood release carbon and make climate change worse?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      No, that isn’t my point. For one thing you can’t “harvest” what you didn’t plant in the first place: those resources are “extracted”.

                      I note that your notion of a debate is where you feign misunderstanding to score points. Yawn.

                    • Martin

                      “No, that isn’t my point. For one thing you can’t “harvest” what you didn’t plant in the first place: those resources are “extracted”.”

                      Really this comes down to you not liking the use of harvest instead of extracted.

                      Really you should take off to the Greens. Labour NZwas founded in the coal towns of the WestCoast

                    • bad12

                      And i will assume Martin that you have never spent any amount of time in a real forest which has you here talking out of your asshole,

                      Downed trees in a forest do not ‘die’,

                      A fallen native tree, unlike pinus radiata,will grow a number of trees from its trunk, ie: from the side that is up to the sun, in 90% of natural forests a small branch will begin the long slow journey to becoming the main tree, using the rotting hulk of the fallen log as it rots over the years as the fertilizer for its growth,

                      In a natural forest there is an ongoing process of seeding from a mature tree which results in any given year to a dozen baby trees, all clones of the parent, growing on the forest floor radiating from the main body of the tree, this process will, while the parent plant survives and thrives, mean that these baby clones of the parent are an ongoing process of growth and die off, the baby trees become humus on the forest floor as they die off unable to out-compete the parent plant for sunlight this ongoing process will continue until such time as the parent tree is felled for what ever reason,

                      So while the claim is that these downed trees in the West Coast forests are dead, they are far from being so,

                      To log these downed trees from the forest floor will in turn damage the ecology of the forest, a downed tree, or downed trees en mass simply expose the smaller baby trees in the forest to the sunlight the parent trees growth denied to them thus allowing them to grow into the replacements for the downed parents as nature intended them to do,

                      The process of removing the large downed trees will involve heavy machinery and humans across the whole of the forest floor with roads being cut altering water runoff and the dragging of trees across and from the forest floor damaging irreversibly the baby trees surrounded by their fallen parents,

                      Once the initial damage has been accomplished, removing the parent trees which would have still produced in most cases other viable trees along with destroying much of the already present cohort of other young trees which inevitably occurs during a mechanical logging process areas of high rainfall,(in this case the West Coast which measures its rainfall per year in meters) are then subject through lack of ground cover to soil erosion and run off of water altered by the intrusion of loggng roads,

                      As has been shown by the intense logging of Wellington Tararua Forest Park in previous decades such erosion simply destroys the ecology removing from large areas the humus from the forest floor built up over centuries and once that humus is removed the soil itself soon follows severely handicapping the ability of any remaining vegetation to survive,

                      Once the ability of the natural forest is severely handicapped in this way, invasive species unable to survive in a mature forest move into the severely compromised ecology where their presence has been lacking, Gorse and Manuka/Kanuka being able to thrive in severely depleted ecologies being the front runners in this country to colonize heavily compromised ecologies,

                      There you go Martin, a couple of reasons why logging of out natural forests whether they are standing or not is not a good idea,

                      (excuse me fellow Standard readers and writers for the length of this particular explanation which is why i left it to this time of day)…

    • Lanthanide 12.2

      Labour wanted an amendment to say the logging contracts and jobs would go only to companies on the west coast. National refused.

      Seems like a pretty reasonable Labour amendment IMO.

      • Martin 12.2.1

        There are not many large logging firms on the west coast due to the past removal of logging rights there, if they got the contract there would of course be hardly any competitive tendering and they would not probably be able to scale up in time to log the woods. The wood need to be gone by spring remember. So Labours policy would just mean less jobs would be made.
        At the end of the day its going to hire labourers, isnt that what labour was once about? With the CHCH rebuild they are of course going to be using West Coast labour any way as it makes sense from a business decision.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2.1.1

          By spring? Why don’t you show some personal responsibility and educate yourself about the things you’re pontificating on rather than expecting us to do it?

          Please note, this is not a comment about the merits of the bill – it is a comment about your ignorance of its contents.

          What’s your excuse? Are you similarly ignorant of other policy matters?

          • Martin 12.2.1.1.1

            Well you tell me what the merits of the bill are?
            I cant see how removing a few of the multiple fallen trees in a forest is going to lead to its destruction.
            If you have any proof that it would then let me know.
            I dont give a toss if theres a few less insects, there is going to be plenty for them to eat anyway

            • weka 12.2.1.1.1.1

              Dude, there is ample discussion on this on the standard in the past few days, including back up links. Start educating yourself.

              • Martin

                I have no concerns for the long term survival of the forest from having some of these downed trees removed.
                I care much more for the jobs on the Coast then for any concerns into the future which can be addressed then if anything untoward does occur.

                Educate me how having a few trees in an area removed will result in significant demise of the forest and i will totally agree with you

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Start by reading (and comprehending) the material on that very subject you’ve already been provided with.

                  Do I need to rub your face in it?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2.1.1.1.2

              When you come up with an excuse for your behaviour and complete lack of personal responsibility I’ll think about providing you with a link to the text of the bill.

              • Martin

                Whats my behaviour that you make mention of?
                Whats my complete lack of personal responsibilty too?
                All im hearing here is that people want a lot of downed trees left behind. The press release from Labour doesnt state that as being the problem. Perhaps you are actually more suited to The Greens than Labour

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Scrolling up, like reading, is a skill.

                  Why don’t you show some personal responsibility and educate yourself about the things you’re pontificating on rather than expecting us to do it?

                  Please elaborate on the implicit assumption in your “more suited” remark. I need to make up for saving Grumpy.

                  • Martin

                    if thats me can you tell me what time the “more suited” remark was?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      🙄

                    • blue leopard

                      What? Can’t you bare to read through your own comments to find it yourself, Martin?

                      I guess I don’t blame you on that score… 🙂

                    • Martin

                      I cant see it, can you? if so what time?

                    • blue leopard

                      It is in the comment directly above the one that OAB makes reference to it.
                      Perhaps you can’t see it for looking 😆

                    • Martin

                      thanks yes ive seen it now, of course………..

                      Ok il elaborate, you are talking like a Green, real labour people put jobs ahead of voting for rotting trees. Yes the legislation isnt perfect but near enough that i can make out with a quick read so instead of having an impression of being anti forestry jobs send a signal to the people that jobs are important.

                    • weka

                      The Green Party promote job creation. What problem do you have with their policies on this?

                      It’s not that the legislation isn’t perfect, it’s that it has been written to allow for greedy people to exploit the conservation estate. I’m not talking about West Coasters needing work, I’m talking about people higher up the food chain. As the legislation is written now, bugger all benefit might go to the West Coast people.

                      You really should read the debate, esp the bit by NZFirst MP Prosser.

                    • Martin

                      Well anyone can put in a contract tender to go and get these trees and do what they want with them, and all the while they have to pay commissions to DOC.
                      Unless there is corruption and the contracts go deliberately to some awful vindictive business entity then i dont see how it can be said that lots of the profits are going to go to those who dont deserve any of it.
                      But i will look into Mr Prozzers comments soon.

                      Also my problems with the Greens on it is they went on the news and said they are against the logging of the conservation estate full stop. If they were against it for heavy equipment damage and weeds then thats fair enough but its not limited to that, they say they arent into boom and bust industrys such as this

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Martin, now you’ve found the comment and regurgitated it, please elaborate on your notion that you are among “real Labour” people.

        • Will@Welly 12.2.1.2

          The thing I find disturbing about the bill, is why did National want a window of 5 years to extract the logs. Surly the logical thing to do would be to send in a ‘team’ first, mark those logs that are profitable to remove, then send in experienced loggers to do the job. Remember all the extraction will be by helicopter so some logs just won’t be viable. Obviously there would need to be a number of teams doing this, and those logs would need to be stock piled.
          Ideally though, the West Coast should have priority. None of the logs should be exported. We need to stop this export of New Zealand jobs. Russia and Canada have reduced the amount of logs they export to China – they export more timber to there, and earn a greater return. So who are the fools? Dumbass Key & co who lead us down the garden path with their bullsh!t.

    • millsy 12.3

      Labour wasnt opposed to the logging.

      Its just that they didnt want to give the logging companies carte blache to take the logs and leave bugger all behind.

      Looking at the state of our forestry industry, I cannot trust this to happen without something fucking up.

      Its a pity Timberlands West Coast was wound up. Having an SOE overseeing the wood extraction would ensure that standards are high, and we dont get some kind of free for all gold rush.

      • Martin 12.3.1

        Nothing ive read says that bugger all will be left behind.
        I heard on the news only a tiny portion of trees are going to be taken.I assume thats because most wouldnt of being able to of being extracted before rot sets in in spring

        • ianmac 12.3.1.1

          Just rimu would be extracted. My favourite native tree.

          • Martin 12.3.1.1.1

            Yeah it is a nice tree although not my favourite.
            I like the cabbage tree

            • ianmac 12.3.1.1.1.1

              Cabbage trees are great in a paddock by a creek. We planted some for the Para Wetlands recovery. Cabbage Trees are rubbish in the suburbs.

              • greywarbler

                There is a nice cabbage tree or lookalike with red leaves. And has that cloudy smoke bush look flower.

                • Martin

                  im going to look for that now, thanks

                • Martin

                  i think i might have found it- cordyline burgundy spire.
                  Fanatstic tip thanks, its next on my purchase list but not many at $20 each

                  • greywarbler

                    Good one. Martin They are not as easily found as regular cabbage trees, and I think there is a dwarf variety, don’t know if all red’s are.
                    Thanks for name I’ll file that away.

                    • Martin

                      Theres also red sensation and red fountain to add to that list too.
                      Im not sure which ones are the dwarfs either yet

          • grumpy 12.3.1.1.2

            On our family farm at Hari Hari, there are a huge number of Rimu trees down but also Totara, Matai and Kahikatea. Most of the South Westland forest is Rata- Kamahi, the beech damage is further North.
            I agree that West Coast businesses should have sole use of the resource, both the logging and the value added industries. The only thing leaving the Coast should be finished product, such as furniture.

            • Te Reo Putake 12.3.1.1.2.1

              Ah, Hari Hari! Nothing beats a short walk up the river, a soak in the Amethyst and a beer in the pub. My favourite place on the coast.

              • grumpy

                What pub? Hari Hari or Pukekura?

                • Te Reo Putake

                  Both are great, but I meant the one in Hari Hari township. The Hotel Hari Hari? I’ve parked up there for a day most winters in the last ten years, and walked up the river to the either the amethyst or the one on the other bank a few km up. The latter only if I was feeling particularly fit, coz it’s quite a knackering tramp.

                  • vto

                    highest concentration of sandflies in the entire country, almost … agreed lovely jubbly though … like the entire coast imo

                  • grumpy

                    Yep, it’s a long way, your almost at the Lambert by then.

                • vto

                  Puke been closed for a while aint it?

                  and grumpy don’t fret about the stockholme syndrome thingy you mentioned above, the cycles swing around and around …. bit of blue, bit of red ….

                  • grumpy

                    Dunno, I think it’s still there, just turned into a cafe thing I think? I remember when the old sawmill was out the back. The bar was a keg on a trestle and the floor covered in sawdust! I was 10.

            • framu 12.3.1.1.2.2

              “I agree that West Coast businesses should have sole use of the resource, both the logging and the value added industries.”

              +100 there grumpy – if its going to come out the west coast should get all the benefit

              its telling that a move like this, that is such obvious PR for a political party leading into an election, was rejected

              • weka

                “I agree that West Coast businesses should have sole use of the resource, both the logging and the value added industries. The only thing leaving the Coast should be finished product, such as furniture.”

                Problem with that is, you can’t set up the infrastructure to do that without ensuring long term supply of material (ie native timbers). If this were being done alongside native forestry (as opposed to cherry-picking conservation estate) I would completely agree.

                • grumpy

                  If the timber available is milled, dried, machined and stored properly, it could last indefinately. Just imagine what could be done with that fallen timer. Not just Rimu.
                  Every coaster knows that once that fallen timber is cleared and light let in, the regrowth is amazing. It has to be cleared to regrow.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    It has to be cleared to regrow?

                    Is that true?

                    No, it isn’t.

                    Let’s change the law next time there’s a storm. And every time after that. There’s money to be made (for loggers, while everyone else puts up with the brand damage).

                    • grumpy

                      Needs sunlight – like most things 🙂

                    • grumpy

                      Needs sunlight, like most things 🙂

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      They have that on the West Coast?

                      I’m sure you mean well, but your comment is in direct contradiction of information provided by NickS on the subject, and I have to say he sounds more credible than you, especially with your partisan bias ‘n’ all that.

                    • grumpy

                      Dunno who NickS is but the authority on all this is a guy called Ian (Sid) James, who last I heard lived at Okarito?
                      A bloody good forestry scientist who I worked with at F&RES. If he says it’s so, then it is! Someone should ask him.

                  • weka

                    grumpy, are you suggesting that we convert conservation estate to farm forestry?

                    • grumpy

                      Nope, forest service tried that, just look around Seddonville or Lake Ianthe. Some of the podocarp forest is in pretty bad nick though (including around Hari Hari before the storms). I don’t know if it’s a cyclical thing or possum damage.

                    • weka

                      Ok, it’s just that you appeared to be replying to my comment about how setting up infrastructure to deal with the windfall timber this time round was not sustainable. What was your point?

                • framu

                  oh – hadnt thought of that – good point

            • ianmac 12.3.1.1.2.3

              I built a yacht using mostly kahikatea for framing. Marvellous wood to work. And pinus radiata also great. Though undervalued.

              • grumpy

                The biggest use for Kahikatea was for concrete boxing. Tons of it used in the Upper Waitaki scheme. All dozed up and burnt.

        • weka 12.3.1.2

          “Nothing ive read says that bugger all will be left behind.”

          Try this then, esp Prosser’s speech,

          http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/debates/debates/drafts/50HansY_20140626/draft-transcript-thursday-26-june-2014

          Then Eugenie Sage,

          “Past Governments have progressively wound back the logging of our magnificent rimu and beech forests on public lands, in response to the public demand for their protection. We finally stopped logging on public land on the West Coast in 1999, as one of the first acts of a new Labour Government to stop Timberlands destructive West Coast beech scheme.

          That scheme involved helicopter logging. It was not the gentle extraction of single logs from the forest. It was pockmarking the forest with an ugly series of 2 to 3 hectare clear cuts. That is what we will get with this bill.”

          Even if you agree that taking logs is ok, there are serious problems with this legislation.

          • Martin 12.3.1.2.1

            Im not sure what a clear cut is, but from what i can see these areas are all felled clear by the storm already.
            Whoever allowed for clear cuts to happen in that pockmarking fashion needs to be fined heavily

            • One Anonymous Bloke 12.3.1.2.1.1

              “I don’t know what they are, but whatever they are, someone’s going to pay!”

              Ignorance is a condition we all share, and the stupid is strong in this one.

              • Martin

                Id be really interested if you can tell me why its stupid wondering how it was allowed to be pockmarked when it was meant to be individual logs?
                So since im stupid and you are so bright tell me was that due to a govt official not supervising properly, corruption bad law or what?
                Im awaiting your answer you genius

                • weka

                  Because there are people in politics and people in the industry who don’t value native forests. Why would they protect them when they can make money from them?

                  If you want to understand this read the parliamentary debate. It’s very clear that this legislation is being written to serve the needs to greedy people who don’t give a fuck about conservation.

                  • Martin

                    You can make money from harvesting downed trees and still value the forests.
                    I think its much better to provide jobs from them rather than let them lie there rotting as i dont give a fig about a few less insects in what will be an already ample abundance of them.

                    • weka

                      Sure, that just means that you don’t value conservation estate or intact native ecosystems. Good you are honest about it.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  The stupidity is inherent in proposing that someone be punished (fined) for something when you don’t know what it is. Like calling for a ban on dihydrogen oxide.

                  I’m awaiting your excuse for your behaviour you hypocrite.

                  • Martin

                    i know what single log harvesting is and what pockmarking an area is so settle down.
                    I know that if it was contracted to be single logs and it wasnt then someone needs to be hit up for that.
                    If you dont understand that let me know

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      🙄

                      Another red herring presented in bad faith.

                    • weka

                      Can you please point to where in the legislation it says only single log harvesting is allowed?

                    • Martin

                      “Can you please point to where in the legislation it says only single log harvesting is allowed?”

                      That was in regards to a prior comment from someone who said timberlands was only allowed to do single logging but ended up doing pockmarking areas. That made me angry that whoever was in charge of regulating it didnt stop it

                    • weka

                      So you are ok with clearcutting this time round?

                    • Martin

                      weka, no,
                      its downed trees, there is no clear felling of live trees. Unless you are saying they are going to remove a whole lot of upright standing trees in the area- that would be totally against what Nick Smith is saying.
                      I quote him directly here
                      Dr Smith replied he was all for saving live trees, but couldn’t justify leaving so much valuable timber to rot.

                    • weka

                      They’re allowed to take roots, stumps, tree ferns, logs. Show me where it says in the legislation that they can only take single trees, and not clear an area.

                    • Martin

                      I didnt say they cant clear an area of wind felled trees, what i said is that they cant clear an area if any trees there have not being wind felled.
                      I agree some felled stuff should be left behind.

                      I suppose it will all come down to what happens in the expressions of interest that DOC is now calling for. If it is showing that these areas are being cleared right now then its going to put Nick Smith into a bad position for him and National
                      I will be watching to see what happens.

            • weka 12.3.1.2.1.2

              The legislation is written to allow for clearcutting, there will be no fining. If the govt intended only select trees to be removed, in the way is being discussed in the public (ie a tree here and there), then why have they not written the legislation to ensure that?

              If you don’t understand what a clear cut is, I suggest you stop commenting and stop promoting policy until you do.

              • Martin

                A clear cut is a area of trees all cut down and removed.
                The only trees allowed to be removed by this legislation are those all ready down from the storm so therefore no clear cutting is going to happen.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  What part of written to allow for clearcutting are you having trouble with?

                  Weka tells you that the bill allows for more than the wind-felled timber to be taken. You respond by saying the opposite. When did you read the bill? Certainly not since the last time you demonstrated ignorance of its contents.

                  We need better wingnuts.

                  • Martin

                    Show me one quote from any politican, green, red or blue that there is going to be felling of living upright trees in these west coast forests?
                    All the contracts which are having expressions of interests put in are for felled trees.
                    You are scaremongering.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      How would you know?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      “Show me one quote from any politican, green, red or blue that there is going to be felling of living upright trees in these west coast forests?”

                      Ahem.

                      Clause 10 provides that the Director-General may grant an authorisation
                      to a person to remove wind-blown timber and to carry out other activities that are reasonably necessary to allow for the safe and efficient removal of the timber.

                • Te Reo Putake

                  Nope, the legislation allows for felling of upright trees to get access to the fallen trees. And who’s going to monitor what’s taken anyway? You?

                  • Martin

                    wheres the legislation?

                  • Martin

                    No, not me, too many insects around there for me.
                    Whos the director general?
                    There will surely be OIA paperwork trail showing what they permit

                    • weka

                      The current director general is Lou Sanson. The previous one was Al Morrison, who thought that putting a tunnel through a mountain range, and a private road, in a National Park was a good idea. That’s right, a private road in a National Park for big business to use.

                      You can see in the legislation that much power for the log removal is vested with the GC of Conservation. Instead of protections being written into the legislation they will be in the hands of whoever the govt of the day has appointed.

                    • Martin

                      Yes i do see that and yes i did not agree with those roads too.
                      It would be concerning to me if The DG is seen to permit the felling of live trees. If felled live trees do make it out of the forest then i will be very pissed off. However from reading this legislation only wind blown trees can be harvested(extracted…) so someone would have to be deliberately breaking the law to do that…
                      I note this legislation bans this logging from happening in National Parks.

                • weka

                  Did you read the parliamentary debate yet?

                  • Martin

                    where can i read that?

                    • weka

                      Here, in the comment I made earlier that you replied to,

                      Open mike 27/06/2014

                      Draft legislation (it’s an easier read as the PDF)

                      http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2014/0223/latest/versions.aspx

                    • McFlock

                      oh ffs 🙄

                      So you’re arguing that the law change is fine when you don’t even know what it is?

                    • weka

                      He appears to think that what he reads in the paper or hears on talk back is reliable.

                    • Martin

                      Thanks am reading the legislation now.
                      Not talkback but i do expect the media and the greens and labour to say that they think this will lead to widespread logging if they think that will happen.
                      All i have heard from the greens on tv3 party is that no one should be allowed into these forests to log full stop.
                      And from Labour that it should go to West Coast companies. Which i think is impractical as the wood will rot soon and so the sooner its out i think is the better.
                      I think that would be unethical to make some kind of trade barrier within NZ.

                      What im seeing here is just further poor political work from Labour. The impression is that they prefer wood to rot than go to the company best able to harvest them and provide a return to the taxpayer as they want to put some highly restrictive barrier up to who can complete for the work.

                      Hows this affect the working mans impression of Labour? Well I think it makes them look impractical and Greenie

                    • weka

                      TV3 and other media have vested interests. Better to go to source. Try the GP website for press releases if you want to know what they really think.

                      There is usually analysis on the left wing blogs as well, which gives a much more rounded picture of issues than you will get from TV news.

                    • Martin

                      weka
                      ok thanks
                      il have a read of that next

                  • Martin

                    No unfortunately as ive had a few work emails to get to, am looking at GP website at present

              • Martin

                Dont you get it? its not cutting at all……. the trees have fallen over and are dead/dying!!!!!!!

          • grumpy 12.3.1.2.2

            Doubt helicopter logging was used for beech, not really worth it. Relatives of mine used helicopters to log Rimu and other podocarps.

      • greywarbler 12.3.2

        @millsy
        I thought Damien O’Connor spoke well this morning on radionz – he is an asset to Labour. A good guy from the older group.

        He made a comment that he was trying to get the wood to the exclusive destination of the two mills on the West Coast that can cope with the log size. Apparently that could not be ensured, but he felt it was wise to go ahead. and agree with NACTs Bill. I hope that there can be enough pressure put on the organisers to ensure that it is all dealt with on the West Coast using Coasters for workers and as Damien said, giving some employment after the closing of various mine operations.

        I talked to an environmentalist at one time who said that what Timberlands was planning in selectively milling some of the Coast was sustainable and also advantageous to the forest because it would open up areas allowing seed already in the ground the opportunity to start growth.

        • grumpy 12.3.2.1

          Good bloke, Damian. Increasingly seems to be in the wrong party.

          • Martin 12.3.2.1.1

            yes, but not the greens, not national, not nzfirst so just where should he be as id probably go there too

          • MrSmith 12.3.2.1.2

            The Conservatives with the rest of the Bigots would suit him perfectly grumpy.

      • Martin 12.3.3

        But thats the impression that has being made by them voting against it.
        They have being played well and truly again by the torries. They are seemingly become useless at politics; people wont vote forn a party thats giving an incompetent impression.

        The two Mps crossing the floor shows that somethings wrong with how Labour dealt with this

        • lprent 12.3.3.1

          The two Mps crossing the floor shows that somethings wrong with how Labour dealt with this

          Why? They were both allowed to and encouraged to do so. They are electorate MPs. It wasn’t like their vote was going to make a difference between winning and losing.

          • Martin 12.3.3.1.1

            Because it strongly suggests that Labour decision was not in the best interests of those electorate MPs constituents

      • MrSmith 12.3.4

        Please……. Millsy, Timberlands West Coast? You have got to be fuckin joking, these lot, ‘TWC’, set the coast back decades, they’re still chanting ‘save a whale harpoon a Greenie’ on the coast, due to hundreds of thousands of Tax payers dollars being spent by this rouge Government owned SOE on a propaganda campaign in the late 1990’s .

    • Skinny 12.4

      Give the Tories an inch they will clean out the whole national park!

  12. Sable 14

    Anyone wonder why the worlds MSM ins such crap. Take a look at this:

    http://rt.com/usa/168704-russell-brand-fox-news/

    Now back to work….

  13. dv 15

    Will the NATS declare the cost of the book launch in their donations return?

    • Kiwiri 15.1

      Make a trip to the bookshops, grab several copies and discretely re-shelve them at the appropriate sections, eg
      – Fiction
      – Fantasy
      – Crime

      • greywarbler 15.1.1

        @kiwiri lol

        • Kiwiri 15.1.1.1

          And if your local public libraries spend your precious rates on the rubbish by roughan, then re-shelve it to a more appropriate and deserving section, as suggested above.

    • Te Reo Putake 15.2

      Let the piss taking begin:

      http://www.trademe.co.nz/746833501#qna

    • blue leopard 15.3

      I thought Armstrong could dedicate his book to Key in the following manner:

      Love letters straight from my heart
      Keep us so near while apart
      I’m not alone in the night
      When I can have all the love I write

      I memorize every line
      And I kiss the name that you sign
      And darling, then I read again right from the start
      Love letters straight from my heart

      Heyman/Young’s song with slight adjustments (@ line 1,4 & 8)

  14. felix 16

    Yesterday Sean Plunkett’s call-in topic was “why does everyone like John Key?”

    Today, for balance, it was “why does no-one like Labour?”

    🙄

    Our media are a pack of trolls.

    • blue leopard 16.1

      +1 Felix

    • Martin 16.2

      well cunliffe does sit at below 10% as preferred PM
      well labour is going down quick.
      what about all loggers that need work that labour doesnt want to give work too.
      WHo do they represent now? the breaurecrats? and thus is that why Robertsons next in line

      • weka 16.2.1

        Non-random sampling of 1000 people doesn’t reflect all of NZ.

        Beyond that, journalists are supposed to investigate and report the news, not lead public opinion because they think they’re being clever dicks.

      • felix 16.2.2

        Martin, neutral questions would be something like:

        What do you think of Key? What do you think of Labour?

        Plunkett asked:

        Why does everyone like Key? Why does no-one like Labour?

        Do you see the difference?

  15. greywarbler 17

    There have to be a lot of warnings advising people of the danger of letting the present political system jerk on. I was thinking about Cassandra and warnings and looked up wikipedia – for those who don’t know all about her.

    also known as Alexandra or Kassandra, was the daughter of King Priam and Queen Hecuba of Troy. A common version of her story is that Apollo gave her the power of prophecy in order to seduce her, but when she refused him, he gave her the curse of never being believed.

    I hope like hell we don’t end up in her shoes or it will be hell to pay.

  16. Te Reo Putake 18

    Compare and contrast:

    “The Pike River Mine tragedy of 19 November 2010 happened on my watch as Minister of Labour,”

    “While reports from the former Department of Labour did not advise me of concerns about their ability to administer the health and safety legislation, 29 men lost their lives in this tragedy.

    “I feel it is the right and honourable thing to do.”

    Kate Wilkinson, announcing her resignation.

    He’s arguably applied the same principles to his politics, revealing in the biography he fired former Ministers Kate Wilkinson and Phil Heatley, for “nothing much in particular”.

    Of Wilkinson’s exit interview, Key said: “[I said] ‘Look, you’ve done a great job as a minister, but it’s over.’ She said, ‘What have I done wrong?’ I said, ‘Nothing. You have done four years and I want to refresh.’ I said the same thing to Phil.”

    John Key quoted in John Roughan’s hackiography.

    So, who’s lying? Was it a resignation or a firing? Was it for Pike River or for nothing much in particular?

  17. yeshe 19

    where is blip these days ?? thx.

  18. dimebag russell 20

    dear john.
    how I hate to write…
    dear john.
    I am leaving you tonight…

    • greywarbler 20.1

      I remember that ad. It won an ward for creativity for NZ. (Using an old popular song.)

  19. fisiani 21

    TV1 poll on Sunday. Don’t worry. All the other polls are wrong. The Cunliffe promised he would take Labour to over 40% You can trust him. He has a not so secret trust. He is popular with at least 9% ie 1 in 11.

    • Bearded Git 21.1

      fis-31+11+7=49=Cunliffe. IMP have 1.8% and they haven’t even started yet. Key knows he is staring down the barrel…..

    • Te Reo Putake 21.2

      Where did Cunliffe promise that? That’s twice you’ve made that claim, so no doubt you’ll be able to substantiate it.

    • Chooky 21.3

      …there should be a poll on whether people believe in polls…even the National Party seems to be unbelieving in the accuracy of the recent polls…..judging from National Party comments recently on radionz….

      ….eg do people answer polls honestly?( many people I suspect deliberately lie)
      …sampling?….how many people refuse to answer polls ( i am one)
      …poll bias? …( seems like the Herald polls are biased consistently in favour of Nact)
      …seems like Winnie and NZF often do not register in pre-election polls…yet on the day , romp in!

      Bugger the Polls!

  20. dimebag russell 22

    what does that mean?
    speak english.

  21. North 23

    Good to see this result. It was appalling hearing the school’s board of trustees’ spokesperson cast it all in terms of this boy’s defiance of the “rules”. Like the rule he defied wasn’t fucking stupid or anything in terms of the measure of his transgression. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/10207087/Lucan-Battison-wins-long-hair-court-battle

    • greywarbler 23.1

      @North
      I just looked up the images for the hair-do or rather don’t. What is the school moaning about. Every now and then I express doubts that the sort of schools that NZ politicians go to are in some sort of constipated British time warp and here is proof.

      The spokespersons made the point that in school rules hair had to be off the collar and tied back, and Lucan’s was and looked fine. The poor little scaredy conformists running the school can’t cope with a break in their corset of time, such as long hair on a male tied back neatly. Can you believe it in the 21st century?

  22. Kiwiri 24

    So John Key will also be giving a keynote address this Sunday, on the same day as David Cunliffe?

    Source – from THAT rag:

    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/key-signals-tax-cut-election-pledge-6013521

    And John Key will be announcing a tax cut in coming weeks?

    • lprent 24.1

      I thought Cunliffe was a week later?

      • Kiwiri 24.1.1

        You are correct.
        I have got my weeks mixed up!
        I need to step away from the keyboard. Will drop by a few bookshops to check out a particular printed trash …..

        • greywarbler 24.1.1.1

          I think the Warehouse has got it for $34. You can’t miss the Key visage, with its come hither and vote for me, me me me me me stare, hypnotic………….

    • amirite 24.2

      “And John Key will be announcing a tax cut in coming weeks?”

      He said today it will be announced later in the election campaign. What he won’t say aloud, it’s that he’ll raise GST again to pay for the tax cuts.

  23. freedom 25

    Without the left wing bloggers this entire cauldron of conspiracy would have become a last supper for NZ. Thank you to every single author and commenter and contributor of research who did what they could to allow reality to drop some roots of truth into the stone soup being thrown at our begging bowls.

    The Standard, No Right Turn, Imperatorfish, Polity, Andrew Geddis, TDB, Frankly Speaking, (and apologies to all those I missed) but you all, piece by piece, motivated the authors and their readers to speak up.

    Let’s keep that voice shouting loud and proud for the next few months shall we!

  24. yeshe 26

    so mccully steps down/out and let’s CrayCray through ( maybe) .. so what would happen if Winston were to stand in ECB after National withdraws ?? Could he win it do you think ?

  25. Draco T Bastard 27

    United future promises to make getting an education even harder:

    We propose a zero-fees policy for tertiary education in New Zealand in place of Student Allowances

    Unite Future must know that:

    1. The borrowing for fees is the least between the two
    2. That it’s impossible to live on the maximum allowed to be borrowed for living costs

    So the only conclusion is that they want less educated people – Just like National.

  26. fisiani 28

    Oh Ye of little faith. Invest $100 on ipredict on Cunliffe as PM and turn it into $1000 on September 20th. If you can do the arithmetic and come up with neck and neck then you must agree this is a golden opportunity to increase your investment 10 fold.

    • Te Reo Putake 28.1

      Hey, fisi, you may have missed the bit where I asked you to substantiate your repeated claim that Cunliffe promised Labour would get over 40%. I’d really hate to think you’re just bullshitting, so cite, please.

      • phillip ure 28.1.1

        just keep calling the lying bastard out on that one..

        ..he comes here and spouts lie after lie..

        ..i will volunteer to help with fisi-watch..

      • fisiani 28.1.2

        http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/labours-flight-from-reality.html

        Read it carefully he alludes to Cunliffes whacky optimism of 40%+

        • Te Reo Putake 28.1.2.1

          “Read it carefully he alludes to Cunliffes whacky optimism of 40%+”

          Can you point out where Trotter says this? And can I point out that Trotter isn’t Cunliffe?

          Alternatively, you could just withdraw your claim and apologise for making shit up.

          • fisiani 28.1.2.1.1

            I knew you couldn’t read

            I am concentrating on Labour’s putative numbers because they form the basis for David Cunliffe’s increasingly wacky optimism.

            Now Read the section above talking about 40%+

            • McFlock 28.1.2.1.1.1

              How does Trotter extrapolating from a 30-year old coincidence between party membership and electoral outcome relate to your explicit claim:

              The Cunliffe promised he would take Labour to over 40%

              It doesn’t. You’re lying AGAIN, fisi haw-haw

              • fisiani

                I am quoting Trotter commenting on a pledge by The Cunliffe to get Labour over 40%. You can call Trotter whatever you want but I am always truthful.

                • McFlock

                  Nah, you’re a liar.

                  In that article you linked to, Trotter never said anything close to suggesting that Cunliffe promised 40+%.

                  You’re just a low-down dirty wank-merchant.

                • fisiani

                  I was also right saying that Cunliffe has a 10c chance of winning on ipredict. Some optimists have ploughed in and the price is now 17c. Mugs , I can now short for 83c rather than have to fork out 90c.

                  • McFlock

                    your use of the word “also” is misleading, given that you lied about 40%

                    • fisiani

                      Are you blind? Go back and read Trotter’s blog. Join the dots….
                      Or are you saying that Cunliffe has never thought or said that Labour would reach 40%?

                    • McFlock

                      read it three times.
                      Perhaps you could paste the sentence trotter wrote that you think reflects your extremely clear and specific claim?

                      Well, you could if you weren’t lying from word one.

                    • felix

                      So to recap:

                      1. fisiani claimed that a politician said a specific thing
                      2. he was asked for a reference
                      3. he was asked again
                      4. he supplied a link to a blog which did not contain such a reference
                      5. he was asked to quote the reference from his link
                      6. he declined 3 times

                      His original claim “Cunliffe promised he would take Labour to over 40%” has now become “Join the dots…”

                      and yet he still has not resiled from his claim.

                      I’m sure I’ve seen people banned for this shit before.

            • BM 28.1.2.1.1.2

              Cunliffe has cracked under the pressure.

              Don’t be surprised if he turns up to parliament in the buff.

              • Colonial Viper

                Labour on 40% the next day.

              • McFlock

                nah, it’s fisi who’s finally gone around the bend.

              • greywarbler

                Poor BM – we have driven him mad with our incessant requests for facts and figures- Now he is so confused he is thinking of figures as bodies and talking about being in the buff. They will probably be coming in white coats for him soon.

  27. joe90 29

    Nick Hanauer – I see pitchforks.

    .

    But let’s speak frankly to each other. I’m not the smartest guy you’ve ever met, or the hardest-working. I was a mediocre student. I’m not technical at all—I can’t write a word of code. What sets me apart, I think, is a tolerance for risk and an intuition about what will happen in the future. Seeing where things are headed is the essence of entrepreneurship. And what do I see in our future now?

    I see pitchforks.

    At the same time that people like you and me are thriving beyond the dreams of any plutocrats in history, the rest of the country—the 99.99 percent—is lagging far behind. The divide between the haves and have-nots is getting worse really, really fast. In 1980, the top 1 percent controlled about 8 percent of U.S. national income. The bottom 50 percent shared about 18 percent. Today the top 1 percent share about 20 percent; the bottom 50 percent, just 12 percent.

    But the problem isn’t that we have inequality. Some inequality is intrinsic to any high-functioning capitalist economy. The problem is that inequality is at historically high levels and getting worse every day. Our country is rapidly becoming less a capitalist society and more a feudal society. Unless our policies change dramatically, the middle class will disappear, and we will be back to late 18th-century France. Before the revolution.

    And so I have a message for my fellow filthy rich, for all of us who live in our gated bubble worlds: Wake up, people. It won’t last.

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014.htm

    • greywarbler 29.1

      Thanks for something joe90
      He is succinct. How can I keep ignoring such a strong message? Eventually it is going to seep through. Uncomfortable.

    • Tautoko Viper 29.2

      This is a great article which deserves to be widely read.

  28. Ronnie Chow 30

    In the trade unions, the Communists, of course, submit to the discipline of the party, no matter what posts they occupy. This does not exclude but presupposes their submission to trade union discipline. In other words, the party does not impose upon them any line of conduct that contradicts the state of mind or the opinions of the majority of the members of trade unions.

  29. Draco T Bastard 31

    The Onion nails it:

    Billions worldwide agreed that, by this point in human civilization, they would have expected a better process than entrusting all their political, commercial, and social decisions to vindictive, self-absorbed fuckers.

    • greywarbler 31.1

      Onion good. Thoughtful end of piece about who should be our leaders –
      When pressed for further comment, however, every member of humanity agreed that the current system, though deeply flawed, remains far better than one in which they actually have to make decisions for themselves

      and an apparent piece of real whimsy –
      ‘Beard husks on sidewalk indicate start of Hipster Moulting Season.’

  30. Tautoko Viper 32

    After the Liu fiasco of the last couple of weeks, I feel like listening to some rousing protest songs.
    Thanks Xtasy for this morning’s offering

    Any ideas out there?

    • bob dylan..doing masters of war..live..@ carnegie hall in 1963..

      (his intro is priceless/potent..)

      ..and we should dedicate it to that killer.. obama..

      ..and his ever-eager wingman/satrap..key…

      • Tautoko Viper 32.1.1

        Thanks, Phillip. I hadn’t seen it before and it inspired me to email JK and send him the RECOMMENDATIONS AND REPORT OF THE TASK FORCE ON
        US DRONE POLICY
        http://www.stimson.org/images/uploads/task_force_report_final_web_062414.pdf

        There was an interesting post on Common Dreams titled
        “Military Experts: Killer Drones Will Trigger ‘Slippery Slope’ into Endless War

        The use of drones as a ‘pillar’ of military policy raises significant strategic, legal and ethical questions, warns a high-level panel of military and foreign policy experts.” https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/06/26-3
        This post was written as a result of the report that I forwarded to JK.

        I hate the fact that our country is being associated with those disgusting weapons because JK wants to be close buddies with Obama. I pointed out that being a drone buddy is not going to be a good look on our UN council CV.

      • phillip ure 32.1.2

        so..all those drone-killings targeted from waihopai..

        ..means the blood of all those innocent-of-anything civilians/men/women/children is on keys’ hands..

        ..(i hope he has strong soap/disinfectant/dream-suppressors..he won’t get away with that one..)

        ..and he is doing it all..in our name..as our ‘leader’..

        ..will cunnliffe do any different..?

        ..or will he still allow the americans to use waihopai to help target their drone-strikes..?

        ..and will green-ministers be in cabinet-solidarity with that..?

        ..whoar..!

        ..eh..?

        ..what price that bmw..?

  31. karol 33

    LOL @ Campbell Live.

    “Come on down, Mr Liu”

    • ianmac 33.1

      I have emailed John Campbell some details since he was looking for Mr Liu.
      See my post over on “The people respond to the Herald Editorial on Donghua Liu” @15.

  32. weka 34

    I like this graphic of what enrolled voters actually did at the last election, including those that didn’t vote. Puts things in perspective.

    https://twitter.com/kimi_collins/status/482310318870102016/photo/1

    • BM 34.1

      Nice pie chart, what does it tell us?

      • Draco T Bastard 34.1.1

        Well, so far it’s told us that you’re incapable of understanding pie charts.

        • BM 34.1.1.1

          Knock me out with your big brain there boyo, and explain to me what this pie graph is telling us.
          I get it that 34% of people who enrolled didn’t get around to voting, that’s fairly obvious, but what else are we supposed to glean from this pie chart?

          • felix 34.1.1.1.1

            I genuinely, honestly would not expect that you would glean anything from it.

  33. Draco T Bastard 35

    Why you don’t have an awesome microwve aka, patents stopping innovation again.

  34. karol 36

    From the Forbidden Bookshelf, “Lords of Creation” written in 1930s.

    In the decades following the Civil War, America entered an era of unprecedented corporate expansion, with ultimate financial power in the hands of a few wealthy industrialists who exploited the capitalist system for everything it was worth. The Rockefellers, Fords, Morgans, and Vanderbilts were the “lords of creation” who, along with like-minded magnates, controlled the economic destiny of the country, unrestrained by regulations or moral imperatives. Through a combination of foresight, ingenuity, ruthlessness, and greed, America’s giants of industry remolded the US economy in their own preferred image. In so doing, they established their absolute power and authority, ensuring that they—and they alone—would control the means of production, transportation, energy, and commerce—thereby setting the stage for the most devastating global financial collapse in history.

    It’s worth reading the intro to the latest publication of this book on google books – it compares the similarities with and differences from the US in the late 20th – early 21st century.

  35. Jenny 37

    Two, and now possibly three, Australian Prime Ministers under pressure from the fossil fuel lobby, have promised to repeal the carbon tax failed to do so. Gillard and Rudd failed to live up to their promise to fossil fuel lobby. I predicted some time ago that Tony Abbot would also not find it so easy to give them what they want.

    So is it Tony’ Abbot’s turn to disappoint the polluters?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11283466

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