Open mike 27/11/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 27th, 2013 - 161 comments
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161 comments on “Open mike 27/11/2013 ”

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  1. phillip ure 1
    27 November 2013 at 6:59 am

    tvone breakfast spreading lies about cannabis..again/still..

    ..(astounding logic:..because people don’t present for ‘treatment’ for cannabis use..this means there is a problem..)w.t.f..!..)

    ..lying bastards..!

    ..and that mindless-muppet compere just plays/nods along..

    phillip ure

    • Rogue Trooper 1.1
      27 November 2013 at 12:10 pm

      “debate” (not) was acted out on Seven Sharp night before. Hands Up, baby hands up, those who have died suddenly or violently from cannabis use…

    • North 1.2
      27 November 2013 at 10:10 pm

      I’d be immensely surprised if those TV types haven’t all been into the old dak more or less at some stage, if not still. I know/have known a number of them and the answer is “Yes !”. That’s not to say anything other than this……..our betters in the middle classes are right into it. Which then is to say that it’s not a big fat deal anyway. Wonder if the ShonKey’s ever swayed off to bed laffing ?

  2. Paul 2
    27 November 2013 at 7:23 am

    This is what happens when you sell a country’s assets to foreign corporations.
    How much reminding do we need?
    The last sentence I quoted is the most telling..
    The neoliberal traitors who sold and are selling this country need to be tried for treason.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11163233

    “The foreign owners’ agenda has eclipsed the rights and interests of the New Zealand taxpayer and workforce, this is not a sustainable forest policy.”

    New Zealand exported a record 3 million cubic metres of logs to China in the September quarter, a 40 per cent increase on the same period a year earlier and log prices approached record highs during the period.

    Jon Tanner, chief executive of the Wood Processors’ Association, said the increasing proportion of the wood harvest being exported as raw logs was “getting to be quite a serious situation”.

    “We’re really just becoming a plantation for other countries’ interests.”

    • LynWiper 2.1
      27 November 2013 at 8:26 am

      Thanks Paul +100
      This is very disturbing. And our assets, most vulnerably those that supply the essential service of power, continue to be sold!

      • Ake ake ake 2.1.1
        27 November 2013 at 11:50 am

        And not that difficult to see the way our deep sea oil assets will end up!
        And we will also end up bearing the costs and losses in relation to environmental disasters.
        Wake up New Zealand!

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2
      27 November 2013 at 12:04 pm

      There’s two points to be made from that article:

      1.) Foreign ownership is bad for NZ as it caters only to the desires of the foreign owners
      2.) Exporting raw resources is bad for NZ as it prevents development of our own economy

      New Zealand exported a record 3 million cubic metres of logs to China in the September quarter, a 40 per cent increase on the same period a year earlier and log prices approached record highs during the period.

      How many houses could that have made?

    • Rogue Trooper 2.3
      27 November 2013 at 12:12 pm

      a ‘nana plantation.

  3. LynWiper 3
    27 November 2013 at 8:37 am

    I am not a catholic but this made interesting reading. One comment ” “How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?” is something I often wonder myself .

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/9447074/Pope-attacks-killer-economy

    Pope Francis has attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny” as he beseeched global leaders to fight poverty and growing inequality, in a document setting out a platform for his papacy and calling for a renewal of the Catholic Church.

    In it, economic inequality features as one of the issues Francis is most concerned about, and the 76-year-old pontiff calls for an overhaul of the financial system and warns that unequal distribution of wealth inevitably leads to violence.

    How will this be received?

    • KJT 3.1
      27 November 2013 at 8:46 am

      Like this Pope. 🙂

    • Ennui 3.2
      27 November 2013 at 8:56 am

      Francis is a ray of light in the worlds oldest longest lasting institution. The longevity of the church may be down to it being ultra conservative but it does have a history of accommodating the times, albeit reluctantly. I laughed at the comments on this column when he was announced, damning the RC church for what it is (i.e not liberal and leftist, and perhaps quite reactionary). What the hell did we expect?

      Consequently, Francis appeal to the church to become pastoral and his moves to redirect / reform the RC church appear rather remarkable. Who has noted his canvassing the laity on issues of homosexuality, divorce etc? The whole idea that orthodoxy can be challenged is quite amazing. He appears to me more open and accepting than the doctrinaire Lefties over here.

      PS I am neither religious, nor an RC.

      • greywarbler 3.2.1
        27 November 2013 at 9:14 am

        Ennui
        I think it is a bold move and one to be congratulated. He had better watch his back. There are people in sinecures in the Vatican in the country that bred Machiavelli and his cynical observations of practices there.

    • Colonial Viper 3.3
      27 November 2013 at 9:30 am

      And remember…Cardinals from around the world decided it was time for Francis…

      Francis is a ray of light in the worlds oldest longest lasting institution. The longevity of the church may be down to it being ultra conservative but it does have a history of accommodating the times, albeit reluctantly.

      I’m fairly confident that the Catholic Church will long outlast all the left wing political parties and activist groups of today.

      • Ake ake ake 3.3.1
        27 November 2013 at 12:33 pm

        Follow the money.

        The Pope, as King/President/Prime Minister equivalent, and all in one, of the Catholic Church is getting more concerned about the financial assets, investments and wealth of the Catholic Church increasingly being raided by the bankster class.

        Once upon a time, the Church could rely on a positive monetary feedback loop into the Vatican’s coffers, but now no longer with the banksters in charge and growing stronger.

        People shouldn’t think that the Pope is speaking out against the current system on moral, let alone, religious grounds and definitely not the public/common people’s interest.

        🙂

        • Ennui 3.3.1.1
          27 November 2013 at 1:06 pm

          You may be right BUT to quote Darth Vader “I find your lack of faith disturbing”.

          My take is that this Pope is both a Franciscan and a Jesuit…neither of which paths lead toward the money. In the words of Francis of Assisi…”I have come to rebuild a church”.

          • Rogue Trooper 3.3.1.1.1
            27 November 2013 at 1:09 pm

            hee hee, love it!

          • LynWiper 3.3.1.1.2
            27 November 2013 at 4:06 pm

            Well said Ennui. I hope your take is right. The world needs more genuine, caring leadership and the Pope is in a very powerful position. I never thought I’d be aware of any of his teachings and here we are discusing his statements. Time will tell.

        • Foreign Waka 3.3.1.2
          27 November 2013 at 6:50 pm

          This pope also argues for a vow of poverty for the church – this now doubt will not go well down for some. Another succession in the making?

    • fender 3.4
      27 November 2013 at 9:31 am

      I’m expecting (sadly) Pope Francis will be assassinated before too long.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.5
      27 November 2013 at 12:42 pm

      Pope Francis has attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny”

      Nothing new about it at all. We saw the same tyranny in Ancient Rome and Greece, we saw it under feudalism in Europe and Britain and now we’re seeing it again as a few people gather all the wealth and power to themselves.

      No, nothing new about it – it was inevitable and always will be under hierarchical systems that hold private ownership of the commons as its saviour.

    • Pete 3.6
      27 November 2013 at 1:02 pm

      54. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase; and in the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.

      Good stuff.

      The whole encyclical is here. As a Catholic, I like this pope.

  4. Rosie 4
    27 November 2013 at 8:43 am

    Booze culture

    Seen on the New World festive season opening hours signage yesterday

    “Wednesday, 1st January, 2014 Open for all your hangover needs!”

    Er, nice community message there NW

    Maybe bear this is mind in regard to those hungover drivers you are inviting into your store

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/9445531/Hungover-motorists-as-risky-as-driving-drunk

    Not to mention that earlier this year a drunk driver took out a fence and part of a house at 11am one Sunday, just a few doors down from the supermarket.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1
      27 November 2013 at 8:49 am

      Plus: workers, if you think you were going to have a nice New years eve and new years day holiday – too bad!!!

      • Rosie 4.1.1
        27 November 2013 at 9:31 am

        From what I’ve observed, supermarkets have been opening on New Years Day in the last few years, where as previously they didn’t, so yes, one less day that their workers get to enjoy the festive time with friends and family, or any social time – with only three and half days of the year where they are guaranteed a holiday day!

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1
          27 November 2013 at 9:54 am

          Yep it’s crap. A guaranteed half day holiday and double time for the rest of it should be mandatory.

        • Lanthanide 4.1.1.2
          27 November 2013 at 1:12 pm

          The Warehouse always opened on New Years day since I started working there in 2001. I think the opening time might have been 9-10am instead of the usual 8:30.

          I don’t think this is a ‘new’ change.

          • Rosie 4.1.1.2.1
            27 November 2013 at 2:30 pm

            As mentioned, I had noticed New World had started opening on NY Day a few years ago, approximately ’07 but they may well have been opening on NY Day for some time. Traders, especially those that are profitable during the festive season (such as the warehouse) will chose to open this day – it’s a trend that is evolving. Meanwhile other retailers choose to stay closed because it’s not worth it for them.

            My main observation about their opening hours sign however, and without wanting to sound like a party pooper, is that they are promoting hangover products to their customers. Probably this is nothing more than a joke, but it’s a bad taste one given the harm (eg, increases domestic violence) alcohol does over Xmas and New Year.

          • lprent 4.1.1.2.2
            27 November 2013 at 3:59 pm

            When I was running the inventory at Cargo King in the very early 90’s, I’m pretty sure that we opened on new years day. We did stop for Xmas day.

            • Rosie 4.1.1.2.2.1
              27 November 2013 at 5:20 pm

              Hmm. Was that a supplier/distributor to trade only or a retail outfit? I wonder if businesses back then could open for non trade operations?

              My foggy memory is going back to that time (I was about 20) and I recall that when the Bolger govt came in retail opening hours were relaxed in conjunction it seemed with the employment contracts act coming in, and suddenly we were working all day Saturday and then on Sundays.(except I refused to work Sundays) I’m not sure what law around opening hours existed or if there was even one but I had thought, back then the NY Day public holiday was still in the same league as Xmas Day, kinda untouchable. Shops always closed on the 2nd Jan Holiday too, and now they are often open and I wonder if folks actually forget that is a public holiday.

    • Tiger Mountain 4.2
      27 November 2013 at 9:15 am

      …“forget about the last one get yourself another,”…

    • Rogue Trooper 4.3
      27 November 2013 at 12:18 pm

      that’s an informative link TRP; drop by for ‘confessions’ next time you are “driving round the bay” We can break bread…and etc 😀

    • Rogue Trooper 4.4
      27 November 2013 at 12:19 pm

      GABA GABAA Hey!

  5. greywarbler 5
    27 November 2013 at 9:09 am

    The people from Kiribati being refused residency should be allowed to stay as part of a gradual resettlement of those people here and in Australia. We know that they are under threat from rising sea levels, huge storms, and crop killing weather changes. What about the NZ Government acting responsibly in this matter. We occasionally do something fair, intelligent and responsible – this is time to repeat it if not make it the first for the year or longer?

  6. phillip ure 6
    27 November 2013 at 9:16 am

    whoar..!

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/27-animals-died-during-filming-of-hollywood-blockbuster-the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey-says-report-8965357.html

    “..Agency tasked with monitoring safety – ‘covered up injuries and deaths on movie sets’..”

    (nb..this does not include the animals killed so the cast/crew could eat them..eh..?..

    ..that number is much higher than ’27’..eh..?

    ..and did they hand the dead bodies of those animals killed on set over to the cooks..?

    ..so they could have them for lunch..?

    ..if not..why not..?)

    phillip ure

  7. idlegus 7
    27 November 2013 at 9:20 am

    russel norman on rnz this morning, who gave the gcsb dotcoms phone records? the nsa! so much for john keys reasurances… (if true, but if not nsa then who?)

    • veutoviper 7.1
      27 November 2013 at 9:41 am

      That was an excellent interview by Norman. He was very articulate and set out the situation/his views very clearly and succinctly – using logic to ask who could have given the GCSB Dotcom’s phone records and by a process of elimination, suggesting – rather than emphatically concluding – the NSA through Five Eyes.

      Here is a link to the interview for anyone interested

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2577767/greens-say-police-handled-gcsb-and-teapot-cases-differently

      On a related note, I checked the Auckland High Court lists for today. As well as the Banks judicial review at 10am before Justice Heath (in unlucky Court 13),Justice Helen Winkelmann was also holding a one hour case management conference at 9am with the legal beagles involved in the Dotcom case.

  8. Penny Bright 8
    27 November 2013 at 9:32 am

    Hi folks!

    Yesterday I attended a VERY productive workshop at the Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference – ‘How to do a fact-finding internal anti-corruption inquiry’.

    VERY relevant to the Len Brown ‘inquiry’……

    Mixing and mingling with all sorts of anti-corruption folks from a wide range of areas, (Public Sectors and geographically).

    My situation is quite unique in that I am a self-funded ‘Public Watchdog’, helping to make a difference by making a FUSS!

    ie: my role is EXTERNAL not INTERNAL – so the tactics and strategies are quite different. (Polar opposites in fact )

    A very experienced and long-serving investigator from ICAC (Independent Commission Against Corruption NSW) described me as a ‘Private Ombudsman.’

    (I met some of these ICAC and other anti-corruption folk when I attended the 2009 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Confernence in Brisbane).

    Anyway – have learned that there are now anti-corruption bodies in South Australia, Victoria and Tasmania.

    It is SO time for New Zealand to have an Independent Commission Against Corruption- tasked with preventing and investigating corruption.

    Looking forward to seeing photos of the Not-So-Honorable John Banks (un) welcoming reception outside the Auckland High Court this morning!

    Still awaiting a decision from the NZ Serious Fraud Office (SFO) re: the request for an investigation into Mayor Len Brown and Sky City for alleged bribery and corruption.

    http://www.pennybrightformayor.org.nz

    Having some fascinating discussions with all sorts of anti-corruption experts on this matter!

    Also on the failure of OFCANZ (Organised and Financial Crime Agency of NZ) to do ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the NZ International Convention City (or- as I prefer to call it – the Sky City MONEY-LAUNDERING) Act 2013.

    Still awaiting confirmation from the NZ Auditor-General that she is going to carry out an investigation into this one……

    I hope to have more discussion with anti-corruption experts who deal with money-laundering, and seek their considered opinions about the proven complete lack of ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the NZ International Convention City Act 2013, from the NZ Prime Minister John Key, Minister of Economic Developement Steven Joyce, OFCANZ, Auckland Council and Auckland Central Police….

    Presumably, at some point mainstream media may pick this one up?

    Given that, in my considered opinion, Sky City has effectively been given the go-ahead to set up a money-laundering FACTORY, in the heart of Auckland, (in NZ – ‘perceived’ to be ‘the least corrupt country in the world) – don’t you think that somebody might be a lttle bit interested?

    Have a GREAT day!

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    • veutoviper 8.1
      27 November 2013 at 9:43 am

      You are sounding very invigorated, Penny! Enjoy!

    • Rogue Trooper 8.2
      27 November 2013 at 12:32 pm

      Rifle through those Unmentionables Penny.

    • Ad 8.3
      27 November 2013 at 7:38 pm

      Not sure why we need another regulator at all.

      We are and have been for decades one of the top 3 least corrupt countries in the world.

      In NZ there are now plenty of people in jail and disgraced due to the Securities Commission, Serious Fraud Office, Audit NZ etc and plenty of corporates and local governments wrinsed out through the Audit Office.

      Try your hand at the Solomon Islands, Fiji, Cook Islands, Samoa, Tonga, or indeed any country in the pacific with an actual world-ranking problem in corruption.

    • weka 9.1
      27 November 2013 at 10:24 am

      He wants to challenge the leadership 6 months out from a General Election? If that is true, he shouldn’t even be on the party list.

      Would like to see more information to make sure the zb report is correct.

    • karol 9.2
      27 November 2013 at 10:42 am

      It’s reported on Stuff, too.

      i was just trying to find out David Hay’s background. I’m not sure if there are more than one of him in Auckland?

      This is what the Green Party site says about him.

      So I guess this ex-Auckland Cits&Rats deputy mayor is not him?

      He’s definitely not the professor of auditing at Auckland Uni.

      I’ve never been totally into Norman as Green co-leader. So far, I can’t see anything about Hay to think he’d be an improvement on Norman.

      • Bill 9.2.1
        27 November 2013 at 11:02 am

        Having read the links you’ve provided, I can’t see what the flap is. So, he wants to test the waters to see if there’s any appetite for a shift in Green Party focus next June. Big deal. There may be a vote that indicates a desire for a shift, or they may not be. And I guess the Party then responds accordingly.

        • karol 9.2.1.1
          27 November 2013 at 11:06 am

          Agreed, Bill. From what I have briefly found about the challenger, my conclusion is Norman will have his co-leadership confirmed.

          • weka 9.2.1.1.1
            27 November 2013 at 11:24 am

            True, but I was thinking more of what the MSM will do*, and the resources it will take from the election campaign.

            * re the instability of the GP having a leadership challenge that close to the election, plus the MSM having a field day with the anti-growth economics. On the other hand, when Norman gets re-elected as leader, maybe it sends the message that the GP aren’t dangerous kooks after all, Norman is so reasonable!, so more people will vote for them.

        • weka 9.2.1.2
          27 November 2013 at 11:15 am

          But why do that going into an election? It doesn’t really make sense.

          “So, he wants to test the waters to see if there’s any appetite for a shift in Green Party focus next June.”

          I think it’s an actual leadership vote, not just testing the waters for a shift in focus.

          • weka 9.2.1.2.1
            27 November 2013 at 11:18 am

            Can’t really fault his politics.

            “Humanity has overshot the capacity of Earth’s ecosystem to sustain our long-term existence. We must do whatever we can to address that issue. Our immediate priority must be the rapid de-carbonisation of our energy system. Ultimately we must “de-grow” the economic system and share society’s resources more equitably.”

            but still don’t understand the timing of the challenge. If he wants to move the GP in that direction, wouldn’t it make more sense to go through the election with the best chance of gaining the most seats and the best deal with Labour, and then challenge later?

            • karol 9.2.1.2.1.1
              27 November 2013 at 11:21 am

              Some are tweeting that Hay is trying to improve his list chances/place.

            • gobsmacked 9.2.1.2.1.2
              27 November 2013 at 11:25 am

              A cynic might suggest that “Co-leader re-elected in landslide” would be a useful headline in election year, accompanied by the opinion piece: “Moderate Greens in control, eye Treasury benches”.

              Of course I am not that cynic … 😉

          • Bill 9.2.1.2.2
            27 November 2013 at 11:27 am

            Well, let’s say (just for the sake of argument) that he wants degrowth and Green Party penetration in S. Auckland to be serious discussion points as opposed to a leadership position. Isn’t this a good way to ensure that? Breaks through any smash that might sit in the Green Party structure when it comes to generating discussion or elevating topics.

            • weka 9.2.1.2.2.1
              27 November 2013 at 11:35 am

              As in, the conservative element of the GP is getting too entrenched, therefore something radical needs to be done to keep the party in the right direction? I would have thought that the membership could still bring up serious discussion points, it’s a worry if that’s no longer true.

              And if your point is right, then how to assess the risks, and whether the timing is useful for the overall strategy? The GP has a history of either fucking up at election time (corn gate), or just not doing that well, or being undermined by the MSM, so I’m a bit nervous about things that rock the boat in that time period.

              • Bill …
                27 November 2013 at 11:47 am

                I know next to nothing about internal Green Party structures and how easy it is for membership to generate traction/discussion on particular issues. I’m just putting it out there as a possibility.

                Also (and this is a personal perspective) I can’t remember seeing degrowth mentioned by politicians before and New Zealand, as opposed to just the Green Party, desperately needs that discussion. So if the media jump on this non-challenge next June, then the Greens can demonstrate that they are not afraid of democracy (a leadership vote) as well as underscore Norman’s leadership and a bloody serious issue that everyone has shied away from might get some oxygen.

                But maybe I’m just being oddly positive today 😉

                • karol …
                  27 November 2013 at 12:18 pm

                  Good point, Bill. It’ll be interesting to see how much of an airing “de-growth” gets during the co-leadership contest, and the Greens’ conference next year.

                • weka …
                  27 November 2013 at 3:31 pm

                  “But maybe I’m just being oddly positive today 😉 ”

                  Crikey 😉

                  Me on the other hand… I suppose I see potential for all sorts of problems. What if the degrowth conversation sparks a great controversy within the GP (as it should) and the MSM go beserk? Do we want that happening at that time?

                  I suppose I need to understand more about the man himself and where he is coming from.

              • phillip ure …
                27 November 2013 at 5:12 pm

                “..it’s a worry if that’s no longer true..”

                ..it never was true weka..

                top-down/central-command..

                (which can be argued for or against..)

                ..it has always been thus..

                ..and if hay is doing what bill surmises..well and good..

                ..but isn’t hay from the right/free-market-solutions wing of the greens..?

                ..(once again..can be argued for or against..i’m all for a mix..me..)

                ..as in..essentially more right than norman..?

                ..just saying/asking..!

                ..(mind you..norman is pretty gung-ho on the continuation of the animal-concentration-camps/charnal-houses..still sees a future for nz based on the blood/suffering of animals..

                ..and his co-leader has a penchant for strutting around wrapped in shining/glistening dead-animal skins..)

                ..they are both hardly ‘deep/dark’-green..

                ..and of course as the consequences of our past/current polluting actions become more and more apparent..a much more ‘radical’ green party/thought/ideas/prescriptions will be called for..

                ..but norman seems to be the person for this particular moment in the green party arc….

                phillip ure..

        • Foreign Waka 9.2.1.3
          27 November 2013 at 6:57 pm

          Sounds to me like cold feet – Labour and Greens could win? Well, this is like a bit of chicken dance, lets just withdraw a bit here its getting scary… if there is any more of this I am sure we will have a third term of Nats – absolutely sure to be exact.

      • Colonial Viper 9.2.2
        27 November 2013 at 11:06 am

        It appears that he has been a local body policy staffer previously, not a politician.

      • bad12 9.2.3
        27 November 2013 at 12:27 pm

        David Hay, a political analysist works for the Auckland City Council, he contested the Rodney electorate seat for the Green Party in 2008 and the Epsom seat for the same party in 2011,

        There were enough ‘votes’ in the Epsom electorate between Hay and Labour’s David Parker to have, if those 2 had of convinced voters to vote for the National candidate, kept John Banks out of the Parliament,

        The Green Party did tho pick up a very healthy 4,424 Party votes from Epsom up from 2,662 in 2008 when Keith Locke contested the seat,

        Rodney, where Hay stood in 2008 gaining 1,969 party votes recorded 3,265 party votes for the Green Party in 2011 so the ‘Green-swing’ is more likely to be party centric rather than based around any particular candidate,(as it should be),

        i see it as entirely healthy for the Green Party to have ‘leadership challengers’ appear at any AGM while hoping that this is only a small part of the gathering and would much rather be pushing my barrow of having the Green Party put far more effort into ‘farming’ the growing Green vote from within safe National held seats,(every vote from there is worth 2 votes when it comes to counting up the Party Votes),

        Dr Norman who it took me a while to warm to has certainly in the past 18 months come into His own in the political arena seriously spanking Slippery’s Ministers on a number of occasions and i don’t really see a threat in David Hay’s challenge…

        • greywarbler 9.2.3.1
          27 November 2013 at 1:44 pm

          bad12
          Thanks for background on Hay.

          • bad12 9.2.3.1.1
            27 November 2013 at 2:24 pm

            Welcome, what has worried me for a while about the Green Party is as it has grown a very healthy amount of it’s vote is coming from amidst the ‘middle class’, i find this a bit of a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation for a party with one of it’s arms firmly mired in ‘Social Justice’ with my underlying suspicion that sooner or later with the lure of increasing that ‘middle class’ vote ‘Social Justice’ may within the party die a quiet and unheralded death,

            Perhaps this is the first attempt from within the Green Party membership for that ‘middle class’ to wield it’s political muscle,(and not knowing David Hay personally my apologies for any unintended slur),

            What the upward numbers tho do allow some of us to do is migrate our votes to the Mana Party in an attempt to bolster that parties number in the House, a final decision i will leave for the months around November 2014 when the polling will be furiously delivering us ‘political junkies’ numbers by the day,

            i wonder how much analysis by Party strategists in both the Labour and Green Parties has been applied to the Epsom 2011 result where the train wreckage strewn across the New Zealand landscape might have at the least been lessened had both parties cooperated to invite their voters to hold their noses and vote for the National candidate in order to shut Banks out of the Parliament,

            Hopefully, with hindsight, both parties have learned a valuable lesson from Epsom 2011 and are prepared to cooperate within whatever electorate Colon Craig stands to gain the National party candidate as many votes as possible so as to shut that loose wheel out…

            • Tracey 9.2.3.1.1.1
              27 November 2013 at 2:34 pm

              is he related to Keith Hay (would be his grandson) and David Hay (his father)? I ask because both of those guys were quite christian in their views and impositions on night classes at Mt Roskill Grammar (no yoga for example)

        • Foreign Waka 9.2.3.2
          27 November 2013 at 7:04 pm

          Dream a little longer and it will be Nats having the next election. The pols do not look THAT good to play a bit around. People are looking for certainty and know what to expect, getting familiar with the candidates. Dr Russel is highly capable but he is not a mongrel and if that is a problem I for one will not vote at all.

        • Ad 9.2.3.3
          27 November 2013 at 7:43 pm

          Helpful

  10. phillip ure 10
    27 November 2013 at 9:38 am

    (this one is for the comedy-heretic who yesterday claimed that ‘family guy ‘is not funny’..(i know..!..i know..!..)..

    ..it’s a collection of brian best-of vid-clips..

    ..fill yer boots..!..eh..?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/video-after-brian-griffin-dies-family-guy-dogs-best-moments-8964448.html

    phillip ure..

  11. greywarbler 11
    27 November 2013 at 9:40 am

    The Commonwealth Games are to be held in Glasgow next year I think. I was just thinking about the Brit-Yank club and who heads those respective countries. Republic or Monarchy thoughts. When thinking of the Monarchy I have a picture of someone with dignity and respect for the elevated position that Royalty has and that this holder of the position has shown all her life.
    (Apparently Buckingham Palace was hired out for many millions for the venue of some rich guy’s
    event! Or was that a satirical item?)

    Compare that to an elected leader from the people of Toronto. When the position is open to unseemly jockeying and fraud and all comers with sufficient dosh can buy into being top dog you can get Rob Ford. Forget how much money the Queen has (which irks many who somehow thinks this tips the argument for a republic), just look at the way the Queen represents the people in an intelligent, thoughtful and careful way. Then look at Rob Ford as buffoon leader who would never be elected as Republic leader but is of the type that would be contenders.

  12. greywarbler 12
    27 November 2013 at 10:04 am

    Qantas is appealing to the Australian government to maintain their own specialised form of free market business practice in the airlines business.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/228795/qantas-appealing-to-nationalism-against-virgin

    Qantas shouldered NZ out years ago, resulting in us feeling we had to buy Ansett to gain the feeder services we needed. Feeling being the important word here, thinking hard did not trump the feeling impulse. Now we have an interest with other airlines, in Virgin and it seems that it is good business sense to expand the business somewhat, Qantas is calling on national sentiment as a way of combatting the competition. They have been the most profitable airline in the world at times, may still be.

    I wish our government could be so supportive of our enterprises. But NZ gets gutted and thrown to the wolves. And Australians have no warm feelings when it comes to business or country to country dealings. They don’t give up their advantages without a fight. We need more teeth and attitude like Oz but it would be good if we had more integrity with it. Oz government did agree apparently, that we could have the right for Airnz to fly around Oz, or to combine with domestic airlines, then they withdrew that on Qantas advice, a country to country agreement just cancelled.
    That’s the respect they have for us – negotiable.

    • RedBaronCV 12.1
      27 November 2013 at 8:41 pm

      And now quantas can even buy a spoiler stake of Airnz shares on the share market which will be more effective with the govt share at 52% Thank you John , not.

  13. vto 13
    27 November 2013 at 10:49 am

    Why on earth is John Key getting so personally involved in the Anadarko / Greenpeace ding dong?

    Politically I would have thought it would be best to stay well away and say something like … “they are two private organisations and how they attend to their matters is their business, not the governments.”

    However, I suppose Key is tied all up with them given he gave Anadarko special legislation to suit (like Hollywoods Warner Bros), and given Key and the National Party get their money from Anadarko and Warner Bros.

    … conflicted all to hell ….

    … big business is running the new Zealand government ….

    • bad12 13.1
      27 November 2013 at 12:54 pm

      From where i sit it looks like National on the defensive with falling poll numbers have got the ‘spin-miesters’ working overtime on ‘Brand-Slippery’,

      Yesterday it was the ‘i can piss higher up the toilet wall’ challenge to David Cunliffe to openly say that as Prime Minister He,(Cunliffe), would be buying back the parts of the State Owned Assets that Slippery and Co, doing their best to imitate any seedy back-street used car salesman,(and failing), have flogged off to the 25 of wealthiest Ma’s and Pa’s in the land,

      The latest comment from He who will be out the door next November on the deep sea drilling was to start the conversation about Green-Peace and then less than subtly connect the Green Party with the protest yachts and the Court action,

      That connects with National’s core and might for a while keep the numbers above 39% but less and less of the voting public are so enamored of our Prime Minister these days you might say that Slippery can’t dance no more…

      • Rogue Trooper 13.1.1
        27 November 2013 at 1:08 pm

        I saw him con -fillate “Greens” with the Greenpeace action; slippery or what? That is one deliberate politician; self-belief ya see, belief in himself.

      • greywarbler 13.1.2
        27 November 2013 at 1:35 pm

        Talking about drilling for oil, an interesting point is about the cost of the externalities for the test drilling on land sites being borne by the ratepayers in the area, and no doubt the owners of the property on which the sites and the access roads to them.

        A USA? Mayor said that they had about 6.000? (a lot) of drilling many of which involved fracking. Fracking requires a lot of water. Water is heavy. It has to be trucked in and the load destroys roads. Big carriers on small roads mean big expense repairing, and there have been a lot of extra accidents which have resulted from this extra traffic.

        (This is without saying about how scarce water is now, and its being utilised by these rent-seeking companies.) And they are not taking responsibility for the damage caused on the roads. This is what I heard this morning on Radionz so for the facts rather than my hearsay have a listen to them.

    • Tracey 13.2
      27 November 2013 at 2:38 pm

      I heard yesterday he was leaving it to the police… like he did with the tea cup tapes, john banks and GCSB…

  14. vto 14
    27 November 2013 at 12:13 pm

    “Police had asked GCSB for help in December 2011 as they gathered evidence for a joint police-FBI raid on Dotcom’s rural Auckland home.”

    How on earth do the FBI get to undertake this sort of action in our country?

    What was the basis for their physical involvement on the ground?

    Where did the authority come from?

    • Bill 14.1
      27 November 2013 at 1:27 pm

      You only need to go and read some of the Greenwald pieces to answer your questions. The agencies can share info. So, one agency (eg, MI6) can do stuff in the US that the US agencies can’t…so requests are made, info gathered and then shared back to whoever wants it. And no laws are broken.

      • vto 14.1.1
        27 November 2013 at 5:40 pm

        Thanks Bill, but I meant the actual raid. FBI boots on the ground at a New Zealand home, not the info gathering.

        How is that legal or authorised? How does the FBI have ‘jurisdiction’ in our country?

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1
          27 November 2013 at 5:41 pm

          Observers or tactical advisors, and/or providing of specialist equipment.

          • vto 14.1.1.1.1
            27 November 2013 at 5:57 pm

            But even that is physical presence and acts of a kind. Where does the authority or legality come from?

  15. greywarbler 15
    27 November 2013 at 1:25 pm

    Australian explorer Douglas Mawson 1913 expedition to Antarctica is being remembered by a team of scientists. While people are thinking of this great mean, another should be remembered who was a prime reason for Shackleton and his team’s survival – Henry (Chippy) McNish from Glasgow, shipwright, (and his cat Mrs Chippy) . His family have been agitating for him to be remembered with a Polar Medal like most of his compatriots.

    Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_McNish says – He spent 23 years in the Navy in total during his life, but eventually secured a job with the New Zealand Shipping Company.[2] After making five trips to New Zealand he moved there in 1925, leaving behind his wife[d] and all of his carpentry tools. He worked on the waterfront in Wellington until his career was ended by an injury. Destitute, he would sleep in the wharf sheds under a tarpaulin and relied on monthly collections from the dockworkers……he worked on the docks in Wellington until poor health forced his retirement. He died destitute in the Ohiro Benevolent Home in Wellington….He was buried in Karori Cemetery, Wellington, on 26 September 1930, with full naval honours; HMS Dunedin (which happened to be in port at the time) provided twelve men for the firing party and eight bearers.

    However, his grave remained unmarked for almost thirty years;[22] the New Zealand Antarctic Society (NZAC) erected a headstone on 10 May 1959.[3] In 2001, it was reported that the grave was untended and surrounded by weeds,[28] but in 2004, the grave was tidied and a life size bronze sculpture of McNish’s beloved cat, Mrs. Chippy, was placed on his grave by NZAC. His grandson, Tom, believes this tribute would have meant more to him than receiving the Polar Medal.[22]

    But McNish’s skill and ingenuity in events which followed is still remembered. After 16 months trapped on the ice, the men set sail in the three small boats for Elephant Island. Eight days after their arrival, one of the vessels, the 20ft whale boat James Caird, struck out for South Georgia – a journey of 670 miles – with six men on board, including McNish. It was only possible because, during their time trapped on the ice, McNish worked tirelessly to ensure the seaworthiness of the escape craft.

    He had devised his own mixture of flour, oil paint and seal blood to caulk the seams of the boats, raised the gunwales to make them safer in the high seas and and fitted small decks fore and aft to the Caird. Before Shackleton, and two others, set off for the final 36 hour traverse of South Georgia’s mountain ranges, he fashioned crampons out of the boat’s two inch brass screws. “We certainly could not have lived through the voyage without it”; Shackleton wrote later of his carpenter’s efforts.

    Like Shackleton, McNish was never to recover his health fully. He returned to the Merchant Navy but suffered severe pain brought on by the months stranded at the Pole. He eventually died in Wellington Hospital in New Zealand where he was treated as a hero and given a funeral with full naval honours paid for by the New Zealand government.

    And not to forget NZ Frank Worsley who died in Surrey in 1943. Frank Arthur Worsley DSO OBE RD (22 February 1872 – 1 February 1943) was a New Zealand sailor and explorer who served on Ernest Shackleton’s Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition of 1914–1916, as captain of the Endurance. He also served in the Royal Navy Reserve during the First World War.

  16. Rogue Trooper 16
    27 November 2013 at 1:44 pm

    overlooking Sartre for a moment, here’s a Booklist
    Challenge.

  17. greywarbler 17
    27 November 2013 at 2:53 pm

    The Press had a good list of information that house sellers, particularly in Christchurch, could make available to assist buyers in decisions. Things are not as simple as they used to be anywhere in NZ so worth noting.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/your-property/9446093/Vendors-should-disclose-details

  18. greywarbler 18
    27 November 2013 at 3:16 pm

    I seem to have a lot to say today. I will eschew! the blog for rest of week.

    Ructions in Victorian Parliament OZ, over the Speaker. This could happen here. And is an indication of a weakness in the system if the various Parties are not happy with the Speaker and have no right to ask for an alternative.
    http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/news/two-suspended-dramatic-day-vic-075818098–spt.html

    The MPs said Mr Smith resembled a dictator, was a puppet for the government and his occupation of the speakership was a travesty of democracy….
    When Mr Shaw, who has previously expressed no confidence in the Speaker, left the house, Mr Smith used his casting vote to suspend Labor MP Jacinta Allan for six days – the remainder of the parliamentary year – for rowdy behaviour.
    Deputy Opposition Leader James Merlino was also suspended for six days.
    The suspensions give the government a majority in the house….
    The parliament heard Labor MPs had indicated they would support deputy speaker Christine Fyffe being installed as Speaker.
    But Premier Denis Napthine expressed his support for the Speaker saying he had shown tremendous patience amid an organised stunt by the opposition.

  19. amirite 19
    27 November 2013 at 3:24 pm

    I have a dreadful feeling that the dirty rat Epsom MP will be let off free again, no I dont have much faith in our judiciary.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11163685

  20. Anne 20
    27 November 2013 at 3:40 pm

    I’m more hopeful amirite. After all, it is the Solicitor General who is acting as Crown Prosecutor on this occasion. He carries a lot of weight. The judge will be dotting his i’s and crossing his t’s so that there’s no further claims of factual errors – no matter how irrelevant they may be to the case.

    Solicitor-General Michael Heron QC, who has taken over the case from private prosecutor Graham McCready, said any factual errors were matters to be decided at trial, and not by judicial review.

    • veutoviper 20.1
      27 November 2013 at 5:33 pm

      I am also more hopeful than amirite, Anne, having followed the case closely over the months. IMO the public interest is such that a whitewash dismissal would attract massive reaction, including from the legal beagles. Justice Gittos, the AKL District Court judge who considered it should go to trial is not the only one with this opinion. Earlier, in Nov 2012 and in April 2013, Judge Mill of the Wellington DC also appeared to consider it should, before the case was transferred to Auckland.

      If you haven’t already read it, Graeme Edgeler’s post two days ago on Public Address is worth reading for the legal ins and outs of both the case iteslf and the legal processes underway, eg the judicial review.

      http://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/qa-john-banks-judicial-review/

      I also note that both the Herald article that amirite linked to at 19, and this Stuff article have been edited since they first appeared earlier in the afternoon.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9448744/Banks-trial-decision-next-week

      The earlier Stuff article included quite a bit more detail of what happened in court, including Michael Heron stating that he would not be leading the prosecution if it went to trial, but naming the QC who would. Can’t remember the name, unfortunately.

      Another reason I think that there won’t be a whitewash dismissal of Banks’ case is the connection to the Dotcom saga.

      It was quite a day in the Auckland High Court today, with this and a case management hearing on Dotcom’s compensation case for the raid., with another hearing scheduled for two weeks’ time.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/30004775/nsa-fingered-in-dotcom-scandal

      (Another Stuff article that has been edited since it first appeared earlier today in both cases, probably to protect them – the newspapers – legally.)

      • veutoviper 20.1.1
        27 November 2013 at 5:48 pm

        And this TV3 News item gives more detail of the line Heron took at the Banks judicial review hearing – in essence the facts should be argued in a trial before a jury.

        http://www.3news.co.nz/Banks-trial-decision-due-next-week/tabid/423/articleID/323049/Default.aspx

        A taste

        “Mr Banks encouraged donations, encouraged cheques to be split, knew that they were being made, knew that they had been received, communicated receipt of donations, and at the same time made it clear his intentions and desire that these donations be anonymous,” Mr Heron told the court.

        “Whether or not he gave the return a great deal of scrutiny won’t be at the heart of the Crown case. The Crown will, I expect, say things turned out precisely as Mr Banks intended, with the return saying donations were anonymous which Mr Banks asked to be anonymous.”

        • RedBaronCV 20.1.1.1
          27 November 2013 at 8:54 pm

          This is the bit that bothers me. Doesn’t it strike to the heart of what Bank;s is charged with and it’s being sidelined?
          “Whether or not he gave the return a great deal of scrutiny won’t be at the heart of the Crown case. “

          • North 20.1.1.1.1
            28 November 2013 at 2:06 pm

            RedBaronCV – on the contrary it heartens rather than bothers me. At this point Heron is simply saying that Banks’ claim that he did not appreciate the falseness of the document because he gave it only cursory attention is not a sufficient ground for halting the prosecution, having regard to the rest of the evidence signalled.

            Heron is actually saying that in the round there is sufficient evidence going to the falseness of Banks’ claim of haplessness as to require a credibility determination by a jury. That is unremarkable. Credibility of a witness is ultimately for a jury, not for a judge sitting in preliminary hearing.

            I note that Justice Heath in the course of the hearing alluded to the question being whether on the already disclosed pool of evidence a jury could reasonably convict. That too heartens me. There’s always been a sense of farce about Banks’ protestations. A helicopter ride to probably the grandest pad in the land. To score big secret bucks off the unforgettable KDC. He can’t remember ? In a Monty Pythonesque way and out of his own mouth the septic wee Banks has put his credibility in issue. Credibility is ultimately for a jury, not for a judge sitting in preliminary.

            I expect the Crown using the disclosed pool of evidence to robustly attack Banks’ credibility for the purpose of painting the claim “I’m a busy man, I didn’t read it” is a desperate last gasp to get away with using the document as a device to maintain the cloak of secrecy he always sought.

          • North 20.1.1.1.2
            28 November 2013 at 2:06 pm

            RedBaronCV – on the contrary it heartens rather than bothers me. At this point Heron is simply saying that Banks’ claim that he did not appreciate the falseness of the document because he gave it only cursory attention is not a sufficient ground for halting the prosecution, having regard to the rest of the evidence signalled.

            Heron is actually saying that in the round there is sufficient evidence going to the falseness of Banks’ claim of haplessness as to require a credibility determination by a jury. That is unremarkable. Credibility of a witness is ultimately for a jury, not for a judge sitting in preliminary hearing.

            I note that Justice Heath in the course of the hearing alluded to the question being whether on the already disclosed pool of evidence a jury could reasonably convict. That too heartens me. There’s always been a sense of farce about Banks’ protestations. A helicopter ride to probably the grandest pad in the land. To score big secret bucks off the unforgettable KDC. He can’t remember ? In a Monty Pythonesque way and out of his own mouth the septic wee Banks has put his credibility in issue. Credibility is ultimately for a jury, not for a judge sitting in preliminary.

            I expect the Crown using the disclosed pool of evidence to robustly attack Banks’ credibility for the purpose of painting the claim “I’m a busy man, I didn’t read it” is a desperate last gasp to get away with using the document as a device to maintain the cloak of secrecy he always sought.

            • veutoviper 20.1.1.1.2.1
              28 November 2013 at 2:32 pm

              I agree, North. What was quoted of Heron’s arguments yesterday also heartened me – but I am still not holding my breath ….

              IMO, the sentence “Whether or not he gave the return a great deal of scrutiny won’t be at the heart of the Crown case. “ has to be read in the context of the whole quote in my 20.1.1.

              I was also interested that Heron was advocating for the case to go forward as a jury trial. IIRC from reading Graeme Edgeler and others, the trial could be either a judge only or a jury trial.

              IMHO, a judge only trial would focus on legal technicalities with the possibility that it could be dismissed on a technicality ; whereas a jury might focus on the bigger picture, as Heron seemed to be suggesting – eg Banks’ intentions in asking for donations and for these to be anonymous, broken down etc to maintain a ‘cloak of secrecy’ as you so succinctly put it.

      • Anne 20.1.2
        27 November 2013 at 6:58 pm

        Thanks veutoviper. Seen the Stuff articles and will read Edgeler later.

        (Another Stuff article that has been edited since it first appeared earlier today in both cases, probably to protect them…

        Typical of MSM news outlets. Run a mile from controversial truths in case they get bitten. Is it any wonder Mr & Mrs Voter are so uninformed…

  21. William Joyce 21
    27 November 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Green Party is doing so well.
    Russel Norman is a recognized a face of Green leadership. Greens are stable when all about them aren’t.
    Then Hay tries to take the leadership.
    Has he not seen what has been happening in Labour?
    Why, David, why? Personal ambition?
    It certainly isn’t for the good of the party.

    • McFlock 21.1
      27 November 2013 at 5:25 pm

      I reckon the Greens are mature enough to handle the process as well as Labour did (when they finally got around to putting their cards in the open).

      Interested about the “Auckland representation” angle, though – seems to me that encouraging regionalist pressures while seeking nation-wide leadership might be shooting the dead horse in the foot before the stable door has been bolted.

      • ghostrider888 21.1.1
        27 November 2013 at 6:19 pm

        always wise, situated above the muster Flockie

        • Ad 21.1.1.1
          27 November 2013 at 7:40 pm

          To me it kinda makes them less of the prissy passive-aggressive haute-bourgeoise avoiders, into something more politically real and in fact human.

      • Foreign Waka 21.1.2
        27 November 2013 at 7:12 pm

        No they are not, you watch that spot – this attempt will derail any possibility to get a green/labour coalition and therefore Nats will be back in the seat. I just wonder whether this is deliberate or just stupidity.

        • McFlock 21.1.2.1
          27 November 2013 at 10:37 pm

          To nuke a labgrn coalition the options are for grns to piss in the tent because lab ain’t green enough, or to go between labs and nat.
          I don’t get either vibe from hay at this stsge, just a fair punt for the chair.

    • chris73 21.2
      27 November 2013 at 5:31 pm

      At a guess I’d suggest the Greens saw how much publicity Labour got with their leadership battle and probably want a piece of that plus they then got to trumpet Normans mandate for even more publicity

      Sleazy by the Greens if true but good politics

      • ghostrider888 21.2.1
        27 November 2013 at 6:22 pm

        Too Much Information, you have for one mortal chris73. Always this and that; a hard-worker nonetheless.

        • North 21.2.1.1
          28 November 2013 at 6:50 am

          Piss73……..the ease with which you conflate “sleazy” and “good”………seems like your brand old boy. Sure your name’s not PissTextor73 ?

  22. Anne 22
    27 November 2013 at 5:32 pm

    Political egos have a habit of clouding good judgement WJ. See Labour’s leadership battle Dec. 2011.

    He wants to get high enough on the list to be elected next year. First he has to get his name out there and what better way to do that than challenge a leader. If I was a Green member I would not vote for him on principle because, as you suspect, he’s putting himself first?

    edit: just seen Chris 73. What a load of bollocks. And you accuse lefties of being conspiracy theorists

    • chris73 22.1
      27 November 2013 at 5:43 pm

      No worse then suggesting the best way to get a high list placing is to challenge the face of the party

    • McFlock 22.2
      27 November 2013 at 5:53 pm

      well, if tories didn’t suggest that lefties were constantly up to sleazy politics and contrived manipulations of the system, then they wouldn’t be able to defend the nats’ abuses with the line “but everyone does it, you’re naive if you think otherwise”

  23. bad12 23
    27 November 2013 at 5:40 pm

    Te Tai Hauauru Maori Party members have met at Whangaehu Marae to select a replacement for Tariana Turia from 6 candidates,

    i have yet to hear of what resulted from the meeting(perhaps it’s still going), but it looks from where i sit to be a call for volunteers to go down with the Maori Party ship,

    i do have to wonder what the members found so difficult in selecting a woman to stand,(the Maori Party would seem to need a woman as the constitution says there is to be both a male and female leader),

    Hell it’s more than an open secret that Maori Party Prez Ken Mair wants the nomination for Aunty Tari’s seat,(and jolly good laugh failed to get the constitution changed), my view is whack Him in a dress, change His name to Kendra and hey Bobs your Uncle…

    • Rogue Trooper 23.1
      27 November 2013 at 6:25 pm

      Credit to Ken Mair, yet, Moutoa Gardens was a hard road to hoe.

      • bad12 23.1.1
        27 November 2013 at 6:37 pm

        Not so sure about ‘credit’ have to do the maths on whether the pain equaled the gain? from that little exercise…

        • Rogue Trooper 23.1.1.1
          27 November 2013 at 6:40 pm

          No, I agree, it did not, hence ‘the hard road’ in the prevailing conservatism.
          An example of why in politics it is not helpful to throw the label “dickhead” at people we do not understand.

  24. Rogue Trooper 24
    27 November 2013 at 6:32 pm

    Product of The Week: ( Pork Crackle (well, the last three years ackshully).

    NB: qualifier: only taste tests carried out.

  25. RedBaronCV 25
    27 November 2013 at 9:52 pm

    Just viewed some tacky photo’s of the proposed Basin Reserve Flyover in Wellington.
    At a city council election meeting recently and looked at some of the younger crowd – thought “they would struggle to afford a car, struggle even more to put petrol in it, so remind me again, just why do they want to fund a flyover? dinosour thinking.