Open Mike 28/08/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:54 am, August 28th, 2018 - 124 comments
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124 comments on “Open Mike 28/08/2018”

  1. Ed 1

    Barry Soper writes for the interests of the rich.
    Again.
    What a shameful toady he is.

    • bwaghorn 1.1

      You should boycott him 😉

    • Sanctuary 1.2

      lol I looked at that – one thing stood for me:

      “…It’s a business and like all businesses, they should be free to run it without the state telling them how to…”

      The 1980s free market dinosaurs ain’t for changing their minds are they? Opinion presented as fact.

      Talk about nailing your Tory colours to the mast, eh Bazzer? He is ZB’s OAP Hoskings complete with wrinkles and a penchant for wearing bowties as daywear- a dreadful peccadillo thankfully confined to moth eaten aging men with questionable taste.

      Soper’s real beef with this government is that he doesn’t like “…This “generational reset…”

      he was a smug Tory fanboi contemplating another three years of decay for others by his cosy buddy boys in National under the genteel, “common sense” (for the right class) Bill English. Instead he got a 37 year old female PM (now with baby) and a generational lurch in power, and he does not like it one little bit.

      Bazzer just doesn’t understand the world these days.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1

        The 1980s free market dinosaurs ain’t for changing their minds are they? Opinion presented as fact.

        That’s all the right-wing have. Opinions. The facts almost always contradict what they say.

        In the first chapter of Capitalism vs. Freedom the author points out that craft beer in the US makes up 4% of the market. The rest is supplied by a single company based in Belgium.

        This is seen across many industries. So much for the free-market producing huge amounts of competition and choice. Free-market capitalism always results in oligopoly at best and more likely outright monopoly.

        • David Mac 1.2.1.1

          Yep, opinions presented as fact. This from the American Beer Distributors, the recognised industry voice…..Maybe they should read Capitalisim vs Freedom…I’m sure it’s a treasure trove of accuracy.

          I guess if I got rid of the stuff I depend on capitalists for I would be free. I’ll take the house, food, transport and clothes thanks.

          “MARKET SHARE OF BREWERS 2017
          The share of market for the top five brewers and importers has changed significantly over the past five years. Since 2017, more than 9 percent of the market volume has shifted from large brewers and importers to smaller brewers and importers. The continued growth in small, upstart breweries makes the U.S. beer market a dynamic and competitive industry.

          Brewer/Importer
          2007 Share vs 2017 Share

          Anheuser-Busch Inbev 48.3% 41.6%
          MillerCoors, LLC 29.4% 24.3%
          Constellation 5.4% 8.9%
          Heineken USA 4.1% 3.8%
          Pabst Brewing 2.8% 2.3%
          All Other Domestic and Imports 10% 19%
          Total 100% 100%

          • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.1

            Some of the best research on the subject of these ”market structures” is by author Barry Lynn, whose outstanding book Cornered documents the concentration of market after market, often hidden from our view by maintaining independent brand names even after being bought by giant conglomerates. For example, nine of the ten best-selling brands of bottled water are sold by three firms—Pepsi, Coke and Nestle.53 Looking at eyeglasses, ”LensCrafters, Sears Optical, and Sunglass Hut are all owned by the same company, the Italian eyewear conglomerate Luxottica.”54 Turning to the working man’s beer ”all the microbreweries and brew pubs together accounted for less than 4 percent” of the total, while “among the industrial brewers, consolidation never stopped… With the merger in 2007 of Miller and Coors, under the direction of South African Breweries (SAB), and the takeover in 2008 of Anheuser-Busch by InBev, the United States… was basically reduced to reliance on a world-bestriding beer duopoly, run not out of Milwaukee or St. Louis but out of Leuven, Belgium, and Johannesburg, South Africa.”55 And now, just Belgium, since in 2015 AB InBeV itself announced a $108 billion purchase of SAB Miller.56

            my bold.

            All the consolidation is hidden.

            • David Mac 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Hi Draco, the American trend is towards “I wonder who those guys are brewing beer down in the old General Store?”

              It’s a trend that is infiltrating many aspects of our trading lives. I like to get my avocadoes from a guy that watched the fruit grow. Not because I subscribe to Draco’s Fantasyland but because I don’t really care about Countdown’s trajectory. I like buying my food from a guy that raised it with love.

              I think we’re seeing a similar renaissance with brewing. Not because we want to destroy Lion Nathan Inc (like you do) but because we quite like the taste, bottle, label and families that make it.

              • Draco T Bastard

                /facepalm

                And how long before the craft brewers and the guy you buy your avocados from are bought up?

                You’re in denial of the reality of capitalism.

                The 147 Companies That Control Everything

                Three systems theorists at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich have taken a database listing 37 million companies and investors worldwide and analyzed all 43,060 transnational corporations and share ownerships linking them. They built a model of who owns what and what their revenues are and mapped the whole edifice of economic power.

                They discovered that global corporate control has a distinct bow-tie shape, with a dominant core of 147 firms radiating out from the middle. Each of these 147 own interlocking stakes of one another and together they control 40% of the wealth in the network. A total of 737 control 80% of it all. The top 20 are at the bottom of the post. This is, say the paper’s authors, the first map of the structure of global corporate control.

                I’m pretty sure that ownership and control has only gotten even more concentrated over the last seven years. That’s what capitalism does. It’s what it’s designed to do.

        • Incognito 1.2.1.2

          Good book? Recommendation?

    • Muttonbird 1.3

      That’s a disgraceful article. Full of errors and faulty thinking.

      • Ed 1.3.1

        The truth is here.
        With Soper was forced to actually face up to to real people after spewing the propaganda he vomits onto then pages of the Herald.

        People like Gavin

        Renting situation ‘an absolute nightmare’

        Gavin – who has asked not to be named – emigrated to Auckland from South Africa two years ago with his wife and two young children.
        But they have had unsuccessful tenancy after unsuccessful tenancy ever since and have lived in six different homes, including a week in a basement.
        “It’s an absolute nightmare. I wouldn’t recommend it for anybody.”
        They were forced out of their last rental after the landlord gave them a 42 day notice – something they are legally allowed to do under certain circumstances – in this case it was needed for family.
        However, a short time later, Gavin said new tenants moved in and when he challenged it the landlords claimed a death in the family meant it was no longer needed as a rental.
        “If you complain about a property, if you’ve got issues with a property, the landlord will find a way to get rid of you because they don’t want to fix the problems – it’s just too easy to find another tenant.”
        He said they would be in the lurch once again when their current lease expires, after their landlord said ‘no’ to an extension and did not have to explain why.
        “We’re currently on periodic again – in the same situation with kids changing schools, with having to buy new uniforms, with all sorts of things every time.”

        https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/365069/renting-situation-an-absolute-nightmare

        Soper.
        Scum.

        • dukeofurl 1.3.1.1

          Cant believe Soper..

          ” they should be free to run it without the state ”

          Fool wants the State to appoint and run Tenancy Tribunals to decide and extract money from the tenants.

          What he really wants is no rules apply to landlords while all the sanctions apply to tenants.
          Im guessing Lord Sober has a few houses on the side.
          aH YES

          LEMONADE DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED
          Industry Classification: L671150 Investment – residential property

        • Bewildred 1.3.1.2

          Hey Edward you ever consider landlords in reverse could bring up 1000s of stories of bad tenants, you always pick the extreme and assume the whole, [deleted]

          [Submitting an overtly abusive comment, not once, but twice? Think yourself lucky I’ve settling for merely deleting the unnecessary b/s you submitted] – Bill

        • Bewildered 1.3.1.3

          Hey Edward you ever consider landlords in reverse could bring up 1000s of stories of bad tenants, you always pick the extreme and assume the whole,
          pillickfkn grow up

          Ed

          [My bad. Three times you submitted the same unnecessary abuse. You’re determined. I’ll give you that. Now, take a week off.] – Bill

    • AB 1.4

      Owning rentals is middle class NZ’s grubby little habit. More genteel than running a tinny house, but similarly self-seeking in intent and exploitative in effect.
      Soper illustrates the associated moral decay.

      • greywarshark 1.4.1

        Renting used to be a way of investing money to help in retirement. It had a useful function for all. Then, with the decline in domestic business opportunities because of unfettered free markets, and the use of immigrants as a faux business boosting export income on the balance sheet there was a change in demand and an invitation to the public to look on housing as part of an investment portfolio, and banks were happy to lend to them, often on a low deposit leverage basis. This was exacerbated by the withdrawal of government providing affordable housing for people with low resources and who had need connected with important human nurturing roles for themselves or for others,, and by goverment paying subsidies for private provision to fill that gap.

        It is government at fault for drawing housing into a financial bubble that has drawn us back into the inflationary spiral of Muldoon’s time, except with lower wages and high demand and tax incentives driving extremes of need and sky high prices. Just bloody mismanagement on a grand, callous scale. That is NZs grubby little habit along with an alcohol dependency that oils political wheels in many ways that have negative impacts on the country.

        • SaveNZ 1.4.1.1

          I think people have missed the point the government has encouraged people in NZ to be landlords because they did not want to be landlords themselves and stopped believing in the state house model. They also actively told Kiwis to do it in the 1990’s as they told everyone there was not going to be super by the time many would need it, so start saving now!

          If every private landlord stopped renting, and it’s already starting to happen, then guess what, no private rentals, no state houses, more people now renting with less rentals, homelessness and the state paying motel owners $1000 p/w for a 1 room weekly stay.

          I just can’t understand how the government can’t work out the house fairy is not in town and when the (laughable ) 300 new state houses turn up in a decade and the state can’t even renovate the state houses to a decent standard themselves (instead just deciding to knock them down and wait 5 years before rebuilding them at greater costs), 90% of houses in NZ failed the WOF, most of the tenancy tribunal decisions are for unpaid rent and trashing housing not landlord behaviour, the idea that landlords being seen as some sort of step up from a drug dealer which seems to be a discourse actively encouraged by lefties at the mo, where the F are the rentals gonna come from?

          The figures do not work for renting because they have allowed the cost of housing to get too high by the foreign investment and permanent residency model, have little to zero practical regulation and ability to make faulty buildings and substandard work in construction to be remedied easily by the contractors, builders and developers instead relying on the new owners to do something about it (normally sue the councils) which is lengthy and time consuming as well as allow rip offs across the board. Meanwhile those developers set up shop with a new company and do more overpriced crap houses with more and more profit gouging by everybody from connecting water, to electricity to bank loans being able to charge outrageous fees for refinancing for example.

          • greywarshark 1.4.1.1.1

            savenz
            You are doing all the thinking work that the state should be doing. You should get an honorarium at least plus a medal!

            As you say the whole effort by government has gone into makework for building companies who are so greedy that on commercial buildings, they deliberately underquote so as to secure the building contract, and then add on stuff afterwards with appropriate excuses, thus establishing a new kind of state monopoly. And that m.. word arising from government doing too much itself, is a bad word treated by business derisively and angrily. Till each business manage to corner their part of the market.

            Also something that doesn’t get mentioned but will apply. Private landlords usually want a business-like return from their investment. They revalue their houses, set the rents to return whatever say 8% gross, and then on each revaluation, perhaps each year, the rent goes up to provide the expected percentage.

            Government should not work out rents at market rates and don’t need to except for the twisted capitalist ideology now prevailing. They need not apply a twisted simplistic socialist ideology either that might say that such housing should be free, or at peppercorn rental. They should be pragmatic and keep account of the cost of land and building and services to arrive at a valuation for their accounts. They would then set a rental that provides a reasonable return that the tenant can afford usually from their pension, to cover repairs and maintenance. The cost of repairs, maintenance and annual amount for management which would not be high amounts, would be added to the original figures annually, and that would be the true book value of the building; not the inflated figure driven up by market supply and demand.

            The government rent would be affordable and would have to be enough to pay for all requirements; they could have a fund for their own insurance for unexpected repairs and damage.

          • Gosman 1.4.1.1.2

            The private sector has ALWAYS been the main provider of rental accommodation in NZ. The State has only ever picked up some slack.

            • arkie 1.4.1.1.2.1

              The slack:

              The Beginning of State Housing
              …In 1905, alarmed by growing reports of extortionate rents and squalid living conditions in the working-class districts of New Zealand cities, Liberal PM Richard Seddon introduced the Workers’ Dwellings Act. Its purpose was to provide urban workers with low-cost suburban housing, far removed from city slums and grasping landlords…
              …Like the Liberals, Labour wanted to provide new suburban homes for working-class people living in dilapidated inner-city districts. In building these homes, it hoped to stimulate local industry and provide work for those left jobless by the Great Depression…

              https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/we-call-it-home/the-state-steps-in-and-out
              https://www.hnzc.co.nz/about-us/history-of-state-housing/

  2. James 2

    Soper nailed it.

    It is a business and the state has zero right to get involved.

    Make it too hard for landlords and they will leave them empty or Airb+b it.

    • Sabine 2.1

      ahh, give the poor hard done landlord what they wants lest they hold the country hostage.

      it’s a business, any business is regulated. Be it food service, medical care, buidling codes etc etc. The same is should be with rentals, unless you approve of slums. Cause that is what follows when you remove any and all regulations. Slums. Hovels, rotten bits of woods that collapse when the earth shakes.

      Let them rent their places to Air B + B, and tax the income as income.

      • james 2.1.1

        “Let them rent their places to Air B + B, and tax the income as income.”

        Have to agree with that.

        Of course its a business – so there will be deductibles of course.

      • SaveNZ 2.1.2

        that collapse when the earth shakes… no idea the CTV building was a rental… but I don’t think the landlords are the ones building these houses… it’s also not the residential buildings collapsing, it’s the commercial ones. T

        The newer residential ones seem to have the most structural issues from bad foundations to faulty cladding … nothing to do with the landlord and everything to do with the last 30 years of neoliberal building practices and labour in NZ…

    • marty mars 2.2

      yes the bleating landlord class – why should another person make profit from renters? It is immoral and wrong imo.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1

        Rentier behaviour, otherwise known as bludging, is all that capitalists do.

        And, yes, it is immoral and wrong.

        • David Mac 2.2.1.1

          I agree, I hate the scum that provide me with my reasonably priced comfortable home.

          The filthy trollops sent me a Christmas present last year. I saw straight through the gesture, vomited on the chocolates and nuts and posted them straight back to the nazi jew boy commo capitalist bastards. You rock Draco.

          • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.1.1

            I hate the scum that provide me with my reasonably priced comfortable home.

            They don’t provide you with anything.

            That is the lie that you keep accepting despite all the evidence. Well, actually, it’s probably more that you want to think of yourself like that.

    • pete 2.3

      Yes, and mental health is a private issue and smoking P is a private issue and …

    • Grey Area 2.4

      The state not only has a right it has a responsibility. But your neoliberal brain probably can’t grasp that.

    • Bearded Git 2.5

      ooooh Jeremy Corbyn …ooooh Jeremy Corbyn ….ooooh Jeremy Corbyn….

    • Draco T Bastard 2.6

      If the landlords can’t handle the business then they shouldn’t be in business.

      • Naki man 2.6.1

        That’s true but less landlords means higher rents and that’s not good for renters

        • Draco T Bastard 2.6.1.1

          Or we could have decent state housing and remove the need for the bludging landlords.

  3. dV 3

    Fisher article
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12114534

    Justice Matthew Palmer told lawyers ahead of sentencing he wanted them to come to court with evidence longer sentences actually had the deterrent effect the law told him to consider.

    Days later, defence lawyers came with research showing it didn’t work.

    The Crown turned up with nothing.

    In particular there is a graph of prison inmates from 1979 to present.
    It shows a steady increase of the prison population., peppers with 9 legislation changes.
    Th changes had a small effect for a short time and then the climb continued,

    • dukeofurl 3.1

      Just as a point of view, doesn’t being in jail mean you cant commit other crimes for what they call ‘volume crime’ or for recidivist offenders.
      I think the point you are trying to make is jail is not a rehab, which will not convince you of the error of your ways.
      As a cohort idea , every year theres a new group of 16-18 yr olds who go from zero offending to high offending rates. Most of those only ‘grow out of it’- going to prison or home D doesnt change anything.
      Any way theres a whole new cohort the next year.

      I saw something the other day about the murder ‘rate ‘ ( ie per 1 mill of population) in NZ. Up to the mid 60s it had been stable , but bounced around the rate of 6 murders or so per year per mill over the previous 40 yrs. Then it shot up over the next 15 years to a bit over 40 per mill, but has eased back in the last 20 years.

      What was the big event from the mid 60s onwards ? There we a couple but the first to consider was the baby boomers coming into the peak offending years. After that would come the explosion in drugs use and the crime that came with that, and then was the growth in gangs. There were other social changes that happened too but you could largely see just a large bump in one demographic group meant the murder rate moved up but because they were larger in the total population it magnified it even further.

      • bwaghorn 3.1.1

        Got a nephew. Nutty funny likable guy and used to be into endless petty crimes . Finally went to jail for repeat driving offences ( how it he stayed out for so long is beyond me)
        When he got out he said never again and is doing everything he can to make it .

        • veutoviper 3.1.1.1

          I hope you are still around as I am about to post a new thread here on Open Mike on a subject of interest to you – NAIT Act. A bit of light for you hopefully.

          • bwaghorn 3.1.1.1.1

            Cool but I’m only a shepherd so my knowledge is limited and I can only do what the bosses want.

            • veutoviper 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Fair enough. Full story at 9 below. Short version is that the whole NAIT Act is to be reviewed in the next six months or so. But under the changes that were finally agreed to the Act two weeks ago, under law the changes re search and seizure also agreed must be reviewed within 12 months and reported back to Parliament within 3 months after that. In other words, they are not fixed in stone forever. And the provisions that inspectors must have a warrant to enter the farm house or a marae, or permission from the home owner or marae, already in the Act have not been changed and still apply.

              • bwaghorn

                Cheers . I may have been guilty of a bit of grandstanding although I stand by my comments if it had of been some one other than farmers some here would have been screaming blue murder .
                Of interest the new powers have hardly caused a ripple on the rural fb feeds I get or with the few cookies i associate with . Happy with it or just didn’t notice I’m not sure .

      • greywarshark 3.1.2

        One of the points in the Herald link above to consider in deciding length of sentence was –

        to send a message such behaviour was not acceptable

        I think this is a poorly written piece of law or guidance.. The whole point of being charged with the offence is spelt out in that quote. To then reassert it through the sentence, after the fact of the crime, is witless. And to punish someone more severely as an example to others in society is wrong, and venturing away from a just punishment or retribution for the actual crime being tried.

        If the state wants to impress philosophy on the community it should include classes on good citizenship in primary school education. Forget about religion which should be a private matter, and have discussions on civility, civic duty, community and fairness, tolerance and imposition, truth and consequences, and debates by the kids ion how society would work without guidelines and laws to back them up.

        Far better than to have someone jawing stuff about ‘shoulds’ at you.

        • dukeofurl 3.1.2.1

          There is a hierarchy of blame all the same. Thats why not all crimes have the same sentence range after all.
          Added to that any previous convictions mean the starting point is higher .

          • greywarshark 3.1.2.1.1

            I made the point that the sentence should not include extra time to deter the others, as in:
            ‘The phrase ‘pour encourager les autres’ is used, of a punishment or sacrifice, to mean as an example to the others, to deter or encourage…

    • Bearded Git 3.2

      Wow good stuff dV.

      That graph shows a 30% increase in the prison population under the Key junta.

      • dukeofurl 3.2.1

        Theres 2 categories of prisoners, those sentenced and those on remand.
        Part of the reason for the remand numbers blowing out is the Nats decided having more district court judges was ‘counterproductive’.
        Of course we have home detention and pre release sentences served with bracelets, which especially for those who never been in prison before are an effective deterrent as its quite onerous. Recidivist offenders are hardly bothered if they are still immature

      • Wayne 3.2.2

        The great majority of the increase is in remand prisoners from 2013 onward due to changes in the Bail Act. The amendments to the Bail Act were a response to the fact that there were quite a few high profile instances of people on remand committing serious violent offences, including rape and murder. Maybe the amendments went too far, but the prior situation was also unacceptable.

  4. Ad 4

    Here’s the full text of the Prime Minister addressing the Westpac audience about business confidence this morning:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1808/S00312/working-together-to-build-a-new-economy.htm

    • alwyn 4.1

      Not another bloody talkfest.
      Air New Zealand pays their CEO around $5,000,000/year.
      He is paid that to run the bloody airline, not to indulge in wanking while he waits for a decoration from the state.
      Do the damn job you are collecting a fortune to do. Don’t spend you time playing at being some sort of guru. Leave that to the retired old hack politicians like Bolger and Cullen.

      • SaveNZ 4.1.1

        For once I agree with you Alwyn.

        “Air New Zealand pays their CEO around $5,000,000/year.
        He is paid that to run the bloody airline, not to indulge in wanking while he waits for a decoration from the state.
        Do the damn job you are collecting a fortune to do.”

        I also don’t think any CEO of a NZ company should be paid more than $600k and I’m sure plenty of takers for that salary…

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1

          I also don’t think any CEO of a NZ company should be paid more than $600k and I’m sure plenty of takers for that salary…

          I actually think that the highest paid person in NZ should be the PM and that $400k is too much for that position.

        • Bewildered 4.1.1.2

          Yep 5m is a fk joke and only further enhances thier god complex and I am a righty Not to mention anz also has an implicit guarantee by the tax payer unlike other businesses

      • dukeofurl 4.1.2

        Are you so ignorant about leading CEOs Alwrong ?

        They all have a whole slew of additional activities, some charitable, some business, others are public good bodies.

      • Ad 4.1.3

        Under the Clark administration the Growth and Innovation Advisory Board was also stacked with CE’s from our major corporates and provided useful (albeit low profile) advice on a number of Cabinet papers, as well as free and frank advice to Ministers of the time.

        Prime Minister Ardern’s effort appears to be more like medieval cupping, where you place heated cups all over the body to draw “sickness” out, rather than in one persistent bloodletting.

        Form a committee, draw the poison.

        It’s corporate management through the Humours.

  5. Bill 5

    A comprehensive piece by Johnathan Cook on allegations and suspicions of Israeli interference in British politics – specifically the never ending onslaught of antisemitism directed at UK Labour and Jeremy Corbyn.

    Is Israel’s hand behind the attacks on Jeremy Corbyn?

    Johnathan Cook is no journalistic slouch. I highly recommend those with time read the piece.

    Then there’s an interesting short video piece by Mehdi Hasan over at the Intercept claiming (with examples given) that Benjamin Netanyahu is fine with antisemites – as long as they support Israel’s occupation.

    Okay. That’s me for today. Gone.

    • adam 5.1

      The thing with dirty politics and especially the current run of it against Corbyn, you’d think some here might actually feel a sense of solidarity for him, as to what happened here. But sadly, to many here are happy to join in to put the boot in.

    • Wayne 5.2

      Bill,

      I have read the item by Cook. He is not even prepared to say the Palestinians terrorists killed the athletes. Instead it is all the fault of the german police. So on his reasoning it is no big deal that Corbyn was at the wreath laying. Not surprisingly others are of a different view.

      Corbyn may well be the UK’s next PM. I am certain that will cause difficulty in the western alliance. If it is really serious, the easiest thing for the allies to do is probably disengage with the UK on foreign policy issues for the 5 to 10 years he is PM.

      • greywarshark 5.2.1

        That might be a welcome relief for the UK if there is disengagement from the warmongers.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2

        He is not even prepared to say the Palestinians terrorists killed the athletes. Instead it is all the fault of the german police.

        A bungled rescue attempt could be what resulted in their deaths when negotiation may have resulted in the athletes not being killed by the Palestinians.

        • McFlock 5.2.2.1

          Yeah, nah.

          I sure as shit think the Israelis are working on their own bit of genocide in Palestine, but the fault of German cops being in way over their head is very much secondary to that of the people who took machine guns and hand grenades to the Olympics in the first place.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2.1.1

            I’m not excusing the Palestinians. They’re the ones who pulled the trigger.

            But I don’t really blame them either. As you say, they are fighting the Israeli’s ongoing war against them.

            • McFlock 5.2.2.1.1.1

              However, putting it into the passive voice and removing the people who did the actual killing from the description of the killings is a great way of not just excusing what someone did, but going so far as to actually obscure the fact that they did it at all.

              Which leaves people who use that passive voice open to criticism from people who disagree with them on a tangential issue. Because whether or not Corbyn knew exactly what was being said or who was buried there or what was done, only naming the cops’ part in hostages being killed is pretty callous.

      • Bill 5.2.3

        Wayne.

        The point is that the people who killed athletes in Munich are buried in Libya, not Tunisia.

        Corbyn was at a memorial event in Tunisia but (according to various news sources) somehow paying tribute to people buried, not there, but in another country.

        You know this.

        And how Cook couches his prose is neither here nor there on that front.

        btw. Cook writes that – Eleven Israelis were killed during a bungled rescue bid by the German security services. You think he’s implying that fucking oompa loompas did the killing? And please, notice the link that I’ve re-embedded as per the original text.

      • Venezia 5.2.4

        Wayne – Corbyn was in Tunisia. The athletes in question are buried in Libya

        • joe90 5.2.4.1

          Apparently Corbyn is supposed to have known that Salah Khalaf, Arafat’s former deputy assassinated by the Israelis in 1991, who admitted his role in the Munich assault is buried there.

          Returning to Tunisia, digging up the kinds of pictures used to smear Corbyn and performing the research to determine who is buried in the cemetery is no job for amateurs. No matter how much animus has arisen against Corbyn, no one in Britain has both the means, methods and expertise to do this sort of thing. My strong suspicion is that it was the work of Israeli intelligence operatives. Not necessarily the Mossad itself, though that’s a possibility. But certainly current or former intelligence operatives working on behalf of official Israeli agencies. The Strategic Affairs ministry immediately comes to mind. It is headed by Gil Erdan and his deputy, former military censor Sima Vaknin-Gil. They have publicly boasted that they are hiring such agents to mount sabotage campaigns against international targets supporting BDS and other forms of anti-Israel “delegitimization.”

          https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2018/08/17/israeli-attempts-to-overthrow-corbyn-and-other-foreign-leaders/

      • Drowsy M. Kram 5.2.5

        Wayne, are you certain, or at least ‘fairly certain’, that Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic? I ask because our Prime Minister met Corbyn in London in April, so is there a chance (in your opinion) that his much-hyped ‘anti-semitism’ rubbed off on her?

        It’s a sizeable wedge you’re playing here:

        “If it is really serious, the easiest thing for the allies to do is probably disengage with the UK on foreign policy issues for the 5 to 10 years he is PM.”

        https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-s-hidden-hand-behind-attacks-jeremy-corbyn-139423040

        “Corbyn is up against an unholy, ad hoc alliance of right-wing MPs in both the Labour and Tory parties, the Israeli government and its lobbyists, the British security services and the media.

        They have settled on anti-Semitism as the best weapon to use against him because it is such a taboo issue. It’s like quicksand. The more he struggles against the claims, the more he gets sucked down into the mire.”

        • Psych nurse 5.2.5.1

          Palestinians are semitic by heritage most Jewish people by conversion, I fail to see therefore that being pro Palestine can be anti-semitic. The people of Jewish decent have simply captured the phrase.

        • Wayne 5.2.5.2

          No, I don’t think Corbyn is actually anti-Semitic, though some in the UK, including some of his own MP’s seem to think he is.

          It is that he is pro-Palestinian and anti Israel. It is not as if they have to be binary exclusions. One could be both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli. But that does not seem to be the option that Corbyn takes.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 5.2.5.2.1

            Do some in the UK “seem to think he is” anti-Semitic, or do some think he is antisemitic?

            No need to hedge; certainly some in the UK think Corbyn is antisemitic. Why they think this is the question.

            Could it be due in part to how often this opinion is expressed by “right-wing MPs in both the Labour and Tory parties, the Israeli government and its lobbyists, the British security services and the media”?

            It is that he [Corbyn] is pro-Palestinian and anti Israel.

          • KJT 5.2.5.2.2

            Given Israels current treatment of Palestinians and continued land grabbing, how can anyone continue to be pro Israel. Unless they are totally lacking in a sense of justice.

      • dukeofurl 5.2.6

        “Corbyn may well be the UK’s next PM. I am certain that will cause difficulty in the western alliance.”

        So no troubles at all caused by Trump ?

        As for the role of the police even German media later saw it as bungled operation.
        https://www.dw.com/en/1972-munich-olympics-massacre-an-avoidable-catastrophe/a-40405813

        And of course the role played by you know who

        German negotiators were inclined to give in to the demands but Israel strictly rejected them.

      • millsy 5.2.7

        NATO should have been dissolved when the Berlin Wall fell. There was no need to it to exist any more, at least in its current form.

      • Tricledrown 5.2.8

        Wayne gets his information from the speculator a rabid right wing wrag.
        Breitbart news UK version info Wars.

  6. SaveNZ 6

    A backdoor to environmental destruction

    “Next week Parliament is likely to vote on Nick Smith’s mini-Muldoonist bill to seize land from a protected conservation area to build an irrigation dam. Smith’s spin is that this is a one-off, but as Forest & Bird points out, there’s a very real risk of setting a precedent for using Parliament as a backdoor to bypass the RMA and Conservation Acts:”

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2018/08/a-backdoor-to-environmental-destruction.html

    • dukeofurl 6.1

      It will go to a committee for submissions first, so wont pass if at all for ages

      • SaveNZ 6.1.1

        In the history of ecology, ages is probably millions of years, now ages is probably a couple of years with modern thinking. Pity our kids and our kids kids for some disastrous decisions and short term approaches by our officials.

  7. Gosman 7

    You guys must be so proud to have another business friendly neoliberal PM in power.

    🙂

  8. adam 8

    Censorship as always affects voices of descent from the left, way more than it ever does the right. teleSUR and other left media are now being actively censored by facebook and google. What fun times we live in. Abby martin and Jimmy Dore – so the soft supporters of liberalism might want to look away from this 10 minute video, might be a bit much.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.1

      Capitalism must have censorship and oppression so as to keep the capitalists in power.

    • Bill 8.2

      -sigh-

      “Most” people don’t care and don’t get it. “Most” people think that stopping someone like Lauren Southern from speaking, while ensuring that someone like Chelsea Manning can, is where the line of conflict is.

      And when Lauren Southern is stopped, it’s a result. And when Alex Jones is deplatformed, it’s a result. And if others are getting taken out to the side of that, then hey – on balance, it’s possibly or probably still a result.

      Seeking political outcomes and standing up for principles. The first one’s easy enough for brainless fucks looking to hook into a righteous cause. The second, often enough, get’s gets taken out at the knees by those same brainless fucks hooking into the latest righteous cause.

      And then, one day, if they ever look for anything beyond the dogwhistle …. tumbleweed. And they’ll say “How’d we get here?”

  9. veutoviper 9

    Calling bwaghorn

    National Animal Identification and Tracing Amendment Bill

    Just a update on the above which was signed into law by the Governor-General last week (22 August 2018).

    I was left with some questions and issues re this Bill after the discussion on Open Mike 17 August 2018 following your heartfelt views expressed when it passed through Parliament, which led to a very long discussion.

    Open Mike 17/08/2018

    Despite being an urbanite whose entire farming experience was a few days on a diary farm as a primary school exchange many decades ago (LOL), I have relooked at what happened on this Bill and what came out of its passage through the House under urgency in the week of 14 – 16 August.

    One of the reasons for its urgency etc was apparently the difficulties in enforcement vis a vis the current M. bovis crisis – plus the fact that the search and seizure provisions of the NAIT Act passed in 2012 do not align with those of the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 – both Acts being brought in under National The NAIT Act was passed before the S & S Act, and therefore does not incorporate changes agreed to the S & S Act during its later passage through Parliament.

    Apparently the National Government talked about aligning the two Acts but did nothing about it during their remaining years in office.

    The current government had this on their “to do” list and apparently were planning to align and review the NAIT Act under normal legislative procedures later in 2018 or early 2019.

    With the M Bovis crisis, the alignment became urgent and Damian O’Connor stated during the debates on the NAIT Amendment Bill that they therefore decided to move urgently on the search and seizure changes (including to cover non-NAIT locations) to resolve the problems which had arisen with M. Bovis investigations and enforcement – in relation to a very small sector only of the farming community. The intention is to still introduce another NAIT Amendment Bill covering less urgent matters in the next six months or so.

    As a result of discussion in the House on this, National drafted a further amendment to the draft NAIT Amendment Bill to introduce an expiry provision. The draft Hansard is not clear on the exact wording or nature of this amendment but it seems from the debate, that it sought to require that the wider search provisions in the Amendment Bill of Schedule 2 to the NAIT Act would expire in 12 months after the Bill came into force to “encourage” the Government to undertake a review of these changes to the search and seizure provisions within that time.

    The Minister/Government agreed to parts of this proposed amendment (but with some changes not actually recorded in the draft Hansard) – as the only change agreed during the urgency debates to the overall Bill. However, this agreed change did not get put up on the Parliamentary website as a formal Supplementary Order Paper (SOP) due to its last minute agreement before the Bill was passed, and its final wording was unclear in Hansard.

    Having discovered this bit of news, I have been waiting for the Bill to be receive Royal Assent and its final wording appearing on the NZ Legislation website before reporting on the above here.

    The final Act is now up and here is the link –

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2018/0026/latest/whole.html#LMS72270

    The change agreed is at clause 9 and in simple language, requires the Minister to:

    – Initiate a review of the changes made to Schedule 2 set out in clause 8 within 12 months of the commencement of the changes; and

    – Present a report on the review to the House within three months of initiating the review.

    While this provision does not require that these changes expire within that time as it seems was what National originally proposed, there is at least now a requirement that prevents the changes just being left there forever.

    There would also be no real point restricting this review just to the changes to Schedule 2 search and seizure provisions, and so hopefully a much wider review of the whole Act will be now undertaken in the time frames set out in clause 9 – and any changes to the Act then go through normal legislative procedures including full Select Committee consideration.

    Hope that helps.

    By the way, in the very last comment in the OM 17/08/2018 thread, Robert Guyton said “They can’t go into the farmer’s house without a warrant.”

    Open Mike 17/08/2018

    This is correct under Section 49(2) of Schedule 2 of the principal NAIT Act and has not been changed in the recent Bill.

    Full Schedule 2 to NAIT Act
    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2012/0002/latest/DLM3752709.html

    Section 49 to Schedule 2
    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2012/0002/latest/whole.html#DLM3748504

    • dukeofurl 9.1

      Thats what I thought too, a very small number of farmers were playing hardball.

      The original legislation was introduced when Anderton, now dead, was Agriculture Minister….. yet national has dragged its feet for most of the 9 years to get it all up to speed. of course making Biosecurity NZ so out of touch and under funded ..like Census NZ, Like Immigration NZ etc etc that they were set up to fail.

      Funny that Ballotomane Bill English was able to get a hefty increase for his dancing tutus.

  10. Ad 10

    Tasman District Council has just voted to out of the Waimea Dam.

    This thing is toast.

      • marty mars 10.1.1

        O for Awesome!!!

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.2

        Speaking on behalf of businesses, Nelson Pine Industries technical manager Phillip Wilson warned councillors choosing the ‘No Dam’ option would “cause regular and expensive disruption to industrial and commercial operations.

        “The no dam decision will mean every man and woman for themselves”.

        So that would be, like, capitalism then?

      • Ad 10.1.3

        At some point they will have to figure out security of water supply solutions, both for their growing urban population and for their growing horticulture industry.

        They will also need to better prepare to capture and store in order to mitigate the far more frequent post-tropical storms that dump in this area.

        So the Waimea dam issue is not going to go away – they’ve just deferred the whole issue of water security like Hawkes Bay has through killing off Ruitaniwha. For another generation, some other time,.

        • dukeofurl 10.1.3.1

          Ruataniwha was a different story, there was no problem for existing towns, they just wanted to run big irrigation machines over that lovely flat ( dairying) land instead of sheep farming.

          Waimea seems to be slightly different as intensification seems to have been slowly taking up all the available water.

          In both cases the price of the dam water would make its use uneconomic without a big public subsidy, usually disguised as ‘ecologic water’. of course if they really needed to spread the flow out all year a small $10 mill dam would do without an additional costly piped supply.

          • Ad 10.1.3.1.1

            I agree that bulk town supply was less of an issue in Hawkes Bay – except for the issue of Havelock North mass water poisoning. Ruitaniwha certainly wasn’t the only solution – and there will be more from Minister Mahuta on this in the coming months.

            I was personally pleased that Forest and Bird did DoC like a dinner on that one, and I just bet they were gearing up to do the same with the Waimea.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.3.2

          At some point they will have to figure out security of water supply solutions, both for their growing urban population and for their growing horticulture industry.

          Perhaps they should be looking at a more suitable industry as it’s obvious that the region can’t actually support horticulture with it’s limited availability of resources.

          We do need to live within our means after all.

  11. UncookedSelachimorpha 11

    National displays its deep ignorance and hostility to decency.

    They want to ban Chelsea Manning from visiting NZ.

    From all I’ve heard about her, she is a bona fide whistle blower, person of conscience and throughly decent person. National would rather support the US war machine and its illegal drone killings.

    In their statement National says the Manning case is different to that of the Canadian racists making their visit (i.e. the racists were a better choice for a visa!)

    Brought to you by the same party that backed apartheid and called Nelson Mandela a terrorist. Moral superheroes, they are.

    • Cinny 11.1

      Maybe Chelsea could help simon find the ‘leaker’?

    • Chris T 11.2

      She is a convicted traitor who put a lot of people’s lives in danger, but I have no issue with her coming here and speaking.

      Freedom of speech

      • greywarshark 11.2.1

        She may have saved lives, in displaying what the great powers are up to and their dirty deeds. Can people with soiled hands honestly convict others of exposing their dirt?

        • Chris T 11.2.1.1

          Tell that to all the local informants she handed out the details of

          • joe90 11.2.1.1.1

            the local informants she handed out the details of

            Repeating Taliban propaganda doesn’t make it true.

            But under defence cross-examination Carr conceded that the victim’s name had not be included in the war logs made public by WikiLeaks. Asked by Lind whether the individual who was killed was tied to the disclosures, Carr replied: “The Taliban killed him and tied him to the disclosures. We went back and looked for the name in the disclosures. The name of the individual killed was not in the disclosures.”

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/bradley-manning-sentencing-hearing-pentagon

            • Chris T 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Where did I refer to that case?

              • joe90

                You repeated an assertion made by the Taliban, the local informants she handed out the details of, that was unsubstantiated during Manning’s trial.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 11.2.2

        Anyone opposing the working of any violent or repressive regime will be considered a traitor by that regime.

        Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

        The types of things Manning revealed, that the USA would like to keep secret, and for which you and the National Party consider she is a traitor:


        “A US diplomatic cable said that American troops executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including and infant an a 70-year old woman, and then called in an air strike to destroy the evidence.”

        “The video showed two American helicopters firing on a group of 10 men in the Amin District of Baghdad. Two were Reuters employees there to photograph an American Humvee under attack by the Mahdi Army. Pilots mistook their cameras for weapons. The helicopters also fired on a van, targeted earlier by one helicopter, that had stopped to help wounded members of the first group. Two children in the van were wounded, and their father was killed. ”

        “US officials previously indicated that no logs existed of civilian deaths since the 2003 invasion and occupation of Iraq – but one cable showed that 66,081 non-combatant deaths had been logged out of a total of 109,000 fatalities between 2004 and 2009.”

        ” the Granai airstrike in Afghanistan. The airstrike occurred on May 4, 2009, in the village of Granai, Afghanistan, killing 86 to 147 Afghan civilians”

        “The leaked cables revealed that diplomats of the U.S. and Britain eavesdropped on Secretary General Kofi Annan in the weeks before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, in apparent violation of international treaties prohibiting spying at the UN.”

        “The leak resulted in the Iraq Body Count project adding 15,000 civilian deaths to their count, bringing their total to over 150,000, with roughly 80% of those civilians.”

      • KJT 11.2.3

        She. Exposed war crimes by the US military.

  12. Cinny 12

    Wooo Hooooo !!!! The Waimea Dam is going to be canned 🙂

    More councillors voted against the dam than for it.

    Really pleased.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/106615114/tasman-councillors-vote-against-proceeding-with-waimea-dam

  13. eco moari 13

    Good evening The Am Show If we did not have whistle blower’s we would still think the system’s are honest we now know there is one rule for the wealthy and one for the common poor tangata .
    All these problem have been magnified buy national’s policy’s of make it extremely hard to get state money lock em up and then using any Maori issue as a weapon against the Left political Party’s these policy’s has made people unhappy and unhappy people feeling’s flow through to there children you get bulling and racial abuse ect . You see this is a country not a business we can not let dumb people get a hold of a microphone and shout there dumb Ideals at everyone as that’s bad for the people’s mental health.
    Some people don’t know how to look in the mirror to see why they are not liked people can see a troll a mile away and these troll’s blame everyone else for there problem’s.
    Good music guys .
    All these people who are causing all these unhumane condition’s around Papatuanuku
    need to get there———kicked many thanks to the United Nation’s for highlighting these crimes against Humanity. Ka kite ano.

  14. eco moari 14

    Human caused Global Warming is our reality now not tomorrow it is a real threat we all have to advance the take up of Renewable Energy as fast as we can .
    We have all the technology to achieve this now .We have to ignore all the people who call them selves conservatives YEA RIGHT the only thing they want to conserve is there money and power over there grandchildren future over Papatuanuku future .
    99.0 % of our scientist say that Global warming is going to cause a great human disaster all the mokopunas can see this fact and they still lie to them fake it till you make it the hole world can see and some can read your move’s quite easly .
    Global warming is not joke it here and now link below ka kite ano.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/27/california-climate-change-report-wildfires-jerry-brown

  15. eco moari 15

    These beautiful animals belong to Papatuanuku to and deserve to have a future .
    Many thanks to the Judge who ruled in favour of OUR wild life over capitalism Ka pai.
    Link below Ka kite ano

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106647401/southern-right-whale-and-calf-spotted-in-wellington-harbour

  16. eco moari 17

    Good evening Newshub Te Tohoraha and her pepi are back in the Wellington Harbour Eco has had a few trips out of there ka pai. Air pollution is a real threat the oil baron don’t give a ————.
    is that not a good reason to stop burning carbon I think so .
    That’s better that Dallas cop who got convicted for murder of that mokopuna’s it’s good that the Judges no that the whole Papatuanuku is watching now that’s a good outcome .
    That ancient sight in Turkey is a awesome find 12000 years old that’s a ancient whenua Eco Maori does not trust some of the history time line that we see in the books it all depends on who wrote them. Ka kite ano P.S the health system only works well for the wealthy I say that we should be able to sue for malpractices one person payed $700 to get there child a cat scan they did not do that for my mokopuna she is still in pain

  17. eco moari 18

    The Crowd Goes Wild Mull’s and Wai
    Jame’s and Wai could be soul bro’s lol.
    The League test at Mount Smart stadium Auckland will be awesome and the Wahine are playing to ka pai.
    All the best to Bolts on his new courier playing football the big Kiwi basket ball man described him as a good man .
    4 seconds and 10 year’s and you would have been in Gridiron a should have recruting like that for all our mokopuna’s sports no .
    Ka kite ano P.S I could be water boy lol

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