Open Mike 28/09/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:03 am, September 28th, 2018 - 142 comments
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142 comments on “Open Mike 28/09/2018”

  1. Jenny 1

    Rule by thuggery

    Waka-jumping bill passes into law after heated debate
    (But not by those who should have opposed it. They kept their silence.)

    Justice Minister Andrew Little said no individual MP should be able to defy the decision of voters and change the proportionality of Parliament

    I have two names for Andrew Little… Mike Minogue and Marilyn Waring

    1. What’s the use of an opposition party if they are not allowed to lobby Government MPs to back opposition legislation?

    2. Why do we have private members bills, if Government MPs are not allowed to vote for them, on pain of being expelled, not just from the government, but from parliament?

    3. Why do we have back bench MPs, when they can’t vote against the cabinet, on pain of being expelled from parliament?

    4. What is the purpose of parliamentary debate, if it is not to sway government members away from some decided government action or inaction?

    From now on we have an elected dictatorship, where a government, nay a cabinet, can do, what ever they like, with zero checks and balances.

    1. Where private member’s bills are a waste of time. 2. Where heroes like MInogue and Waring would be hounded out of parliament. 3. Where back bench MPs are powerless seat warmers. 4. Where parliamentary debate is pointless.

    New Zealand has replaced Westminster style democracy, with something new, with something different.

    The test will come, when one day, a government cabinet does something so repugnant, so out of step with what they were voted into power on, that an MP or even a group of government MPs are moved to oppose it.

    Maybe someone could tell me what will happen on that day?

    • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 1.1

      “The test will come, when one day, a government cabinet does something so repugnant, so out of step with what they were voted into power on, that an MP or even a group of government MPs are moved to oppose it.”

      It’s already happened – check Jim Anderton and his opposition to the repugnant unelected policies of the 3rd Labour government.

    • Dukeofurl 1.2

      jenny
      I think you are very uninformed on what back benchers can and cant do.

      labour Mps are bound by caucus rules to vote with what caucus decides on legislation. This has been a long standing rule from the beginnings of the party . has nothing to do with legislation.

      National isnt as rigid ( as your 2 MPs listed show) but electorate MPs have more freedom , a list MP would certainly not get back into parliament.

      Your 2 Mps were from before MMP and the proportionality of parliament is now paramount as its the way numbers are calculated from the party vote.

      • alwyn 1.2.1

        “proportionality of parliament is now paramount”.

        Not quite. The proportionality claim applies only up until the Official results are declared. After that the number of seats a party holds can be altered by bye elections, and electoral petitions where a seat changes hands. This happened when Peters won Northland and his party, for the rest of the term, had one more seat than the electoral result entitled them to.
        If you truly required the election vote to be paramount I suppose you would have to have given National an additional list seat and not replace Winston in the New Zealand party list seats. If a completely new person was elected I imagine you would have to kick out one of his or her parties’ list members out and also give a list seat to National.
        What you would do if an Independent, or someone from a Party not already in Parliament, won the seat would be even worse.
        Not surprisingly the authors of the Electoral Law decided there had to be finality and later lapses from proportionality would have to be allowed.

        • Dukeofurl 1.2.1.1

          The waka jumping legislation mirrors that.
          Electorate Mps that are forced from parliament means a by election will occur, which may not restore proportionality but at least its the electors choosing.
          Plus its been 1 MP in 25 years , while how many MPs have jumped parties ?

          List Mps are replaced in the normal way- to maintain proportionality. Thats why its done that way.

          • alwyn 1.2.1.1.1

            I think you could class both Turia quitting and Labour losing a seat while the Maori Party gained one and Harawira, where the Maori Party lost a seat and Mana gained one as having the same effect.
            The might have been the same people but they did change the proportionality in the House. They were also MPs jumping ship.

            • Dukeofurl 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Waka jumping does the same thing. Electorate Mps must recontest their seat under a new party/independent if they wish to serve the rest of their term.
              Those situations wouldnt change. The voters than decide if the proportionality should be changed from final election count. isnt that a good thing ?

    • mikesh 1.3

      I haven’t really kept up with this bill. Does it actually bar supporting another party’s bill, or does it merely bar moving from one party to another.

      • Dukeofurl 1.3.1

        Moving from one party is what its meant to cover. Not voting for a particular piece of legislation might mean that MP is expelled from caucus.
        Not sure on the full details but waka jumping almost all cases wasnt about a particular vote on something. Some have left a party caucus because they missed out on a promotion or similar. Some MPs have been very self serving and only following their own interests.

    • Bearded Git 1.4

      MP’s can still vote against their party on non confidence and supply issues.

      Simon Bridges has railed against the bill and then yesterday refused to say he would not use its provisions-hypocrite.

      I support the bill because without it MMP can be thrown into chaos.

      An electorate MP can resign and fight a by-election if he/she feels strongly about some issue. List MP’s are elected by the Party and so by definition should not be permitted to vote against the Party on confidence and supply.

      • Dukeofurl 1.4.1

        of course Bridges will use it . He has a rat in his caucus who he wants gone. In the old days when it was just because the MP was a dickhead they could offer a golden parachute but this instance, my belief is that its an electorate MP, so could hold on against leaders wishes.

      • alwyn 1.4.2

        Didn’t you admire the way the Shaw managed to argue his case when he said he, and his acolytes would vote for it?
        He really does seem to be inhabiting the world on the other side of the looking glass.

        He says that the Green Party will change their Constitution so that their leaders cannot use the Bill. Quite how a Party Constitution can override the law of the land isn’t explained.
        He then wants National to change their rules so they can’t use it either.

        Come along James. There is a much simpler way.
        DON’T vote for the bill. Then nobody can use it and all your wishes will be achieved. What is so hard about that you foolish little fellow?

        • Dukeofurl 1.4.2.1

          Your logic is wrong.

          The Act has one of the triggers when party leader gives formal notice to the Speaker that an Mp has ‘departed’ from the Caucus. The Greens could refuse to do that if they so wished.

          The other trigger is that the MP gives formal notice to the Speaker, but as that will result in the seat being made vacant- why would they do that.

          http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2017/0006/latest/DLM7478605.html

        • Dukeofurl 1.4.2.2

          “He then wants National to change their rules so they can’t use it either.”

          or Bridges could categorically rule out using it while in opposition.

          Bridges wont say those words when asked !

        • SPC 1.4.2.3

          He is simply saying that those parties who oppose the legislation have the option of running their parties otherwise.

          Rather than being like National under Simon Bridges, voting against this while he is hunting down someone in his own caucus to example them and so intimidate the caucus into compliance with his leadership.

          And of course we know what Greens did to Graham in 2017 …

    • Draco T Bastard 1.5

      I have two names for Andrew Little… Mike Minogue and Marilyn Waring

      Neither of which changed the proportionality of government because in FPP each seat is technically independent.

      1. Nothing stopping them from doing so.
      2. What’s the point of being in a party if you’re just going to betray the principles and policies of that party?
      3. See 2.
      4. What’s the point of a party if the members don’t get a say in what their MPs do?

      Representative Democracy was designed as an elected dictatorship so as to ensure rich people had control of the nation. So, that’s working as intended.

      1. Private members bills aren’t a waste of time.
      2. Things have changed since MMP one of which is that the system has become more democratic. This is a step for more democracy.
      3. Back bench MPs are pretty busy representing their constituents to cabinet.
      4. Has it ever been anything but? I’d rather policy was decided on the science and not on biased debate.

      New Zealand has replaced Westminster style democracy, with something new, with something different.

      OH NOES, things have changed and aren’t how I remember it, OH, WOE IS ME

      /sarc

      Westminster style of democracy was always a sham of a democracy.

      Maybe someone could tell me what will happen on that day?

      The government collapses and we have another general election?
      Or how about we have a referendum instead and see if the people want it or not?

      But the most important point is that MPs are in parliament to represent their parties unless they’re independents and then their solely their to represent their constituents which is still not themselves. Parties represent their members.

      Really, you don’t seem to understand democracy.

      • Dukeofurl 1.5.1

        Jenny has a Sound of Music view of Westminster type Parliaments.

        Every MP will say after they left parliament that they voted for things they didnt believe in.

        eg Chester Borrows
        He admitted that behind closed doors he had argued against National’s overhaul of bail laws after a campaign to toughen bail laws following the murder of Christie Marceau in 2011.
        “Yes, I did but as you can tell you don’t always win the argument.
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12087834

        Only rarely is there a free vote.

        The Anti smacking legislation repeal was opposed by Key and he forced his Mps to let it be even after a referendum

        • Draco T Bastard 1.5.1.1

          Only rarely is there a free vote.

          The question is if it should even be free and what restraints should be on it. An MP voting their conscience can, and has, gone against their constituents wishes. We’ve seen it time and time again which is a large part of how we ended up shifting from FPP to MMP. Nobody who voted Labour in 1984 voted for even more capitalism but for less. What they got was not what they wanted.

      • JohnSelway 1.5.2

        “Representative Democracy was designed as an elected dictatorship so as to ensure rich people had control of the nation.”

        Citation need

  2. OnceWasTim 2

    Brian Easton on our Public Service

    https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/is-there-public-service-in-our-public-service

    worth a read, and I’d be interested in what other contributors and commenters on TS think – especially those public servants and retired public servants.

    Also, the way our Councils operate

    • Carolyn_Nth 2.1

      Ah. the 1980s – such an inspirational time when NZers as one challenged the world status quo.

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/367450/me-too-must-become-we-too-jacinda-ardern-delivers-un-address

    • SaveNZ 2.2

      +1000 OnceWasTim – compulsory readying and great insights from Brian Easton. Totally explains one of our big reasons for NZ low productivity and the failures of many organisations in NZ, from our health system management (the actual doctor and medical part of it seems pretty robust, it is the management of the health system that like mouldy middlemore spending money on the wrong things that is the problem), Fletcher building with the rise of the no nothing board of generic managers and how it’s costing more to contract everything out in management fees that actually keeping it in house and using the money on all the middle men on the actual services!

      Sad to see this review is just a rubber stamp of the existing, with the 6 week timeline. Many people have become tired of putting in their views when it is just a waste of time, as the decisions are already made. That’s why increasingly people don’t bother publicly submitting their views, time and time again they are ignored and now only lobbyists do it while being paid, rather than ordinary folks who seem these days to be the most objective about most issues than those ‘experts’ being paid to present a view point or those who what to shift benefit into their direction.

  3. Sanctuary 3

    Interesting line in the this piece on Corbyn meeting with EU officials – https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/27/i-will-work-to-avoid-national-disaster-of-no-deal-brexit-corbyn-tells-eu

    “…EU leaders have also insisted on their right to go over the head of the European commission and strike mini-deals with the UK in the event of a no-deal scenario …”

    In other words, the arrogant and techocratic European commission is in danger of over-playing it’s hand and being sidelined by the democratic governments that make up the EU – which would be a very good thing indeed.

  4. Cinny 4

    Any word on the national party leaker? How long has it been now? Does simon think everyone has forgotten about it?

    • Chris T 4.1

      Probably having coffee with the Labour party leaker

      • Dukeofurl 4.1.1

        Peters has said if Bridges doesnt do a ‘reveal’ , he will do so.
        Why do you think there has been an MP from national coming up with allegations against Peters.

        • Chris T 4.1.1.1

          Winston swore blind the Chinese were buying Huka Lodge

          We can kind of take what he says with a grain of salt

          Have no idea what you are talking about with the second sentence.

          His obvious dodgy dealings with the police job?

          • Dukeofurl 4.1.1.1.1

            Key swore blind that ‘no matter what’ they were going to recover the Pike River men, and ‘anyone who said otherwise was playing with your emotions’
            Thats just one of his fabrications….

            So your point is ?

            • alwyn 4.1.1.1.1.1

              He didn’t actually. You, and I, may believe that was what he said but it wasn’t that at all.
              Ardern and Peters follow the same line. So, of course did Helen Clark. It is quite easy for any skilled politician to say something and to have people think they heard something else.
              Look at Winston’s statement about who invited him to Haumaha’s do at the marae where you think he said he was invited by the then Government. It sounded like that if you heard him but with the punctuation he puts in that wasn’t really what he said at all.

              • Dukeofurl

                The video of his promises says exactly those words for Key.

                Transcript of main part:

                “”The first thing is I’m here to give you absolute reassurance, we’re committed to getting the boys out, and nothing’s going to change that. So — when people try and tell you we’re not, they’re playing, I hate to say it, but they’re playing with your emotions.”

                So thats your argument now . We believe based on actual words he said while the alternate Key reality is what matters ?
                At the end of Keys time ,on another matter, chief of staff Eagleson summed it up by claiming.
                “The documents may contradict the PM on this matter but what the Pm said is still correct”

                • alwyn

                  That is a very selective extract isn’t it?
                  He also said, oma number of occasions that money wasn’t a constraint. It was the fact that it couldn’t be done safely that was the problem.
                  Tell me, do you still believe that Andrew Little, and Winston Peters will lead the charge down to the workings or that it will all fade away with the excuse that we tried but we couldn’t do it.

                  • Dukeofurl

                    Listen to whole video. Im not having a selective extract that doesnt match the context.
                    Even worse Key denied later he had told the families what he said here.

                    ‘Couldnt be done safely’ is nonsense as has now been shown. It takes quite a bit of work to really know that answer and that wasnt done at the time.

                    Plus we now know the Police ‘could be’ covering up

          • chris73 4.1.1.1.2

            Thats going a bit far back, I’m waiting for Winston to release Bill Englishs emails

      • Anne 4.1.2

        Chris T @ 4.1

        Actually, that is funny. 😆

  5. Ankerrawshark 5

    Just watched Ms Arderns speech at the UN. Seriously moved to tears.

    She is an inspirational woman

    • Reality 5.1

      Jacinda is seriously inspiring, with charm, and a sense of humour. And the word ‘kindness’ that she uses often is one few would be brave enough to use because of then being called weak, but for goodness sake, the world and NZ need a lot more kindness. The tall poppy syndrome types and usual right wingers and will be frothing in their coffee. NZ is lucky to have her as our PM.

      I have found people who never bother to talk politics have commented on the impression Jacinda has made.

      • Bewildered 5.1.1

        Horses for courses I guess I find her painful and virtue signalling with little substance as a PM But nice on personal level

        • AB 5.1.1.1

          Interesting how any enunciation of genuine principles is now ‘virtue signalling’.
          By genuine principles, I mean principles that aren’t simply disguised forms of self-interest such as the right’s obsession with ‘personal responsibility’ – but actually and truly place others before self.

    • Carolyn_Nth 5.2

      Very good in climate change and the need for a positive global response.

      But the 1980s when NZers (apparently as one) challenged the world status quo?
      A selective re-writing of history.

      The 1980s was NZ as a country divided, and those divisions have remained ever since.

      David Lange MKII. Very good on aspirational promoting of NZ internationally – but what about the nitty gritty of what’s actually happening in NZ? I’m not seeing the Labour cabinet leading any massive changes to reduce wealth and income inequalities so far.

      • marty mars 5.2.1

        Yes I have so much hope for this government but they have to deliver. I have concerns about the cult of personality building around jacinda – it can lead to overconfidence and believing the hype – time will tell – for me building a better international rep is a nice to have, not essential and less important than so many other things. I still hold a lot of hope.

        • Carolyn_Nth 5.2.1.1

          Yes. There are many aspirational things in Ardern’s speech that I would like to see the government and NZ as a whole deliver. But the signs are more for half-way measures so far.

          I also do not like the cult of celebrity – whether it’s John Key, Obama, or Ardern (Ardern’s government preferable to Key’s, and to Obama’s, too. The rise of the cult of personality came with 1980s neoliberalism – and it has still yet to decline.

          Curious though, that while Ardern is at the centre of a cult of personality (not all her own doing) she lauds NZ as:

          We are a self-deprecating people. We’re not ones for status. We’ll celebrate the local person who volunteers at their sports club as much as we will the successful entrepreneur.

          Well, maybe NZ was like that once, but it is the entrepreneurs and the media personalities that get the massive share of status these days.

        • Bewildered 5.2.1.2

          + 1 it’s all talk and optics at the moment

      • miravox 5.2.2

        Yes, she was brilliant in that setting, but I did a little humpf at the air-brushing of the neo-liberal turn as well.

        And at the rosy glow of the NZ psyche the many people like to think it is. Maybe she’s working on the basis of, if you say it often enough it becomes true? In that, she probably has a point – leaders set the tone. I certainly hope she can follow through with it.

        “I’m not seeing the Labour cabinet leading any massive changes to reduce wealth and income inequalities so far.”

        Yeah, a bit of chipping away (i.e. govt salary freezes and some improvements for the lower paid) but I’m hoping the scene is being set for something more substantial.

        • ankerawshark 5.2.2.1

          I have never been under any Illusions that Labour will deliver fully on a left wing agenda. There are too many influencing that this doesn’t happen. I suspect a lot of MP’s in Labour really would love radical change but they know some issues are political suicide and if they don’t moderate their stance they will go. Then National will get back in and boy have they been imho catastrophic for many NZDers.

          Thinking about Ardern, one of the things that set’s her apart is her genuine genuineness (if that makes sense). Anyone can say trendy things but I think she really really means them.

  6. Muttonbird 6

    Dear old Chris Trotter is thinking along the lines I proposed yesterday.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/09/28/cto-gate-smoke-gets-in-our-eyes/

    Not sure if even Boag could have dreamed this one up from the beginning but she’s certainly neck deep in it now.

    A bit more pressure needs to be applied to Mr Handley I think since he is walking away with $107K of our cash.

    But then as Sactuary says in the comments, this is beltway stuff and no-one really cares.

    P.S. Here’s Handley trying to deny his links to the National Party…

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/107440994/derek-handley-refuses-to-confirm-or-deny-links-to-former-national-party-president-michelle-boag

    At least some journalists are asking the question.

    • Herodotus 6.1

      I read that Mr Handley was “But many months later Handley was verbally offered the $400,000 government role.”and “Hipkins also confirmed that Curran had communication with Handley between July 30, the date of the final panel interview for the CTO role, and August 24. She had offered Handley the role of chief technology officer by phone, Hipkins said.”
      If no agreement was signed, why then “Handley has been paid out $107,000 after being offered the role a month ago then having his contract terminated when the Government put a halt to the process.” and 3 months when the job was ONLY offered in August a few weeks ago ??
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12127374
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/107416614/derek-handley-met-with-labour-party-president-and-spoke-with-pms-chief-of-staff-about-job

      • shadrach 6.1.1

        AFAIK for compensation to be payable there has to be more than just an offer of employment. Handley would have to have accepted the offer, including confirming key elements of the role.

        There would appear to be a lot more to this story than we know, and there seems little doubt the PM has been closely involved throughout. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12132720

        • Gabby 6.1.1.1

          I doubt it shadders.

        • ankerawshark 6.1.1.2

          Shadrach a political party broadcast on behalf of Simon Bridges (drafted by Michelle Boag).

          No there really is nothing to this story. A job offer was made verbally then withdrawn. Man got a pay out and apology. the way Hindley is acting now (like a big cry baby IMHO) no one will want to employ him………..

          • shadrach 6.1.1.2.1

            “No there really is nothing to this story.”
            Yet it is still playing out across all forms of the media.

      • Herodotus 6.1.2

        Just found this “But before he signed a contract, the job was re-scoped and he was offered a $107,500 payout instead.
        Really, nothing signed and “we” paid for 3 months salary !!!
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/107440994/derek-handley-refuses-to-confirm-or-deny-links-to-former-national-party-president-michelle-boag

        • Dukeofurl 6.1.2.1

          A verbal agreement is still a contract. It just doesnt have all the written extras in a formal contract. But still an offer and acceptance has occurred.

          For the life of me I dont understand why the offer had to be rescinded. Yes , second thoughts happens much more than you think, but the big picture was there was a role which he seemed to be highly qualified/get things done and he deserved the chance to do so.

          • shadrach 6.1.2.1.1

            There was also some concern within the IT community over Handley’s appointment (eg https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/29-08-2018/nz-tech-is-losing-it-over-the-idea-of-derek-handley-as-cto-of-new-zealand/). I rate Woods, and I wonder if she just saw a way to cauterize this whole mess in ‘one fell swoop’.

            • Dukeofurl 6.1.2.1.1.1

              The Spinoff is hardly a reliable source. Its only a pop up media wannabes who only survive because Stuff and NZME feeds them crumbs so as to make it look like their is a ‘media plurality’ while their court cases was ongoing.

              You can tell this from the start of its story:
              “Much of New Zealand’s tech community has reacted with derision to a report entrepreneur Derek Handley is all-but-certain to soon be announced as New Zealand’s first chief technology officer. The critiques, which erupted on Twitter…..

              Their sources are twitter ? And the Much of NZs tech community…really .

              The point is that CTO isnt representing the ‘Community’ , its a government job. And I dont think it was in charge of spending the Governments 100s millions on IT.

              And remember those 60 applicants who missed out, they could make some noise.

              • shadrach

                The Spinoff is not the source, it is the medium by which voices are expressed.

                “The point is that CTO isnt representing the ‘Community’ , its a government job. ”
                The government website advertising the position includes this within the position overview:
                “Planning for future workforce needs and the development of new skills”, and
                “Ensuring all our communities are supported to improve their digital access and build equity.”
                https://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/digital-economy/cto
                Clearly there was an expectation of a close relationship with the ‘community’.

            • lprent 6.1.2.1.1.2

              Sure was. Personally I have absolutely no interest in the government sector locally. But looking through that spinoff article, he doesn’t sound useful for the role.

              To be worthwhile it’d need a tech head at enterprise levels, preferably with hands on experience of delivering projects. Either IT project manager or development.

              You really don’t need someone orientated towards sales and promotion. Good talkers but they have no ability to judge if something will actually work.

              • shadrach

                “You really don’t need someone orientated towards sales and promotion. Good talkers but they have no ability to judge if something will actually work.”
                Good grief that’s eerie. I’m working through something at work presently that has nothing to do with IT but that those words could perfectly apply to!

              • veutoviper

                Imo you nailed it. Well said.

          • Herodotus 6.1.2.1.2

            Thanks for that D, I thought it had to be signed by both parties.
            If as reported 24th Aug was the date, why 3 months “severance” payout, this is only a few weeks?
            Or was this “goodwill” for the crap Mr Handley incurred, but he has now contributed to increasing the scale of the mess ?
            I do like the term “Cauterise” 🙂 Pity the wound has festered and gone septic with bacteria or other microorganisms having colonised.

            • shadrach 6.1.2.1.2.1

              The quantum of severance is generally not related to the time period from appointment to cancellation. The 3 months will likely have been recommended by employment law advisors to the government as being generous enough to make the whole thing go away. Another part of cauterising the affair!

            • lprent 6.1.2.1.2.2

              Contacts are agreements in law – verbal or otherwise The only thing that a written one does is to provide the details independent of the participants.

              It sounds to me like they had a valid verbal contract.

    • Muttonbird 6.2

      And here is the Politik article Trotter refered to:

      http://politik.co.nz/en/content/politics/1440/Michelle-Boag-involved-in-Handley-affair-Michelle-Boad-Derek-Handley-Jacinda-Ardern.htm

      In it are such gems as:

      Most recently (Boag) was named as the person who had introduced Saudi Arabian businessman George Assaf to McCully; a meeting that led to the development of the controversial agri hub in Saudi Arabia.

      I knew Boag was corrupt but I did not know that she was that corrupt.

      Harman admits:

      In 2013 Prime Minister John Key faced a barrage of Opposition questions over the appointment of Ian Fletcher to be head of the GCSB.

      Fletcher was an old schoolmate and family friend of Key who “forgot” that he had phoned him to persuade him to apply for the GCSB job.

      On that scale Ardern is not guilty of much.

      Then asks:

      But with a highly skilled political operator like Boag in the background, National’s questions in Parliament now take on a new light.

      Were they trying to set Ardern up?

      What other information do they have?

      Indeed. Dirty Politics is back with a vengeance. It’s up to the rest of us to push back and shine a light whenever and wherever we can.

      • adam 6.2.1

        This is why we should not throw around the term ‘conspiracy theory’.

        Because when there really are conspiracies, it’s harder to talk about them. In this case Boag and her doggie dealings.

      • alwyn 6.2.2

        “I knew Boag was corrupt but I did not know that she was that corrupt.”.
        Wow, she introduced someone to McCully and that makes her corrupt?
        A Labour MP once introduced me to the, then new, Russian Ambassador. Actually it was so long ago I guess he was the USSR Ambassador. Should I have a fit of the vapours and claim that makes the Labour MP an agent of the Comiterm?
        Come on, get real.

        edit. I have just checked and found the Comiterm was dissolved in 1943 and it wasn’t quite that long ago.

        • Dukeofurl 6.2.2.1

          But Alwyn you werent trying to do a business deal with the Russians,
          McCully shouldnt be involved in doing deals with the governments money when hes foreign Minister.
          He should have resigned from Parliament and set up shop as ‘Muzzas Export and Import’- all farm animals covered.

          • alwyn 6.2.2.1.1

            “McCully shouldnt be involved in doing deals with the governments money when hes foreign Minister”.
            Really? Suppose that the Western Samoan Government want to get New Zealand to finance an extension to a hospital. It is considered to be a suitable use of New Zealand aid. The hospital is owned by a charitable trust.

            Are you going to tell me that Winston shouldn’t have anything to do with it because that would be doing a deal with the Government’s money?
            Or that the Shane Jones Slush Fund should be shut down because that is the Minister doing deals with the Government’s money?
            Or every Minister should be neutered?

            Because that is what Minister’s do. That is their reason for being there in the end. They are there to make the choices about what Governments should spend our money on.

      • Ngungukai 6.2.3

        Likewise Boag was one of the “fix it” people involved with Fay Richwhite & the Winebox Enquiry ?

        These issues and the people involved needs some sunlight and sanitation so we are all 100% sure that we are living in a functioning democratic democracy ?

    • shadrach 6.3

      Boag is poison – everything she touches is poison. But blaming this on ‘dirty politics’ is a poor attempt to justify incompetence.

      • Muttonbird 6.3.1

        Just not entirely sure how the supposed incompetency of the process made it into Melissa Lee’s inbox in the first place…

        As you rightly say everything Boag touches is poison. And she’s touching Derek Handley right now.

        • shadrach 6.3.1.1

          “Just not entirely sure how the supposed incompetency of the process made it into Melissa Lee’s inbox in the first place…”

          Good question. Although Lee had the info on Curran’s undisclosed meeting with Carol Hirschfield. And this is the woman who once “told a candidates’ meeting that the SH20 Waterview Connection could divert criminals from South Auckland away from the electorate.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Lee).

          Has Lee undergone some competency transformation, or is it just that Curran was such a walking disaster?

          • Dukeofurl 6.3.1.1.1

            Lee is using questions from nationals Mps. Its not a competency transplant from some one who has been invisible in 9 years in parliament and still requires a captains pick to get a high list place.

            • shadrach 6.3.1.1.1.1

              “Lee is using questions from nationals Mps. ”
              That just pushes the question back one step. How did the information end up in their ‘in-boxes’?

              • Dukeofurl

                hacking ?

                Farrar boasted last year that in the early part of Clark government national had one of ‘their’ office printers configured on the labour caucus network.
                An a junior national staffer with the same name as Mike Moore was on the labour email group. Mike Moore didnt use email at that time.

                Farrar was known as an IT geek and worked in parliament for Shipley and English at that time so I dont think these occurrences were coincidences

                hacking has moved on a long way since then.

        • Ngungukai 6.3.1.2

          Asian Spy Network ?

      • Anne 6.3.2

        … blaming this on ‘dirty politics’ is a poor attempt to justify incompetence.

        Yes and no. Let’s not forget who was responsible for this mess – Clare Curran. She is the one who omitted to mention a private meeting/communication she had with Handley which started the controversy. Add a few more associated factors and that seems to be where the incompetence label lies. Megan Woods – who is rapidly becoming one of the top ministerial performers – is the one trying to clear up the mess.

        But now we know Michelle Boag is involved, and given her track record… we can be fairly sure ‘dirty politics’ of one sort or another has entered the arena.

        I agree its an attempt to set up Jacinda Ardern at a time when she’s thousands of miles away on the world stage, and can’t give of sufficient time to respond to the accusations.

        When the cat’s away………

        • shadrach 6.3.2.1

          I agree with your assessment of Woods and Curran, and yes Boag’s clumsy and filthy fingerprints seem to be all over this. But ‘dirty politics’, well that term could be applied to much of what passes for normal political activity. On all sides. If you want an example I’ll quote from the excellent Chris Trotter article MuttonBird referred to above at https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/09/28/cto-gate-smoke-gets-in-our-eyes/

          “When Mike Williams flew across the Tasman in search of dirt on John Key…”

    • Anne 6.4

      Muttonbird @ 6

      Did a bit of research on the PR consultant, Julie Landry – in other words I googled her name. 😉

      Won’t touch Facebook with barge pole so limited to what I found.

      She’s in a similar PR business role as Michelle Boag so they will know one another well. She lives somewhere in the Epsom/Remuera region of Auckland. Got a kid who goes to an Epsom school (lot of private schools in that part of town) and was a big fan of John Key’s attempt to change the NZ flag.

      Nothing in concrete of course but if I was betting person I’d pick a National voter – at the least.

    • Dukeofurl 7.1

      Tamahere is as much to the right in labour as Goff.
      His history of development with the Maori trust shows hes no saint as far as special deals go.
      Then there is how the Councils organisations work, they have their own board and CEO
      The Mayor has very little say and has to have a majority of council to be aligned on every issue to even make broad guidelines.
      There is a lot of eveidence that pepperpotting works and as others have pointed out if you have 30-40% in one development the numbers will be made up elsewhere.

      • adam 7.1.1

        Wow, a classic example of attack the man, and not the message.

        Do your own slow clap Dukeofurl

        • marty mars 7.1.1.1

          He made a statement and then provided evidence that was about WHAT HE HAD DONE not who he is or judgements like he is scum or something – . Calling him as much to the right as goff within labour is not an attack the man statement imo.

          I think you may need to discern more before jumping to conclusions.

          And I agree with your post. Good on John for chucking his feedback in.

          • adam 7.1.1.1.1

            Who gives a rats if John is to the right of Genghis Khan, to the point he raised with council.

            As it read, it was an attempt to discredit John, by what he had done. If you don’t know John is fast and lose with contracts, then you have not been paying attention. But again, let me reiterate, that has nothing at all do do with what he said, except to attempt to discredit him.

            • marty mars 7.1.1.1.1.1

              This is your issue it seems – are you able to consider a person AND what they do and say. You say who gives a rats arse? Anyone into politics I’d say.

              As I said – discernment

              discernment

              noun
              the ability to judge well.

              I can’t be bothered with angry people today so that’s it for me with you. Have a good one.

              • adam

                Get a grip mate. I said nothing more than on this topic John was on point, and to bring in anything else in is not a discernment, it’s an attempt to discredit.

                Discredit

                verb
                cause (an idea or account) to seem false or unreliable.

        • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.2

          Did you Adam not read the last part of my comments ?
          I made the ideology part based on my view that Adam sees everything through ideological blinkers, which of course he can. Strange that the blinkers disappear for Tamihere

          Tamihere is toxic based on his past – and I didnt even mention his misogyny.

          “Waipareira Trust chief executive and prospective politician John Tamihere has used his talkback show on Radio Live to finally respond to reports the trust cleared the way for a $500,000 loan in 2008 as a reward for his leadership.”

          The underclass ? yeah right.
          I personally think Tamihere has certain leadership qualities but keep him away from ‘development projects’

          The idea that he could run for mayor with his personal issues is laughable.
          http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8552942/Tamihere-dodges-Waipareira-Trust-loan-queries

          But back to the social housing development. Its beyond believable that the Council /Panuku is spending up large on the Americas Cup at all, when housing should be priority 1 -10

          • adam 7.1.1.2.1

            Again, just in case you miss the above, I don’t care about his past. That is generally brought up by people who don’t like what he has to say.

            Oh and by the way, just in case you missed all the good work Wiapareira – do here is a link to just some of their programmes.

            https://www.waipareira.com/support-for-you-and-your-whanau/pepi-tamariki/

            Don’t be so fast to condemn.

            • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.2.1.1

              Thats right . Waipareira does good stuff. I dont see why a charitable based group should be involved in deals to provide over the top payments to those in charge.
              Let Tamihere stick to his knitting and not make a noise about the Mayoralty where his character will quite rightly come into question.

      • Molly 7.1.2

        Panuku development is selling off properties that would be very good for social housing, if that was a priority for Auckland Council. It isn’t, which adam quite rightly points out.

        While no fan of Tamihere, in this case, he makes valid points.

  7. Koff 8

    Dead right. Look at the way the antisemitism slur was made time and time again against UK Labour and yet the party just ploughed ahead with developing very credible and progressive social democratic policies which are likely to genuinely transform the UK if Labour get a chance to win a GE. I hope that JA has got the message that the National Party is not ‘kind’ and will do whatever it can to destroy the Coalition Government’s image, but it’s no use expecting the MSM here to show any kind of balance.

  8. Janet 9

    There is a seriously effective challenge to pest control with 1080 and it is considerably more economic.
    Can you pass the message around .

    https://givealittle.co.nz/project/puketi-forest-needs-your-help

    • Dukeofurl 9.1

      Ground based control has been around for ages and is used in area where farms and forests mix, ie shelter belts and treed gullies.
      I understand its a lot more expensive to do

    • Koff 9.2

      Janet, as the company says in their own blurb, these traps are for use wherever traps can be placed. manually.

      “We really want to show where a person can walk there is an alternative to aerial 1080.”

      The benefit of them, like Goodnature traps, is that they automatically kill and remove possums without having to be manually attended to. However, they cannot replace 1080 in the vast areas of rugged NZ forest that are not accessible on foot. Even though Puketi and other remnant Northland forests are relatively small, much of them are inaccessible on foot. 1080 is still the only viable pest control mechanism available.

      • Dukeofurl 9.2.1

        At the $20 per ha claim , doesnt sound like they know the costs of ground based control with experienced people AND the followup to see that its done by having ‘line checks’ .
        With ground based control knowledge of the work and how to do it safely and effectively is paramount.
        Just getting a low price and hoping it will be fine doesnt cut it these days.

        • mauī 9.2.1.1

          Working on the basis of 1 trap per hectare (1 trap every 100 metres), that is 2,500 traps for the Puketi forest, covering the entire area – no gaps or the operation is a waste of time.

          Tracks have to be cut by hand in a grid pattern over the whole area of the 2,500 hectares. That means going through or around gullys, streams, rivers, bluffs, etc. Tracks have to be clearly marked so they can be followed and the traps have to be set up, 1 every 100 metres. Each worker can carry say 15 traps maximum in a backpack, so we’re getting into hundreds of trips to take the traps in to begin with, probably kilometres away from roads too.

          So now that they’re set up, every few months each trap has to be refilled with poison. Again people with heavy packs walking kilometres of rough terrain very slowly to service each one.

          I would guess the $20 a hectare budget for the year would probably be blown well before you got half the tracks cut.

      • Janet 9.2.2

        So you are not interested to see this trialed in Puketi forest? The designer / inventor
        of this pest control device and system has worked the Puketi forest blocks as a conventional pest contol operator for many years. He knows the terrain and he knows what he is claiming to be true because extensive data and research has already been done.

  9. ankerawshark 10

    Shadrach those headlines are completely mis-leading. as were the one about the PM taking a close interest in the appointment.

    Its a bull shit story. Handley’s behaviour since the job was withdrawn is enough to make any future employers run a million miles IMO……..

    Good to know most NZders won’t give a stuff about this. Way more interest in Arderns stellar perfomance in NY. Everything she has said and done their has been outstanding………

    Why doesn’t National spend its time coming up with policy and direction rather than digging at these non issues.. They are in danger of becoming the boy who cries woolf.

  10. ankerawshark 11

    I have never been under any Illusions that Labour will deliver fully on a left wing agenda. There are too many influencing that this doesn’t happen. I suspect a lot of MP’s in Labour really would love radical change but they know some issues are political suicide and if they don’t moderate their stance they will go. Then National will get back in and boy have they been imho catastrophic for many NZDers.

    Thinking about Ardern, one of the things that set’s her apart is her genuine genuineness (if that makes sense). Anyone can say trendy things but I think she really really means them.

    • Dukeofurl 11.1

      read the manifesto , you might find out what they SAY they will do ( subject to coalition)
      https://www.labour.org.nz/policy

      Its nonsense to think your idea of a ‘left wing agenda’ is remotely under consideration as shown by this word salad
      “I suspect a lot of MP’s in Labour really would love radical change but they know some issues are political suicide…”

      The party has a policy council, its not just about Mps thoughts on issues. You have to get them approved by Policy Council amoung other things

      https://www.labour.org.nz/party_resources
      How do we craft our policy?

      This may surprise you !

      • ankerawshark 11.1.1

        Ok, Dukeofurl………I got it wrong. Busy day at work.

        My point was is that when in Govt it is not always possible to do what the manifesto says eg Eugenie Sage over the water bottling issue. I probably didn’t articulate it that well………………A bit harsh imho of you to call it a word salad………….but don’t worry, I can take it.

  11. Cinny 12

    One of the girls at Motueka High keeps pouring meths on the walls of the girls toilets during school time and then setting the place on fire.

    That’s twice this week, both times during school hours.

    Hope she gets the help she needs, someone could have been killed this time. Scary for the students.

    • veutoviper 12.1

      That’s dreadful, Cinny. Presumably the staff know who and are trying to get help for her. Take care all of you.

      • Cinny 12.1.1

        Thanks VV, it now turns out that it is a different person than the one who started the fire earlier in the week. A copy cat, which is disturbing. Thankfully it’s now school holidays.

        The girl who started the first fire is now getting the help she needs which is great.

    • millsy 12.2

      The school will probably just lock the toilets, such is the trend at the moment.

  12. ianmac 13

    Great Brave new steps:
    “The Government has moved to establish an independent body tasked with addressing miscarriages of justice.

    Justice Minister Andrew Little has introduced a bill to the House which would establish a Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) – an independent body for addressing miscarriages of justice.”

    Thanks to No Right Turn we have this extremely good news. There may be more than 20 people who are in prison wrongly.

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2018/09/finally.html

  13. Ed 15

    New Zealand Labour Party.
    Please note.

    • Ed 15.1

      The key words are in bold.

      These streets were once full of spirit and hope. A proud community, where an honest day’s work could earn you a decent day’s pay. Years of austerity have ripped the heart out of this place, but that’s just part of the story.

      This has been decades in the making. We lost the factories. We lost the jobs. We lost confidence in our community. We lost control. Once the backbone of this country, we’ve been sold short by a political and economic system that’s been unchallenged for far too long.

      But change is coming. Labour has a plan to kickstart the economy in all the regions of our country. So that our economy works for everyone. Instead of standing idly by as jobs go overseas, we’ll invest in the UK. They do it in other countries and we’ll do it here.

      Creating good jobs, with decent wages. Not short term, insecure work but good jobs for the long term. And when more people are secure in their work, paid fairly and valued they’ll spend more of what they earn locally, and our communities will thrive again.

      But that’s just the start. We want to restore the pride in our towns and bring our high streets and communities back to life. Labour will do that by getting the money to where it’s needed. By setting up new regional investment banks whose priority won’t be casino style financial gambling, but investing in local people, local communities and local businesses.

      And with a National Education Service Labour will invest in the next generation. Decent schools, well paid teachers and smaller classes. We won’t sell our kids short. We’ll give them the support, the equipment and the confidence they need to flourish.

      We’ll help those struggling to find a home by building a million affordable new homes over the next decade, not as investment opportunities for the few, but real homes for the many.

      We will give control back to local people. Labour will bring back essential services into public ownership. No more rip-off energy and water, expensive and overcrowded trains. We’ll get them working in the interests of all of us.

      Together we’ll rebuild Britain. The time for tinkering at the edges is over. We need real and lasting change.

      It’s going to take a lot of work, but only Labour has the ideas and the determination to take on the challenge.

      Labour will change our economy so that it works for everyone because when you create a fairer society, we all share in the wealth that’s created. Together we will change this country for the better. For the many, not the few.

      • Stunned Mullet 15.1.1

        In short blah blah blah… and let us never forget blah !

      • Ad 15.1.2

        We did all of this already.

        Apart from that worker share ownership stuff which will never happen either there or here.

        We already own the post office, public water utilities, and still own the majority of most electricity generators.

        We already own our own major bank.

        We’ve already increased the minimum wage.

        We’re already rolling out our own massive house building programme.

        We’re already deep into consultation towards legislation for protecting renters rights.

        Good to hear Corbyn taking lessons from the Ardern government.

        He should come over here so we can tell him what the reality actually looks like.

      • Koff 15.1.3

        I think UK Labour’s Achilles heel, like the Tories, is Brexit, but they are at least presenting a more credible plan for addressing the inequities that were the root cause of the feeling of alienation that boosted the Leave vote and the influence of the far right. UK Labour seems to be on a roll and the next few months are definitely worth watching.

  14. Ad 16

    The Supreme Court nominee panel recommendation will come down to the votes of Senators Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, Jeff Flake, and Ben Sasse.

    It’ll be an interesting weekend for those Republican Senators.

    While I suspect Kavanagh’s nomination will be fine, there’s still a chance, a chance, that all Dem Senators will vote him down and enough Republicans will cross the floor against Trump.

    Just a wee chance.

  15. Koff 17

    They could contact the Puketi Trust (https://www.puketi.org.nz/), who already manage 5,500 hectares of Puketi using conventional traps. They have their own avenues of funding and would probably be keen to do anything to cut down the per hectare cost of trapping. The area accessible to trapping is one third of Puketi’s 15,000 hectares without more extensive trapping lines being cut.

    • Koff 17.1

      Oops meant to be in reply to Janet at 8.2.2

      • Janet 17.1.1

        Thanks but I think they have as they have worked that forest on pest control contracts using the usual, but less efficient and less cost effective DOC approved methods over the past decade.

      • Janet 17.1.2

        I checked it out for you … here is the reply.

        Dear Janet , thanks for your interest
        The $52,500 target, if successful , would compliment the work already done by Puketi Trust. They have done a really great effort. Unfortunately continued re invasion poses difficulty for standard traps alone to maintain.
        Puketi Trust have knowledge of our products. We can best assist their project by working the remaining area within Puketi forest and surrounding land holdings when and where permitted. We ourselves need to prove our enviromate system at landscape scale in areas that have no cut track net works.
        Tracking is not something I promote on such scale nor needed for operations that are not requiring repeated weekly or monthly checking and maintaining.
        Thanks for your interest again

  16. Ad 18

    Pretty bad that Professor Ford Ford had to front in such a macho, unregulated, media-powered environment.

    But, at the same time as Prime Minister Ardern was calling out the world to go from #Me Too to #We Too ….

    ….. our very own Colin Craig got to cross-examine a sexual assault complainant who was civil-suiting against him, live in court. That is truly heinous.

    We should look in the mirror.

  17. eco maori 19

    Kia ora Nation 25 year’s New Zealand First congratulations .
    The Allan Hall case there you go once again some police are honest but the one in charge of Allan case clearly was not they do act as Judge and jury all the time they target valuable people to take the fall.
    I did read that you were changeing jobs Lisa all the best Kia kaha .
    Ka kite ano P.S we need a Green economy environment

  18. eco maori 20

    Some music I like to listen to

  19. eco maori 22

    Kia ora Newshub Eco Maori gives his condolences to the people who have lost love ones in the Indonesian earth and tidal wave .
    I have my reservation’s about the Allan case I retract what I have said in my other post to Lisa on Nation. With the jersey he could have burnt one and brought another the rest of the case looks to shakey who keeps receipts .
    Winston has out lasted a lot of people who try to shut him out 25 years ago ka pai.
    Peter Jackson move on world war 1 Here is what I have to say Apirana Ngata the reason he gathered up tangata whenua to go to war was so the crown would treat Maori equally as European’s he was all about the well being of tangata whenua .
    We lost a lot of our tipuna in world war 2 more than any other culture these live’s that were lost was not in vain because we are still receiving the glory of our brave young tipuna of The 28 Maori Battalion .
    There is a good film on NZONSCREEN there is heap’s of old movies there.
    I like the film on Ngata .
    Ka kite ano Got the defence job E hoa Ka pai Nicky

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