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Open mike 28/02/2015

Written By: - Date published: 7:15 am, February 28th, 2015 - 200 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Carmel Sepuloni
Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

200 comments on “Open mike 28/02/2015 ”

    • adam 1.1

      So Sad.

    • Pasupial 1.2

      Great final tweet:

      “A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP”


    • freedom 1.4

      Change is the essential process of all existence

      R.I.P. Mr Nimoy

      • phillip ure 1.4.1

        um..!..these were lines penned by his scriptwriters..eh..?

        ..let’s not get too conflate-y..

        • freedom

          really phillip? That is your contribution to people honouring a legacy that expresses the rare symbiosis of a great actor and a globally respected character? 🙄

            • Once was Tim

              🙂 apparently! It’s too soon to give an opinion unless positive.
              Just checking tho’. We are allowed to call out Magaret Thatcher on her BS, yes? How about Frank Bainimarama and his Esmeralda jaunts?
              Any timeframe on when Sabin is a fair, dignified pluck?

              Christ! I HOPE like hell when it comes time for me to fertilise the fig tree, people won’t hold back. I already know who the false arsehole pretenders are anyway – and I’m picking they won’t have the guts to show up.

              • Comparing Leonard Nimoy to Thatcher and Bainimarama: such respect. So tasteful. Very classy. 🙄

              • Once was Tim

                Ekshully @ Phil ….. just the sort of attitude ….. nah I’m thinking they can’t cope! – better I STFU, but the comment was to do with the reason cnuts like that BBC icon and a few Kethlick priests got away with things for as long asa they did.
                I’m talking about attitude btw – NOT suggesting Nimoy was in that bracket (someone I actually admired) – Just your right to expression without people clutching their pearls in horros.
                Indeed – apparently its too soon to call a spade a spade. Get some fukkin learnings will ya!

                • my most (in)famous ‘too soon’..

                  ..was @ bfm the mon morn after diana copped it in that tunnel in paris…

                  .all around me was wailing and gnashing of teeth…

                  ..in the regular op-ed piece i did…i took the opportunity to curse the fact that her death/motherless-sons would revive the british royal family..

                  ..(which at that stage was seriously on the back-foot..republicanism as an option was widely discussed at that time..

                  ..and that all ended with that death..)

                  ..the looks of horror on the faces of the inhabitants of this ‘radical’ radio station after i finished..

                  ..were a sight to behold..

                  ..(and the switchboard ‘lit up’..as they say..)

                  ..and as it turned out..i was correct..eh..?

                  ..just ‘too soon’…

                  • so street and edgy lol – it’s called empathy and sensitivity – think about it and feelings of loss you may have felt recently

                    • we are talking princess diana..and spock..

                      ..a breeder for the royal family..

                      ..and a character from a crap tv show..(!)

                      ..figures of stature/real-change…?

                      ..as in mandela ?….yes….’empathy/sensitivity’..


                      (i once got to shake mandelas’ hand..and he put his other hand on my shoulder at the same time..

                      ..it was like a shock of electricity..he was one seriously ‘there’ dude..and yep..!..i cried when he died..)

                      (and i dare say some of those diana-grievers wd now feel a tad embarrassed about the significance they attached to that at that time..

                      ..my general loathing of the royal family..and all they stand/stood for..

                      ..just meant i just got there sooner than them..)

                      (and really..all i pointed out in my initial comment..

                      ..was that the ‘revered’-lines are not his..

                      .surely people didn’t believe they were…?

                      ..did/do they..?..)

                    • “a breeder”

                      God you’re an awful human being. Be as republican as you like, but I’m going to link to this comment next time you try to attack feminists for not caring about animal rights.

                  • northshoredoc

                    Gosh phil you’re so staunch.

                    With such attitudes it surprises me that you didn’t make biltong out of your recently deceased pooch and sell it on the side of the street along with some potted herbs.

                    • horrible comment – shows a lot about you – what a nasty shit you are

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Giving Phil a taste of his own medicine, well, I suppose it’s rather nasty medicine and so-on.

                    • Once was Tim

                      goose and gander I always think. I feel sorry at the passing of Nimoy like many others. I’m just not going to clutch my pearls if others feel differently or try to inflict my values on them. Nor do I expect them to inflict their values on me.
                      When there are assholes like (say) Whaleoil and his accomplices about, I’m not about to waste my energy on them. There are far better causes to worry about.
                      As I say, I’ll miss Nimoy (and many others), but I don’t EXPECT others to feel the same and if they drop a clanger or two from time to time, I’m not about to string ’em up.
                      (It never ceases to amaze me how quick some are to give PU a hard time over his attitude to various things, and his campaigning, whilst all the while harping on like a stuck record themselves.)

              • and um..!..the reality is that star trek was a pile of corny schlock when it was first made..

                (the ‘thorn birds’ of space-opera..(kim hill listeners will get that one..)

                ..and i couldn’t bring myself to watch it for those critical reasons…

                ..and i put down our fascination with spock down to our longtime/ongoing fascination with the possibilities of alien-life..

                ..and what that wd mean for us..

                ..and he was the first one we had that wasn’t green and issuing noxious gases..

                ..and one who seemed – to be ‘better’ ..in some ways – than us miserable humans..

                ..spock/trek-fandom is a manifestation of an existential-yearning..

                ..and it’s obvious glaring faults are glossed-over/ignored for those reasons..

                • Yeah, Phil doesn’t like Star Trek so no-one else should care either.

                  • no..just don’t expect me to..

                    (and i don’t even care enough to ‘not like’…

                    ..i am totally agnostic on the subject of nimoy..)

                    • TheContrarian

                      “and i don’t even care enough to ‘not like’…”

                      Yeah you care so little you have made several different posts on it

                    • i noted that scriptwriters were involved..

                      ..everything since then has been backlash..

                      ..(and awww..!!..a rightwing trekkie..?..how cute..!..

                      ..and what an anomaly..!..

                      ..do give us the rightwing reading of star trek..!

                      ..did the authoritarianism/strong-leader appeal..?..)

                    • TheContrarian

                      I’m not a right winger nor do have any love for Star Trek.

                      So you ain’t got shit and have spent most of this thread making comments about something you don’t even care about.

                    • it’s all about the journey..

                      (now that could almost qualify as a new spockism..)

                    • Picard101

                      If you don’t care, then why comment at all, other than to be a shit.

              • Realblue

                Worry not Tim you won’t be mourned or mocked, you’re not that interesting. Fuck off with your shabby self.

                • Once was Tim

                  Oh sorry Realblue – I wasn’t aware we knew each other – not even in the virtual reality sphere until now. Is there somewhere I can give you a ‘like’?

        • Murray Rawshark

          Would have been good to read the link first, Phil. Half the quotes are Spock and half are Leonard Nimoy.

          • phillip ure

            sorry murray..

            ..i just don’t care enough to read the link..

            ..and why should i..?

            ..83 yr old bit-player in a camp/corny tv series from the 60’s..

            ..he had a long life..good on him..!

            ..he lived long and prospered..

            ..but that is about it..

            • Once was Tim

              I preferred coming home from skool in Oz to watch George Reeves in Superman – now that was camp/corny. Nimoy was a bit of humour tho’ I must admit. It seems he’s been elevated to the opium of the people status though. Nothing wrong with a bit of escapism tho eh PU? Sanity is becoming more expensive these days.

            • Murray Rawshark

              “..i just don’t care enough to read the link..

              ..and why should i..?”

              Because if you had, your ignorant comment about the quotations being from scriptwriters may not have been made. Or is accuracy just another literary affectation that you feel constrains your creativity?

              And when and where did you shake Mandela’s hand?

              • @ st matthews in the city in ak….

                @ the ‘thank you’ gathering of anti-tour protestors..

                ..when he came here in the mid-90’s..

                • d’ya wanna hear about yoko onos’ birthday party too..?

                  (i’m having an attack of the ‘skinnys’ here..

                  ..name-dropping like a snowstorm..)

                • Murray Rawshark

                  Cool. It’s a shame that South Africa only had one of him. One hundred and it might be a better place today.

      • phillip ure 1.4.2

        and of course..nimoy s gone..

        ..but we do still have his doppelganger..

        ..green mp david clendon..eh..?

    • Colonial Rawshark 1.5


    • joe90 1.7

      RIP Mr Spock/Nimoy and thanks for the dreams and memories.

      btw, saw this interview a while ago, fascinating.


      And then there’s this.

  1. “..Bill Maher Blasts NFL Ban on Weed..

    ..Real Time host Bill Maher accused the National Football League on Thursday of hypocrisy –

    – for promoting efforts against domestic violence –

    – after years of doing the same for ‘official beer’ maker Anheuser-Busch.

    ‘We appreciate your sudden awareness of domestic violence’ – Maher said.

    ‘But then – right into the Budweiser commercial?

    Are you kidding me?

    Beer is responsible for more violence against women than the Taliban’..”



    (ed:..a great line from maher:..’the only sport marijuana-use cd improve –

    – wd be a hotdog-eating contest’..)

  2. Morrissey 3

    Clint Eastwood’s English Snipper should be a hit

    I can’t wait for the Clint Eastwood hagiography of this hero….


    Less than two years earlier, the heroic London Snipper would have been tolerated, or even lauded as a hero, if only he’d stuck to killing official enemies, like this bloke did….

  3. “..You’re Not the Boss of Me! – Why Libertarianism Is a Childish Sham..

    ..Libertarians believe they’re rebels –

    – but they are really political children who scream through tears..”



  4. gower just set a new benchmark in ‘soft’-interviews..

    ..letting key bullshit at will…

  5. ianmac 6

    Are they both right?
    One side of the Key War from Fran O’Sullivan “…Committing the New Zealand military to Iraq is the right thing to do.
    Not simply from a moral purpose – although that is highly important – but also because it is rational….
    …The Prime Minister hadn’t helped himself when he said that joining the coalition against Islamic State was “the price of joining the club”.

    If he had just added a rider that the “club” was that group of nations who had already committed troops to assist Iraq to repel Isis he may have achieved greater carriage for the Government’s argument that committing military to train Iraqi soldiers and provide support behind the wire was necessary.”

    And then John Armstrong’s very different one: “..If last Monday’s “misguided” decision by the Cabinet to dispatch a contingent to Iraq was the price of New Zealand’s membership of the exclusive Five Eyes intelligence-gathering “club” – as the Prime Minister admitted a month ago – what did that say about the transparency and credibility of the country’s supposedly “independent” foreign policy?…..
    The Cabinet decision has rather made nonsense of a core selling-point in New Zealand’s successful campaign for a seat on the United Nations Security Council”

  6. saveNZ 7

    John Key is increasing terrorist risks… totally agree with


    There’s no question that Emwazi was an extremist – that’s why MI5 was interested in him. But in this case, as in others, their heavy-handed tactics seem to have made things worse, not better, and pushed him over the edge into murder. Its the war on terror in miniature, where the US/UK’s abuses simply drive more people to terrorism. we’ve seen it over US torture, which is a recruiting poster for radicals. We’ve seen it over Iraq and Afghanistan, where the US invasion provided an endless stream of atrocities. And we’re seeing it in Australia at the moment, where Tony Abbott’s war on Muslims is fuelling rather than quenching domestic radicalism. And sadly, John Key seems to be marching us down exactly the same path. And the only people who do well out of such tactics are spies and terrorists, who seem to paradoxically need each other to survive.

  7. dv 8

    ON 3 NEWS last night there was talking up that IS would notice us and may do something like a video OR ….

    Sort of seemed like ‘Hey guys here we are here we are down here.”

    It seems to me the best thing now is to shut up.

  8. Has The Wetiko Finally Arrived In New Zealand Or Why John Key Lost It!

    • ianmac 9.1

      That photo trav! Wetiko in full power. Was that a real pic or has it been touched up. Even watshisname behind Key seems whipped up as well.

      • travellerev 9.1.1

        These are stills from the video made by a facebook mate! Nothing retouched there!

        • marty mars

          scary shit that photo – the mask slipping – ugly revealed, and dangerous

            • ropata:rorschach

              What a horrible bloodthirsty rant by Key. And his reeling off the number of Labour parties around the world that are pro war was just disturbing. The USA is doubling down on its mission to fuck up the Middle East.

              Here’s rationalwiki on ‘progressive’ parties in the anglo club:

              Taking a page from their British mothers, their Canadian brothers, and their American bosses cousins, Australian politics is dominated by two parties, the centre-right Australian Labor Party (who can’t spell) and the right-centre Liberal Party of Australia (who can spell but don’t own a dictionary). While Britain’s Liberal Democrats are in a coalition government, and Canada’s NDP became the Official Opposition, Australia is identical to America in having a two-party duopoly, where both parties are closely aligned in policy (even if they aren’t in rhetoric). To the credit of Canberra, they don’t have any true-blue nationalist parties that have any chance at anything…

    • Pasupial 9.2


      It’s a good read and cerainly a creepy image. However, there are a couple of typos. Firstly; “politicians where dubious at best”, where “where” should be; “were” (it’s always the ones that make it through the spell-checker that are hardest to catch!). Secondly; omitting the macron on Māori (which I wouldn’t mention except you managed the umlaut on naïve just fine). Personally; I’d add more commas and semi-colons too, but that’s just individual style.

    • The Murphey 9.3

      The twisted contortions seen operating as the political class in the western sphere are souls who have been corrupted by negative harming energy

      The faces and eyes tell all you need to know

  9. Pasupial 10

    This is interesting [WARNING linked article contains descriptions of torture; do not read if eating, or easily distressed]:

    Lama was arrested in 2013 after settling in St Leonard-on-Sea, East Sussex, with his family… Charged with presiding over the torture of two men – Janak Raut and Karam Hussain – while in charge of Gorusinghe barracks in Kapilvastu in 2005….

    “The authorities in this country have an obligation in cases where torture is alleged to have been committed if the alleged perpetrators are found within England.
    “This commitment to prosecute alleged torturers even if the torture happened in an entirely different country and continent is sometimes called the principle of providing no safe haven for torturers.”


    I think we are signatories to the same treaty, so any torturers who settle here in future will be liable to prosecution in a similar manner. What does this mean for our troops in Afghanistan who handed prisoners over to US soldiers for “enhanced interrogations”? How about those NZ soldiers may end up being in charge of ISIL prisoners who Iraq?

    • Clemgeopin 10.1

      I remember that the entire Nepal royalty was assassinated/massacred sometime ago. Was this torture incident related to that?

      Do the royals still rule or they finished and the communists in control now?

      If you know…

      • Pasupial 10.1.1

        This alleged torture was four years after the massacre:

        On 1 June 2001, there was a massacre in the royal palace. King Birendra, Queen Aiswarya, and seven other members of the royal family were killed. The perpetrator was Crown Prince Dipendra, who committed suicide (he died three days later)


        • Clemgeopin

          Thanks for that. I gasped when I read this bit from your link:

          “Factionalism inside the royal family led to a period of instability. In 1846 a plot was discovered revealing that the reigning queen had planned to overthrow Jung Bahadur Kunwar, a fast-rising military leader. This led to the Kot Massacre; armed clashes between military personnel and administrators loyal to the queen led to the execution of several hundred princes and chieftains around the country. Jung Bahadur Kunwar emerged victorious and founded the Rana Lineage and was later known as Jung Bahadur Rana”

          Shows that the wholesale mass murders of royal families is not a recent phenomenon there!

          I have not been to Nepal. I have been to the Himalayas and Darjeeling and met many Nepalese there. The common people of Napalese origin are very nice people.
          Have you visited there?

  10. `
    Murray Deaker’s comments on “Team” New Zealand:

    Dean Barker says he has had a gutsful of Team New Zealand. He is not on his own. I think the whole country has. We are sick and tired of the childish antics, the leaking of information when it suits, the unavailability to comment when it doesn’t. Most of all, we are fed up with the backstabbing and the public statements which defy common sense.
    Dalton should never have called a lay-day during the last America’s Cup. It should not have been his call. It should have been the sole right of Dean Barker to make that call, as skipper. Barker didn’t even know that Dalton had made the call. Dalton made the call for commercial reasons … some of the key sponsors hadn’t arrived in San Francisco and he wanted them to see the final victory. This decision, on its own, is so bad it should have led to his resignation.

    Who wants to put money into an organisation that was so badly structured that at its key moment in recent history it had a board of only one member? Who wants to put money into an organisation that loses an event when it leads 8-1 and requires only one more victory?

    In the history of modern sport this has to be the greatest choke of all time. Yet we have not been given any adequate explanation. We are of course entitled to one, because we have a $36 million stake in it.

    If this was a private syndicate, we would have no right to know anything. However, this is a team that revels in the title Team New Zealand, that raises money because it uses the name of our country and that thrives on our support, our patriotism. That comes at a cost. We need to know the facts and we need to know why the next challenge will lead to a success, not another failure.

    It is apparent that the Government, John Key and Steven Joyce particularly, have not realised the depth of feeling against Team New Zealand. If the Government funds Team New Zealand under its present leadership and structure, it will pay for it at the polling booths. I could not bring myself to vote for any party supporting the current bunch.

    • tc 11.1

      Team nz represents elitism and jobs for the boys typified by the arrogant dalton who deemed himself good enough to still be crew, we blew it in sanfranciso yet nobody got sacked.

      Just like rugby world in 07, boys club members like dalton and graham live a charmed life.

      • Alinghi vs. Team New Zealand: (how things have changed since 2003 — consumerism & corporations have won the public sphere)

        Main sponsor:
        A: Swiss billionaire’s personal fortune,
        NZ:`Family-of-five’ N.Z. companies

        Estimated Cost:
        A: $150 million,
        NZ: $85 million

        Boat name:
        A: Postmodern signifier; Brand with no meaning
        NZ: Country

        A: Postmodern swirls
        NZ: Silver Fern

        A: Worldwide headhunting
        NZ: Mostly N.Z. nationals

        Relationship to nation-state:
        A: None
        NZ: Considerable

        Operational foci:
        A: Individual `excellence’
        NZ: Team building

        A: Money/Global Marketing
        NZ: Country/Pride

        Leadership Orientation:
        A: Great men
        NZ: Team

        Syndicate Organisation:
        A: Corporation
        NZ: Whanau [Extended family]

        Links to Indigenality:
        A: None
        NZ: Considerable

        Historical Consciousness:
        A: None
        NZ: Considerable

        Focus of rewards:
        A: Private interests
        NZ: Public good

        Meaning of `home’:
        A: Poorly defined
        NZ: Well-defined

    • Paul 11.2

      Socialism for the rich.

  11. joe90 12

    Thankfully Mr Putin has taken personal control of the investigation.

    Polly Mosendz ✔ @pollyNYC

    “I’m afraid #Putin will kill me,” Boris Nemtsov told an independent Belarusian television channel two weeks ago. http://www.newsweek.com/report-boris-nemtsov-critic-russian-president-vladimir-putin-killed-moscow-310330


    • Colonial Rawshark 12.1

      I suppose your implication is that Putin had the former deputy Prime Minister Nemtsov killed. Shot multiple times while he was walking not far from the Kremlin.

      Seriously, even if Putin on 80% popularity ratings could be bothered to order such a thing, I think as an ex KGB Colonel he would have made it a tad more subtle and deniable.

      • joe90 12.1.1

        Coincidence is a wonderful word.

        Lorcan Roche Kelly ‏@LorcanRK

        Boris Nemtsov, shot in Moscow tonight, speaking about Putin in yesterday’s @FT http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4ecd1a04-bd1d-11e4-b523-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl#axzz3Symnp0l1


        • Colonial Rawshark

          No, I didn’t say that it was a coincidence.

          This is potentially part of a deliberate programme to increase political instability and discontent in Russia.

          Putin doesn’t gain a thing from that; other players do.

      • McFlock 12.1.2

        Tsars don’t need to make things particularly subtle or deniable.

        • nadis

          Obviously the CIA did it. Putin and his fellow group of thieves clearly have no form doing this sort of thing in the past.

          Apparently Nemtsov was going to release a dossier of info showing the extent to which the Russian army has been operating in Ukraine.

          Perhaps Putiin was doing hiis best Henry 2 impression?

          • McFlock

            You mean the CIA wants to make putin look bad by covering up his crimes for him via murder?
            Sounds legit 🙂

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              No, you’re both wrong. He was the final obstacle to a grand alliance between the HAARP Cabal and Buzz Aldrin.

              • nadis

                Say that to Buzz’s face. He’d smack you right on the kisser.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Not since people have started asking questions: it’s quite likely that right hook killed JFK. Those pesky Youtube kids, eh.

            • nadis

              Yep. The CIA is responsible for all of the problems in Russia. Without their meddling Russia would be a civilised, democratic paradise that didnt rank close to last in the world of unimportant things like freedom of the press, income inequality, harassment of dissidents, corruption, judicial corruption, murder of journalists etc. And their leadership would never have stolen several hundreds of billions of dollars without being forced to by the CIA.

              • greywarshark

                The Russians are bad, the Russians are bad, the Russians are bad. Heavy Metal band line from a USA group called From the Bottom of the USA.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  So criticism of John Key extends to all New Zealanders? This is exactly the sort of thing I’m talking about: Buzz’s mind control techniques are messing with your head.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                nadis – I’d simply note that Russia doesn’t destabilise nations and start wars in faraway lands killing hundreds of thousands. And then head in for seconds and thirds because it fucked up those places so badly to begin with.

                And yes, Russia has many of the hallmarks of a plutocracy, but so has the UK and USA.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Yeah, they don’t destabilise nations at all.

                  Just one question: how would you know, science denier?

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    Ahhhh the blinkered Scientism Acolyte calls me a heretic. How it hurts lol

                    • McFlock

                      Apparently if you rub a dead cat on your face it will heal the pain. According to an alternative healer (who carefully did not claim to bea medical practitioner, just a healer) on the interwebz

                    • greywarshark

                      Do you remember if he/she said that it also worked with toy cats (sort of dead)? Does it have to have real fur or not? If you can’t get a dead cat, or a toy cat in real fur, would a koala bear made out of kangaroo skin work?

                      Waiting in anticipation while my head and tooth aches. Please hurry and advise.

                    • McFlock

                      I think I saw a dead cat in the local reservoir, so rubbing the ultra-diluted tapwater on your head and rinsing your mouth with it should have the same healing properties as the cat itself.

                      Koalas are good for chlamydia, because most of ’em have it, the dirty buggers.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Tell us again about the effectiveness of homeopathy and how it is devastating modern science.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      the modern world is decimating modern science quite well enough, don’t you think.

                    • TheContrarian

                      What part of “the modern world” is decimating “modern science”?

                      You’ll actually have to define what you mean

                    • Incognito

                      It only works with a Schrödinger cat.

                • nadis

                  And yes, Russia has many of the hallmarks of a plutocracy

                  Let me fix that for you:

                  And yes, Russia has many of the hallmarks of a fascist mafia kleptcracy…

                  I’m sorry, unless you are deluded and have a complete blindspot/hard-on for Russia, the political systems of Russia versus the USA and UK arent even on the same planet.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    Oh I think they are moving closer together as we speak. The FVEY nations have learnt to bring all the techniques of the East German Stasi into the 21st century, for instance. US government torture programmes used techniques detailed in SS/Gestapo handbooks from WWII. And of course, it is natural to prefer the governmental systems of the USA – if you aren’t poor and black.

                    • greywarshark

                      There is a one man show on in Wellington written about Paul Robeson and how it was to be a black in free advanced USA. And how they in gummint felt free to oppress USA citizens. At one time he was forbidden to sing and his passport was withheld so he couldn’t leave the USA. He suffered a bit of depression around that time I think.
                      No joyride living there!
                      Playing Favourites with Tayo Aluko ( 53′ 35″ )
                      10:08 Nigerian-born, UK-based writer and performer of Call Mr Robeson: a Life with Songs, based on the musical career and political activism of the US singer Paul Robeson.

                    • nadis

                      You need a better example of US fascist tendencies than Paul Robeson. Maybe someone who was alive for at least part of the last 40 years.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Thanks fellas.

                      On another note, the US still has Black Panther political activists locked up from the 1970s, most likely on trumped up/falsified charges. Those men are American political prisoners and will never see a free day in their lives again.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      The noble western ideals of democracy, freedom, fraternity and equality have, in practical terms, been altered as freedom for the wealthy and the powerful minority to do as they wish in their own special interests, while the poor, the under privileged and the ordinary people get to enjoy neither equality nor fraternity nor true democracy in effect.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      I also can’t believe the number of Lefties who get sucked into the idea of waging war, droning ‘bad guys’, overthrowing governments and impoverishing nations all in the righteous name of freedom, democracy, equality and human rights.

                      It’s like a Kafka play in real life.

          • The Murphey

            Anything is possible we will never know

            Speculation is all we have and in the absense of knowing then one guess is as valid as another

            • McFlock

              In a complete absence of knowledge, one guess is as valid as another.

              As knowledge grows, some guesses are more valid than others.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Not to mention that they reveal something of the agenda behind the speculation.

              • The Murphey

                Unless you’re privy to higher levels of classified information all speculation remains equally valid

                • McFlock

                  I speculate that you did it, then, you jason bourne chappy…

                  • The Murphey

                    As valid as any other speculative response

                    Some of your best work McFlock

                    • McFlock

                      Apart from the fact that I have knowledge of your absurdist denial of all knowledge, so really there’s a 50/50 chance that you’d have looked down the long end of the gun before pulling the trigger, so you’re not competent enough to have done it, so the speculation of your guilt is not as valid as putin having ordered someone else to do it.

                      But then the weak anthropic principle comes in, that maybe you’re just one incredibly lucky imbecile…

                    • The Murphey

                      Ex-cep-tion-al : Being an exception

                      Your speculation does not counter my original statement

                    • McFlock

                      citation pls.

                    • McFlock

                      As in, for your rather naive and convenient definition.

                      My speculation points out that your original statement is farcical, because we do have some knowledge.

                    • The Murphey

                      Q. Why are you still stalking my comments ?

                      Without ‘truth’ of any given event all you are have is speculation hence all are valid

                      My use of the word equal was to emphasise that all speculation will be equal because they are not truth

                      There is only one truth but no human involved will have it or know it

                      Everything else is speculation everything else is wrong

                      Arguing degrees of wrong is foolish and indicates a limited ability to reason


                    • McFlock

                      So you replied to me with a passive-aggressive reference to a previous argument that you completely failed to understand, and any reply I make after that is stalking? Piss off.

                      As for the rest, your acataleptic doubt is amusing, but leaves you fucking useless.

                    • The Murphey

                      I thought I had replied to a comment from Nadis

                      If i had replied to your comment it was unintentional but would signal a retraction of that particular stalking enquiry is necessary in this instance

                      Q. Had i replied to your comment ?

                      Retraction or not the insults amplify your inability to counter my contention and the empty comments speak for you

                      Q. Is saturday night drinking night ?

                      Keep at it McFlock you might even manage to become an exception to your own rule of failing to counter one of my comments 😉

                    • McFlock

                      Your first comment replied to nadis. whats your excuse for the other four?

                      Indeed, that seems to be the “exception”, although unexceptional in itself.

                    • The Murphey

                      Your first comment replied to nadis. whats your excuse for the other four?

                      You admit to hijacking (stalking) yet another of my comments with the obligatory profanity based insults and then ask what my excuse is …

                      Q. Is there any possibility of picking your game up ?

                    • McFlock

                      0pen mike, doofus. FWIW, I ignore most of your idiocies unless you reply to me. But every so often one of your comments is so spectacularly pretentious and useless that I feel the need to point out the gaping hole to you.

                      And being told to pick up my game by someone who invents definitions to suit their delusional claims of victory is just funny.

                    • The Murphey

                      I feel the need to point out the gaping hole to you

                      Q. Are you going to provide examples the same way I continue to for your benefit ?

                      And being told to pick up my game by someone who invents definitions to suit their delusional claims of victory is just funny.

                      Being that you are fixated on providing a repetitive case study in irony and mentioning definitions

                      Q. You don’t know the definition of the word ‘question’ eh ?

                      question |ˈkwesCHən|
                      a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information

                      e.g ‘Is there any possibility of picking your game up’ ?

                      This one you know intimately

                      Ex-cep-tion-al: Being an exception

                • One Anonymous Bloke


                  That explains a lot.

        • Colonial Rawshark

          Tsars don’t need to make things particularly subtle or deniable.

          Putin gains zero from having an unelectable unpopular politician killed outside the Kremlin.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            Is it your position that he does sane, rational things on a regular basis?

            Citation needed.

            • Colonial Rawshark

              Oh yes the Putin is the crazy, irrational, blood thirsty one out of the the current set of world leaders meme.

              You scientism acolytes are surprisingly weak minded to fall for this kind of thing.

              Tell you what, take a look at the 3 hour plus no questions barred annual pressor he did last year and ask yourself why you’ll never see Obama, Cameron, Abbott or Key fielding unscripted questions from the global media like that.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Yeah nah: you’re the one asserting that he’s different, better, special, not me.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  I thought you were the one asserting Putin is very special, and hence deserving of special attention to be sorted out. Sorry I must have mistaken your intent.

                  Like many liberals, you’re a sponge for propaganda messaging from authority figures.

          • McFlock

            nothing to gain, except their silence.

            • Colonial Rawshark

              That’s not a gain, and further, it foments political dissatisfaction with the Kremlin. As I said earlier, it’s other players who would benefit from that but it seems that you’re not listening.

              • McFlock

                It depends entirely on what the guy was about to say. Putin might well be much better off with enemies in fear and no disturbing revelations than he would be if the guy were left alive.

                Your suggestion that “other players” would manage an elaborate plan to increase Russian instability by eliminating putin’s opponents, in secret, with massive geopolitical blowback if the slightest legitimate suspicion were raised, is incredibly unlikely for the simple reason that anyone dumb enough to try it would not be competent enough to achieve it.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              … so, apart from silence, and the intimidation of other opponents, and an increased reputation as a ‘strong man’*, what has Putin ever gained from this?

              *terms and conditions apply.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                Citation please.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Again: you are the one making the assertion: that Putin has gained nothing. I’m just your friendly peer-reviewer.

                  • Colonial Rawshark

                    OK well he gained more airtime in the western media. And I bet he loves that, being a sociopathic narcissist etc etc.

              • greywarshark

                What has Putin gained from OAB’s comment? Or another this? If so what this is that?

              • nadis

                Putin will blame “Dark western forces” or “chechen gangsters” or “Ukrainian fascists”. The majority of Russians will lap it up becasue that is the only narrative they will get (complete state control of TV, complete state censorship of the internet)

                The small opposition that the message is directed at will understand completely. Criticising Putin in Russia as a journalist or politician is generally a death sentence, or prison at best.

                • The Murphey

                  Q. Are you sure that is what will happen or is that your guess?

                  Q. Have you been to Russia ?

                  Q. How many Russians do you know well ?

                  • nadis

                    I have been to Russia though that was some time ago – 1997-2003 – on multiple visits for business, though they didnt give me a huge lot of insight into how average russians lived or thought. Though I do have some great anecdotes about how business was done and who was doing it.

                    Subsequently I have read a lot of books both by Russians and outsiders. You want a reading list? Defending Russia without having read at least some of the books I could recommend makes you look a bit stupid.

                    • The Murphey

                      Q. How was I defending Russia ?

                      Q. Why did you not answer the first question ?

                      Q. Why are you making assumptions ?

                      Again you have got ahead yourself similar to the way you did the last time we engaged

                      Q. Are you a slow learner ?

                    • nadis

                      A. Don’t care specifically. My you was plural not singular. If you are offended by my presumed assumption I apologise.

                      A. Don’t know what your question referred to. Of course I don’t know what the Russian govt will do, but I do know many of the thing they have done.

                      A. I’m not making assumptions without making it obvious they are assumptions.

                      A. Not usually unless it is dancing, or listening to my wife.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Yes I agree that’s worse than the US, where they generally only fire journalists for printing unpalatable stories about US government or Israeli government activities.

                  Mind you, the US does tend to spy on, intimidate, prosecute and imprison journalists sources and whistleblowers of conscience, sometimes for decades at a time.

                  Then there’s things like the extra-judicial exiling of people like Edward Snowden.

                  Ahhh well, that’s Empire for you.

                  • “Then there’s things like the extra-judicial exiling of people like Edward Snowden.”

                    Funny way to describe being on the run. Snowden can go home any time he wants so he’s not actually exiled extra-judicially. Or judicially, for that matter. It’s entirely a self-exile.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      The US government cancelled his passport when he arrived in Moscow to prevent him from fleeing to Ecuador (or anywhere else). That was effectively exiling (stranding) Snowden in Russia.

                      Snowden can go home any time he wants

                      How? And regardless, he’d never get a fair trial if the secret grand jury has charged him with crimes under the Espionage Act.

                    • Revoking his passport doesn’t stop him going home. He can return any time he wants so he’s not exiled.

                      As for his trial, he knowingly broke the laws of his country. I think he did it for the greater good, but he still chose to do so. On the up side, he doesn’t appear to have raped anyone, so good on him for showing some restraint 😉

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Who is going to issue him a passport?

                      As for his trial, he knowingly broke the laws of his country.

                      Yep. Just like freeing slaves or helping Jews escape across the border broke the laws of those lands. Or sitting in White only sections of the bus, restaurant or movie theatre.

                      On the up side, he doesn’t appear to have raped anyone, so good on him for showing some restraint 😉

                      Yeah, you’re a prick. And again, a prime sponge for smearing propaganda.

                    • He doesn’t need one to go home. Neither do you, actually.

                      Re: breaking the law, he actually can mount a defence that the lawbreaking was for the greater good. Just not from Moscow.

                    • Bill

                      he actually can mount a defence that the lawbreaking was for the greater good.

                      Not a permissible defense for charges brought under the Espionage Act.

                      But hey, don’t let that get in the way of endlessly excusing and apologising for authority, while slamming any ingrate who dares question, undermine or challenge it. I mean, we all know authority is to be revered at all times and in all circumstances.

                    • Bill, you might be well be a suck up to authority, but I really don’t revere it the way you claim to. So let’s focus on the facts, eh?

                      Snowden knew what he was doing was illegal and while it’s an uphill struggle to get a not guilty verdict (what with him being guilty an’ all) he is entitled to use the public good defence in both the case itself and the sentencing aspect, if convicted.

                      Whether it works for him is entirely another matter.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Bill is right of course, and TRP you are wrong. The problem TRP is that you have assumed that Snowden would have natural justice on return to the USA. That is not the case. Even Daniel Ellsberg has said that Snowden is right to not return to the USA, given how much conditions have deteriorated since he leaked the Pentagon Papers.

                      Snowden would not be permitted to use a public good defence, he also would not be able to use a defence that no material harm was done to the interests of the United States.

                    • Nope, he can mount any defence he wants. Whether it succeeds is another matter.

                      PS, not knowing what natural justice is doesn’t help your argument.

                    • Bill

                      he is entitled to use the public good defence in both the case itself…

                      What is it that you’re not getting about ‘the public good’ (or whatever) not being permissible grounds of defense for charges brought under the Espionage Act!?

                      The Espionage Act is kinda somewhat like trespass is in this country. There is, to all practical purposes, no fcking possible defense if the Act is used against you.

                    • Well, you’re almost there, Bill. It is permissible as a defence, but whether it works is another matter. Kinda like you think the trespass Act that you mentioned works.

                      The best defence is a) don’t break the law, b) don’t broadcast what you’ve done if you do. Snowden’s defence is weak not because the public good defence isn’t available to him (it is), it’s just that he has already admitted knowingly breaking the law. If he’d been more selective in what he released, he would have more of a chance of using that defence. ie he could say “I only released specific things such as incidents of lawbreaking that the public had a right to know about”. But a general dumping of the info he took substantially weakens any defence he might have had.

                      If he’s found guilty, he can still plead the public good in mitigation during the sentencing phase. But again, non specific dumps don’t support that either.

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      CR is right. A public interest defence is prohibited for charges brought under the Espionage Act. However, Hilary Clinton agrees with you. She doesn’t seem to know US law either.


                      As for the best defence being to not break the law, wow. You really are authoritarian. This is one of the reasons the Labour Party is becoming increasingly irrelevant in making the needed changes in the way things are run.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      trp has now transitioned from being ignorant of the facts to being deliberately obtuse. He has no idea how US “justice” has been compromised.

                      As for the best defence being to not break the law, wow. You really are authoritarian.

                      This. No wonder he wants to send Kiwi troops over to Iraq with no plan for victory, nor any chance for victory, simply on Obama and Key’s say so.

          • nadis

            A killing like this of a high profile opponent sneds a pretty clear message to other opponents.

            Lets be honest. Putin doesnt and never has given a shit about appearances, except those ones that make him look like a Stalin-esque leader.

            He’s never cared in the past when as mayor of St Petersburg he personally signed thousands of import export licenses in return for 30% kickbacks, didnt care when killing journalists in moscow, didnt care when dosing tea with polonium, doesn’t care when arbitrarily stripping assets from opponents.

            He may not have anything to do with it, but I think it is unlikely the hand of the Russian state is either directly or indirectly involved. Russian organised crime doesnt do anything in Russia without a nod from the FSB, so the chances of an organised hit within Russia happening without state input is low. I guess we’ll see on the aftermath. If no-one or only a patsy is captured then you know it was a state hit.

            • Colonial Rawshark

              OK let’s say it was a state sanctioned hit. Let’s even say that Putin personally signed off on the assassination to make a public point ahead of the upcoming opposition protest march. Let’s even say that the power of being perpetual president has gone to his head and he’s decided he might be the New Stalin of the 21st century.

              Now what. Shall we go to war with Russia?

              Or shall we just settle for organising a “colour revolution” in Moscow and settle for regime change?

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Are you saying there are no Russians who want a progressive democracy?

                Or that we should do nothing to help them?

                Or is your whole position twisted by personal bias much?

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Go on then, support a colour revolution, maybe a Moscow Spring. The IMF, World Bank and Goldman Sachs are usually close behind helping wave the flags for “freedom”.

                  • Russia has already had their neoliberal “spring” (aided by their own version of Rogernomics) and now the oligarchs are in control. Goldman Sachs would have trouble against the Russian gangster capitalists.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Indeed. It’s why I wonder about the complaints that Russia is a mafia plutocracy. After all, it’s exactly the way that the IMF, GS, JPM etc set it up in the 90’s. Their problem with it I believe is that they expected it to be THEIR mafia to be in charge, not Putin’s.

                    • Bill

                      And just like those (allegedly) crazy, conspiratorial and seemingly aimless cabbage whites, CV lands bang on target in the end. 🙂

  12. swordfish 13

    I had to laugh.

    The newly-selected Labour candidate to stand against George Galloway in Bradford West, London-based Amina Ali, has suddenly pulled out citing the disruption it would cause to her family life if she moved north to Bradford. The councillor in London’s Tower Hamlets said that fighting for a seat 200 miles away in Yorkshire would have too great an impact on her children’s schoolwork.

    She was only selected 4 days ago and, according to reports, said it was “a dream come true” to be picked. But according to The Times, Ms Ali had “a look of shock and horror on her face” immediately after learning she’d won the selection contest.

    Bradford West had been comfortably held by Labour since boundary changes in 1974 (Labour held the seat with a 6000-vote majority in 2010). But at the 2012 By-Election, George Galloway won the seat in spectacular style, achieving a majority of more than 10,000 with the largest UK By-Election swing in 30 years (he has since referred to the win as the Bradford Spring).

    Long may he continue to shame both the Tories/Coalition and UK Labour’s venal, Neo-liberal elite.


  13. joe90 14

    See, workers are basically terrorists who need to be broken to make the world safe for corporations.

    Walker sought to address this gap Thursday evening at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference when he was asked a question on stage about how he would take on the threat of Islamic State jihadists. Walker claimed he was prepared to confront this threat because of his experience confronting thousands of protesters who gathered in Madison in 2011 to decry his push to undo collective bargaining for public employees in the state. “We need a leader with that kind of confidence. If I can take on 100,000 protesters, I can do the same across the world,” he declared.


  14. Colonial Rawshark 15

    Howard Zinn: a just cause doesn’t mean it will be a just war

    • `
      Linked: Matt Damon on civil disobedience.
      The political elites of USA and Russia have more in common with one another than with their own people. Civil _obedience_ is in their best interests. Meanwhile poor people are jailed for petty infractions and wall street bankers remain at large.

      • greywarshark 15.1.1

        USA and other financiers who play risk games and lose get bailed out but Kim Dotcom is to be roasted and stripped of money for his defence. I wonder whether Courts down here withh carry forward the alleged harsh controls on his reimbursement.

  15. Shane Le Brun 16

    My latest Blog post on MMJ, the science of Pot VS Pain Part 2…


    Alternate address.

  16. swordfish 17

    Reading the Greek Deal Correctly

    Was the Brussels Deal really “a humiliating defeat for Greece” ?


    • Colonial Rawshark 17.1

      Thanks for that. Galbraith is one of a limited number of economists worth listening to, and I am glad he has been helping the Syriza government.

      • Great article and interesting comment below it
        Lies are to mass communication what bio-tech fraudulent substances are to agriculture. Both are being disseminated in such mad rushes as to taint the currencies of nutrition along with “food for thought.”

        Exactly how dirty politics has polluted public discourse in NZ

  17. Tautoko Mangō Mata 18

    There is an interesting article in the New York Times dealing with the fact that conservatives on the whole do not regard environmental issues as moral ones and therefore are less likely to support governments to make changes that are beneficial although possibly involving some cost.

    “While the number of Republicans who say global warming is a serious problem has reached high levels, there remains a very large gap in moral engagement with the issue. We found that conservatives were less likely than liberals to describe pro-environmental efforts in moral terms, or to pass moral judgment on someone who behaved in an environmentally unfriendly way, for example by not recycling. Where liberals view environmental issues as matters of right and wrong, conservatives generally do not.”

    “Our research points to a different factor in the moralization gap: the terms in which these issues are commonly discussed in the media. We enlisted a team of research assistants to code the moral content of 51 environmental public service announcements and 402 opinion articles appearing in major American newspapers. The arguments found in these messages most often discussed environmental issues like climate change in terms of the need to protect people and ecosystems from harm and destruction. Protection from harm is a moral concern that, past research finds, resonates significantly more with American liberals than conservatives. By contrast, moral concerns more unique to conservatives like patriotism, respect for authority, sanctity or purity rarely appeared in the environmental appeals we studied.”

    “To assess this, we conducted a final study in which we constructed a pro-environmental message based in moral purity. This message emphasized the need to protect natural habitats from “desecration” so that our children can experience the “uncontaminated purity and value of nature.” We presented one group of self-identified conservatives with this message, another group with a more conventional message emphasizing the need to protect ecosystems from harm, and a third group with a neutral essay that didn’t mention the environment. The conservatives presented with the purity message reported significantly greater support for pro-environmental legislation than the other two groups — indeed, they were as supportive as a group of liberals we also surveyed. Conservatives who read the moral purity message even reported greater belief in global warming, though the message itself didn’t mention global warming, only environmental issues in general.”

    I found this article very thought-provoking. It seems that the moral issues have to be spelt out if Conservative commitment to positive action is the goal. (Mind you, when I look at the way that National has abused the political donation system, why am I surprised? There seems to be a disengagement of the ethical /moral viewpoint on the justification that if it’s legal, then it is right.) Conservative support for the short term planning by this government, whereby resources are squandered and problems are foisted onto future generations, may need to be countered differently by highlighting the moral deficiencies of plundering on the future generations.

    • saveNZ 18.1

      The way to forge back from the neoliberal NACT policy stronghold in NZ is to counter with ‘moral’ and ‘ethical’ messages from the left but in an emotional way. The emotion is missing often from the left. You do not change hearts and minds with ‘logic’ – you do it with passion. Russell Norman has passion such as his fantastic speech on sending troops to Iraq recently. In the previous election 2011? Greens had billboards with children on it. That was much more successful than the current ones from the Greens, which I actually don’t even remember.

      The Labour MP’s need to be more visionary but not in a contrived way but from the heart. To my mind it feels like Labour are too scared to really speak out on real issues. This presents an unauthentic muddle like the 24 hr surveillance bill. You are either into surveillance or out on surveillance. It is not a time frame issue it is a human right moral issue. You believe it is ok for the CIA to torture or it is not ok for the CIA to torture. For an MP not being able to answer a moral question clearly or evading it just makes anyone look untrustworthy. Likewise with policy – what do you stand for?

      • saveNZ,
        The missing million do not see it that way. They are important issues and starkly illustrate the moral lobotomization of our society. Dirty politics has polluted all parties, and corporate lies have corrupted the MSM. No wonder so many people have decided to ignore the whole farce.

        US Conservatives are a weird bunch, tied up in religious myths and apocalyptic fantasies, their moral compasses confused by terrible perversions from the pulpit. Most conservatives are lovely hospitable and kind people but they feel it’s their moral duty to feed their sons and daughters into the bloodthirsty military industrial machine. Jesus wept. Fred Clark of the “Slacktivist” blog dissects the religious mindset, it’s awful but fascinating reading.

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 18.1.2

        I agree with you, Save NZ. Labour cannot simply copy Key’s technique of changing his tack every five minutes depending on the feedback from the focus group because progressives would be able to spot the lack of authenticity straight away. It seems that the moral importance of proposed policy has to be really spelt out in a way that gets through to the Conservative mind that seems to be able to accept anything that comes out of John Key’s mouth without subjecting it to any critical analysis for BS or comparison with previous utterings. There seems to be a faith-based belief in Key that bypasses the critical thinking parts of the brain for many people .

  18. Ergo Robertina 19


    For those in Dunedin, Prof Jane Kelsey is giving a public talk at Dunedin Hospital, lunchtime Monday, on the TPP and its profound implications for public health.

  19. saveNZ 20

    Interesting article about how donations and voting in the internet age mean
    Internet-era politics means safe seats are a thing of the past

    In 2004, the Howard Dean campaign made electoral history by harnessing the power of the internet to raise more than any other Democratic contender: more than $25m raised, largely in small-money donations averaging $80 – a marked contrast to the usual way of doing things, which involves raising titanic sums from rich people whom you then owe a lot of favours to, whether or not you take office.

    Tools such as I’ll Vote Green If You Do mean isolated pockets of resistance can unite to become effective agents of political change


  20. greywarshark 21

    In case you haven’t caught up with John Oliver do his bit about Tobacco and PM cigarettes.
    He gives it good coverage and lively as well.

  21. McGrath 22

    Go the Black Caps!

  22. HumPrac 23

    I would just like to point out that the red climate change advertisement that is always on the right of the page, is not showing the full story.
    It is missing context.
    In order for it to be relevant, it must include the ACTUAL temperature readings of the earth as far back as we have been able to measure it, then also include the CURRENT temperature of the earth.
    The only acceptable method of measurement is the ‘actual temperature percentage difference over time’. It’s the only figure which displays the actual story.
    The method used on the advertisement is childish AND extremely misleading. On top of that it uses a negative connotation to express its point (Hiroshima). It seems like a fear inducing advertisement.

    Am I the only technical savvy person who writes on The Standard? Because ALL technical minded people should be able to pick up on it.

    • There’s a difference between heat and temperature mate.

    • Macro 23.2

      If your not afraid of heating the Earth at the rate of 4 Hiroshima’s per second, then you should be. Remember – over 90% of that heat ends up in the oceans.
      You might think your a technically savvy person, but you naivety suggests otherwise.
      Imagine (as a technically savvy person) the effect on a pot of water sitting on a stove top that is on. What are the things that happen? That is just what we are doing to the Earth as we pour more and more GHG’s into the atmosphere.
      Last year was the warmest on record (world wide). The past decade has been the warmest on record (world wide). This past month in Perth (where I am currently staying) has been (on average) 1 degree above the average for the past 30 years, and even warmer than that on the long term average. There are bush fires here on a daily basis. More importantly the minimum temperatures are on average at least 1 degree above average. That is one of the main signatures for an increasing Green House Effect (with no GHG the Earth would cool to – 18 degrees every night and become a snowball).
      You might have noticed increasing winds around NZ over recent times. Have you observed that heating pot yet? Notice how the convection currents build up speed as more and more energy is transferred into the system. Wind speeds world wide have increased on average http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080903/full/news.2008.1079.html
      and they will continue to increase as we continue to heat the Earth.
      So the short answer is – this is a graphic way to continually bring to peoples attention the sad fact that the Western World is carrying out a very dangerous experiment which will affect all of humankind.

      • Clemgeopin 23.2.1

        “So the short answer is – this is a graphic way to continually bring to peoples attention the sad fact that the Western World is carrying out a very dangerous experiment which will affect all of humankind.”

        What about the eastern countries, China and India?
        Do they see the problem?

        • marty mars

          As Macro pointed out – “Last year was the warmest on record (world wide). The past decade has been the warmest on record (world wide)”… and “More importantly the minimum temperatures are on average at least 1 degree above average. That is one of the main signatures for an increasing Green House Effect”

        • Macro

          Yes the developing countries add to the total GHG
          But ask yourself this question
          who consumes the majority of India and China’s production?
          Where is your wardrobe made? Where were the brake pads for your car produced? Where were the tyres manufactured? etc etc…
          You know and I know that the Western World are the major consumers of the developing nations production. In other words we have EXPORTED our GHG production to these countries and now you are castigating them for it!
          They would not have such escalating GHG totals if we didn’t buy so much stuff!
          On the other hand China in particular is doing something about it! It’s GHG is actually declining in comparison to it’s GDP growth. Not substantially, but it is heading in the right direction – unlike NZ!

          • Clemgeopin

            ” now you are castigating them for it!”

            No, I wasn’t! How and why did you presume such a thing?

            I was asking a simple honest question for your statement, “sad fact that the Western World is carrying out a very dangerous experiment which will affect all of humankind”, without substantiating what that dangerous experiment was!


            Now that you have clarified what you meant, tell me clearly how do we stop people buying the cheap and essential stuff from China and other countries? What is your sensible, doable, practical, workable solution, and in what time, not just for the tiny New Zealand but for all the world? These are legitimate questions. Do not presume something else.

            • Macro

              The dangerous experiment is the continuing unmitigated emissions of GHG by the continual burning of fossil fuels so that we can have cheap stuff. By continually raising the concentration of GHG in the atmosphere Humans are trapping more and more energy that would have been radiated back into space. That extra energy is being recorded at the rate of around 4 Hiroshima bombs every second. That is the numbers being shown on the widget at the top right of the page, and is an approximate record of the total additional energy that has been added to the Earth since 1979. The experiment is to find out what happens! Well we have a damn good idea of what will happen, and frankly its not very pretty.
              We can go on demanding cheap stuff – and for a few more years we can carry on – but the longer we keep on demanding cheap stuff the worse it will get. The consequences of our demands will make life for our descendants very miserable indeed. My grandchildren will certainly live in a far poorer and depleted world than I have had the fortune to experience. I don’t think they will thank me for it.
              Storms will be more severe. Drought will be more severe, as will rainfall. Seems contradictory doesn’t it. But every 1 degree increase in atmospheric temperature increases the capacity of air to hold water vapour by 4%. Water is an even more potent GHG than CO2 – so that feeds back into increasing the solar energy trapped by the Green house effect. Winds are increasing and damage caused by extreme weather events will escalate. Many economists (Including Lord Stern) have considered this problem and concluded that the cheapest solution is to stop emitting GHG’s – not wait until we are forced to do something.
              The first solution should be a direct tax on Carbon. British Columbia introduced such a tax some years back. It is the only Province in Canada to record a reduction in GHG emissions. Not only that, BC is still growing its Wealth. Regretfully this is through mining and exploitative industries such as exporting unsawn logs to China, but the fact is that by reinvesting that tax in improving Public transport (The Vancouver sky train from the airport to the city is amazing) and promoting electric cars etc (I travelled with a venture capitalist who was working with Tesla on one occasion – very informative). The carbon tax gives the province the wherewithal to invest in an alternative and more sustainable future.
              Because the Western World has predominantly caused this sad state of affairs, and has had the lions share of the benefits, it has the moral responsibility to do more than others to deal with the outcomes. This is not something that NZ Australia and USA etc want to face up to. And NZ to our shame has been one of the worst players (along with Australia) in the recent past in owning up to this – indeed our “contribution” at the recent Lima COP talks were downright appalling. But that is another issue in this sorry affair.

              • Clemgeopin

                Thanks Macro for your nice detailed reply.

                You did not really respond to my last part of the comment, “Now that you have clarified what you meant, tell me clearly how do we stop people buying the cheap and essential stuff from China and other countries? What is your sensible, doable, practical, workable solution, and in what time, not just for the tiny New Zealand but for all the world? These are legitimate questions. Do not presume something else”

                Your solution was carbon tax, electric cars and may be rails. I agree with those.

                But is that it in reply to my query about cheap stuff from China etc and sensible, doable, practical, workable solution immediately now around the world?

                But no worries if you can’t or don’t wish to answer that very difficult issue.

                • Macro

                  Sorry I have just been rewatching the cricket 🙂
                  Very enjoyable watching over here you understand. and got carried away.
                  As for the cheap stuff from China etc. I believe we have to rethink the free trade deals and globalisation. I’m not opposed to trade as such, I just believe trade should be fair trade.
                  Take for instance the export of logs to China. I see logging trucks day after day carrying thousands of logs to Tauranga for shipping to China. In Vancouver I saw the same thing – vast numbers being towed by tugs to the ships for loading – acres of them. But China only wants logs and refuses sawn timber. I say if they want the wood – then we saw it too! If you don’t take that – you don’t get.
                  NZ used to be the world leader in forestry and timber production. In WW2 the Mosquito (a wooden aircraft) was made possible to be produced by a battalion of the NZ Army – Foresters. The Brits didn’t know how to cut down and mill the timber fast enough! The NZers reduced the spruce forests of Cirencester in short order…
                  Until recently wine was not only produced in NZ but also the bottles were manufactured here. We now import our wine bottles from China!
                  How do we change this? Its reactionary I know – but we have to – as the First Labour Govt did place import quotas on goods. NZ is foolish to think that it can be so pure in this when elsewhere other nations place restrictions on their boarders.
                  Not only do we restrict the importation of cheap and often unreliable goods but we improve the employment prospects for many. WE used to clothe ourselves until we started to import cheap clothing from offshore. Thousands lost their work as factories closed. Hoping that people will buy locally produced doesn’t work. Cheap always wins out over quality.
                  But with more people in employment there is more buying power as there is more money to go around. Local products, though more expensive at first, become more affordable because people have more money and maybe are not having to buy so frequently.
                  That is only one suggestion – there are many others but I have a g’son to put to bed. So I’ll leave my suggestions there. I’m sure others can offer even better ideas.

                  • Chooky

                    +100 Macro…and now we are allowing the Chinese to cut us out of our own milk baby food production

              • Macro

                An interesting article outlining the science with regards a warming world and increasing extreme weather events.

    • Murray Rawshark 23.3

      I’d say I’m reasonably technically savvy and I see nothing wrong with it. You don’t seem as knowledgeable as you think, though. As an example, what is the temperature of the Earth, and why is it relevant to climate change? Let’s see if you know what you’re talking about.

      As for not showing the full story – it shows one measure among many that are possible. Personally, I think the amount of heat being added to the climate is a very apt measure, although what exactly this means is left unclear. It shows that we are adding a lot of heat, and that is scary.

  23. I can’t jump in on the discussion above with regards to the murder of Nemtsov in Russia. The reply buttons were missing!

    What gets me is that for some reason people are more than willing to contemplate murderous conspiracies when it concerns Putin but stay in total denial of the real and proven manipulation of Russian politics by the NATO/UN.

    Here is a telephone conversation from Victoria Nullen (The United States’ top diplomat for European affairs) with the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine stating that, as the US had spend $ 5 billion on destabilizing Ukraine to get their puppet in place (she names the one she wants) the EU could go fuck themselves because the US wanted their man in power.

    As I write this every country around Russia is being armed to the teeth and we are being primed with all kinds of Propaganda to hate Russia once again and the idea that we have to go to war with them. When will people beging to see that we are on the side of the bastards not the good guys.

    Oh, and by the way Putin yesterday announced that his administration would get a 10% cut in their salary. I call that leadership by example!

    • Molly 24.1

      Appears the actual telephone conversation is here.

      The banality of tone of both Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt, and the final “If God is willing” signoff from Nuland, is quite revealing.

      Ethical voids.

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