Open mike 29/08/2019

133 comments on “Open mike 29/08/2019 ”

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1. Robert Guyton 1

   29 August 2019 at 7:26 am

   Clownish National MPs are letting the Opposition down

   "King is the worst of a number of MPs who have shown a flippancy with facts. Spin is fine in politics, but facts are facts. Facts are important. You can't campaign in a different reality.

   We trust our politicians to make big decisions. Most of the decisions they make will not be campaigned on, will arise through their terms in power, or will go unreported.

   As a farmer, King should know climate change is the biggest issue facing New Zealand agriculture, says Glenn McConnell.

   The ability, then, to know fact from fiction and to be able to understand science and reasoning is the most basic skill a politician must have. By sharing disinformation, King has exposed that he lacks this basic requirement. He must go.

   He must go, also, because his stance shows an absolute disregard for New Zealand's future. Climate change is the biggest issue facing agriculture, and the biggest challenge facing the world. He does not understand the issue.

   This blasé approach to what most people are calling a crisis is irresponsible. He, and the other politicians who are ignoring the climate crisis, are condemning future generations to food insecurity, environmental catastrophe and global economic instability. If you're an MP who hasn't caught up with this, then you are out of touch and must go."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/115330531/loony-national-mps-are-letting-the-opposition-down
   • OnceWasTim 1.1

     29 August 2019 at 8:26 am

     I'm not even sure "spin is OK". Framing – sure. Spin is designed to prevent basic honesty and openness, to obfuscate and be frugal with the truth. It's one reason people lose faith in their representatives.

     I think we can agree though that King is a complete muppet
     • ianmac 1.1.1

       29 August 2019 at 8:58 am

       Spin is too kind a word. The Opposition will be infamous for repeatedly straight out lying and by the time the truth is out there the damage has been done. Remember the $100,000 bottle of wine that wasn't?
       • Sacha 1.1.1.1

         29 August 2019 at 9:57 am

         Not the slightest apology from hack John Armstrong over that fiasco either.
   • Ed1 1.2

     29 August 2019 at 1:36 pm

     Matt King only got elected because Peters and Prime split their vote – National had been declining in previous elections in Northland. We shouldn't need 'deals' like Epsom to get rid of King at the next election, but it would help if we moved to STV. . .
2. Chris T 2

   29 August 2019 at 9:18 am

   Labour dumps renewable hydro energy plan while spouting wanting energy to be more renewable.

   Why does this not surprise me?

   Ardern's "nuclear issue" and the Greens "WW2" seems to bit more sales pitch than substance

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115349596/mt-cook-of-rivers-will-not-be-tamed-as-govt-rejects-waitaha-hydropower-scheme
   • Andre 2.1

     29 August 2019 at 9:30 am

     That scheme was going to add a paltry 20MW of capacity, and trash a pretty special bit of river in the conservation estate.

     Meanwhile, there's 2500MW of windfarms consented, but not yet being built due to lack of demand. At first glance, I don't see any of those requiring the trashing of part of our conservation estate.

     There's also 285MW of geothermal consented, but not yet being built due to lack of demand.

     The obstacle to turning our electricity generation 100% renewable has more to do with the way fossil generators get to dump their hazardous waste on the rest of us for free. Not going ahead with trivially small hydro schemes that carry significant environmental costs has bugger-all to do with it.
   • Robert Guyton 2.2

     29 August 2019 at 9:35 am

     "Why does this not surprise me?"

     Because, ChrisT, your views are predetermined and on top of that, you don't read for meaning or integrate new ideas into your prejudice.

     Does that help answer your question?
   • AB 2.3

     29 August 2019 at 9:40 am

     It's a bad-faith, rhetorical trick to equate 'renewable' with 'green'. Hydro is one of the least desirable renewables because it trashes natural ecosystems. A very useful technology historically, but not the future.
     • greywarshark 2.3.1

       29 August 2019 at 10:39 am

       Damn!
     • weka 2.3.2

       29 August 2019 at 10:58 am

       yep.
     • Poission 2.3.3

       29 August 2019 at 11:02 am

       Historical technology was (and is) often very clever and simple.Solutions were often very cheap.

       https://twitter.com/wrathofgnon/status/1166152778818785280
       • Dukeofurl 2.3.3.1

         29 August 2019 at 11:33 am

         Unfortunately the examples you give were from an era ( 1910 ?)where public buildings were barely heated and certainly not air conditioning.
         [All though this was a special case
         https://www.rehva.eu/rehva-journal/chapter/reintroduction-of-natural-ventilation-to-a-historic-opera-house%5D but more was done other than ‘just’ restore the old methods and the complaints were because the ‘old vents and windows were blocked off’

         Its now a given , as the heating and cooling with fresh air are a single 'system'. Its like using microphones and speakers, you really cant do without them
         • McFlock 2.3.3.1.1

           29 August 2019 at 2:57 pm

           Don't say that thing about mics at the opera 🙂
     • New view 2.3.4

       29 August 2019 at 2:56 pm

       There’s no middle ground or compromise with people with your thought process. If you look hard enough the pursuit of energy will trash something. Whether it’s the sea the wind farm, the river, the nuclear waste. There has to be middle here. The massive impact that the Manapouri Dam had on the landscape has recovered over time. The difference these days is our ability to be a lot thoughtful with the way these projects are instigated.
       • weka 2.3.4.1

         29 August 2019 at 3:08 pm

         None of the South Island rivers that I'm aware of that have been dammed have recovered, and certainly not the Waiau.

         The whole point of dams is that they give control of water flows to humans, who then manage then in highly destructive ways without much regard for the ecology of the river. Hydro dams being opened for lots of power generation produce tornado like effects in the river itself for the things that live in the river. I think the issues with the Waiau are related to low flow and the river having lost its 20,000 year old capacity to respond to changes in water coming out of two lakes. The Manapouri scheme would never be allowed today and let's not forget that the huge damage that would have come from raising the lake was prevented by environmentalists.
         • New view 2.3.4.1.1

           29 August 2019 at 4:13 pm

           The river flows can be controlled. Any new Dam would would have strict controls. The Manapouri Dam wouldn’t have been built now as you say. But I can’t see why not. No body travelling around that area complains what a tragedy it is. When travellers drive past these lakes they don’t comment how ugly they are. They are part of a new beautiful landscape. The areas were wonderful landscapes before and are now. Just different. The North Island would be an underdeveloped wilderness without SI power. Unless you burn coal that is. Put up enough wind turbines and all the visual pollution people will come out of the woodwork. There must be compromise.
           • Dukeofurl 2.3.4.1.1.1

             29 August 2019 at 4:27 pm

             Thats rewriting history. Manapouri was an existing lake it wasnt created by people. The lake level is only controlled. Thats way it 'looks good' , but hey its not just about views for people who drive past

             For the original project they did propose to RAISE the lake level, and rightly that created an almighty storm.
           • weka 2.3.4.1.1.2

             29 August 2019 at 4:32 pm

             I lament the Waiau every time I see it.

             Very picturesque https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/i/j/x/d/9/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.710×400.1ijx2e.png/1492472129311.jpg

             Compromise involves understanding where the limits are. I just wrote a whole post about this, you can read it if you like. There are no good reasons to keep damming rivers in NZ. We don't have to keep growing exponentially, and we will be forced to stop soon anyway because of climate change.

             What we are talking about here is NZ's excessive usage of power. We could be conserving power and working within our limits. There's still compromise there, but small scale wind has a distinctly different impact than what happens to rivers when we dam them. It's not so much about visual pleasure, although that's an issue in some ways, it's about the impact on the river itself. Meaning the entity, perhaps what you think of as the beauty, as well as all the life that exists because of the river.
           • weka 2.3.4.1.1.3

             29 August 2019 at 4:39 pm

             I'm guessing you're not familiar with Manapouri and the Waiau. It's not a Manapouri dam, it's a system across two lakes, a river, a mountain and a fiord. The mountain has two tailraces built under it to drop water from Manapouri to the sea. To control that they built two control dams at the outlets of Lakes Manapouri and Te Anau. The Waiau drains out of Manapouri, and because they want Manapouri to flow under the mountain instead, the Waiau river is kept abnormally low. This affects the whole river right to the sea.

             Algae build up is an issue, and this will become more so as water temperatures increase with climate change.

             https://www.niwa.co.nz/sites/niwa.co.nz/files/styles/large/public/Kilroy%2C%20Lower%20Waiau%20River_with%20didymo.JPG?itok=uqd0LsJO
             • New view …

               29 August 2019 at 5:43 pm

               Nice description of the project Weka, but don’t assume too much. I traveled up the river from TeAnau to Manapouri before the project was started around 1964.
               • weka …

                 29 August 2019 at 6:47 pm

                 Down river 😉 I'd love to have seen these lakes and rivers before they were dammed.

                 I remember the Clutha before the Clyde Dam went in especially the Cromwell Gorge.
                 • weston …

                   29 August 2019 at 9:25 pm

                   All those apricots were lost too maybe the best in the country
                   • weka …

                     29 August 2019 at 9:29 pm

                     I know! I remember those.
   • weka 2.4

     29 August 2019 at 10:57 am

     There's a post up about this https://thestandard.org.nz/why-we-save-rivers
   • Bearded Git 2.5

     29 August 2019 at 11:44 am

     Too simplistic by far Chris T.

     See the comments, including mine, on the dedicated post for this issue.
3. dv 3

   29 August 2019 at 10:00 am

   Solar, wind, tidal and wave motion as energy sources.
4. Yorick 4

   29 August 2019 at 10:32 am

   Alas, poor England .. burdened by imperial fantasies after the fall of Singapore .. or should that be Hong Kong ?
   • Peter Christchurch NZ 4.1

     29 August 2019 at 10:49 am

     Or Alas, poor China, burdened by imperial fantasies in Taiwan, Xinjiang, Xiazang (Tibet), Nei Mongolia (Inner Mongolia). The largest empire on earth today is the Chinese empire.

     Sorry, I forgot. Only white people are racists, colonialists and imperialists.
     • greywarshark 4.1.1

       29 August 2019 at 11:06 am

       Oh FGS. Sorry, I expect people to be able to voice reasonable opinions of their own that are backed by facts without having some PC person criticise because the comment touches on one of their particular sensitivities. It is where free speech is needed, with cool analysis and telling it like it is, without belabouring the point beyond reason.
   • greywarshark 4.2

     29 August 2019 at 10:51 am

     News – QE2 has sunk to depths uncharted. Salvage by PC is unlikely because of the state of the wreck. A vicissitude of Titanic proportions; it reminds me of the German state making Hitler the Chancellor.

     Why did not the Queen insist, in her precise, measuring way, that it seems unconstitutional to have Parliament in abeyance when there were concerns for the country that are of extreme importance to be thoroughly discussed before finality?
     • greywarshark 4.2.1

       29 August 2019 at 10:56 am

       http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1908/S00151/uk-pm-to-suspend-parliament-queens-speech.htm

       Clever and apt title starts: Untied Kingdom.
     • The Al1en 4.2.2

       29 August 2019 at 11:01 am

       May I suggest if you are going to persist in commentating on the UK and brexit, you undertake a little research, so others don't have to keep posting how wrong you are most of the time.

       It would have been impossible for the Queen to turn down the prime minister's request, our royal correspondent Jonny Dymond writes.

       The Queen acts on the advice of her prime minister.

       While many, many people may be upset that Parliament is not going to sit at such time, precedent is on the side of those making this decision.

       The idea is these things are settled in the Palace of Westminster, not Buckingham Palace.

       The Queen had very little wriggle room to make any kind of political decision.

       https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49495575
       • greywarshark 4.2.2.1

         29 August 2019 at 11:14 am

         May I suggest that you butt out from dropping in on other's comments with total derision and stop playing the superior pedant. What I have said will echo what many people think.

         I myself consider this so important that the Queen, if boxed in by convention or even law, should have pushed it aside and done her duty to all the people of the UK. She put up with Thatcher and to let Johnson and Co. have their way was cowardice despite what advisors might say. She won't keep royalty high in people's allegiance by letting the country go further to the dogs. It is a time of face-off against the barons and merchants of coming doom, and perhaps she is too old for the job.
         • The Al1en 4.2.2.1.1

           29 August 2019 at 11:27 am

           No need to get hurt, it's just a simple request for you to actually find out a miniscule amount of information about the subject you intend to post on, before you actually do it. Clearly this didn't work second time around either @4.2.2.1 🙄
         • Peter Christchurch NZ 4.2.2.1.2

           29 August 2019 at 11:28 am

           Greywarshark, you do not seem to understand the role of the Queen in the UK.

           Even if she wanted to, she could not have have 'pushed it aside…'. Likewise, she had to put up with Thatcher, Blair et al. The Queen is just a figurehead, bound by the constitution. She MUST defer to her Ministers, almost without exception.

           What you are proposing is little short of a royalist revolution, and certainly against the laws of Great Britain, laws that have taken centuries of struggle to wrest the power from an unelected elite.

           Whether you realize it or not, you are proposing that the clock of political freedom be turned back by around 400 years.
           • greywarshark 4.2.2.1.2.1

             29 August 2019 at 1:14 pm

             So now the power is with the elected elite. You people are so unthinking. Everything is changing in the world. The elected government lies to the people who vote according to the lie, and then find out too late, but a slight majority that has been received is enough apparently to start the dissolution of what remains of the marvellous democracy that you are wetting your pants about. So many lies. Tony Blair and WMD so war. Defending that should bring a red blush to your cheek.

             The USA is the same – quoting its founding documents for authority of just about everything it does, just by twisting the words away from their intention at the time it was drawn up. It no longer stands as the rules for a fine nation, rather as a blind for the use of a magician practising legerdemain.

             And the clock is being turned around as we watch, and going back to times we hoped would never return. All the checks and balances produced have been invalidated by complacency, wilful ignorance and assertion of entitlement. We can do this because we are right and they are wrong, and undeserving.

             The ability for a UK government to move on any referendum should have been put in block capitals in the statutes or whatever to be 80 for 20 against. I think that would allow for a telling majority against those who would not budge. All these words in laws etc are just that. and they can be misread, badly administered different from the intent; they aren't unchanging. Humans created them, and if on close scrutiny, they are found to be confusing or misunderstood, they can be changed, and honest, principled people would change them.
             • Peter Christchurch NZ …

               29 August 2019 at 1:23 pm

               'Defending Tony Blair and WMD war'? Hmm, comprehension: E – fail.
             • The Al1en …

               29 August 2019 at 1:33 pm

               In the UK, since it became a constitutional monarchy, the power has always been in the hands of the elected elite. Politicians can lie, make or break promises, get elected then unelected. Welcome to democracy.

               Can't you just admit you didn't have a clue and move on?
               • Dukeofurl …

                 29 August 2019 at 2:59 pm

                 The real effect of what Johnson has done is this:

                 " three days of Parliamentary sittings will be lost in the week after the party conferences. Let me just repeat that – three days 8, 9 and 10 of October."

                 A new PM having a new session of parliament with a Speech from the Throne …thats all . Remember hes only been PM for a month. ( 24th July)
         • Climaction 4.2.2.1.3

           29 August 2019 at 5:09 pm

           ”what I have said will resonate…” trumpian, and completely plays to the point the Al1en was making.
     • Dukeofurl 4.2.3

       29 August 2019 at 11:53 am

       Because the Queen does what the PM asks for …thats what their system is about.

       Maybe the Speaker should go back to his 'strictly neutral' role before the Queen disregards the 'advice' of the PM.

       Two things you forget.

       1) MPs would in recess for 3 weeks anyway as Sept is 'party conference time'

       2) This 'session of parliament' begun back in 2017 , prorogation ends it for a new one in October.
     • Dukeofurl 4.2.4

       29 August 2019 at 11:55 am

       get over your nonsense

       "reminds me of the German state making Hitler the Chancellor."
       • greywarshark 4.2.4.1

         29 August 2019 at 1:00 pm

         You have the imagination and forethought of a goldfish Dukeofurl.
         • Dukeofurl 4.2.4.1.1

           29 August 2019 at 1:20 pm

           Look what happened in Canada – that well known facist dictatorship-after the Harper minority government in 2008 prorogued parliament just after an election when the were facing losing a vote of no confidence and new government from the opposition parties.

           The prorogation was for 2 months not 2 weeks.
           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute

           Much hot air at the time , but life went on.

           Some people seem to substitute muddy waters overseas as an excuse to paddle furiously in them. I suppose it gives meaning to an empty life.

           Dont forget its the height of European newspapers 'silly season', but only this time only the cricket is being taken seriously
         • Climaction 4.2.4.1.2

           29 August 2019 at 5:13 pm

           yet you’ve rolled in with nothing but fake news.

           Progressively, brexit is a nightmare pandering to little Britain. from an environmentalist POV its a god send as it puts the brakes on goods moving round using carbon emssions as they are too easy to tax and prevents people movement with the same benefit.
5. greywarshark 5

   29 August 2019 at 11:01 am

   Ross Meurant is not a well-rounded figure. In his comment he presents his Right side, but look further on and there is no left; just a cardboard facsimile of someone who has learned a bit in life, just enough to sometimes sound like a thinking human. But of course there are many like him around; it is a mast year.

   https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/08/28/guest-blog-ross-meurant-half-way-mark/
6. cleangreen 6

   29 August 2019 at 11:07 am

   Matt King would kill our environnemnt as he can't even say climate change is real So this is our press release. CEAC supports Tribunal criticism of crown freshwater failures Press release from Citizens Environmental Advocacy centre. 29th August 2019. Recent Radio NZ press release covering the Waitangi Tribunal freshwater failures hearings (seen here in this link below) shows a lack of over years of Crown awareness of another “elephant in the room” regarding how other sources of pollution of our freshwater is now seriously been contaminated badly, and shows that the crown over the last 11 years has not used the RMA to protect our degrading water quality, so we wholeheartedly support the tightening of provisions in the RMA to protect our whole natural and built environment to protect everyone in our precious environment. https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/waitangi-tribunal-slams-crown-over-freshwater-failures/ar-AAGrxFe Regarding the “elephant in the room” being the not previously considered by the crown; – let us clarify; Recently on (Thursday, 22 August 2019) our centre (Citizens Environmental Advocacy Centre, ‘CEAC’ ) discussed this issue of ‘road pollution runoff’ as the “elephant in the room” in a press release – see in this link below; http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE1908/S00089/drinking-water-quality-improved-by-using-rail.htm Quote; We at CEAC believe ‘this is the elephant in the room now’ as we already know from the ‘NZ Ministry of Transport’ documented studies from the 2002 report entitled “Emission Factors for Contaminants Released from Motor Vehicles in NZ” Fuels and Energy Management Group December 2002. https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Import/Documents/9fa2b3a10b/stormwater-emission-factors.pdf That report shows that tyre particulates have many toxic chemicals that are known to be harmful to humans. These are already found to be freely released in the tyre dust as we drive and are then washed off our roads into our drains, streams, rivers, lakes and aquifers, and finally into our drinking water, so we are part of the problem already now. EV vehicles will still emit the same tyre dust toxins as regular gasoline vehicles do. The new scientific German report https://www.sott.net/article/418585-Plastic-particles-falling-out-of-sky-with-snow-in-the-Arctic ‘Raining plastic’ – QUOTE “fragments of rubber tyres”. Un-Quote; So now we see the ‘Transmission Gully’ mega NZTA roading project has been found to be causing the “silt build-up now chocking the nearby coastal estuaries and causing very long term serious damage to the life of all aquatic species including kai moana which is the tāonga – life-blood of Māori Iwi/hapu. Bluntly; the RMA definitely failed us all here especially over the ‘loosely controlled’ activities of the road builder NZTA; We quote; Presiding officer Chief Judge Wilson Isaac; "The RMA has allowed a serious degradation of water quality to occur in many ancestral water bodies, which are now in a highly vulnerable state," he said. “RMA did not provide adequately for the tino rangatiratanga and the kaitiakitanga of iwi and hapū over their freshwater tāonga.” CEAC believes NZTA must be “heavily regulated” by having the Ministry of health, Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of Transport along with the Government stepping in here and placing ‘new controls over the road builder going forwards’ now so NZTA actually comply with strict regulatory rules to protect all those living near their roads in future. From this time forward we expect to see serious care and consideration be written into the RMA to stop the widespread pollution and emissions of ‘air and water carrying pollution’ and ‘road- runoff‘ being washed of NZTA roads and carried through air pollution from tyre wear from tyre dust and exhaust emissions from over use activities of heavy truck freight particularly. We at CEAC have always advocated for widespread use of rail, as an environmentally friendly transport system and with national party policy of overuse of ‘freight trucks’ on our regional roads is now destroying our ‘natural/coastal and built’ residential environments alike and endangering our health and wellbeing. Secretary. CEAC.
   • Yorick 6.1

     29 August 2019 at 11:20 am

     Um, yeah. Can you give us the gist ?
     • Bearded Git 6.1.1

       29 August 2019 at 11:46 am

       Exactly Yorick…I seldom read long posts.
       • greywarshark 6.1.1.1

         29 August 2019 at 12:59 pm

         It's a thoughtful and detailed post from Cleangreen with research and study from the Gisborne group? for a long time as they have looked at rail and road and assessed their costs and benefits.

         I thought it would be good to know what it's all about so have put it into paragraphs for readability and hope this is satisfactory. It would be unfortunate if the work in writing it was not matched by useful knowledge gained from it.

         Matt King would kill our environnemnt as he can't even say climate change is real So this is our press release. CEAC supports Tribunal criticism of crown freshwater failures Press release from Citizens Environmental Advocacy centre. 29th August 2019.

         Recent Radio NZ press release covering the Waitangi Tribunal freshwater failures hearings (seen here in this link below) shows a lack of over years of Crown awareness of another “elephant in the room” regarding how other sources of pollution of our freshwater is now seriously been contaminated badly, and shows that the crown over the last 11 years has not used the RMA to protect our degrading water quality, so we wholeheartedly support the tightening of provisions in the RMA to protect our whole natural and built environment to protect everyone in our precious environment. https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/waitangi-tribunal-slams-crown-over-freshwater-failures/ar-AAGrxFe

         Regarding the “elephant in the room” being the not previously considered by the crown; – let us clarify; Recently on (Thursday, 22 August 2019) our centre (Citizens Environmental Advocacy Centre, ‘CEAC’ ) discussed this issue of ‘road pollution runoff’ as the “elephant in the room” in a press release – see in this link below; http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE1908/S00089/drinking-water-quality-improved-by-using-rail.htm

         Quote; We at CEAC believe ‘this is the elephant in the room now’ as we already know from the ‘NZ Ministry of Transport’ documented studies from the 2002 report entitled “Emission Factors for Contaminants Released from Motor Vehicles in NZ” Fuels and Energy Management Group December 2002. https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Import/Documents/9fa2b3a10b/stormwater-emission-factors.pdf

         That report shows that tyre particulates have many toxic chemicals that are known to be harmful to humans. These are already found to be freely released in the tyre dust as we drive and are then washed off our roads into our drains, streams, rivers, lakes and aquifers, and finally into our drinking water, so we are part of the problem already now. EV vehicles will still emit the same tyre dust toxins as regular gasoline vehicles do.

         The new scientific German report https://www.sott.net/article/418585-Plastic-particles-falling-out-of-sky-with-snow-in-the-Arctic ‘Raining plastic’ – QUOTE “fragments of rubber tyres”. Un-Quote; So now we see the ‘Transmission Gully’ mega NZTA roading project has been found to be causing the “silt build-up now chocking the nearby coastal estuaries and causing very long term serious damage to the life of all aquatic species including kai moana which is the tāonga – life-blood of Māori Iwi/hapu.

         Bluntly; the RMA definitely failed us all here especially over the ‘loosely controlled’ activities of the road builder NZTA; We quote; Presiding officer Chief Judge Wilson Isaac; "The RMA has allowed a serious degradation of water quality to occur in many ancestral water bodies, which are now in a highly vulnerable state," he said. “RMA did not provide adequately for the tino rangatiratanga and the kaitiakitanga of iwi and hapū over their freshwater tāonga.”

         CEAC believes NZTA must be “heavily regulated” by having the Ministry of health, Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of Transport along with the Government stepping in here and placing ‘new controls over the road builder going forwards’ now so NZTA actually comply with strict regulatory rules to protect all those living near their roads in future.

         From this time forward we expect to see serious care and consideration be written into the RMA to stop the widespread pollution and emissions of ‘air and water carrying pollution’ and ‘road- runoff‘ being washed of NZTA roads and carried through air pollution from tyre wear from tyre dust and exhaust emissions from over use activities of heavy truck freight particularly.

         We at CEAC have always advocated for widespread use of rail, as an environmentally friendly transport system and with national party policy of overuse of ‘freight trucks’ on our regional roads is now destroying our ‘natural/coastal and built’ residential environments alike and endangering our health and wellbeing. Secretary. CEAC.
         • Andre 6.1.1.1.1

           29 August 2019 at 1:58 pm

           That "Gisborne group?" appears to consist of cleangreen and one or two of his family members. I've had more than just a cursory look online, and the only names I've ever seen associated with CEAC have been either cleangreen's IRL name or someone sharing the same surname. I believe the term for that is "astroturfing".

           Apart from calling Matt King names and the link to the Waitangi Tribunal statement, the rest looks like just a repaste of the same stuff cleangreen pastes here over and over ad nauseum.
           • greywarshark 6.1.1.1.1.1

             29 August 2019 at 2:30 pm

             What the hell? Why are you kicking over Cleangreen and what the ginger group call themselves. Some of you are such a nasty negative lot. You don't seem interested in advancing and helping NZs, talking about ideas, exchanging info etc. and getting together with others to get us out of the hole we are in.

             You just want to sit in negative judgment and do nothing useful, indeed actually destroy spirit. I find you despicable Andre in 6 111… You are ad nauseum big time.
             • Dukeofurl …

               29 August 2019 at 2:53 pm

               Exchanging ideas…is that what you call your endless snippets of nothing.

               In the real world its called concern trolling …perhaps someone should show you how on Twitter and Facebook . They would love your work
               • greywarshark …

                 29 August 2019 at 7:51 pm

                 In the real world dukeofurl you are swamping the blog with your negatives. Preventing discussion. I don't know what your other blog sites call it, have you nothing else to do except push your dislike of fellow citizens with sneers and supposed superior information which is usually not accompanied by sources.
       • Wensleydale 6.1.1.2

         29 August 2019 at 2:00 pm

         It's not so much the length, it's more the lack of paragraphs. White space is your friend.
     • Puckish Rogue 6.1.2

       29 August 2019 at 12:08 pm

       Matt King bad, rail good.
       • Peter Christchurch NZ 6.1.2.1

         29 August 2019 at 1:22 pm

         Sometimes rail is efficient, othertimes woefully not.

         Using a truck to, say, take stock from a farm near Oxford in Canterbury to the Freezing works in Christchurch is hugely more efficient and environmentally friendly compared to what used to happen there, where a truck took it to the Oxford railhead, then railed to ChCh, then shunted around back to Belfast. In almost all rural cases, rail is environmentally inferior to road.

         Rail is great for point to point, and particularly for bulk freight. Less so for small consignments and seldom at all for non point to point.
         • Puckish Rogue 6.1.2.1.1

           29 August 2019 at 2:14 pm

           Agreed, NZ is unfortunately too small for the kind of rail most people would like. Having said that I wouldn't mind seeing more rail used, where it makes sense to use it
           • bwaghorn 6.1.2.1.1.1

             29 August 2019 at 2:25 pm

             I've been to Auckland and Wellington in the last few months and would have jumped a train in both cases in ohakune if there was a morning and evening daily service. (I did jump on the train at paraparaumu for the welly trip. )
             • Puckish Rogue …

               29 August 2019 at 2:38 pm

               Yep that makes sense
         • KJT 6.1.2.1.2

           29 August 2019 at 5:52 pm

           That is more to do with the lack of money invested in extending the rail network, compared with mega billions spent on roads, rather than relative efficiency.
           • Peter Christchurh nz 6.1.2.1.2.1

             29 August 2019 at 7:49 pm

             Partly at least. At least this government has given rail a chance.
   • phillip ure 6.2

     29 August 2019 at 11:26 am

     we don't celebrate the invention of the paragraph – anywhere near enough….
     • Incognito 6.2.1

       29 August 2019 at 11:33 am

       
     • Gabby 6.2.2

       29 August 2019 at 7:28 pm

       I Celebrate The Upper Case Daily Filly.
7. Puckish Rogue 7

   29 August 2019 at 11:53 am

   So Michael Moores latest production: Planet of the Humans could see him excommunicated, crucified and vilified by the left.

   Interesting to see how well it does
   • weka 7.1

     29 August 2019 at 11:58 am

     Planet of the Humans dares to say what no one will—that we are losing the battle to stop climate change because we are following environmental leaders who have taken us down the wrong road—selling out the green movement to wealthy interests and corporate America.

     http://planetofthehumans.com/

     Um, lots of people have been saying this for a long time. It's hardly controversial. That situation (green tech BAU) is a consequence of right wing and neoliberal control. Criticising it is entirely within the purview of the left. I just wrote about it in the Saving our Rivers post. Although tbf, I also criticised the traditional left for its long held position of jobs before nature.
     • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1

       29 August 2019 at 12:05 pm

       Sure but there's also one heckuva lot of people that see the climate change movement as an almost religious movement so Michael may well see himself cast in a new light, that of the betrayer of the faith

       I however am doing my part by trading in my older SUV for a 2019 diesel ute and our older car for 2019 small hatchback and yes I'm feeling quite virtuous because they're much better for the environment especially compared to electric vehicles
       • adam 7.1.1.1

         29 August 2019 at 12:16 pm

         Feeling virtuous by having a car – what a flop.
         • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1.1

           29 August 2019 at 2:08 pm

           By upgrading I'll be using less fossil fuels and diesel is better for the environment so yeah we all gotta play our part no matter how small that part is

           Maybe something Greta Thunberg (or her father) might have liked to consider:

           https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/sailing-team-fly-crew-us-bring-thunberg-boat-65021301

           'The sailing team that's taking climate activist Greta Thunberg from England to the United States aboard a high-tech racing yacht says it will fly two crew across the Atlantic to bring the boat back, but that the carbon emissions from their flights will be compensated for.'
           • weka 7.1.1.1.1.1

             29 August 2019 at 2:15 pm

             why didn't you buy an EV?
             • Puckish Rogue …

               29 August 2019 at 2:35 pm

               Numerous reasons but among them is the reliance of rare earth metals, not always having access to a charger, modern engines being far more efficient then ever before, not sure of how many mechanics are qualified to work on electric vehicles, petrol and diesel easier to source and finally the price
               • weka …

                 29 August 2019 at 3:00 pm

                 the charger one is an issue for me too, but none of the EVs are affordable to me so I don't have to make the decision yet.
                 • Puckish Rogue …

                   29 August 2019 at 3:03 pm

                   The range and how long it takes to charge are issues as well
                   • weka …

                     29 August 2019 at 3:16 pm

                     Yep. I'm ok with changing my behaviour around those things (we're all going to have to do that eventually so may as well get used to it), but I'm not sure the rural South Island is there yet for making it feasible. I wonder how the AA are handling this.
                   • Dukeofurl …

                     29 August 2019 at 4:34 pm

                     I read somewhere that EV have in their GPS system all charging locations ( regular updates)

                     You pop in your destination, it looks at the distance and likely speed etc , reads the existing charge in the batteries and will ROUTE you via the suitable charging spots to enable the journey to complete. This was for the UK where there are 1000s of chargers now- as many public chargers as petrol/diesel service stations ( each station would have multiple pumps though)
                   • weka …

                     29 August 2019 at 4:40 pm

                     betting that doesn't work in NZ with Japanese imports which are programmed for Japan.
                   • Puckish Rogue …

                     29 August 2019 at 6:30 pm

                     It would be ok as a town car but you wouldn't want to trust it taking to the more rural areas of NZ

                     https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/how-long-to-charge-an-electric-car

                     'The time it takes to charge an electric car can be as little as 30 minutes or more than 12 hours. This depends on the size of the battery and the speed of the charging point. A typical electric car(60kWh battery) takes just under 8 hours to charge from empty-to-full with a 7kW charging point.'
                   • weka …

                     29 August 2019 at 6:44 pm

                     Map of charging points. Green are public, orange are fast charge.

                     https://driveelectric.org.nz/chargers-map/
                   • Puckish Rogue …

                     29 August 2019 at 7:36 pm

                     Thats a lot more than I thought but price is still a major factor, maybe when I look to replace this car I'll look at an ev
                   • weka …

                     29 August 2019 at 7:48 pm

                     some of those might be pending. I tend to last about a decade with a car, so by the time I'm looking for the next one both the cars and the charging points will have changed significantly. If I had enough money I'd probably do it now and make it work.
           • adam 7.1.1.1.1.2

             29 August 2019 at 6:35 pm

             wow really missed the point – must be a tory thing…
       • weka 7.1.1.2

         29 August 2019 at 12:20 pm

         yeah, nah. The climate movement isn't a monolith, but for instance in NZ, mainstream orgs that have been leading the way on climate action (Greenpeace, Green Party) are full of people who know the score about green BAU and greenwashing. Those orgs have been forced into taking a middle of the road approach, because of deniers and people dragging the chain.

         Lots of the movement is outside of the US too.
       • Psycho Milt 7.1.1.3

         29 August 2019 at 12:54 pm

         …there's also one heckuva lot of people that see the climate change movement as an almost religious movement…

         Most of them right-wingers who think AGW is a hoax. Those guys seem more inclined to cheer Moore on when it comes to this movie, because they don't understand the difference between environmentalism and greenwashing.
   • Gabby 7.2

     29 August 2019 at 7:29 pm

     So why puckers?
8. joe90 8

   29 August 2019 at 11:59 am

   When you lose the FT..

   https://twitter.com/OilSheppard/status/1166784521930465280
   • Agora 8.1

     29 August 2019 at 2:32 pm

     It reminds me of the febrile atmosphere in Sydney during the Dismissal.

     Qui bono ?

     https://www.theguardian.com › australia-news › oct › prince-charles-knew-…

     https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/28/cross-party-rebel-alliance-gears-up-for-brexit-clash-with-johnson
9. weka 9

   29 August 2019 at 12:32 pm

   Chris Trotter just wrote a piece imagining if Jacinda Ardern died, apparently as a way of commemorating Big Norm's death anniversary and making the point that… I'm not sure what exactly, something about the gloss coming off?

   It's at TDB if you want to read it. Weird. 'We really hope it doesn't happen, but let's now speculate if it does', it's all a bit Daily Mail.
   • Dukeofurl 9.1

     29 August 2019 at 12:39 pm

     He never really got over Women leading the labour party- somehow its not 'industrial' as in freezing works and coal mines and cloth caps
     • Peter Christchurch NZ 9.1.1

       29 August 2019 at 1:55 pm

       I seldom take any notice of what Chris Trotter says. He just likes to drone on and on and make constant references to obscure and totally irrelevant classical myths. Just a silly old borish dinasaur really.

       I see he writes now for the BFD (and before that for Whaleoils Incite). Clearly happy to associate with anyone who will give him oxygen, no matter how criminal, hypocritical or thuggish.
10. joe90 10

    29 August 2019 at 12:35 pm

    Novel way of getting around those damn campaign finance laws.

    /

    Federal Election Commission Vice Chairman Matthew Petersen announced his resignation today.

    This means the agency that enforces and regulates the nation’s campaign finance laws will effectively shut down — something that hasn’t happened since 2008 — because it won’t have the legal minimum of four commissioners to make high-level decisions.

    Petersen’s resignation, first reported by the Washington Examiner, will throw the FEC into turmoil for weeks — and perhaps months — as the nation enters the teeth of 2020 presidential and congressional elections.

    For now, the FEC can’t conduct meetings.

    It can’t slap political scofflaws with fines.

    It can’t make rules.

    It can’t conduct audits and approve them.

    It can’t vote on the outcome of investigations.

    https://publicintegrity.org/federal-politics/federal-election-commission-fec-to-effectively-shut-down/
11. Dukeofurl 11

    29 August 2019 at 12:36 pm

    When you lose the FT..
    That doesnt say what you/Sheppard claim at all.

    They just say "for ardent remainers and Liberal democrats, THEY may also require a Corbyn caretaker government."

    There isnt going to be a 'Corbyn caretaker governmen't , but the next 2 weeks means they can try. Its not Australia where the Governor General can dismiss the PM ( as per their written constitution)
    • Dukeofurl 11.1

      29 August 2019 at 1:49 pm

      Just checked the full FT editorial and I was wrong about the snippet.

      Then again the FT has been pro remain and anti any sort of Brexit, so it figures
      • Dukeofurl 11.1.1

        29 August 2019 at 3:09 pm

        That Outrager- in- chief Blair used to regularly prorogue parliament for 12 weeks.

        But how times change , anything about leaving the EU is now all sorts of incendiary words, even Boris adding 3 sitting days to the September break

        The Speech from the Throne , after debate, can be voted down by a majority and thats when Johnsons government would fall. Thats the usual process to get rid of him.
12. Kay 12

    29 August 2019 at 12:46 pm

    I met a real live climate change denier 🙁

    Being given a lift home, we got covered in diesel fumes from an ancient 'temporary replacement' bus in front of us. I lamented the loss of the trolley buses on that route, and how the GWRC STILL haven't even bothered getting us the promised electric bus replacements.

    I've never had a fellow Wellingtonian disagree with that assessment of things until now. What I got from this lady, I wonder if she watches Fox in her down time. "I don't believe in this Global warming nonsense…it's a natural occurring phenomena….giant con job….all about businesses making money….that thing in Tuvalu recently, that was a con…."etc etc

    I didn't even bother responding, reacting or anything. She's an elderly lady (and no, I am not for one moment making generalisations!) and I really don't think it was possible to have a civil debate on the matter. It was was extremely upsetting though. Of course I know they exist but sometimes I rather not know who they are.
    • Dukeofurl 12.1

      29 August 2019 at 1:28 pm

      Did you wonder why the Greens get 6% and the national party gets 43%.

      She seemed to be at the extreme end but a lot of voters are in the mild climate change category, because they are older ( grew up in a period when nuclear war seemed almost certain, but wasnt) or seen more adversity than millennials who are addicted to mobile devices.
    • Peter Christchurch NZ 12.2

      29 August 2019 at 1:30 pm

      Yes, but part of the reason for the cynicism is due to the ludicrous doomsday prophecies of the last 25 years, and the hypocrisy of many of those pushing an often self serving barrow.

      Al Gore springs immediately to mind, but he is but one. It is down to these people that the reality of climate change is not more widely accepted.
    • Wensleydale 12.3

      29 August 2019 at 2:07 pm

      People have bizarre and irrational viewpoints all the time. I wouldn't let it upset you. At the end of the day you've got to have a chuckle, because if you didn't laugh at the state of the world you'd probably throw yourself off a building. Whenever I find myself railing at the television, my kids remind me that the television isn't a person, the people on the television can't actually hear me, and I should probably calm down and go make a cup of tea. Kids are clever like that.
      • Incognito 12.3.1

        29 August 2019 at 3:24 pm

        

        … the people on the television can't actually hear me …

        Not so sure about this; it is becoming more common to hack smart TVs and other devices that control your life, including the camera …

        Even Apple’s Siri conversations can be overheard and recorded …

        Some people think that IoT is something to look forward to but to others it is more like a dystopian near—future.
      • Kay 12.3.2

        29 August 2019 at 3:43 pm

        @Wens, very true! I'm almost over the shock of the encounter now. What can one do but laugh at some people. It's (almost) a shame she won't be around to experience the fruits of her denial, living as she does right on Lyall Bay. Although with that sort of extremism I'd imagine the more frequent inundations, coastal erosion, extreme storm surges etc, it would all be 'naturally occurring'
        • Dukeofurl 12.3.2.1

          29 August 2019 at 3:59 pm

          Lyall Bay ?

          While the waves on Lyall Bay beach are great for surfing, they are anything but ideal for infrastructure. On September 16, 1916, the Evening Post reported on a southerly depression, which was responsible for exceptionally high tides. Seawater crossed Lyall Parade and reached well over the road. Marine debris was spread across the parade.

          Sea storms and surges are an annual event on Lyall Parade. But resident Suzi Wilson isn’t worried about tsunamis.

          “Winter time is when the sea washes up on to the road. Logs end up all over the footpath.” She has developed a passion for collecting shells and debris washed up on the beach since moving to the parade five years ago. She displays her collection inside and outside of her home.

          The first life-saving clubhouse was washed away in a storm only a few months after being built by Wellington City Council in 1910. "
          The current 2018 building replaced a 1957 one and maybe a new building after 1910 one was destroyed and then replaced in 1957.
          Maybe living by the seaside with large waves has made that lady more resiliant

          http://www.massey.ac.nz/~wwjourn/surfing-stormy-history/
13. mac1 13

    29 August 2019 at 2:06 pm

    https://issuu.com/blenheimsun/docs/blenheim_sun_190828

    There is a picture on page 4 of the 28 August Blenheim Sun family advised me of. It shows a Year 13 form photo in which a large lad in centre picture holds a baby.

    Shades of the Trevor Mallard Effect. It is now allowable for young men to be pictured proudly and happily dandling babies. The opposite to 'toxic masculinity"!
    • Psycho Milt 13.1

      29 August 2019 at 2:15 pm

      If there's something to be proud of about making a baby while you're still in school, I'm not sure what it would be.
      • mac1 13.1.1

        29 August 2019 at 2:24 pm

        Psycho Milt, the baby is that of his form teacher. He is not the father, just as Speaker Mallard is not the father of the children he dandled while in the Speaker's chair.

        Turn the page to page four!
14. bwaghorn 14

    29 August 2019 at 2:14 pm

    https://farmersweekly.co.nz/section/other-sectors/view/farmers-efforts-to-be-rewarded

    Thankyou thankyou thankyou.

    Good words from Shaw and co .
15. Exkiwiforces 15

    29 August 2019 at 2:54 pm

    Well well, someone is telling porky pies now and I don’t trust either side on who is telling the truth or who is talking a load of bollocks.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/declassified-us-intelligence-documents-sheds-light-timor-leste/11459284

    The only part that is right is the supply line from Darwin to ET did crash 7 times in the first 2 to 3mths from memory. As our Rifle Flight was on 24hr E ration packs for 21days straight and which almost sent us Trop’o or native and it was quicker to get boots, bog roll etc via the mailman than via the supply chain.

    Ah the joys of INTERFET, the good, the bad and the ugly.
    • Dukeofurl 15.1

      29 August 2019 at 3:16 pm

      Interesting. Wondering about comparing Timor Leste with Hong Kong in the current unrest.

      Its the same but different. Murderous gangs supported by the government …that could be a method the Beijing government could use as 'plausible denial' in the way China does and no one believes them ..the US has this problem too.
    • Agora 15.2

      29 August 2019 at 3:59 pm

      Re. "My memories of .."

      What's new ?
16. Yorick 16

    29 August 2019 at 3:35 pm

    Polly Toynbee: "A civil war state of mind now threatens our democracy"

    "Boris Johnson’s assault on parliament is unprecedented, but he can – and must – be stopped

    "This country that self-identified so smugly as stable, tolerant and moderate, with a crown to symbolise traditions honed down the centuries, is revealed as fissile, fragile and ferociously divided. A constitution that relied on gentlemanly governments’ willingness to bow to parliament has evaporated, blown away now it’s led by a man who doesn’t give a damn for parliamentary sovereignty: taking back control is for him alone. He is ready to destroy anything that threatens his ambition."
    <snip>
    I asked Bob Kerslake, former head of the civil service, where their duty lies in this unprecedented situation.

    We are reaching the point where the civil service must consider putting its stewardship of the country ahead of service to the government of the day,” he said. That is a devastating verdict."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/28/proroguation-parliament-boris-johnson-brexit

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-29-08-2019/
    • Dukeofurl 16.1

      29 August 2019 at 4:08 pm

      Hehehe.

      Parliament has lost only 3 sitting days because of the prorogation ended the longest session of parliament since the 1600s.

      After the Queens Speech , Mps can vote against it and if they have a majority Johnson has to resign.

      Thats parliament doing what its always done.

      Did the Remain diehards and the Guardian elite really think they and Bercow were going to twist all the rules to suit their agenda like they have been doing ?
      • Gabby 16.1.1

        29 August 2019 at 7:38 pm

        HeHeHe's clearly limiting the ability of Parliament to thwart his vile plot Dooky. Three days or thirty isn't the point.
        • greywarshark 16.1.1.1

          29 August 2019 at 8:08 pm

          Latest on Brexit and Boorish. David Townsend refers to Johnson 'smirking' which seems apt. (* David Townsend is an ex-UK Parliamentary Labour candidate, a former Labour ministerial speech writer and special adviser and contributor to The Guardian, The Independent and The Times.)

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/397747/brexit-boris-johnson-goes-for-the-nuclear-option

          Johnson himself claims his action is to enable his government to present its policies on matters such as education, law and order and health spending in a Queen's Speech. Inevitably his pomposity and smirking appearance making the announcement means few will believe him. His decision is likely to be challenged in the courts by MPs and others.

          Why?

          With Prime Minister Johnson's October 31st deadline of leaving the EU with or without a "deal", the reassembly of Parliament on the 14th October leaves only a limited time for opposition MPs to produce legislation to stop a "no deal" exit. It is clear the Speaker of the Commons – who was not consulted by Johnson on this timetable – would assist MPs in their opposition to a "no deal".

          When Parliament reassembles next week before being pro-rogued the options open to oppose are really limited. A no confidence motion in the government might succeed but only if sufficient Conservative MPs are prepared to bring down the Johnson government and probably be de-selected as Conservative candidates in an ensuing election. Or if selected again lose their seats.,,,

          And what of the EU? Dismay at the staggering ineptitude of the oldest democracy in Europe is most commonly reflected in the European media. The third PM in the UK in three years and still no consensus. A Parliament that rejected three times the painstakingly negotiated deal with the EU by the last prime minister.

          The EU is obliged to wait on events and ask the UK as it has over the last three years to be clear about what it wants and then discuss what it can reasonably expect, given the EU is a body of 27 nations with political and economic shared interests and not the local golf club.
        • Dukeofurl 16.1.1.2

          29 August 2019 at 8:17 pm

          Do try to keep up….

          Boris wants to leave under the Deal – with backstop removed.

          Thats not a vile plot. EU wont budge until the it can see the remainers in parliament have been royally screwed.

          EU always wants to thwart any referendum that goes against them ….happened many times Norway is good example- voted 2x against but they are stuck in EU web

          In Denmark, two referendums were held before the treaty of Maastricht passed. The first one rejected the treaty.

          Ireland had 2 referendums to finally get Treaty of Nice approved

          France and Netherlands voted against 2005 European Constitution but the EU just changed the rules in a different way to thwart the anti votes

          Again the Irish had to have a 2nd vote after they first rejected Treaty of Lisbon

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union
17. Exkiwiforces 17

    29 August 2019 at 3:41 pm

    Good to this RNZN/ MOD project is slowly getting some traction, since the two inservice OPV’s are no longer fit for purpose for Southern Ocean Patrols due to the changing environment in the Southern Ocean as a result of CC, which nearly seen one of the OPV’s capsized last year or the year before on a run down Sth.

    The story goes that Ronnie was up on the bridge at time, where he went white as sheet, Ms Sage was down the back chatting with the DoC staff, the boffins (one of my cousins was on that trip for his PhD) and the film crew when the OPV got smacked with shit flying about/ rolling all over the place, and the other cousin who is in the Jack Tar’s as a cook was on duty having a shit of time the galley when the OPV got smacked.

    The Civilians including Ms Sage weren’t told about what happened or how close to Davie Jones locker they were until they returned back to NZ, as it happened about 3/4 mark on the trip down Sth to the Auckland or Campbell Islands which ever is the furthest.

    There is talk at various levels that this new SOPV with possibly one or two of the IPV’s maybe based in Dunedin/ Port Chamlers if the Odt is anything to go by. (Sorry don’t have the link for that one).

    https://www.gets.govt.nz/MD/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=21465150
    • Dukeofurl 17.1

      29 August 2019 at 4:18 pm

      Land lubbers always think rough weather is 'almost capsize'.

      Im guessing this is just another unfunded project on someones wish list. RNZN doesnt need it and the funding wishing well is depleted by gold plating on recent purchases such as Poseidon and new Hercs ( used RAF ones of the latest J model would be fine!)
18. Adrian 18

    29 August 2019 at 4:57 pm

    What a farce! Greta Thunberg has sailed into New York to be greeted by her parents who FLEW there, no doubt accompanied by her PR team of God knows how many.

    This makes a complete mockery of the message which I suspect in time will turn out to be a money making scam orchestrated by her father if various reports are to be believed.

    Engineering wise the boat she sailed on uses considerably more construction material per person per kilometre than the aircraft her parents used. It may use wind but it still has a marine engine of some size.
    • Robert Guyton 18.1

      29 August 2019 at 5:51 pm

      Greta travelled by sailboat. The rest is immaterial. Everything can be challenged and criticised but Greta didn't fly, she spent 2 weeks aboard a sailboat; stop belly-aching and put your energy into something useful. Criticising the actions of a 16 year-old girl is kinda…silly.
      • SHG 18.1.1

        29 August 2019 at 6:22 pm

        The sailing team that's taking climate activist Greta Thunberg from England to the United States aboard a high-tech racing yacht says it will fly two crew across the Atlantic to bring the boat back

        https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/sailing-team-fly-crew-us-bring-thunberg-boat-65021301
      • Adrian 18.1.2

        29 August 2019 at 6:30 pm

        It's the action of her parents I'm criticising , she is almost certainly the product of a very sophisticated rort. Pretty much any other child and a competent school essay can be spun into this sort of media personality with the aid of the type of public relations professionals that her father has engaged. It's bullshit. That boat was organised months and months ago.
        • Puckish Rogue 18.1.2.1

          29 August 2019 at 6:41 pm

          Yeah its not good, heres a young woman with depression and mental health issues being pushed into the spotlight big time

          I mean its not like young people thrust into the spotlight at an early age ever end up regretting it (yeah sarcasm)

          Her parents should be taking a long, hard look at themselves over this
          • McFlock 18.1.2.1.1

            29 August 2019 at 6:46 pm

            🙄 thanks for your concern
        • McFlock 18.1.2.2

          29 August 2019 at 6:45 pm

          She's not too far wrong, though.

          A bit of planning, lateral thinking, and community suggestions, and we can find alternatives to the things we now burn fossils on.

          Yes, it was a symbolic act. Tokenistic, even. Lots of fodder for the people who hate change. But now people are arguing about alternatives to flying everywhere for conferences, so… not a bad thing, overall.
      • Puckish Rogue 18.1.3

        29 August 2019 at 6:38 pm

        https://twitter.com/neilukip/status/1153983337729613824
      • In Vino 18.1.4

        29 August 2019 at 6:48 pm

        True, Robert. Because if she had flown, the simpletons on the Right would all have screamed, "Hypocrite!" – their empty, unthinking response. Because she has not flown, they cannot do that.

        For more normal people, it is facile to insist that anyone who preaches that burning fossil fuels should be reduced should never ever in their lives ever again benefit from any atom of fossil fuel burnt.

        In our modern world, that argument is a stupid distraction pushed by those who wish to avoid serious discussion of the real issue – why we do actually need to reduce our burning of fossil fuels. It is ad hominem – shooting the messenger, and ignoring the message.

        But even on this site, we have a number of Righties who like to try such juvenile crap. Pushing 'Practice what you Preach' to such a silly level is just moronic. We all have to use fossil fuels in some way in modern society. This does not mean that one cannot campaign for a future change for us all.

        And for any numpties still wanting a reason to scream, "Hypocrite!" at Greta, she is trying to warn us about Global warning overall, not exclusively the fossil fuel thing.

        Are you going to scream, "Hypocrite!" at her for daring to breathe and thereby produce carbon dioxide?

        That would be no less stupid than the previous 'Hypocrite' argument.
        • greywarshark 18.1.4.1

          29 August 2019 at 7:11 pm

          No one on the Right is a simpleton. They have all worked out the advantages of wilful ignorance, and of spending all their time carping, criticising and demoralising the people they have decided to discriminate against. It saves them from thinking hard and change would make a difference, perhaps lessen their present level of satisfaction, so their wants must take precedence. They will continue this behaviour on principle, even if what is planned by the progressives will advantage them – because that's what they do. Lemmings the lot.
          • In Vino 18.1.4.1.1

            29 August 2019 at 9:54 pm

            Yes, the cunning ratbags use simpleton arguments.. I sort of meant that.
    • KJT 18.2

      31 August 2019 at 5:18 pm

      Oh. The perennial, " you used a plastic bag once, so you are hypocritical talking about AGW" argument.

      To go with the "exploited girl". Argument.

      The first argument is simply ridiculous, the second just shows the misogyny and ignorance of the person making it.

      It is almost always climate change deniers and misogynists that come up with either. The two lots of attitudes seem to often occur in the same person.

      16 year old, Young women, can and, do think for themselves.
19. greywarshark 19

    29 August 2019 at 7:45 pm

    I wonder how many leftish people still blog here? The path seems to be wide open to the gang who gather to bark and chew at those who come here and want to discuss what the left can do and celebrate what it has.
    • In Vino 19.1

      29 August 2019 at 10:00 pm

      I think there is a sustained campaign by a low number of trolls operating under several pseudonyms each aimed at creating the situation you describe. Discouraging positivity is easy for them. But I am one of those conspiracy theorists..
      • Incognito 19.1.1

        29 August 2019 at 10:16 pm

        If you mean sockpoppets, I’d like to think we do have a pretty good handle on those.

        The problem as I see it is that too many people here bite and don’t let go. Sometimes, I don’t know which one is worse, the ‘troll’ or the one who gives them oxygen – it becomes a symbiotic act of creating noise and counter-noise and in the end you cannot tell who is or does what. In fact, it doesn’t really matter because what matters is the noise and it is all noise coming from both sides. You don’t want noise, don’t make noise (back).
        • In Vino 19.1.1.1

          29 August 2019 at 10:26 pm

          Yes, Incognito – I do not envy you the efforts you put in to controlling this maelstrom.

          We all ignore one thing, but get fired up and respond to another, often depending on how good we think our response is.

          Maybe you are helping us all with some kind of therapeutic outlet?

          I hope that the best political policies and ideas benefit from all this, but fear that the path will be a long and winding way. (Damn those silly old pop songs..)
          • Incognito 19.1.1.1.1

            29 August 2019 at 10:48 pm

            Nah, I/we don’t control anything here, we (i.e. the Moderators) are just the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff so to speak. The real control (or better: influence) is with the people who comment here, who make the site what it is IMO.

            My secret suspicion is that there is no destiny at the end of the path and that the path is it. In saying that, we can, of course, look back and see how far or how high we have come, or not for that matter. We can also follow footsteps in the sand or snow, hoping that we’ll reach a special place (of rescue or salvation perhaps) only to realise, after some time, that we are tracing or own footsteps. Life is a funny thing when you think about it …

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