Open mike 29/11/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 29th, 2024 - 66 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


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66 comments on “Open mike 29/11/2024 ”

  1. Ad 1
    29 November 2024 at 6:54 am

    An impressively bold step from the Australian Labor government to ban social media for young people. That and the vaping ban are massive social controls.

    Best of luck Albanese.

    Reply
    • Res Publica 1.2
      29 November 2024 at 7:07 am

      As someone that works in tech, I have no idea how the Australian government thinks they can effectively enforce the social media ban.

      The internet is highly decentralised and deregulated by design.

      Reply
      • Ad 1.2.1
        29 November 2024 at 7:41 am

        The UK and Norway are proposing similar bans, and France has had it in place since 2023 (access with parental permission).

        Social media has a faster corrosion of functioning democracy than regulated broadcast media, as well as a faster capacity for individual control by the state itself.

        I'm hoping the Republican administration can extract Elon Musk off the brain of Trump and prepare to pass legislation making social media subject to the same liabilities and regulations as broadcast media. Not saying it will be easy.

        Otherwise, I fear democracy simply won't survive as a credible decisionmaking system in the world.

        Reply
        • SPC 1.2.1.2
          29 November 2024 at 3:47 pm

          They ended the requirement for "public media" to have fair/balanced reporting in the 1980's.

          same liabilities and regulations as broadcast media

          The USA has free speech in the constitution, its availability is akin to the impact of printing 15thC and onto 16thC activism.

          People can communicate, governments (and also cartels can organise to propagate) can indoctrinate.

          Reply
      • Tiger Mountain 1.2.2
        29 November 2024 at 7:45 am

        I have no idea how an age restriction would be enforced apart from with the platform owners compliance. Strong ID, facial recognition etc.

        How a ban could be circumvented can be easily imagined though.

        There are age restrictions on a number of things already such as voting, sexual activity, firearm ownership, driving and so on, maybe it is possible. I thought there would be uproar when mobile phones were banned in NZ schools–but no, just like when photo driver licenses were introduced, millions of kiwis meekly lined up and got theirs done.

        Authoritarian countries restrict internet content use by controlling the pipe, but some get around that too. Ad is right above, Elon did not buy “Shitter” just for something to do. Algorithms are a vital weapon for the ruling class in the ideological offensive.

        Reply
        • Bearded Git 1.2.2.1
          29 November 2024 at 9:03 am

          Appareny millions in tbe US and UK are switching from X to Bluesky since the election…..Bluesky is somewhat more ethical, obviously that wouldn't be hard.

          Reply
      • weka 1.2.3
        29 November 2024 at 8:50 am

        As someone that works in tech, I have no idea how the Australian government thinks they can effectively enforce the social media ban.

        The internet is highly decentralised and deregulated by design.

        Sure. Someone should go look up what the Australian government is actually proposing, before we all start discussing it based on not knowing

        Reply
      • Sanctuary 1.2.4
        29 November 2024 at 9:39 am

        It is pretty simple actually – you heavily fine and/or ban any social media site that doesn't comply with a demonstrable and credible age verification process. That will mean you might need a VPN to access, say, tik-tok. Simply going to the trouble of installing a VPN and configuring it to access an illegal site would be effective in heavily reducing or halting access in the case of the vast majority of young people.

        I'd go further and ban smart phones for under 16s, and I'd heavily beef up funding and legislatively make relevant the role of chief censor again by giving that office the resources and powers to blacklist websites whose content contravenes decency laws and/or fail to provide robust age verification. Meaning? If pornhub wants to operate unimpeded in NZ, it will need proper age verification for access or it will be fined/banned. If it has content that contravenes our decency laws, it will nedd to take it down or be fined/banned.

        It would also be a very popular move, for all the huffing and puffing from vested media interests. The fact that National banned mobile phones in schools with barely a murmur of opposition and much nodding in silent agreement tells us that. Surveys tell us the top concern for 73% of New Zealanders is children accessing inappropriate content online, while over two thirds of us are worried about cyber-bullying.

        An ideal left wing populist policy, meaning there is zero chance Labour will adopt it.

        Reply
        • Belladonna 1.2.4.1
          30 November 2024 at 10:39 am

          imply going to the trouble of installing a VPN and configuring it to access an illegal site would be effective in heavily reducing or halting access in the case of the vast majority of young people.

          This says to me that you don't know many young people. They are perfectly well aware about installing VPN – and regularly do so to gain access to what they want to access.

          Reply
      • lprent 1.2.5
        30 November 2024 at 11:22 pm

        It'd be difficult. But it could be done.

        Especially with the bulk of users incapable of easily using the kinds of tools that you or I would take for granted. Proxy jumping ssh, vpn, proxy servers, rerouting via aws or azure, and about 50 other techniques are all pretty easy – but most people just have no idea how to use of access those kinds of tools. It wouldn't take that long to whip something up in code with the open source libraries.

        However it really isn't that hard to block the majority of users for any one channel. X for instance. Just track who is getting on to what directly, and if the X was allowing too many of those it should exclude accessing it, then just fine the company – and make it clear that the whole channel could be blocked on the international links.

        Have a look at what happened in Brazil to X after it failed to comply with a court ordered judgement. The self-declared "free-speech absolutist" complied after months saying that X would not.

        This isn't the the 90s when I was listening to coups in Moscow coming out by unexpected lumps of wire and effectively broadcast. Services like X need to know who is reading so that they can make money – they don't want to broadcast without collecting personal info to sell.

        Plus the high speed network we have these days are far more concentrated and controlled at the telcos. Even in NZ we have security compliance at the telco switches for fibre or major satellites after the security acts of the last 20 years. The telcos here would listen to the courts and they have the means to block. I think every country has some level of control accessible to courts.

        Something like low orbit satellites would be harder to block but those are still rather expensive, and likely to remain so for some time. Besides they are geolocked, and I suspect would be disputable by doing nasty things with GPS or frequency blocking.

        Sure there would be leakage – but not enough to make up for lost traffic for the providers.

        Reply
        • Res Publica 1.2.5.1
          2 December 2024 at 9:25 am

          I'm also concerned from a data security standpoint. Because, in general, the only official ID a 16 year old would have access to would be a passport, driver's license (if they have one), or birth certificate.

          Unless the law mandates that these providers use something likeRealMe, I don't know if we can trust the likes of X or TikTok to safely store and use these documents.

          Reply
    • weka 1.3
      29 November 2024 at 8:49 am

      is it an actual ban? Or are they legislating to make the social media giants socially responsible?

      Reply
  2. Jenny 2
    29 November 2024 at 7:19 am

    Who here, or anywhere, has the courage to stand up to the mealy mouthed deniers and state the truth?

    A genocide is being committed in Gaza.

    Who here dares deny it?

    Who here denies that our government and ourselves are complicit?

    'There are no words that can describe the depravity of this aggression'



    [As expected, you continue where you left off (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-10-2024/#comment-2013931), so this Mod continues as well; take 2 weeks off (double the last ban) – Incognito]

    Reply
    • Incognito 2.1
      29 November 2024 at 8:56 am

      Mod note

      Reply
      • adam 2.1.1
        29 November 2024 at 2:29 pm

        I'm going to pick this bone incognito.

        If politics is personal (Classical Feminist ideological point), and war is but the continuation of politics by different means (von Clausewitz) then how can any anti war message be anything but personal and personalised?

        How to debate with people who support killing and death – without pointing out they are supporting killing and death? And that their continued support of killing and death leads to more killing and death. Or do we give them a free pass on their support of killing and death, because polite debate is more important?

        Personally I stopped debating from anti-war persective on this site – because It is the fastest way to get a ban – emotional reactions to large swaths of people being killed is strong – and yet if you display any of those emotions – goodbye.

        So it's better to keep your mouth shut and not have a debate? Because I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels a strong emotional reaction to a kid having been blown apart by and IDF bullet, missile, bomb, drone – take your pick on method of killing. But I've sure has hell learnt, never debate it, because emotions are not welcome.

        Reply
        • lprent 2.1.1.1
          30 November 2024 at 11:58 pm

          It isn't expressing anti-war or presenting an argument about the war in Gaza. It is how you do it. Being a religious idiot pushing their faith in absolutist terms isn't an argument. It doesn't start a debate because it doesn't present any argument.

          Who here dares deny it?

          Who here denies that our government and ourselves are complicit?

          Jenny keeps demanding that everyone else must just agree with their view.

          Jenny on almost any topic sounds exactly like a good ignorant Christian mouthing the words by who has never read the bible, or ignored the old testament, or never examined alternate faiths. There is no argument expressed. There is a just simpleminded laziness by an absolutist fool who has a chronic inability to argue and is too stupid to learn how to engage with other people without being a obnoxious fool.

          BTW: I'd point out that I got expelled from Baptist sunday school at age 8 because I had a habit of pointing out sections in the bible that made the sunday school teachers uncomfortable. I'd read the book, and liked pointing out counter examples of 'gods will' – usually with contrasting examples in the old testaments. Which is why I'm a agnostic… I like arguing and debating. Faith I find a little frustrating when people only rely upon it.

          I completely disagree with the Israeli's war in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, and Syria. I think it is a deliberate genocide in Gaza, a campaign of ethnic cleansing in the West bank, and a stupid folly that will probably eventually result in Israel being dissipated. I have expressed my arguments and debated with others about it.

          But I think that Jenny acts like a caricature of an boring activist. They wave a video or link. Shouts a couple of slogans giving no obvious indication of understanding what they mean. Say that is the absolute truth and then get aggressive when others say that faith and assertions are meaningless posturing.

          Jenny reminds me of that obnoxious character in the Young Ones played so well by the late Rik Mayall

          Rick has a large ego and frequently tries to impress the others with his non-existent wit, talent and humour. Rick's self-obsession and naïve belief that everyone likes him is shown in 'Bambi', where he says in front of the other three, 'Hands up who likes me?'. In complete disbelief when they all state clearly that they do not like him, Rick proceeds to bet them money that they do. He loses. Furious, Rick then attempts suicide by overdosing on laxatives. He verbally insults and often physically assaults Neil at every opportunity. He fights and bickers with Vyvyan and attempts to impress Mike. Rick is portrayed as unlikeable and so self-absorbed that he believes he is the "most popular member of the flat" even though his housemates hate him. Vyvyan describes Rick's name as being spelled "with a silent P"

          I don't even read Jenny's comments (or emails) any more because they never say anything worth my time to deal with.

          Reply
        • weka 2.1.1.2
          1 December 2024 at 1:22 am

          Jenny's post was propaganda better suited to FB. She spams the site with such posts, it's tedious and it's not bringing an anti-war debate to the table.

          I had a look at your past moderations. It's all things like flaming and taking pot shots at authors/mods. A longer ban for a coupe of defamatory comments and then arguing with the mods about it. I didn't see anything about war but I only looked at the last few years and 2020.

          Reply
    • Mike the Lefty 2.2
      29 November 2024 at 12:54 pm

      NZ allows the Israeli embassy to stay, and yet it represents a government headed by a man declared a war criminal by a convention that NZ upholds.

      Why?

      Reply
  3. koina 3
    29 November 2024 at 8:05 am

    Ban social media for young people?

    Too right.

    We need to protect young people from the adults spewing prejudice

    and ignorance on line all day every day.

    Shutting down ZB radio should be first on the list.

    Ban all politicians talking because politicians tell so many lies.

    Only informed unbiased people should be able to access the net and vote.

    But then what are the other 99% going to do?

    Reply
  4. Dennis Frank 4
    29 November 2024 at 9:33 am

    Feds vs Texans: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/27/court-backs-texas-over-razor-wire-installed-on-us-mexico-border-00192018

    Texas has continued to install razor wire along its roughly 1,200-mile border with Mexico over the past year. In a 2-1 ruling, the court issued an injunction blocking Border Patrol agents from damaging the wire in Eagle Pass. “We continue adding more razor wire border barrier,” Republican Gov. Greg Abbott posted on the social platform X in response to the ruling.

    So the Feds ought to travel to the edge of town & do their damage just outside the Eagle Pass boundary on both sides. Would be helpful for Biden to issue an executive order for signs to be posted at both edges: "Immigrant Entry Here" – with a big arrow pointing to the gap. He could goad the Texans to greater heights of fury by holding a press conference wearing the classic Texan 10 gallon hat – https://roblox.fandom.com/wiki/Catalog:Ten_Gallon_Hat – plus cowboy boots & wave the sign at the crowd.

    Why is Biden so keen on immigrants? Well, ya gotta grasp the logic: it's the economy, stupid. Best way to suppress US workers is to import foreigners to undercut wages. Leftism, y'know? What the Dems are into. Essential to punish the labour force for not voting for Kamala. Cutting razor wire on the border is macho left-wing activism.

    Reply
    • Craig H 4.1
      29 November 2024 at 4:19 pm

      Hard to not have some level of immigration and border control – plenty of Americans with Mexican family members who live in Mexico, for example.

      Reply
  5. kejo 5
    29 November 2024 at 10:05 am

    Ian Taylor has a vicious expose of the leader of the act party in the opinion page of ODT this morning. Perhaps someone can put up a link for me. cheers Keith

    Reply
  6. gsays 6
    29 November 2024 at 10:38 am

    All this talk of bans, banning etc.

    Is there examples of prohibition working? Obviously I'm talking about things that are very popular.

    Alcohol, pornoy, drugs etc. So often the result is the opposite. An increase in harm from the perceived threat.

    Education, resilience and understanding are the long term solutions.

    Reply
    • weka 6.1
      29 November 2024 at 11:27 am

      What prohibition is there on pornography? To me it looks like we have very permissive laws around that.

      The drugs one is interesting, everyone goes oh, you can get drugs anywhere and everywhere. This is patently not true. So prohibition is working to an extent despite the poorly designed way that is done.

      If we didn't have limits on who could buy alcohol, there would be far more young people drinking.

      An increase in harm from the perceived threat.

      what does that mean?

      Reply
      • gsays 6.1.1
        29 November 2024 at 11:43 am

        The pornography reference means do you think only 18 plus people are accessing it?

        As for the harm from the perceived threat, youngsters wanting to experiment will do it in an unsafe environment, for fear of upsetting the parents/authority.

        Good friends have three kids, all in their 30s now. Coming through, their hone was a 'safe' (non judgemental, a bed, food, open ear) place for the kids and their friends to work a lot of stuff out. Drinking, drugs, sexuality.

        When that communication line back to parents or authority is impeded, for what ever reason, trust gets eroded.

        Reply
        • weka 6.1.1.1
          29 November 2024 at 12:10 pm

          The pornography reference means do you think only 18 plus people are accessing it?

          Of course not, but pornography and rape culture is ubiquitous beyond R18. I can't actually find the NZ legislation on this, and I suspect it is very liberal. In other word we have very little prohibition on porn here.

          As for the harm from the perceived threat, youngsters wanting to experiment will do it in an unsafe environment, for fear of upsetting the parents/authority.

          The things you listed aren't perceived threats, they're actual threats. But sure, harm minimisation is a thing and my preference for some drugs for instance. Alcohol sale age limits don't make the situation worse because teens find other ways to access the banned substance. They make the situation better because giving 13 year olds unfettered access to alcohol would be a disaster.

          Good friends have three kids, all in their 30s now. Coming through, their hone was a 'safe' (non judgemental, a bed, food, open ear) place for the kids and their friends to work a lot of stuff out. Drinking, drugs, sexuality.

          Fortunate kids. We don't write laws for them though, we write them to protect the most vulnerable.

          Reply
    • adam 6.2
      29 November 2024 at 2:33 pm

      Because in the case of the social media ban, it's not a total ban. Like our ban on booze, you can drink it after 18, but up till then it's banned. I'd like the same for all drugs – So increase the age to 21 for booze and include drugs in that.

      Reply
  7. Dennis Frank 7
    29 November 2024 at 10:38 am

    Anyone here using this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluesky

    Bluesky Social became a benefit corporation in February 2022, with the mission to "develop and drive large-scale adoption of technologies for open and decentralized public conversation". The company's first three employees were hired in March 2022. Bluesky garnered media attention soon after its launch due to its close association with Twitter and Jack Dorsey.

    The social service attracted minority communities and subcultures, including black, artist, left-wing, transgender, sex worker, and furry communities, who benefited from the invite system. These early communities are often credited for the platform's historically left-leaning culture and its implementation of robust community management and moderation features.

    Dr Neal Curtis: "In February 2024 it finally opened to the public. I joined in March and became user 5,226,111. We were all notified of these numbers in September when the platform reached 10 million users. It’s now November and it has well over 20 million." https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/11/27/nothin-but-blue-skies-from-now-on/

    That's quite a growth curve!! Seems like folks are seeing it as a shelter for those seeking refuge from corporate social media.

    I think Mastodon is the real future of social media. Like Bluesky, it runs on an open-source protocol called ‘ActivityPub’. Like Bluesky’s AT, it allows you to link to other social media platforms using the protocol, but unlike Bluesky it allows you to create your own server – an ‘instance’ – that is federated or linked to all the other instances allowing everyone to talk together. Bluesky likes to boast it is immune to billionaire takeover, but Mastodon genuinely is. However, at the moment, Bluesky is doing a much better job at being user-friendly, so most X-iles are turning up there.

    When I first arrived I found the Aotearoa community (#NZpol) that I had missed when I left Twitter, and while I have built up a good network on Mastodon I also found the comics community I’d left behind. As more people arrive, this community has only grown, and it feels great. The reason they are there is because of Bluesky’s moderation policy.

    Reply
    • joe90 7.1
      29 November 2024 at 12:44 pm

      Seems like folks are seeing it as a shelter for those seeking refuge from corporate social media.

      Folks are seeing it as a shelter for those seeking refuge from the largely unmoderated magats, bots, trolls, nazis, cookers, and elmo stans infesting Musk's hell site.

      Reply
      • Dennis Frank 7.2.1
        29 November 2024 at 4:26 pm

        Cool, did they also give you a user number like they gave the doctor? Have you been using it long enough to give it a user-friendly rating? The ease of using, I mean.

        Reply
  8. Reality 8
    29 November 2024 at 11:05 am

    Thank you Weka for posting that ODT article. Loved it. Very clever. Seymour does not like others having an opinion, for all his free speech talk.

    Reply
  9. Reality 9
    29 November 2024 at 11:25 am

    Kay – agree with you that David Seymour has zero self reflection. On the other hand he is over endowed with smugness and arrogance and weirdness.

    Reply
  10. Reality 10
    29 November 2024 at 11:34 am

    Kay – agree with you that David Seymour has zero self reflection. On the other hand he is over endowed with smugness and arrogance and weirdness.

    Reply
  11. Gosman 11
    29 November 2024 at 11:47 am

    Ani O'Brien blows the lid on the activities of the Atlas Network around the World.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1861656048874201235

    Reply
    • joe90 11.1
      29 November 2024 at 12:48 pm

      Betty Boop lives!

      Reply
    • Cinder 11.2
      29 November 2024 at 5:46 pm

      Amazing how the word "Freedom" leads idiots into the circus…

      Why don't Atlas ever mention the next two words which sums up their only concern:

      "of Markets"

      Not freedom for Labour to organise.

      Not freedom from oppression.

      Not freedom from monopolistic corporations.

      And as for little miss "advocate of free markets"

      Her current gig is with a shitty media company which wouldn't survive in the free market without the backing of… (checks notes)

      Tax dodging religious fundamentalists whose income mostly comes from the State.

      And was founded by someone so thick, they thought the PM referring to journalists by their first names meant they were in cahoots!

      You love free markets Gosman, I suggest you celebrate Ani's riposte with a drink that truly encompasses the spirit and ethos of the Libertarian free market utopia, a whiskey shot from a backpackers in Laos.

      Reply
  12. gsays 12
    29 November 2024 at 12:49 pm

    I heard an interesting example of voting buyers remorse yesty.

    Caught up with my 22yr old son, who isn't a political animal. He is a keen hunter who more often than not turns up with a swag if venison.

    He confessed to having voted Act, because the idea of having the list of firearms and a name and address with it was abhorrent to him. He also expressed a lack of trust in the police as the body with oversight. Witness the Palmy cops having weapons stolen from under their bise through basic insecurity.

    The remorse cane when he said " But I didn't think they would fuck over the Treaty".

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/eleven-guns-taken-from-police-station-after-door-left-open/7BYRIG2L7FGOCV4KL23WUBWARA/

    Reply
    • tc 12.1
      29 November 2024 at 2:46 pm

      ACT were up front about dicking with the treaty but got his vote anyway.

      ACT's been consistently anti maori since formation so sorry to hear that gsays. A learning opportunity for him and countless others probably.

      Reply
      • gsays 12.1.1
        29 November 2024 at 3:38 pm

        Yes about a learning opportunity.

        He doesn't consume media esp political media as I and I assume you do. I'm picking he was more swayed by his rural buddy who lives where he goes hunting- Owhanga near Taumarunui.

        I figure my boy knows as much about Act’s history as you do of J Cole’s musical output.

        My father kept his political views close to his chest. I found out after he had passed away, he had voted for Winston because Winston said he would keep National out, then went into coalition with them. Apparently he felt a right mug

        Reply
  13. Jimmy 13
    29 November 2024 at 3:31 pm

    Oh dear. The report says the sinking of the Manawanui was due to human error.

    "Chief of Navy Rear Admiral Garin Golding said the direct cause of the grounding was because of a series of human errors, resulting in the ship’s autopilot “not being disengaged when it should have been”.

    Reply
    • gsays 13.1
      29 November 2024 at 3:41 pm

      Got a linky Jimmy?

      Reply
        • Muttonbird 13.1.1.1
          29 November 2024 at 4:06 pm

          Why didn't you do that in the first place? You make it sound as if you are doing gsays a favour but it's your responsibility.

          Reply
          • Jimmy 13.1.1.1.1
            29 November 2024 at 4:25 pm

            Doing them a favour? "All I said was "Here you go"????

            You do have a strange outlook on life.

            Reply
            • Muttonbird 13.1.1.1.1.1
              29 November 2024 at 8:54 pm

              "Here you go" is an informal and slightly dismissive remark. "Here you go" is used when you are doing someone a favour, maybe redelivering some assets which they had misplaced or delivering to persons not originally intended.

              So, in both these examples it, the person saying, "Here you go" is signalling they are doing something extra, for you. When you say, "Here you go" it means you are helping them out at little expense to yourself.

              But that is not how things work here. It is incumbent on a commenter to post links to a claim and it's a banable offence to not do so. Providing a link after another commenter has asked for it is not helping out, it's just fulfilling the duties which you had previously ignored.

              Look, Jimmy, everyone knows you are a RWNJ troll, but don't add laziness to that.

              Reply
        • gsays 13.1.1.2
          29 November 2024 at 4:11 pm

          Chur.

          Reply
    • SPC 13.2
      29 November 2024 at 4:21 pm

      So that would leave the issue of whether the ship left port without an operational back up generator as irrelevant to what happened (the fire etc occurred afterward multiple groundings).

      Reply
  14. Obtrectator 14
    29 November 2024 at 4:57 pm

    Now it's hit the international news, will there finally be some real action? Clean ‘n’ green is going to take quite a knock from this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/29/lower-hutt-city-new-zealand-odour-seaview-wastewater-treatment-plant

    (Nearly said it …. you know, that sentence starting "don't" …. )

    Reply

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