Open Mike 29/06/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 29th, 2017 - 105 comments
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105 comments on “Open Mike 29/06/2017”

  1. Ed 1

    Six charged over Hillsborough disaster.
    Wonder how long the families of Pike River will wait.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11883345

  2. Ed 2

    The brighter future….

    ‘Landlords are failing to meet their legal obligation to to disclose how much insulation is in their rental properties when they sign up new tenants, the Building and Construction Minister says.’

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/334058/landlords-told-to-come-clean-on-rental-insulation

    • wow – so you’re putting up a comment that is positive for Nick Smith – righto

      $4000 fine will hardly dent landlords pockets – what should happen ed?

      for me I’d add maybe a zero to the fines for their first offence and maybe keep adding zeros until they comply of get out of the landlording business.

      • McFlock 2.1.1

        I read somewhere that one of the Scandinavian countries does fines as a % of taxable income. E.g a speeding ticket is three days’ income.

        Can do similar to landlords: have a range of fine scales for various violations, from one week to 52 weeks’ rent, with the option of tenants having the right to zero-notice end to the lease if the infraction is for something with a max fine of over, say, 1 month’s rent.

        something to roll around the noggin for a while.

        • gsays 2.1.1.1

          Sounds on to it.
          Double it for two rentals, treble for three…
          Can’t see our property owning parliamentarians of either hue doing anything about it though.

    • ropata 2.2

      Widespread failure to disclose P contamination as well. Must preserve rental income and property values. Doesn’t matter if tenants die
      Landlords omitting P history to protect property values

      • Tamati Tautuhi 2.2.1

        I doubt many landlords would disclose P usage in the rental properties to the Council as it will appear on their LIM Reports about 5 years ago in real estate circles it was suggested 35% of rental properties in West Auckland showed evidence of P contamination.

        P is a bigger problem than what most people actually realise and it is destroying families and communities. Evidently there is a new drug available in India called Crocodile which is 10 x more addictive than P and it makes the skin go green and wrinkly, I guess serious P users & dealers can’t wait to get there hands on it ?

        • Sabine 2.2.1.1

          any rental in NZ will show signs of P. Literally. Even high end properties would if tested show signs of P, Coke, la Marie Jeanne, and any other drugs.
          Before i moved to West AKL i lived central and i can guarantee you that those well to do, soon to be doctors or lawyers use the same drugs to stay awake then the bogan in West AKL.
          Go test all housing for P and be amused.

          Crocodile has been making the rounds of Russia for years now, you can youtube that shit.

          • Cinny 2.2.1.1.1

            I believe that most P testing on housing is/was a sham that has helped the outgoing government remove housing nz tenants making way for state housing sales.

            It has also helped carpet firms etc with sales and testing companies with an income.

            With changed standards will they retest all the houses people were kicked out of?

            $30 million spent by Housing NZ testing houses without researching appropriate guidelines first. Feels like an exploit to me, making out it’s all good now because they’ve changed guidelines.

            Hundreds of people kicked out of housing nz properties, many given a black mark against their name as a result.

            The precursors for this insipid drug come from Asia, too many high brows making money for the issue to be resolved with the current mob in power. Must be frustrating for many police atm, no wonder their moral is so low. Change the government

            • Tamati Tautuhi 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Asian house farmers getting Government Subsidies renting houses to New Zealanders, free market zombie economics or neoliberalism ?

              • ropata

                New Zealand sheeple are being farmed for rent & tax free capital gains. NatCorp ™ have been pimping our people and taonga around the world and found lots of buyers.

      • bwaghorn 2.2.2

        i bet you would have to close every motel and hotel in nz if you tested them,

  3. dv 3

    This left a sour taste.
    Finished won and dumped!!!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11883219

    Forty of the boat builders behind the remarkable vessel which Emirates Team New Zealand sailed to America’s Cup glory were recently made redundant.

    One former employee said he was “disgusted” that the company that built the boat, Southern Spars, had let him go after years of highly-specialised work.

    AND found this too

    BUT oracle boat builders got 17.25m from NZ!!!!!

    America’s Cup team Oracle’s New Zealand-based boat builders get government grant

    The company that builds the America’s Cup boats for Team New Zealand’s arch rivals Oracle has been awarded a $17.25 million grant by the New Zealand government.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/67998523/americas-cup-team-oracles-new-zealandbased-boat-builders-get-government-grant

    • John up North 3.1

      So here we are again giving an American company $$ to exploit NZ ingenuity.

      Pretty much sums up the whole short sighted approach by this Nats govt. MBIE seems to use the Callaghan Innovation Growth Grant as a pot of cash to disseminate to their friends and enablers without any real method of maintaining the innovation in NZ to benefit NZers in the long term.

      The fund needs to lock in a return for the investment, surprise, surprise – just like banks or other investors handing over cash would demand. Currently it seems a good idea is bankrolled and ASAP the owners sell off shore – where’s the gain for NZ?? Or Fronterra once again get a check from this govt for R and D ( biggest company in the country and sucking on the tax payers still).

      • greywarshark 3.1.1

        Ooh ooh (hopping around on one foot) shot myself in the foot again. Damn! We are just simple Kiwis who foul our own nest and self-mutilate so often it is no wonder that NZ is like a dead man walking.

        The zombie nation, don’t let us get near you other citizens of the world or we will give your economies the kiss of death. Too late, Roger Douglas has already been on the talking head circuit telling gummints round the world how to ease the pearls out of the peoples’ oyster without immediately killing them.

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 3.2

      from the 2015 article in dv’s link

      The company that builds the America’s Cup boats for Team New Zealand’s arch rivals Oracle has been awarded a $17.25 million grant by the New Zealand government.
      It comes in the form of a three-year research and development grant from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment to Warkworth boat building company Core Builders Composites.
      The company, which is reportedly owned by Oracle Racing, is headed up by Kiwis Mark Turner and Tim Smyth and has been based in New Zealand since 2010.
      The business specialises in sailing technology and built the AC72 catamarans which Oracle used in 2013 when they defended their America’s Cup title, beating Team New Zealand in San Francisco.
      The news comes in the same week that Prime Minister John Key reiterated the government would be unlikely to help fund Team New Zealand’s next America’s Cup campaign after a challenger series mooted for Auckland was scrapped.
      Although a wholly owned subsidiary of Oracle Racing, Core Builders Composites is a New Zealand company providing services to the American team and receives the grant as it has committed to furthering research and development in New Zealand. 
      Core Builders Composites was one of three companies to receive the Callaghan Innovation Growth Grant and must now commit $300,000 and spend at least 1.5 percent of its revenue on research and development as well as well as maintain or increase their spending in that area of the business over a three-year period.

  4. Tricledrown 4

    Any truth in a story doing the rounds on Facebook about Paula Bennett claiming the DPB while in a relationship renting out her house while receiving a sudsidy from hnz to pay for a mortgage.
    While living in a relationship in another house doing drugs a Drunken behaviour abusing children.

    • roadrage 4.1

      Any truth to Seymour having a clue about economics? He believes that food retail is competitive having only two companies in the marketplace. He’s a authoritarian, he apes all the rhetoric around libertarianism, free marketneo-lib but supports charter schools! He wants govt to tell poorer citizens what to teach yet supports the outsourcing of govt to a few boardrooms coz govt can’t be trusted.

    • millsy 4.2

      IF (and that is a big IF) these allegations are PROVED to be true, then it would be a hell of a scalp. But as I said before, there has to be 100% proof here.

  5. greywarshark 5

    Can someone give this its own post r0b? It’s the main feature for today and the rest of the hunting season till the elections.

    (I’m talking about the post Americas Cup debacle with people being sacked, and rorts and subsidies, grants to the sailing and business mates in other countries especially USA, our friends.)

    • r0b 5.1

      I’ll note your suggestion to others, though it’s not a topic I feel strongly enough about to follow up myself.

  6. Subject: Re: The Clear Water Action Plan
    From Robert Atac
    To Gareth Morgan
    Date Today 09:14

    Hi Gareth
    I think you know a lot more than you let on,but maybe not?
    It is very confusing, your public statements have mentioned our inaction on climate change clash with say your past promotion of Kiwisaver for one thing, and your political goals?
    @405ppm CO2 and nearly 2 ppm CH4 humans are very much in the same position the dynasors were in when they saw the Syberian traps forming astroid flying through the atmosphere, except the they had a few thousand more years to get use to the fact that they were going extinct, as it took something like 10,000 years of constant volcanic action to do what humans have done in about 200 years.
    Your constant promotion of growth is just compounding the situation, not that it matters for everything that is alive now as ‘we’ can not make the situation any worse.
    Then there is the 440 neculer power plants, that will need upto 50 years of power inputs to prevent all of then going ‘Fuckashima’ dumping ton and tons of radiation into the atmosphere – causing the atmosphere to total burnoff.
    You have got to spend a few hours listening to or reading professor Guy McPherson’s statements and summery of the true situation humans and the rest of life is in
    I’m a 4th for dropout, so what would I know? But I have been following all this stuff for the past 18 years with an average of at least 2 hours a day reading about our future, and humans reaction to the truth, I can see you now looking like the 3 monkeys hear,see,say nothing. I know you will prove me right by you not telling the truth to the pig ignorant masses.
    This system is a heat engine, even if all 7.3 billion of us went back to running around naked and living in caves it wouldn’t change the position we are locked into.
    About the only thing the global ‘leaders’ could do to reduce future suffering (apart from mass sterlisation, or maybe including) is to stock pile sucide pills, I’m sure that would go down like a cup of cold sick.
    I know these are just ‘movies’ but maybe it will help you get your head around what Guy and all the pear reviewed info he supplies is showing
    The Road, 22After.Com, and for a resonably good depiction of why you are looking like a primate – Blind Spot
    You are saying a lot of good things,but alas I think you are 200 years to late if not several thousand years, as this shirt storm has been on the cards since the first day we planted our first carrot 😉
    On election day I will be tossing myself off, as George Carlin says, then at least I will have something to show for my efforts.
    If any humans are alive in the next 10 – 20 years they will be radioactive canables.
    Good luck with all you time wasting.
    Regards Robert Atack
    0274 301 574
    http://Www.oilcrash.com

    • greywarshark 6.1

      Robert Atack
      Sincerely meant, and wisely said. There is no way to say anything in a calm or cool and decisive manner that will penetrate the frothy coffee miasma that rolls around in the heads of people who have houses and are earning enough money to have cars, travel, holidays and go to concerts. That is what is important to think about these days. So keep on shouting, someone might look up from their handheld life organisers and hear you.

      And the fact that we can’t get a well-thought-out euthanasia, right to die when you want to, agreement passed into law is the biggest bell of those on the Joker’s cap that is this NZ government’s answer to the magic, all-knowing hat of JKRowling;s imagination. If only we could have a wise Sorting Hat as in Harry Potter.
      (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA3dbvRCui0

      And what a great sort of People’s Parliament if it went like this and despite all the extras that magic adds, there is more decorum and better procedures and results than we have now:

      Some real magic is needed from our imaginative brains to produce a better reality that matches the fictions that we can conjure up for art.

    • Red 6.2

      Happy Thursday to you to robert, bright and cherry this morning as usual Please less on tossing off as this raises disturbing imagery but again this is your contribution to population control and not diluting the world collective iq with your progeny so a gold star for you in this regard

    • Not sure why you mentioned that you were a fourth form dropout – that and the spelling mistakes probably means he won’t take you seriously.

      • Red 6.3.1

        Yes Marty Dear

      • Robert Atack 6.3.2

        Yeah sorry about the spelling mistakes- bottom of the form is English way back then, and currently one finger typing on a Samsung note thingie
        But it does show you don’t have to be a brain surgeon to see the naked king.

        • marty mars 6.3.2.1

          My spelling is shit mate. I was trying to help because I know you believe. Morgan won’t be able to get it and as you know the politicans are pretty well mostly like the band on the titanic. I don’t agree with a lot of your conclusions but I do admire your tenacity. Kia kaha.

  7. millsy 7

    While the country is carrying on about Barclay, news emerges about the Tongaririo National park, the jewel in the country’s national park crown, being included in a treaty settlement. Which will see the new iwi owners/guardians set an entry fee.

    An entry fee. No doubt the likes of marty mars will come in and carry on about iwi land rights and confiscation and so on, but we need to realise that Tongariro was GIFTED to the Crown so ALL NEW ZEALANDERS could use it.

    This is wrong.

    Very wrong.

    It would be shameful for this to be waved through by Labour, New Zealand First and the Greens.

    • Stunned Mullet 7.1

      FFS Millsy, this is Maori land, if it’s part of a treaty settlement all well and good and if the Iwi who oversee it charge a fee for people to enjoy the land that is also their absolute right to do so.

    • You should pay and at the gate at the start of your street too.

      Get onto brash he might make it part of their push.

    • mauī 7.3

      Yeah.. I’m sure it was gifted so thousands of tourists could come and walk over what the iwi find sacred each and every day. At least they get some appropriate say in the management of it now.

    • weka 7.4

      “Which will see the new iwi owners/guardians set an entry fee.”

      You do realise that DOC routinely charges fees for access to tracks on conservation estate?

      In this case the hapū want to reduce tourism numbers. Looks like the state has been remiss in its management up until now.

      If you want to have a go at someone, have a go at successive govt and NZers that insist on treating nature as a commodity and have pushed tourism numbers without regard for the impacts. Tourism is an extractive industry, this is just one of the consequences. Push back against that, because IME Māori are generally more than happy to share fairly where they are able to.

      https://www.maoritelevision.com/news/latest-news/native-affairs–warning-tongariro-tourists

  8. Halfcrown 8

    I understand that the track Tongariro Crossing is a pigs sty at the moment with rubbish and human filth everywhere caused by the overwhelming numbers of tourists. The track cannot cope with the number of visitors, like sometimes up to 3000 a day when the track can only take about 600 The local iwi is doing it’s best to clean the track up removing rubbish and filth as much as possible.
    Good on them for charging, I also think it is about time more areas have to have a charge to see them to cope with the excessive numbers of tourists we have now.
    Try and visit some of the small villages in the UK and you will be charged a fee to get in by the National Trust
    It is about time something like a National Trust was set up in this country before the excessive number of tourists ruin this once great place.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/02/tongariro-crossing-struggling-to-cope-with-hordes-of-tourists.html

    • weka 8.1

      Yep, and it’s a real shame it is coming to this because NZers shouldn’t be being pushed out of their own landscapes in order for someone to make tourism dollars. See my comment above, I’m not blaming Māori, I’m blaming people who think industrial tourism is a good thing.

  9. Poission 10

    Following the global pandemic of liberalism in the 80’s ,peaking in the early 1990’s we can see the aftermath.

    Wellington the rustbelt years.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/travelling–light/sets/72157624758199920/with/4911888512/

  10. esoteric pineapples 11

    Even under the most hopeful of predictions on sea level rise, lowlying homes in Dunedin are gone. If I was an owner of one of these homes, I’d be thinking of selling up soon, as its only a matter of time before their value will drop to almost nothing. No-one is going to take a 30 year mortgage on a property that will barely survive past its term. And it won’t be long before insurances will go up or be unavailable for such properties. Same goes for other vulnerable properties around New Zealand.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/world/scientists-in-antarctica-painting-bleak-picture-low-lying-nz-coastal-communities

    • Andre 11.1

      At first glance, south Dunedin may be suitable for a Netherlands-style solution. Roughly a quarter of their land is below sea level.

      • Sabine 11.1.1

        too late,
        the netherlands have infrastructure in place several hundreds years old and they have always been forward thinking and forward building.

        We however are still discussing if forcing landlords to upgrade their leaky moldy – not fit for dogs as per the SPCA – dwellings with 1! heating source and maybe some insulation. Cause that would hurt the landlord financially and rents would go up and and and and and

        https://www.jlgrealestate.com/2014/02/18/floating-houses/

        we are nowhere near the dutch model, not because we could not, but because we don’t want to. And i include all parties in that comment. The left can’t get its shit together if its life depends on it, and the right does not give a flying fuck so as long as they have theirs and will be right.

        In saying that, i am waiting for the day were some solemn looking dudes in suits tell us that we must bail out the ‘homewoners’ that bought coastal McMansions cause they are underwater now and blahblablabaslblablabalblabal

        • Tamati Tautuhi 11.1.1.1

          Even after the leaky building crisis we are still building leaky homes-absolute muppets in Government and Local Councils ?

          • Sabine 11.1.1.1.1

            because the will is not there.
            someone else is gonna pay to fix the shit in a few years, and it ain’t gonna be them.
            this is why we can’t have nice things. We want cheap shit that looks fancy.

        • Gabby 11.1.1.2

          Not much point in upgrading houses that are going to drown.

      • McFlock 11.1.2

        Not sure about that – the Netherlands might have substantially different geology.

        Sth Dn is basically on sandy marshland – dig down a foot in some places and you hit groundwater, non-salty simply because it’s runoff that percolates through pushing the saltwater aside. Or as one study put it: “Recent drilling investigations have characterised a sandy aquifer in hydraulic communication with the sea, including tidal fluctuations of the water table in proximity to the ocean.”

        Dykes won’t work alone, and even constant pumping might be pissing into the wind depending on the extent of the “hydraulic communication”.

        Not saying it couldn’t be done, it just might be cheaper and easier to relocate folks or give them canoes.

        • Sabine 11.1.2.1

          How many times can we ‘afford’ to relocate folks? Giving them canoes would not be an option as one would only make money once and that is not a good business model.

          • McFlock 11.1.2.1.1

            If you plan it properly, they only need to be relocated once.

            Basically, what Dunedin does to resolve the south dunedin issue has as much to do with climate-change-associated global migration, or even NZ migration, as local weather has to do with climate.

        • marty mars 11.1.2.2

          Yep the area is going under eventually.

          Mums old whare at ocean grove might be okay but will be pretty hard to get to I’d say.

        • Andre 11.1.2.3

          “…it just might be cheaper and easier to relocate folks or give them canoes.”

          Cheapest and easiest to just let the residents fend for themselves. Since it’s apparently not a high-income area and the locals are skilled in dealing with adversity through long experience, that’s probably what will happen. Unlike the snowflakes at places like Omaha, who will probably get all the protection the state can throw at them, poor dears.

          • McFlock 11.1.2.3.1

            council seems to be beginning to pull finger on the issue re:district plan.

          • weka 11.1.2.3.2

            “Cheapest and easiest to just let the residents fend for themselves. Since it’s apparently not a high-income area and the locals are skilled in dealing with adversity through long experience,”

            I’m curious what you mean there. You mean they will find themselves some other land and build new houses themselves? Thought not. You mean they will engineer some solution on site to prevent the water from rising underneath them each time there is a big rain? Do you realise that South Dunedin has a lot of elderly and people with disabilities?

            • Andre 11.1.2.3.2.1

              That was a cynical extrapolation of current government trends of withdrawing assistance from those that genuinely need it in favour of coddling the wealthy.

    • Sabine 11.2

      hang on,
      surely Nationals Bennett would be happy to spend tax money to get homeless people rehomed and pay mega accomodation supplements to the owners of the buildings to compensate them for not being able to sell their underwater houses.

    • weka 11.3

      tbh, while I think that something needs to be done about that situation fairly, I also think it’s one of our lesser worries. We have plenty of space and can rehouse people. And we can sort out some assistance for that. But worrying about the mortgage in the face of CC that will cause massive upheavals globally and locally is like worrying if one has a cushion on the life boat off the titanic. Sorry, that’s a bit harsh, but it’s not like this is new in any way at all. We’ve been talking about sea level rise for a long time. Did people think it wouldn’t happen within the lifetime of their mortgage and they could pass the problem on to someone else?

      More of a concern is how fast CC will hit things like our ability to grow food, and what will happen when we get a confluence of GFC, CC and Peak Oil.

      • Sabine 11.3.1

        @ Weka
        More of a concern is how fast CC will hit things like our ability to grow food, and what will happen when we get a confluence of GFC, CC and Peak Oil.

        many of us will die of preventable diseases and things tooth infections or a breech position cause a. we can’t afford the medical care, b. we are to far away from any medical care. This to me is what is the most frightening aspect. That due to lack of money, and access to medical services small things can go out of hand very quickly and will go very deadly. humans don’t need much to die – we are fragile that way.

        i don’t think that trade etc will disappear, but it will be rationed and if many of us would be honest with themselves there literally is no reasons why rations would be wasted on us. Be that food, fuel, or transportation.

        our communities will be more dangerous with the lack of lights. Dark streets make for good muggins.

        sexual violence and domestic violence will be ‘domestic issues’ and no one will do much about it. cause thats just how it is and several different religious text will support such a system.

        religion will replace law and secular government in regions where the government has opted out (this is what we are seeing in certain of the red states)

        and so on and so on

        but until such time, be sure for the same people who want to do nothing because we are making money to make a killing on all our demise.

        I am forever grateful for not having had children. We are leaving them with nothing but misery.

        • marty mars 11.3.1.1

          Agree with a lot of that. Your last line not so much.

        • Sorrwerdna 11.3.1.2

          forever the optimist -not.

        • weka 11.3.1.3

          Are you talking about NZ or globally? I’m not so worried about the health stuff in NZ. Yes there will be people affected by medical and surgical shortages, some quite badly, but we know from Cuba that reduction in the economy/standard of living improved general health across the board because people were forced to eat differently and move more.

          We have botanical medicines to deal with infection, combined with modern hygiene to prevent the worst of things that are seen in the past. A bigger concern for me is if we get slacker on biosecurity and end up with things like Lyme Disease here. I expect warmer climate will bring more tropical illness up north too. But its not like we are doing to lose our modern knowledge about how to manage those things at the basic level.

          Not trying to minimise what individuals will face, but putting that alongside the shit that individuals already face. I’m in two minds about whether places will get less safe. I think that largely depends on what we do in the next decade or so in terms of restoring community. This is why I don’t give a shit about Labour not being what lefties want enough, the most important thing is to change the government so that the rest of society can get on with doing the right thing.

          • Sabine 11.3.1.3.1

            NZ and globally.

            And i am not talking about medical and surgical shortages, i am talking about living isolated or of the main drag with no pharmacy and no resident doctor where a child in a breech position – if you can’t get someone qualified most likely will kill the mother or the child. Or if you scratch yourself with a nail you die of blood poisoning.
            It is the very little things that we overlook and simplify, yet they are the silent issues. And if you can’t afford the cost, or there is no one there to assist, well you are shit outta luck. Up until very long ago dying in childbirth was a normal risk associated with childbirth. If you look at Texas which has done a good job of closing clinics in rural areas (especially women clinics) you will see that mortality rates are up for mothers and children as the women simply home birth maybe with a mid wife, or a doula or maybe just with a woman whom herself has birthed alone at home.

            The shit we are putting up with now is simply because we still have not quite grasped just how easy we are to kill as humans. No shelter in a cold area? freeze. No food? starve. No water? dehydrate. To hot? heat stroke, these are things that already kill our homeless and poor, elderlies and very young every year. And we are happy to put up with it so long as it is others – and it makes for riveting TV news. Yet, as the tower fire in London showed us we are already rationing our resources. And the poor – not us yet – are the ones who get nothing much of substance. We only get concerned if it is us. but if you want to know what we would look like without container ships landing every week bringing in our food, our medicine, our building tools and so on? Crime, Prostitution, slavery/bondage are all used in order to stay alive in many countries and why should this not happen to us? Cause we are special?
            .

            As for parties being left or not, i never cared. I generally vote left as this is where some of the concerns that i have are addressed. simple as that. If the left would be called Pink Fuzzy Bears i would vote for the Pink Fuzzy Bears. My issue with the ‘left’ is generally that they don’t work well among their fractions. that many of the left vote against their self interest in order to promote this party or that party even if they are destined to loose, i still posit that Fucking Dunne should have been done and send packing last time around – alas the left could not get its act together. Sad! really.

            But am i worried about what will happens when/if we have a societal collapse? No. If i am lucky i be dead when it happens, if i am lucky i will die quickly and painlessly and if i am to live for hecks sake i will have to do what people do today – suck it up and carry on. Cause at the end of the day, that is literally all we can do, now in our current society and in what ever society we have when our civilization has gone bust like so many before us.

          • Robert Guyton 11.3.1.3.2

            Get yourself healthy; drink clean water, sleep deeply and well, eat good food, generate well-being amongst your nearest and dearest then spread the love…those other things? Take them as they come.

  11. adam 12

    Just in case you missed it, our military is in charge whilst munitions grade white phosphorous is pored down on civilian populations in northern Iraq.

    What a great country we are, is this what getting guts was.

    Are superpose to stomach our military burning civilians to death, thanks national, it’s quite sickening how low you can take us.

    • ropata 12.1

      Link pls?

      NZ is only supposed to be there to train local troops (and defend themselves as necessary)

      • adam 12.1.1

        I put this up yesterday.

        Brig. Gen. Hugh McAslan (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824303) has said that we are using white phosphorus on civilian targets.

        http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm

        It was used as a incendiary munition. An important distinction.

        Now folks this is being led by NZ, and they are killing civilians. If this is what Key meant by getting some guts. Then God help us all. This is what the rabbit hole looks like.

        Oh, and here is the piece where they admit they are using it in civilian areas.

        http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/06/13/532809626/u-s-led-coalition-has-used-white-phosphorous-in-fight-for-mosul-general-says

        • Wayne 12.1.1.1

          The screening effect referred to in the final link would be a very specific effect.

          I imagine the intended effect is effectively a narrow line of bright light that is used to prevent ISIS actually seeing the fleeing civilians. The bright white light is being used to destroy night vision of the ISIS fighters (by that I don’t mean actually used on the ISIS fighters). The effect is that the ISIS fighters cannot see what is happening beyond the bright white line of light.

          So not a use on civilians, or ISIS fighters to kill or injure them, as adam purports.

          • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1.1

            I imagine…

            I suspect that you’re talking out your arse and Making Shit Up to defend possible indefensible actions.

          • adam 12.1.1.1.2

            Come on Wayne you were minister of defense, I’m sure you were briefed on the differences in use of white phosphorus? If not, you should really put a complaint to parliamentary services.

            And in this case it was used as incendiary munitions. I agree in all probability it was used as makers and/or flairs as you said. However my case is simple, the media have asked if it was used as a munition, and the gen. responded that it was. So once again if you take the time to read and understand the uses of white phosphorus then you get why I’m saying that firing this stuff at civilians is nasty.

            But then again, you don’t want to have to face the fact that our defense forces have broken the mandate we were suppose to operate under in the middle east. Not only broken it, but gone as far as burning civilians to death with a pretty awful munition. It’s not a banned munition, I get that. But anything which burns straight through flesh is a terror weapon, and to use older language – evil.

            • Tautoko Mangō Mata 12.1.1.1.2.1

              The wall of white light is no justification for using such a terrible chemical weapon such as white phosphorus. What a sick species we are!

          • McFlock 12.1.1.1.3

            Ok, let’s go with that best-case scenario, where they dropped WP onto an urban war zone without immediately hitting any civilians or combatants. You’re still left with the problem of fragments of WP not being immediately consumed, but lying in wait for weeks until people return to the area.

            That’s the other part of the problem of WP: not just that it’s an indiscriminately-burny weapon that is particularly gross and painful, but that also it lurks like an IED until it’s disturbed and burns someone’s foot off.

            • Tamati Tautuhi 12.1.1.1.3.1

              So White Phosphorous can be legally used in warfare these days doesn’t appear to be a particularly nice product especially if it is used on civilians, what about the Geneva Convention Rules ?

              • McFlock

                Short answer “yes with an if”, long answer “no with a but”.

                If the primary purpose of the weapon is to burn or poison people, it’s illegal. If it has some other primary purpose and poisoning or burning is incidental or additional to that, then it’s legal. Hence “blinding ISIS NVDs” rather than “intentionally burning ISIS fighters cajun-style”.

                I’ve heard urban myths of protocols for some weapons (variously .50 cal or WP) that were restricted to use against equipment and vehicles, so tactical commanders would order their employment against “helmets and webbing” to stick precisely within the word of the law.

                Basically, WP is as legally obscure as the vision of people it’s dropped in front of. If you’re dropping it on open fields to cover an advance, and it’s well short of enemy emplacements, there’s not much wrong with that. But dropping it in a city (via artillery or aircraft) basically assumes that sooner or later someone, probably a civilian, will be screaming in agony for an extended period of time.

              • Wayne

                I have read the article that is referenced. I know Gen McAslan, having met him professionally on a number of occasions. I understand enough of military operations to know how white phosphorus munitions would be used in these circumstances. It was once a standard source of white light in various munitions used by the NZDF.

                That is why I am confident it was not used against civilians or ISIS. So while it was obviously “used as a munition” it was not used to target people.

                And that is really the key point. Even Adam seems to accept that in his post at 12.1.1.1.2. I imagine there will be some sort of cleanup plan when the Iraqis troops actually take control.

                • Stuart Munro

                  WP was George Bush’s way of making sure no child is left behind.

                • McFlock

                  It’s the key legal point. But I’m sure many people imagined that various armies had a plan to clean up minefields and DU from various battlefields in the last 80 years, and look how that turned out.

  12. patricia bremner 13

    I see Little and Labour have offered working people and good employers new policy positions.
    See Scoop today.
    Can’t say they are the same as Nats !!!
    Gives people a real difference to vote for.

  13. Molly 15

    One bedroom flatshare for $215/wk in Onehunga, artfully described as a “tiny house”, in realspeak it would called an uninsulated playhouse.

    Will be interesting to see how long the listing remains there.

    • weka 15.1

      I don’t know, the price does seem high, but it includes power, water and internet in a semi-self contained separate building. Looks not bad to me and I would probably call that tiny housing.

      • Molly 15.1.1

        “Tiny housing” to me is intentionally designed or converted fit for purpose.

        Given the scale (looking at the outside table and chairs) and the loft space for sleeping, I would think that the roof is most likely uninsulated, and ventilation would be poor.

        It would more than likely be an illegal occupancy, and a poor substitute for a bedroom in a reasonable house.

        I would understand that it might appeal to some though, but is this the quality we should deliver for $215/wk?

        The maximum sleepout area of 10m2 should be increased to at least 20m2, so that rentals of this kind can be better utilised and built. Local government would be better placed to address this, and failed to do so in the Unitary Plan.

        • weka 15.1.1.1

          Uninsulated and poorly ventilated, are you thinking in the summer it would be too hot?

          In terms of tiny housing, it does look converted fit for purpose to me albeit not perfectly. But then I’m used to people living in much more basic conditions in house trucks, containers, caravans, yurts etc. I agree there is a quality issue for the price, and there will be issues there I don’t understand about the Auckland climate.

          There was one on twitter a while back, single room in a house that was a converted porch, glass on three walls, enough room for a single bed and a cupboard from memory, lots of windows. Near varsity. $90/wk. Some on twitter were saying how terrible it was, while others, myself included, were thinking it didn’t look too bad 😉 Having lived in small spaces like that on low incomes, I looked at the pictures and immediately figured out how to make it better in the winter/summer etc. I wouldn’t live in a space like that now, but when I was 20? Sure, it seems ok. So my expectations start lower I think.

          More of problem for me is the pushing more people into smaller overall spaces e.g. the infill building going on. It’s one thing to live in a small space, it’s another to go outside and be crowded there as well (e.g. building 4 houses on a section seems insane to me, where will you plant the trees 😉 ). I guess some people like that, but each time it just brings me back to the limits of growth.

          • Molly 15.1.1.1.1

            I was thinking more of the mould and dampness that would likely occur from sleeping in such a small space. The problem with some tiny houses on trailers is the loft space has such a small space that people are just glad to get mattresses on them, and don’t think about the fact that mattresses on a solid surfaces sweat and become damp very easily.

            As for the porch for $90 – it is something I would have looked at in my 20’s as well. For me it was the $215, and the permission to use the kitchen for “heavy cooking” if required. No mention of shared space in the actual house ie. sitting room, the requirement for four weeks rent for bond and one week in advance.

            Also, I have graphic memories of living in Southall, London where there were a lot of jimmy rigged sheds and houses in backyards being used for accommodation. A slippery slope, that got worse over time. Have no idea what that is like now. So that may very well be colouring my view.

            • weka 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Well it’s a sad indictment that I’m relatively complacent about it. I think for some people it would be fine but as we know the problem with the shortage is that people are being forced into situations that were meant for people of difference circumstances. Like you I would love to see some good tiny home options being on offer for the people that are suited to them.

        • mauī 15.1.1.2

          I think there would be lots of rooms for rent around, that by the time you’ve put a bed in you have less floor space available than this tiny house. They’ve wisely used the floor space.

          All it needs is a water supply and sink, some sort of fuel stove and a composting toilet and its good to go.

          I think there’s at least 3 windows so ventilation should be ok. Also you can’t tell with the ceiling because it’s lined, but there could well be insulation – it looks pretty decently built too and well presented so they’re more likely to have thought of it.

          I agree though up to 20 square metre building without a permit should be allowable. That would allow more flexibility with the design and you wouldnt be jamming everything into every spare little space.

    • bwaghorn 16.1

      well that 100% kills any should i vote winston thoughts, fuck shane jones

    • JanM 16.2

      Up here in the North it could unseat National, potentially, I suspect

      • bwaghorn 16.2.1

        unseat one candidate and give the nats the next two elections in a nzf nat gov , remember who put jones on the gravy train after he shit on labour?

        • Tamati Tautuhi 16.2.1.1

          Nah NZF & Winston highly unlikely to go with Labour however could be an option if NZF can’t stitch a deal together with Labour or the Greens. NZF will be a major player in this coming Election ?

          • weka 16.2.1.1.1

            yes, which is a very good reason to not vote for them. If NZF spits the dummy over an actual left wing govt (which is quite possible IMO) they will go with National. Either way there is no way to know which means that voting NZF is not a vote to change the govt. It’s roulette.

    • Wainwright 16.3

      This confirmed yet? Feels liek every year we’re told THIS year will be the year Shane Jones returns to politics, like anyone remembers or cares.

  14. Wayne 17

    Well, that is a really radical difference, 75c extra on the minimum wage. Under National it would probably get there on 1 April next year anyway.

    All those 85 foreign interns will no doubt be hittting the streets claiming nirvana has finally arrived. Not that they get paid.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

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