‘Another Labour MP, Damien O’Connor, broke ranks with most of his caucus colleagues yesterday, suggesting Parliament should be focused on “far bigger issues” – and ACT leader John Banks made a U-turn on historical anti-gay comments to back the bill.
Other MPs ducked for cover, refusing any comment on how they would vote.
“We need to uphold marriage as a structure, as a construct around family life as a best intent,” Mr O’Connor said.’
Facetious remark about how we should be worried about ‘bigger stuff’. Check. Remark that straight people should be the only ones who can marry. Check.
Gay people have families too and we’re just as affected by life. Possibly more affected since, you know, we don’t have equal rights. And will you run that ‘bigger issues’ test over everything you want to do? Thought not.
You might want to look at OConnors electorate and its people: they are those old socially conservative working Kiwis, he represents them well. The arrogance of the rest of the liberal left is that they tell these people how to think (as opposed to persuading them). And they are more interested in jobs than gay marriage, they call it priorities.
The daughter of one of the bill’s opponents, West Coast Tasman MP Damien O’Connor, has taken to Facebook to urge him to change his mind and back Labour MP Louisa Wall’s member’s bill with his conscience vote.
In a post on her father’s Facebook page, Bridgette O’Connor said people did not choose to be gay.
“I hope he does vote for gay marriage as society needs to wake up and realise these are normal people who deserve the same treatment and rights as everyone else,” she said.
“It is who they are. They cannot change this and are people like you and I. Why should they be denied the same human right everyone else is entitled to just because they love someone the same sex?”
Mr O’Connor posted in reply that he was proud of his daughter “who thinks for herself and has a strong sense of social justice”.
And, this is indicative of the shift towards support of marriage and sexual equality by younger generations. And here we see a glimmer of evidence that this shift is occurring even amongst young people born and bred on the West Coast.
Lets just hope that the gay marriage bill gets passed, then we can have the rainbow faction of the Labour party get on and represent people with “musts” (such as jobs, food, housing) as opposed to “nice to haves”. I fekkin sick of factional interest groups who have “identities” hijacking the agenda away from those in real need.
Really? I am a lesbian who will continue to speak out for sexual inequalities, and gender inequalities whenever there is a need.
Do you see me spending more time on these issues than those of income/wealth inequalities, racial/ethnic inequalities etc?
When I see comments like yours, Bored, it just feels like a continuation of the prejudices I’ve been dealing with most of my life – telling us to shut up and not mention damaging discrimination. Others (especially white males) are always more important.
Fortunately such prejudices have eased in recent years. Unfortunately they haven’t totally disappeared.
You may feel however you feel about what I said: my life experience has been one of long support for all persuasions, I have many times been arrested protesting for minority positions. Personally I don’t care if you are lesbian, martian, straight, what fekkin ever, I will come out in favour of your right to do anything which has no impact on another person. So don’t sit high and mighty just because you happen to declare you are a lesbian.
My entire point is that I am hopping mad at factional interests groups placing priority on themselves first as opposed to those in real need. We can pass gay marriage etc in the background (and we should), children coming to school hungry is far more top of my priority.
“We can pass gay marriage etc in the background (and we should), children coming to school hungry is far more top of my priority.”
Well Labour has had several member’s bills drawn that would help with children coming to school hungry that were voted down by the government. I’m not really sure what more you can expect them to achieve from opposition.
You can claim your egalitarian principles and activism all you want, Bored. But your final paragraph exposes an underlying belief/distortion. I am just sick of this BS line:
My entire point is that I am hopping mad at factional interests groups placing priority on themselves first as opposed to those in real need. We can pass gay marriage etc in the background (and we should), children coming to school hungry is far more top of my priority.
I’ve tried to argue it carefully many times and still people keep peddling it. If you want it to pass, why protest about it and take a slam at those of us in “identity” categories? It’s a very grudging way of saying “you can have your marriage bill.”
I see NO evidence that we are prioritising marriage equality over poverty, hunger, etc.
We can do more than one thing at once. And I do spend more time on issues of poverty, education etc.
And I don’t even see marriage equality getting more attention in the MSM at the moment than asset sales, poverty etc.
The biggest distractions in the MSM are celebrity “news”, crime stories, PM dance videos, etc. And if marriage equality was such a distraction, why did Paula Benefit and her boss feel such a need to re-hash the drug testing of beneficiaries story, to distract from the Children’s Commissioner report?
Carol, as I said I hope to hell the bill passes (because in my “simple” world view this should not be a sectoral political issue per se, to me its basic rights of a citizen, which is why I am very much pro). I also get hopping mad when I get accused of being “against” interest groups because I happen to propose that we have bigger and more immediate fish to fry. Perhaps I am a grumpy white middle aged male who gets a little sick of being wrong to have any opinion because I am not female / gay / ethnic etc etc. At a gut level it feels to me like a lot of take and no give.
Coming back to OConnor at the start of the thread. There is a delicious historic irony in this for Labour: the party was born on the West Coast in the mining community, and their current MP seems to reflect the blue collar social conservatism of the area. A century later the party has morphed into a middle class dominated group of sectoral interests, whilst the socio – economic reasons for the birth of the party are returning rapidly. My original grumpy position was, “Are these conditions top priority for Labour?”
Bored, agree on the middle-class focus of the current Labour Party, not on the “sectoral interests” bit:
Get used to the fact that the left is no longer dominated by heterosexual white men…. fortunately, and hopefully won’t ever return to that. For too long they were above criticism by the rest of us. It was a long struggle for women, Maori, Pasifika, Asians and LGBT people to gain acceptance and a voice in the left.
So now white heterosexual men come in for some criticism. Get used to it. Those of us who don’t fit into that, still-dominant, demographic also still get constantly attacked, sneered at, smeared and undermined. And I think blaming Labour’s ills on so-called “sectoral interests” is part of that. Where is the evidence for this? Their leader is a white heterosexual male. The most dominant people in the senior ranks are Robertson (yes gay, but also white and middleclass – he promotes middleclass values more than LGBT interests), Parker, Mallard. The main contender to oust Shearer is Cunliffe (white, heterosexual, middleclass, male).
It is good to see more diversity in Labour’s ranks than used to be. The Labour problem, to me, is that they have assimilated too much middleclass-oriented, neoliberal claptrap. And in the line-up, if anything, the main problem is the dominance of white middleclass people pandering to the MSM support of the middle-classes. There is far less pandering to “identity groups”, which are being scapegoated for Labour Party failings to engage more of the lower-socio-economic strugglers.
I think what we have established Carol is that white middle aged males are used to criticism, and that we should get used to more of it for past and current sins: so going forward what would you suggest? Do I sit back and take it, have no opinion because I am what I am?
We are all not just totally some generalised demographic, and not answerable for everything done by others in that demographic.
I also am white and middle-class, and just try to listen to criticisms of those demographics and try to learn from them.
None of us are perfect.
I was mostly responding to a common line that has been perpetuated blaming identity politics (especially LGBT and Māori people, and sometimes women/feminists) for the rightward moves of the Labour Party – that doesn’t match with the evidence I have seen, and undermines the struggles of those groups.
The question is though, is the ability to consider oneself a part of society a must?
You say basic need is purely food in mouths, shelter from rain etc, and then include jobs, which in NZ means a positive social identity as a “tax payer”. Those of an orientation other than heterosexual will always have a stumbling block (Gee, that’s too nice a way of saying it)… will always be oppressed at a point where others can naturally see no hurdles. If we use Maslow’s Hierachy of Need, a simple format, we see that equality and social belonging is 2nd or 3rd tier, barely halfway, while everyone else is franticly pushing for self actualisation – frequently percieved as a right in many circles.
The Labour Party once stood for everyone starting from the same point of having the basics. The emotional, physical and spiritual stress of knowing you are barely tolerated or sometimes actively despised, is not a starting place of equality for open participation in any system. I would not be so hasty to accept the idea that Labour or anyone else can supply a future anywhere near to egalitarian principles while they refuse to examine the importance of foundational issues. Sure, they can grudgingly give assent; justifying it as an irritation that distracts from more important concerns; but in doing so they demonstrate a mindset without understanding the why, that will stumble and turn at the soonest convenience.
Uturn, my welcome view seems unwelcome: yours however I am very much in alignment with. Perhaps the heart of my discontent is that my intuition tells me that Labour don’t have the priorities they once stood for. And maybe I have not groomed a sacred cow.
“You might want to look at OConnors electorate and its people: they are those old socially conservative working Kiwis, he represents them well.”
Are they really? Has there been any polling on their thoughts?
The only poll that I have seen on gay marriage gives some interesting stats…South Islanders are more in favour of gay marriage than the lower/central North Island, or upper North Island. This is different from what we are often told about rural/S.I. conservatives. I always felt that the West Coast leans more towards libertarian values, rather than conservative ones.
I wonder if Damien O’Connor has bothered to find out how his electorate think, or is just pandering to the prejudice held among many liberals that working class people are homophobic? My own experiences have been that in working class and remote communities, people are accepted or not for reasons other than their sexual orientation.
Yes where the hell is the constant barrage over asset sales, privacy breaches and the openly corrupt 2 fingered salute this gov’t is giving to everyone but the wealthy and corporate mates.
Labour is headed toward minor party status under the mallarfia and the chats I have with folk show an unwillingness to persist with them in 2014.
They haven’t cleaned out, they haven’t learned from their mistakes. It’s like watching a badly run business with a bunch of old farts driving it into the dust.
Gay marriage will create jobs through increased tourism and stimulus to the wedding industry. Convinced yet?
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
(Sorry, you are having a laugh aren’t you? That’s the silliest argument I’ve seen yet…)
Yes where the hell is the constant barrage over asset sales, privacy breaches and the openly corrupt 2 fingered salute this gov’t is giving to everyone but the wealthy and corporate mates.
Have you been paying attention?
Labour (and other opposition parties) HAVE kept up a constant barrage – especially on poverty issues in the last few days. They don’t necessarily get cut-through to the MSM on this, but that is either the fault of the MSM or of Labour for poor strategies.
Look at the list of recent Labour Party press releases. See any focus on marriage equality over issues of poverty, education, employment, etc?
Storm brewing for dairy sector?
Damien O’Connor | 28 Aug 2012
Parliament’s chance to help working poor
David Clark | 28 Aug 2012
No justification for mass detention Bill
Darien Fenton | 28 Aug 2012
Time for action on child poverty is now
Jacinda Ardern | 28 Aug 2012
Mighty River’s profits plunge another reason to stop sales
Clayton Cosgrove | 28 Aug 2012
Special School cuts short-change students
Chris Hipkins | 27 Aug 2012
Future of Hillside must be secured
David ShearerClare Curran | 27 Aug 2012
And look at the questions raised in the House. There’s been quite a few primaries and supplementaries questioning the truth of slippery John’s statements:
Labour can improve its strategies, and could be putting out a more consistent and more left wing narrative, in my opinion. But I see no evidence that marriage equality is the main topic of their focus.
I use the MSM, and talk to folk who don’t use this or the labour party, parliamentary and other purely political sources as that’s where the elections are won and lost.
Thanks for the references but no-one out there that needs to be convinced to vote or change their vote is taking notice of those releases.
It’s that thinking that will consign Labour to becoming a minor party.
If a tree falls in the woods and no-one’s listening etc etc play the MSM game or perish.
I agree that opposition parties needs to find ways to engage with more voters, or potential voters.
However, I have some misgivings about a “play the MSM game” approach. This is what Labour/Labor parties have done in English-language countries throughout the “neoliberal”. period since the 80s This has resulted in Blairite 3rd ways and the parties moving to the right.
The left needs strategies that change the game and set a new agenda. It’s a hard task.
But, also, credit where it’s due. People here have been asking for quicker responses from the Labour Party & Shearer, and to counter the Key/NAct spin and damaging policies. Labour & Shearer looks to have taken this on board and are more on the ball.
They still need to improve their strategies, but the state of our MSM does make it a hard task.
“I use the MSM, and talk to folk who don’t use this or the labour party, parliamentary and other purely political sources as that’s where the elections are won and lost.”
TC is right and makes a good point…votes are won and lost in a 10 second sound-bite on the 6pm news. National have been owning Labour since Key came in.
Firstly Labour needs a leader that doesn’t say ‘um’ 4 times in every sentence, then they need to keep hammering their strategy. (maybe get a strategy first)
“The left needs strategies that change the game and set a new agenda. It’s a hard task.”
True, but that (and owning the 10 sec MSM sound-bite) can be done by having Cunliffe as leader…I know its been said a thousand times here, but it looks like it needs to be said another thousand times.
True, but that (and owning the 10 sec MSM sound-bite) can be done by having Cunliffe as leader…I know its been said a thousand times here, but it looks like it needs to be said another thousand times.
I am more for Cunliffe than Shearer as leader for his media performances, but also his policy direction. However, I’m not sure he will provide a complete game-changer: more a change of direction away from neoliberal/neocon dominance. I very much welcome this as a start but not a destination.
A real nice list Carol. Sorry but there is NO MSM outlets there at all, so in fact yiu could say there has been very little coverage. because most people don’t see sites like these listed as they are not main stream sites.
It’s like Key calling Metiria Turei Dopey even gets very little coverage as if it had happened the other way the papers would be screaming it from the roof tops. The Herald never mentions the word dopey and stuff hides it at the bottom of the page
David H, I listed them from the Labour Party site because it’s easier to get them from there as a list.
I have noticed lately that such articles on the Labour Party site are also simultaneously posted as press releases on Scoop, as can be seen with this search:
David H, perhaps the Herald article you provided the link to has been updated, but the very first sentence now reads
Prime Minister John Key has dismissed as “dopey” a recommendation from a panel of experts that a universal child payment should be reintroduced as a way of reducing child poverty.
RNZ National also covered Key’s dopey remarks in full this morning including replaying the exchanges between Key and Turei in Question Time in Parliament yesterday.
My boyfriend observed that the most likely reason for Bank’s changing his position on this is because of the vocal support from the ACToids on campus, who unlike him actually believe in all of that personal choice liberty stuff. Banks is supporting the bill to keep them happy, because they were his only real base of volunteers and supporters on his election campaign.
I love the way he’s prepared to sell his soul to preserve his political sinecure. Repeatedly.
It doesn’t matter if he makes the right choice about marriage equality, or the wrong choice about giving minute instructions to “anonymous” donors on how they can pay him – the fool will sell out each and every time. Worse than Winston.
So Key thinks that doing something about child poverty is dopey in that wealthy families will also enjoy the benefit of child payments.
Well I have a simple solution for him. Increase income tax rates for the wealthy. If they have children then they will get some of this back. But it also means that something can be done about poverty.
The only thing dopey is being Prime Minister and that intellectually and morally bankrupt that you cannot do something, anything, about child poverty. Apart from drug testing beneficiaries.
So where’s the stinging attacks from the opposition, if Labour want that uninterested third to get out and vote in 2014 they’ve got to put some venom into responding to such an arrogant and stupid comment.
Key’s just loving this pathetic opposition, a third term is beckoning if they can’t skewer him over such comments.
There’s quite a good humanised article on it up on Stuff right now. The Greens and Shearer have been quoted rejecting Key’s remarks. I do think Cunliffe could produce more “stinging” criticisms of Key. Shearer just doesn’t have much ooomph in that way.
But also I think the MSM are selective in how much of the opposition comments they report. The article begins with a report on a couple in limited and insecure employment struggling on low income:
They are an example of the new “working poor” – Kiwis working themselves to the bone and living from pay cheque to pay cheque.
They’re not claiming a benefit, they live in private rental accommodation and are struggling.
…
The Greens are hoping to use the report’s strong stance on the need to improve housing to argue the case for extending its insulation scheme when they meet Housing Minister Phil Heatley later this week.
“Too many kids grow up in cold, damp homes,” Greens co-leader Metiria Turei said.
Mr Key agreed much of the housing stock was of poor quality.
“There’s probably some limits to what Government can do but we may be able to encourage landlords to increase the quality of their property.”
Following a fiery debate in Parliament, Labour leader David Shearer criticised Mr Key’s “mocking attitude” and “flippant response”.
“This Government doesn’t have solutions for these problems. It just has excuses.”
‘ But also I think the MSM are selective in how much of the opposition comments they report.’ yes and have been since the run up to the 08 election.
So opposition need a strategy that counters this with short incisive catchy quotes (rhymes work well) repeated adnauseum by every single one of them so the MSM can’t cut it up.
Goff and Shearer are like those boring monotone uncles you avoid at family gatherings
Goff and Shearer are like those boring monotone uncles you avoid at family gatherings
On this, I tend to agree, tc. I can’t see me giving my party vote to a Shearer-led Labour Party. I could even overlook his lack of media presence if I thought he wasn’t so far to the right of Labour. Even Goff has more presence and is more articulate than him.
But I am pleased Labour have upped their game somewhat. Any improvement will be of benefit for a potentially “left”-coalition/support government.
A year ago, I told Muallem, I lunched with the Emir of Qatar, and he was enraged at what he called Bashar al-Assad’s lies, claiming that the Syrian President had reneged on a deal to allow Muslim Brotherhood members to return home.
Muallem nodded. “If you met the same Emir two years ago, he was praising Assad, and considered him a dear friend. They used to have family relations, spending family holidays in Damascus and sometimes in Doha. There is an important question: what happened? I met the Emir in Doha in, I think, November 2011, when the Arab League started their initiative [resulting in the sending of League observers to Syria] and we reached agreement … The Emir told me: ‘If you agree to this initiative, I will change the attitude of Al Jazeera and I will tell [Sheikh] Qaradawi [a popular prelate with a regular slot on the television chain] to support Syria and reconciliation, and I have put down some billions of dollars to rebuild Syria…’ .
“At the same time, when I was waiting to enter a meeting, there was the head of the Tunisian party Ennahda and the Emir issued orders to pay Ennahda $150m to help his party in the elections. Anyway, this was their business. But I asked the Emir: ‘You were having very close relations with Muammar Gaddafi and you were the only leader in his palace when Gaddafi hosted you during the summit – so why are you sending your aircraft to attack Libya and be part of Nato?’ The Emir said simply: ‘Because we don’t want to lose our momentum in Tunis and Egypt – and Gaddafi was responsible for dividing Sudan’.”
Haven’t been around for a while upsetting people but with spring approaching the sun coming out and so did my mischievousness. Here is my video of the day: <a href="You can't change the weather right? Well, they did in Vietnam!
I have a question/request for any feminists out there:
I’ve just been reading about the release of Stewart Murray Wilson. The story says he was convicted of various crimes against women over a 21 year period. I’ve also been reading feminist blogs, some of which outline various basics from a feminist perspective. These have been very helpful in clearing up some of the ideas my brain has stumbled over. One such idea that I now accept is that women cannot protect themselves against rape/assault from men – it is completely the man’s choice to commit these acts and his responsibility.
The problem the story about S. Wilson raises for me though, is if there is a man who “cannot be reached”, rehabilitated, educated or reasoned with, then how will that man ever choose anything other than what he already does? If he never changes, and we accept women cannot protect themselves, then women will never be safe. Does this suggest that there is a strictly feminist view of correction, rehabilitation and justice. Does it necessarily include things like the death penalty and prevetative detention i.e. never letting people out of prison?
So my question is, from a feminist perspective, is there a certain ideology or system of justice or corrections that a feminist must adhere – theoretically speaking – in order to remain true to the idea women can’t protect themselves from sexual assault? Or is feminism a far more pragmatic process that deals with issues case by case, rather than setting up institutional systems based on the fear of what might or could happen?
I don’t think there is one feminist line on most things – much like the left, really.
Yeah. That is one of the reasons that I thought this site would be worth expending effort on. I’d noticed that the ‘left’ was getting a bit too silo’ed into their own talking groups and not listening enough to differing opinions within the very broad left or even the right.
I figured that having a on-line forum with a quite loose format* would help. Thus far I think it has. I think we have managed to irritate damn near everyone many times… Which rather means we’re doing what we intended.
* Essentially that boils down to “don’t bore the moderators too much”, “don’t do anything that will cause the site legal issues or overstep the moderators sense of justice” and “we aren’t giving out anyone’s information”.
I’ve been all over the finallyfeminism101 blog and associated links (thanks QOT for your helpful links), but haven’t found anything yet on how the basics connect to a wider picture, if there is such a picture.
Failing such a picture existing, I’m interested to hear how any feminist sees the question of justice.
For me personally, in the circumstances of our current society, I’m in favour of preventive detention for people who it’s established simply can’t be rehabilitated.
But I do know that there’s also arguments made by feminists (usually anarcho-feminists I think, if you want a handy label to google) against our entire current system of judicial punishment, including prisons. You could also debate to what extent the “urges” felt by some offenders to hurt women/children are affected by the society they’re living in.
Certainly I would say that one thing increasing the risk towards women and other people from some rapists/abusers/murderers is the prejudices and assumptions we make about different offenders – if they’re a clean-cut pillar of the community like the BTK killer (white, church deacon) then people assume they can’t be involved in horrific acts, or consider how one of Dahmer’s victims was returned to his house by police because of bigoted beliefs about gay men.
In the case of Wilson, it was better put by LudditeJourno – the people of Whanganui need to understand that there are already rapists in their community, they’re just well-hidden, and our assumptions about what kind of people do those kinds of things are helping to hide them.
Uturn 6
I have always been interested in feminism. And women have been leaders in raising the issues of respect and justice to more than just women., to society.
Wilson should have been in preventative detention, and that is in prison grounds definitely. Past governments have been too right-wing, more concerned about theft and property than protection of the person and the rights to a safe and peaceful life by society, especially women and children who form the greatest numbers of victims of violence.
Also non-bullying systems in schools and educating parents on what to watch for, to prevent children starting on coercive habits that grows in a few to the skewed personality beyond redemption. The society should pick up feminist ideas and consider society being damaged and act early. At present the jail sentence is the useless and expensive punishment, which when served finishes the matter and the unrehabilitated man, the largest proportion of the genders, leaves to continue his damaging behaviour usually on a woman or women, children, animals, and anyone needy and vulnerable..
I think there will always be a warped few, but we can improve the influences when young
That few should be kept away from ordinary society, like lepers used to be. Lepers can be cured but I don’t believe Wilson and his ilk never will.
I think some feminists see it as the all-pervasive rape culture that is the problem, as argued here. As I understand it, the argument is that rapists can control their behaviour, that most rape goes un-reported because they are shielded from view by the rape culture. Rape is a crime of exercising power and control, not one of uncontrollable sexual urges. So the answer is to change the culture (and the power dynamics?).
Leaving aside all the other evidence, this ignores the recent research into who the rapists are: they are not out of control. They are very much in control.
…
Well, in the first instance, the rapists are the problem. They need to stop raping people. But they’re not doing it by accident, so no program of education will make them stop. Instead, we as a culture need to clear the underbrush they hide in: the tangle of sexist crap and conventional wisdom that results in a practical inability to enforce laws against rape except in cases that fit a very narrow paradigm. Make no mistake, the culture is the problem.
And in your possible ways of constraining convicted rapists, Uturn, you left out chemical castration, which is used in one or two countries.
I think some feminists see it as the all-pervasive rape culture that is the problem. As a male I find the concept of there being such an “all-pervasive” culture deeply disturbing. Having said that there is in my mind a pervasive culture of brutalisation of the individual in society in all sorts of everyday life events.
On constraining rapists, I am with Prism with regard to preventative detention to prevent their brutal actions: punishments such as imprisonment or castration appear to me to be more brutalisation, (the domain of Garth McVicars mob).
As a male I find the concept of there being such an “all-pervasive” culture deeply disturbing. Having said that there is in my mind a pervasive culture of brutalisation of the individual in society in all sorts of everyday life events.
I do think there is a lot of brutalisation within our culture. And that fits with the notion that rape is an act of power and control rather than a sexual act.
Good read QOT, theres nothing there I disagree with. Context however to “all pervasive” is another issue again. As a male I am extremely aware of the violence and brutality that society inflicts on all members, male and female, by male and female. Rape is one extremely loathsome nasty form. Others abound, one wonders at our inhumanity.
Uturn, I’ve appreciated your thoughtful questions and comments today. Don’t have much to add re Wilson, except that I agree people who cannot change should be prevented physically from harming others. Beyond that I believe in concepts of restorative justice, but sadly we are a very long way from being able to consider that.
btw, some women can and do protect themselves from sexual assault. It’s just that not all women can all of the time. But even if they could, they deserve to be protected from having to.
Save me from news from the USA. Nothing but wars and circuses. All using lots of money that is not available to the employing part of the economy and people that the politicians and their puppet masters have impoverished. Mitt Romney for President from the Republicans. They should be called Replumbicans, get their u-beds cleaned.
And don’t call this guy Mittens give him Gloves and tell him to punch himself in the nose. In the meantime I have to turn off the news all the time. It seems that we are being suffocated as the USA presses us to its ‘kindly’ bosom.
With inequality increasing the fastest of all OECD countries, New Zealand now has 270,000 children living in poverty… That’s a quarter of all Kiwi kids growing up impoverished and in need. In a developed country with ample resources, this is a complete and utter disgrace!
General response to child poverty amongst sizable part of population, majority? – Orr who cares, that’s SEP. They are hopeless anyway, can’t do it properly (parents). Lazy sods. Waste of time trying to help them.
Bored
For sure. And cancel Family First at Waipereira arbitrarily – that will save money and it’s useless, anyway it was. One of the reports said so. I don’t know what it was trying to do actually as I haven’t read the report, that’s not my bag, but I’ve got Paula for that and why bark when you own a dog?
The ERO have scanned their reports on schools and summarised the three main findings.
1 Is the need to give more attention to individuals. Ha just when more demanding children are
being added to the mix and not enough help to integrate and support them. Also bigger classes.
2 To have a ‘rich’ curriculum. That’s rich. The findings from overseas that I’ve heard of indicate that with the rigidity of demands about satisfying the ‘Standards’ the main teacher attention goes on those subjects and teaching them in a way that allows perfect understanding of the points likely to be tested on.
I can’t remember the third point. The report sounds like a lot of specious drivel from highly-paid education specialists waffling on about things they can’t do themselves (possibly consultants). Their workplace involves sitting on chairs and working out tests for teachers out in the field who will be likely to fail the tests and demands because they are so unreasonable and impractical.
Further on the ERO report by –
Dr Graham Stoop is ERO’s chief executive and the Chief Review Officer
I listened again and he was berating teachers like a finger-pointing School Principal to pupils.
He said something like “I am sick and tired of saying this (whatever) and very few schools are following our advice”. What a lack of respect for dedicated trained workers and professionals. http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/middayreport
I think that attitude flows from the generic managerial approach to everything and anything that is current. A manager doesn’t need to have in-depth understanding and experience of the field he is entering and his interest is in meeting targets and budgetary considerations. Even School Principals I think may not have been teachers or they may not have have actual relevant teaching experience.
The humorless humor of “Sir” Robert Jones
Wednesday 29 August 2012
If you have ever wasted a few hours and struggled through one of his dire self-published “satirical” novellas, you will be aware that the thuggish property speculator “Sir” Robert Jones fancies himself as a humorist. Perhaps his favorite humorous remark over the last few years is this drily delivered comment on gay rights: “Now you can go off and marry your horse if you want!”
No, I don’t think it’s funny either. But when Jones delivers that piece of comedy gold in front of a servile and intimidated host like Richard Griffin or Radio Sport’s Graham Hill, it always elicits a guffaw. Whether the guffaw is sincere or simply dutiful is a moot point.
Jones’s humour might not be for everyone, certainly not anyone with a sense of humour, but he still has his admirers in the media. For example, if you were sad enough to listen to yesterday’s edition of “The Huddle” on NewstalkZB, you will have heard this….
LARRY WILLIAMS: This government report wants school breakfasts to be provided at low decile schools. Ha ha ha! I see they reckon it would be for 850 schools! Ha ha ha!
DEBORAH CODDINGTON: Why can’t the local community just get together at the church hall and provide these breakfasts? Why does it always have to be the government?
LARRY WILLIAMS: Exactly. All right, gay marriage.
JOCK ANDERSON: I’m against it. It’s just politicians cozying up to gays, many of whom happen to be my friends I might add!
LARRY WILLIAMS: Ha ha ha!
JOCK ANDERSON: But I’m against it.
LARRY WILLIAMS: Deborah, what do you think?
DEBORAH CODDINGTON: I disagree with Jock. They can marry their CAT for all I care!
JOCK ANDERSON: Haw haw haw haw haw!
LARRY WILLIAMS: Ha ha ha ha ha! That’s what Bob Jones says, isn’t it! Ha ha ha ha ha!
DEBORAH CODDINGTON: Yes I think it is! Ha ha ha ha ha!
JOCK ANDERSON: Haw haw haw haw haw!
LARRY WILLIAMS: Thanks, Deborah and Jock. Up next: Murray Deaker!
I’ve just heard that noted wit the Rt. Hon. Maurice Williamson quip to reporters, with the division bells ringing in the background, that he had “heard someone say that now you can marry your dog”.
Evidently the Rt. Hon. member finds that to be a particularly clever comment.
How in God’s name can you bear to listen to 1ZB Morrissey? It’s worse than Radio Live. Once in a blue moon I stop and listen to Leighton Smith while passing through the ether. I have never had to wait more than five minutes for the inevitable tirade of abuse towards all believers of Climate Change. I really believe this man has a serious mental disorder where the subject of Climate Change is concerned.
How in God’s name can you bear to listen to 1ZB Morrissey?
I listen to it so you don’t have to, Anne.
It’s worse than Radio Live.
While Radio Live has some excellent hosts, such as Keith Stewart, Karen and Andrew, and some of the Sunday people, there are also some pretty braindead people there. Here are a few of their most egregious bottom-trawlers: Michael Laws, Mitch Harris, Martin Devlin, John Matheson, Hamish McKay.
And the godawful Maggie Barry had a slot there until raised to the level of her incompetence last November.
“New Zealanders shafted by fraudulent justice system, says top QC”
My comment (we’ll see how long it stays up 🙂
“Combine the lack of legally qualified ‘horses for courses’ (including the lack of specialised Judges) with the FACT that our NZ judiciary is effectively ‘out of control’ – with NO enforceable ‘Code of Conduct’ for NZ Judges, no Register of Pecuniary Interests for NZ Judges and Court proceedings regularly not being recorded – then ask yourself – how on EARTH is New Zealand ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’?
Well, it appears that this government have caved in on software patents:
A clause stipulating that “a computer program is not an invention for the purposes of this act” will be qualified by another that prevents anything from being an invention for the purposes of the act “only to the extent that a patent or an application relates to a computer program as such”.
The New Zealand Open Source Society reacted angrily to the bill’s new wording in a blog post. “With the removal of the explicit software patent exclusion, and the addition of two tiny words, ‘as such’, Foss has more or less thrown Kiwi software developers under a bus,” it said.
This government has just made it much harder and expensive for our software firms to be innovative.
I hope that this blog isn’t going to be the in-place for conducting inquests on rape and the disgraceful behaviour of men. There seems to be a group who comment here putting women’s rights above everything else. Aren’t there other blogs who specialise in supporting women who want to complain and talk about victimisation? But who can’t self-examine themselves or their sisters and perhaps their own provocative behaviour, or even agree that women can act provocatively and unreasonably. And can’t agree that the world can be unsafe and individuals should be cognisant and take some responsibility for themselves.
I fear that if the present trend continues The Standard will become dominated by one issue which will never finish because it is such a fertile field for criticisms. These will always be renewed as there are many attacks and discriminatory behaviours that would outrage any person. But they cannot be discussed in any rational manner looking right around the problem, trying to find a way to limit and then stop assaults.
If this happens the commenters with wider interests looking for real discussions on them will go elsewhere.
Whao, dude, where did this come from? I haven’t been around for a while, but the last couple of Open Mikes I’ve read haven’t been overrun with what you describe. Are you refering to the perspectives in the link posted by Carol a #6.4? If so, you have to understand that they are fully supported by logical reasoning and statistics and that any attitude you may detect in necessarily abbreviating some of the concepts is completely allowable and valid. They are talking to the converted, to some degree.
If there is a specific idea or concept in mind, offer it up. Do you want to discuss the arbitrary limitations of personal responsibility? Would you like to investigate the myths around self-protection in a prejudiced and priviledged world? How about the hidden dangers of using analogy to assist logic? That’s how the Standard Open Mike works isn’t it?
Uturn
I actually don’t want to discuss any of your suggestions. And I find it just as irritating to come across gender politics regularly as I found Pete George’s too frequent comments. And he made reasonable comments also, but with a slant towards his favourite argument. With gender politics there is a team that comes out of a huddle and envelops the discussion.
There are a lot of things I am concerned about and I think that I can leave you to worry at the female angle on anything.
I have to say I find your comment quite bizarre prism. As far as I can tell the recent upsurge in discussions from ‘female angles’ has happened for two reasons:
1. Morrissey spammed TS with posts about the Assange case, and eventually some of us got sick of the rape apologies going on, so we started talking about that aspect of the case. Flowing on from that has been wider discussion about rape and rape culture.
2. There are more women commenting here now. It’s natural that intelligent, politicised women will want to talk about issues what interests them.
Ghettoising women in the blogosphere is akin to saying that women shouldn’t take their interests anywhere where men have dominated (eg parliament). Women aren’t going to take their little interests back to the kitchen. Sorry mate, you’re just going to have to suck it up.
I’m also guessing that you mean that talking about rape makes you uncomfortable. This is understandable, but I don’t think it is reasonable to expect women not to talk about rape in mixed company, given that the problem is with men. I wouldn’t worry about it too much though, it will come and go as a topic like other ones do.
btw, I’ve been meaning to say this for some time. I’ve been really enjoying how many women are commenting here now. TS is a fairly blokey place, which is fine, and I think it adds to the place to have strong women’s voices here too. This isn’t just in obvious feminist discussion, I’ve been noticing the different views that women often bring into the debates. A few men have commented on this too.
And I would add that the issue today that has given rise to some of the comments is the passage of the marriage equality bill. I’m not into marriage myself, but understand that for a large number of LGBT people, it’s a significant milestone – a measure of achieving full acceptance in the eyes of contemporary society. It’s not an issue that’s likely to dominate here once the bill is passed.
I can remember the time when people, even friends, rarely talked about homosexuality, and when they did it was with a significant sneer and demonisation. The impact was debilitating for those so ostracised, in every sphere of their lives. I have known people who have committed suicide, been incarcerated in psychiatric institutions (and one old guy in the UK who had been imprisoned), deteriorated into alcohol or other addictions, and/or been rejected by their families.
So, please can we (hopefully) celebrate an important landmark, without one or two (and it is a minority) of those whose sexuality has dominated exclusively for too long, giving us a bit of a slap and saying “But what about me?”
Another stimulus to discussion of rape/sexual assault today came from Uturn’s question (I have the impression UTurn is a male).
And then you will see, I for one, will be largely back to the pressing issues of income inequality, poverty, employment structure etc….. ones that won’t make one or two leftie guys feel the least bit uncomfortable.
I’ve been really enjoying how many women are commenting here now. TS is a fairly blokey place, which is fine, and I think it adds to the place to have strong women’s voices here too.
It is a steadily rising tide. Quite encouraging bearing in mind that we do have some rather pointed debates going on at various times.
However, for the sheer volume of comments you can’t beat a man for their genetically enhanced obsessional devotion. And alas we don’t have nearly as many obsessionally persistent female authors as I’d like. Probably for the same reason I suspect.
😈 cat/pigeons…
BTW: I like obsessional devotion. I’m a programmer by choice mostly because I can’t get bored programming (as I did with every other profession I went into). The continuous massive and ongoing learning curve is great. Try to find another profession where the body of knowledge in a field requires me to still spend ~20% of my time learning new stuff after 20 years coding professionally. Programmers have obsessional devotion emblazoned as part of their job description. If you don’t have it then you descend and wind up as a manager…..
Chur, weka. lprent and The Standard have occasionally reposted me or hosted my guest-posts, like I just commented above moments ago, but I’m always happy to have more fame thrust upon me! 😛
We should do that. I don’t know about the others but I have been so busy that I have problems reading this site. Other sites haven’t been easy to find time for.
Final freeze on hardware and code in October. And I am already behind in my code because of a flu or something on Thursday..
Morrissey spammed TS with posts about the Assange case, and eventually some of us got sick of the rape apologies going on, so we started talking about that aspect of the case.
What rape apologies have I ever engaged in? Perhaps you have some evidence to back up your self-rigteous posturing, but I strongly doubt it.
Yes they do (and I’m fairly sure that the few minutes between my posting them and you replying isn’t long enough for you to have examined them). But I didn’t post them for your benefit 😉
No they do not, and you know perfectly well they do not.
(and I’m fairly sure that the few minutes between my posting them and you replying isn’t long enough for you to have examined them).
Good Lord, how slow is your internet connection? I clicked on most of them, and recognized what I’d written, which of course was nothing like what you claimed.
But I didn’t post them for your benefit
Running such a malicious campaign of falsehoods certainly is not beneficial to your own reputation. So why exactly DID you post them?
The matters you don’t want others to talk about, even though you’ve brought them up yourself, seemingly out of the blue, are a very small proportion of the multitude of discussions on open mike, and also a small proportion of the many subjects that those who have offended you, have talked about on open-mike.
Interesting that you have perceived them as dominating though.
I agree DTB. But what quality discussion can be held when accusations of “rape apologist” and “supporter of rape culture” are quickly rolled out.
Because that’s not about any kind of real discussion, that’s simply about shutting discussion down. i.e. your perspectives are wrong, my perspectives are right, there’s nothing whatsoever inbetween to be discussed, and if you bring it up again you must be a very bad person.
If a commenter does not wish to be accused of being a “rape apologist”, then that commenter should avoid making comments that appear to marginalise rape complainants and minimise the extent and effect of what acts have been complained about.
Avoiding the standard tropes of “he’s a nice guy”, “but they were in bed together”, “she obviously changed her mind the next day” and “golly gee, but what does ‘consent’ really mean?” would also help.
No I think it means show your reasoning without skipping any of the process. That is what is called discussion. And if your reason is you just don’t like X or Y or some other whim, and intend never to learn or change, then admit it. Worst case, people should be able to reach impasses amicably and then just leave off.
It’s also evidence of understandably unprepared people (nobody can know everything) attempting to discuss often emotionally charged topics.
If everyone approached contentious issues in good faith, had intimate knowledge about the privilege society grants their skin, gender, physical size, ability and appearance, family history etc; could tell the difference between an animate and an inanimate object, making comparisons of like accurately; understood the literal and cultural implications of the English language; then the conceptual abbreviations that emerge as accusations such as rape apologist/supporter either wouldn’t happen or would be understood as attacks on the ignorance of privilege, not the individual.
Someone who has spent a lifetime experiencing negative isms will see things a bit more angrily when it’s pushed once more in their face, than those who haven’t and who (sometimes unintentionally) say things that push emotional triggers in the oppressed party. Must a victim constantly walk each unknowing person through the basics forever and ever without showing the least bit of irritation? Could they be forgiven for thinking a certain train of thought or phrasing of words will lead the same place every time? Must they be asked to use words that upset them, so that their opponents don’t get upset? And do it all from a defensive position. It’s a big ask. Even Gandhi and Christ got mad.
It doesn’t need to shut discussion down. If the oppressed person gets angry at unintentional errors and then says to the unaware privileged party, “You’re a bad person” then surely that too is understandable. Hurt occupies all spheres of the human psyche, emerging in all ways rational and irrational. So while we play with concepts, safely, on our PC screens and several degrees removed, with no consequences thanks to the distance of the internet; talking about rape as if it’s merely a four letter word and nothing more; someone else has and is living the reality. While the privileged party is unaware of their privilege, or maybe carrying their own emotional scars set off by conflict, they too will get hurt and then arguments starts, polarisation is reached and nothing good.
The Standard is not a minority space as such. Anyone can join in without having to pass a test. lprent was just saying how a broader selection of views was the motivation to begin this place. However, there is no mystery that a certain attitude and perspective holds sway here. Nothing wrong with that, everything has to start somewhere. If you’re cis, as QoT put it earlier, allowing a bit more leeway, carrying a bit more of the load, taking a few hits without moaning its not fair, to allow voices not usually heard, isn’t going to end in the total silencing of the sacred privileged voice.
A place like this has the potential to allow people with differences to meet, with a greater buffer for ignorant people to get less ignorant without the wounds they would get blundering into a minority space. That’s why I come here, as one of the ignorants. If that doesn’t happen, it’s because the dominant culture couldn’t make changes, not any particular hostility from a visitor.
Unfortunately it’s the jump to accusations of rape apologist that is often lacking reasoning and empathy with the opponents point of view. It is understandable that people are ignorant, and in the case of rape culture this is sometimes beneficial.
Contentious I know, but the best way of not being a victim is to not let your resentment at the abuse you’ve received be perpetuated onto innocent (ignorant) people. In a way you’re simply making an excuse for the cycle of abuse to continue, albeit in a limited way. Ghandi and Christ certainly did not preach for the continuance of hurt in any of its manifestations and I think both sides of the discussion should think a bit harder about what they write as to not cause offense when it is not deserved.
I’m glad there’s a group (both men and woman) who comment here that highly value women’s rights. This is in stark contrast to many other blogs where a feminine perspective is criticized, if its present at all. Men need to face the fact that women have been badly treated and repressed for a very long time and some of the negative comments directed in a generalized way are deserved. Some of course are not, but it’s a kind of rebalancing if you like that the blogosphere and western culture in general needs to see a lot more of.
Prism has a valid point concerning the Assange debate which just went around in circles for days. That stagnation more than talking about rape per se makes me now skip through such comments. In my opinion, much of the discussion was doing more harm than good… I think we can all agree that’s not the desired outcome.
“Unfortunately it’s the jump to accusations of rape apologist that is often lacking reasoning and empathy with the opponents point of view.”
I don’t think that accusation has been made widely against specific people here. Mostly I’ve been talking about Assange, then later Pilger, and in a general sense of x attitude supports rape culture. I know you took some of my general comments personally, but IMO you were mistaken.
“Prism has a valid point concerning the Assange debate which just went around in circles for days.”
Funny how people remember things differently. See I remember the general Assange debate going on for much longer than that. Ad nauseum. Very long threads and arguments that I’m sure lots of us weren’t even reading in the end. But when some of us started talking about the rape issues, all of a sudden this is a problem. It didn’t go round in circles for days. There were some interesting lines of conversation that arose periodically and that eventually morphed into discussion about things like consent.
If those “discussion points” follow the same form as tactics used to minimise rape for the last several hundred years, don’t bother to raise them.
If those “discussion points” are verbatim, demonstrable lies from the “nice guy’s” legal team, don’t bother to raise them.
And if you don’t understand the difference between “I want this” vs “No, don’t do that”, don’t bother commenting because you can add nothing to the debate.
If you have clear and demonstrable reasons for believing a complaint to be false then in that case, fair enough. But remember that western society has largely been built on minimising the impact of injustice and violence against (amongst others) women, and try to phrase your argument accordingly. You shouldn’t have to step back in time fifty or one hundred years simply to defend a genuinely “nice guy”.
What irritates me is that while there are real injustices and inequalities happening in the world, there is also a brigade who appears to think that they are all of a comparable magnitude, that you can primarily resolve them by wordsmithing the vocabulary people use, by controlling the discussions they engage in, and by badgering them with indignant moral righteousness.
I’m predicting that’s gonna be a fail, but I could be wrong.
You shouldn’t have to step back in time fifty or one hundred years simply to defend a genuinely “nice guy”.
Not sure if you are applying this to Assange, but by most accounts he’s a real prick.
Trying to avoid the Assange thing while addressing the point. Even though he is very much the elephant in the room.
Even if injustices and inequalities all each had their own place in a single objective continuum of “magnitude”, surely a person is able to advocate against one without supporting another?
Surely bringing up rape myths to try to discredit allegations against someone who opposes high-magnitude injustices cheapens us all? And surely it would also be unnecessary if the allegations were demonstrably false?
I just read Open Mike of 18/8 again, lots of vitriol, and I read Uturn on giving greater leaway to victims because I might be privleged.. ., and I perceive a lot of guilty before proven flying around, and some views being ascribed greater value because of who says them. All couched in complicated arguments. I am no better informed.
What irritates me is that while there are real injustices and inequalities happening in the world, there is also a brigade who appears to think that they are all of a comparable magnitude, that you can primarily resolve them by wordsmithing the vocabulary people use, by controlling the discussions they engage in, and by badgering them with indignant moral righteousness.
Mostly I agree with this and would rather argue my corner based on reference to relevant evidence and (what seems to me) a logical argument.
But there is also a place for expressing moral indignation or anger, so long as it doesn’t become a persistent MO.
This:
real injustices and inequalities happening in the world, there is also a brigade who appears to think that they are all of a comparable magnitude,
Some feminists these days refer to the “oppression olympics” (my oppression is worse than yours) as a fruitless endeavour,.
They (and I) prefer an approach labelled “intersectionality” i.e. taking each issue separately and being aware of how various injustices/inequalities can intersect, overlap, feed off each other, and at times conflict. So for instance, the division between class/socio-economic issues and “identity” issues is not that clear-cut. What about working class or unemployed LGBT people, or Māori, or women in any of those groups?
Well, I too have been known to express a note of moral indignation from time to time 🙂
They (and I) prefer an approach labelled “intersectionality” i.e. taking each issue separately and being aware of how various injustices/inequalities can intersect, overlap, feed off each other, and at times conflict.
This is fine for an academic or policy analyst. But outside of those circles, extremely few individuals conceptualise their lives or those of their communities in terms of “intersectionality”, or would be persuaded by such arguments.
Actually, many might not use the word “intersectionality”, but many do, in practice see themselves in terms of more than one identity. It’s a fact of life in modern society. How else would an unemployed lesbian or disabled person see themselves?
And some feminists who use such terms are not particularly aademic.
I certainly don’t see it any more of an abstract academic concept than many you have used in discussions of economics, financial organisations and socio-economic structures.
CV & Carol, you have both illustrated nicely where the downward spiral perpetuates from…Academia.
There are other factors, but by in large the overwhelming majority are ruled by the financial, and academic elite, while the sporting elite, and other skilled indivuduals, teams or groups, are simply the entertainment and distrations for the “unwashed”,
Until the the gap is bridged, more inequality in terms of poverty/wealth, educated and undereducated will drive humanity into the ground.
The human experiment is failing, unless youre at the top end of it, and until a connection can be found to the “unwashed”. there is no turning the ship around, not that I believe there is a desire to do so!
No amount of online posteuring will contribute, not in any meaningful way, and I would hope that the two of you are active not just in the virtual space, your posts would indicate potential!
But remember that western society has largely been built on minimising the impact of injustice and violence against (amongst others) women,
How can we forget. It’s still happening amongst other awful things. Rachel Corrie was mentioned on Open Mike by William Joyce, that’s an awful thing that should be remembered. Though sex wasn’t involved. I think being run over by a bulldozer is worse than most things.
McFlock 14 4 1 1
So you want to decide what people should say and think. That is despotic and prejudiced. You jump in and attack with words anyone with an opinion you don’t approve of with rape inflaming your mind. Perhaps it would be better to have a thread just for angry feminists that you can moderate for yourselves and let us have the rest of the blog to put our thoughts as ‘ordinary’ people.
So you want to decide what people should say and think
Nah, mate.
But if people are allowed to minimise sexual assault because it makes their politics inconvenient, I’m allowed to call it what it is. If they don’t want to be called “rape apologists”, the best way is for them to avoid acting like “rape apologists”.
So in the interests of their personal politics, who exactly is seeking to minimise rape and sexual assault? And who exactly is seeking to maximise rape and sexual assault?
Nobody “maximises” rape as far as I’ve seen. Quite a few simply insist that it be called what it is.
As for “who minimises” rape, for a start try the people who argue that any particular case of a person claiming to have been forced to have sex against their will was not “real” rape, or that they complained out of jealousy, or that they were in bed with the accused so anything is okay, or that nothing ever happened and they made it up for their own reasons. All based on very little knowledge of what actually happened.
If you have a particular case in mind, look at the comments about the incident. See if any match. There’s your answer.
Nobody “maximises” rape as far as I’ve seen. Quite a few simply insist that it be called what it is.
You’re pretending that one word “rape” is a satisfactory descriptor while I believe it is not. That one word alone is not sufficient to cover the very wide range of situations and offending which can occur. This NZ law understands. And even the Swedes recognise that there are wide variations in culpability, as we also see in the wide range of sentences our courts hand out. So yes I agree with you fully, “rape” needs to be called exactly what it is, straight out.
But then you have to take it to the next step and differentiate between the severity of the crime, e.g. as Sweden does – ‘minor rape’, ‘moderate rape’ and ‘severe rape’. (Although I don’t know the exact Swedish translation is, they have 3 grades of severity enshrined in legislation as I understand it). I take it that you have no problem accepting this, from what I have read.
All based on very little knowledge of what actually happened.
Yeah which is why I’m sick of people assuming Assange is guilty based on circumstantial matters (“oh look he happened to leave Sweden at a very convenient time!”) instead of giving him the presumption of innocence which he is due.
“Rape” is perfectly adequate to describe “sex without consent”. Far more accurate than “sex by surprise”, for example.
Where did anyone say that Assange is definitely guilty of rape?
As opposed to people claiming that the women made up their allegations, or that there is not a shred of evidence against him (when courts in two jurisdictions have found otherwise), I mean.
Yeah, I’ve never said I thought Assange was guilty. Seriously, we’ve been through this before. Alot.
btw, I am under no obligation to give Assange the presumption of innocence. Jurors are, as are media, judges, etc. But not me, nor you. I don’t happen to have an opinion about Assange’s guilt or innocence. My arguments have been based solely on the reports of the complainants and that if they are true, then it was rape.
‘Rape’ is the word in common usage. We’re not in a court of law here.
The problem with using terms like ‘minor rape’ is that outside a legal situation in Sweden, they’re meaningless. Want to tell a woman that’s been raped that her rape was minor? Think about that.
I’ll use the terms sexual assault and sexual abuse as needed (although not strictly interchangeable), so it’s not like the term rape has to be used all the time. Shall we call a man putting his erect penis in a woman’s vagina while she is asleep and without her prior consent ‘sexual abuse’? Is that better?
Looks to me like some of the men here are taking things personally, and in all honesty, things probably not even directed at them. Any chance you could take a step back and give some of us the benefit of the doubt, that we might actually know what we are talking about? I don’t mean accept whatever is said, I mean get to know the concepts and language and issues and then debate them meaningfully.
I can’t see the difference between an angry feminist and an angry [insert politics of choice]. People get angry here all the time, so what is the problem when women/feminists do it? Although for the record, I don’t feel angry most of the time posting here on these issues. I do feel frustrated in a rolling eyes, here we go again, kind of way. And disappointed. The rape discussions haven’t really gotten past 101 level yet (actually that is me being kind, in some ways some of them are not even in high school yet). Can you imagine what it is like being here with so many intelligent passionate people and them struggling to get even basic concepts? (obviously I’m not talking about everyone here). Seeing people here with massive knowledge about certain areas of politics and then realising that they have so little knowledge of other issues that it’s hard to even have a coherent conversation?
‘Rape culture’ theory is a legitimate political analysis. ‘Rape apologist’ is a legitimate descriptor of how some people endorse rape culture. If you are not familiar with those terms, as feminists use them, then I suggest you take some time to learn about them. Then some of what is being discussed might start to make sense.
btw it’s very strange to see TS regulars saying that it’s not ok to call people names :roll:. Or that suddenly we’re not allowed to critique use of language, or challenge people on what they are saying. Or that making strong arguments is somehow trying to control how people think or makes us despotic. Good grief, that’s what commenters here do all the time.
I agree that many commenters use quite dismissive terminology, not just feminists. They can’t be the apt terms to use on occasions, but they don’t usually work for me, especially when used a lot.
I consider myself a feminist, but tend not to use such terms like “xxxxx apologist” . I tend to feel it doesn’t help with communicating an argument, but just works as a debate-stopper. And they tend to sound like jargon that just works to interfere with the message.
Just because many feminists use such terms, doesn’t mean it’s really that helpful to use them a lot in debates….. IMO.
As it was a reply to you I was being specific. Of course the structure of the sentence was also general enough that it could apply to anyone reading it.
And when people are thinking about injustice they can find it everywhere as you say.
The problem being was that you were whinging about people discussing a particular injustice, in your words, “putting women’s rights above everything else”. Hiding from that injustice isn’t going to make it go away.
As has been pointed out before, we can discuss and act on more than one thing at a time.
DTB
Yes that is what I was asking for, not to be dominated by one thing and told what to think about it. Hardly a rational discussion allowed.
Also I was making a salient point that if women’s rights were going to dominate, it would be an irritant just like Pete G was and in the end people won’t want to use the site. But we can criticise Pete G who wasn’t always wrong, and freeze him off with faces, but I presume women’s rape and sexual assaults can’t be treated the same. It is not PC to honestly say enough. It is not allowed.
But I think I’m wasting my time trying to explain this. I will probably just give up. And spend my time elsewhere trying to understand things that are available to be understood, noted, questioned, discussed, ameliorated, changed, and hopefully be solved or at least improved. That’s what interests me and what I thought I’d see on this blog.
prism, and bored too – the discussions are a chance for you to learn, to listen and think, not just about what is being said, but why it is being said. I have learned so much from those arguments and I don’t think they are a waste, or use up bandwidth, no – they are essential IMO.
You guys are missing out on the best education out there – learning from others who are different to you, about their experiences and views – it is a gift, stop wasting it.
“Also I was making a salient point that if women’s rights were going to dominate, it would be an irritant just like Pete G was and in the end people won’t want to use the site. But we can criticise Pete G who wasn’t always wrong, and freeze him off with faces, but I presume women’s rape and sexual assaults can’t be treated the same. It is not PC to honestly say enough. It is not allowed.”
I don’t see it. The rape issues aside, there isn’t that much discussion about women’s rights here and I don’t see much protest about talking about women’s rights on TS either. We’re not even close to dominating.
I don’t see feminists grabbing the first post on Open Mike each morning. Nor using TS to link to their own blogs and up their traffic. Nor doing the rounds of other blogs slagging off TS. Nor posting massive amounts of inanities that have people pulling their hair our. Nor do I see long lines of people resorting to using 🙄 instead of an answer to a comment.
The rape issues aside, there isn’t that much discussion about women’s rights here and I don’t see much protest about talking about women’s rights on TS either. We’re not even close to dominating.
The few explicitly-feminist posts there have been on TS (disclaimer: often written by me) tend to attract a huge number of comments, but yeah. It’s hardly like there’s even one definitively-feminist-issue-related post a week around here, unless we start assuming everything welfare/poverty/child abuse-related is only a feminist issue.
What I personally love is how after Morrissey spent something like a week getting the first post on Open Mike every single day to put forward more defences of Assange, suddenly prism’s problem is that it’s the evil feminists who are trying to dominate the conversation.
That makes me glad I’ve been otherwise too busy/tired to bother with the open mike for the last couple of weeks…
What I personally love is how after Morrissey spent something like a week getting the first post on Open Mike every single day to put forward more defences of Assange, suddenly prism’s problem is that it’s the evil feminists who are trying to dominate the conversation.
But who can’t self-examine themselves or their sisters and perhaps their own provocative behaviour, or even agree that women can act provocatively and unreasonably. And can’t agree that the world can be unsafe and individuals should be cognisant and take some responsibility for themselves.
It’s very simple, FUCK YOU.
What you’re doing is here is blaming the victim for the behaviour of the attacker, who, under the law is solely responsible for their own actions (unless significant mental illness etc gets in the way…), and should know far fucking better. And you know what else victim blaming does? It makes victims lives even more of a struggle, it can lead to significant depressive episodes or worse, significant social isolation and overall reduces reportage of serious crimes to the police. Like rape.
If you can’t or wont understand the above, fuck off to the sewer where this sort of bullshit is oft praised and you can totes pat yourself on the back for pushing “responsibility”.
here seems to be a group who comment here putting women’s rights above everything else. Aren’t there other blogs who specialise in supporting women who want to complain and talk about victimisation?
/facepalm
The stupid, it burns.
Aww, cupcake, is your privileged little white dude world getting all perturbed by the rather real human rights issues feminists bring up? Awww, poor snookums, you better go listen to the froth of shit that is talk-back radio then to try and hide the problems the part of the population that isn’t white dudes has to deal with daily. While the rest of us who don’t turn a blind eye get on with kicking the patriarchy firmly in the groin and the daily cluebatting of ignorant, privileged, twits like you.
Two things NickS:
* whilst the victim is never responsible for the behavior of the offender it is incumbent to be aware of the danger, and certain men are worth taking a very wide berth of. I think that was Prisms point, sort of like dont go to Compton and dance in the street without being aware that the Cryps might mug you, the world can be a bad place so be aware. Sad but true. Again no excuses for perpetrators.
*Tagging Prism cupcake etc, I see him regularly kicking the patriarchy firmly in the groin and you go kicking him for being a priveleged white dude. How to win friends and influence people. Really clever, not.
If prism had meant to say that, he shouldn’t have said what he said, and even then, in the context of where and how rapes happen, the horror is that the predominately aren’t done by someone completely unknown to the victim. Often it’s a family, a friend, or someone within their social circle, and the warning signals aren’t always that straightforward to pick up, and more worryingly little is often done by those in a position to intervene, for a variety of crap reasons.
As for attacking prism, guess what? Shitty victim blaming etc still makes you a douchebag no matter how much “good” you’ve done.
Nick S 14.5
Yours is just the sweeping despotic prejudiced reaction that I am talking about. Cripes I have never done anything bad enough to earn this sort of shit. You are one smug superior know-all thinking you can abuse someone because by merely defending the victims you are earning brownie points and there are no holds barred. And I thought you were a scientific type, or perhaps that was another Nick.
You are one smug superior know-all thinking you can abuse someone because by merely defending the victims you are earning brownie points and there are no holds barred.
Or it could be, that after months of watching otherwise intelligent individuals in the atheist community completely fail at basic scepticism vs feminism and it’s aims, along with denying harassment is an issue or engage in victim blaming vis harassment and supporting the harassers I no longer have _any_ tolerance for such shit.
From anyone.
Irrespective of who the fuck they are.
And the fact you assume that I’m doing it for “brownie points” is frankly fucking pathetic.
I’m not doing this for “kudos”, I’m doing this to rip into your bullshit for the shear fucking self satisfaction of the act, for forcing you to confront the bitter truth that you’re putting forth pure bullshit.
I’m doing this to rip into your bullshit for the shear fucking self satisfaction of the act
Which is why Nick, life must be so very hard for you what with an attitude like that. I suspect a real life meeting with you would reveal a somewhat toned down arrogance, but arrogance none the less (hiding some other holes in the “armour”), which must really contribute heavily to your self professed depression!
Thanks Muzza, said it for me. Seemed rather like listening to Comrade Prosecutor at a Soviet show trial, somewhat psychotic. Like the rest of the arguments it gave me some insight into what Orwell went through with his “allies” in Spain. Who needs enemies with friends like this?
Yeah, I find Nick’s post pretty over the top in style, at the same time as agreeing largely with the substance.
So, if you have a problem with Nick’s anger, then be honest about that. This kind of attempt at pathologising someone’s argument is poor debate:
“Seemed rather like listening to Comrade Prosecutor at a Soviet show trial, somewhat psychotic. Like the rest of the arguments it gave me some insight into what Orwell went through with his “allies” in Spain.”
There have been similar, lesser attempts throughout this whole discussion on rape. The subtle attempts to pathologise people talking about rape says more about the discomfit some people are feeling on the topic than anything.
And once more muzza proceeds to unintentionally be highly ironic.
Simply by doing what they claim I’m doing. Oh and in case you haven’t learnt it yet, there’s a very big difference between anger and arrogance.
And I so <3 totes your attempts at armchair psychology, which show you really don't gork depression (which is probably a good thing, since it requires training or actually having had it) and are attempting to arrogantly impose your own ignorant assumptions /smugface
1) you made a claim about my depression which doesn’t match teh evidence*
2) for which the phrase “ignorant assumption” describes well
3) instead then of actually explaining why your assumption wasn’t ignorant, you then proceed to call me “arrogant”
[insert sarcastic clapping here]
___________________________
* I know pretty much why I’m depressed (suicidal episodes do have their slight sliver linings…), and it sure as hell has nothing to do with arrogance.
Oh, poor Bored. It must be so terrible, not being able to fling around contemptuous comments about people with “identities” without other people criticising you. Life is fuckin’ tough, ain’t it?
Jim Mora announcing his menu for today – ‘Do we need to send a delegation to Rio to find out about climate change?’ Not, I wonder what our delegation will tell us about the latest results on climate change.
Does Sanitarium pay taxes or are they excused because they are a charitable organisation?
Certainly they are using our legal system to assert copyright law and get an injunction against someone with a similar product. Is that what is called parallel importing?
how is it that kweewee can give to the rich but not those in need.
poor people dont eat money.
they use it to buy food.
and not as a tool to fuck with the bank managers head when they haven’t got anything else to do.
another broken election promise.
Nick Smith and Stephen Joyce both criticised Labours policy of raising fuel taxes 2008.
Saying it would damage the economy: yeah right!
Far easier to tax everyone a little frequently, even if it is regressive by nature. So if we should revert back to 70’s Aussie muscle cars will the exercise tax be reduced?
I hope that MRP IPO gets underway soon as there is just over 700 days to fulfill the Nats election platform.
I hope that Lab will have a progressive and forward thinking platform instead of what normally happens with an election win by default.
Yes, after all, why would Key want to waste his time fronting up to “dopey” questions about poverty, when He could be cheer-leading his niece’s educational niche skill?
And much better to have Brownlee confirming Key’s contradictory beliefs. Whose gonna really challenge such a big man, and with Dunne immediatley providing cover following Shearer’s question?
David Shearer: Which statement does he stand by: “we have a very targeted system through Working for Families.” or that Working for Families is “communism by stealth … It didn’t work very well for Eastern Europe and it won’t work very well for New Zealand.”?
The Prime Minister is ruling out a universal child payment recommended in a Children’s Commission report on child poverty.
John Key says New Zealand went away from that system some years ago and now has targeted assistance for families.
“We have a very targeted system through Working for Families,” he said. The Prime Minister described the idea of giving a payment to all parents, including the well-off, as “dopey”.
Though Shearer wasn’t quick enough on his feet to expose Key’s hypocrisy.
+1 from me too. Have had to give up watching the TV news. The Beast of Blenheim. It sounds like we’ve stepped back into the medieval ages when the strong women weka was talking about earlier were being burnt at the stake for being witches.
Edit: no disrespect to his victims. I just find the on-going obsession with him symptomatic of a juvenile media.
yeah, the news media should do like one of the suggestions coming out of Whanganui: just shun the evil little fucker. Don’t even acknowledge his existence.
With you on this one, Vicky32. Spent most of the day in the river city and to be fair, it wasn’t uppermost on the minds of the people I was talking to, they just wanted to know if they still had a job. Sadly for 3 dozen of them, the answer was no. Brighter future, anyone?
However, Wilson did come up a couple of times. I was talking to a journo mate and she made me laugh when she referred to her shift waiting for Wilson to twitch the curtains this morning as being on ‘beast watch’. And Tariana Turia’s new nickname is 668 … the neighbour of the beast, ho ho.
And Tariana Turia’s new nickname is 668 … the neighbour of the beast, ho ho
Although that is somewhat clever… However, it’s juvenile nimbyism! What do they want him to do, kill himself? I’ve been listening to people commenting on Clive – redneck morons… (sorry, whoever hates that word – I can’t think of anything else right now – too tired! 🙂 )
Yep, redneck alright, but nice to hear the farmer putting the boot into the Nats and Turia. And the gormless local MP, Chester Borrows. (I say local, but Wanganui votes Labour, it’s just that the rest of the seat is rural Taranaki, where Borrows lives).
John Key talking down one of our major business partners and with whom we have a world first? trade agreement – China, which he said is ‘growing tentacles’ around the world. Sounds rude and hostile to me. Is he trying to suck up to Hillary Clinton who is making a jetstop visit to the Pacific Forum, so that country can continue spreading its hegemony and getting its tentacles into the Pacific?
Yeah but you gotta remember, to a sick slimy scaly fuck like Key, “growing tentacles around the world” doesn’t really have negative connotations.
He would have said it with admiration, and he wouldn’t have had any inkling that it could be taken any other way until it was pointed out to him by his people.
And even then he just has to take their word for it and file the info away for future reference because he still won’t really understand why that’s not a nice thing to say.
John Key talking down one of our major business partners and with whom we have a world first? trade agreement – China, which he said is ‘growing tentacles’ around the world
He is preparing for his future meeting with Russia,and the RNZFTA,
The statements coming out of Russia is that the expansion of the PRC is destabilizing, both the pacific and Asia,and the unstable growth of the PRC has further destabilized the global trading patterns,
Just visited the “War Remnants Museum” in Ho Chi Minh City. It documents the awful cost to the civilian population and the unrelenting violent and cruel tactics exercised by the USA military machine. Couldn’t help thinking as I walked, that you could just replace the wordVietnam, with Iraq and now Afghanistan and get the same effect. Bigger and bigger weapons, stealth bombers, and civilians the losers whilst the politicians stay safely behind flags and rhetoric.
Isn’t war a disaster especially when not in self defense? Very sad.
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Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s newly announced review of methane emissions reduction targets hints at its desire to delay Aotearoa New Zealand’s urgent transition to a climate safe future, the Green Party said. ...
The Government must commit to the Maitai School building project for students with high and complex needs, to ensure disabled students from the top of the South Island have somewhere to learn. ...
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey and his Government colleagues have made a meal of their mental health commitments, showing how flimsy their efforts to champion the issue truly are, says Labour Mental Health spokesperson Ingrid Leary. ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector. "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
Changes to the Resource Management Act will align consenting for coal mining to other forms of mining to reduce barriers that are holding back economic development, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The inconsistent treatment of coal mining compared with other extractive activities is burdensome red tape that fails to acknowledge ...
Trade, Agriculture and Forestry Minister Todd McClay has concluded productive discussions with ministerial counterparts in Beijing today, in support of the New Zealand-China trade and economic relationship. “My meeting with Commerce Minister Wang Wentao reaffirmed the complementary nature of the bilateral trade relationship, with our Free Trade Agreement at its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Simon Wilmot, Senior Lecturer, Film, Deakin University Among the many Australian who served during the second world war, there is a small group of people whose stories remain largely untold. These are the Muslim men and women who, while small in number, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kelly Saunders, PhD Candidate, University of Canberra There has been much analysis and praise of Justice Michael Lee’s recent judgement in Bruce Lehrmann’s defamation case against Channel Ten. Many people were openly relieved to read Lee’s “forensic” and “nuanced” application of law ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kathy Gibbs, Program Director for the Bachelor of Education, Griffith University zEdward_Indy/Shutterstock Around one in 20 people has attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). It’s one of the most common neurodevelopmental disorders in childhood and often continues into adulthood. ADHD is diagnosed ...
The Fairer Future coalition of anti-poverty groups say Whaikaha must be properly funded going forward, and that to argue that poor financial management of the new Ministry is a red herring by the Prime Minister. ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is today congratulating Hon. Paul Goldsmith on his appointment as Minister for Media and Communications and urges him to rule out state intervention in the private media sector. ...
Asia Pacific Report The West Papuan resistance OPM leader has condemned Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and US President Joe Biden, accusing their countries of “six decades of treachery” over Papuan independence. The open letter was released today by OPM chairman Jeffrey P Bomanak on the eve of ANZAC Day ...
Welcome to The Spinoff Books Confessional, in which we get to know the reading habits and quirks of New Zealanders at large. This week: writer and one of Time Magazine’s 100 most influential people of 2024, Lauren Groff.The book I wish I’d writtenIf I wish I’d written a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Fechner, Research Fellow, Social Marketing, Griffith University mavo/Shutterstock Imagine having dinner at a restaurant. The menu offers plant-based meat alternatives made mostly from vegetables, mushrooms, legumes and wheat that mimic meat in taste, texture and smell. Despite being given that ...
“Three Strikes is a dead-end policy proposed by a dead-end government. The Three Strikes law ignores the causes of crime, instead just brutalising people already crushed by the cost of living.” ...
By Don Wiseman, RNZ Pacific senior journalist An Australian-born judge in Kiribati could well face deportation later this week after a tribunal ruling that he should be removed from his post. The tribunal’s report has just been tabled in the Kiribati Parliament and is due to be debated by MPs ...
With its clear mandate for police use, political nuances, and nuanced public trust, Denmark's insights provide valuable considerations for Australia and New Zealand. ...
Books editor Claire Mabey reviews poet Louise Wallace’s debut novel. A famous poet once said to me that he’s always suspicious when a poet publishes a novel. I never really understood why but maybe it’s something to do with cheating on your first form. Louise Wallace is a poet. She’s ...
For a few months at the turn of the millennium, TrueBliss burned bright as the biggest pop stars in the country. Alex Casey chats to two superfans who still hold the flame. During a humble backyard wedding in Nelson, 1999, one of the cordially invited guests had to excuse themselves ...
How will the recent wave of job cuts impact ethnic diversity in the media? In November last year, I was working a very busy day in the newsroom of a large online news site, interviewing whānau about their concerns over the imminent closure of one of the few puna reo ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ruth Knight, Researcher, Queensland University of Technology Have you ever felt sick at work? Perhaps you had food poisoning or the flu. Your belly hurt, or you felt tired, making it hard to concentrate and be productive. How likely would you be ...
Despite heavy criticism and an ongoing select committee process, the Police Minister says the Government will forge ahead with a ban on gang patches. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sam Whiting, Lecturer – Creative Industries, University of South Australia Shutterstock Everyone has a favourite band, or a favourite composer, or a favourite song. There is some music which speaks to you, deeply; and other music which might be the current ...
A new survey says ‘outlook not great’ for those charged with building infrastructure, while RMA changes delight farmers and depress environmentalists, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. First RMA changes announced ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Olli Hellmann, Associate Professor of Political Science, University of Waikato Getty Images When New Zealanders commemorate Anzac Day on April 25, it’s not only to honour the soldiers who lost their lives in World War I and subsequent conflicts, but also ...
A leaked document shows the Canterbury/Waitaha arm of health agency Te Whatu Ora is scurrying to save $13.3 million by July. The “financial sustainability target”, which was “allocated” to Waitaha, is consistent with what’s happening in other districts, says Sarah Dalton, executive director of the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists. ...
A look at the state of the previous government’s affordable housing scheme, and what could come next.Remind me: What’s KiwiBuild again?First announced in 2012, KiwiBuild was a flagship policy of the Labour Party heading into both its 2014 and 2017 election campaigns. With Jacinda Ardern as prime minister, ...
Labour in opposition will be shocked to learn which party had six years in power but squandered any chance to make real change. Grant Robertson’s valedictory speech was a predictably entertaining trip down memory lane. The acid-tongued incoming Otago University chancellor administered a sick burn to the coalition government. He ...
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The following interview with former Green Party MP Sue Kedgley came about because she features in the new memoir Hine Toa by activist Ngāhuia te Awekōtuku; the two knew each other at the University of Auckland in the early 70s, when they were both took on leadership roles in the ...
Taiwan’s semiconductor industry is seen some as its ‘silicon shield’ against invasion – but how will overseas expansion affect that protection? The post The state of Taiwan’s silicon shield appeared first on Newsroom. ...
There’s relief for building owners bending under the weight of earthquake strengthening rules – and costs – that came into force seven years ago. Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk has announced a scheduled 2027 review of the earthquake-prone building regulations will now start this year. Owners will also get ...
Opinion: It has been announced that nine percent of roles at Oranga Tamariki will be disestablished, presumably to help fund the tax cuts promised by the coalition Government. I am reminded of the graphics used to illustrate pandemic events, where five thousand people are standing in a field and then ...
After more than two sleepless days, running through savage terrain, Greig Hamilton didn’t know if he was going to finish one of the most gruelling psychological assaults in sport. He was metres away from the finish line, a yellow gate made famous in a Netflix documentary; a race he’d dreamed ...
COMMENTARY:By Murray Horton New Zealand needs to get tough with Israel. It’s not as if we haven’t done so before. When NZ authorities busted a Mossad operation in Auckland 20 years ago, the government didn’t say: “Oh well, Israel has the right to defend itself.” No, it arrested, prosecuted, ...
NEWSMAKERS:By Vijay Narayan, news director of FijiVillage Blessed to be part of the University of Fiji (UniFiji) faculty to continue to teach and mentor those who want to join our noble profession, and to stand for truth and justice for the people of the country. I was privileged to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Martin, Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University Three weeks from now, some of us will be presented with a mountain of budget papers, and just about all of us will get to hear about them on radio, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dan Lowry, Ice Sheet & Climate Modeller, GNS Science Hugh Chittock/Antarctica New Zealand, CC BY-SA As the climate warms and Antarctica’s glaciers and ice sheets melt, the resulting rise in sea level has the potential to displace hundreds of millions of ...
The government's plan to reintroduce a three strikes regime is being strongly opposed by lawyers, who argue there is no evidence it reduces crime or helps people rehabilitate. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dan Jerker B. Svantesson, Professor specialising in Internet law, Bond University Do Australian courts have the right to decide what foreign citizens, located overseas, view online on a foreign-owned platform? Anyone inclined to answer “yes” to this question should perhaps also ask ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Giovanni E Ferreira, NHMRC Emerging Leader Research Fellow, Institute of Musculoskeletal Health, University of Sydney Last week in a post on X, owner of the platform Elon Musk recommended people look into disc replacement if they’re experiencing severe neck or back pain. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Hayward, Emeritus Professor of Public Policy, RMIT University anek.soowannaphoom/Shutterstock NSW Treasurer Daniel Mookhey caught the headlines yesterday, courtesy of a blistering speech condemning the latest GST carve-up. New South Wales, he claimed, would be A$11.9 billion worse off over the ...
While police are "broadly in favour", the government's proposed anti-gang laws are facing pushback from lawyers, rights groups and former gang members. ...
While police are "broadly in favour", the government's proposed anti-gang laws are facing pushback from lawyers, rights groups and former gang members. ...
By Miriam Zarriga in Port Moresby Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has arrived at Kokoda Station, Northern province, at the start of his state visit to Papua New Guinea. Both Albanese and Prime Minister James Marape will meet with the locals and the Northern Provincial government before they begin their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Chris Wallace, Professor, School of Politics Economics & Society, Faculty of Business Government & Law, University of Canberra Shutterstock An important principle was invoked by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese last week in defence of the government’s Future Made in Australia industry ...
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk Security forces reinforcements were sent from France ahead of two rival marches in the capital Nouméa today, at the same time and only two streets away one from the other. One march, called by Union Calédonienne party (a component of the ...
A poll last August found that just 16% of New Zealanders oppose bringing back the ‘Three Strikes’ law. The nationwide poll of 1,000 New Zealanders was commissioned by Family First NZ and carried out by Curia Market Research. ...
The solo show from Ana Scotney is both sprawling and intimate, and a must-see, writes Mad Chapman. In the opening moments of Scattergun: After the Death of Rūaumoko, writer and performer Ana Scotney lays out the groundwork, literally. Silently moving around the square stage, Scotney is not so much dancing ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Burridge, Professor of Linguistics, Monash University Who makes the words? Why are trees called trees and why are shoes called shoes and who makes the names? – Elliot, age 5, Eltham, Victoria Good question Elliot! Let’s start with ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne at amRawpixel.com/Shutterstock Roles of health professionals are still unfortunately often stuck in the past. That is, before the ...
COMMENTARY:By Malcolm Evans Last week’s leaked New York Times staff directive, as to what words can and cannot be used to describe the carnage Israel is raining on Palestinians, is proof positive, since those reports are published verbatim here in New Zealand, that our understanding of the conflict is ...
In the case of New Zealand, the results confirm that there is no popular support for the vicious austerity program being imposed by the National Party-led government, which is backed in all fundamental respects by the opposition Labour Party. ...
The ‘Vampire’ singer has never visited our part of the world, but that might all be about to change. We assess the evidence.Olivia Rodrigo’s Guts World Tour is pulling in massive crowds as it whips around the US and Europe, even helping to catapult regular supporting act Chappell Roan ...
Testing of drinking water in rural Canterbury over the weekend by Greenpeace revealed that several public town supplies were reaching levels of nitrate above 5 mg/L - the threshold which a growing body of scientific evidence has linked to increased ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rohan Fisher, Information Technology for Development Researcher, Charles Darwin University It may come as a surprise to hear 2023 was Australia’s biggest bushfire season in more than a decade. Fires burned across an area eight times as big as the 2019–20 Black ...
Responding to the Government’s announcement of changes to resource management laws, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director, Jordan Williams, said: “These changes are a step in the right direction in terms of removing ideological and unworkable ...
More than two years after the Human Rights Council called for the establishment of a national human rights commission, such a body has yet to be formed. ...
Comment:An emergency management system with wide variations in performance, significant capability gaps, funding shortfalls and above all a setup that is not meeting the needs of New Zealanders at times of crisis. The Government’s inquiry into the response to Cyclone Gabrielle and other severe weather events in the North ...
Welcome to the whirring wonders of one brain trying to align its actions with its beliefs within a system it thinks is evil. My brain has been spiralling in a woke conundrum ever since I found out a bookshop I’ve never been to was shutting down. Good Books, a bookshop ...
We repeat our call for criminal justice policy to be based on evidence, something the three strikes regime neglects to recognise – with no evidence that it either reduces crime or assists with rehabilitation. ...
By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor in Honiara With only four more seats in the 50-member Parliament yet to be officially declared, there is no outright winner in the Solomon Islands elections. As of Monday, the two largest blocs in the winner’s circle, independents and the incumbent Prime Minister Manasseh ...
When is Paula going to announce drug testing for corporate execs or the rest of us?
Or breath testing for MPs before passing legislation.
I’d be happy for John to do a Muldoon and call a snap election after a few whiskeys.
Lets see drug testing of lawyers and doctors.
shit no – I’d rather my doctor be hopped up in ED than working 80+ weeks without chemical assistance.
Someone is having his cake and eating it…
‘Another Labour MP, Damien O’Connor, broke ranks with most of his caucus colleagues yesterday, suggesting Parliament should be focused on “far bigger issues” – and ACT leader John Banks made a U-turn on historical anti-gay comments to back the bill.
Other MPs ducked for cover, refusing any comment on how they would vote.
“We need to uphold marriage as a structure, as a construct around family life as a best intent,” Mr O’Connor said.’
http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7566858/Lobbyists-gather-before-marriage-vote
Facetious remark about how we should be worried about ‘bigger stuff’. Check. Remark that straight people should be the only ones who can marry. Check.
Gay people have families too and we’re just as affected by life. Possibly more affected since, you know, we don’t have equal rights. And will you run that ‘bigger issues’ test over everything you want to do? Thought not.
I wonder when the West Coast is gong to decide they don’t want to be represented by an asshole.
You might want to look at OConnors electorate and its people: they are those old socially conservative working Kiwis, he represents them well. The arrogance of the rest of the liberal left is that they tell these people how to think (as opposed to persuading them). And they are more interested in jobs than gay marriage, they call it priorities.
Arrogance? Does that include Damien O’Connor’s daughter, too?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/7454234/MP-and-daughter-split-over-gay-marriage
And, this is indicative of the shift towards support of marriage and sexual equality by younger generations. And here we see a glimmer of evidence that this shift is occurring even amongst young people born and bred on the West Coast.
Lets just hope that the gay marriage bill gets passed, then we can have the rainbow faction of the Labour party get on and represent people with “musts” (such as jobs, food, housing) as opposed to “nice to haves”. I fekkin sick of factional interest groups who have “identities” hijacking the agenda away from those in real need.
Really? I am a lesbian who will continue to speak out for sexual inequalities, and gender inequalities whenever there is a need.
Do you see me spending more time on these issues than those of income/wealth inequalities, racial/ethnic inequalities etc?
When I see comments like yours, Bored, it just feels like a continuation of the prejudices I’ve been dealing with most of my life – telling us to shut up and not mention damaging discrimination. Others (especially white males) are always more important.
Fortunately such prejudices have eased in recent years. Unfortunately they haven’t totally disappeared.
You may feel however you feel about what I said: my life experience has been one of long support for all persuasions, I have many times been arrested protesting for minority positions. Personally I don’t care if you are lesbian, martian, straight, what fekkin ever, I will come out in favour of your right to do anything which has no impact on another person. So don’t sit high and mighty just because you happen to declare you are a lesbian.
My entire point is that I am hopping mad at factional interests groups placing priority on themselves first as opposed to those in real need. We can pass gay marriage etc in the background (and we should), children coming to school hungry is far more top of my priority.
“We can pass gay marriage etc in the background (and we should), children coming to school hungry is far more top of my priority.”
Well Labour has had several member’s bills drawn that would help with children coming to school hungry that were voted down by the government. I’m not really sure what more you can expect them to achieve from opposition.
You can claim your egalitarian principles and activism all you want, Bored. But your final paragraph exposes an underlying belief/distortion. I am just sick of this BS line:
My entire point is that I am hopping mad at factional interests groups placing priority on themselves first as opposed to those in real need. We can pass gay marriage etc in the background (and we should), children coming to school hungry is far more top of my priority.
I’ve tried to argue it carefully many times and still people keep peddling it. If you want it to pass, why protest about it and take a slam at those of us in “identity” categories? It’s a very grudging way of saying “you can have your marriage bill.”
I see NO evidence that we are prioritising marriage equality over poverty, hunger, etc.
We can do more than one thing at once. And I do spend more time on issues of poverty, education etc.
And I don’t even see marriage equality getting more attention in the MSM at the moment than asset sales, poverty etc.
The biggest distractions in the MSM are celebrity “news”, crime stories, PM dance videos, etc. And if marriage equality was such a distraction, why did Paula Benefit and her boss feel such a need to re-hash the drug testing of beneficiaries story, to distract from the Children’s Commissioner report?
Carol, as I said I hope to hell the bill passes (because in my “simple” world view this should not be a sectoral political issue per se, to me its basic rights of a citizen, which is why I am very much pro). I also get hopping mad when I get accused of being “against” interest groups because I happen to propose that we have bigger and more immediate fish to fry. Perhaps I am a grumpy white middle aged male who gets a little sick of being wrong to have any opinion because I am not female / gay / ethnic etc etc. At a gut level it feels to me like a lot of take and no give.
Coming back to OConnor at the start of the thread. There is a delicious historic irony in this for Labour: the party was born on the West Coast in the mining community, and their current MP seems to reflect the blue collar social conservatism of the area. A century later the party has morphed into a middle class dominated group of sectoral interests, whilst the socio – economic reasons for the birth of the party are returning rapidly. My original grumpy position was, “Are these conditions top priority for Labour?”
Bored, agree on the middle-class focus of the current Labour Party, not on the “sectoral interests” bit:
Get used to the fact that the left is no longer dominated by heterosexual white men…. fortunately, and hopefully won’t ever return to that. For too long they were above criticism by the rest of us. It was a long struggle for women, Maori, Pasifika, Asians and LGBT people to gain acceptance and a voice in the left.
So now white heterosexual men come in for some criticism. Get used to it. Those of us who don’t fit into that, still-dominant, demographic also still get constantly attacked, sneered at, smeared and undermined. And I think blaming Labour’s ills on so-called “sectoral interests” is part of that. Where is the evidence for this? Their leader is a white heterosexual male. The most dominant people in the senior ranks are Robertson (yes gay, but also white and middleclass – he promotes middleclass values more than LGBT interests), Parker, Mallard. The main contender to oust Shearer is Cunliffe (white, heterosexual, middleclass, male).
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/6162182/Labours-new-energised-party-line-up
It is good to see more diversity in Labour’s ranks than used to be. The Labour problem, to me, is that they have assimilated too much middleclass-oriented, neoliberal claptrap. And in the line-up, if anything, the main problem is the dominance of white middleclass people pandering to the MSM support of the middle-classes. There is far less pandering to “identity groups”, which are being scapegoated for Labour Party failings to engage more of the lower-socio-economic strugglers.
I think what we have established Carol is that white middle aged males are used to criticism, and that we should get used to more of it for past and current sins: so going forward what would you suggest? Do I sit back and take it, have no opinion because I am what I am?
Bored @12.08pm
We are all not just totally some generalised demographic, and not answerable for everything done by others in that demographic.
I also am white and middle-class, and just try to listen to criticisms of those demographics and try to learn from them.
None of us are perfect.
I was mostly responding to a common line that has been perpetuated blaming identity politics (especially LGBT and Māori people, and sometimes women/feminists) for the rightward moves of the Labour Party – that doesn’t match with the evidence I have seen, and undermines the struggles of those groups.
+1
Best solution is to recognise white men as a sectional interest.
Bored, you’re welcome to your view.
The question is though, is the ability to consider oneself a part of society a must?
You say basic need is purely food in mouths, shelter from rain etc, and then include jobs, which in NZ means a positive social identity as a “tax payer”. Those of an orientation other than heterosexual will always have a stumbling block (Gee, that’s too nice a way of saying it)… will always be oppressed at a point where others can naturally see no hurdles. If we use Maslow’s Hierachy of Need, a simple format, we see that equality and social belonging is 2nd or 3rd tier, barely halfway, while everyone else is franticly pushing for self actualisation – frequently percieved as a right in many circles.
The Labour Party once stood for everyone starting from the same point of having the basics. The emotional, physical and spiritual stress of knowing you are barely tolerated or sometimes actively despised, is not a starting place of equality for open participation in any system. I would not be so hasty to accept the idea that Labour or anyone else can supply a future anywhere near to egalitarian principles while they refuse to examine the importance of foundational issues. Sure, they can grudgingly give assent; justifying it as an irritation that distracts from more important concerns; but in doing so they demonstrate a mindset without understanding the why, that will stumble and turn at the soonest convenience.
Uturn, my welcome view seems unwelcome: yours however I am very much in alignment with. Perhaps the heart of my discontent is that my intuition tells me that Labour don’t have the priorities they once stood for. And maybe I have not groomed a sacred cow.
factional interest groups who have “identities”
Yeah, fuck them. If they just chose to be heterosexual able-bodies white cis men they wouldn’t be suffering any discrimination in the first place!
“cis”?
The definition escapes my comprehension…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
ahhh. Cheers.
Draco beat me to it, but yeah. Derived from scientific terminology i.e. opposite of “trans”.
Amen
Seconded, thirded and fourthed! 🙂
“You might want to look at OConnors electorate and its people: they are those old socially conservative working Kiwis, he represents them well.”
Are they really? Has there been any polling on their thoughts?
The only poll that I have seen on gay marriage gives some interesting stats…South Islanders are more in favour of gay marriage than the lower/central North Island, or upper North Island. This is different from what we are often told about rural/S.I. conservatives. I always felt that the West Coast leans more towards libertarian values, rather than conservative ones.
http://www.researchnz.com/pdf/Media%20Releases/RNZ%20Media%20Release%20-%202011-07-12%20Same%20sex%20marriages.pdf
I wonder if Damien O’Connor has bothered to find out how his electorate think, or is just pandering to the prejudice held among many liberals that working class people are homophobic? My own experiences have been that in working class and remote communities, people are accepted or not for reasons other than their sexual orientation.
Good to know that people still think the State should kick down the bedroom doors of consenting adults..
Yes where the hell is the constant barrage over asset sales, privacy breaches and the openly corrupt 2 fingered salute this gov’t is giving to everyone but the wealthy and corporate mates.
Labour is headed toward minor party status under the mallarfia and the chats I have with folk show an unwillingness to persist with them in 2014.
They haven’t cleaned out, they haven’t learned from their mistakes. It’s like watching a badly run business with a bunch of old farts driving it into the dust.
Gay marriage will create jobs through increased tourism and stimulus to the wedding industry. Convinced yet?
Maybe thats Key’s plan to ressurect the tourism industry, you know to replace all those cycle way jobs!
I think your bias might be getting in the way of rational thinking Tigger!
Yes where the hell is the constant barrage over asset sales, privacy breaches and the openly corrupt 2 fingered salute this gov’t is giving to everyone but the wealthy and corporate mates.
Have you been paying attention?
Labour (and other opposition parties) HAVE kept up a constant barrage – especially on poverty issues in the last few days. They don’t necessarily get cut-through to the MSM on this, but that is either the fault of the MSM or of Labour for poor strategies.
Look at the list of recent Labour Party press releases. See any focus on marriage equality over issues of poverty, education, employment, etc?
http://www.labour.org.nz/news
And look at the questions raised in the House. There’s been quite a few primaries and supplementaries questioning the truth of slippery John’s statements:
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Business/QOA/2/f/3/00HOH_OralQuestions-List-of-questions-for-oral-answer.htm
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Business/QOA/
Labour can improve its strategies, and could be putting out a more consistent and more left wing narrative, in my opinion. But I see no evidence that marriage equality is the main topic of their focus.
I use the MSM, and talk to folk who don’t use this or the labour party, parliamentary and other purely political sources as that’s where the elections are won and lost.
Thanks for the references but no-one out there that needs to be convinced to vote or change their vote is taking notice of those releases.
It’s that thinking that will consign Labour to becoming a minor party.
If a tree falls in the woods and no-one’s listening etc etc play the MSM game or perish.
I agree that opposition parties needs to find ways to engage with more voters, or potential voters.
However, I have some misgivings about a “play the MSM game” approach. This is what Labour/Labor parties have done in English-language countries throughout the “neoliberal”. period since the 80s This has resulted in Blairite 3rd ways and the parties moving to the right.
The left needs strategies that change the game and set a new agenda. It’s a hard task.
But, also, credit where it’s due. People here have been asking for quicker responses from the Labour Party & Shearer, and to counter the Key/NAct spin and damaging policies. Labour & Shearer looks to have taken this on board and are more on the ball.
They still need to improve their strategies, but the state of our MSM does make it a hard task.
“I use the MSM, and talk to folk who don’t use this or the labour party, parliamentary and other purely political sources as that’s where the elections are won and lost.”
TC is right and makes a good point…votes are won and lost in a 10 second sound-bite on the 6pm news. National have been owning Labour since Key came in.
Firstly Labour needs a leader that doesn’t say ‘um’ 4 times in every sentence, then they need to keep hammering their strategy. (maybe get a strategy first)
“The left needs strategies that change the game and set a new agenda. It’s a hard task.”
True, but that (and owning the 10 sec MSM sound-bite) can be done by having Cunliffe as leader…I know its been said a thousand times here, but it looks like it needs to be said another thousand times.
True, but that (and owning the 10 sec MSM sound-bite) can be done by having Cunliffe as leader…I know its been said a thousand times here, but it looks like it needs to be said another thousand times.
I am more for Cunliffe than Shearer as leader for his media performances, but also his policy direction. However, I’m not sure he will provide a complete game-changer: more a change of direction away from neoliberal/neocon dominance. I very much welcome this as a start but not a destination.
A real nice list Carol. Sorry but there is NO MSM outlets there at all, so in fact yiu could say there has been very little coverage. because most people don’t see sites like these listed as they are not main stream sites.
It’s like Key calling Metiria Turei Dopey even gets very little coverage as if it had happened the other way the papers would be screaming it from the roof tops. The Herald never mentions the word dopey and stuff hides it at the bottom of the page
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10830148
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7566913/Key-rejects-report-as-working-poor-struggle
Piss poor reporting if you ask me…
David H, I listed them from the Labour Party site because it’s easier to get them from there as a list.
I have noticed lately that such articles on the Labour Party site are also simultaneously posted as press releases on Scoop, as can be seen with this search:
http://search.scoop.co.nz/search?q=Labour%20Party&sort_by=date
The MSM tends to pull some quotes out of these press releases, and I also often hear some sound clips related to them on RNZ.
I’m not sure how else a party can get comments into the media, other than from Press Releases, or some fairly elaborate appearance/stunt?
Of course, the quality of the press release is important too.
David H, perhaps the Herald article you provided the link to has been updated, but the very first sentence now reads
Prime Minister John Key has dismissed as “dopey” a recommendation from a panel of experts that a universal child payment should be reintroduced as a way of reducing child poverty.
RNZ National also covered Key’s dopey remarks in full this morning including replaying the exchanges between Key and Turei in Question Time in Parliament yesterday.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2529572/opposition-parties-accuse-mp-of-flippancy-over-poverty.asx
So there has been some coverage of Key’s flippant remarks etc.
That depends upon how you look at it and who you think the MSM is working for.
My boyfriend observed that the most likely reason for Bank’s changing his position on this is because of the vocal support from the ACToids on campus, who unlike him actually believe in all of that personal choice liberty stuff. Banks is supporting the bill to keep them happy, because they were his only real base of volunteers and supporters on his election campaign.
I love the way he’s prepared to sell his soul to preserve his political sinecure. Repeatedly.
It doesn’t matter if he makes the right choice about marriage equality, or the wrong choice about giving minute instructions to “anonymous” donors on how they can pay him – the fool will sell out each and every time. Worse than Winston.
So Key thinks that doing something about child poverty is dopey in that wealthy families will also enjoy the benefit of child payments.
Well I have a simple solution for him. Increase income tax rates for the wealthy. If they have children then they will get some of this back. But it also means that something can be done about poverty.
The only thing dopey is being Prime Minister and that intellectually and morally bankrupt that you cannot do something, anything, about child poverty. Apart from drug testing beneficiaries.
So where’s the stinging attacks from the opposition, if Labour want that uninterested third to get out and vote in 2014 they’ve got to put some venom into responding to such an arrogant and stupid comment.
Key’s just loving this pathetic opposition, a third term is beckoning if they can’t skewer him over such comments.
There’s quite a good humanised article on it up on Stuff right now. The Greens and Shearer have been quoted rejecting Key’s remarks. I do think Cunliffe could produce more “stinging” criticisms of Key. Shearer just doesn’t have much ooomph in that way.
But also I think the MSM are selective in how much of the opposition comments they report. The article begins with a report on a couple in limited and insecure employment struggling on low income:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7566913/Key-rejects-report-as-working-poor-struggle
‘ But also I think the MSM are selective in how much of the opposition comments they report.’ yes and have been since the run up to the 08 election.
So opposition need a strategy that counters this with short incisive catchy quotes (rhymes work well) repeated adnauseum by every single one of them so the MSM can’t cut it up.
Goff and Shearer are like those boring monotone uncles you avoid at family gatherings
Goff and Shearer are like those boring monotone uncles you avoid at family gatherings
On this, I tend to agree, tc. I can’t see me giving my party vote to a Shearer-led Labour Party. I could even overlook his lack of media presence if I thought he wasn’t so far to the right of Labour. Even Goff has more presence and is more articulate than him.
But I am pleased Labour have upped their game somewhat. Any improvement will be of benefit for a potentially “left”-coalition/support government.
The simplest and probably most effective is to simply bypass the MSM. Deliver newsletters direct to mailboxes every week with web links on them.
They changed that headline overnight..
This article is from the source ‘nytimes’ and was first published or seen on August 27, 2012 15:54 (UTC). The next check for changes will be August 28, 2012 20:40
News Sniffer – Keeping track of changing propaganda!
We believe that the USA is the major player against Syria and the rest are its instruments’
Excellent Muzza!
Haven’t been around for a while upsetting people but with spring approaching the sun coming out and so did my mischievousness. Here is my video of the day: <a href="You can't change the weather right? Well, they did in Vietnam!
Oh oops, You can’t change the weather right?
I have a question/request for any feminists out there:
I’ve just been reading about the release of Stewart Murray Wilson. The story says he was convicted of various crimes against women over a 21 year period. I’ve also been reading feminist blogs, some of which outline various basics from a feminist perspective. These have been very helpful in clearing up some of the ideas my brain has stumbled over. One such idea that I now accept is that women cannot protect themselves against rape/assault from men – it is completely the man’s choice to commit these acts and his responsibility.
The problem the story about S. Wilson raises for me though, is if there is a man who “cannot be reached”, rehabilitated, educated or reasoned with, then how will that man ever choose anything other than what he already does? If he never changes, and we accept women cannot protect themselves, then women will never be safe. Does this suggest that there is a strictly feminist view of correction, rehabilitation and justice. Does it necessarily include things like the death penalty and prevetative detention i.e. never letting people out of prison?
So my question is, from a feminist perspective, is there a certain ideology or system of justice or corrections that a feminist must adhere – theoretically speaking – in order to remain true to the idea women can’t protect themselves from sexual assault? Or is feminism a far more pragmatic process that deals with issues case by case, rather than setting up institutional systems based on the fear of what might or could happen?
I don’t think there is one feminist line on most things – much like the left, really.
I don’t think there is one feminist line on most things – much like the left, really.
Yeah. That is one of the reasons that I thought this site would be worth expending effort on. I’d noticed that the ‘left’ was getting a bit too silo’ed into their own talking groups and not listening enough to differing opinions within the very broad left or even the right.
I figured that having a on-line forum with a quite loose format* would help. Thus far I think it has. I think we have managed to irritate damn near everyone many times… Which rather means we’re doing what we intended.
* Essentially that boils down to “don’t bore the moderators too much”, “don’t do anything that will cause the site legal issues or overstep the moderators sense of justice” and “we aren’t giving out anyone’s information”.
Agreed.
If you are interested Uturn, I can dig out some links to feminism 101 sites which answer basic questions about feminism itself.
Any help appreciated.
I’ve been all over the finallyfeminism101 blog and associated links (thanks QOT for your helpful links), but haven’t found anything yet on how the basics connect to a wider picture, if there is such a picture.
Failing such a picture existing, I’m interested to hear how any feminist sees the question of justice.
For me personally, in the circumstances of our current society, I’m in favour of preventive detention for people who it’s established simply can’t be rehabilitated.
But I do know that there’s also arguments made by feminists (usually anarcho-feminists I think, if you want a handy label to google) against our entire current system of judicial punishment, including prisons. You could also debate to what extent the “urges” felt by some offenders to hurt women/children are affected by the society they’re living in.
Certainly I would say that one thing increasing the risk towards women and other people from some rapists/abusers/murderers is the prejudices and assumptions we make about different offenders – if they’re a clean-cut pillar of the community like the BTK killer (white, church deacon) then people assume they can’t be involved in horrific acts, or consider how one of Dahmer’s victims was returned to his house by police because of bigoted beliefs about gay men.
In the case of Wilson, it was better put by LudditeJourno – the people of Whanganui need to understand that there are already rapists in their community, they’re just well-hidden, and our assumptions about what kind of people do those kinds of things are helping to hide them.
TLDR: is big question!
Uturn 6
I have always been interested in feminism. And women have been leaders in raising the issues of respect and justice to more than just women., to society.
Wilson should have been in preventative detention, and that is in prison grounds definitely. Past governments have been too right-wing, more concerned about theft and property than protection of the person and the rights to a safe and peaceful life by society, especially women and children who form the greatest numbers of victims of violence.
Also non-bullying systems in schools and educating parents on what to watch for, to prevent children starting on coercive habits that grows in a few to the skewed personality beyond redemption. The society should pick up feminist ideas and consider society being damaged and act early. At present the jail sentence is the useless and expensive punishment, which when served finishes the matter and the unrehabilitated man, the largest proportion of the genders, leaves to continue his damaging behaviour usually on a woman or women, children, animals, and anyone needy and vulnerable..
I think there will always be a warped few, but we can improve the influences when young
That few should be kept away from ordinary society, like lepers used to be. Lepers can be cured but I don’t believe Wilson and his ilk never will.
I think some feminists see it as the all-pervasive rape culture that is the problem, as argued here. As I understand it, the argument is that rapists can control their behaviour, that most rape goes un-reported because they are shielded from view by the rape culture. Rape is a crime of exercising power and control, not one of uncontrollable sexual urges. So the answer is to change the culture (and the power dynamics?).
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/11/01/charlotte-allen-missed-the-memo/
And in your possible ways of constraining convicted rapists, Uturn, you left out chemical castration, which is used in one or two countries.
I think some feminists see it as the all-pervasive rape culture that is the problem. As a male I find the concept of there being such an “all-pervasive” culture deeply disturbing. Having said that there is in my mind a pervasive culture of brutalisation of the individual in society in all sorts of everyday life events.
On constraining rapists, I am with Prism with regard to preventative detention to prevent their brutal actions: punishments such as imprisonment or castration appear to me to be more brutalisation, (the domain of Garth McVicars mob).
As a male I find the concept of there being such an “all-pervasive” culture deeply disturbing. Having said that there is in my mind a pervasive culture of brutalisation of the individual in society in all sorts of everyday life events.
I do think there is a lot of brutalisation within our culture. And that fits with the notion that rape is an act of power and control rather than a sexual act.
As a male I find the concept of there being such an “all-pervasive” culture deeply disturbing.
If you think it’s disturbing, imagining being in the 50% of the population actually targeted by it!
Rape Culture 101 for those with genuine interest.
Good read QOT, theres nothing there I disagree with. Context however to “all pervasive” is another issue again. As a male I am extremely aware of the violence and brutality that society inflicts on all members, male and female, by male and female. Rape is one extremely loathsome nasty form. Others abound, one wonders at our inhumanity.
Uturn, I’ve appreciated your thoughtful questions and comments today. Don’t have much to add re Wilson, except that I agree people who cannot change should be prevented physically from harming others. Beyond that I believe in concepts of restorative justice, but sadly we are a very long way from being able to consider that.
btw, some women can and do protect themselves from sexual assault. It’s just that not all women can all of the time. But even if they could, they deserve to be protected from having to.
Save me from news from the USA. Nothing but wars and circuses. All using lots of money that is not available to the employing part of the economy and people that the politicians and their puppet masters have impoverished. Mitt Romney for President from the Republicans. They should be called Replumbicans, get their u-beds cleaned.
And don’t call this guy Mittens give him Gloves and tell him to punch himself in the nose. In the meantime I have to turn off the news all the time. It seems that we are being suffocated as the USA presses us to its ‘kindly’ bosom.
Dopey PM is a disgrace!
With inequality increasing the fastest of all OECD countries, New Zealand now has 270,000 children living in poverty… That’s a quarter of all Kiwi kids growing up impoverished and in need. In a developed country with ample resources, this is a complete and utter disgrace!
General response to child poverty amongst sizable part of population, majority? – Orr who cares, that’s SEP. They are hopeless anyway, can’t do it properly (parents). Lazy sods. Waste of time trying to help them.
Drug test them too!
Bored
For sure. And cancel Family First at Waipereira arbitrarily – that will save money and it’s useless, anyway it was. One of the reports said so. I don’t know what it was trying to do actually as I haven’t read the report, that’s not my bag, but I’ve got Paula for that and why bark when you own a dog?
Poverty keeps wages low and profits high which is why capitalism requires poverty and is why no government has ever tried to eliminate it.
The ERO have scanned their reports on schools and summarised the three main findings.
1 Is the need to give more attention to individuals. Ha just when more demanding children are
being added to the mix and not enough help to integrate and support them. Also bigger classes.
2 To have a ‘rich’ curriculum. That’s rich. The findings from overseas that I’ve heard of indicate that with the rigidity of demands about satisfying the ‘Standards’ the main teacher attention goes on those subjects and teaching them in a way that allows perfect understanding of the points likely to be tested on.
I can’t remember the third point. The report sounds like a lot of specious drivel from highly-paid education specialists waffling on about things they can’t do themselves (possibly consultants). Their workplace involves sitting on chairs and working out tests for teachers out in the field who will be likely to fail the tests and demands because they are so unreasonable and impractical.
Further on the ERO report by –
Dr Graham Stoop is ERO’s chief executive and the Chief Review Officer
I listened again and he was berating teachers like a finger-pointing School Principal to pupils.
He said something like “I am sick and tired of saying this (whatever) and very few schools are following our advice”. What a lack of respect for dedicated trained workers and professionals.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/middayreport
I think that attitude flows from the generic managerial approach to everything and anything that is current. A manager doesn’t need to have in-depth understanding and experience of the field he is entering and his interest is in meeting targets and budgetary considerations. Even School Principals I think may not have been teachers or they may not have have actual relevant teaching experience.
Interesting that stoop has a background of university and teachers college admin.
He was (in part) responsible for the education of the teacher he thinks are poor.
Does he take any responsibility for the so called poor position?
The humorless humor of “Sir” Robert Jones
Wednesday 29 August 2012
If you have ever wasted a few hours and struggled through one of his dire self-published “satirical” novellas, you will be aware that the thuggish property speculator “Sir” Robert Jones fancies himself as a humorist. Perhaps his favorite humorous remark over the last few years is this drily delivered comment on gay rights: “Now you can go off and marry your horse if you want!”
No, I don’t think it’s funny either. But when Jones delivers that piece of comedy gold in front of a servile and intimidated host like Richard Griffin or Radio Sport’s Graham Hill, it always elicits a guffaw. Whether the guffaw is sincere or simply dutiful is a moot point.
Jones’s humour might not be for everyone, certainly not anyone with a sense of humour, but he still has his admirers in the media. For example, if you were sad enough to listen to yesterday’s edition of “The Huddle” on NewstalkZB, you will have heard this….
LARRY WILLIAMS: This government report wants school breakfasts to be provided at low decile schools. Ha ha ha! I see they reckon it would be for 850 schools! Ha ha ha!
DEBORAH CODDINGTON: Why can’t the local community just get together at the church hall and provide these breakfasts? Why does it always have to be the government?
LARRY WILLIAMS: Exactly. All right, gay marriage.
JOCK ANDERSON: I’m against it. It’s just politicians cozying up to gays, many of whom happen to be my friends I might add!
LARRY WILLIAMS: Ha ha ha!
JOCK ANDERSON: But I’m against it.
LARRY WILLIAMS: Deborah, what do you think?
DEBORAH CODDINGTON: I disagree with Jock. They can marry their CAT for all I care!
JOCK ANDERSON: Haw haw haw haw haw!
LARRY WILLIAMS: Ha ha ha ha ha! That’s what Bob Jones says, isn’t it! Ha ha ha ha ha!
DEBORAH CODDINGTON: Yes I think it is! Ha ha ha ha ha!
JOCK ANDERSON: Haw haw haw haw haw!
LARRY WILLIAMS: Thanks, Deborah and Jock. Up next: Murray Deaker!
UPDATE!
I’ve just heard that noted wit the Rt. Hon. Maurice Williamson quip to reporters, with the division bells ringing in the background, that he had “heard someone say that now you can marry your dog”.
Evidently the Rt. Hon. member finds that to be a particularly clever comment.
How in God’s name can you bear to listen to 1ZB Morrissey? It’s worse than Radio Live. Once in a blue moon I stop and listen to Leighton Smith while passing through the ether. I have never had to wait more than five minutes for the inevitable tirade of abuse towards all believers of Climate Change. I really believe this man has a serious mental disorder where the subject of Climate Change is concerned.
How in God’s name can you bear to listen to 1ZB Morrissey?
I listen to it so you don’t have to, Anne.
It’s worse than Radio Live.
While Radio Live has some excellent hosts, such as Keith Stewart, Karen and Andrew, and some of the Sunday people, there are also some pretty braindead people there. Here are a few of their most egregious bottom-trawlers: Michael Laws, Mitch Harris, Martin Devlin, John Matheson, Hamish McKay.
And the godawful Maggie Barry had a slot there until raised to the level of her incompetence last November.
I listen to it so you don’t have to, Anne.
Thanks (grin).
That godawful Maggie Barry is my MP. I note she’s after Jacinda Ardern’s blood.
Jealousy will get you nowhere Maggie dear!
Tony Molloy QC has made some very interesting comments published in the NBR ‘subscriber-only’ section, regarding the need for specialist NZ Judges.
(Would you want brain surgery performed by a heart surgeon?
Same argument applies to Judges (and lawyers?)
______________________________________________________________________________
“New Zealanders shafted by fraudulent justice system, says top QC”
My comment (we’ll see how long it stays up 🙂
“Combine the lack of legally qualified ‘horses for courses’ (including the lack of specialised Judges) with the FACT that our NZ judiciary is effectively ‘out of control’ – with NO enforceable ‘Code of Conduct’ for NZ Judges, no Register of Pecuniary Interests for NZ Judges and Court proceedings regularly not being recorded – then ask yourself – how on EARTH is New Zealand ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’?
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com “
I can’t find any reference to Kelvin Smythe’s recent commentary on the NACT Party’s education policy and Minister.
Well worth a read!
http://www.networkonnet.co.nz/index.php?section=latest&id=402
Ta.
Well, it appears that this government have caved in on software patents:
This government has just made it much harder and expensive for our software firms to be innovative.
I hope that this blog isn’t going to be the in-place for conducting inquests on rape and the disgraceful behaviour of men. There seems to be a group who comment here putting women’s rights above everything else. Aren’t there other blogs who specialise in supporting women who want to complain and talk about victimisation? But who can’t self-examine themselves or their sisters and perhaps their own provocative behaviour, or even agree that women can act provocatively and unreasonably. And can’t agree that the world can be unsafe and individuals should be cognisant and take some responsibility for themselves.
I fear that if the present trend continues The Standard will become dominated by one issue which will never finish because it is such a fertile field for criticisms. These will always be renewed as there are many attacks and discriminatory behaviours that would outrage any person. But they cannot be discussed in any rational manner looking right around the problem, trying to find a way to limit and then stop assaults.
If this happens the commenters with wider interests looking for real discussions on them will go elsewhere.
Whao, dude, where did this come from? I haven’t been around for a while, but the last couple of Open Mikes I’ve read haven’t been overrun with what you describe. Are you refering to the perspectives in the link posted by Carol a #6.4? If so, you have to understand that they are fully supported by logical reasoning and statistics and that any attitude you may detect in necessarily abbreviating some of the concepts is completely allowable and valid. They are talking to the converted, to some degree.
If there is a specific idea or concept in mind, offer it up. Do you want to discuss the arbitrary limitations of personal responsibility? Would you like to investigate the myths around self-protection in a prejudiced and priviledged world? How about the hidden dangers of using analogy to assist logic? That’s how the Standard Open Mike works isn’t it?
Uturn
I actually don’t want to discuss any of your suggestions. And I find it just as irritating to come across gender politics regularly as I found Pete George’s too frequent comments. And he made reasonable comments also, but with a slant towards his favourite argument. With gender politics there is a team that comes out of a huddle and envelops the discussion.
There are a lot of things I am concerned about and I think that I can leave you to worry at the female angle on anything.
I have to say I find your comment quite bizarre prism. As far as I can tell the recent upsurge in discussions from ‘female angles’ has happened for two reasons:
1. Morrissey spammed TS with posts about the Assange case, and eventually some of us got sick of the rape apologies going on, so we started talking about that aspect of the case. Flowing on from that has been wider discussion about rape and rape culture.
2. There are more women commenting here now. It’s natural that intelligent, politicised women will want to talk about issues what interests them.
Ghettoising women in the blogosphere is akin to saying that women shouldn’t take their interests anywhere where men have dominated (eg parliament). Women aren’t going to take their little interests back to the kitchen. Sorry mate, you’re just going to have to suck it up.
I’m also guessing that you mean that talking about rape makes you uncomfortable. This is understandable, but I don’t think it is reasonable to expect women not to talk about rape in mixed company, given that the problem is with men. I wouldn’t worry about it too much though, it will come and go as a topic like other ones do.
btw, I’ve been meaning to say this for some time. I’ve been really enjoying how many women are commenting here now. TS is a fairly blokey place, which is fine, and I think it adds to the place to have strong women’s voices here too. This isn’t just in obvious feminist discussion, I’ve been noticing the different views that women often bring into the debates. A few men have commented on this too.
And I would add that the issue today that has given rise to some of the comments is the passage of the marriage equality bill. I’m not into marriage myself, but understand that for a large number of LGBT people, it’s a significant milestone – a measure of achieving full acceptance in the eyes of contemporary society. It’s not an issue that’s likely to dominate here once the bill is passed.
I can remember the time when people, even friends, rarely talked about homosexuality, and when they did it was with a significant sneer and demonisation. The impact was debilitating for those so ostracised, in every sphere of their lives. I have known people who have committed suicide, been incarcerated in psychiatric institutions (and one old guy in the UK who had been imprisoned), deteriorated into alcohol or other addictions, and/or been rejected by their families.
So, please can we (hopefully) celebrate an important landmark, without one or two (and it is a minority) of those whose sexuality has dominated exclusively for too long, giving us a bit of a slap and saying “But what about me?”
Another stimulus to discussion of rape/sexual assault today came from Uturn’s question (I have the impression UTurn is a male).
And then you will see, I for one, will be largely back to the pressing issues of income inequality, poverty, employment structure etc….. ones that won’t make one or two leftie guys feel the least bit uncomfortable.
I’ve been really enjoying how many women are commenting here now. TS is a fairly blokey place, which is fine, and I think it adds to the place to have strong women’s voices here too.
It is a steadily rising tide. Quite encouraging bearing in mind that we do have some rather pointed debates going on at various times.
However, for the sheer volume of comments you can’t beat a man for their genetically enhanced obsessional devotion. And alas we don’t have nearly as many obsessionally persistent female authors as I’d like. Probably for the same reason I suspect.
😈 cat/pigeons…
BTW: I like obsessional devotion. I’m a programmer by choice mostly because I can’t get bored programming (as I did with every other profession I went into). The continuous massive and ongoing learning curve is great. Try to find another profession where the body of knowledge in a field requires me to still spend ~20% of my time learning new stuff after 20 years coding professionally. Programmers have obsessional devotion emblazoned as part of their job description. If you don’t have it then you descend and wind up as a manager…..
ah devotion-“in the flow”
just wonderful!
How about guest posting some of QoT’s posts (assuming she agrees)? eg ones like this update about Shearer’s dogwhistle
http://ideologicallyimpure.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/david-shearer-lies-about-his-own-dogwhistle/
Chur, weka. lprent and The Standard have occasionally reposted me or hosted my guest-posts, like I just commented above moments ago, but I’m always happy to have more fame thrust upon me! 😛
Sweet! 😀
We should do that. I don’t know about the others but I have been so busy that I have problems reading this site. Other sites haven’t been easy to find time for.
Final freeze on hardware and code in October. And I am already behind in my code because of a flu or something on Thursday..
Morrissey spammed TS with posts about the Assange case, and eventually some of us got sick of the rape apologies going on, so we started talking about that aspect of the case.
What rape apologies have I ever engaged in? Perhaps you have some evidence to back up your self-rigteous posturing, but I strongly doubt it.
Yeah you’re right, it’s possible that it’s more a form of rape denialism 🙄 Or a mix of the two.
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/feed-the-faq-rape-apologist-definitions-clarifications-and-links/
(every time you have said that Assange never raped those women. I really don’t have to provide a link, ‘cos you’ve been saying it for ages).
Yeah you’re right, it’s possible that it’s more a form of rape denialism. Or a mix of the two.
Your lack of wit is compounded by your incomprehensibility.
I really don’t have to provide a link, ‘cos you’ve been saying it for ages).
In other words, you can find no instance of my indulging in “rape apology”.
Q.E.D.
Is there anything in your post that actually means anything?
You do realise that in my post 14.1.1.1 I wasn’t referring specifically to you as a rape apologist. But if the cap fits…
http://thestandard.org.nz/nz-vs-ecuador/#comment-511672
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22082012/#comment-511635
http://thestandard.org.nz/nz-vs-ecuador/#comment-511546
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22082012/#comment-511301
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22082012/#comment-511534
http://thestandard.org.nz/nz-vs-ecuador/#comment-510755
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20072012/comment-page-1/#comment-496300
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-20072012/comment-page-1/#comment-496300
Is there anything in your post that actually means anything?
You know perfectly well what my words mean. The Latin abbreviation you can look up.
You do realise that in my post 14.1.1.1 I wasn’t referring specifically to you as a rape apologist.
Good.
But if the cap fits…
None of those links lends any support to your sleazy insinuations.
Yes they do (and I’m fairly sure that the few minutes between my posting them and you replying isn’t long enough for you to have examined them). But I didn’t post them for your benefit 😉
Yes they do
No they do not, and you know perfectly well they do not.
(and I’m fairly sure that the few minutes between my posting them and you replying isn’t long enough for you to have examined them).
Good Lord, how slow is your internet connection? I clicked on most of them, and recognized what I’d written, which of course was nothing like what you claimed.
But I didn’t post them for your benefit
Running such a malicious campaign of falsehoods certainly is not beneficial to your own reputation. So why exactly DID you post them?
So people can judge for themselves.
much is determined
may be all “analogy”
And yet, a look at the last few posts/articles on TS shows they are about poverty (one written by me I might add), and one on asset sales.
I have posted quite a bit on poverty and income inequality lately – are those comments invisible?
Agree, your one on Open Mike yesterday was particularly good.
Thank-you, Bored.
FFS prism.
The matters you don’t want others to talk about, even though you’ve brought them up yourself, seemingly out of the blue, are a very small proportion of the multitude of discussions on open mike, and also a small proportion of the many subjects that those who have offended you, have talked about on open-mike.
Interesting that you have perceived them as dominating though.
It’s not about women but injustice and that needs to be talked about and addressed whether you like it or not.
I agree DTB. But what quality discussion can be held when accusations of “rape apologist” and “supporter of rape culture” are quickly rolled out.
Because that’s not about any kind of real discussion, that’s simply about shutting discussion down. i.e. your perspectives are wrong, my perspectives are right, there’s nothing whatsoever inbetween to be discussed, and if you bring it up again you must be a very bad person.
If a commenter does not wish to be accused of being a “rape apologist”, then that commenter should avoid making comments that appear to marginalise rape complainants and minimise the extent and effect of what acts have been complained about.
Avoiding the standard tropes of “he’s a nice guy”, “but they were in bed together”, “she obviously changed her mind the next day” and “golly gee, but what does ‘consent’ really mean?” would also help.
In other words, don’t bother to raise any discussion points if they don’t fall in line with what other people think is the correct interpretation.
No I think it means show your reasoning without skipping any of the process. That is what is called discussion. And if your reason is you just don’t like X or Y or some other whim, and intend never to learn or change, then admit it. Worst case, people should be able to reach impasses amicably and then just leave off.
It’s also evidence of understandably unprepared people (nobody can know everything) attempting to discuss often emotionally charged topics.
If everyone approached contentious issues in good faith, had intimate knowledge about the privilege society grants their skin, gender, physical size, ability and appearance, family history etc; could tell the difference between an animate and an inanimate object, making comparisons of like accurately; understood the literal and cultural implications of the English language; then the conceptual abbreviations that emerge as accusations such as rape apologist/supporter either wouldn’t happen or would be understood as attacks on the ignorance of privilege, not the individual.
Someone who has spent a lifetime experiencing negative isms will see things a bit more angrily when it’s pushed once more in their face, than those who haven’t and who (sometimes unintentionally) say things that push emotional triggers in the oppressed party. Must a victim constantly walk each unknowing person through the basics forever and ever without showing the least bit of irritation? Could they be forgiven for thinking a certain train of thought or phrasing of words will lead the same place every time? Must they be asked to use words that upset them, so that their opponents don’t get upset? And do it all from a defensive position. It’s a big ask. Even Gandhi and Christ got mad.
It doesn’t need to shut discussion down. If the oppressed person gets angry at unintentional errors and then says to the unaware privileged party, “You’re a bad person” then surely that too is understandable. Hurt occupies all spheres of the human psyche, emerging in all ways rational and irrational. So while we play with concepts, safely, on our PC screens and several degrees removed, with no consequences thanks to the distance of the internet; talking about rape as if it’s merely a four letter word and nothing more; someone else has and is living the reality. While the privileged party is unaware of their privilege, or maybe carrying their own emotional scars set off by conflict, they too will get hurt and then arguments starts, polarisation is reached and nothing good.
The Standard is not a minority space as such. Anyone can join in without having to pass a test. lprent was just saying how a broader selection of views was the motivation to begin this place. However, there is no mystery that a certain attitude and perspective holds sway here. Nothing wrong with that, everything has to start somewhere. If you’re cis, as QoT put it earlier, allowing a bit more leeway, carrying a bit more of the load, taking a few hits without moaning its not fair, to allow voices not usually heard, isn’t going to end in the total silencing of the sacred privileged voice.
A place like this has the potential to allow people with differences to meet, with a greater buffer for ignorant people to get less ignorant without the wounds they would get blundering into a minority space. That’s why I come here, as one of the ignorants. If that doesn’t happen, it’s because the dominant culture couldn’t make changes, not any particular hostility from a visitor.
Wow! Srong Medicine!
(couldnt even find the The Standard on the favourites)
practice practice practice
+1
Unfortunately it’s the jump to accusations of rape apologist that is often lacking reasoning and empathy with the opponents point of view. It is understandable that people are ignorant, and in the case of rape culture this is sometimes beneficial.
Contentious I know, but the best way of not being a victim is to not let your resentment at the abuse you’ve received be perpetuated onto innocent (ignorant) people. In a way you’re simply making an excuse for the cycle of abuse to continue, albeit in a limited way. Ghandi and Christ certainly did not preach for the continuance of hurt in any of its manifestations and I think both sides of the discussion should think a bit harder about what they write as to not cause offense when it is not deserved.
I’m glad there’s a group (both men and woman) who comment here that highly value women’s rights. This is in stark contrast to many other blogs where a feminine perspective is criticized, if its present at all. Men need to face the fact that women have been badly treated and repressed for a very long time and some of the negative comments directed in a generalized way are deserved. Some of course are not, but it’s a kind of rebalancing if you like that the blogosphere and western culture in general needs to see a lot more of.
Prism has a valid point concerning the Assange debate which just went around in circles for days. That stagnation more than talking about rape per se makes me now skip through such comments. In my opinion, much of the discussion was doing more harm than good… I think we can all agree that’s not the desired outcome.
“Unfortunately it’s the jump to accusations of rape apologist that is often lacking reasoning and empathy with the opponents point of view.”
I don’t think that accusation has been made widely against specific people here. Mostly I’ve been talking about Assange, then later Pilger, and in a general sense of x attitude supports rape culture. I know you took some of my general comments personally, but IMO you were mistaken.
“Prism has a valid point concerning the Assange debate which just went around in circles for days.”
Funny how people remember things differently. See I remember the general Assange debate going on for much longer than that. Ad nauseum. Very long threads and arguments that I’m sure lots of us weren’t even reading in the end. But when some of us started talking about the rape issues, all of a sudden this is a problem. It didn’t go round in circles for days. There were some interesting lines of conversation that arose periodically and that eventually morphed into discussion about things like consent.
If those “discussion points” follow the same form as tactics used to minimise rape for the last several hundred years, don’t bother to raise them.
If those “discussion points” are verbatim, demonstrable lies from the “nice guy’s” legal team, don’t bother to raise them.
And if you don’t understand the difference between “I want this” vs “No, don’t do that”, don’t bother commenting because you can add nothing to the debate.
If you have clear and demonstrable reasons for believing a complaint to be false then in that case, fair enough. But remember that western society has largely been built on minimising the impact of injustice and violence against (amongst others) women, and try to phrase your argument accordingly. You shouldn’t have to step back in time fifty or one hundred years simply to defend a genuinely “nice guy”.
What irritates me is that while there are real injustices and inequalities happening in the world, there is also a brigade who appears to think that they are all of a comparable magnitude, that you can primarily resolve them by wordsmithing the vocabulary people use, by controlling the discussions they engage in, and by badgering them with indignant moral righteousness.
I’m predicting that’s gonna be a fail, but I could be wrong.
Not sure if you are applying this to Assange, but by most accounts he’s a real prick.
Trying to avoid the Assange thing while addressing the point. Even though he is very much the elephant in the room.
Even if injustices and inequalities all each had their own place in a single objective continuum of “magnitude”, surely a person is able to advocate against one without supporting another?
Surely bringing up rape myths to try to discredit allegations against someone who opposes high-magnitude injustices cheapens us all? And surely it would also be unnecessary if the allegations were demonstrably false?
I just read Open Mike of 18/8 again, lots of vitriol, and I read Uturn on giving greater leaway to victims because I might be privleged.. ., and I perceive a lot of guilty before proven flying around, and some views being ascribed greater value because of who says them. All couched in complicated arguments. I am no better informed.
google feminism 101 then 😛
What irritates me is that while there are real injustices and inequalities happening in the world, there is also a brigade who appears to think that they are all of a comparable magnitude, that you can primarily resolve them by wordsmithing the vocabulary people use, by controlling the discussions they engage in, and by badgering them with indignant moral righteousness.
Mostly I agree with this and would rather argue my corner based on reference to relevant evidence and (what seems to me) a logical argument.
But there is also a place for expressing moral indignation or anger, so long as it doesn’t become a persistent MO.
This:
real injustices and inequalities happening in the world, there is also a brigade who appears to think that they are all of a comparable magnitude,
Some feminists these days refer to the “oppression olympics” (my oppression is worse than yours) as a fruitless endeavour,.
They (and I) prefer an approach labelled “intersectionality” i.e. taking each issue separately and being aware of how various injustices/inequalities can intersect, overlap, feed off each other, and at times conflict. So for instance, the division between class/socio-economic issues and “identity” issues is not that clear-cut. What about working class or unemployed LGBT people, or Māori, or women in any of those groups?
Well, I too have been known to express a note of moral indignation from time to time 🙂
This is fine for an academic or policy analyst. But outside of those circles, extremely few individuals conceptualise their lives or those of their communities in terms of “intersectionality”, or would be persuaded by such arguments.
Actually, many might not use the word “intersectionality”, but many do, in practice see themselves in terms of more than one identity. It’s a fact of life in modern society. How else would an unemployed lesbian or disabled person see themselves?
And some feminists who use such terms are not particularly aademic.
I certainly don’t see it any more of an abstract academic concept than many you have used in discussions of economics, financial organisations and socio-economic structures.
CV & Carol, you have both illustrated nicely where the downward spiral perpetuates from…Academia.
There are other factors, but by in large the overwhelming majority are ruled by the financial, and academic elite, while the sporting elite, and other skilled indivuduals, teams or groups, are simply the entertainment and distrations for the “unwashed”,
Until the the gap is bridged, more inequality in terms of poverty/wealth, educated and undereducated will drive humanity into the ground.
The human experiment is failing, unless youre at the top end of it, and until a connection can be found to the “unwashed”. there is no turning the ship around, not that I believe there is a desire to do so!
No amount of online posteuring will contribute, not in any meaningful way, and I would hope that the two of you are active not just in the virtual space, your posts would indicate potential!
But remember that western society has largely been built on minimising the impact of injustice and violence against (amongst others) women,
How can we forget. It’s still happening amongst other awful things. Rachel Corrie was mentioned on Open Mike by William Joyce, that’s an awful thing that should be remembered. Though sex wasn’t involved. I think being run over by a bulldozer is worse than most things.
McFlock 14 4 1 1
So you want to decide what people should say and think. That is despotic and prejudiced. You jump in and attack with words anyone with an opinion you don’t approve of with rape inflaming your mind. Perhaps it would be better to have a thread just for angry feminists that you can moderate for yourselves and let us have the rest of the blog to put our thoughts as ‘ordinary’ people.
Nah, mate.
But if people are allowed to minimise sexual assault because it makes their politics inconvenient, I’m allowed to call it what it is. If they don’t want to be called “rape apologists”, the best way is for them to avoid acting like “rape apologists”.
Yep.
So in the interests of their personal politics, who exactly is seeking to minimise rape and sexual assault? And who exactly is seeking to maximise rape and sexual assault?
Nobody “maximises” rape as far as I’ve seen. Quite a few simply insist that it be called what it is.
As for “who minimises” rape, for a start try the people who argue that any particular case of a person claiming to have been forced to have sex against their will was not “real” rape, or that they complained out of jealousy, or that they were in bed with the accused so anything is okay, or that nothing ever happened and they made it up for their own reasons. All based on very little knowledge of what actually happened.
If you have a particular case in mind, look at the comments about the incident. See if any match. There’s your answer.
You’re pretending that one word “rape” is a satisfactory descriptor while I believe it is not. That one word alone is not sufficient to cover the very wide range of situations and offending which can occur. This NZ law understands. And even the Swedes recognise that there are wide variations in culpability, as we also see in the wide range of sentences our courts hand out. So yes I agree with you fully, “rape” needs to be called exactly what it is, straight out.
But then you have to take it to the next step and differentiate between the severity of the crime, e.g. as Sweden does – ‘minor rape’, ‘moderate rape’ and ‘severe rape’. (Although I don’t know the exact Swedish translation is, they have 3 grades of severity enshrined in legislation as I understand it). I take it that you have no problem accepting this, from what I have read.
Yeah which is why I’m sick of people assuming Assange is guilty based on circumstantial matters (“oh look he happened to leave Sweden at a very convenient time!”) instead of giving him the presumption of innocence which he is due.
“Rape” is perfectly adequate to describe “sex without consent”. Far more accurate than “sex by surprise”, for example.
Where did anyone say that Assange is definitely guilty of rape?
As opposed to people claiming that the women made up their allegations, or that there is not a shred of evidence against him (when courts in two jurisdictions have found otherwise), I mean.
Yeah, I’ve never said I thought Assange was guilty. Seriously, we’ve been through this before. Alot.
btw, I am under no obligation to give Assange the presumption of innocence. Jurors are, as are media, judges, etc. But not me, nor you. I don’t happen to have an opinion about Assange’s guilt or innocence. My arguments have been based solely on the reports of the complainants and that if they are true, then it was rape.
‘Rape’ is the word in common usage. We’re not in a court of law here.
The problem with using terms like ‘minor rape’ is that outside a legal situation in Sweden, they’re meaningless. Want to tell a woman that’s been raped that her rape was minor? Think about that.
I’ll use the terms sexual assault and sexual abuse as needed (although not strictly interchangeable), so it’s not like the term rape has to be used all the time. Shall we call a man putting his erect penis in a woman’s vagina while she is asleep and without her prior consent ‘sexual abuse’? Is that better?
Yeah its all a bit deja vu.
I’d be happy to stop talking about Assange for sure 🙂
Looks to me like some of the men here are taking things personally, and in all honesty, things probably not even directed at them. Any chance you could take a step back and give some of us the benefit of the doubt, that we might actually know what we are talking about? I don’t mean accept whatever is said, I mean get to know the concepts and language and issues and then debate them meaningfully.
I can’t see the difference between an angry feminist and an angry [insert politics of choice]. People get angry here all the time, so what is the problem when women/feminists do it? Although for the record, I don’t feel angry most of the time posting here on these issues. I do feel frustrated in a rolling eyes, here we go again, kind of way. And disappointed. The rape discussions haven’t really gotten past 101 level yet (actually that is me being kind, in some ways some of them are not even in high school yet). Can you imagine what it is like being here with so many intelligent passionate people and them struggling to get even basic concepts? (obviously I’m not talking about everyone here). Seeing people here with massive knowledge about certain areas of politics and then realising that they have so little knowledge of other issues that it’s hard to even have a coherent conversation?
‘Rape culture’ theory is a legitimate political analysis. ‘Rape apologist’ is a legitimate descriptor of how some people endorse rape culture. If you are not familiar with those terms, as feminists use them, then I suggest you take some time to learn about them. Then some of what is being discussed might start to make sense.
btw it’s very strange to see TS regulars saying that it’s not ok to call people names :roll:. Or that suddenly we’re not allowed to critique use of language, or challenge people on what they are saying. Or that making strong arguments is somehow trying to control how people think or makes us despotic. Good grief, that’s what commenters here do all the time.
I agree that many commenters use quite dismissive terminology, not just feminists. They can’t be the apt terms to use on occasions, but they don’t usually work for me, especially when used a lot.
I consider myself a feminist, but tend not to use such terms like “xxxxx apologist” . I tend to feel it doesn’t help with communicating an argument, but just works as a debate-stopper. And they tend to sound like jargon that just works to interfere with the message.
Just because many feminists use such terms, doesn’t mean it’s really that helpful to use them a lot in debates….. IMO.
Who’s you DTB be specific. And when people are thinking about injustice they can find it everywhere as you say.
As it was a reply to you I was being specific. Of course the structure of the sentence was also general enough that it could apply to anyone reading it.
The problem being was that you were whinging about people discussing a particular injustice, in your words, “putting women’s rights above everything else”. Hiding from that injustice isn’t going to make it go away.
As has been pointed out before, we can discuss and act on more than one thing at a time.
DTB
Yes that is what I was asking for, not to be dominated by one thing and told what to think about it. Hardly a rational discussion allowed.
Also I was making a salient point that if women’s rights were going to dominate, it would be an irritant just like Pete G was and in the end people won’t want to use the site. But we can criticise Pete G who wasn’t always wrong, and freeze him off with faces, but I presume women’s rape and sexual assaults can’t be treated the same. It is not PC to honestly say enough. It is not allowed.
But I think I’m wasting my time trying to explain this. I will probably just give up. And spend my time elsewhere trying to understand things that are available to be understood, noted, questioned, discussed, ameliorated, changed, and hopefully be solved or at least improved. That’s what interests me and what I thought I’d see on this blog.
prism, and bored too – the discussions are a chance for you to learn, to listen and think, not just about what is being said, but why it is being said. I have learned so much from those arguments and I don’t think they are a waste, or use up bandwidth, no – they are essential IMO.
You guys are missing out on the best education out there – learning from others who are different to you, about their experiences and views – it is a gift, stop wasting it.
MM, I agree, remember it is a two way street, we are all different.
“Also I was making a salient point that if women’s rights were going to dominate, it would be an irritant just like Pete G was and in the end people won’t want to use the site. But we can criticise Pete G who wasn’t always wrong, and freeze him off with faces, but I presume women’s rape and sexual assaults can’t be treated the same. It is not PC to honestly say enough. It is not allowed.”
I don’t see it. The rape issues aside, there isn’t that much discussion about women’s rights here and I don’t see much protest about talking about women’s rights on TS either. We’re not even close to dominating.
I don’t see feminists grabbing the first post on Open Mike each morning. Nor using TS to link to their own blogs and up their traffic. Nor doing the rounds of other blogs slagging off TS. Nor posting massive amounts of inanities that have people pulling their hair our. Nor do I see long lines of people resorting to using 🙄 instead of an answer to a comment.
The rape issues aside, there isn’t that much discussion about women’s rights here and I don’t see much protest about talking about women’s rights on TS either. We’re not even close to dominating.
The few explicitly-feminist posts there have been on TS (disclaimer: often written by me) tend to attract a huge number of comments, but yeah. It’s hardly like there’s even one definitively-feminist-issue-related post a week around here, unless we start assuming everything welfare/poverty/child abuse-related is only a feminist issue.
What I personally love is how after Morrissey spent something like a week getting the first post on Open Mike every single day to put forward more defences of Assange, suddenly prism’s problem is that it’s the evil feminists who are trying to dominate the conversation.
That makes me glad I’ve been otherwise too busy/tired to bother with the open mike for the last couple of weeks…
Oh lordy…
/snark on.
It’s very simple, FUCK YOU.
What you’re doing is here is blaming the victim for the behaviour of the attacker, who, under the law is solely responsible for their own actions (unless significant mental illness etc gets in the way…), and should know far fucking better. And you know what else victim blaming does? It makes victims lives even more of a struggle, it can lead to significant depressive episodes or worse, significant social isolation and overall reduces reportage of serious crimes to the police. Like rape.
If you can’t or wont understand the above, fuck off to the sewer where this sort of bullshit is oft praised and you can totes pat yourself on the back for pushing “responsibility”.
/facepalm
The stupid, it burns.
Aww, cupcake, is your privileged little white dude world getting all perturbed by the rather real human rights issues feminists bring up? Awww, poor snookums, you better go listen to the froth of shit that is talk-back radio then to try and hide the problems the part of the population that isn’t white dudes has to deal with daily. While the rest of us who don’t turn a blind eye get on with kicking the patriarchy firmly in the groin and the daily cluebatting of ignorant, privileged, twits like you.
Two things NickS:
* whilst the victim is never responsible for the behavior of the offender it is incumbent to be aware of the danger, and certain men are worth taking a very wide berth of. I think that was Prisms point, sort of like dont go to Compton and dance in the street without being aware that the Cryps might mug you, the world can be a bad place so be aware. Sad but true. Again no excuses for perpetrators.
*Tagging Prism cupcake etc, I see him regularly kicking the patriarchy firmly in the groin and you go kicking him for being a priveleged white dude. How to win friends and influence people. Really clever, not.
lolwut?
If prism had meant to say that, he shouldn’t have said what he said, and even then, in the context of where and how rapes happen, the horror is that the predominately aren’t done by someone completely unknown to the victim. Often it’s a family, a friend, or someone within their social circle, and the warning signals aren’t always that straightforward to pick up, and more worryingly little is often done by those in a position to intervene, for a variety of crap reasons.
As for attacking prism, guess what? Shitty victim blaming etc still makes you a douchebag no matter how much “good” you’ve done.
Nick S 14.5
Yours is just the sweeping despotic prejudiced reaction that I am talking about. Cripes I have never done anything bad enough to earn this sort of shit. You are one smug superior know-all thinking you can abuse someone because by merely defending the victims you are earning brownie points and there are no holds barred. And I thought you were a scientific type, or perhaps that was another Nick.
Or it could be, that after months of watching otherwise intelligent individuals in the atheist community completely fail at basic scepticism vs feminism and it’s aims, along with denying harassment is an issue or engage in victim blaming vis harassment and supporting the harassers I no longer have _any_ tolerance for such shit.
From anyone.
Irrespective of who the fuck they are.
And the fact you assume that I’m doing it for “brownie points” is frankly fucking pathetic.
I’m not doing this for “kudos”, I’m doing this to rip into your bullshit for the shear fucking self satisfaction of the act, for forcing you to confront the bitter truth that you’re putting forth pure bullshit.
And amusingly I see you’re dodging.
I’m doing this to rip into your bullshit for the shear fucking self satisfaction of the act
Which is why Nick, life must be so very hard for you what with an attitude like that. I suspect a real life meeting with you would reveal a somewhat toned down arrogance, but arrogance none the less (hiding some other holes in the “armour”), which must really contribute heavily to your self professed depression!
Thanks Muzza, said it for me. Seemed rather like listening to Comrade Prosecutor at a Soviet show trial, somewhat psychotic. Like the rest of the arguments it gave me some insight into what Orwell went through with his “allies” in Spain. Who needs enemies with friends like this?
:rolleyes:
Ye elder things…
Of course, such a claim also allows you to marginalise and dismiss my anger :3
How convenient for you.
Yeah, I find Nick’s post pretty over the top in style, at the same time as agreeing largely with the substance.
So, if you have a problem with Nick’s anger, then be honest about that. This kind of attempt at pathologising someone’s argument is poor debate:
“Seemed rather like listening to Comrade Prosecutor at a Soviet show trial, somewhat psychotic. Like the rest of the arguments it gave me some insight into what Orwell went through with his “allies” in Spain.”
There have been similar, lesser attempts throughout this whole discussion on rape. The subtle attempts to pathologise people talking about rape says more about the discomfit some people are feeling on the topic than anything.
“play the ball, not the man” 😉
”play the ball, not the man”
Yes. An approach I always agree with: a policy I aim for, even if imperfectly – not always easy.
Thanks :3
And I’m glad I missed those discussions, they would have been seriously upsetting to read…
And once more muzza proceeds to unintentionally be highly ironic.
Simply by doing what they claim I’m doing. Oh and in case you haven’t learnt it yet, there’s a very big difference between anger and arrogance.
And I so <3 totes your attempts at armchair psychology, which show you really don't gork depression (which is probably a good thing, since it requires training or actually having had it) and are attempting to arrogantly impose your own ignorant assumptions /smugface
The assumption of ignorance, again serves only to emphasize that my contention of arrogance, was on the mark!
:rolleyes:
1) you made a claim about my depression which doesn’t match teh evidence*
2) for which the phrase “ignorant assumption” describes well
3) instead then of actually explaining why your assumption wasn’t ignorant, you then proceed to call me “arrogant”
[insert sarcastic clapping here]
___________________________
* I know pretty much why I’m depressed (suicidal episodes do have their slight sliver linings…), and it sure as hell has nothing to do with arrogance.
You should know yourself well then, if you have been paying attention…
Keep learning though, don’t give up, and perhaps one day you might understand what I meant!
I’m not sure that even you know what you meant, muz
Muzza. Time for us to leave, there is no sense in this. Prism has gone.
Yes Bored, run along and so totes don’t bothering address any of my points 🙄
Pointless. Good riddance.
🙄
Sad to see you pulling a PG Bored and running away.
Jeez you are brave: I’m going away now as I could not possibly comment validly (being a white middle aged male).
Oh, poor Bored. It must be so terrible, not being able to fling around contemptuous comments about people with “identities” without other people criticising you. Life is fuckin’ tough, ain’t it?
Yawn (terminal ennui)….
Jim Mora announcing his menu for today – ‘Do we need to send a delegation to Rio to find out about climate change?’ Not, I wonder what our delegation will tell us about the latest results on climate change.
Does Sanitarium pay taxes or are they excused because they are a charitable organisation?
Certainly they are using our legal system to assert copyright law and get an injunction against someone with a similar product. Is that what is called parallel importing?
I supose sex is ok if you haven’t got good book or there is nothing on telly.
how is it that kweewee can give to the rich but not those in need.
poor people dont eat money.
they use it to buy food.
and not as a tool to fuck with the bank managers head when they haven’t got anything else to do.
After keeping the excise duty on petrol down it now appears that NACT will be increasing it to help pay for their uneconomic RoNS.
So what we’ll see is even more cars off the roads and those highways becoming even more uneconomic.
Didn’t the same government reject a rise in petrol tax in the Auckland region, which was wanted to improve public transport?
another broken election promise.
Nick Smith and Stephen Joyce both criticised Labours policy of raising fuel taxes 2008.
Saying it would damage the economy: yeah right!
Far easier to tax everyone a little frequently, even if it is regressive by nature. So if we should revert back to 70’s Aussie muscle cars will the exercise tax be reduced?
I hope that MRP IPO gets underway soon as there is just over 700 days to fulfill the Nats election platform.
I hope that Lab will have a progressive and forward thinking platform instead of what normally happens with an election win by default.
Best Asset Sales piece yet – from granny no less. And look at the comments. That rumble is sound of NATZy sphincters twitching.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=10829989
If you don’t tear up while reading this article,
then you are heartless.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/its-useful-to-read-the-comments-from-readers-below-the-article-bear-in-mind-that-these-are-the-readers-of-a-newspaper-that-although-liberal-is-basically-an-israeli-propaganda-outlet-israels/
b4 i go
“th-c and the boids” are Not for everyone
Master-inhale
inhale again
inhale too often-slave
take care
Brownlee answering questions on behalf of the PM today. Guess one of Key’s nieces has a spelling bee or something.
Still, at least he’s got his best man on the job. FFS.
Yes, after all, why would Key want to waste his time fronting up to “dopey” questions about poverty, when He could be cheer-leading his niece’s educational niche skill?
And much better to have Brownlee confirming Key’s contradictory beliefs. Whose gonna really challenge such a big man, and with Dunne immediatley providing cover following Shearer’s question?
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Business/QOA/3/d/b/50HansQ_20120829_00000001-1-Child-Poverty-and-Living-Standards-Reports.htm
And the context of Key’s statement on WFF as targeted, was supporting WFF:
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/key-dismisses-payment-all-parents-dopey-5049753
Though Shearer wasn’t quick enough on his feet to expose Key’s hypocrisy.
Oh, no FFS: Key is getting ferried around and fêted in Rarotonga, and practicing his royal wave:
http://www.3news.co.nz/Key-Gillard-get-heroes-welcome-to-forum/tabid/417/articleID/267282/Default.aspx
Much more important than answering questions on NZ’s soaring child poverty.
I am fed up to the back teeth with the small town viciousnness of the reaction to Stewart Murray Wilson’s ‘freedom’ as 3 News calls it.
This sort of sums up what I think.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/a-sort-of-quite-limited-defence-of-stewart-murray-wilson
I’m sick of the way he gets top spot in the news.
+1 Just stated that very comment to my husband
+1 from me too. Have had to give up watching the TV news. The Beast of Blenheim. It sounds like we’ve stepped back into the medieval ages when the strong women weka was talking about earlier were being burnt at the stake for being witches.
Edit: no disrespect to his victims. I just find the on-going obsession with him symptomatic of a juvenile media.
yeah, the news media should do like one of the suggestions coming out of Whanganui: just shun the evil little fucker. Don’t even acknowledge his existence.
With you on this one, Vicky32. Spent most of the day in the river city and to be fair, it wasn’t uppermost on the minds of the people I was talking to, they just wanted to know if they still had a job. Sadly for 3 dozen of them, the answer was no. Brighter future, anyone?
However, Wilson did come up a couple of times. I was talking to a journo mate and she made me laugh when she referred to her shift waiting for Wilson to twitch the curtains this morning as being on ‘beast watch’. And Tariana Turia’s new nickname is 668 … the neighbour of the beast, ho ho.
Although that is somewhat clever… However, it’s juvenile nimbyism! What do they want him to do, kill himself? I’ve been listening to people commenting on Clive – redneck morons… (sorry, whoever hates that word – I can’t think of anything else right now – too tired! 🙂 )
Yep, redneck alright, but nice to hear the farmer putting the boot into the Nats and Turia. And the gormless local MP, Chester Borrows. (I say local, but Wanganui votes Labour, it’s just that the rest of the seat is rural Taranaki, where Borrows lives).
Vicky32, please look at beliefnet.
reminds me of Brass Eye – Paedogeddon
John Key talking down one of our major business partners and with whom we have a world first? trade agreement – China, which he said is ‘growing tentacles’ around the world. Sounds rude and hostile to me. Is he trying to suck up to Hillary Clinton who is making a jetstop visit to the Pacific Forum, so that country can continue spreading its hegemony and getting its tentacles into the Pacific?
Yeah but you gotta remember, to a sick slimy scaly fuck like Key, “growing tentacles around the world” doesn’t really have negative connotations.
He would have said it with admiration, and he wouldn’t have had any inkling that it could be taken any other way until it was pointed out to him by his people.
And even then he just has to take their word for it and file the info away for future reference because he still won’t really understand why that’s not a nice thing to say.
John Key talking down one of our major business partners and with whom we have a world first? trade agreement – China, which he said is ‘growing tentacles’ around the world
He is preparing for his future meeting with Russia,and the RNZFTA,
The statements coming out of Russia is that the expansion of the PRC is destabilizing, both the pacific and Asia,and the unstable growth of the PRC has further destabilized the global trading patterns,
Just visited the “War Remnants Museum” in Ho Chi Minh City. It documents the awful cost to the civilian population and the unrelenting violent and cruel tactics exercised by the USA military machine. Couldn’t help thinking as I walked, that you could just replace the wordVietnam, with Iraq and now Afghanistan and get the same effect. Bigger and bigger weapons, stealth bombers, and civilians the losers whilst the politicians stay safely behind flags and rhetoric.
Isn’t war a disaster especially when not in self defense? Very sad.