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Open mike 29/09/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 29th, 2011 - 168 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

168 comments on “Open mike 29/09/2011 ”

  1. tc 1

    Another kiwi dead in afghan land, pike river, etc etc but RNZ onto bigger issues this morning……TVNZ replacing coro st with chef show…..I feel informed now.

    • Bored 1.1

      Its just so fekkin predictable, us and our children as collateral damage, the media just dealing to the trivia we are brainwashed to accept.

      Meanwhile a family with a son to bury must be wondering why, what for. My sympathy is with them.

  2. Great speech by David Cunliffe in general debate yesterday:

    Some highlights:

    Key complained that New Zealand did not have a debt problem in 2008, it had a growth problem.  Thirty seven billion dollars later it has both.

    We have a personality cult of a Prime Minister.

    They said that they would close the gap with Australia.  It is now 35% and was 30%.

    “Key runs like a rabbit from the hard problems.” 

    National is betting its next three years “on a smile and a vacuous waft”. 

    Under Labour unemployment was 3.4%, it is now 6.5%.

    “The rich have got richer with windfall tax cuts and the poor can’t feed their children.”

    • logie97 2.1

      Yeah but to his credit Joky Hen has one success. He can claim to have converted a mad butcher. And he also appears to have more clarity on what he thinks about rugby now that he is in his 50s.

      • logie97 2.1.1

        … and Hooten has the gaul to talk about a butcher in a similar league to Sir Edmund Hilary.

        Open mike 19/09/2011

        Hooten, the butcher is “world famous in New Zealand” as the expression goes.

        • higherstandard 2.1.1.1

          “Hooten, the butcher is “world famous in New Zealand” as the expression goes.”

          Indeed but why would anyone ‘wish he would hurry up and die’ ?

          • mickysavage 2.1.1.1.1

            HS you are the last one to complain about standards of behavior on the internet.

            • higherstandard 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Indeed Greg but do tell why would anyone wish that the mad butcher ‘… would hurry up and die’ ?

              • Tigger

                Nice attempt at distraction hs. Now let’s get back to discussing the economy.

              • McFlock

                Mostly to give idiot tories a straw to grasp at and incessantly repeat, as opposed to the multitude of examples that frustrated, vicious, selfish, incompetent small-minded tories give the left each and every day,

          • ianmac 2.1.1.1.2

            “Hooten, the butcher is “world famous in New Zealand” as the expression goes.”
            Shift the comma.
            “Hooten the butcher, is “world famous in New Zealand” as the expression goes.”

          • Ianupnorth 2.1.1.1.3

            Warning troll alert!

          • logie97 2.1.1.1.4

            W.T.F. hs???

            • higherstandard 2.1.1.1.4.1

              Have you been away for the last few days ?

              • logie97

                … my comment of 07:47 and yours of 07:56 – what are you insinuating?
                Sir Edmund Hillary was a Knight of the Order of the Garter and recipient of many other international and national honours.

  3. The Voice of Reason 3

    Some number crunching:
     
    154000. The number who don’t have a job despite the relentless focus on jobs from John Key.
     
    170000. The number of extra workers BHP Australia says it will hire over the next 5 years, half of whom will be construction workers.
     
    So if you know one end of hammer from the other, where would you rather be? Rebuilding Chch or repairing leaky homes in Auckland for fuck all, or pulling in 100k plus super in Queensland for a 37 hour working week?
     
     

    • higherstandard 3.1

      Yes but the retards in NZ (and that’s all of parliament) have so frightened the public that we can’t go down the track of mining – because it’s evil…… evil I tells ya !

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

        You’ll notice that in Australia, all the major coastal cities are experiencing economic slow downs, while it is the mining towns which remain booming.

        In other words, without widespread and varied high value industry, all mining will do (as dairy does) is focus wealth in specific communities, with only trickles down at the margin.

        BTW increased mining in NZ would not have been an issue if Key and Brownlee hadn’t completely misjudged the public and decided that they needed to try and fuck over schedule 4 land.

        i.e. some of the blame for the backlash against mining belongs to those two. (rereading your comment I see you think so as well).

        • mik e 3.1.1.1

          lower standard their resources will run out sooner than later . The cost of retrieving minerals in this country is much higher 29 deaths for a start.Minerals are far more inaccessible, here Australia is a big ugly country and no one will notice a few holes in the ground while New Zealand is far more beautiful , and we don’t need idiots like you to stuff it up.It would be far better for our economy to add value through R&D to what we do well sustainable agriculture.However Nact have cut and re branded R&D and reduced the gains possible through consistent investment.

      • The Voice of Reason 3.1.2

        I think you missed my point, HS. I’m not bothered about the mining jobs, particularly, it’s the construction work that is going to knacker NZ. We already have many thousand less construction workers than are going to be needed for Chch and Ak in the next few years and very little work for those that are still here. We need to be training apprentices now and looking to both upskill and upgrade the pay and conditions of workers for the future or the rebuilds just won’t happen in a reasonable time frame.
         
         

      • tc 3.1.3

        Troll on, you can’t compare Oz’s mining industry which occupies desert wilderness with NZ who have no such areas to hid away the toxic lakes, sprawling worker camps etc and to play your game name some economically viable ore bodies we should be mining HS? just one will do, now’s good.

      • millsy 3.1.4

        Its not the mining mate, its the fact that people like you want it done in the Southern Alps, Mt Taranaki/Egmont (I have seen oil ooze out of the ground there..).

        Anyway, go to Central Otago, etc and look at all the ghost towns there. My point being is when the gold (or silver, platimum or whatever) runs out, the boom ends and it all falls over.

    • ianmac 3.2

      Key says often that they have created 45,000 jobs in NZ. Has anyone contested that figure?
      A bit like the claims of increasing the number of nurses by 1000 and teachers by 15000. Huh?

  4. lprent 4

    Oil Drum has a good reprint of an article on peak oil..

    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8410

    Looks at both the geological and economic and it’s effects on price. I’d have liked to have seen more on the price tipping points to other tech. But it was a brief ( for economics ) article.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      A group of economists is being taken on a tour of an underground gold mine when there is a terrible accident, sealing them all underground.

      They are not likely to be rescued for weeks, but luckily, there is an ample store of air and water down in the mine. But no food. All the economists become really quite anxious.

      One brightens considerably when he realises that he has two BLT sandwiches packed away in his briefcase. Looking at all the gold around, a cheer goes up from the economists who realise that they are all now saved.

      With no regulations, plenty of liquidity on hand, and keen buying interest, a busy market in BLT sandwiches was surely only moments away.

      • Jim Nald 4.1.1

        Haah, a speluncean hypothetical!

        The big question also is what happens next after the BLT gets swallowed down.

        Might the spelunkers be eyeing each other or stare down the most vulnerable-looking one and smack their lips?

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1

          Well, when the market price of a BLT sandwich increases sufficiently due to sandwich scarcity, market forces will guarantee additional investment in BLT sandwich production because of the massive ROI present in that market.

          This means that the more BLT sandwich prices increase, the more BLT sandwich supply will also increase = problem solved, everyone can wait happily at the bottom of the mine for rescue.

          I bring you the miracle of the free market 🙂

          • Brett Dale 4.1.1.1.1

            ColoNial Viper:

            BLT sansdwiches are going up in price? GRRRRR

          • Puddleglum 4.1.1.1.2

            CV,  I hate to say this, but the logic of the market would still hold.

            It would very soon become obvious (information would be accurate and flow pretty rapidly, after all) that making BLT sandwiches was not the kind of production for which available resources could be switched to meet demand.

            That would mean another demand (e.g., ways of getting out of the mine) would become the focus of resources, and production would shift that way. The market may not last very long (as the last BLT nibble – which would probably become the ‘currency’ – goes gutwards) but a market may well make sure the last food went to the person with the best chance of providing the exit strategy for all – e.g., a chemistry hobbyist or economist turned garden shed engineer. But that doesn’t mean anyone will get out of the mine.

            As I understand it, markets don’t guarantee outcomes – they just respond to the greatest demand for resources and supposedly provide the ‘best bet’ for the desired (short term) outcomes. 

            Where the analogy does work, however, is that the market can very well lead us merrily into the closed off mine in the first place – but its principles would continue to work efficiently right till the last smug breath was drawn by the last surviving economist. 

            Schelling’s ‘Micromotives and Macrobehavior‘ makes a good case for the possibility of outcomes at the macro level – that no individual might actually desire – arising from the micro-level motives of people (especially acting in markets – e.g., resulting in racially segregated neighbourhoods).

            He got the Nobel prize in Economics for that kind of insight yet, for me, it’s like a big, flashing sign saying ‘beware of markets – they can give you what you don’t wish for’ – like being stuck in a goldmine with nothing to eat (a bit like today’s world for a significant number of people).

            • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.2.1

              ‘beware of markets – they can give you what you don’t wish for’

              Irrationality of the free-market

              It’s true and anyone who actually applies logic to it must realise that it is so. The market works at the micro level but fails at the macro level and yet our economists and politicians continue to try to apply it at the macro level and then become surprised when it fails.

      • Vicky32 4.1.2

        😀 Colonial Viper…

  5. aerobubble 5

    so i have to tell my neighbor of my camera pointing into their backyard,
    under the privacy act, but the state soesn’t need a warrent to do the
    exact same thing, go figure?

  6. Top ten google searches for New Zealand in the past seven days.
    Take that NZRFU, go the Warriors.
    http://www.google.com/insights/search/#geo=NZ&date=today+7-d&cmpt=q&q=%22google+plus%22
    1 nrl grand final +1,000%
    2. google plus +400%
    3. x factor +400%
    4. grabaseat +150%
    5. nz time +150%
    6. daylight savings +120%
    7. nrl +100%
    8. warriors +100%
    9. companies office +90%
    10. grab a seat

    • Enough is Enough 6.1

      Will the viewing figures top the Opening Night of the RWC. Thats the test Brett.

      I think it is great that Kiwi’s have two teams to support at the moment. There seems to be a bounce around town. We call forget about the economic gloom for a change.

    • Joe Bloggs 6.2

      I see Owen Glenn’s been doing due diligence on the Warriors.

      Applying Fenton’s First Law, can we expect Labour to call for a total boycott on watching the Warriors, if the sale to Owen Glenn goes ahead?

    • Vicky32 6.3

      Top ten google searches for New Zealand in the past seven days.

      How deeply depressing… It just confirms the idea I have had for many years (first shown by a useless ex-husband) that New Zealanders are generally rugby boofhead morons! Thankfully, I know that’s not true of all of them.)

  7. Wayne91 7

    Brett Dale – yes go the mighty Warriors and go the All Blacks – this is a fantastic Rugby World Cup

    • millsy 7.1

      Comparisons with 1956 are apt here. Go and find an old timer and ask him what the atmosphere was like during the 1956 tour. He’ll pretty much tell you it was the same as it is during RWC 2011, but with a bit more sophistication in terms of the bar and eatery scene.

  8. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8

    Pagani on the Urewera thing:

    http://johnpagani.posterous.com/call-of-duty

    “Were you part of the molotov throwing, semiautomatic firing group, or not? You cannot purport to be an anti war activist when you are throwing molotov cocktails.”

    • Joe Bloggs 8.1

      Yup I’m calling Pagani out on this.

      Sucking up to the police. Big time. I’m never going near him again.

      He’s gone way out on a limb. It’s all about consumer choice. We don’t need sycophants like that…I’ll be buying my meat from another butcher now

  9. Steven Joyce… Failure!

    You may not be aware that we even have a Minister of Communications. It wouldn’t help much if you happen to use networking programs either… as the minister doesn’t have any online presence…

  10. millsy 10

    It get worse in the HCC. Not content with cutting funding for community groups and NGO’s, it plans to take an axe to parks and reserves, and hike rents at its pensioner housing by 70% (or flog the unit off to the highest bidder).

    Its offical. Julie Hardaker is New Zealand’s Michelle Bachmann.

    • Scotty 11.1

      Rev ,to me it looks like approx 20,000,000 cubic meters of air, being forced out of the building by approx 300,000 T of concrete and steel in 15 secs.

      • McFlock 11.1.1

        But Scotty, you cannae break the laws of physics!

      • travellerev 11.1.2

        Scotty,
        The time of each collapse was indeed 14-16 seconds. 180 floors collapsed in 15 seconds. Do you believe it pancaked? Here is a law of physics which can not be broken. It’s called the conservation of energy.
        If you watch the video you see these big black lumps shooting out from the building. Those are tons of steel who for no apparent reason decide to fly sideways at 70 miles per hour. That energy has to come from somewhere. Gravity does not explain the energy required for these huge beams to go flying of horizontally.
        Here is another video with some strange movements of flying objects which can not be explained away by planes and gravity.
        By the way NIST has deserted the pancake theory. Molten aluminum and water does not explode and most certainly does not cause a building to explode nor does it generate the force needed to separate tons of steel into truck sized lots and buildings do not explode outwards in 15 seconds just because of a plane impact. The fuel was mostly burned off within seconds and people were shown as standing in the hole the plane made while not being burned and holding on to the steel frame. So where did the energy come from to explode huge beams outward with the speed of 70 miles per hour?
         
         

  11. higherstandard 12

    Interesting piece from John Pagani.

    http://johnpagani.posterous.com/call-of-duty

    • ianmac 12.1

      In itself making and throwing molotov cocktails into an old oven is not illegal I would have thought. (Years ago my brother tried putting lumps of carbide in a sealed bottle of water and watched it explode. He is a very peaceful chap.)
      Firing semi-automatic guns would be akin to the sort of people who enjoy paintball wars.
      On the face of the information given there is still not proof of crime (unless those guns are illegal.)
      Not making excuses and would hate to live near anyone who carried out those activities, but……

      • Anne 12.1.1

        Years ago a (then) teenage brother along with a mate tried to blow up a bridge in Milford, North Shore. He became a successful businessman.

        • lprent 12.1.1.1

          Mine was depth charges and rockets. Had quite a lot of fun making explosives. Of course after you get to play with plastic explosives you suddenly realize how ‘messy’ my home made stuff was. I really loved being able to carve my initials into Armour of an old bren gun carrier.

          • thejackal 12.1.1.1.1

            I never graduated from the home made stuff that went pop. After meeting a guy who had blown his arm off, I kind of lost interest in the hobby.

      • Joe Bloggs 12.1.2

        sharp observation IM – I particularly like the way that your logic reduces the whole Middle East conflict thingy to a large paint-ball war

      • davidc 12.1.3

        None of the 18 had a “E” endorsement so all of the semi autos were illegal to possess.

    • The Voice of Reason 12.2

      Indeed it is interesting, HS. I quite like Pagani’s blog, even though I don’t always agree with him. This time he has got it spot on, though.
       
      What a bunch of dreamers and tossers it turns out these people are. Reminds me of the sort of macho ‘defence of the homeland’ fantasies we normally associate with the likes of KKKyle Chapman. It’s a damn shame the coppers stuffed this up, because this lot should be explaining themselves in court, not excusing themselves on blogs.
       
      ps I see OOBB beat us to it, comment 8 above.
       
       

    • McFlock 12.3

      I dunno. There goes a chap who never had fun with things that go “bang”, even if the police “evidence” is as clear cut as they would have us believe.

      • Vicky32 12.3.1

        I dunno. There goes a chap who never had fun with things that go “bang”, even if the police “evidence” is as clear cut as they would have us believe.

        As a girl, with bad eyesight and only one brother (much younger) I never was a fan of things that go bang. My Dad who suffered from what I know now was PTSD, had an arsenal in the house, and was obsessed with the fear of invasion (he’d ‘fought all through t’second world war, and so taught we girls to fire guns – or tried to.)
        So, my feeling is with Pagani on this. My Dad was prosecuted for his arsenal, and ended up in dire straits (I won’t go into it all, just to say that the authorities were less than understanding!). So I am not sympathetic, which is not to say that I support prosecution on illegally gained evidence…

        • lprent 12.3.1.1

          I have no real problem with persecuting based on actual unequivocal evidence about acts and intent.

          What I have a problem with is the police charging on what looks like quite circumstantial equivocal evidence (like similar clothing) for actions that are not in themselves unlawful, on the basis of a criminal intent that they have no actual proof of beyond what looks like people blatting the breeze. I really get irritated that it has taken more than 4 years to not get to trial because the police were so damn sloppy that they relied on unlawfully gathered evidence.

          Quite simply I think that the police who brought caused this travesty of a misuse of their powers should be kicked out of the force and a severe look taken at how in the hell their superiors allowed it to happen.

          Incidentally I know exactly how you feel. There was a family friend who always kind of got me giving him second looks. It was the arsenal of obsolete military hardware like missile launcher outside his house. But he was mostly legal…

        • Draco T Bastard 12.3.1.2

          My Dad who suffered from what I know now was PTSD…

          Yeah, so did mine, but he didn’t have an arsenal – he took us boating instead. My father had a love planes (which is why he joined the RAF when war started) and a love of boats.

          • Vicky32 12.3.1.2.1

            Yeah, so did mine, but he didn’t have an arsenal – he took us boating instead

            That would have been a lot better! My Dad was convinced that WW3 would happen in his lifetime, and we’d have to fight off invaders… Hence the self-sufficient lifestyle (growing all our own food, candles and gas stoves etc) and the shooting lessons.)
            I still loathe guns to this day as a result. If by some bizarre chance, we were invaded, I could never shoot anyone…

    • Draco T Bastard 12.4

      Being a peacenik means that you can’t learn to defend yourself from those who aren’t?

  12. ianmac 13

    A compelling fullsome report on the idiocy of the Surveillance Bill. A must read.
    “The Law Society has attacked the government’s plan to pass extraordinary and objectionable surveillance legislation.”
    http://www.imperatorfish.com/2011/09/law-society-slams-police-spying-bill.html?showComment=1317249849178#c5726233854666049514

  13. NZ Herald Complaint

    What really pisses me off about all this is that the cops are continually speculating on things without much evidence and some of the evidence they do have was illegally obtained. The entire case is farcical!

    • McFlock 14.1

      Oh please, Jackal, it’s not like the police have an active media management / pr section – oh, wait…

  14. Treetop 15

    I have had the misfortune of dealing with incompetent cops for 35 years. I was dragged into a situation due to a CIB inquisition in 1979 which pertained to an inquiry involving a politician in 1976. I was silenced and bullied by the police.

    In order for me to RECEIVE any justice by the police an inquiry would need to be held and only Key or Marshall have the power for this to occur. I would expose the police for misleading the last three ministers of police, for not adequately investigating my concerns, for making defamatory remarks on many occasions and for the loss of police documentation/files as well as with holding the full police evidence concerning the politician who was denied legal representation.

    Basically the politician gave four reasons for the incident with the cop. But the cop has given three different reasons for why he had me silenced and bullied because he told me of the incident with the politician before the incident was raised in parliament. Issues with the cop having name suppression which I did not know about for sometime and the CIB inquisition triggering historical sexual offending. The inquiry was about whether police breached the incident.

    My observation yesterday regarding a 10 second view on the news with Marshall, Drew and Hide was this:
    Drew was area commander in the Wairarapa, we have not heard back yet from the IPCA on whether or not Drew is responsible for child sexual violation cases languishing. (At some point Marshall was involved in the back log of the Wairarapa cases and has fobbed off being directly responsible). Police say they need more tools but appear to not be able to organise something as important as legally using video surveillance and then they cry and say we want to prevent crime. Hide got it right when he implied that the police knew what they were doing was illegal.

    About time that a Police Commissioner grows some balls and takes responsibility for MAJOR WEAKNESS within the police because Broad’s legacy was bad enough with C.R Rickards, sexual assaults on children (Wairarapa) and adults (by sworn police officers) and people like Patrick O’ Brien languishing concerning wanting to expose the police and to hold them to account. I predicted prior to Marshall taking up the post as commissioner of police that Marshall would be drawn into the Urewera raids. Even I did not foresee how compromised Marshall would be due to bozo Broad.

    I am a lone voice in the wilderness but I have balls of steel. I have had first class teachers (been a student for 35 years regarding devious cops). When I hear about major stuff ups by the police it only intensifies and prolongs the complex form of PTSD I have.

  15. Asshole of the Week Award – Keith Abbott

    I sometimes wonder if the Police give a damn at all about what the public thinks… They stumble along from one PR disaster to another showing very little thought for the consequences of their actions…

    • The Voice of Reason 16.1

      I like the Burroughs quote, Jackal. Mind you I like all Old Bill Lee’s quotes, including the one about society hating functioning junkies because it spoils the argument for the war on drugs.
       
      I also find this line interesting:
       
      “People simply don’t accept that because Abbott wasn’t convicted, he isn’t guilty”
       
      Do you also apply that reasoning to the wannabes running around the Ureweras with guns?

      • McFlock 16.1.1

        lol

      • thejackal 16.1.2

        Should read many people… have fixed it.

        Do you mean all those hunters who are after some grub and don’t have gun licenses? I can’t think why the cases are similar… the Urewera 18 haven’t killed anybody.

        • higherstandard 16.1.2.1

          Not going to be much left of that grub after you’ve shot it with a semi-automatic and molotov cocktailed it.

          I suppose it’s a method for simultaneous cook and kill though – perhaps that’s what Valeri Morse was is practicing when she torches the NZ flag each ANZAC day.

          • thejackal 16.1.2.1.1

            My word, this issue really gets people on edge. What Molotov’s and what semi-automatic weapons? Do you know what a semi-automatic weapon is?

            Don’t tell me you actually believe that NZ Herald article HS… I thought you had a bit more nous than that?

            • higherstandard 16.1.2.1.1.1

              Well it would be nice to see the footage of what was going on.

              Anyhoo must I still admit to finding it odd that one needs to firebomb game.

              And as for nous shouldn’t you be directing that slur to the good Mr Pagani ?

              • Ianupnorth

                I thought they had a CD of gun shot sounds – I once had an album of BBC sound effects; can I charge the person in charge of making hoof sounds with coconut shells?

                • higherstandard

                  “I once had an album of BBC sound effects; ”

                  Oh dear you sound like you were more of a nerd (didn’t think it possible) than me in your younger days….. although my younger days predate CDs somewhat.

                  • thejackal

                    I still have a tape with BBC sound effects.

                    What’s up with editing the sounds anyway… perhaps the cops are attempting to get the gunshots closer together so they sound like a semi? Either way it proves nothing!

                    Firebomb game HS? There’s still no clear proof that they were even using Molotov cocktails, which isn’t a crime I might add.

                    • higherstandard

                      Feck it really is quite amusing to see you trying to defend this lot.

                      S’pose it comes down to whether you think this is a reasonable thing for ‘adults” to be up to and if it is reasonable and it was merely a harmless get together for a bit of hunting practice why the need to withhold the videos – surely the defendants would be more than happy for the video footage to be made public or the very least be made available in court to vindicate their jolly japes.

                • insider

                  Yikes. I had that album too or one in the series. Lots of horror sounds from memory. Squelching and twisting necks

    • lprent 16.2

      Basically they do not. The police are thoroughly independent of any significant oversight

  16. Treetop 18

    Oh Jackal the police give a dam about being caught, but they know that 99 % of individuals do not have the resources or influence to take out a civil case. This is why the government has to order an independent inquiry.

    If the commissioner of police gave a dam about what the public think about crooked cop practices he would order an inquiry.

  17. prism 19

    In Open Mike yesterday I commented on a talk by Dick Smith and gave the basic link for it.. It was from May this year but not outdated. I have remembered that he referred to Oz news media being about 70% controlled by Rupert Murdoch who he said, is growth oriented and so dos not want to follow any other thinking or viewpoints. He criticises capitalism which DTB would affirm.

  18. Cloaca 20

    What about TVNZ changing Coro Street to children’s tv time, and sanitising it.
    Forget the Uruweras crap, Rugby World Cup, BLT sandwiches and other insignificant irrelevances.
    Who wants more Masterchief at prime time. Will the overpaid PHD’s at TVNZ ever learn it’s the customer, not what they want. The Helen Clark era is dead – but mummy still knows best it appears.

    • Vicky32 20.1

      What about TVNZ changing Coro Street to children’s tv time, and sanitising it.

      It’s not that I am serious Coro fan (I do watch it, but not fanatically), but what irked me, was the programmers’ comments – that the olds who watch Coro could watch at 5.30, or watch the omnibus on Saturday. What about Coro fans who are not olds? I like to work, and can’t get home by 5.30, and who on earth watches TV on a Saturday morning?

  19. Misanthropic Curmudgeon 21

    The passing of the VSM bill is great news for those interested in freedom and social justice, as the bill in line with UN’s Declaration on Human Rights, which guarantees rights of association and non-association.

    ‘Free at last, free at last
    Thank God almighty
    We are free at last’

    Yesterday is a day that will be seen on a par with emancipation and women’s suffrage, and those who opposed this bill will be looked on as the oppressors of freedom that they are.

    • McFlock 21.1

      Yep – Roger Douglas is NZ’s very own Nelson Mandela. /sarc
        
      “Oppressors”? You merely demonstrate, yet again, that ACToids have no sense of perspective at all. E.g: everyone in a students’ association got a vote, and all stdents got to vote on membership rules. This is not the same as half the population not having the vote. Actually, a better analogy would be saying that everyone in NZ should choose whether they get all the benefits of NZ citizenship/residency, or whether they get pretty much all the benefits of NZ citizenship/residency but pay no tax – regardless of the wishes of the rest of NZ.
        
      Yesterday was a great day for dictatorship and propoganda, but a shit day for students and freedom in general.
       
       

  20. lprent 22

    Just in case it doesn’t survive there. I put this on Pagani’s site on his rather stupid post about the operation 8 court documents.

    Hey John – as a lefty I think you simply had a rather sheltered and unadventurous upbringing.

    I used semi automatics on the farm when I was a kid (and bolt-actions and shotguns). Making molotov cocktails would have been too easy. I used to make explosives for rocketry and for the sheer hell of making things explode. Not to mention building electric detonators to find out how it was done.

    I did all that before I went into the army at 18 and started using military grade weapons and explosives. Then I did a science degree where I had even more fun.

    When I looked at these reports I thought that they were too unremarkable to get wound up about. I guess you wasted your youth if you think that anything revealed was terrorism.

    If they’d started accumulating ammunition stockpiles or large quantities of seed chemicals for explosives or war gases then I’d have been interested.

    But feel free to make a even bigger dickhead of yourself.

    • lprent 22.1

      Ummm can’t see it now. It is either moderated out or trashed…..

      If it doesn’t come back, then I may extend it into a post.

    • higherstandard 22.2

      Perhaps you ran foul of his comments policy.

      “Anonymous comments don’t add much to the Internet.

      You can leave comments, but I moderate them hard.

      I use this blog to write about things that interest me. If comments aren’t interesting, they are not going on my blog.

      I encourage intelligent dispute and argument. If you feel like insulting me, there are a large number of places on the Internet where you can go to do that. If you want to insult others, than I encourage you to be funny, at least.

      Also, ‘x said y so therefore x is a bad person’ may be the standard for commenting elsewhere, but not here.

      You can send an email to [email protected], and the machine will start a blog for you just like that, where you can say what you like. If you are interesting I might link to you.”

      Yep looks like you ticked most of those boxes.

      • lprent 22.2.1

        Nope. Wasn’t anonymous, and I only called him a “dickhead” – which is as you know is rather mild for me, and I think it was in context…

        He did e-mail back. But since he’d asked for posts on the subject, I gave him one. Of course it wasn’t exactly what he was probably after…

    • The Voice of Reason 22.3

      Jeez, Lprent, you’re way off the beam on this. These sad fucks were practising at being guerillas and some, at least, were apparently trying to learn how to kill people by throwing bombs through windows. They should be in jail. There is no excuse for this immature behaviour and it is now pretty clear that the raids were entirely justified, even if the cops cannot now use all the evidence gathered. What a bunch of gutless, whining cowards and thank fuck they were stopped before they killed someone.

      • clandestino 22.3.1

        Eh??!?!!?

        A bunch of boys playing at being soldier in the bush! Terrorists??? Training to ‘kill people’, as you imply????

        You must have had a sad childhood indeed. Not so long ago, we used to buy sparklers from the Warehouse, tape them together and blow up rubbish bins along the Wellington waterfront and out the suburbs.

        Should we be in jail for being young and immature, but essentially harmless? Those bombs were definitely classed as dangerous, and restrictions were put in place on them.

        I have serious problems with people like you trying to turn this country into a police state and stifling people and punishing thousands disproportionately with no discretion.

        It will alienate people and result in more discontent.

        It’s pretty Orwellian to punish for something you think they ‘might’ do. It’s a bit like invading Afghanistan to defend NZ…a sane, rational person doesn’t see the link.

        I suggest you reassess this and think about whether it’s your paranoia or deluded thinking, or whether these people were planning an all out guerrilla war. Think of it as you think of 9/11 ‘truthers’, come on, which is the more likely?

        • The Voice of Reason 22.3.1.1

          I didn’t use the word terrorist, Clandistino. I said guerillas. But these twats only have Che’s Tshirt, not his nous. I don’t care whether they were planning an all out war or just being muppets, but their immaturity has cost us all a right and a freedom. As a result of their stupidity, the police are soon going to able film us all whenever and however they feel like it. And I’m really pissed off about this because they have consistently said that there was nothing of substance to the police claims, but now it turns out the cops were right all along and the Urewera loons were lying to us all.
           
          As I said above, I’m just pleased there was an intervention before someone got killed, though I suppose there was more likelihood of them shooting themselves than mounting a credible attack on some poor sod whose politics they didn’t like. Hmmm, anyone seen Four Lions?

          • clandestino 22.3.1.1.1

            It kind of fucks your argument that you agree they were not a credible threat, don’t ya think??

            Don’t believe the bullshit they come out with about how they have ‘evidence’ of plans to attack anyone. It’s called fucking BANTER and we are (mostly) all guilty of it every blimmin day!

      • lprent 22.3.2

        TVOR: I have been on management ‘team’ exercises that, from the evidence I have seen, went further into the required training than what went on in the targets of Operation 8. I don’t see those camps being shut down – do you?

        For that matter, Gilchrist – the police spy who was rocky’s partner and whom she exposed, was running management training camps that did exactly this type of military style camp quite legally for those managers.

        Now I’ve done military training, management training, know a lot about the law (I had to suffer through my ex’s law) and I read a hell of a lot of material that is military history including insurgencies. I also know a lot of activists and most of them are to my mind extremely legal. There are a few bullshitters, but most of them appear to try to keep on the right side of the legal system.

        As far as I’m concerned, the really dangerous people in operation 8 appear to be the paranoids in the police building in Otahuhu. Stupid acts like this exercise appear to be more driven by creating dangerous activism than preventing it.

        • The Voice of Reason 22.3.2.1

          Been away and I see there is another related post now, so I guess I might have more to say there.
           
          However, yes, I have seen military style camps shut down. You’ll recall the NZ Army was snapped running shoot ’em up days on the side a couple of years ago and they got shut down pronto. Sometimes it’s just not appropriate, eh.
           
          And I bet that flea Gilchrist did not teach the suits how to chuck molotov’s on those courses either. But that’s not the point. This was military training for a political purpose. And have we forgotten where arming politically motivated people can take us?

    • thejackal 22.4

      Were you part of the molotov throwing, semiautomatic firing group, or not? You cannot purport to be an anti war activist when you are throwing molotov cocktails.

      Jesus! What a plonker! When I was younger, we used to make bombs out of fireworks and let them off down at the beach. We used to make our own guns etc for something to do. We also used real guns with adult supervision… and shock horror non of us kids had licenses. That’s how I learnt to hunt at the age of seven. People like Pagani must have grown up mollycoddled in cotton wool to not realize that thousands of New Zealand kids do this sort of thing.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 22.4.1

        When I was younger, we used to make bombs out of fireworks and let them off down at the beach. We used to make our own guns etc for something to do. We also used real guns with adult supervision…

        OK. Your misanthropic streak is starting to make sense.

        • thejackal 22.4.1.1

          FFS! I wasn’t doing it to prepare to hurt anybody gormless!

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 22.4.1.1.1

            How old were you?

            • McFlock 22.4.1.1.1.1

              What has that got to do with anything?
              Next they’ll be raiding capoeira classes because everyone there is “learning how to kill”.

              • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                I enquire because thejackal made something of the fact that he was “younger”, presumably to explain his love of blowing things up as youthful exuberance, or something.

                Valerie Morse is a 36 year old librarian.

                Bit old to be blowing things up for fun, don’t you think?

                • McFlock

                  Why? Ever been to a fireworks display? It’s not just kids in the audience.

                  Again, I know martial artists older than that. Should they all be illegally filmed and held at gunpoint?

                  • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                    That’s right, McFlock. Running around in the bush lobbing molotov cocktails left, right and centre is just like setting off a catherine wheel for the kids.

                    I think the woman’s reluctance to offer an innocent explanation speaks volumes about her motives.

                    • lprent

                      Ummm, from the police evidence it looks like the alleged molotov cocktails were done in a single place. Lemme see what is online – I seem to have seen something..

                      Det Sgt Pascoe was to give evidence that he believed she threw the Molotov cocktail into an outdoor oven, where police later found remnants of Molotov cocktails.

                      It doesn’t look like you are being even a teeny bit accurate. In fact reading what the the police have said (rather than your levels of fiction) it seems like the range area was not dangerous.

                      Tell me again why I called you a gormless fool?

                    • McFlock

                      I think that your insistence people should prove their innocence just shows the totalitarianism that lurks beneath the tory surface.

                    • lprent

                      She will have been advised by her lawyers not to say anything. Apart from anything else if I was her, I’d be in the midst of preparing a civil case against the police and against some individual police.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Bit old to be blowing things up for fun, don’t you think?

                  Pretty sure half the SAS soldiers we have in Afghanistan are around that age or older.

                  • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                    lprent, you are right of course, this whole thing turns on how widely the molotov cocktails (yes, molotov cocktails) were thrown. If she was throwing them in a narrow area everything is just peachy because she was clearly throwing them for the amusement of small children whose love of violent explosions and firearms is both legendary and to be encouraged.

                    • McFlock

                      Let’s see, the article lprent linked to above said […]”holding an object believed to be a Molotov cocktail.
                      Det Sgt Pascoe was to give evidence that he believed she threw the Molotov cocktail into an outdoor oven, where police later found remnants of Molotov cocktails. ”

                      So – they have a burned out oven with glass in it. They have a photo of someone who might or might not be Morse holding a molotov bottle. Maybe even throwing it in the direction of the oven (but no explosion etc on camera). 
                       
                      Yep, let’s lock away the key.

                    • lprent

                      Not really. The biggest issue for the police would have been to prove that she was doing it – something that they clearly had little direct evidence for since they were relying on evidence of similar clothing.

                      The second would have been to prove that the activity was unlawful. Now that isn’t as easy as you’d probably like to guess because I don’t think that there are any that many laws against lighting fires on private land in a old fridge (regardless of the means). In much the same way as there aren’t that many laws against having old fridges, burning old fence posts, or indeed most activities.

                      As I was pointing out in the post the police would have to prove a criminal intent. So far they have singularly failed to even get close to it outside of the fevered imagination of Aaron Pascoe and the presumptive judgement of Pagani.

            • higherstandard 22.4.1.1.1.2

              Judging by his blog he must have been playing with guns as a foetus because no-one over the age of three could write the shite that he does.

              Either that or it’s all puff and bluster like his delusions of being a bit of a ladies man.

              • thejackal

                What are you talking about? Calling HS… Come back to planet earth.

                • Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                  Except, Lprent, she does not even deny it.

                  • Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                    BTW, I seem to recall Bomber Bradbury (remind me why the only the right are called out for using violent language?) having a lot to say about how shocking the actions of these delightful people were at the time of the raids. Has he resiled from that or does lprent need to give him a slap?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Superb, OBB taking silence as an indication of guilt.

                    Who’d you study law from, Dick Cheney?

                    • Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                      There’s silence and then there’s going out of your way not to try to offer a rational explanation for throwing molotov cocktails around.

                  • lprent

                    She are you saying that she has confirmed it? Point to where she does…

                    She is under no obligation to confirm or deny that except in court if and only if she takes the stand and sits under oath. Doing it for your prurient interest is probably no high on her list of things to do.

                    But lets start with you under the same basis. I hereby say that you are a wanker – do you wish to confirm or deny that? And I have about 50 more questions of an increasingly severe nature that you remaining silent on will just confirm your guilt.

                    Basically that is not an argument by you. It is an excuse for your gormless foolish behavior

                    • higherstandard

                      I would have thought she would have had an absolute defense if she was not in the Urewera’s – I s’pose she could have decided not to mount a defense to get as much to moan and bitch about for her ongoing campaign against ‘the man’.

                      Personally I find it disappointing no one knobbled the silly bint during her ANZAC day flag burning.

                    • lprent []

                      Talk about a side-issue.

                      But you mean the flag burning that the court decided was not unlawful and not dangerous (as I seem to remember that was the decision) ? The decision that really brings into question the silliness of the police in bringing forward a case that they were unlikely to convict on?

                      In fact just like the current case.

                    • lprent []

                      She probably was somewhere, there or elsewhere. The question in that case is probably proving it absolutely.

                      I really couldn’t prove where I am absolutely anytime when I’m not at work. I’m always amused when people look at electronic records as proof because after doing work for the payments industry and thinking about how others could spoof our systems, it all becomes a matter of cost and effort.

                      But the question for the police even with the unlawfully obtained evidence would have been to prove that their accusations were correct.

                      Standing rule for any activist usually is that if the police wish to charge you, then they should have to prove their accusation. Typically they are unable to convict.

                      In rocky’s case she has literally had dozens of charges against her. She has defended them all, and they only managed to convict her without being overturned on appeal once because the police kept postponing the trial until she was unable to keep having defense witnesses or herself attending court. For the same reason she was unable to take it to appeal.

                      That is the standard that some of these police descend to….. Some of the charges were about as useful as the flag burning. “Intimidation by loitering”, “using a megaphone” is a favorite, etc etc

                    • Oleolebiscuitbarrell

                      I hereby say that you are a wanker – do you wish to confirm or deny that.

                      I confirm it. It is a beautiful act of love.

                      When will you start asking me about the violence I have committed?

                    • lprent []

                      I think that you have assaulted someone…. and primary school and kindergarten count (since you don’t seem to be bothered about if a conviction is possible).

                    • higherstandard

                      Wasn’t the court decision not to convict due to no-one in the vicinity causing a disturbance – i’e if someone had been pissed off enough to clout her she would have been convicted for causing a disturbance ……. I may be wrong…… old age memory failing .. wine with dinner etc .

    • Treetop 22.5

      The moral high ground Paganai is using when it comes to being anti war and molotov cocktails reminds me of how a woman may be made to feel in a rape trial. Her sexual history is bared for all to examine, she then is on trial for her sexual history and being raped is considered as being probable or not probable even though consent was absent.

      Focus must be on the charge and not using moral high ground. Paganai needs to apologise for using a person’s personal beliefs and linking them to being charged with an alleged offence which is before the court.

      • Treetop 22.5.1

        22.5 “… which is before the court.” I over looked that Bailey (another female) is to stand trial and not Morse, however Morse could appear as a witness or could take out a civil case against the police.

    • insider 22.6

      Re stockpiling ammunition, apparantly they were

      • Adele 22.6.1

        From my understanding they were found with about 200 rounds of ammunition and about half a dozen firearms in various stages of useability. Knowing the socio-economic status of Māori, as I do, it probably took them over 10 years to amass this horde of weaponry, and from Trademe.

        Your paranoia is fed by ignorance of the world outside of the bubble you occupy. Pop that cherry and explore the real New Zealand.

        • Colonial Viper 22.6.1.1

          From my understanding they were found with about 200 rounds of ammunition and about half a dozen firearms in various stages of useability.

          Anyone who has been farming for longer than 2 seconds typically has anywhere between 10-20 serviceable firearms (from .22’s all the way through to various shotguns) and a thousand plus rounds of ammo for said firearms.

      • Adele 22.6.2

        Insider

        From my understanding they were found with about 200 rounds of ammunition and about half a dozen firearms in various stages of useability. Knowing the socio-economic status of Māori, as I do, it probably took them over 10 years to amass this horde of weaponry, and from Trademe.

        Your paranoia is fed by ignorance of the world outside of the bubble you occupy. Why don’t you pop that cherry and explore the real New Zealand.

      • Zetetic 22.6.3

        yeah, right.

        Who said that?

        Oh, yeah, the police. Whose charges have been thrown out again and again.

        What interests me is how the Police are now denying the remaining accused a fair trial by leaking this stuff to the media. They must know what they’re doing. Seems like pure vengeance. And an admission they have no case.

      • Treetop 22.6.4

        Insider I was being specific about Morse. The Supreme Court has ruled that video camera surveillance is not admissable where she is concerned.

        Go and Google what Ross Meurant says about cops and the forest. I learnt at age 16 about how cops were. I worked at a police barracks and accommodation was supplied due to the three split shifts.

        • Treetop 22.6.4.1

          Can’t supply a link but try Deep in the forest: Ross Meurant – Sunday Star – Times

          Meurant is honest about how cops are conditioned to tow the line when it comes to them and us.

          I have a general distrust where cops are concerned but there are some honest ones. The longer service or the higher rank are usually the worst. A lot of the good ones get out due to knowing that they cover for their mates, have assaulted people they apprehend and know that they are there to serve and protect the public and not themselves.

  21. DOC was Bribed

    A few days ago the Otago Daily Times reported that the Department of Conservation will receive $100,000 from gold-miner Oceana Gold in return for taking a neutral stance on an application to expand the East Otago gold mine. This is a blatant bribe as DOC had already made its position known…

  22. Anne 24

    Do the Nats need to bother with asset sales to foreign owned companies with this goon around?
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/5704264/Owen-Glenn-linked-with-Warriors-buyout

    First he tries to buy his popularity and get his name up in lights, now he’s going to try and buy up NZ starting with the top sporting teams. Key and Glenn make a good pair of sociopaths!

    • higherstandard 24.1

      Why is he a goon Anne ?

      Is it just because he dared tell the truth about Winnie and put your beloved Labour party in an embarrassing position ?

      Is it because of his charitable donations and philanthropy ?

      Do tell.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 24.1.1

        I think Anne believes that the Warriors is presently an SOE.

    • Joe Bloggs 24.2

      Anne, wakey, wakey, that was covered at 6.2 above.

      However just in case you missed it … applying Fenton’s First Law, can we expect Labour to call for a total boycott on watching the Warriors, if the sale to Owen Glenn goes ahead?

  23. Joe Bloggs 25

    Speaking of Gormless Fools – no personal reflections TGFKAO – when will Charles Chauvel withdraw his crap press release:

    A report showing air pollution in Auckland is double that of Sydney’s and on a par with Tokyo’s is another blot on National’s ever-expanding not very environmental copybook, Labour’s Environment spokesperson Charles Chauvel says.

    World Health Organisation data out today reveals New Zealand cities trail all major Australian cities in terms of air quality, with Auckland the worst.

    “Our largest city is just now getting a glimpse of the real cost of Steven Joyce’s anti-rail, more roads-at-all-cost policies – increased air pollution,” Charles Chauvel said.

    Epic fail Charles Chauvel says!

    Turns out the WHO report is almost as full of hot air as Labour’s policy cupboard. The report’s been pulled and a new set of numbers posted that show all main centres are within WHO safety guidelines.

    Look’s like the real cost of Joyces anti-rail, more-roads-at-all-costs policies is – clean air!

    Charles Chauvel says? A PR disaster!

    • Draco T Bastard 25.1

      Oh noes, the WHO made a mistake.

      Now, does that actually undermine the ACC report that indicates that 700 people per year are dying to air pollution in Auckland? No, it doesn’t. Nor does it excuse Nationals drive to increase that pollution and death by putting in roads most of Auckland don’t want.

      • insider 25.1.1

        Well only four years ago it was 900 deaths for the whole country and pollution levels have remained static if not dropped since then. The acc report is based on 2006 data. That to me undermines it a tad…

        • Draco T Bastard 25.1.1.1

          Still doesn’t undermine the report considering that the conclusion would be based on probabilities defined by years of research around the world, ie, population thus, pollution thus, estimated level of premature deaths caused by pollution approximately this. It’ll be fairly close even if it was based on 2006 data. Pollution levels may have remained static but population hasn’t, especially Auckland, and the estimates probably have probably changed as well.

    • Ianupnorth 25.2

      Oh, an MP that admits a mistake, now there’s a thing; still waiting for Key to admit his stuff ups; I anticipate a long wait as he has yet to retract any of his lies.

      • higherstandard 25.2.1

        Yeah it is a rare thing indeed was perhaps one of Helen’s greatest weaknesses.

        I reckon the public warm to politicians who admit they f’up and I’m surprised they don’t do mea culpas more often.

      • Joe Bloggs 25.2.2

        So you want to play dodgeball, huh, Ian?

        Of course Charles won’t recant – it’s not in his nature and it’s not in the nature of the party he represents. Much easier to blame the whole thing on some dastardly right wing plot.

        • insider 25.2.2.1

          To be fair to chauvel, he was using data from a reputable source that he had no reason to doubt. Who have admitted the flaw so it’s a bit pointless doing a retraction now

  24. Paul 26

    [lprent: Dumping identical comments across posts just pisses off moderators. ]

  25. prism 27

    Intermittent signal September 2011/7 (last 15/9)
    There was a great interview today about helping parents with their onerous tasks, something I
    believe is vital and needs to happen. So there are positives coming through the fog of unpleasant news that we shouldn’t overlook.

    On 9 to Noon today – Parenting with Matthew Sanders
    Professor of parenting studies at the University of Auckland and University of Queensland. He was co-investigator of a major study carried out in South Carolina which found that there were lower rates of confirmed abuse cases, child out-of-home placements, and hospitalisations and emergency room visits for child injuries in countries where parenting support was implemented. (17′30″)
    Download: Ogg Vorbis MP3 | Embed
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2499133/parenting-with-matthew-sanders.asx

    And it sounds as if its being done with no patronising or authoritarian attitudes to parents either.

  26. eurozone 28

    There is a Telecom roadshow at lunchtime tomorrow — supposedly the biggest thing goin on in our market right now – which means this market sucks!!!!

    …… although there are some really good yields out there

  27. eurozone 29

    Ok – here are some NZ div yields

    Hallensteins 12%
    Telecom 12%
    Restaurant Brands 11.5%
    Methven 10%

    Not bad – assuming they don’t cut the divy

  28. John 30

    “The Herald is just now catching up with the online outrage against such a shallow and nasty attack against a Kiwi icon.” – Campbell Slater

    How can Slater look at himself in the mirror at night. “Shallow and Nasty” attacks are all he fucking does. He’s a clinical depressive who seems to think the only way he can be happy is have his daddy bankroll his unemployment by having a blog that is set up for him to tell the world how fucking much he hates it. “Shallow and Nasty” and Salter are the same thing.

    The Mad Butcher can fuck off, he knows what he was doing, stop licking Nationals balls , it makes your workingman brand look a joke. He plays in the media, that’s all he does, his butcheries went broke a long time ago and he doesn’t run them. He’s just the briscoe lady of cheap meat. Don’t play innocence. Leitch is just one of a long line of businessman who have opened butcheries in Auckland and like him, most fail and are bought out.

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